{"error":false,"id":["149138"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149138,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149138","日期":"2024-02-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-02-23T16:03:15+08:00","結束時間":"2024-02-23T16:19:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/61d28f3f53a2feb63e638ed67c69ee78b347916f9bc661eaf8ba9b0039caa7a62a9b6660b240c8ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"16:03:15 - 16:19:10","會議時間":"2024-02-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第2次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、2月23日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、2月27日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":710,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（16時3分）謝謝韓院長，是不是可以請陳院長上台？"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員好，恭喜你當選立委。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝院長。","院長，我們今天是要用科學的方式，而且很客觀地來探討民進黨執政8年的食安問題。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["王委員育敏：這份報告的封面叫做「總檢討專案報告」，請教院長，整個報告我看了，8年的總檢討報告只有9頁，但是我看不到檢討！裡面通篇沒有任何檢討，但是卻對馬政府時期提了非常多的食安事件！這有點離題了吧？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我有檢討，我有說我們未來要怎麼精進。但是通常食安是不斷地精進，我們要看我們在過去的8年……在檢討過去8年，我們還是有講有2個事件啊！"],["王委員育敏：你有檢討，是不是？檢討了什麼？院長可不可以告訴本席？"],["陳院長建仁：我的報告如果詳細看，我們有2件還是系統性的問題；我在文章裡面有寫。但是這2件系統性的問題我們要來比較到底是否有所進步。我們要看有沒有進步，所以我們就比較前8年的情況……"],["王委員育敏：怎麼會檢討前8年呢？要檢討當然是你任內這8年，你要跟自己做比較嘛！檢討8年前有意義嗎？","好。院長，我們切入正題……"],["陳院長建仁：比較……"],["王委員育敏：我就讓你看到……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以講一下嗎？"],["王委員育敏：我就讓你看到你們這8年到底有哪些食安事件好不好？我們一起來看……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可不可以講一下？如果……"],["王委員育敏：我覺得民進黨這8年食安問題有兩件事情做得最不好，一個是源頭的控管破功，為什麼？因為在馬政府時期不會這樣做，但是在蔡政府時期開放了很多，從源頭，民眾有疑慮的物品繼續開放進來，第一個是什麼……"],["陳院長建仁：馬總統的時候也有。"],["王委員育敏：我們就是……"],["陳院長建仁：牛肉。"],["王委員育敏：美豬，含有萊劑的美豬直接進口進來。另外一個，在日本災區的這一些食品，有核輻射的風險疑慮的食品，也把它開放進來。另外還有什麼？農藥竟然是放寬殘留的標準。另外一個，禁用的……"],["陳院長建仁：檢驗的結果都是合格。"],["王委員育敏：氟派瑞，從禁用變成是開放。本席現在是在告訴你，所以請院長先不要插話，第一個就是源頭的部分破功，你從源頭的管控變成源頭的開放。另外一個破功是什麼？加強查驗的部分也破功，包括雞蛋芬普尼的事件，我們可以看到超標，這個當時也是一個很重大的食安事件。另外還有去年我們看到美豬進來之後改標、洗產地，這個問題也非常地嚴重。還有現在的蘇丹紅，正在燒的蘇丹紅，這是你邊境查驗沒有查出來，從源頭這邊沒有守住，然後讓它放進來，這個問題也是非常地嚴重。還有今天很多人提到的，臺中驗出來有一包台糖的豬肉含有瘦肉精，但是我們現在整個行政系統，包括民進黨的委員在打擊的是誰？是第一線的食安人員……"],["陳院長建仁：不是。"],["王委員育敏：我們所有的加強查驗最需要的是什麼？是食安人員，結果這個事件為什麼讓食安人員委屈落淚？就是打擊到食安人員的士氣，所以我要說民進黨這8年執政，在源頭的部分沒有守住，還主動開放，另外在查驗的部分也查得不夠澈底。接下來我要直接問院長幾個問題……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員育敏：第一個問題……"],["陳院長建仁：我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員育敏：我要先請教你美豬的問題……"],["陳院長建仁：院長，我們是不是互相可以回答？"],["王委員育敏：我沒有問的時候，當然就不需要回答，院長。"],["陳院長建仁：不是喔！規定不是這樣……"],["王委員育敏：我有請問院長的時候才要回答，不是什麼呢？"],["陳院長建仁：規定是這一個時間是2個人共用的。"],["王委員育敏：院長，委員有問院長的時候，你才需要回答，我沒有問，你為什麼需要回答呢？"],["主席：跟院士報告一下，也跟王委員報告一下，我們現在這個是專案報告，所以是官員、委員共同使用詢答時間15分鐘，特別也來報告一下。"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！所以我也可以回答。"],["王委員育敏：是，現在我還有問題要問你啊！我問你的時候你可以回答，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，不是，這一個時間是我可以回答。"],["王委員育敏：我請問你，本席問你……"],["陳院長建仁：剛才你講的開放美豬進口……"],["王委員育敏：美豬112年……"],["陳院長建仁：馬總統的時候就開放美牛進口……"],["王委員育敏：我們進口了多少美國豬肉？"],["陳院長建仁：你剛才講的這一些源頭管控……"],["王委員育敏：院長，請回答本席的問題，112年進口多少美國豬肉？"],["陳院長建仁：我覺得你這樣不公平啊！因為剛才講過兩邊都可以回答。"],["王委員育敏：本席問你問題，你為什麼不回答呢？112年進口多少美國豬肉你知道嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：1.15萬噸啊！"],["王委員育敏：多少？"],["陳院長建仁：1.15萬噸。"],["王委員育敏：是，換算成我們臺灣的豬的話，你知道大概有幾頭豬嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我不太清楚，這個不是我的專業。"],["王委員育敏：大概有九萬多頭，那我就問你，這一些豬肉都到哪裡去了？"],["陳院長建仁：這個豬肉當然就是肉產品啊！工廠啊！等等啊！都會使用啊！對。"],["王委員育敏：都會使用？"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員育敏：都有標示出來嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：美豬都要……"],["薛部長瑞元：需要標示。"],["王委員育敏：都有標示喔？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：是喔？好，那請回答本席的問題，去年消基會自己在市面上查了289件，它去抽這些所有的加工品，沒有一件標美豬。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有就沒有。"],["王委員育敏：沒有就沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！"],["王委員育敏：沒有就沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：不然一定要說有也很奇怪啊！"],["王委員育敏：你知道我們現在……我剛剛已經講過喔！你進口美豬的數量是高達一千多萬公斤，等同是九萬多頭豬這樣的數量，結果在我們的市面上沒有一件我們的加工品有標示豬肉是美豬，這合理嗎？這合理嗎？更別忘了去年10月爆發出來的，就是把美豬都改成什麼？標加拿大豬，已經被查出來了，那這件事情在去年10月這麼嚴重的時候……"],["陳院長建仁：消基會是抽樣的檢查，這個檢查……"],["王委員育敏：我問一下部長，你說要去改善這樣的情況，現在改善了多少？當時開放美豬進來，行政院信誓旦旦清楚標示，這個是你們管制的原則，結果現在市面上完全看不到美豬，那麼「清楚標示」跑去哪裡了？"],["陳院長建仁：你給他回答。"],["王委員育敏：請說。"],["薛部長瑞元：消基會去查的只不過其中一部分，它沒有查到的話，就是它沒有查到，其他的部分當然有，因為我們有輸入之後流向的情況……"],["王委員育敏：好，你提供給本席一個報告，這一千多萬公斤的美豬流向到哪裡，你現在可以口頭報告嗎？譬如是到哪一個加工產業，還是有到軍方，還是到哪裡？這些美豬到底流向是哪裡？可不可以有一個約略，你現在就告訴本席？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想會後是不是我們把書面……"],["陳院長建仁：會後我們給委員一個報告。"],["王委員育敏：會後？那麼現在部長你掌握多少？到哪裡去了？我覺得民眾有知的權利啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道有追蹤它的流向，但是到哪裡去，我不會背起來。"],["陳院長建仁：美牛……"],["王委員育敏：它大致的狀況，你都沒有掌握？譬如變成是加工品，還是什麼樣的產品？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不可能背這種東西啦，好不好？"],["王委員育敏：不可能背這樣的東西？這個是……"],["陳院長建仁：美豬進來，它會有不同的銷售管道，這樣的管道五花八門，你要一個部會首長去把它記起來……"],["王委員育敏：你總是舉得出幾個類型吧！譬如去做水餃、做貢丸、做肉包，還是進到哪一個系統？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我跟委員先說明一下。"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["陳代理部長駿季：整個豬肉進口裡面，美國豬肉占比大概是12%，大部分的豬肉……"],["王委員育敏：它現在是第三大，美豬現在是整個進口豬肉的第三大。"],["陳代理部長駿季：對。加拿大是將近四成，西班牙大概兩成五，美國大概是一成一左右，大概是這個數字。"],["王委員育敏：對，第三大。"],["陳代理部長駿季：現在進口的部分，因為國人習慣鮮食的肉的部分，都是溫體豬肉比較多一點，大概有七成的豬肉都是用溫體的方式，其他的是加工品，加工品的部分，國內不足……"],["王委員育敏：所以都到加工品區了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：大部分的進口豬肉都到加工的系統，加工的系統有不同的……"],["王委員育敏：現在改標的問題有沒有很嚴重？你的意思是美豬都進到加工系統，但是按照我們的食安法，進到加工系統，你的原料還是要標示是美豬，為什麼消基會抽到的樣品裡面，很多的加工品還是看不到「美豬」這兩個字？"],["陳代理部長駿季：我想那個是產地標示的問題，產地標示因為不同國家進來的話，根據它的標示，它會標示它的來源國嘛！"],["王委員育敏：對啊，一定要標示。"],["陳代理部長駿季：剛才衛福部部長所提到的，就是消基會只是抽檢一些部分，沒有抽到表示它那邊沒有嘛！"],["王委員育敏：你可不可以提供本席有標示美豬的這些產品到底在哪裡？還有本席要求，剛剛部長說的，你既然都有掌握所有流向，我要知道這一些流向到哪裡，然後是不是還有繼續改標、標示不實的問題，這個是食安，國人非常關注的。去年10月才爆發有嚴重的改標，把美豬都改成加拿大，今年到底情況是不是還是一樣，還是在你們的稽查之後，已經有改善？本席要一個完整的報告。接下來……"],["陳院長建仁：改標的情形是我們主動去偵測出來的。"],["王委員育敏：改標就是改標嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：是我們主動的……"],["王委員育敏：不管是不是主動偵測出來……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，這表示我們在食安的管控上就是要積極主動，積極主動去發現有這樣的錯誤。"],["王委員育敏：因為你當時承諾民眾就是要清楚標示，結果沒有清楚標示，變成是改標、洗產地，這是第一個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：業者改標是業者的錯誤。"],["王委員育敏：第二個是蘇丹紅的問題，到目前為止，中央源頭管控失靈，邊境查驗破功，直接讓它長驅直入。這就是從境外直接進來的，目前有1,750公斤全臺流竄，到目前為止，這是最終的數字，還是數字還要繼續上升？到底目前衛福部掌握多少？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前有21家進口的是這個有問題的產品，所以我們這21家通通都已經禁止進口3個月，至於已經過來的，因為之前沒有百分之百抽批的，所以那些部分，我們正在後續追蹤和檢查。"],["王委員育敏：好，你們現在只查半年，只查到半年，為什麼只設定這半年？如果過去只有50%的抽驗，以現在看起來，這個大量失控的情況，還有更多可能是不合格在市面上流竄，你們為什麼目前只清查近半年172批，還會再往前追查嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會繼續追查。"],["王委員育敏：好，本席要求要繼續追查，因為這個不單純，這表示它有大量其實都是含有致癌物的蘇丹紅已經進到臺灣裡面，這一個食安事件，我也要求你們必須要徹查清楚。另外一個，今天很多人提到臺中的食安事件。院長，你是聖騎士，也是中研院院士，還擔任過中研院的副院長，但我剛剛聽到你在答復民進黨委員的時候，你是先設箭再畫靶。"],["陳院長建仁：我不是！"],["王委員育敏：你已經心中有心證了！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：你就是認定這件事情就是實驗室污染，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["王委員育敏：可以。"],["陳院長建仁：給我完整的時間。"],["王委員育敏：你有沒有認定這是實驗室污染？是不是？你剛剛的答案，本席聽起來就是這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：現在我們所有的肉品檢驗，不管是在飼養場、屠宰場或者是賣場，都沒有檢驗出來西布特羅，而西布特羅進口以後只分布在24家的實驗室，而且所有的檢驗，豬肉有的就只有在臺中市政府這個實驗室的那一塊肉。"],["王委員育敏：不是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊肉，他們是到國防部的福利社去抽檢出來的，好不好！"],["陳院長建仁：所以它抽檢出來以後，其他同一批的豬肉統統測出來是測不到西布特羅。"],["王委員育敏：院長，容我糾正你，同一批的豬肉裡面，你知道嗎，臺中這邊三百多公斤裡面，當他們要再次回到福利社去抽的時候，他們統統都已經賣光了，他們已經賣完了，所以它的這一批裡面……你這樣子的推論會不會太大膽？"],["陳院長建仁：我們有履歷溯源，所以我們可以知道哪一個是同一批……"],["王委員育敏：所以院長現在就是認定，這就是實驗室污染，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：所以這一個很重要的在臺中市政府檢驗出來以後……"],["王委員育敏：你回答本席就好，你已經認定這就是實驗室污染，是或不是？"],["陳院長建仁：這一個可能性，我排除掉其他可能污染的來源以後，我們知道，就是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊豬肉測得出來有西布特羅。"],["王委員育敏：那院長就不是科學家。"],["陳院長建仁：那請問，這個西布特羅從哪裡來？"],["王委員育敏：你如果是科學家，你應該知道2月6號、2月19號中央複驗，還有審查實驗室已經在驗……"],["陳院長建仁：你同一塊肉當然測得出來啊！"],["王委員育敏：流程如果沒有問題……"],["陳院長建仁：你測的是同一塊肉，當然測得出來啊！"],["王委員育敏：流程是不是沒有問題？檢驗的流程是不是沒有問題？部長，你回答。"],["薛部長瑞元：上架之後是沒有問題，但是上架之前的我們不知道。"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員育敏：你說檢驗的流程沒有問題，我在問你實驗室的檢驗流程有沒有問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，甚至檢體上……"],["王委員育敏：你2月6號說沒有問題，你現在要改口嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：上架之後沒有問題，所以我那個時候就講，前處理要開始查。"],["陳院長建仁：前處理要開始查啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，要開始查清楚。"],["王委員育敏：那現在真相未明的情況，院長你急於定調一定就是實驗室污染，我只問你，這樣子對第一線的食安人員公平嗎？公平嗎？科學的證據，專家學者會議開完了嗎？還沒開完！結論出來了嗎？還沒有，但是我們的行政院院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我們排除了所有的來源，統統沒有，你看今天的排除法是怎麼……"],["王委員育敏：今天在立法院回復所有的民進黨委員，院長已經定調就是實驗室的污染，這就是典型的先射箭再畫靶。"],["陳院長建仁：這是邏輯，這就是科學的推論……"],["王委員育敏：你已經定調的時候，專家會議要怎麼開？專家會議還需要開嗎？還需要再積極查證嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：要啊！專家會議要去看實驗室哪一個地方出現問題，才會檢驗出來……"],["王委員育敏：院長都說我自己已經排除，我排除了這個、我排除了那個，這個就是實驗室污染……"],["陳院長建仁：這就是科學。為什麼要專家？這就是科學啊！"],["王委員育敏：所以你就是定調，這是實驗室污染，對不對？你已經定調了嘛！對不對？是或不是？"],["陳院長建仁：我是覺得只有這一個實驗室的……你一直在給我貼標籤……"],["王委員育敏：我沒有貼標籤……"],["陳院長建仁：我說只有實驗室的這一塊肉……"],["王委員育敏：是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法，是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法，而且……"],["陳院長建仁：實驗室的這一塊肉檢查出來西布特羅，而其他的地方沒有西布特羅……"],["王委員育敏：最後，我讓院長看一下食安人員的眼淚。我這張圖要告訴院長，食安人員查緝食安中央、地方一條心。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯，我同意。"],["王委員育敏：今天不應該是回過頭去打擊食安人員的士氣……"],["陳院長建仁：我沒有打擊喔！委員你這樣講話，我不同意……"],["王委員育敏：今天第一線的人員為什麼要落淚？"],["陳院長建仁：我完全不同意你的講法，我們中央和地方是合作的。"],["王委員育敏：他為什麼哭泣？因為他受委屈……"],["陳院長建仁：你這樣子是故意挑撥離間！"],["王委員育敏：因為他受委屈，所以我要提醒院長……"],["陳院長建仁：我不贊成，挑撥離間！我完全不贊成……"],["王委員育敏：所以我要提醒院長，食安人員，你要守護他，不是打擊他……"],["陳院長建仁：我完完全全同意啊！挑撥離間！"],["王委員育敏：要不然未來的食安工作，完全沒有辦法讓食安人員盡心盡力去查。請守護食安人員的尊嚴，不要打擊他們的士氣！"],["主席：謝謝王委員育敏的質詢。再次跟院會報告，這次是專案的食安問題報告，採用即問即答，要拜託委員跟官員之間互相尊重，共同遵守相關質詢規定，再次感謝大家。","接下來我們請何委員欣純質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-2","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳昭姿","李坤城","洪孟楷","洪申翰","廖偉翔","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","鍾佳濱","謝龍介","吳沛憶","王育敏","何欣純","李彥秀","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":277,"meetingDate":["2024-02-23"],"gazette_id":"1130401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130401_00009","1130401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第2次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「民進黨政府執政八年臺灣食安問題總檢討」專案報告並備質詢─ 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那個改標的提醒是我們主動去偵測出來的。"},{"start":581.908,"end":586.57,"text":"改標就是改標嗎?不管是主動偵測出來,因為你當時承諾民眾就是要積極主動去發現葉橙是改標,那葉橙改標是葉橙的中午。第二個蘇丹紅的問題"},{"start":598.474,"end":599.215,"text":"目前有21家進口的是這有問題的產品。"},{"start":622.697,"end":639.097,"text":"那所以我們這21天通通都已經禁止進口3個月那已經過來的因為之前的話有沒有百分之百抽屁的所以那些部分我們現在正在後續再解釋好那你們現在只查"},{"start":639.617,"end":655.987,"text":"只查半年只查到半年為什麼只設定這半年如果說過去只有50%的抽驗以現在看起來這個大量失控的情況還有更多可能是不合格在市面上流竄你們為什麼目前只清查近半年172批還會再往前追查嗎"},{"start":657.267,"end":676.632,"text":"我們會繼續追查本席要求要繼續追查因為這個不單純這個表示他有大量其實都是含有致癌物的蘇丹紅已經大量進到臺灣裡面這個實案事件我也要求你們必須要徹查清楚另外一個今天很多人提到的臺中的這個實案事件"},{"start":677.392,"end":705.354,"text":"院長你是聖騎士也是中研院院士還擔任過中研院的副院長但我剛剛在聽到你在答覆民進黨委員的時候你是先射箭再劃靶你已經心中有心證了你就是認定這件事情就是實驗室污染是不是我可以回答給我完整的時間你有沒有認定這是實驗室污染是不是你剛剛的答案本席聽起來就是這樣"},{"start":706.418,"end":730.748,"text":"現在我們所有的肉品檢驗不管是在飼養場、屠宰場或者是賣場都沒有檢驗出來西部特羅而西部特羅進口以後只分布在24家的實驗室而且所有的檢驗豬肉有的就只有在台中市政府這個實驗室的那一塊肉"},{"start":731.408,"end":756.991,"text":"不是臺中市政府實驗室這塊肉,他們是到國防部的福利社區抽檢出來的。所以他抽檢出來以後,其他的同一批的豬肉通通測出來,是測不到西普特摩。同一批的豬肉裡面,你知道嗎?臺中這邊300多公斤裡面,當他們要再次回到福利社區抽的時候,他們通通都已經賣光了。"},{"start":758.052,"end":766.576,"text":"他們已經賣完了所以他的這一批裡面你這樣子的推論會不會太大膽?會不會太大膽?所以院長現在就是認定這就是實驗室污染對不對?你回答本席就好你已經認定這就是實驗室污染"},{"start":777.2,"end":797.051,"text":"這一個可能性所排除掉其他可能汙染的來源以後我們知道說就是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊豬肉測得出來有西部特柔那請問這個西部特柔從哪裡來你如果是科學家你一定要知道2月6號、2月19號中央復驗還有審查實驗室已經認證流程如果沒有問題流程是不是沒有問題"},{"start":803.786,"end":825.999,"text":"檢驗的流程是不是沒有問題部長你回答上架之後是沒有問題但是上架之前我們不知道你說檢驗的流程沒有問題我在問你實驗室檢驗流程有沒有問題2月6號說沒有問題你現在要改口嗎上架之後沒有問題所以我那時候就要講前處理要開始查"},{"start":827.113,"end":850.68,"text":"前處理要開始查了那現在真相未明的情況院長你急於定調一定就是實驗室污染我只問你這樣子對第一線實案人員公平嗎?科學的證據專家學者會議開完了嗎?還沒開完結論出來了嗎?還沒有但是我們的行政院院長今天在立法院回復"},{"start":852.04,"end":857.708,"text":"所有的民進黨委員、院長已經禁掉就是實驗室的污染這就是典型的先設建再劃板當院長已經禁掉的時候專家會議要怎麼開?專家會議還需要開嗎?"},{"start":867.581,"end":870.624,"text":"現在會議要去看實驗室,哪一個地方出現問題才會檢驗出來。這就是科學。為什麼要專家這就是科學呢?這就是科學。"},{"start":882.817,"end":899.576,"text":"我是覺得只有這個實驗室的,你一直在給我貼標籤,我說只有實驗室的這一塊肉檢查出,是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法,是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法,實驗室的這一塊肉檢查出來吸住了,其他人都沒有吸住喔。"},{"start":903.36,"end":921.731,"text":"我這張圖要告訴院長施安人員查緝施安中央地方一條心今天不應該是回過頭去打擊施安人員的事情我沒有打擊喔委員你這樣講話我不同意今天第一線的人員為什麼要落淚我們中央地方是合作的因為他受委屈故意挑撥離間謝謝"},{"start":944.295,"end":954.603,"text":"謝謝王委員育敏的質詢。再一次跟院會報告。這次是專案的、實案問題的報告。採用疑問疑答。"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:03:15+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:03:21.260000+08:00","text":"謝謝韓院長，是不是可以請陳院長上台？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-02-23T16:03:21.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:03:21.280000+08:00","text":"請陳院長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:03:32.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:03:34.177000+08:00","text":"王委員好，恭喜你當選立委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:03:34.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:03:35.978000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:03:35.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:03:44.365000+08:00","text":"院長，我們今天是要用科學的方式，而且很客觀地來探討民進黨執政8年的食安問題。好。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:03:44.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:03:53.954000+08:00","text":"這份報告的封面叫做「總檢討專案報告」，請教院長，整個報告我看了，8年的總檢討報告只有9頁，但是我看不到檢討！","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:03:56.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:03.431000+08:00","text":"裡面通篇沒有任何檢討，但是卻對馬政府時期提了非常多的食安事件！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:04.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:06.373000+08:00","text":"這有點離題了吧？院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:06.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:09.036000+08:00","text":"沒有，我有檢討，我有說我們未來要怎麼精進。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:09.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:15.402000+08:00","text":"但是通常食安是不斷地精進，我們要看我們在過去的8年……在檢討過去8年，我們還是有講有2個事件啊！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:15.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:16.402000+08:00","text":"你有檢討，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:15.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:15.983000+08:00","text":"檢討了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:15.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:16.704000+08:00","text":"院長可不可以告訴本席？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:16.704000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:19.256625+08:00","text":"我的報告如果詳細看，我們有2件還是系統性的問題；我在文章裡面有寫。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:19.256625+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:21.809250+08:00","text":"但是這2件系統性的問題我們要來比較到底是否有所進步。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:21.809250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:24.361875+08:00","text":"我們要看有沒有進步，所以我們就比較前8年的情況……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:24.361875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:26.914500+08:00","text":"怎麼會檢討前8年呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:26.914500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:29.467125+08:00","text":"要檢討當然是你任內這8年，你要跟自己做比較嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:29.467125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:32.019750+08:00","text":"檢討8年前有意義嗎？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:32.019750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:34.572375+08:00","text":"院長，我們切入正題……比較……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:34.572375+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:37.125000+08:00","text":"我就讓你看到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:37.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:37.225000+08:00","text":"委員，我可以講一下嗎？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:37.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:38.225000+08:00","text":"我就讓你看到你們這8年到底有哪些食安事件好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:38.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:39.225000+08:00","text":"我們一起來看……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:37.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:04:37.526000+08:00","text":"委員，我可不可以講一下？如果……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:04:54.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:04.564000+08:00","text":"我覺得民進黨這8年食安問題有兩件事情做得最不好，一個是源頭的控管破功，為什麼？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:04.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:15.649000+08:00","text":"因為在馬政府時期不會這樣做，但是在蔡政府時期開放了很多，從源頭，民眾有疑慮的物品繼續開放進來，第一個是什麼……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:15.649000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:16.649000+08:00","text":"馬總統的時候也有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:15.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:16.349000+08:00","text":"我們就是……牛肉。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:16.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:20.491000+08:00","text":"美豬，含有萊劑的美豬直接進口進來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:21.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:29.076000+08:00","text":"另外一個，在日本災區的這一些食品，有核輻射的風險疑慮的食品，也把它開放進來。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:29.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:30.957000+08:00","text":"另外還有什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:30.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:33.459000+08:00","text":"農藥竟然是放寬殘留的標準。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:33.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:35.480000+08:00","text":"另外一個，禁用的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:35.480000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:36.501000+08:00","text":"檢驗的結果都是合格。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:36.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:39.363000+08:00","text":"氟派瑞，從禁用變成是開放。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:40.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:48.789000+08:00","text":"本席現在是在告訴你，所以請院長先不要插話，第一個就是源頭的部分破功，你從源頭的管控變成源頭的開放。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:49.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:05:51.251000+08:00","text":"另外一個破功是什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:05:51.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:00.838000+08:00","text":"加強查驗的部分也破功，包括雞蛋芬普尼的事件，我們可以看到超標，這個當時也是一個很重大的食安事件。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:01.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:09.124000+08:00","text":"另外還有去年我們看到美豬進來之後改標、洗產地，這個問題也非常地嚴重。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:10.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:23.813000+08:00","text":"還有現在的蘇丹紅，正在燒的蘇丹紅，這是你邊境查驗沒有查出來，從源頭這邊沒有守住，然後讓它放進來，這個問題也是非常地嚴重。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:24.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:37.141000+08:00","text":"還有今天很多人提到的，臺中驗出來有一包台糖的豬肉含有瘦肉精，但是我們現在整個行政系統，包括民進黨的委員在打擊的是誰？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:37.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:38.382000+08:00","text":"是第一線的食安人員……不是。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:38.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:39.382000+08:00","text":"我們所有的加強查驗最需要的是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:39.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:40.382000+08:00","text":"是食安人員，結果這個事件為什麼讓食安人員委屈落淚？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:40.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:41.382000+08:00","text":"就是打擊到食安人員的士氣，所以我要說民進黨這8年執政，在源頭的部分沒有守住，還主動開放，另外在查驗的部分也查得不夠澈底。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:41.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:42.382000+08:00","text":"接下來我要直接問院長幾個問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:42.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:43.382000+08:00","text":"我可以回答嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:43.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:44.382000+08:00","text":"第一個問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:39.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:39.342000+08:00","text":"我可以回答嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:39.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:40.342000+08:00","text":"我要先請教你美豬的問題……","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:39.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:39.742000+08:00","text":"院長，我們是不是互相可以回答？","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:39.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:44.349500+08:00","text":"我沒有問的時候，當然就不需要回答，院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:44.349500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:48.957000+08:00","text":"不是喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:48.957000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:53.564500+08:00","text":"規定不是這樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:53.564500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:06:58.172000+08:00","text":"我有請問院長的時候才要回答，不是什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:06:58.172000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:02.779500+08:00","text":"規定是這一個時間是2個人共用的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:02.779500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:07.387000+08:00","text":"院長，委員有問院長的時候，你才需要回答，我沒有問，你為什麼需要回答呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:07.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:31.765000+08:00","text":"跟院士報告一下，也跟王委員報告一下，我們現在這個是專案報告，所以是官員、委員共同使用詢答時間15分鐘，特別也來報告一下。對啊！","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:31.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:33.726000+08:00","text":"所以我也可以回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:34.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:36.247000+08:00","text":"是，現在我還有問題要問你啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:36.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:37.747000+08:00","text":"我問你的時候你可以回答，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:37.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:40.228000+08:00","text":"沒有，不是，這一個時間是我可以回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:40.228000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:41.228000+08:00","text":"我請問你，本席問你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:40.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:41.268000+08:00","text":"剛才你講的開放美豬進口……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:41.268000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:42.268000+08:00","text":"美豬112年……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:41.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:44.609000+08:00","text":"馬總統的時候就開放美牛進口……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:44.609000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:45.609000+08:00","text":"我們進口了多少美國豬肉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:45.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:46.190000+08:00","text":"你剛才講的這一些源頭管控……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:46.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:54.873000+08:00","text":"院長，請回答本席的問題，112年進口多少美國豬肉？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:54.873000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:56.827667+08:00","text":"我覺得你這樣不公平啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:56.827667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:07:58.782333+08:00","text":"因為剛才講過兩邊都可以回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:07:58.782333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:00.737000+08:00","text":"本席問你問題，你為什麼不回答呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:00.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:03.599000+08:00","text":"112年進口多少美國豬肉你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:04.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:05.300000+08:00","text":"1.15萬噸啊！多少？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:07.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:07.281000+08:00","text":"1.15萬噸。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:07.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:12.224000+08:00","text":"是，換算成我們臺灣的豬的話，你知道大概有幾頭豬嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:12.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:14.505000+08:00","text":"我不太清楚，這個不是我的專業。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:14.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:19.288000+08:00","text":"大概有九萬多頭，那我就問你，這一些豬肉都到哪裡去了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:20.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:21.570000+08:00","text":"這個豬肉當然就是肉產品啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:21.570000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:25.117667+08:00","text":"工廠啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:25.117667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:28.665333+08:00","text":"等等啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:28.665333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:32.213000+08:00","text":"都會使用啊！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:32.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:35.760667+08:00","text":"都會使用？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:35.760667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:39.308333+08:00","text":"都有標示出來嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:39.308333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:42.856000+08:00","text":"美豬都要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:42.856000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:46.403667+08:00","text":"需要標示。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:46.403667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:49.951333+08:00","text":"都有標示喔？對。是喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:49.951333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:53.499000+08:00","text":"好，那請回答本席的問題，去年消基會自己在市面上查了289件，它去抽這些所有的加工品，沒有一件標美豬。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:53.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:54.179000+08:00","text":"沒有就沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:55.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:55.700000+08:00","text":"沒有就沒有？對啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:57.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:08:57.601000+08:00","text":"沒有就沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:08:57.601000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:09:00.303000+08:00","text":"不然一定要說有也很奇怪啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:09:00.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:09:02.804000+08:00","text":"你知道我們現在……我剛剛已經講過喔！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:09:02.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:09:25.356000+08:00","text":"你進口美豬的數量是高達一千多萬公斤，等同是九萬多頭豬這樣的數量，結果在我們的市面上沒有一件我們的加工品有標示豬肉是美豬，這合理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:09:25.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:09:26.276000+08:00","text":"這合理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:09:26.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:09:32.680000+08:00","text":"更別忘了去年10月爆發出來的，就是把美豬都改成什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:09:32.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:09:38.964000+08:00","text":"標加拿大豬，已經被查出來了，那這件事情在去年10月這麼嚴重的時候……","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:09:38.964000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:09:40.245000+08:00","text":"消基會是抽樣的檢查，這個檢查……","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:09:40.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:09:45.288000+08:00","text":"我問一下部長，你說要去改善這樣的情況，現在改善了多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:09:46.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:09:58.637000+08:00","text":"當時開放美豬進來，行政院信誓旦旦清楚標示，這個是你們管制的原則，結果現在市面上完全看不到美豬，那麼「清楚標示」跑去哪裡了？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:09:58.637000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:01.819000+08:00","text":"你給他回答。請說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:01.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:15.308000+08:00","text":"消基會去查的只不過其中一部分，它沒有查到的話，就是它沒有查到，其他的部分當然有，因為我們有輸入之後流向的情況……","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:15.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:22.390000+08:00","text":"好，你提供給本席一個報告，這一千多萬公斤的美豬流向到哪裡，你現在可以口頭報告嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:22.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:27.072000+08:00","text":"譬如是到哪一個加工產業，還是有到軍方，還是到哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:27.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:28.612000+08:00","text":"這些美豬到底流向是哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:28.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:30.613000+08:00","text":"可不可以有一個約略，你現在就告訴本席？","quality":1},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:31.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:32.953000+08:00","text":"我想會後是不是我們把書面……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:32.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:35.094000+08:00","text":"會後我們給委員一個報告。會後？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:35.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:37.375000+08:00","text":"那麼現在部長你掌握多少？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:37.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:38.535000+08:00","text":"到哪裡去了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:38.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:40.236000+08:00","text":"我覺得民眾有知的權利啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:40.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:48.086000+08:00","text":"我知道有追蹤它的流向，但是到哪裡去，我不會背起來。美牛……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:48.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:49.268000+08:00","text":"它大致的狀況，你都沒有掌握？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:49.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:52.072000+08:00","text":"譬如變成是加工品，還是什麼樣的產品？","quality":1},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:52.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:54.556000+08:00","text":"我不可能背這種東西啦，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:54.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:55.556000+08:00","text":"不可能背這樣的東西？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:55.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:56.556000+08:00","text":"這個是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:56.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:57.556000+08:00","text":"美豬進來，它會有不同的銷售管道，這樣的管道五花八門，你要一個部會首長去把它記起來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:57.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:58.556000+08:00","text":"你總是舉得出幾個類型吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:58.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:59.556000+08:00","text":"譬如去做水餃、做貢丸、做肉包，還是進到哪一個系統？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理部長駿季","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:54.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:55.723000+08:00","text":"我跟委員先說明一下。好。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳代理部長駿季","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:55.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:10:57.584000+08:00","text":"整個豬肉進口裡面，美國豬肉占比大概是12%，大部分的豬肉……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:10:57.584000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:11:05.942333+08:00","text":"它現在是第三大，美豬現在是整個進口豬肉的第三大。對。","quality":0.174},{"speaker":"陳代理部長駿季","start":"2024-02-23T16:11:05.942333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:11:14.300667+08:00","text":"加拿大是將近四成，西班牙大概兩成五，美國大概是一成一左右，大概是這個數字。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:11:14.300667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:11:22.659000+08:00","text":"對，第三大。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理部長駿季","start":"2024-02-23T16:11:22.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:11:47.319000+08:00","text":"現在進口的部分，因為國人習慣鮮食的肉的部分，都是溫體豬肉比較多一點，大概有七成的豬肉都是用溫體的方式，其他的是加工品，加工品的部分，國內不足……","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:11:47.319000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:11:49.420000+08:00","text":"所以都到加工品區了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理部長駿季","start":"2024-02-23T16:11:49.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:11:52.843000+08:00","text":"大部分的進口豬肉都到加工的系統，加工的系統有不同的……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:11:53.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:11:54.945000+08:00","text":"現在改標的問題有沒有很嚴重？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:11:55.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:07.294000+08:00","text":"你的意思是美豬都進到加工系統，但是按照我們的食安法，進到加工系統，你的原料還是要標示是美豬，為什麼消基會抽到的樣品裡面，很多的加工品還是看不到「美豬」這兩個字？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳代理部長駿季","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:07.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:14.780000+08:00","text":"我想那個是產地標示的問題，產地標示因為不同國家進來的話，根據它的標示，它會標示它的來源國嘛！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:14.780000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:15.780000+08:00","text":"對啊，一定要標示。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理部長駿季","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:15.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:22.786000+08:00","text":"剛才衛福部部長所提到的，就是消基會只是抽檢一些部分，沒有抽到表示它那邊沒有嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:23.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:27.271000+08:00","text":"你可不可以提供本席有標示美豬的這些產品到底在哪裡？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:27.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:39.585000+08:00","text":"還有本席要求，剛剛部長說的，你既然都有掌握所有流向，我要知道這一些流向到哪裡，然後是不是還有繼續改標、標示不實的問題，這個是食安，國人非常關注的。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:40.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:50.080000+08:00","text":"去年10月才爆發有嚴重的改標，把美豬都改成加拿大，今年到底情況是不是還是一樣，還是在你們的稽查之後，已經有改善？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:50.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:51.682000+08:00","text":"本席要一個完整的報告。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:51.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:52.122000+08:00","text":"接下來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:52.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:55.006000+08:00","text":"改標的情形是我們主動去偵測出來的。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:56.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:57.648000+08:00","text":"改標就是改標嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:57.648000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:58.648000+08:00","text":"是我們主動的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:57.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:58.109000+08:00","text":"不管是不是主動偵測出來……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:58.109000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:59.109000+08:00","text":"沒有，這表示我們在食安的管控上就是要積極主動，積極主動去發現有這樣的錯誤。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:12:58.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:12:59.769000+08:00","text":"因為你當時承諾民眾就是要清楚標示，結果沒有清楚標示，變成是改標、洗產地，這是第一個問題。","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:13:00.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:13:00.770000+08:00","text":"業者改標是業者的錯誤。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:13:00.770000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:13:05.004667+08:00","text":"第二個是蘇丹紅的問題，到目前為止，中央源頭管控失靈，邊境查驗破功，直接讓它長驅直入。","quality":0.243},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:13:05.004667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:13:09.239333+08:00","text":"這就是從境外直接進來的，目前有1,750公斤全臺流竄，到目前為止，這是最終的數字，還是數字還要繼續上升？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:13:09.239333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:13:13.474000+08:00","text":"到底目前衛福部掌握多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:13:13.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:13:52.995000+08:00","text":"目前有21家進口的是這個有問題的產品，所以我們這21家通通都已經禁止進口3個月，至於已經過來的，因為之前沒有百分之百抽批的，所以那些部分，我們正在後續追蹤和檢查。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:13:53.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:13:57.799000+08:00","text":"好，你們現在只查半年，只查到半年，為什麼只設定這半年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:13:58.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:10.987000+08:00","text":"如果過去只有50%的抽驗，以現在看起來，這個大量失控的情況，還有更多可能是不合格在市面上流竄，你們為什麼目前只清查近半年172批，還會再往前追查嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:12.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:13.287000+08:00","text":"我們會繼續追查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:13.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:26.751000+08:00","text":"好，本席要求要繼續追查，因為這個不單純，這表示它有大量其實都是含有致癌物的蘇丹紅已經進到臺灣裡面，這一個食安事件，我也要求你們必須要徹查清楚。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:27.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:31.612000+08:00","text":"另外一個，今天很多人提到臺中的食安事件。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:32.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:44.422000+08:00","text":"院長，你是聖騎士，也是中研院院士，還擔任過中研院的副院長，但我剛剛聽到你在答復民進黨委員的時候，你是先設箭再畫靶。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:44.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:45.422000+08:00","text":"我不是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:44.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:46.964000+08:00","text":"你已經心中有心證了！沒有。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:47.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:50.306000+08:00","text":"你就是認定這件事情就是實驗室污染，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:52.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:53.049000+08:00","text":"委員，我可以回答嗎？可以。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:54.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:55.811000+08:00","text":"給我完整的時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:55.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:57.472000+08:00","text":"你有沒有認定這是實驗室污染？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:58.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:14:58.273000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:14:58.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:15:00.354000+08:00","text":"你剛剛的答案，本席聽起來就是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:15:01.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:15:25.728000+08:00","text":"現在我們所有的肉品檢驗，不管是在飼養場、屠宰場或者是賣場，都沒有檢驗出來西布特羅，而西布特羅進口以後只分布在24家的實驗室，而且所有的檢驗，豬肉有的就只有在臺中市政府這個實驗室的那一塊肉。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:15:26.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:15:32.714000+08:00","text":"不是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊肉，他們是到國防部的福利社去抽檢出來的，好不好！","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:15:32.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:15:40.120000+08:00","text":"所以它抽檢出來以後，其他同一批的豬肉統統測出來是測不到西布特羅。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:15:41.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:15:57.574000+08:00","text":"院長，容我糾正你，同一批的豬肉裡面，你知道嗎，臺中這邊三百多公斤裡面，當他們要再次回到福利社去抽的時候，他們統統都已經賣光了，他們已經賣完了，所以它的這一批裡面……你這樣子的推論會不會太大膽？","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:15:57.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:15:58.574000+08:00","text":"我們有履歷溯源，所以我們可以知道哪一個是同一批……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:15:58.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:00.235000+08:00","text":"所以院長現在就是認定，這就是實驗室污染，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:00.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:01.235000+08:00","text":"所以這一個很重要的在臺中市政府檢驗出來以後……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:00.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:01.556000+08:00","text":"你回答本席就好，你已經認定這就是實驗室污染，是或不是？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:12.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:22.486000+08:00","text":"這一個可能性，我排除掉其他可能污染的來源以後，我們知道，就是臺中市政府實驗室的這一塊豬肉測得出來有西布特羅。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:22.486000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:23.486000+08:00","text":"那院長就不是科學家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:22.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:25.687000+08:00","text":"那請問，這個西布特羅從哪裡來？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:25.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:29.349000+08:00","text":"你如果是科學家，你應該知道2月6號、2月19號中央複驗，還有審查實驗室已經在驗……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:29.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:30.349000+08:00","text":"你同一塊肉當然測得出來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:29.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:31.130000+08:00","text":"流程如果沒有問題……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:31.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:32.130000+08:00","text":"你測的是同一塊肉，當然測得出來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:31.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:32.051000+08:00","text":"流程是不是沒有問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:38.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:40.007000+08:00","text":"檢驗的流程是不是沒有問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:40.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:40.887000+08:00","text":"部長，你回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:41.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:45.930000+08:00","text":"上架之後是沒有問題，但是上架之前的我們不知道。對。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:47.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:50.733000+08:00","text":"你說檢驗的流程沒有問題，我在問你實驗室的檢驗流程有沒有問題？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:50.733000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:51.733000+08:00","text":"不是，甚至檢體上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:50.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:16:55.416000+08:00","text":"你2月6號說沒有問題，你現在要改口嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:16:55.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:00.979000+08:00","text":"上架之後沒有問題，所以我那個時候就講，前處理要開始查。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:02.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:03.053000+08:00","text":"前處理要開始查啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"薛部長瑞元","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:03.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:04.334000+08:00","text":"對，要開始查清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:04.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:15.377000+08:00","text":"那現在真相未明的情況，院長你急於定調一定就是實驗室污染，我只問你，這樣子對第一線的食安人員公平嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:15.377000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:16.377000+08:00","text":"公平嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:15.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:18.738000+08:00","text":"科學的證據，專家學者會議開完了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:18.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:19.138000+08:00","text":"還沒開完！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:20.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:21.218000+08:00","text":"結論出來了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:21.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:24.099000+08:00","text":"還沒有，但是我們的行政院院長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:24.099000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:25.099000+08:00","text":"我們排除了所有的來源，統統沒有，你看今天的排除法是怎麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:24.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:30.625000+08:00","text":"今天在立法院回復所有的民進黨委員，院長已經定調就是實驗室的污染，這就是典型的先射箭再畫靶。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:30.625000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:31.625000+08:00","text":"這是邏輯，這就是科學的推論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:31.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:32.087000+08:00","text":"你已經定調的時候，專家會議要怎麼開？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:32.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:32.708000+08:00","text":"專家會議還需要開嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:32.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:42.741000+08:00","text":"還需要再積極查證嗎？要啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:42.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:43.782000+08:00","text":"專家會議要去看實驗室哪一個地方出現問題，才會檢驗出來……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:43.782000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:44.782000+08:00","text":"院長都說我自己已經排除，我排除了這個、我排除了那個，這個就是實驗室污染……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:43.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:43.923000+08:00","text":"這就是科學。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:43.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:44.063000+08:00","text":"為什麼要專家？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:44.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:44.703000+08:00","text":"這就是科學啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:44.703000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:47.981500+08:00","text":"所以你就是定調，這是實驗室污染，對不對？","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:47.981500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:51.260000+08:00","text":"你已經定調了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:51.260000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:54.538500+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:54.538500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:17:57.817000+08:00","text":"是或不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:17:57.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:03.844000+08:00","text":"我是覺得只有這一個實驗室的……你一直在給我貼標籤……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:03.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:04.844000+08:00","text":"我沒有貼標籤……","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:03.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:06.107000+08:00","text":"我說只有實驗室的這一塊肉……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:06.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:11.032000+08:00","text":"是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法，是你的回答讓大家有這樣的看法，而且……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:12.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:14.276000+08:00","text":"實驗室的這一塊肉檢查出來西布特羅，而其他的地方沒有西布特羅……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:14.276000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:18.360000+08:00","text":"最後，我讓院長看一下食安人員的眼淚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:18.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:23.583000+08:00","text":"我這張圖要告訴院長，食安人員查緝食安中央、地方一條心。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:23.583000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:24.583000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，我同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:24.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:27.225000+08:00","text":"今天不應該是回過頭去打擊食安人員的士氣……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:27.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:28.806000+08:00","text":"我沒有打擊喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:28.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:29.627000+08:00","text":"委員你這樣講話，我不同意……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:30.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:32.989000+08:00","text":"今天第一線的人員為什麼要落淚？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:32.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:34.810000+08:00","text":"我完全不同意你的講法，我們中央和地方是合作的。","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:34.810000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:35.810000+08:00","text":"他為什麼哭泣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:35.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:36.170000+08:00","text":"因為他受委屈……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:36.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:36.731000+08:00","text":"你這樣子是故意挑撥離間！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:36.731000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:39.551500+08:00","text":"因為他受委屈，所以我要提醒院長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:39.551500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:42.372000+08:00","text":"我不贊成，挑撥離間！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:42.372000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:45.192500+08:00","text":"我完全不贊成……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:45.192500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:48.013000+08:00","text":"所以我要提醒院長，食安人員，你要守護他，不是打擊他……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:48.013000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:50.833500+08:00","text":"我完完全全同意啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:50.833500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:53.654000+08:00","text":"挑撥離間！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:53.654000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:56.474500+08:00","text":"要不然未來的食安工作，完全沒有辦法讓食安人員盡心盡力去查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:56.474500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:18:59.295000+08:00","text":"請守護食安人員的尊嚴，不要打擊他們的士氣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-02-23T16:18:59.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:19:03.098000+08:00","text":"謝謝王委員育敏的質詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-02-23T16:19:03.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-02-23T16:19:09.583000+08:00","text":"再次跟院會報告，這次是專案的食安問題報告，採用即問即答，要拜託委員跟官員之間互相尊重，共同遵守相關質詢規定，再次感謝大家。","quality":0.382},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-02-23T16:19:10.083000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-02-23T16:19:14.368714+08:00","text":"接下來我們請何委員欣純質詢，謝謝。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}