{"error":false,"id":["149336"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149336,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149336","日期":"2024-03-06","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-3","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":3,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-06T09:40:14+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-06T09:51:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:49","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/aa454a369d2b172fd5ff7b9f49a548f71e2be856f0c9cef9f8ba9b0039caa7a63b970c124de97d675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:40:14 - 09:51:03","會議時間":"2024-03-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":369,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時40分）主席、各位官員還有委員同事們，大家早安。我也想請部長，你好。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們知道這個MOU是外交部去簽署的，然後是你來執行嘛……"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：昨天外交部給我們的報告就這樣一頁，字非常大，相信很遠的地方都看得到這個字，不到一頁啦！所以我想還是請問部長好了，我們跟印度簽署這個MOU，我們有一些利益關係、利益互換嗎？"],["許部長銘春：利益互換？沒有！就是勞務合作、單純的勞務合作，沒有利益互換。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們可以看到這兩件事，不知道您覺得是否有關聯？因為我們2023年在孟買設了一個經濟文化辦事處，2024年就簽署MOU，這兩件事有沒有什麼關係？"],["許部長銘春：委員，應該是沒關係，其實我們跟印度之間的勞務合作是比較後面的，我記得好像經濟、包括農業什麼，他們在之前都已經簽署MOU、有合作關係，我們勞務的部分是在2020年底的時候才開始。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，沒關係！因為之前我們曾經有前例，告訴國人說只要我們進口萊豬、萊牛，我們入CPTPP就有優勢，結果我們後來也沒有入，所以我們很希望這次的簽署是一個很對等而且很互惠的關係。我也想請問部長，您認為MOU是一個協定還是一個……"],["許部長銘春：它是一個協定。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，你覺得它對我們國人的權利義務有影響嗎？或是社會、經濟、外交、治安層面等等有影響嗎？"],["許部長銘春：目前我們MOU的部分都有做過評估，就是不會有影響，所以我們才會簽署，之後……"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來看一下，根據民國104年的條約締結法，剛剛您所提到的有涉及，因為其實有很多書面報告裡面講到對我們的經濟可能有什麼衝擊、外交有什麼衝擊等等，其實它涉及的就是我們國家的重要事項，所以您認為它是一個條約還是一個協定？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們認為它是協定，過去其實我們MOU都是單純的……"],["陳委員菁徽：如果您覺得內容沒有涉及這麼多國防、外交、財政、經濟等等，怎麼今天這麼多人出現在同一個場合？"],["許部長銘春：因為委員會重視這個議題。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，其實我們上一次簽訂MOU是20年前，這邊有一張陳菊簽署的MOU，這已經是20年前了，所以104年為了我們跟國際之間能更好、更保障國人的權益而有條約締結法，我們也很希望勞動部未來可以就這些談判的方針、爭議等等適度跟立法院報告，向立法院相關委會說明，之後送到立法院，我們也會嚴加審視。剛剛已經有很多委員提到，我也想知道現在外籍的失聯移工，部長您認為是變多還是變少？"],["許部長銘春：在111年的時候，人數增加特別多。"],["陳委員菁徽：有，剛剛講到疫情。"],["許部長銘春：對，因為隨著邊境的管制已經解除了，移工可以正常引進，還加上我們有做一些配套……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，結果我們……"],["許部長銘春：所以我們有漸漸地下降。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的結論就是趨緩嘛？跟新聞寫的一樣是趨緩，大家來看一下實際的數字，我們是綜合移民署跟勞動部的數字，失聯的移工從108年、109年、110年，111年爆增3萬，但111年、112年你說趨緩，這個數字難以置信，這是兩個大巨蛋的人數。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我講的趨緩是指失聯率，因為會跟進來的人數有關，我是說……"],["陳委員菁徽：因為本來是3萬，後來是6,000，所以是趨緩？"],["許部長銘春：不是，報告委員，你看109、110、111年，這個都剛好是疫情的時候，所以那個人數都是增加，尤其到111年時，你看就增加了，其實我們那一年也是增加了4萬1,000啦，所以要看那個失聯率，失聯率就是說將總數跟失聯的人數去比，這樣去比會比較客觀一點，不能單看人數，所以如果……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以部長您覺得最高比例失聯的是哪一類的移工？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，就是111年，最高的就是5.96。"],["陳委員菁徽：但事實上它是上升，不是減少嘛，對吧？它是上升，只是趨緩，它是上升，結論還是上升。"],["許部長銘春：委員，不好意思，去年才趨緩，112年才趨緩，我是看那個失聯率，你看人數當然好像覺得增加，但是其實你要看112年那個數字，我們進來的人數是增加的。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也分享一下我臨床上實際看到的案例，因為大家知道我過去是長期在醫院執業，所以我們會有移工，這些沒有身分的人，有好幾萬人被我發現癌症，他可能勉強稍微自費看一下病，跪著求可不可以在臺灣治病，不要舉報他等等，他付不出任何錢。也有移工懷孕生小孩，這些小孩根本沒有打疫苗，孕婦也沒有產檢，帶著小孩連夜逃跑，都是假身分喔。還有他們也會群聚、喝酒，性侵不小心懷孕，這些都有，都變成醫院的呆帳，如果說我們勞動部現在沒有辦法解決我們沒有降低的移工失聯問題，我們要如何迎接更多的移工？我們也要為他們的工作權益保障，這也是我們國家形象很嚴重的一環嘛。"],["許部長銘春：對，所以報告委員，針對要如何來降低這個失聯率，我們也在努力啦，所以包括說我們的國安團隊，像去年就查獲了2萬7,000人，所以……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你為了改善他們的工作環境，剛剛陳昭姿委員……"],["許部長銘春：包括未來我們也會針對譬如說，因為移工他們進來大概都是透過仲介，當地的仲介如果他失聯率高，我們會停權，未來我們也會加重裁罰僱用失聯移工的雇主，還有仲介，我們都會加重裁罰。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛有講到為了改善移工的環境，剛剛陳昭姿委員也有質詢，所以直聘中心是你們一個很重點的指標對嗎？直聘中心可以幫助到什麼？"],["許部長銘春：直聘就是節省他委託仲介的一些費用嘛。"],["陳委員菁徽：我這邊有一本112年移工管理及運用調查報告，我從108年一直讀到112年，部長，你有看過這個移工管理及運用調查報告嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個報告沒有，您那個報告我沒有看到。"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛講到直聘中心完全沒有落實，大家可以看到，我們從108到110年到111年，雇主知道直聘中心的比例都沒有進步，都沒有增漲，大家根本不知道有這件事耶。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個我們都有在宣導啦。"],["陳委員菁徽：你有在宣導，但是好像沒效嘛。"],["許部長銘春：但是閱聽大眾他是不是有看到……但是我要跟委員說明，其實我們現在移工的引進，雇主他可以自行招聘，他可以透過仲介，也可以透由我們的直聘。"],["陳委員菁徽：主席，不好意思，再給我2分鐘。"],["許部長銘春：所以這個我們也要尊重雇主的選擇。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們看一下112年，因為我看了4年，112年「知道有直聘中心」的突然暴增，但是在「知道」裡面居然還分了一類叫「知道但不清楚有哪些措施」，你也把它歸成「知道」，這是什麼神邏輯？你沒有辦法改變宣傳的方法，讓更多人知道，然後你去改變問卷的方法，你自己可以接受這樣子的問卷嗎？「知道但不清楚有哪些措施」，我知道，我在新聞上有看過蘇丹紅，但我不知道蘇丹紅是什麼，這樣也把它歸成「知道」，然後突然從50%變成72%，結果你扣掉「知道但不清楚哪些措施」的人，根本只剩下30%的雇主知道，完全是在下降，根本沒有宣導啊！所以剛剛有講到直聘中心，我們很想宣傳直聘中心，結果大家看直聘中心的比例，真的有用到直聘中心的比例是2018年1.6%，2023年1.7%，然後每年我們是4.000多萬的預算花在直聘中心耶。如果我在裡面上班，我可能都覺得很沒有成就感，進來這麼多人，結果真的利用我的服務的人是1.6%。所以2018到2023如果完全沒有改善的話，我們是不是要全面的去檢討這個方案是不是真的適合改善我們移工的生活方式、工作環境？"],["許部長銘春：這個就是讓聘僱移工多一個選擇，就是雇主多一個選擇啦。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是這個選擇沒有進展啊。"],["許部長銘春：對，當然這個會牽涉到，就像我剛剛講的，譬如說能夠透過直聘，有些是沒有辦法，像印尼的看護工就沒辦法。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後，部長我直接提一個……"],["許部長銘春：但是我認為我們是要努力再來把它讓大家能夠知道，然後願意來使用，這是我們要來做的。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，但是已經努力很多年了嘛。","最後，我提一個很簡單的建議啦，剛剛陳昭姿委員也有講到申辦文件複雜，剛剛他夯不啷噹列出10幾項，你看認為申辦文件複雜的，從110年45%，到112年42%，改變文件的申辦是一個3年內應該做得到的事情，這一點我們也希望未來我們能有一個書面報告來呈現我們應該要怎麼改善這整個直聘中心，不然就乾脆不要成立了。好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢。","接下來我們請涂權吉委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-3","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王正旭","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","盧縣一","楊曜","劉建國","林淑芬","謝衣鳯","李彥秀","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","洪申翰","游顥","洪孟楷","蔡易餘","羅智強","陳瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":125,"meetingDate":["2024-03-06"],"gazette_id":"1130701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1130701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、外交部、勞動力發展署、衛生福利部、內政部、國家安全局就「我國開放印度\n移工對本國勞工就業市場之衝擊」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1130701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":4.418468750000001,"end":9.73409375,"speaker_score":0.738},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":9.801593750000002,"end":10.67909375,"speaker_score":0.738},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"許部長銘春","start":14.30721875,"end":14.914718750000002,"speaker_score":0.948},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":15.285968750000002,"end":15.69096875,"speaker_score":0.738},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":15.74159375,"end":16.93971875,"speaker_score":0.738},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":18.32346875,"e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被我發現癌症他可能勉強稍微自費看一下病跪著求可謂在台灣治病不要舉報他等等他付不出任何錢也有移工懷孕生小孩這些小孩根本沒有打疫苗孕婦也沒有產檢帶著小孩連夜逃跑都是假身份喔還有他們也會群聚喝酒性侵不小心懷孕這些"},{"start":376.423,"end":376.583,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":395.396,"end":418.322,"text":"所以報告委員我們也針對要如何來降低這個失聯率我們也在努力所以包括說我們的國安團隊像去年就查獲了兩萬七千人所以你為了改善他們工作環境：陳菁徽﹚包括未來我們也會針對比如說因為他們移工大概進來都透過仲介那當地的仲介如果他失聯率高我們會停權"},{"start":419.642,"end":431.41,"text":"那未來我們也會加重僱用這10年的移工的僱主還有仲介剛剛有講到說為了改善移工的環境所以執聘中心陳昭智委員也有質詢執聘中心是你們一個很重點的指標對嗎執聘中心可以幫助到什麼"},{"start":438.092,"end":446.937,"text":"我這邊有一本112年移工管理及運用調查報告我從108年一直讀到112年部長你有看過這個移工管理及運用調查報告嗎?"},{"start":459.249,"end":474.379,"text":"剛講到說執聘中心完全沒有落實大家可以看到說我們從108到110年到111年僱主知道執聘中心的比例都沒有進步欸都沒有增長欸大家根本不知道這件事欸"},{"start":476.188,"end":493.935,"text":"這個報告委員我們都有在宣導你有在宣導但是好像沒笑但是這個就是因為聽大眾他是不是有看但是我要跟委員說明因為其實我們現在移工的引進僱主他第一個他可以自行招聘他可以透過中介他也可以"},{"start":494.738,"end":494.898,"text":"主席再給我2分鐘"},{"start":525.698,"end":549.629,"text":"這個你自己可以接受這樣子的問卷嗎知道但不清楚有哪些措施我知道我在新聞上有看過蘇丹紅但我不知道蘇丹紅是什麼這樣也把它歸成知道然後突然從50%變成72%結果你扣掉知道但不清楚有哪些措施根本只剩30%雇主知道完全是在下降根本沒有宣導啊所以剛剛有講到說執聘中心"},{"start":551.19,"end":572.791,"text":"我們很想宣傳執聘中心結果大家看執聘中心的比例真的有用到執聘中心的比例是2018年1.6%2023年1.7%然後每年我們是4000多萬的預算花在執聘中心欸如果我在裡面上班我可能都覺得很沒有成就感進來這麼多人結果真的利用我的服務的人是1.6%"},{"start":575.606,"end":588.951,"text":"這個齁"},{"start":589.652,"end":613.637,"text":"這個就是讓聘僱移工多一個選擇啦就僱主多一個選擇啦可是這個選擇沒有競爭當然這個會牽涉到就像我剛剛講的比如說能夠透過職聘有些是沒有辦法像印尼的就沒辦法但是我跟你說我們是要努力再來把它讓大家都知道然後願意來使用這個是我們要來做的"},{"start":614.437,"end":622.9,"text":"當然已經努力很多年了嘛那最後提一個很簡單的建議啦剛剛陳昭智委員也有講到說申辦文件複雜他剛剛夯不啷啷列出十幾項你看認為申辦文件複雜的從110年45%到112年42%改變文件的申辦是一個應該三年內應該做得到的事情這點我們也希望未來我們有一個書面報告來呈現我們應該要怎麼改善這個整個執聘中心不然就乾脆不要成立嘛"},{"start":643.848,"end":644.089,"text":"陳菁徽委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:18.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:40:21.539000+08:00","text":"主席、各位官員還有委員同事們，大家早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:21.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:40:23.302000+08:00","text":"我也想請部長，你好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:23.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:40:23.903000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:23.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:40:23.963000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:24.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:40:39.037000+08:00","text":"我們知道這個MOU是外交部去簽署的，然後是你來執行嘛……是。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:40.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:40:47.759000+08:00","text":"昨天外交部給我們的報告就這樣一頁，字非常大，相信很遠的地方都看得到這個字，不到一頁啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:48.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:40:54.960000+08:00","text":"所以我想還是請問部長好了，我們跟印度簽署這個MOU，我們有一些利益關係、利益互換嗎？","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:54.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:40:55.660000+08:00","text":"利益互換？沒有！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:55.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:40:59.510000+08:00","text":"就是勞務合作、單純的勞務合作，沒有利益互換。","quality":0.211},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:40:59.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:41:01.852000+08:00","text":"我們可以看到這兩件事，不知道您覺得是否有關聯？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:41:01.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:41:04.475000+08:00","text":"因為我們2023年在孟買設了一個經濟文化辦事處，2024年就簽署MOU，這兩件事有沒有什麼關係？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:41:23.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:41:41.788000+08:00","text":"委員，應該是沒關係，其實我們跟印度之間的勞務合作是比較後面的，我記得好像經濟、包括農業什麼，他們在之前都已經簽署MOU、有合作關係，我們勞務的部分是在2020年底的時候才開始。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:41:41.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:41:41.828000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:41:43.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:42:02.521000+08:00","text":"因為之前我們曾經有前例，告訴國人說只要我們進口萊豬、萊牛，我們入CPTPP就有優勢，結果我們後來也沒有入，所以我們很希望這次的簽署是一個很對等而且很互惠的關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:42:02.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:42:03.482000+08:00","text":"我也想請問部長，您認為MOU是一個協定還是一個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:42:09.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:42:10.247000+08:00","text":"它是一個協定。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:42:11.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:42:16.211000+08:00","text":"是，你覺得它對我們國人的權利義務有影響嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:42:16.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:42:20.935000+08:00","text":"或是社會、經濟、外交、治安層面等等有影響嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:42:20.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:42:28.340000+08:00","text":"目前我們MOU的部分都有做過評估，就是不會有影響，所以我們才會簽署，之後……","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:42:28.340000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:42:41.887000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，根據民國104年的條約締結法，剛剛您所提到的有涉及，因為其實有很多書面報告裡面講到對我們的經濟可能有什麼衝擊、外交有什麼衝擊等等，其實它涉及的就是我們國家的重要事項，所以您認為它是一個條約還是一個協定？","quality":0.235},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:42:41.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:42:55.434000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們認為它是協定，過去其實我們MOU都是單純的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:42:55.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:42:58.416000+08:00","text":"如果您覺得內容沒有涉及這麼多國防、外交、財政、經濟等等，怎麼今天這麼多人出現在同一個場合？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:42:58.416000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:43:12.067000+08:00","text":"因為委員會重視這個議題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:43:12.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:43:49.248000+08:00","text":"是，其實我們上一次簽訂MOU是20年前，這邊有一張陳菊簽署的MOU，這已經是20年前了，所以104年為了我們跟國際之間能更好、更保障國人的權益而有條約締結法，我們也很希望勞動部未來可以就這些談判的方針、爭議等等適度跟立法院報告，向立法院相關委會說明，之後送到立法院，我們也會嚴加審視。","quality":0.653},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:43:50.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:43:55.651000+08:00","text":"剛剛已經有很多委員提到，我也想知道現在外籍的失聯移工，部長您認為是變多還是變少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:43:59.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:44:03.984000+08:00","text":"在111年的時候，人數增加特別多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:44:04.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:44:05.366000+08:00","text":"有，剛剛講到疫情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:44:05.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:44:15.014000+08:00","text":"對，因為隨著邊境的管制已經解除了，移工可以正常引進，還加上我們有做一些配套……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:44:15.014000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:44:16.596000+08:00","text":"對，結果我們……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:44:16.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:44:18.537000+08:00","text":"所以我們有漸漸地下降。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:44:18.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:44:20.659000+08:00","text":"所以你的結論就是趨緩嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:44:20.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:44:35.812000+08:00","text":"跟新聞寫的一樣是趨緩，大家來看一下實際的數字，我們是綜合移民署跟勞動部的數字，失聯的移工從108年、109年、110年，111年爆增3萬，但111年、112年你說趨緩，這個數字難以置信，這是兩個大巨蛋的人數。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:44:50.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:44:54.951000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我講的趨緩是指失聯率，因為會跟進來的人數有關，我是說……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:44:54.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:44:59.334000+08:00","text":"因為本來是3萬，後來是6,000，所以是趨緩？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:44:59.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:45:09.700000+08:00","text":"不是，報告委員，你看109、110、111年，這個都剛好是疫情的時候，所以那個人數都是增加，尤其到111年時，你看就增加了，其實我們那一年也是增加了4萬1,000啦，所以要看那個失聯率，失聯率就是說將總數跟失聯的人數去比，這樣去比會比較客觀一點，不能單看人數，所以如果……","quality":0.359},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:45:12.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:45:14.773000+08:00","text":"所以部長您覺得最高比例失聯的是哪一類的移工？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:45:14.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:45:16.654000+08:00","text":"報告委員，就是111年，最高的就是5.96。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:45:33.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:45:33.688000+08:00","text":"但事實上它是上升，不是減少嘛，對吧？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:45:33.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:45:34.209000+08:00","text":"它是上升，只是趨緩，它是上升，結論還是上升。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:45:34.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:45:54.017000+08:00","text":"委員，不好意思，去年才趨緩，112年才趨緩，我是看那個失聯率，你看人數當然好像覺得增加，但是其實你要看112年那個數字，我們進來的人數是增加的。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:45:54.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:46:16.116000+08:00","text":"我也分享一下我臨床上實際看到的案例，因為大家知道我過去是長期在醫院執業，所以我們會有移工，這些沒有身分的人，有好幾萬人被我發現癌症，他可能勉強稍微自費看一下病，跪著求可不可以在臺灣治病，不要舉報他等等，他付不出任何錢。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:46:16.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:46:24.480000+08:00","text":"也有移工懷孕生小孩，這些小孩根本沒有打疫苗，孕婦也沒有產檢，帶著小孩連夜逃跑，都是假身分喔。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:46:24.480000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:46:36.938000+08:00","text":"還有他們也會群聚、喝酒，性侵不小心懷孕，這些都有，都變成醫院的呆帳，如果說我們勞動部現在沒有辦法解決我們沒有降低的移工失聯問題，我們要如何迎接更多的移工？","quality":0.271},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:46:36.938000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:46:49.396000+08:00","text":"我們也要為他們的工作權益保障，這也是我們國家形象很嚴重的一環嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:46:49.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:46:59.419000+08:00","text":"對，所以報告委員，針對要如何來降低這個失聯率，我們也在努力啦，所以包括說我們的國安團隊，像去年就查獲了2萬7,000人，所以……","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:47:00.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:47:03.240000+08:00","text":"所以你為了改善他們的工作環境，剛剛陳昭姿委員……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:47:03.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:47:18.605000+08:00","text":"包括未來我們也會針對譬如說，因為移工他們進來大概都是透過仲介，當地的仲介如果他失聯率高，我們會停權，未來我們也會加重裁罰僱用失聯移工的雇主，還有仲介，我們都會加重裁罰。","quality":0.753},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:47:18.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:47:24.689000+08:00","text":"剛剛有講到為了改善移工的環境，剛剛陳昭姿委員也有質詢，所以直聘中心是你們一個很重點的指標對嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:47:24.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:47:25.410000+08:00","text":"直聘中心可以幫助到什麼？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:47:25.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:47:32.092000+08:00","text":"直聘就是節省他委託仲介的一些費用嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:47:32.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:47:40.937000+08:00","text":"我這邊有一本112年移工管理及運用調查報告，我從108年一直讀到112年，部長，你有看過這個移工管理及運用調查報告嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:47:40.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:47:53.249000+08:00","text":"這個報告沒有，您那個報告我沒有看到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:47:53.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:48:08.359000+08:00","text":"剛剛講到直聘中心完全沒有落實，大家可以看到，我們從108到110年到111年，雇主知道直聘中心的比例都沒有進步，都沒有增漲，大家根本不知道有這件事耶。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:48:10.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:48:11.969000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個我們都有在宣導啦。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:48:11.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:48:13.649000+08:00","text":"你有在宣導，但是好像沒效嘛。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:48:14.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:48:27.915000+08:00","text":"但是閱聽大眾他是不是有看到……但是我要跟委員說明，其實我們現在移工的引進，雇主他可以自行招聘，他可以透過仲介，也可以透由我們的直聘。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:48:28.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:48:28.898000+08:00","text":"主席，不好意思，再給我2分鐘。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:48:28.898000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:48:44.298000+08:00","text":"所以這個我們也要尊重雇主的選擇。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:48:44.298000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:48:59.698000+08:00","text":"我們看一下112年，因為我看了4年，112年「知道有直聘中心」的突然暴增，但是在「知道」裡面居然還分了一類叫「知道但不清楚有哪些措施」，你也把它歸成「知道」，這是什麼神邏輯？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:48:59.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:49:01.679000+08:00","text":"你沒有辦法改變宣傳的方法，讓更多人知道，然後你去改變問卷的方法，你自己可以接受這樣子的問卷嗎？","quality":0.326},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:49:01.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:49:20.468000+08:00","text":"「知道但不清楚有哪些措施」，我知道，我在新聞上有看過蘇丹紅，但我不知道蘇丹紅是什麼，這樣也把它歸成「知道」，然後突然從50%變成72%，結果你扣掉「知道但不清楚哪些措施」的人，根本只剩下30%的雇主知道，完全是在下降，根本沒有宣導啊！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:49:21.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:49:39.885000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛有講到直聘中心，我們很想宣傳直聘中心，結果大家看直聘中心的比例，真的有用到直聘中心的比例是2018年1.6%，2023年1.7%，然後每年我們是4.000多萬的預算花在直聘中心耶。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:49:41.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:49:46.791000+08:00","text":"如果我在裡面上班，我可能都覺得很沒有成就感，進來這麼多人，結果真的利用我的服務的人是1.6%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:49:46.791000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:03.652000+08:00","text":"所以2018到2023如果完全沒有改善的話，我們是不是要全面的去檢討這個方案是不是真的適合改善我們移工的生活方式、工作環境？","quality":0.039},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:03.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:08.153000+08:00","text":"這個就是讓聘僱移工多一個選擇，就是雇主多一個選擇啦。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:08.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:09.293000+08:00","text":"可是這個選擇沒有進展啊。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:10.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:18.975000+08:00","text":"對，當然這個會牽涉到，就像我剛剛講的，譬如說能夠透過直聘，有些是沒有辦法，像印尼的看護工就沒辦法。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:18.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:19.995000+08:00","text":"最後，部長我直接提一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:19.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:27.617000+08:00","text":"但是我認為我們是要努力再來把它讓大家能夠知道，然後願意來使用，這是我們要來做的。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:28.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:29.737000+08:00","text":"是，但是已經努力很多年了嘛。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:30.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:36.860000+08:00","text":"最後，我提一個很簡單的建議啦，剛剛陳昭姿委員也有講到申辦文件複雜，剛剛他夯不啷噹列出10幾項，你看認為申辦文件複雜的，從110年45%，到112年42%，改變文件的申辦是一個3年內應該做得到的事情，這一點我們也希望未來我們能有一個書面報告來呈現我們應該要怎麼改善這整個直聘中心，不然就乾脆不要成立了。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:36.860000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:47.354000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許部長銘春","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:47.354000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:57.848000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:57.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-06T09:50:58.089000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-06T09:50:58.589000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-06T09:51:02.874714+08:00","text":"接下來我們請涂權吉委員進行質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}