{"error":false,"id":["148903"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":148903,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/148903","日期":"2023-12-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-10-8-36-24","會議代碼:str":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","屆":10,"會期":8,"會次":24,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2023-12-07T09:14:13+08:00","結束時間":"2023-12-07T09:23:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:04","支援功能":["gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1488b65508d71c04d9b0b975a72c1e145de4c744a3d84f2dc986728e607a03220226e946d5867dbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"曾銘宗","委員發言時間":"09:14:13 - 09:23:17","會議時間":"2023-12-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查（一）委員黃世杰等16人、（二）委員游毓蘭等17人及（三）委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、併案審查（一）委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條條文修正草案」、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團及（三）委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法第三十六條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":190,"blocks":[["曾委員銘宗：（9時14分）好，謝謝召委，有關今天要審查的法案，本席大方向都支持。首先請教銓敘部朱次長。"],["朱次長楠賢：委員好。"],["曾委員銘宗：次長，有關公務人員退休年金的改革，你業務應該很熟吧？對不對？"],["朱次長楠賢：還好。"],["曾委員銘宗：還好啊？這麼謙虛啊！太謙虛了！上次整個公教退休年金的改革產生哪些效益？也產生了哪些後遺症？"],["朱次長楠賢：上次年金的改革基本上是為了健全財務，同時我們比照歐美各國退休的所得率，我們甚至超過百分之百，所以這個改革是一定要做的，因為各國像美國是55%、英國是50%，我們現在改革之後還有65到70左右，這個改革基本上是合理的，如果說我們債留子孫、世代轉移給下面去做，那個洞非常非常大，所以改革是必要的。"],["曾委員銘宗：你沒有針對我的問題答，我說到底有哪些效益、哪些後遺症？因為今天的召委很摳啦！時間只有給6分鐘，不然我要問到一個早上喔！針對問題。"],["朱次長楠賢：基本上新的年金制度讓財務可以永續經營，對以後擔任公務人員會比較好啦！那你說後遺症的話，基本上有些人可能覺得他將來要到65歲才能退休，這樣子待太久了，他可能就有考慮，這部分可能是這次為什麼報考人數比較少的原因。我在猜大家覺得從現在二十幾歲要做到65歲才能退，這部分是可能有的，但是也不能算是後遺症，就是產生這種現象。"],["曾委員銘宗：不是後遺症？這個還正面效益啊？次長。"],["朱次長楠賢：也不是，它就是一個現象，因為我們……"],["曾委員銘宗：現象？你輕忽這個現象耶！因為我看過你的資歷，你還長期在教育部門，你為國家人才引進，第一個，公務人員老化；第二個，很多人不願意參加政府的考試進到政府部門來，這怎麼會只是個現象？你這個政務官做得不錯，都不敢講真話！"],["朱次長楠賢：不是，基本上現在因為少子化，報名高普考的人數確實有減少。"],["曾委員銘宗：只有少子化嗎？"],["朱次長楠賢：當然就是年金改革對部分年輕人來說，覺得可能要做到65歲才能退，我剛剛報告的，他們覺得這個部分比較沒有辦法去想像還要做到那麼老，這是一個部分……"],["曾委員銘宗：好，後遺症就是公務人員整個老化的情況，會影響他的行為效率；第二個，優秀的年輕朋友不願意進到公務部門來服務，是重大的後遺症啊！","請教您在這一次公務人員年金改革的過程當中，有沒有哪一類人員是除外，沒有進行相關改革？"],["朱次長楠賢：這次年金改革影響最小應該是軍人。"],["曾委員銘宗：不是，你都沒有針對我問題答，哪一類的人員這次沒有改革到啦？"],["朱次長楠賢：沒有改革……"],["曾委員銘宗：還是你不知道？"],["朱次長楠賢：就是保障弱勢的啦！收入比較低的……"],["曾委員銘宗：不是、不是，我問哪一類人員在這次改革的時候除外？你不知道？"],["朱次長楠賢：委員，這個部分能不能……"],["曾委員銘宗：好，請司法院人事處長。"],["陳處長美彤：是，委員好。"],["曾委員銘宗：處長，這一次法官有沒有改革到？"],["陳處長美彤：報告委員，法官有改革到，因為法官的退休金就是跟一般公務員一樣，也就是跟著公務員退休資遣撫卹法……"],["曾委員銘宗：確定？"],["陳處長美彤：對啊！"],["曾委員銘宗：好，我請教你，現在一個法官退休金多少？"],["陳處長美彤：退休金大概就是要看他的年資跟他最後的……"],["曾委員銘宗：13、14職等法官退休，總數可以領到多少退休金？"],["陳處長美彤：報告委員，我們現在法官沒有職等，我們現在是用俸級，法官總共分24級，然後最資深的法官是第1級，第1級法官相當於……"],["曾委員銘宗：沒關係，有沒有比照一般公務員？我時間快到了。"],["陳處長美彤：大概是8萬多塊啦！"],["曾委員銘宗：多少？"],["陳處長美彤：8萬多塊，就是所得替代率也差不多就是剛才次長所提到的……"],["曾委員銘宗：總數呢？我是講總數，你不能講一部分。"],["陳處長美彤：對，法官的退休金之外，因為依照法官法，法官有一個退養金，司法官有退養金。"],["曾委員銘宗：那兩個加起來多少？"],["陳處長美彤：目前如果是1級800俸點退休的，大概差不多是17、18萬左右，但是他的所得替……"],["曾委員銘宗：17、18萬嘛！對不對？"],["陳處長美彤：對，他們17、18萬。"],["曾委員銘宗：為什麼這部分就沒改？為什麼一般事務官做到14職等，現在大概6萬多，次長，這個公不公平？"],["朱次長楠賢：制度不一樣啦。"],["曾委員銘宗：什麼制度不一樣？當時就把它切出去，就不改而已啊，什麼制度不一樣？"],["朱次長楠賢：他們有改……"],["曾委員銘宗：次長，我覺得你這個政務府官很稱職，都不講真話，都替執政黨在護航。"],["朱次長楠賢：不會啦。"],["曾委員銘宗：做得不錯，你這個政務官是標準的政務官，不講真話的政務官！我這樣的評論，你贊不贊成？"],["朱次長楠賢：我沒辦法贊成啦。"],["曾委員銘宗：事實啊！你都不講真話。"],["朱次長楠賢：有啦，我都講真話。"],["曾委員銘宗：我跟你講，一個法官不管叫退養金、退休金，18萬，行政機關的包括後面都是，做到14職等，包括你也一樣，退休金多少？你多少？"],["朱次長楠賢：我退休金大概6萬8,000元。"],["曾委員銘宗：對啊，6萬8,000元，這合不合理？法官是你的3倍啊，你這話還不敢講？"],["朱次長楠賢：制度不太一樣啦。"],["曾委員銘宗：哪個不一樣？你說。"],["朱次長楠賢：這個請司法院……"],["曾委員銘宗：不是，不是，你業務很熟，你講，哪個制度不一樣？司法院的人事處長。"],["陳處長美彤：報告委員，法官依照憲法保障是終身職，所以司法官包括檢察官也一樣，其實沒有退休的概念，不像公務員屆齡退休，65歲就一定要退。"],["曾委員銘宗：好，這個我贊成，但有必要是我們這個做得不錯的政務次長的3倍嗎？這樣合不合理？"],["陳處長美彤：報告委員，因為我剛剛不知道次長講的這個六萬多塊是不是沒有包含公保養老給付等等，我剛剛講的是總額，就是包括退休金、公保養老給付，還有其他的退撫給與，再加上司法官退養金，那是一個總數。"],["曾委員銘宗：他也講總數啊！他沒有講總數嗎？"],["陳處長美彤：因為退休金的那個……"],["曾委員銘宗：次長，你沒有講總數啊？"],["朱次長楠賢：那個是月退休俸。"],["曾委員銘宗：對啊！他也是月退休俸啊！"],["朱次長楠賢：他講那個公保養老給付，那是一次提領。"],["曾委員銘宗：那個多少錢？"],["朱次長楠賢：那個應該兩、三百萬啦。"],["曾委員銘宗：對啊！兩、三百萬。我只是說蔡政府做年金改革的時候，都把他不想改的切出去，次長，這樣合不合理？制度不一樣？"],["朱次長楠賢：制度不一樣，因為他本來是領終身俸的，沒有退休制度。"],["曾委員銘宗：好啦，逼你也沒有用啦，你是一個非常稱職、不講真話的政務官，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝曾銘宗總召。","接下來請鄭運鵬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-10-8-36-24","speakers":["林思銘","曾銘宗","鄭運鵬","江永昌","湯蕙禎","游毓蘭","王鴻薇","陳玉珍","劉建國","賴香伶","李德維","林淑芬","邱臣遠","謝衣鳯","吳琪銘"],"page_start":289,"meetingDate":["2023-12-07"],"gazette_id":"1129702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1129702_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第10屆第8會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳超明等22人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案；二、併案審查\n(一)委員黃世杰等16人、(二)委員游毓蘭等17人及(三)委員黃世杰等16人分別擬具「司法人員人\n事條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查(一)委員劉建國等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第十\n二條條文修正草案」、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團及(三)委員邱志偉等17人分別擬具「公教人員保險法\n第三十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1129702_00002"}},"transcript":{"gazette":[{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:15.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:20.988000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝召委，有關今天要審查的法案，本席大方向都支持。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:22.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:26.229000+08:00","text":"首先請教銓敘部朱次長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:26.229000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:27.229000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:26.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:34.951000+08:00","text":"次長，有關公務人員退休年金的改革，你業務應該很熟吧？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:35.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:36.331000+08:00","text":"對不對？還好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:36.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:36.972000+08:00","text":"還好啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:37.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:37.112000+08:00","text":"這麼謙虛啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:39.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:39.707000+08:00","text":"太謙虛了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:43.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:50.696000+08:00","text":"上次整個公教退休年金的改革產生哪些效益？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:51.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:14:52.998000+08:00","text":"也產生了哪些後遺症？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:14:56.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:15:29.354000+08:00","text":"上次年金的改革基本上是為了健全財務，同時我們比照歐美各國退休的所得率，我們甚至超過百分之百，所以這個改革是一定要做的，因為各國像美國是55%、英國是50%，我們現在改革之後還有65到70左右，這個改革基本上是合理的，如果說我們債留子孫、世代轉移給下面去做，那個洞非常非常大，所以改革是必要的。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:15:30.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:15:36.457000+08:00","text":"你沒有針對我的問題答，我說到底有哪些效益、哪些後遺症？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:15:36.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:15:39.238000+08:00","text":"因為今天的召委很摳啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:15:40.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:15:42.899000+08:00","text":"時間只有給6分鐘，不然我要問到一個早上喔！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:15:42.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:15:42.920000+08:00","text":"針對問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:15:44.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:15:55.426000+08:00","text":"基本上新的年金制度讓財務可以永續經營，對以後擔任公務人員會比較好啦！","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:15:56.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:16:14.312000+08:00","text":"那你說後遺症的話，基本上有些人可能覺得他將來要到65歲才能退休，這樣子待太久了，他可能就有考慮，這部分可能是這次為什麼報考人數比較少的原因。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:16:14.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:16:26.439000+08:00","text":"我在猜大家覺得從現在二十幾歲要做到65歲才能退，這部分是可能有的，但是也不能算是後遺症，就是產生這種現象。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:16:28.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:16:29.140000+08:00","text":"不是後遺症？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:16:30.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:16:32.182000+08:00","text":"這個還正面效益啊？次長。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:16:32.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:16:35.223000+08:00","text":"也不是，它就是一個現象，因為我們……現象？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:16:36.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:16:37.244000+08:00","text":"你輕忽這個現象耶！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:16:38.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:16:55.713000+08:00","text":"因為我看過你的資歷，你還長期在教育部門，你為國家人才引進，第一個，公務人員老化；第二個，很多人不願意參加政府的考試進到政府部門來，這怎麼會只是個現象？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:16:59.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:17:03.644000+08:00","text":"你這個政務官做得不錯，都不敢講真話！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:17:03.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:17:10.069000+08:00","text":"不是，基本上現在因為少子化，報名高普考的人數確實有減少。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:17:11.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:17:13.231000+08:00","text":"只有少子化嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:17:13.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:17:29.963000+08:00","text":"當然就是年金改革對部分年輕人來說，覺得可能要做到65歲才能退，我剛剛報告的，他們覺得這個部分比較沒有辦法去想像還要做到那麼老，這是一個部分……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:17:30.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:17:45.851000+08:00","text":"好，後遺症就是公務人員整個老化的情況，會影響他的行為效率；第二個，優秀的年輕朋友不願意進到公務部門來服務，是重大的後遺症啊！","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:17:47.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:17:59.226000+08:00","text":"請教您在這一次公務人員年金改革的過程當中，有沒有哪一類人員是除外，沒有進行相關改革？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:00.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:04.448000+08:00","text":"這次年金改革影響最小應該是軍人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:06.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:13.453000+08:00","text":"不是，你都沒有針對我問題答，哪一類的人員這次沒有改革到啦？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:13.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:16.817000+08:00","text":"沒有改革……","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:16.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:17.317000+08:00","text":"還是你不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:20.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:22.559000+08:00","text":"就是保障弱勢的啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:26.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:27.400000+08:00","text":"收入比較低的……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:27.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:34.323000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，我問哪一類人員在這次改革的時候除外？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:38.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:38.484000+08:00","text":"你不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:42.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:43.607000+08:00","text":"委員，這個部分能不能……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:43.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:45.770000+08:00","text":"好，請司法院人事處長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:45.770000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:46.770000+08:00","text":"是，委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:45.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:18:54.826000+08:00","text":"處長，這一次法官有沒有改革到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:18:56.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:05.941000+08:00","text":"報告委員，法官有改革到，因為法官的退休金就是跟一般公務員一樣，也就是跟著公務員退休資遣撫卹法……確定？對啊！","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:07.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:11.903000+08:00","text":"好，我請教你，現在一個法官退休金多少？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:13.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:17.886000+08:00","text":"退休金大概就是要看他的年資跟他最後的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:19.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:23.149000+08:00","text":"13、14職等法官退休，總數可以領到多少退休金？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:23.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:33.064000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們現在法官沒有職等，我們現在是用俸級，法官總共分24級，然後最資深的法官是第1級，第1級法官相當於……","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:33.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:35.045000+08:00","text":"沒關係，有沒有比照一般公務員？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:35.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:35.826000+08:00","text":"我時間快到了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:36.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:37.668000+08:00","text":"大概是8萬多塊啦！多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:38.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:40.770000+08:00","text":"8萬多塊，就是所得替代率也差不多就是剛才次長所提到的……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:41.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:41.531000+08:00","text":"總數呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:41.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:43.552000+08:00","text":"我是講總數，你不能講一部分。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:44.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:50.238000+08:00","text":"對，法官的退休金之外，因為依照法官法，法官有一個退養金，司法官有退養金。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:50.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:19:50.959000+08:00","text":"那兩個加起來多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:19:51.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:01.226000+08:00","text":"目前如果是1級800俸點退休的，大概差不多是17、18萬左右，但是他的所得替……17、18萬嘛！","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:02.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:02.927000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:02.927000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:04.648000+08:00","text":"對，他們17、18萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:04.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:05.628000+08:00","text":"為什麼這部分就沒改？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:08.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:16.556000+08:00","text":"為什麼一般事務官做到14職等，現在大概6萬多，次長，這個公不公平？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:18.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:19.328000+08:00","text":"制度不一樣啦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:19.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:20.908000+08:00","text":"什麼制度不一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:20.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:24.991000+08:00","text":"當時就把它切出去，就不改而已啊，什麼制度不一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:24.991000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:25.991000+08:00","text":"他們有改……","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:25.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:29.333000+08:00","text":"次長，我覺得你這個政務府官很稱職，都不講真話，都替執政黨在護航。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:29.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:29.934000+08:00","text":"不會啦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:31.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:36.237000+08:00","text":"做得不錯，你這個政務官是標準的政務官，不講真話的政務官！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:36.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:38.439000+08:00","text":"我這樣的評論，你贊不贊成？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:38.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:38.779000+08:00","text":"我沒辦法贊成啦。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:41.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:42.061000+08:00","text":"事實啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:42.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:43.141000+08:00","text":"你都不講真話。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:43.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2023-12-07T09:20:50.354000+08:00","text":"有啦，我都講真話。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:20:50.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:04.098000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，一個法官不管叫退養金、退休金，18萬，行政機關的包括後面都是，做到14職等，包括你也一樣，退休金多少？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:04.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:04.798000+08:00","text":"你多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:06.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:08.899000+08:00","text":"我退休金大概6萬8,000元。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:08.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:12.320000+08:00","text":"對啊，6萬8,000元，這合不合理？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:12.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:19.211000+08:00","text":"法官是你的3倍啊，你這話還不敢講？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:19.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:20.771000+08:00","text":"制度不太一樣啦。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:20.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:22.933000+08:00","text":"哪個不一樣？你說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:22.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:23.213000+08:00","text":"這個請司法院……","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:23.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:27.375000+08:00","text":"不是，不是，你業務很熟，你講，哪個制度不一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:30.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:31.578000+08:00","text":"司法院的人事處長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:35.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:46.612000+08:00","text":"報告委員，法官依照憲法保障是終身職，所以司法官包括檢察官也一樣，其實沒有退休的概念，不像公務員屆齡退休，65歲就一定要退。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:46.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:48.852000+08:00","text":"好，這個我贊成，但有必要是我們這個做得不錯的政務次長的3倍嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:21:49.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:21:50.133000+08:00","text":"這樣合不合理？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:00.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:18.681000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為我剛剛不知道次長講的這個六萬多塊是不是沒有包含公保養老給付等等，我剛剛講的是總額，就是包括退休金、公保養老給付，還有其他的退撫給與，再加上司法官退養金，那是一個總數。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:19.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:19.682000+08:00","text":"他也講總數啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:19.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:20.322000+08:00","text":"他沒有講總數嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳處長美彤","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:20.322000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:21.322000+08:00","text":"因為退休金的那個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:20.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:21.122000+08:00","text":"次長，你沒有講總數啊？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:21.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:26.505000+08:00","text":"那個是月退休俸。對啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:27.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:28.246000+08:00","text":"他也是月退休俸啊！","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:28.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:32.288000+08:00","text":"他講那個公保養老給付，那是一次提領。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:32.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:33.929000+08:00","text":"那個多少錢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:33.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:36.009000+08:00","text":"那個應該兩、三百萬啦。對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:37.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:37.550000+08:00","text":"兩、三百萬。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:40.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:51.877000+08:00","text":"我只是說蔡政府做年金改革的時候，都把他不想改的切出去，次長，這樣合不合理？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:52.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:22:54.218000+08:00","text":"制度不一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"朱次長楠賢","start":"2023-12-07T09:22:55.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:23:03.771000+08:00","text":"制度不一樣，因為他本來是領終身俸的，沒有退休制度。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"曾委員銘宗","start":"2023-12-07T09:23:04.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:23:10.695000+08:00","text":"好啦，逼你也沒有用啦，你是一個非常稱職、不講真話的政務官，謝謝。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2023-12-07T09:23:10.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:23:10.835000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝曾銘宗總召。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2023-12-07T09:23:10.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2023-12-07T09:23:11.075000+08:00","text":"接下來請鄭運鵬委員發言。","quality":0.364}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}