{"error":false,"id":["149524"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149524,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149524","日期":"2024-03-07","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-07T11:07:07+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-07T11:20:59+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe2629bb021b39aed43ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a6cb827e0de0bb25275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:07:07 - 11:20:59","會議時間":"2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時7分）謝謝主席，請經濟部王部長，能源署游署長。"],["主席：請王部長和能源署。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，離岸風電算是再生能源重要的內涵，如果離岸風電能夠確實達標，對能源轉型有很大的幫助。目前離岸風電已經執行三期，我們也希望透過離岸風電協助國內產業，讓它國產化，對不對？中鋼公司成立一家興達海基，你知道在哪裡嗎？"],["王部長美花：是！在興達港那邊。"],["邱委員志偉：就在本席的選區，本席每天都會去幫你巡視。興達海基肩負南部離岸風電的重要龍頭責任，還要協助南部在地廠商做到國產化。北部已經有一家了，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：所以現在南部、北部嚴重失衡。你了解興達海基目前的狀況嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們有密切和他們聯繫，興達海基……"],["邱委員志偉：請你說一下目前興達海基的狀況。部長，你要了解，這個問題很嚴重。"],["王部長美花：我有注意。"],["邱委員志偉：你有注意，但是你不夠了解啊！這件事本席最了解。例如要投入多少成本？設立電廠是不是需要四、五十億元？差不多嘛！"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：一開始會有學習曲線，每接一個案子不見得會有利潤，也有可能會虧損，對不對？因為還需要長時間學習。但沃旭的訂單卻一減再減，最後是交幾件Jacket？"],["王部長美花：6座。"],["邱委員志偉：原先的訂單是幾座？"],["王部長美花：最早是56座。"],["邱委員志偉：從56座變成6座，你知道虧損多少錢嗎？虧損很多錢啦！再來，中能是中鋼集團的離岸風電公司，中能有幾座？"],["王部長美花：中能的風場就順利很多。"],["邱委員志偉：他們有賺錢嗎？因為他們還在學習曲線的過程，所以他們也是虧損。這兩件做完之後，你們要協助國內的企業，特別是中鋼成立的興達海基，全力達成離岸風電的目標，其中國營事業義不容辭扮演重要的角色，所以你們要協助他們，讓國產化的目標到位，讓興達海基有競爭力，這樣才能協助我國能源轉型。但國營事業也不能只配合，因為中鋼是上市公司，它也要對股東負責。"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：之後有沒有訂單？"],["王部長美花：我們有讓他們和另外一家一起配合，來做結合。"],["邱委員志偉：另外兩家啦！就是南方聯盟嘛！這些本席比你更清楚。"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：南方聯盟的問題是，雖然他們這個聯盟組成了，但訂單一樣要給興達海基啊！訂單從哪邊來？台電、中油的代表在不在？也在啊！台電、中油要不要做離岸風電？"],["王部長美花：他們有參與中能，還有去找……"],["邱委員志偉：他們兩家公司也和另外一家公司共同合資，要做離岸風電。"],["王部長美花：就是3.1的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：離岸風電是否需要Jacket？"],["王部長美花：要啊！"],["邱委員志偉：他們向誰下單？因為台電、中油的股份占了將近50%，這個訂單給誰？是國內還是國外？照理說，以合理的邏輯推演，國營事業要挺國營事業，對不對？台電、中油要做Jacket，做離岸風電的水下機組，訂單為什麼沒有給興達海基？"],["王部長美花：應該說還沒有下訂單，不是不給興達海基做。"],["邱委員志偉：這不是正確答案喔！請教署長，你的理解是什麼？"],["游署長振偉：這有關整體的供需，我們是從國內整體來看，國內有兩個供應體系，開發商會去做綜合評估，評估完就會下單。"],["邱委員志偉：台電、中油也算開發商，對不對？"],["游署長振偉：是的，也算開發商。"],["邱委員志偉：開發商應該要有一定的政策引導能力，因為如果沒有辦法將全部訂單都給南部的公司，就會變的獨厚北部，你們要把獨厚北部的原因找出來。現在應該是要發展成南北雙雄，是雙引擎，結果南部引擎全部熄火。台電、中油做為一個開發商，大概也占了50%的股份，你們沒有決定權把一些訂單交給興達海基嗎？據本席的了解是連一座都沒有，怎麼會變成這樣？"],["游署長振偉：現在海……"],["邱委員志偉：你們要國營事業支持離岸風電，現在卻讓他們自生自滅，離岸風電的計畫如何達標？據本席了解，他們都已經下訂單了，但是沒有給興達海基。台電、中油的總經理都在，你們兩家公司的投資將近50%。"],["王總經理耀庭：台電投資20%，中油投資20%。"],["邱委員志偉：這樣就是40%。有40%的股份應該有一定的影響力吧？例如要蓋40座，你們能不能用控股的影響力，最起碼撥10座、20座給中鋼的興達海基？部長，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：目前這個投資合作案還在公司內，還沒有送出去，所以未來……"],["邱委員志偉：最後的結果可能就是全部集中在北部啦！如果沒有政策引導、支持，如果按照台電、中油和另外一家合資廠商的決策，一座都不可能給興達海基做啦！怎麼辦？中鋼的興達海基未來3、4年會有訂單嗎？連台電、中油加起來投資40%的公司，都不支持中鋼的興達海基，那麼問題來了，其他開發商有可能支持嗎？連自己的兄弟台電、中油都不相挺，其他開發商要怎麼相挺？他們會向興達海基下單嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：商務的部分我們再好好研究一下。"],["邱委員志偉：國營事業要相挺啦！成立興達海基也是為了響應政府能源轉型，由國營事業帶頭成立南方聯盟，追求國產化，讓離岸風電能在南臺灣落地生根、成長茁壯，到現在幾年了？從2018年到現在，你想想看5年虧損了多少錢？未來還要虧損多少？如果沒有政策支持、引導的話。部長，請你做政策宣示。"],["王部長美花：回去後我會了解一下相關情形，因為部分取決於商業談判。至於委員說的，如何提供相關的政策協助，這部分我會注意。"],["邱委員志偉：這會有示範效果，連國營事業都不相挺，其他離岸風電的開發商會不會效法？"],["王部長美花：我會注意一下相關情形。"],["邱委員志偉：要很注意，不是注意一下而已。"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，興達電廠燃氣將混5%氫氣發電，曾次長，我們有一起去主持動土典禮，如果2024年興達電廠混氫燃氣要提前達標，你們有沒有更具體的計畫？國外電廠都可以達到50%，興達電廠什麼時候也可以達到？"],["曾次長文生：你剛才說的第一件事，就是達到5%以上，其實我們現在已經測試過10%的混燒，這是第一件事。第二件事是要達到50%，這要和那個機組能夠相匹配，因為在興達電廠，我們現在主要是測試氫的供應等相關的周邊問題。以我們的機組來說，您也知道興達舊款的機組設計時間比較早，所以我們需要花時間去校正，調整出數字以後，必須是適合的機組才能達到50%的目標。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這是一個好的起點，你們要持續去做。王部長，你要請中油、台電共同合作，把過去燃煤的興達電廠變成永續零碳的示範電廠，這樣才能確保茄定、湖內、路竹等當地居民的健康，也才能達到追求永續零碳的示範作用。部長，你有沒有什麼……"],["王部長美花：這個就是我們在努力的方向，我們也希望讓這個燃煤電廠轉型。"],["邱委員志偉：所以舊燃煤1號、2號機組，2023年已經除役，是除役後就不會再運轉？還是雖然除役，但還是備用？"],["王部長美花：它是警備機組，就是除役了，原則上沒有使用。"],["邱委員志偉：請教你，3、4號機組今年年底也要轉備用嗎？"],["王部長美花：都轉成警備機組。"],["邱委員志偉：所以四座都轉成備用機組？"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：當初你說的是1號、2號除役喔！除役就是不使用了。"],["王部長美花：事實上從除役到現在，確實都沒有運轉過，因為它的……"],["邱委員志偉：什麼樣的狀況下會運轉？"],["王部長美花：條件非常嚴格，只有符合條件才會啟動。"],["邱委員志偉：本席可不可以這樣說，這些機組雖然是備用，但是形同除役，運轉的可能性微乎其微。因為本席必須回去向鄉親說明，他們很怕你們又找理由燃煤。不會吧？"],["王部長美花：不會。原則上如果不符合那個嚴格的條件，這些機組就不會使用，這其實是從國家安全角度設計的。"],["邱委員志偉：去年通過的疫後條例，我們針對用電的補貼也花了500億元。"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：今年有沒有針對這部分編列預算？因為這個條例是到2025年。"],["王部長美花：疫後的經費總共是317億元，這筆經費會用到2025年，目前都還在持續受理相關的申請案。"],["邱委員志偉：主席站起來了，再1分鐘。所以那個增資案會順利完成嗎？"],["王部長美花：台電的通過了。"],["邱委員志偉：台電的董事會通過，部裡面也同意了？"],["王部長美花：對，500億元那部分通過了。"],["邱委員志偉：明年還會繼續增資嗎？"],["王部長美花：明年我們會爭取補貼。"],["邱委員志偉：同樣面對財務問題的中油也有這個需求啊！你們還是要審慎考量。"],["王部長美花：中油的部分，我們內部也會討論。"],["邱委員志偉：工會也在看。因為你們改善了台電的財務結構、財務體質，中油也一樣財政困難，他們也提出增資的需求，為什麼會有不同標準？"],["王部長美花：我們的做法是例如中油賣LNG給台電，我們就讓他們十足反映成本，這個部分就可以讓中油不要再一直虧損，至於其他的措施，我們會檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這次就沒有增資的必要？"],["王部長美花：目前我們有和中油內部討論，我們內部也有做一些調整，這些我們內部都會詳細討論。"],["邱委員志偉：方總，你同意部長的說法嗎？"],["方總經理振仁：事實上中油公司的虧損也滿巨大的，目前的負債比是90%，所以我們還是希望能夠增資啦！"],["邱委員志偉：所以董事會還是希望能夠增資嘛！但部長不同意啊！"],["王部長美花：不是不同意。確實，對於台電、中油，我們都希望他們可以財務穩健，所以我們會做整體的考量。"],["邱委員志偉：用什麼方法都沒有關係啦！但也要改善財務結構，因為財務穩健最重要啦！"],["王部長美花：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：請部長提供詳細的資料給委員，謝謝。","接下來請陳委員超明發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-2","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","鄭天財Sra 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這個臥序這個訂單一撿再撿最後到交出幾件的這個Jacket6座是原先是幾座原先訂單是幾座最早是56座56座後來變成6座"},{"start":141.072,"end":169.864,"text":"好,六座快多少錢你知道嗎?很多錢啦齁,很多錢你了解啦齁,花了很多錢再來,中能,中能是這個中鋼自己的這個離岸風電,中能幾座?欸,中能的風潮就順利很多了對啦,他也跟我談及,他還是學習曲線的過程當中嘛,他也了解嘛齁"},{"start":172.234,"end":198.268,"text":"再來 這兩件資料你要協助這個國內的特別是中鋼成立這個新的海基要全力來達成這個離岸封電對不對 國營事業這個一不容死扮演重要角色但你要協助能夠讓這個國產化到位讓這個新的海基有它的競爭力能夠協助能源轉型"},{"start":201.861,"end":228.248,"text":"國營事業不是物質配合但是國營事業也要中鋼也是上市公司他也要對股東負責那你後面有沒有訂單我們有讓他跟另外一家一起配合來做這個結合另外兩家啊南方聯盟嘛這我比你更清楚啦南方聯盟問題是說他們聯盟組成的你訂單也是要下給新達海基啊"},{"start":229.732,"end":255.704,"text":"那訂單從哪邊來?台電、中油在不在?台電、中油是。也在啊。台電、中油要不要做離岸風電?他們就是有參與這個中能的,還有...不是啊,他們自己也要...他們兩家公司也跟另外一家公司共同合資要...這個...有離岸風電嘛。3.1的部分,是。那離岸風電要不要有jacket?要啊,要。那跟誰下?"},{"start":257.619,"end":282.546,"text":"海淀中油這個股份也佔了將近50%這個訂單下給誰?是國內還是國外?還是你照理說我合理的這個邏輯推演國營事業要挺國營事業 對不對?你海淀中油你要做Jacket你要做離岸洪水下機組那你訂單為什麼沒有下給這個新的海基?"},{"start":284.578,"end":294.174,"text":"應該說還沒有下,不是不下給新台海這個不是正確的答案請教一下,署長您的理解是怎麼樣?"},{"start":295.816,"end":317.622,"text":"有關於整體的供需我們大概就國內整體來看那國內有兩個供應體系那開發商他會去做綜合的評估那所以這個評估完成他會做的下單 開發商台電終於也算開發商對不對也算開發商好開發商你應該有一定的政策引導能力你如果沒有辦法全部下給南部你就會獨厚北部"},{"start":318.442,"end":335.008,"text":"他讀後北部的原因你要把他找出來應該是南北雙雄 對不對雙引擎結果南部引擎全部熄火那台電中有做一個開發商你也大概有50%的股份你沒有決定權把一些訂單交給信達海基嗎我了解是一座都沒有這怎麼會變成這樣你讓國營事業來支持離岸風電那你卻讓他自生自滅"},{"start":348.902,"end":360.008,"text":"那離岸風電你要如何達標?據我瞭解 這個訂單都已經下了沒有下給信達海基 那個還能做那個總經理都在"},{"start":361.201,"end":381.31,"text":"你們兩家公司控股投資大概百分之五十,將近百分之五十台電投資百分之二十,中油投資百分之二十那就四十那四十有一定的影響力吧不要說你要蓋四十座你能不能用你的控股的影響力最起碼有十座有二十座給中鋼嘛,給進大海基"},{"start":386.453,"end":408.145,"text":"目前目前因為這個案子還在公司內還沒有送出去就整個投資案合作案還沒有送出公司所以未來最後的結果可能全部集中在北部啦最後的結果如果沒有政策的引導支持的話如果按照台電中油跟另外一家這個合資的廠商去做決策的話"},{"start":409.62,"end":430.678,"text":"一季都沒有可能有新的海基啊那你要怎樣?要重更新的海基?未來3、4年還有長短嗎?連台電、中油、控股的公司、投資40%的公司都沒有支持重更新的海基喔!這樣來啊!那其他台灣省有沒有可能支持?"},{"start":432.454,"end":437.946,"text":"連台灣電力股份有限公司董事長都沒可能消停你其他公司要怎麼消停?要怎麼把新台幣停?"},{"start":442.822,"end":466.614,"text":"這個商務部分我們再來好好研究一下那國營事業要收聽吶這個新唐海自己也是這個響應政府這個營業展行國營事業帶頭來這個帶動南方聯盟在追求國產化讓離岸風電能夠在南台灣落地生根能夠成長茁壯到現在幾年了2018到現在五年時間你虧損了多少錢你看看"},{"start":472.356,"end":477,"text":"未來你還會虧損多少?如果沒有政策的支持、沒有政策的引導的話這個部長你要做個政策的宣示好不好?"},{"start":483.884,"end":501.956,"text":"這個回去我會瞭解一下相關的情形那因為一部分是上業的談判啦齁但是另外委員講的政策可以怎麼樣瞭解跟相關的協助 這個我會來注意一下這個會有示範效果 欸 連國營事業自己兄弟都不修聽以開發商"},{"start":504.537,"end":528.589,"text":"會不會效法?我會來注意一下相關的情形。要注意很多下,不是注意一下而已。是。是。那另外啊新達電廠這個燃氣這個我們混清5%那個那個曾市長我們去主持這個這個凍土嘛齁這個我們一起組成凍土2024要提前達標了齁"},{"start":529.966,"end":544.275,"text":"那未來這個新達電廠混清燃氣的這部分,未來你有沒有什麼更具體的計畫?你要達到這個50%,國外電廠都可以達到50%,那你這個新達電廠什麼時候可以達標到50%?"},{"start":550.233,"end":562.699,"text":"那個跟委員報告首先你剛才講的第一件事就是打5%以上其實我們現在已經測試過10%的混燒了這是第一件事那第二件事是要達到50%要跟那個機組能夠相匹配那因為新打我們現在在測試主要是氫的供應等等相關周邊的問題"},{"start":570.402,"end":597.051,"text":"那機組本身我們選的是相對來講您知道新達的舊款的機組比較他年齡就是說他設計比較早所以我們需要花時間去校正就調出他的數字以後要適合的機組可能才能夠到50%所以這個差的是一個好的起點是的那你們要持續你要請這個經濟部長這個王部長你要請中油台電共同來合作把過去的藍媒的新達電廠"},{"start":599.014,"end":614.075,"text":"把他變成永續零碳的示範電廠這是一個對他們居民健康的一個很大的確保這也是追求這個永續零碳的一個示範作用"},{"start":617.105,"end":631.017,"text":"這個就是我們在努力的方向。我們也希望讓他的燃煤電廠可以怎麼樣去轉型。所以你那個舊燃煤1號、2號2023已經除役了嗎?除役他就不會再運轉了嗎?"},{"start":632.793,"end":634.916,"text":"那這個3、4號今年年底也要轉備用?"},{"start":648.001,"end":673.485,"text":"都轉成警備機組所以事做都轉成備用是當初你說的是1號、2號是要除役喔除役是沒辦法跟委員報告事實上我們從除役到現在確實都沒有運轉過都沒有運轉過因為他的在什麼樣的狀況之下會運轉他的條件非常嚴格才會去啟動他我可不可以這樣說這個雖然是備用但形同除役"},{"start":674.67,"end":684.395,"text":"他這個運轉的可能性微乎其微我要回去跟我的這個鄉親是這樣你又找理由又攔美了"},{"start":685.393,"end":689.914,"text":"我們針對這個用電的補貼我們也花了500億嘛所以用電補貼那今年有沒有針對這部分也編了預算因為這個條例是到2025年"},{"start":717.915,"end":721.501,"text":"議後的總共是317億,這個經費是會用到2025年目前都還在持續受理相關的申請案所以那個曾志案會順利完成嗎?"},{"start":733.66,"end":734.78,"text":"同樣面對財務問題的這個忠友他有這個需求"},{"start":752.448,"end":771.639,"text":"中油部分我們會有內部的一些討論的情形公會也在看你改善了台電的這個財務結構財務這個體制那中油的部分也一樣是有財政的困難那他們提出這個政治的需求那為什麼會有不同標準"},{"start":772.347,"end":773.068,"text":"所以就沒有政治的必要?"},{"start":788.102,"end":810.891,"text":"目前我們有跟中友內部討論我們內部有做一些調整我們會內部會詳細的討論那個方總你同意部長的說法嗎是是報告委員事實上中友公司的虧損也蠻巨大的目前的負債比是90%所以董事會還是希望能夠增資所以我們希望還是能夠增資那部長不同意啊"},{"start":813.953,"end":814.193,"text":"您的資料給委員 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:07:07+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:07:20.555000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請經濟部王部長，能源署游署長。","quality":0.059},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-07T11:07:20.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:07:34.110000+08:00","text":"請王部長和能源署。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:07:34.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:07:37.011000+08:00","text":"部長，離岸風電算是再生能源重要的內涵，如果離岸風電能夠確實達標，對能源轉型有很大的幫助。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:07:37.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:07:39.212000+08:00","text":"目前離岸風電已經執行三期，我們也希望透過離岸風電協助國內產業，讓它國產化，對不對？","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:07:59.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:04.792000+08:00","text":"中鋼公司成立一家興達海基，你知道在哪裡嗎？是！","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:05.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:07.298000+08:00","text":"在興達港那邊。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:07.298000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:12.702000+08:00","text":"就在本席的選區，本席每天都會去幫你巡視。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:12.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:23.630000+08:00","text":"興達海基肩負南部離岸風電的重要龍頭責任，還要協助南部在地廠商做到國產化。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:24.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:26.152000+08:00","text":"北部已經有一家了，對不對？是的。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:26.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:29.474000+08:00","text":"所以現在南部、北部嚴重失衡。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:30.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:33.857000+08:00","text":"你了解興達海基目前的狀況嗎？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:35.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:38.732000+08:00","text":"我們有密切和他們聯繫，興達海基……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:39.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:42.794000+08:00","text":"請你說一下目前興達海基的狀況。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:45.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:46.937000+08:00","text":"部長，你要了解，這個問題很嚴重。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:48.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:48.858000+08:00","text":"我有注意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:48.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:50.699000+08:00","text":"你有注意，但是你不夠了解啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:52.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:52.440000+08:00","text":"這件事本席最了解。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:53.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:54.481000+08:00","text":"例如要投入多少成本？","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:54.481000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:08:57.913500+08:00","text":"設立電廠是不是需要四、五十億元？","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:08:57.913500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:01.346000+08:00","text":"差不多嘛！是的。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:01.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:07.551000+08:00","text":"一開始會有學習曲線，每接一個案子不見得會有利潤，也有可能會虧損，對不對？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:07.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:11.053000+08:00","text":"因為還需要長時間學習。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:14.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:20.740000+08:00","text":"但沃旭的訂單卻一減再減，最後是交幾件Jacket？6座。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:21.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:23.262000+08:00","text":"原先的訂單是幾座？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:24.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:24.843000+08:00","text":"最早是56座。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:24.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:34.155000+08:00","text":"從56座變成6座，你知道虧損多少錢嗎？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:34.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:34.855000+08:00","text":"虧損很多錢啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:38.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:46.199000+08:00","text":"再來，中能是中鋼集團的離岸風電公司，中能有幾座？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:49.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:51.382000+08:00","text":"中能的風場就順利很多。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:51.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:53.883000+08:00","text":"他們有賺錢嗎？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:09:53.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:09:56.143000+08:00","text":"因為他們還在學習曲線的過程，所以他們也是虧損。","quality":0.524},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:00.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:25.248000+08:00","text":"這兩件做完之後，你們要協助國內的企業，特別是中鋼成立的興達海基，全力達成離岸風電的目標，其中國營事業義不容辭扮演重要的角色，所以你們要協助他們，讓國產化的目標到位，讓興達海基有競爭力，這樣才能協助我國能源轉型。","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:30.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:37.503000+08:00","text":"但國營事業也不能只配合，因為中鋼是上市公司，它也要對股東負責。是的。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:38.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:40.384000+08:00","text":"之後有沒有訂單？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:40.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:45.005000+08:00","text":"我們有讓他們和另外一家一起配合，來做結合。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:45.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:45.766000+08:00","text":"另外兩家啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:46.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:47.326000+08:00","text":"就是南方聯盟嘛！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:48.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:48.866000+08:00","text":"這些本席比你更清楚。是的。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:50.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:55.228000+08:00","text":"南方聯盟的問題是，雖然他們這個聯盟組成了，但訂單一樣要給興達海基啊！","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:56.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:58.273000+08:00","text":"訂單從哪邊來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:10:58.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:10:59.333000+08:00","text":"台電、中油的代表在不在？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:02.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:02.635000+08:00","text":"也在啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:03.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:05.196000+08:00","text":"台電、中油要不要做離岸風電？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:05.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:08.097000+08:00","text":"他們有參與中能，還有去找……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:10.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:16.401000+08:00","text":"他們兩家公司也和另外一家公司共同合資，要做離岸風電。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:17.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:17.562000+08:00","text":"就是3.1的部分。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:19.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:21.183000+08:00","text":"離岸風電是否需要Jacket？要啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:22.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:22.684000+08:00","text":"他們向誰下單？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:25.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:30.701000+08:00","text":"因為台電、中油的股份占了將近50%，這個訂單給誰？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:30.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:32.841000+08:00","text":"是國內還是國外？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:34.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:40.443000+08:00","text":"照理說，以合理的邏輯推演，國營事業要挺國營事業，對不對？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:41.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:49.526000+08:00","text":"台電、中油要做Jacket，做離岸風電的水下機組，訂單為什麼沒有給興達海基？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:51.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:53.642000+08:00","text":"應該說還沒有下訂單，不是不給興達海基做。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:55.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:11:57.248000+08:00","text":"這不是正確答案喔！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:11:58.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:01.174000+08:00","text":"請教署長，你的理解是什麼？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"游署長振偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:02.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:14.119000+08:00","text":"這有關整體的供需，我們是從國內整體來看，國內有兩個供應體系，開發商會去做綜合評估，評估完就會下單。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:14.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:15.980000+08:00","text":"台電、中油也算開發商，對不對？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"游署長振偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:15.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:16.240000+08:00","text":"是的，也算開發商。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:17.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:28.123000+08:00","text":"開發商應該要有一定的政策引導能力，因為如果沒有辦法將全部訂單都給南部的公司，就會變的獨厚北部，你們要把獨厚北部的原因找出來。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:28.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:33.525000+08:00","text":"現在應該是要發展成南北雙雄，是雙引擎，結果南部引擎全部熄火。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:34.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:40.867000+08:00","text":"台電、中油做為一個開發商，大概也占了50%的股份，你們沒有決定權把一些訂單交給興達海基嗎？","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:40.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:41.467000+08:00","text":"據本席的了解是連一座都沒有，怎麼會變成這樣？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"游署長振偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:41.467000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:42.467000+08:00","text":"現在海……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:41.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:12:59.824000+08:00","text":"你們要國營事業支持離岸風電，現在卻讓他們自生自滅，離岸風電的計畫如何達標？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:12:59.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:04.046000+08:00","text":"據本席了解，他們都已經下訂單了，但是沒有給興達海基。","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:06.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:12.123000+08:00","text":"台電、中油的總經理都在，你們兩家公司的投資將近50%。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"王總經理耀庭","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:13.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:15.284000+08:00","text":"台電投資20%，中油投資20%。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:15.284000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:17.465000+08:00","text":"這樣就是40%。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:17.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:18.546000+08:00","text":"有40%的股份應該有一定的影響力吧？","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:20.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:28.290000+08:00","text":"例如要蓋40座，你們能不能用控股的影響力，最起碼撥10座、20座給中鋼的興達海基？","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:28.290000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:33.453000+08:00","text":"部長，你知道這件事情嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王總經理耀庭","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:33.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:40.857000+08:00","text":"目前這個投資合作案還在公司內，還沒有送出去，所以未來……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:40.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:43.579000+08:00","text":"最後的結果可能就是全部集中在北部啦！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:46.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:58.402000+08:00","text":"如果沒有政策引導、支持，如果按照台電、中油和另外一家合資廠商的決策，一座都不可能給興達海基做啦！","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:13:59.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:13:59.803000+08:00","text":"怎麼辦？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:14:02.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:14:06.869000+08:00","text":"中鋼的興達海基未來3、4年會有訂單嗎？","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:14:06.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:14:17.658000+08:00","text":"連台電、中油加起來投資40%的公司，都不支持中鋼的興達海基，那麼問題來了，其他開發商有可能支持嗎？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:14:19.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:14:24.285000+08:00","text":"連自己的兄弟台電、中油都不相挺，其他開發商要怎麼相挺？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:14:24.285000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:14:29.822000+08:00","text":"他們會向興達海基下單嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王總經理耀庭","start":"2024-03-07T11:14:29.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:14:31.723000+08:00","text":"商務的部分我們再好好研究一下。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:14:33.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:14:33.484000+08:00","text":"國營事業要相挺啦！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:14:35.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:14:50.333000+08:00","text":"成立興達海基也是為了響應政府能源轉型，由國營事業帶頭成立南方聯盟，追求國產化，讓離岸風電能在南臺灣落地生根、成長茁壯，到現在幾年了？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:14:51.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:14:53.394000+08:00","text":"從2018年到現在，你想想看5年虧損了多少錢？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:14:59.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:15:00.657000+08:00","text":"未來還要虧損多少？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:15:01.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:15:03.360000+08:00","text":"如果沒有政策支持、引導的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:15:03.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:15:03.820000+08:00","text":"部長，請你做政策宣示。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:15:10.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:15:17.128000+08:00","text":"回去後我會了解一下相關情形，因為部分取決於商業談判。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:15:18.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:15:24.033000+08:00","text":"至於委員說的，如何提供相關的政策協助，這部分我會注意。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:15:24.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:15:32.218000+08:00","text":"這會有示範效果，連國營事業都不相挺，其他離岸風電的開發商會不會效法？","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:15:32.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:15:34.419000+08:00","text":"我會注意一下相關情形。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:15:34.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:15:36.780000+08:00","text":"要很注意，不是注意一下而已。是的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:15:38.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:16:06.012000+08:00","text":"另外，興達電廠燃氣將混5%氫氣發電，曾次長，我們有一起去主持動土典禮，如果2024年興達電廠混氫燃氣要提前達標，你們有沒有更具體的計畫？","quality":0.561},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:16:06.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:16:11.255000+08:00","text":"國外電廠都可以達到50%，興達電廠什麼時候也可以達到？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"曾次長文生","start":"2024-03-07T11:16:18.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:16:25.757000+08:00","text":"你剛才說的第一件事，就是達到5%以上，其實我們現在已經測試過10%的混燒，這是第一件事。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"曾次長文生","start":"2024-03-07T11:16:26.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:16:29.699000+08:00","text":"第二件事是要達到50%，這要和那個機組能夠相匹配，因為在興達電廠，我們現在主要是測試氫的供應等相關的周邊問題。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"曾次長文生","start":"2024-03-07T11:16:37.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:16:53.267000+08:00","text":"以我們的機組來說，您也知道興達舊款的機組設計時間比較早，所以我們需要花時間去校正，調整出數字以後，必須是適合的機組才能達到50%的目標。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:16:53.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:16:57.028000+08:00","text":"所以這是一個好的起點，你們要持續去做。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:16:59.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:17:21.055000+08:00","text":"王部長，你要請中油、台電共同合作，把過去燃煤的興達電廠變成永續零碳的示範電廠，這樣才能確保茄定、湖內、路竹等當地居民的健康，也才能達到追求永續零碳的示範作用。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:17:21.055000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:17:24.105000+08:00","text":"部長，你有沒有什麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:17:24.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:17:30.571000+08:00","text":"這個就是我們在努力的方向，我們也希望讓這個燃煤電廠轉型。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:17:31.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:17:37.997000+08:00","text":"所以舊燃煤1號、2號機組，2023年已經除役，是除役後就不會再運轉？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:17:37.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:17:38.997000+08:00","text":"還是雖然除役，但還是備用？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:17:38.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:17:39.997000+08:00","text":"它是警備機組，就是除役了，原則上沒有使用。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:17:39.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:17:41.896000+08:00","text":"請教你，3、4號機組今年年底也要轉備用嗎？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:17:55.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:17:56.322000+08:00","text":"都轉成警備機組。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:17:56.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:17:58.745000+08:00","text":"所以四座都轉成備用機組？是的。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:17:59.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:02.588000+08:00","text":"當初你說的是1號、2號除役喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:02.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:03.269000+08:00","text":"除役就是不使用了。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:05.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:10.636000+08:00","text":"事實上從除役到現在，確實都沒有運轉過，因為它的……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:11.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:13.178000+08:00","text":"什麼樣的狀況下會運轉？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:14.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:16.481000+08:00","text":"條件非常嚴格，只有符合條件才會啟動。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:17.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:24.992000+08:00","text":"本席可不可以這樣說，這些機組雖然是備用，但是形同除役，運轉的可能性微乎其微。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:25.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:30.214000+08:00","text":"因為本席必須回去向鄉親說明，他們很怕你們又找理由燃煤。","quality":0.36},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:30.214000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:31.303500+08:00","text":"不會吧？不會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:31.303500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:32.393000+08:00","text":"原則上如果不符合那個嚴格的條件，這些機組就不會使用，這其實是從國家安全角度設計的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:32.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:34.414000+08:00","text":"去年通過的疫後條例，我們針對用電的補貼也花了500億元。是的。","quality":0.52},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:34.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:36.094000+08:00","text":"今年有沒有針對這部分編列預算？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:18:36.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:18:36.894000+08:00","text":"因為這個條例是到2025年。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:04.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:07.580000+08:00","text":"疫後的經費總共是317億元，這筆經費會用到2025年，目前都還在持續受理相關的申請案。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:07.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:08.580000+08:00","text":"主席站起來了，再1分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:07.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:08.501000+08:00","text":"所以那個增資案會順利完成嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:08.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:10.932800+08:00","text":"台電的通過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:10.932800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:13.364600+08:00","text":"台電的董事會通過，部裡面也同意了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:13.364600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:15.796400+08:00","text":"對，500億元那部分通過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:15.796400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:18.228200+08:00","text":"明年還會繼續增資嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:18.228200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:20.660000+08:00","text":"明年我們會爭取補貼。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:20.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:21.760000+08:00","text":"同樣面對財務問題的中油也有這個需求啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:21.760000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:39.448000+08:00","text":"你們還是要審慎考量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:39.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:43.510000+08:00","text":"中油的部分，我們內部也會討論。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:44.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:45.071000+08:00","text":"工會也在看。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:46.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:58.619000+08:00","text":"因為你們改善了台電的財務結構、財務體質，中油也一樣財政困難，他們也提出增資的需求，為什麼會有不同標準？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:58.619000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:19:59.619000+08:00","text":"我們的做法是例如中油賣LNG給台電，我們就讓他們十足反映成本，這個部分就可以讓中油不要再一直虧損，至於其他的措施，我們會檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:19:59.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:00.048000+08:00","text":"所以這次就沒有增資的必要？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:15.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:21.745000+08:00","text":"目前我們有和中油內部討論，我們內部也有做一些調整，這些我們內部都會詳細討論。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:22.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:24.966000+08:00","text":"方總，你同意部長的說法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"方總經理振仁","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:26.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:32.589000+08:00","text":"事實上中油公司的虧損也滿巨大的，目前的負債比是90%，所以我們還是希望能夠增資啦！","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:33.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:34.390000+08:00","text":"所以董事會還是希望能夠增資嘛！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:37.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:37.871000+08:00","text":"但部長不同意啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:37.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:38.871000+08:00","text":"不是不同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王部長美花","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:38.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:39.871000+08:00","text":"確實，對於台電、中油，我們都希望他們可以財務穩健，所以我們會做整體的考量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:39.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:40.871000+08:00","text":"用什麼方法都沒有關係啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員志偉","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:40.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:41.871000+08:00","text":"但也要改善財務結構，因為財務穩健最重要啦！是的。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:41.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:41.193000+08:00","text":"請部長提供詳細的資料給委員，謝謝。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-07T11:20:41.693000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-07T11:20:44.835857+08:00","text":"接下來請陳委員超明發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}