{"error":false,"id":["149986"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149986,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149986","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T11:12:18+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T11:21:20+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:02","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a22d8ae2224556f14ccd35ab8b9884a7ff8ba9b0039caa7a623ca7a029bb132625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:12:18 - 11:21:20","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時12分）謝謝。我們請內政部林部長，接下來請警政署，警政署的議題之後再請國土管理署。"],["主席：好，我們請部長以及兩位署長上臺。謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：部長，我們有聯絡方式嘛！你有沒有我的email？"],["林部長右昌：我沒有。"],["李委員柏毅：你寄信給我。"],["林部長右昌：我們用LINE比較快。"],["李委員柏毅：你看一下。"],["林部長右昌：你說這個是詐騙的。"],["李委員柏毅：這是禮拜六我收到的，來，你的家庭地址我已經調查清楚，請你在Facebook公開發帖會退出民進黨，7天內退黨，否則你全家會成為刀下亡魂。來，黃署長，類似這些恐嚇郵件，請問本會的立委有多少位收到了，還有多少位沒有收到？"],["黃署長明昭：目前警政署受理委員的部分……"],["李委員柏毅：這一件還沒受理，當天我就覺得太多了。"],["黃署長明昭：目前已經有15件、16人。"],["李委員柏毅：昨天黃捷委員在花蓮演講，那個算不算也是在恐嚇委員？"],["黃署長明昭：是，也有受理。"],["李委員柏毅：也有受理了。"],["黃署長明昭：黃捷委員這一件也受理，這是個人……"],["李委員柏毅：署長，我請問你，我們當然都知道這些是恐嚇，也都覺得這可能都來自境外，但是我們希望警政署可以在第一時間很清楚的說明，而不是說我們要調查他的來源等等。我們也有家人，我不報案不代表我的家人不會害怕，所以你要趕快讓所有的社會大眾可以很快、很清楚地瞭解這些相關的內容到底是怎樣。署長，可不可以趕快明確說明？不是在這裡說明，未來遇到類似案件的話，我們要怎麼樣處理？我在選舉期間整整1個月都被恐嚇，這個恐嚇信件還跟我對話。我們要怎麼樣趕快讓社會大眾知道這個類型的案件、知道警政署怎麼樣因應，讓社會大眾知道來自境外的目的是什麼？就是認知作戰。來，署長。"],["黃署長明昭：這個我們可以這樣做，如果偵查出是在境外或者是用哪一個國家當跳板……"],["李委員柏毅：偵查出來要多久會知道在境外？"],["黃署長明昭：一般大概幾個小時就可以瞭解到底他的IP是在哪個國家落點。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝署長，您請回。","內政部其實掌管非常多，我想要先就現在最夯的住宅問題請教。明年台積電就要進駐我的選區──左營、楠梓，台積電進駐之後，1,500個以上的工程師加上周邊的就業、產業，會有非常大量的人口移入。署長，這個月高雄鄰近左營兩區的預售屋超過1,000戶，你知道嗎？都是3天clean，鄰近左營的兩個預售屋都是3天完銷，住宅的需求非常高，所以高雄市跟住都中心合作，在左營跟楠梓再加上仁武興建4個社宅，但是社宅興建完成跟台積電設廠其實搭不起來，也就是說，短期內會有大量的住宅需求，所以你看到這些預售屋飆漲，不只飆漲，預售屋也在很快的速度內去化，可見我們可能需要很大量的租金補貼等等。","我們從內政部的報告裡面看到，去年度開始申請租金補貼的這些戶數，全臺灣一共43萬戶，這43萬戶裡面有很多是沒有辦法出來申請的，這原因包含什麼？原因包含害怕申請之後，房東可能就要請我離開不要租了，這些人要住哪裡？我當然知道內政部也有對房東祭出罰則，如果你因為這樣拒絕房客申請，可以罰3萬到30萬等，但是房東被罰錢不怕，房客最害怕的是他真的被趕出去。如果在這一段時間真的被趕出去，我希望國土署、內政部好好研議這個問題，讓所有的租客可以安心申請租金補貼。相關的安置內容你可不可以現在先回應？部長要不要回應？"],["林部長右昌：非常謝謝委員的指教，我們現在已經跟法扶中心建立法律諮詢服務的一個平臺，預計今年上半年基本上把它建置完畢，下半年的時候可以上路，可以提供房東還是房客，如果他有遇到糾紛的時候，可以採取法律保障的作為。"],["李委員柏毅：沒有糾紛，這也不是法律保障，部長，這個很清楚，如果房客跟縣市政府申請租金補貼之後，在3個月內被房東掃地出門，政府有什麼措施安置被掃地出門的人？他是被你鼓勵來申請租金補貼，卻因為這個租金補貼被房東趕出去了，政府要不要做什麼樣的準備，因應這一些問題？當然重罰我是贊成的，但是我們要怎麼樣因應這一些問題？請內政部儘速研議，安所有租屋客的心。","最後，去年12月內政部通過「推動社會住宅成果與提升社宅用地供給精進措施」，希望在2025到2032進行，你還是設到明年開始，縣市政府市地重劃的抵費地可以提撥5%作為社宅用地，目前這些抵費地的標售都超過它的成本，我建議內政部，臺中市政府如果再拿出來標售的時候，內政部去標來作為社會住宅，人民會站在內政部這一邊，還是站在市場這一邊？希望國土署也就這一方面表態。","我來不及讓你回答，因為還有一個地方的議題，希望國土署趕快處理，就是高雄橋頭科學園區目前設置的進度，它緊接著台積電之後，目前它從這個計畫道路的開闢跟廠商選址是同一個時段，也就是其實現在廠商選址之外，廠商可以進去開始建廠，為什麼都還沒有進去？因為進不去。所以我希望國土署跟高雄市政府可以趕快地配合，讓廠商可以進去選址之外，它有一段聯外道路沒有辦法連接到省道，我在擔任市議員的期間一直不斷要求市政府、地政局趕快來開闢這條道路，但是也要跟國土署做配合。希望國土署就剛剛這兩件事情一併做回應，包括橋頭科學園區聯外道路，還有要不要去標縣市政府抵費地的問題，謝謝。來，署長。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。首先，在我們明年提的這個計畫裡面是直接會針對地方政府如果土地可以專案讓售給中央的話，我們直接來協商……"],["李委員柏毅：沒有，我的意思是你直接去跟它標啦！"],["吳署長欣修：對，我知道，因為我們大概現在還不會，但是專案讓售的話是……"],["李委員柏毅：我們當然是希望拿成本來標，對不對？這樣才對真正的市民是有利的……"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯、沒錯。"],["李委員柏毅：不是已經重劃之後的價錢。"],["吳署長欣修：是。第二個是聯外道路的部分……"],["李委員柏毅：你要設法、設法，就是針對抵費地這個。"],["吳署長欣修：我知道，因為高公局……"],["李委員柏毅：高雄市已經做了超過2萬戶的社宅，臺中不是做不到1萬戶？來，給我書面回應。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["李委員柏毅：我看主席站起來了，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝柏毅委員，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。","現在處理臨時提案總共有7案，請宣讀。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委、主席。"],["主席：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：請教一下，剛剛主席有宣告臨時提案是10點以前截止嘛？"],["主席：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在變成7案，本來不是只有4案嗎？"],["主席：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是不是也另外3案……我看內容裡面可能大家再討論一下，是不是今天先處理前面這4案？"],["主席：是這樣子，剛剛提案來的時候，因為只有3分鐘，我也接受了，我有交代議事人員，未來各黨團如果在3分鐘內提出來的，我們也都接受，好不好？"],["莊委員瑞雄：好啦，尊重他。"],["主席：不好意思，謝謝你。我們以後都比照辦理，感謝。","現在來宣讀。","一、","有鑑於內政部於數位身分證推動過程中，未針對社會諸多疑慮，如資安問題、數據隱私、效益不明顯等等進行政策溝通，且怠惰訂定專法，先招標、再開會，使專家淪為橡皮圖章。前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案。導致鉅額賠償費用。爰提案要求內政部對全案提出檢討與未來政策方向報告，於一個月內送本院內政委員會。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　許宇甄　　黃建賓","二、","有鑑於執法機關應共同合作、打擊不法，查海巡署於112年10月12日向內政部警政署申請介接車輛辨識系統，內政部警政署於同年12月29日以涉及個資法，請海巡署逕洽個資法主管機關釋疑後，再行評估審酌介接。海巡署業於113年1月11日函發個人資料保護委員會籌備處函釋，致至今5個月仍未完成系統介接。爰提案要求內政部對全案提出檢討報告，於一個月內送本院內政委員會。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　許宇甄　　黃建賓","三、","鑑於臺東縣面積3,515.25平方公里，占台灣面積9.78%，是台灣第三大縣，就臺東縣113年度附屬單位預算，臺東縣消防人員預算員額僅411人，平均一個人負責守護8.5平方公里，參照臺東縣消防局2023年救災防護暨其他案件類統計，火災、救護及載送等相關案件，總計近26,719件，再加上台東幅員遼闊以及城鄉社區距離較長，長期人力不足下導致台東消防救護工作壓力極大，因此人員異動頻繁，據臺東縣政府推估，臺東縣需要之消防人力約738人，仍有372人的巨大缺口，亟待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力，爰提案要求內政部於一個月內就協助增加臺東縣消防人力與設備資源擬具相關規劃案，以維護臺東縣消防環境與人民生命財產安全。","提案人：黃建賓　　許宇甄　　高金素梅","四、","鑑於數位身分證換發政策失當，契約暫停執行衍生增加費用，與內政部在規劃案及管理專法尚未完成前，急就章將案件發包給廠商印製、驗證、建置系統，最終因政府政策不透明，評估小組淪為橡皮圖章，學者、專家、民代抗議專業被踐踏，以及資安及隱私權被侵害風險未解，相關預算被本院凍結，最後計畫被行政院中止；得標廠商欲履約卻因計畫中止而被暫停執行，因而向政府求償，審計部對此亦函請行政院研謀妥善處理之策，儘速確立新式身分證換發政策，以降低因契約暫停執行所產生之不經濟支出；今年本院委員已多次對此問題提出質詢，內政部迄今無法說明清楚；政府因內政部數位身分證換發政策失當所購買機器設備、系統建置、印製材料及賠償金，衍生支出費用超過14億元，現已全部轉嫁由人民承擔；內政部推動數位身分證換發政策違失情節明確，不思改進，刻意隱瞞，為查明數位身分證換發政策違失情況，茲依《立法院職權行使法》第45條第1項規定，提案建請立法院內政委員會，針對「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行違失」乙案成立調閱專案小組，儘速釐清真相，追究相關失職人員責任，以善盡國會監督職責。","提案人：許宇甄　　牛煦庭　　黃建賓","五、","林口影視園區社宅規劃，中央不願重視地方強烈反彈，無視林口在社宅數占比已是全國相當高比例之地區，且對於周遭國民教育學校都已額滿，更違反目前土地使用分區管理不供住宅使用之法令規定，對於影視園區中部分遭廠商棄標之土地蠻橫評估變更為社會住宅。","爰此提案要求內政部兩個月內與地方政府進行溝通，重視林口鄉親希望維持原本發展影視園區之目標與願景，積極重視地方需求與在地就業。","提案人：牛煦庭　　黃建賓　　徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　　洪孟楷","六、","關於淡水淡海新市鎮之交通規劃建設，因應淡江大橋2025年通車前交通評估及區域改善，在2023年內政委員會考察時提出配合淡海新市鎮二期之計畫到路，公路總局也確定規劃淡海新市鎮二期從沙崙路北沿40米寬之計畫道路，緩解未來淡江大橋通車後產生於淡水端之龐大車流。","考量地方對交通之需求，該工程已確定系統建設之計畫，期相關單位案規劃之進度加速辦理、推動工程進行目標，完善區域交通建設。爰提案要求內政部一個月內完成經費補助審核作業並提出進度之書面報告回復提案委員。","提案人：牛煦庭　　黃建賓　　徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　　洪孟楷","七、","林口特定區計畫保護區面積占約一萬一千多公頃，目前保護區係依「都市計畫法桃園市施行細則」與「都市計畫法新北市施行細則」規定管理，相關保護區檢討調整經101內政部4月24日都市計畫委員會第778次會議中決議關於林口特定區保護區開發許可要點之通盤檢討及內容妥適性詳細予以檢視後再行辦理，惟進度延宕及地方鄉親積極關心，實有加速推進之必要。","爰此，關於林口特定計畫保護區，提案要求內政部兩個月內邀集新北、桃園市府督促提出通盤檢討及內容妥適性評估，作為整體計畫的開展，並與地方鄉親舉辦座談說明。","提案人：牛煦庭　　黃建賓　　徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　　洪孟楷"],["主席：召委在這邊提醒一下在場的官員還有委員們，因為我在9點開會的時候就已經說了，我們的臨時提案是到10點。今天國民黨黨團有幾個案子是10點3分進入的，我跟議事人員交代，未來在10點3分前收到了各黨團的臨時提案，我們按照規則，大家都一樣，所以這次一併來處理。","第二件事情就是提案人員還有相關的各部會的協調有一些文字的部分，本席希望在召開臨時提案之前趕快處理，好不好？因為我已經有滿長時間給你們去跟各提案委員交流、溝通是不是可以做一些文字上的修正，可以修正的，我們就不要浪費太多的時間在這邊大家再一起討論；如果不能修正的部分，我們就來處理，好不好？","目前第三案、第六案、第七案有一些文字修正，提案委員也同意了，所以我們先處理這三案，請宣讀，謝謝。"],["王秘書珮瑛：第三案倒數第四行「亟待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力」這些文字修改為「黃建賓」。這些文字刪除。"],["主席：請議事人員再說一遍第三案，好不好？謝謝。"],["王秘書珮瑛：第三案，倒數第4行：「亟待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力」這些文字刪除。"],["主席：好，可以吧！來，現在我們再來處理第六案。","第三案照修正文字通過，對，我們提案委員是OK，沒問題嘛！建賓委員？好，謝謝。"],["王秘書珮瑛：第六案第3行道路的「道」修正文字，第2段文字修正為「考量地方對交通之需求，該工程已確定系統建設之計畫，期相關單位按規劃之進度加速辦理、推動工程進行目標，完善區域交通建設。爰提案要求內政部一個月內提出進度之書面報告（含經費編列及開闢方式）回復提案委員。」"],["主席：好，以上修正文字，提案委員沒有問題吧？孟楷委員？好，沒問題，就按照修正文字通過。","第七案。"],["王秘書珮瑛：第七案第2段修正為「爰此，關於林口特定計畫保護區，提案內政部一個月內督促新北、桃園市府儘速提出通盤檢討及內容妥適性評估，作為整體計畫的開展，並與地方鄉親舉辦座談說明」。"],["主席：「請內政部一個月內……」也都唸完了，是不是？好，請問一下這個修正文字沒問題吧？"],["洪委員孟楷：可以。"],["主席：好，我們就按照修正文字通過。","我們現在回來處理第一案，剛剛已經宣讀了，都宣讀過了，第一案提案委員好像堅持這個部分嘛！然後我們的相關單位，這樣子的問題你們有什麼意見？你剛剛跟提案委員溝通了嗎？我剛剛從9點到現在已經有給你們3個小時溝通了，所以如果溝通還不接受的話，那麼我們就表決，好不好？"],["莊委員瑞雄：可不可以說明一下？請他說明一下，我們沒有聽到。"],["主席：好，請說明一下。拿麥克風好嗎？麻煩你站到上面來，謝謝。"],["陳代理司長子和：這部分因為要使一些文字更明確，我們是建議修正，原則上我們會提供相關的政策報告資料，裡面有些文字因為跟實際上有一點不符，所以我們是建議稍微做一下修正，比如說第3行「前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案。導致鉅額賠償費用。」這幾個文字，因為這個案子──有關換發新式身分證計畫曾經提過立法院，院裡面也通過預算，而且這個鉅額的賠償也還沒有確定，這是一個補償，不是賠償的費用，所以我們建議是不是把這幾個字刪掉？就是「前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案。導致鉅額賠償費用。」這幾個字把它刪除掉。"],["主席：好，請問欣瑩委員，前面這幾個字……"],["徐委員欣瑩：報告主席，前兩分鐘突然拿給我看，我是覺得這個不用改啦！就是照這樣，內政委員會其他委員也覺得……"],["主席：好的，是這樣子，召委必須要譴責一下你們，我們從9點已經拿到了這個臨時提案，一直到今天要處理，現在11點33分了，這當中你們都沒有跟提案委員來溝通嗎？所以如果沒有溝通的話，本席就覺得這個案要來表決，來，同意第一案的請舉手，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席，等一下，我表達一下意見。"],["主席：不好意思，請表達，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是這樣子啦！我們內政委員會一向在處理這個，如果說督促我們行政部門去做一個政策方向的檢討，這個其實我們都會表達支持啦！但是像剛剛那個官員你是？"],["主席：戶政司的代理司長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：戶政司，照他所言「前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案」如果這些不是事實的話，我們來表決這一個不是的前提，也好奇怪，我是支持徐委員要求內政部提出整個檢討跟未來政策方向的報告，中間這個字就變成是不是針對文字來稍微做一個修正？大家可以來支持你，要求整個內政部對這個全案未來該怎麼辦來做出一個報告，這個是非常合理啦！但是如果照戶政司所講的，也沒有說什麼朝野一致、沒有委員來支持該案，是不是我們通過這樣的文字也不妥……"],["主席：召委現在來做一個……我們不要浪費太多的時間，好不好？因為我剛剛一直在講戶政司，有3個小時請你們去跟委員溝通，縱使這些文字如剛剛我們莊瑞雄幹事長所提的，但是你有沒有覺得我們的行政官員實在是太不重視這個部分了，我已經提過在哪一個委員質詢結束之後要處理臨時提案，所以今天我覺得這個例子不可以再開，我就表決，好不好？請幹事長理解，因為每一個委員會裡面必須要有一些些它的交流溝通模式，我覺得今天已經有3個小時請行政單位去跟委員溝通，而且我必須要說明，在我還沒有處理臨時提案的時候，我一直請議事人員、交代議事人員今天的臨時提案請行政單位跟委員趕快溝通，一直到剛剛徐欣瑩委員說3分鐘前才跟他溝通，如果你今天做召委，你覺得今天這樣一個裁示，你是不是覺得被踐踏，好不好？請你們也理解一下召委，我今天要維持一下……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我可以理解召委、理解主席這樣一個心情啦！但是我是覺得涉及到整個文字的敘述，如果說前提事實不對，我們用表決把它通過，這個有點開玩笑……"],["主席：戶政司代理司長，為什麼你們不早一點去呢？"],["莊委員瑞雄：不然我一定會尊重主席裁決的權力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席、主席。"],["主席：請提案委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一個案確實朝野一致，就是這個案後來到現在都沒執行，就是暫緩，所以就我瞭解，莊委員那時候你也沒支持啊！所以我們這樣寫沒有錯，朝野一致對這個案大家都不支持，所以這個案才會停下來啊！到現在它停下來以後，照理應該要再積極的想辦法，但是沒有嘛！我們就是看到這個部分，所以我想這個文字上應該它的意思，對……"],["主席：好，召委現在已經請各位委員充分表達你們的意見了，召委必須要行使一下，我在這邊做召委，我非常尊重各位委員，我也尊重各行政單位，你們在3個小時當中都不去處理這樣子的文字溝通，我要給你們譴責，所以我們就表決。","第一案，我們來表決。同意徐欣瑩委員所提出的這個臨時提案請舉手，謝謝。幾位？好，我們是本委員會裡面的來表決，有1、2、3、4、5、6，6席同意。","不同意的請舉手，謝謝，1、2、3、4、5、6，6席。","同樣的，按照立法院職權行使法，如果大家有意見的話，就是主席可以來做最後的決定，所以主席也同意這個臨時提案，謝謝。現在的表決是7：6，所以第一案我們就讓它表決通過，謝謝。","臨時提案第二案，請我們行政單位來說明一下文字，請署長。"],["黃署長明昭：召委及各位委員大家好。臨時提案第二案，我們是建議倒數第1行「對全案提出檢討報告」能不能改為「進度報告」？因為這是去年的10月12號提出來的，而且這涉及到很多行政部門、還有縣市端的協調聯繫，我們是不是改為以進度做一個說明？以上。"],["主席：署長，你們是什麼時候跟徐欣瑩委員去溝通的？也是3分鐘之前嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，早一點。"],["黃署長明昭：之前就溝通……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我有跟他提說就是「檢討報告」，因為這個就是有問題，所以我要請你們檢討，就這樣，檢討報告裡面可以含進度報告，沒問題。"],["黃署長明昭：是。"],["主席：剛剛徐欣瑩委員在做質詢的時候，本席也聽得非常的清楚啦！署長，的確我覺得你這個辨識系統介接的部分，你們應該儘速，而且好像有一段時間沒有處理了，只要你們能夠再跟其他的行政單位來協調合作，其實就可以儘早，好不好？"],["黃署長明昭：好，是……"],["主席：欣瑩委員，有關進度報告，你還是堅持「檢討報告」對吧？好，檢討報告，我們還是一樣，就是尊重提案委員。"],["黃署長明昭：是不是可以補充？"],["主席：好，你補充，謝謝。"],["黃署長明昭：因為這個有涉及到國發會的部分，因為國發會的部分……"],["主席：我瞭解。"],["黃署長明昭：對，那我們還要再去跟他們解釋，他們的見解以後……"],["主席：也已經很久了，署長，抱歉喔！徐欣瑩委員剛剛在質詢的時候，已經把這個時間拖很久了，你縱使要跟他們來討論，你應該儘早嘛！就等於好像這件事情一直擺在那邊都不處理，今天要不是欣瑩委員再做質詢的話，你們恐怕是繼續擺在那裡，其實這對這些介接還有國安的系統其實也是有問題的。"],["黃署長明昭：我再補充報告，因為國發會的函文請示是海巡署，不是我內政部啦！所以這個全部歸責在我這邊檢討，實在涉及到行政部門……"],["主席：沒關係啦！你就把這件事情給扛起來嘛！好不好？因為我剛剛講過，海巡署有非常多的警務人員，好不好？可以嗎？好，我們就……來，部長，你還有補充說明？"],["林部長右昌：我非常尊重委員的意見，不過因為涉及的是國發會，國發會是行政院的幕僚單位，那因為這個它是主管機關，我們必須尊重，所以這一點也必須特別報告，請委員瞭解。"],["主席：這樣子，我們就先文字修正，您先看，就是說是不是提案要求內政部跟其他的部會來提出進度的檢討報告，好不好？可以嗎？進度也放裡面，我們才比較能夠要求他們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：提出進度的檢討報告。"],["主席：對啊！進度的檢討報告，可以嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：過程的檢討報告？"],["主席：我覺得過程就不要了啦！我們就請這個……反正您是今天提出嘛！我們也尊重您，就從今天開始我們來請他們提出檢討進度報告，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我尊重召委。"],["主席：可以吧？好，來，再唸一下。"],["郭專門委員明政：修正文字最後一段：「爰提案要求內政部與相關部會提出進度檢討報告，於一個月內送本院內政委員會」。"],["主席：這樣可以了吧？署長，好不好？好，謝謝您。","現在我們來處理第四案。請問一下有沒有部會要說明？好，也是代理司長。"],["陳代理司長子和：主席、各位委員。這個案子我們事先有跟許委員這邊稍微說明一下，也有跟辦公室的主任來溝通一下，那目前比較有共識的部分是「計畫中止」改成「計畫暫緩」，因為整個計畫還沒有中止，是暫緩。第二個部分是補償金，因為那個不是損害的補償，它不是賠償金，它是一個補償金，所以11行裡面那個賠償金就改成「補償金」。","跟委員比較沒有一致的部分，委員還是希望能夠成立一個調查小組來調查相關的資料，那我們是希望能夠在一個月內提供數位身分證換發政策及預算執行的書面報告給內政委員會，一個月內，那這一部分是比較沒有共識的，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝代理司長。我們看一下第7行的「卻因計畫中止……」，那個「中止」，許委員是同意改為「暫緩」兩個字；然後接著下來就是「機器設備、系統建置、印製材料及賠償金」的部分，他同意列為「補償金」，這兩個的文字是同意這樣修正。","再來就是：茲依《立法院職權行使法》第45條第1項規定，提案建請立法院內政委員會，針對「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行違失」乙案成立調閱專案小組。提案委員許委員是堅持要成立調閱小組，那你們是有意見的，對不對？好，請問一下許委員。"],["許委員宇甄：對，本席堅持要成立調閱專案小組，因為其實在這過程中，就像剛剛我在質詢的時候，我從決算報告中看出來，我們其實目前已經花了十四億多，但是內政部卻只用2.8億這邊來告訴大家是這樣子的一個賠償金，所以我認為這個部分應該是要有專案的調閱小組，才能夠把這個事情釐清。"],["主席：好，提案委員堅持用要成立調閱專案小組，我們是不是也來表決一下？請問一下民進黨的幹事長，請說明。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我跟主席還有跟在場所有委員來報告一下，這個案子其實第8屆的時候，我就跟主席在這個地方，當初從2013年針對國民身分證跟自然人憑證結合開始去做研究，到了第8屆、第9屆，然後行政院在110年它的會議裡面暫緩整個數位身分證的換發以後，我記得我們在2021年朝野協商的時候，是把整筆的預算來做封存。現在如果你說要調閱小組，基於立法院其實我們過去也都有這個先例，我阻擋不了，我對這種監督行政部門的事情沒有那麼堅持，本來立法院就發揮監督的功能。","可是還是會碰到一個問題，比如說你衍生文字裡面有沒有可能不是……我最擔心的就是我們整個委員會裡面做出的，我們表決完，我們表決那個前提事實是……那個事實怎麼是用表決的呢？就讓他們適度的說明那個數字到底是多少，你說清楚，許委員要的是調閱小組啦！我是覺得也合理啦！但重點就是你們的數字要說清楚啦！他如果寫錯了，你們也要跟他溝通好啊！正確的數字講一下，我相信許委員也不會堅持說2億，他跟你說那個14億，你就要提醒他，請他趕快修正一下才對，所以那個數字我反而會覺得這個在朝野政黨之間，本來跟行政部門大家去溝通把文字弄得更精確，這是好事啦！召委，我再次做這樣的提醒啦！"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄幹事長。","我們請許委員。"],["許委員宇甄：我想剛剛莊委員這邊所提到的數字，我是依據內政部的決算報告裡面所計算出來，要我這樣一筆一筆的把它唸出來嗎？"],["主席：我想可能不需要那麼多時間……"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以說總共就是……我得到的資料就是14億，超過14億，所以我想這個我是有所本的喔！所以我還是堅持，既然在這邊說不清楚，我覺得我們就是成立調閱專案小組來讓他們講清楚。"],["王委員美惠：主席……"],["主席：好，謝謝美惠委員。","我們請行政部門再來稍微說明一下，對於14億的部分。"],["陳代理司長子和：跟委員報告，許委員提到這14億裡面，其實是沒有那麼多啦！裡面有重複計算的部分，我跟委員一一報告。第一個，這個費用裡面第一個是我們跟中央印製廠契約的部分，我們跟中央印製廠契約的部分是以它印製每一張多少錢來支付，比如說一張可能是180、200塊，這個是按照……"],["主席：請你快速一點好不好？因為剛剛許委員是有所本，是從這個決算書裡面看到的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以說是決算書有問題喔？"],["陳代理司長子和：第二個是中印跟它的委託廠商東元之間的賠償費用，是2.8億，這個是買材料的費用。第三個部分是中印為了要執行印製我的數位身分證，它自己去整修廠房跟購買設備，這一部分是大概3.79億，所以加起來應該是沒有像委員講的這麼多……"],["主席：好，謝謝。","他剛剛的說明其實也蠻清楚的，但是我們立法院的決算委員會裡面，的確提出的報告是如此，好不好？所以其實你們在調閱小組裡面談更清楚，好不好？好，謝謝。","第四案，請問一下問民進黨委員同意嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我只有一句話跟委員報告一下……"],["主席：好，我們尊重部長，來，請您快一點，快速的來說明一下。"],["林部長右昌：我們代理司長講的太複雜了，簡單來講，委員剛剛提到的是決算嘛！那個數字是沒有錯，不過中央印製廠的決算數是我們內政部撥給它的，所以那一部分是重複計算，大概是這樣子。"],["主席：好，你在調閱專案小組裡面也可以說明清楚，好嗎？部長，謝謝您，我也非常尊重行政官員還有部長的補充說明。","請問一下民進黨的委員、內政委員會委員，我們是不是可以來處理這案了？"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委。"],["主席：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是不是這樣建議，大家一起來同意文字做修正啦！你老經驗的人怎麼這樣，應該是……"],["主席：那你覺得文字應該怎麼修正？"],["莊委員瑞雄：看內政部這邊可不可以再提一下？"],["主席：請問一下許宇甄……其實我們看到有一些文字修正的部分，它都已經有修正了啦！請問一下莊委員，你對哪一個文字還有意見？你有沒有什麼意見？提出一下你很好的見解。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委問了，我不敢不回答啦！"],["主席：我尊重大家。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就是我們這整個臨時提案裡面，其實也不用放進去太多……"],["主席：你是說數字嗎？費用的數字嗎？"],["莊委員瑞雄：數字你解釋完了我可以接受，因為我們立法院有這樣一個報告。"],["主席：好的，還有哪裡你覺得文字……"],["莊委員瑞雄：比如說「換發政策違失情節明確，不思改進，刻意隱瞞」這個聽起來就怪怪的啦！我們要去調查它，既然要調查就先不用去審判它了，這有未審先判的那種感覺啦！"],["主席：好，我們請提案委員回應，是不是接受莊委員的建議？"],["許委員宇甄：我不接受。因為針對這個部分，我們確實感受到的就是有刻意隱瞞之嫌啦！所以為什麼希望能夠成立調閱專案小組，就是希望能夠把這部分的疑慮釐清啦！"],["主席：這樣子好不好？我們把「違失」拿掉好不好？「換發政策違失情節明確」我也同意剛剛……因為我們還沒有調閱小組，我們的確不能夠未審先判，我們成立了調閱小組之後，我們才可以瞭解一下他們是不是有違失的情節，這一點我倒是同意莊瑞雄幹事長的提議，好不好？可以嗎？請問許委員，我們在這邊文字修正？"],["許委員宇甄：可以，OK。"],["主席：我們請議事人員來幫我們想一下。"],["郭專門委員明政：如果有成立的話，建議內政委員會，數位身分證它調閱小組的名稱就「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行」調閱小組……"],["主席：好，「違失」也拿掉，好不好？就是「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行」乙案，莊委員這樣可以嗎？我們把違失那兩個字都拿掉。好，文字修正念一下，謝謝。"],["郭專門委員明政：臨時提案第四案修正文字：「提案建請立法內政委員會，針對『數位身分證換發政策及預算執行』乙案成立調閱小組，儘速釐清真相，追究相關失職人員責任，以善盡國會監督職責」。"],["主席：還有前面「身分證換發政策違失情節明確」，這個「違失情節明確」把它拿掉，好不好？"],["郭專門委員明政：「內政部推動數位身分證換發政策，不思改進，刻意隱瞞」這樣。"],["主席：對，可以嗎？好，如果這樣子的文字修正大家同意的話，我們第四案也讓它通過，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：同意，謝謝。"],["主席：第五案提案委員是洪孟楷委員。"],["張委員宏陸：召委，我想提醒一下，我們內政委員會，臨時提案第四案「賠償」改成「補償」了……"],["主席：對，賠償金變成補償金"],["張委員宏陸：但我們第一案還是「賠償費用」，這樣我們內委會兩個案子的用詞不一樣喔！是不是爭取徐欣瑩委員的同意，我們第一案也是把賠償變成補償，這樣我們內政委員會出去的才有一致，不然會怪怪的。"],["主席：好，我們剛剛臨時提案是已經通過了……"],["張委員宏陸：但是現在兩個不一樣……"],["主席：我也尊重委員，但是我今天要再提的就是我們的行政單位，並沒有在3個小時之內去找徐委員溝通，所以剛剛召委才會給他們一些懲罰，希望他們以後尊重一下召委在這邊所說的每一句話，提醒他們。所以剛剛的建議，因為尊重我們委員，請問一下徐委員補償金跟賠償金的部分？"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦……"],["主席：OK，謝謝欣瑩委員。我再一次提醒行政官員，麻煩你們對召委已經說明的這些，今天我們委員會裡面的所有行政流程，請你們注意聽，也請你們尊重召委，好不好？以後在我處理臨時提案之前，趕快找提案委員來溝通一下，可以嗎？謝謝。","第五案。第五案有沒有文字修正？請說明，署長。"],["吳署長欣修：因為林口影視園區這一個本來就是國有土地，部分土地廠商棄標以後，國產署也通知我們可以一起來評估，所以我們納入評估本來就是非常合理的。第二個，其實當時地方政府有一些意見，我想我們在過程當中，因為現在評估還沒有一個結果，等我們評估有一個結果都會跟地方政府去溝通。所以有關其中的一些文字，是不是可以……因為我們有跟委員溝通，他有部分文字還是不同意修正。但是我覺得站在對於國有土地的一個管理跟規劃以及長期角度來看，因為新北又是社宅缺口最大的地方，是不是讓我們可以評估以後來跟地方溝通，我想這一點我們是會尊重，但是有些文字還是希望修正。"],["主席：好，我們也請提案人牛煦庭委員做一些回應。"],["牛委員煦庭：孟楷委員有特別跟我講啦，因為他會用這樣的文字……"],["主席：你們是共同提案人吧？因為我們處理……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，內委會提案嘛！"],["主席：縱使洪孟楷委員不在，牛煦庭委員在……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，我來說明啊！我是提案人啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個原因是這樣，我想部裡面應該也清楚，林口鄉親有抗爭、有連署，所以作為民意代表如果沒有辦法用……你也沒辦法讓孟楷委員跟林口的鄉親交代啦！所以這一部分希望部裡面是不是多多擔待。這個臨時提案的總體意旨關鍵，其實還是希望中央跟地方進行完善的溝通啦，所以我覺得文字修正與否不影響這個提案的意旨，是不是就趕快？我就特別再多講一句，如果真的溝通的結果是林口不要，對不對？拿來龜山，我來幫你溝通，好不好？你的社宅進度也可以照常推動，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：這個是國有地，剛好它位置在林口啦，因為龜山的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：事實上就是那邊的鄉親有抗爭嘛！所以他提案，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解，所以我的意思是，因為我們本來程序上就在做評估，其實不需要用到「蠻橫」這種字眼，因為國有土地本來交給我們評估也是很正常……"],["牛委員煦庭：他剛剛有講是很堅持啦！他堅持，我們也尊重他啦，好不好？因為畢竟那是他林口的事情嘛，好不好？所以希望部裡面要擔待一下。"],["主席：好，我們請莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：跟主席還有各位委員報告，你看總統大選選完才多久而已，但新北市確實在整個社宅的部分缺口是最大的，各個政黨在選總統的時候都是信誓旦旦，說要多蓋多少、多蓋多少！我是比較難想像，雖然我們不屬於林口這樣的一個選區，可是整個社會住宅的建造，希望再繼續增加，這是各黨大家都一致希望的，而且在內政委員會，我們一直要求內政部、要求國土署，每次都修理他們，說他們進度都太慢，要快點找！像我都一直要拜託你們再去找，怎麼會說剛好是廠商棄標的國有土地，然後你去把它做評估變更為社會住宅，會變成是蠻橫的評估？評估也還沒出來，搞不好評估出來，新北市政府是很開心的也不一定啊！中央出錢，還蓋在你地方的土地這裡，除非你告訴我說林口這個地方真的完全都不需要社會住宅。所以是不是就像剛剛牛委員所提到的，你的意旨是希望再去溝通，既然是這樣子的話，這種比較情緒性的文字就不要啦！說「蠻橫」評估，我也不知道，不然就改「溫柔」評估，有這樣的嗎？對不對？這我就不知道為何要用這個字眼，評估就評估，最主要是你評估出來以後跟地方如何去進行溝通，我也不認為你評估出來說：「好」，但新北市政府跟你說：「不行」，新北林口以後都不需要社會住宅。要嚇死人，應該也不至於吧？"],["主席：好，謝謝莊瑞雄委員的提醒，召委這樣子提這個意見，牛煦庭委員聽一下，不好意思。蠻橫的確這個字可能比較重了一點，我們用「逕行」兩個字好不好？對於影視園區中部分遭廠商棄標之土地「逕行」評估變更為社會住宅，其實逕行這兩個字也是蠻重的一個字，但在文字上面可能文雅一點，我們是不是用這樣子？署長，你同意嗎？好，OK，大家同意的話，我們就將蠻橫這兩個字拿掉，當然最重要的是兩個月之內要跟地方政府進行溝通，好嗎？第五案，我們文字用「逕行」大家同意嗎？好，我們臨時提案第五案通過。","第六案、第七案都已經同意了嘛？好的，非常謝謝大家，我們的臨時提案現在都處理完畢了，我們先休息3分鐘，然後待會再進行我們的質詢，謝謝大家，謝謝。","休息（11時59分）","繼續開會（12時4分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。中午不休息，繼續我們的質詢。","現在請莊瑞雄委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","許宇甄","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","丁學忠","李柏毅","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","洪申翰","黃國昌","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra 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署長可不可以趕快做一個明確的說明不是在這裡說明"},{"start":118.872,"end":118.892,"text":"來 署長"},{"start":144.053,"end":147.614,"text":"內政部其實掌管非常的多那我想要先就這個現在最夯的住宅的問題那我的選區左營男子迎接到"},{"start":174.281,"end":201.655,"text":"明年這個台積電就要進駐那台積電進駐之後一千五百個以上的工程師加上周邊的這些就業產業會有非常大量的人口移入目前在這個月 署長 這個月喔高雄臨近左營兩區的預售屋超過一千戶 你知道嗎都是三天clean 三天完銷"},{"start":203.187,"end":230.94,"text":"臨近左營的兩個這個預售都是3天完銷住宅需求非常的大那所以呢共是跟我們租屋中心合作在左營跟楠梓就有4個加上仁武就有4個這個社宅的興建但是社宅的興建跟台積電的這個建廠社宅興建完成跟台積電的這個設廠其實搭不起來"},{"start":232.14,"end":244.95,"text":"也就是說短期內會有大量的住宅的需求所以你看到這些預售屋飆漲不只飆漲預售屋也是很快的速度內就去化我們會需要很大量的租金補貼等等的"},{"start":251.004,"end":262.001,"text":"目前我們從內政部的報告裡面去年度開始申請租金補貼的這些戶數全台灣一共43萬戶那這43萬戶裡面"},{"start":266.388,"end":294.9,"text":"我想有很多是沒有辦法出來申請的這原因包含什麼原因包含害怕如果申請之後房東就可能就我就要請你離開不要租了那這些人要住哪裡我當然知道我們內政部也有對這個房東有祭出罰則如果你因為這樣拒絕房客來申請可能可以罰3到30萬等但是房客最害怕的"},{"start":295.6,"end":318.401,"text":"房東被罰錢他不怕房客最害怕的是他真的被趕出去如果在這段時間真的被趕出去我希望我們國土署這邊我們內政部這邊好好來演繹這個問題讓所有的租客可以安心的來申請租屋補貼來 署長相關的安置的內容你可不可以先來回應"},{"start":323.565,"end":350.698,"text":"非常謝謝委員的指教那我們現在在我們已經在跟法服中心建立一個法律諮詢服務的一個平台我們預計在今年的上半年基本上把它建置完畢那下半年的時候可以上路這個就是可以提供這個不管是房東還是房客如果他有遇到這樣糾紛的時候可以採取一個法律保障的一個作為"},{"start":351.178,"end":369.072,"text":"沒有沒有糾紛啦這也不是法律保障部長這個很清楚就是說如果房客去來跟縣市政府申請租屋補貼租屋補貼之後他如果3個月內被房東掃地出門政府要有什麼措施來安置這個被掃地出門的他是被你鼓勵嘛"},{"start":369.953,"end":369.993,"text":"最後﹖"},{"start":393.982,"end":421.61,"text":"去年12月內政部通過推動住宅成果提升社會住宅用地的經濟措施裏面希望在2025到2032你還是設到明年開始縣市政府的這個勢力重劃底費率可以提撥5%來作為設宅的用地目前所有這些底費率的表層都超過他的成本我建議內政部"},{"start":422.91,"end":429.859,"text":"台中市政府如果要再拿出來飆售的時候 內政部你去飆你去飆"},{"start":431.446,"end":454.513,"text":"來作為社會住宅人民會站在內政部這一邊還是站在市場這一邊我想希望這個國土署也就這一方面來做一個表態我來不及讓你回答因為還有一個地方的議題希望國土署這邊趕快來處理就是高雄橋頭科學園區目前設置的進度他緊接的台積電之後"},{"start":455.333,"end":475.776,"text":"﹗"},{"start":476.016,"end":476.036,"text":"來 署長"},{"start":504.556,"end":526.393,"text":"首先是我們在明年提的這個計畫裡面是直接會針對地方政府他如果土地是可以專案讓售給中央的話那我們直接來協商沒有啦我的意思是說你直接去跟他標啦因為我們大概現在還不能但是專案讓售的話我們當然是希望拿成本來標嘛對不對這樣才對真正的市民是有利的啊不是已經重劃之後的價錢啊對啊"},{"start":527.834,"end":528.135,"text":"李柏毅委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:27.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:27.376000+08:00","text":"謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:27.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:34.701000+08:00","text":"我們請內政部林部長，接下來請警政署，警政署的議題之後再請國土管理署。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:35.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:39.464000+08:00","text":"好，我們請部長以及兩位署長上臺。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林部長右昌","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:39.464000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:40.464000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:39.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:41.046000+08:00","text":"部長，我們有聯絡方式嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:41.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:42.887000+08:00","text":"你有沒有我的email？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林部長右昌","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:42.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:46.744500+08:00","text":"我沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:46.744500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:50.602000+08:00","text":"你寄信給我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長右昌","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:50.602000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:54.459500+08:00","text":"我們用LINE比較快。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:54.459500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:12:58.317000+08:00","text":"你看一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長右昌","start":"2024-03-18T11:12:58.317000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:02.174500+08:00","text":"你說這個是詐騙的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:02.174500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:06.032000+08:00","text":"這是禮拜六我收到的，來，你的家庭地址我已經調查清楚，請你在Facebook公開發帖會退出民進黨，7天內退黨，否則你全家會成為刀下亡魂。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:06.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:12.555000+08:00","text":"來，黃署長，類似這些恐嚇郵件，請問本會的立委有多少位收到了，還有多少位沒有收到？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:13.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:16.777000+08:00","text":"目前警政署受理委員的部分……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:16.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:20.338000+08:00","text":"這一件還沒受理，當天我就覺得太多了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:20.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:23.260000+08:00","text":"目前已經有15件、16人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:24.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:33.260000+08:00","text":"昨天黃捷委員在花蓮演講，那個算不算也是在恐嚇委員？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:33.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:34.961000+08:00","text":"是，也有受理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:34.961000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:35.961000+08:00","text":"也有受理了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:35.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:36.641000+08:00","text":"黃捷委員這一件也受理，這是個人……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:38.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:13:55.886000+08:00","text":"署長，我請問你，我們當然都知道這些是恐嚇，也都覺得這可能都來自境外，但是我們希望警政署可以在第一時間很清楚的說明，而不是說我們要調查他的來源等等。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:13:56.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:13.091000+08:00","text":"我們也有家人，我不報案不代表我的家人不會害怕，所以你要趕快讓所有的社會大眾可以很快、很清楚地瞭解這些相關的內容到底是怎樣。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:13.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:15.192000+08:00","text":"署長，可不可以趕快明確說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:15.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:16.192000+08:00","text":"不是在這裡說明，未來遇到類似案件的話，我們要怎麼樣處理？","quality":0.28},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:16.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:17.192000+08:00","text":"我在選舉期間整整1個月都被恐嚇，這個恐嚇信件還跟我對話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:17.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:18.192000+08:00","text":"我們要怎麼樣趕快讓社會大眾知道這個類型的案件、知道警政署怎麼樣因應，讓社會大眾知道來自境外的目的是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:18.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:19.192000+08:00","text":"就是認知作戰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:16.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:16.892000+08:00","text":"來，署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:16.892000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:23.182250+08:00","text":"這個我們可以這樣做，如果偵查出是在境外或者是用哪一個國家當跳板……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:23.182250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:29.472500+08:00","text":"偵查出來要多久會知道在境外？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:29.472500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:35.762750+08:00","text":"一般大概幾個小時就可以瞭解到底他的IP是在哪個國家落點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:35.762750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:42.053000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝署長，您請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:14:42.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:14:44.234000+08:00","text":"內政部其實掌管非常多，我想要先就現在最夯的住宅問題請教。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:15:12.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:15:24.567000+08:00","text":"明年台積電就要進駐我的選區──左營、楠梓，台積電進駐之後，1,500個以上的工程師加上周邊的就業、產業，會有非常大量的人口移入。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:15:28.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:15:37.894000+08:00","text":"署長，這個月高雄鄰近左營兩區的預售屋超過1,000戶，你知道嗎？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:15:37.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:16:22.910000+08:00","text":"都是3天clean，鄰近左營的兩個預售屋都是3天完銷，住宅的需求非常高，所以高雄市跟住都中心合作，在左營跟楠梓再加上仁武興建4個社宅，但是社宅興建完成跟台積電設廠其實搭不起來，也就是說，短期內會有大量的住宅需求，所以你看到這些預售屋飆漲，不只飆漲，預售屋也在很快的速度內去化，可見我們可能需要很大量的租金補貼等等。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:16:30.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:16:48.290000+08:00","text":"我們從內政部的報告裡面看到，去年度開始申請租金補貼的這些戶數，全臺灣一共43萬戶，這43萬戶裡面有很多是沒有辦法出來申請的，這原因包含什麼？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:16:48.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:16:59.234000+08:00","text":"原因包含害怕申請之後，房東可能就要請我離開不要租了，這些人要住哪裡？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:16:59.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:17:18.925000+08:00","text":"我當然知道內政部也有對房東祭出罰則，如果你因為這樣拒絕房客申請，可以罰3萬到30萬等，但是房東被罰錢不怕，房客最害怕的是他真的被趕出去。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:17:19.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:17:33.258000+08:00","text":"如果在這一段時間真的被趕出去，我希望國土署、內政部好好研議這個問題，讓所有的租客可以安心申請租金補貼。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:17:34.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:17:36.201000+08:00","text":"相關的安置內容你可不可以現在先回應？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:17:36.201000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:17:41.565000+08:00","text":"部長要不要回應？","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"林部長右昌","start":"2024-03-18T11:17:41.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:18:08.698000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝委員的指教，我們現在已經跟法扶中心建立法律諮詢服務的一個平臺，預計今年上半年基本上把它建置完畢，下半年的時候可以上路，可以提供房東還是房客，如果他有遇到糾紛的時候，可以採取法律保障的作為。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:18:09.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:18:25.992000+08:00","text":"沒有糾紛，這也不是法律保障，部長，這個很清楚，如果房客跟縣市政府申請租金補貼之後，在3個月內被房東掃地出門，政府有什麼措施安置被掃地出門的人？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:18:25.992000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:18:26.992000+08:00","text":"他是被你鼓勵來申請租金補貼，卻因為這個租金補貼被房東趕出去了，政府要不要做什麼樣的準備，因應這一些問題？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:18:26.992000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:18:27.992000+08:00","text":"當然重罰我是贊成的，但是我們要怎麼樣因應這一些問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:18:27.992000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:18:28.992000+08:00","text":"請內政部儘速研議，安所有租屋客的心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:18:27.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:19:34.808000+08:00","text":"最後，去年12月內政部通過「推動社會住宅成果與提升社宅用地供給精進措施」，希望在2025到2032進行，你還是設到明年開始，縣市政府市地重劃的抵費地可以提撥5%作為社宅用地，目前這些抵費地的標售都超過它的成本，我建議內政部，臺中市政府如果再拿出來標售的時候，內政部去標來作為社會住宅，人民會站在內政部這一邊，還是站在市場這一邊？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:19:35.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:19:40.089000+08:00","text":"希望國土署也就這一方面表態。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:19:40.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:19:52.493000+08:00","text":"我來不及讓你回答，因為還有一個地方的議題，希望國土署趕快處理，就是高雄橋頭科學園區目前設置的進度，它緊接著台積電之後，目前它從這個計畫道路的開闢跟廠商選址是同一個時段，也就是其實現在廠商選址之外，廠商可以進去開始建廠，為什麼都還沒有進去？","quality":0.464},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:19:52.493000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:19:59.667333+08:00","text":"因為進不去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:19:59.667333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:20:06.841667+08:00","text":"所以我希望國土署跟高雄市政府可以趕快地配合，讓廠商可以進去選址之外，它有一段聯外道路沒有辦法連接到省道，我在擔任市議員的期間一直不斷要求市政府、地政局趕快來開闢這條道路，但是也要跟國土署做配合。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:20:06.841667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:20:14.016000+08:00","text":"希望國土署就剛剛這兩件事情一併做回應，包括橋頭科學園區聯外道路，還有要不要去標縣市政府抵費地的問題，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:20:14.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:20:14.036000+08:00","text":"來，署長。謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T11:20:42.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:20:52.684000+08:00","text":"首先，在我們明年提的這個計畫裡面是直接會針對地方政府如果土地可以專案讓售給中央的話，我們直接來協商……","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:20:52.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:20:54.926000+08:00","text":"沒有，我的意思是你直接去跟它標啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T11:20:55.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:20:57.388000+08:00","text":"對，我知道，因為我們大概現在還不會，但是專案讓售的話是……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:20:57.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:00.110000+08:00","text":"我們當然是希望拿成本來標，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:00.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:02.011000+08:00","text":"這樣才對真正的市民是有利的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:02.011000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:03.011000+08:00","text":"沒錯、沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:02.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:04.353000+08:00","text":"不是已經重劃之後的價錢。是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:04.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:07.995857+08:00","text":"第二個是聯外道路的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:08.295857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:12.581571+08:00","text":"你要設法、設法，就是針對抵費地這個。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:12.881571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:15.167286+08:00","text":"我知道，因為高公局……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:15.467286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:22.038714+08:00","text":"高雄市已經做了超過2萬戶的社宅，臺中不是做不到1萬戶？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:22.338714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:24.624429+08:00","text":"來，給我書面回應。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員柏毅","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:24.924429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:27.781571+08:00","text":"我看主席站起來了，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:28.081571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:32.653000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝柏毅委員，謝謝部長，謝謝署長。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:32.953000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:37.238714+08:00","text":"現在處理臨時提案總共有7案，請宣讀。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:37.538714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:38.967286+08:00","text":"召委、主席。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:39.267286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:45.838714+08:00","text":"請教一下，剛剛主席有宣告臨時提案是10點以前截止嘛？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:46.138714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:21:50.138714+08:00","text":"現在變成7案，本來不是只有4案嗎？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:21:50.438714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:22:00.153000+08:00","text":"是不是也另外3案……我看內容裡面可能大家再討論一下，是不是今天先處理前面這4案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:22:00.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:22:16.167286+08:00","text":"是這樣子，剛剛提案來的時候，因為只有3分鐘，我也接受了，我有交代議事人員，未來各黨團如果在3分鐘內提出來的，我們也都接受，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:22:16.467286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:22:17.895857+08:00","text":"好啦，尊重他。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:22:18.195857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:22:20.195857+08:00","text":"不好意思，謝謝你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:22:20.495857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:22:23.638714+08:00","text":"我們以後都比照辦理，感謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:22:23.938714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:22:25.653000+08:00","text":"現在來宣讀。一、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:22:25.953000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:22:45.953000+08:00","text":"有鑑於內政部於數位身分證推動過程中，未針對社會諸多疑慮，如資安問題、數據隱私、效益不明顯等等進行政策溝通，且怠惰訂定專法，先招標、再開會，使專家淪為橡皮圖章。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:22:46.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:22:51.967286+08:00","text":"前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:22:52.267286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:22:54.553000+08:00","text":"導致鉅額賠償費用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:22:54.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:23:05.424429+08:00","text":"爰提案要求內政部對全案提出檢討與未來政策方向報告，於一個月內送本院內政委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:23:05.724429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:23:08.581571+08:00","text":"徐欣瑩　　許宇甄　　黃建賓二、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:23:08.881571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:23:32.310143+08:00","text":"有鑑於執法機關應共同合作、打擊不法，查海巡署於112年10月12日向內政部警政署申請介接車輛辨識系統，內政部警政署於同年12月29日以涉及個資法，請海巡署逕洽個資法主管機關釋疑後，再行評估審酌介接。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:23:32.610143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:23:43.181571+08:00","text":"海巡署業於113年1月11日函發個人資料保護委員會籌備處函釋，致至今5個月仍未完成系統介接。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:23:43.481571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:23:52.053000+08:00","text":"爰提案要求內政部對全案提出檢討報告，於一個月內送本院內政委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:23:52.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:23:55.210143+08:00","text":"徐欣瑩　　許宇甄　　黃建賓三、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:23:55.510143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:25:07.795857+08:00","text":"鑑於臺東縣面積3,515.25平方公里，占台灣面積9.78%，是台灣第三大縣，就臺東縣113年度附屬單位預算，臺東縣消防人員預算員額僅411人，平均一個人負責守護8.5平方公里，參照臺東縣消防局2023年救災防護暨其他案件類統計，火災、救護及載送等相關案件，總計近26,719件，再加上台東幅員遼闊以及城鄉社區距離較長，長期人力不足下導致台東消防救護工作壓力極大，因此人員異動頻繁，據臺東縣政府推估，臺東縣需要之消防人力約738人，仍有372人的巨大缺口，亟待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力，爰提案要求內政部於一個月內就協助增加臺東縣消防人力與設備資源擬具相關規劃案，以維護臺東縣消防環境與人民生命財產安全。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:25:08.095857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:25:11.238714+08:00","text":"黃建賓　　許宇甄　　高金素梅四、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:25:11.538714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:27:10.395857+08:00","text":"鑑於數位身分證換發政策失當，契約暫停執行衍生增加費用，與內政部在規劃案及管理專法尚未完成前，急就章將案件發包給廠商印製、驗證、建置系統，最終因政府政策不透明，評估小組淪為橡皮圖章，學者、專家、民代抗議專業被踐踏，以及資安及隱私權被侵害風險未解，相關預算被本院凍結，最後計畫被行政院中止；得標廠商欲履約卻因計畫中止而被暫停執行，因而向政府求償，審計部對此亦函請行政院研謀妥善處理之策，儘速確立新式身分證換發政策，以降低因契約暫停執行所產生之不經濟支出；今年本院委員已多次對此問題提出質詢，內政部迄今無法說明清楚；政府因內政部數位身分證換發政策失當所購買機器設備、系統建置、印製材料及賠償金，衍生支出費用超過14億元，現已全部轉嫁由人民承擔；內政部推動數位身分證換發政策違失情節明確，不思改進，刻意隱瞞，為查明數位身分證換發政策違失情況，茲依《立法院職權行使法》第45條第1項規定，提案建請立法院內政委員會，針對「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行違失」乙案成立調閱專案小組，儘速釐清真相，追究相關失職人員責任，以善盡國會監督職責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:27:10.695857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:27:13.553000+08:00","text":"許宇甄　　牛煦庭　　黃建賓五、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:27:13.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:27:45.567286+08:00","text":"林口影視園區社宅規劃，中央不願重視地方強烈反彈，無視林口在社宅數占比已是全國相當高比例之地區，且對於周遭國民教育學校都已額滿，更違反目前土地使用分區管理不供住宅使用之法令規定，對於影視園區中部分遭廠商棄標之土地蠻橫評估變更為社會住宅。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:27:45.867286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:28:02.724429+08:00","text":"爰此提案要求內政部兩個月內與地方政府進行溝通，重視林口鄉親希望維持原本發展影視園區之目標與願景，積極重視地方需求與在地就業。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:28:03.024429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:28:07.881571+08:00","text":"牛煦庭　　黃建賓　　徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　　洪孟楷六、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:28:08.181571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:28:40.181571+08:00","text":"關於淡水淡海新市鎮之交通規劃建設，因應淡江大橋2025年通車前交通評估及區域改善，在2023年內政委員會考察時提出配合淡海新市鎮二期之計畫到路，公路總局也確定規劃淡海新市鎮二期從沙崙路北沿40米寬之計畫道路，緩解未來淡江大橋通車後產生於淡水端之龐大車流。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:28:40.481571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:28:55.910143+08:00","text":"考量地方對交通之需求，該工程已確定系統建設之計畫，期相關單位案規劃之進度加速辦理、推動工程進行目標，完善區域交通建設。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:28:56.210143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:29:07.067286+08:00","text":"爰提案要求內政部一個月內完成經費補助審核作業並提出進度之書面報告回復提案委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:29:07.367286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:29:12.224429+08:00","text":"牛煦庭　　黃建賓　　徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　　洪孟楷七、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:29:12.524429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:29:54.524429+08:00","text":"林口特定區計畫保護區面積占約一萬一千多公頃，目前保護區係依「都市計畫法桃園市施行細則」與「都市計畫法新北市施行細則」規定管理，相關保護區檢討調整經101內政部4月24日都市計畫委員會第778次會議中決議關於林口特定區保護區開發許可要點之通盤檢討及內容妥適性詳細予以檢視後再行辦理，惟進度延宕及地方鄉親積極關心，實有加速推進之必要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:29:54.824429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:30:14.538714+08:00","text":"爰此，關於林口特定計畫保護區，提案要求內政部兩個月內邀集新北、桃園市府督促提出通盤檢討及內容妥適性評估，作為整體計畫的開展，並與地方鄉親舉辦座談說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:30:14.838714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:30:19.410143+08:00","text":"牛煦庭　　黃建賓　　徐欣瑩　　高金素梅　　洪孟楷","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:30:19.710143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:30:32.281571+08:00","text":"召委在這邊提醒一下在場的官員還有委員們，因為我在9點開會的時候就已經說了，我們的臨時提案是到10點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:30:32.581571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:30:50.581571+08:00","text":"今天國民黨黨團有幾個案子是10點3分進入的，我跟議事人員交代，未來在10點3分前收到了各黨團的臨時提案，我們按照規則，大家都一樣，所以這次一併來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:30:50.881571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:31:05.167286+08:00","text":"第二件事情就是提案人員還有相關的各部會的協調有一些文字的部分，本席希望在召開臨時提案之前趕快處理，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:31:05.467286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:31:29.181571+08:00","text":"因為我已經有滿長時間給你們去跟各提案委員交流、溝通是不是可以做一些文字上的修正，可以修正的，我們就不要浪費太多的時間在這邊大家再一起討論；如果不能修正的部分，我們就來處理，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:31:29.481571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:31:41.195857+08:00","text":"目前第三案、第六案、第七案有一些文字修正，提案委員也同意了，所以我們先處理這三案，請宣讀，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王秘書珮瑛","start":"2024-03-18T11:31:41.495857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:31:51.495857+08:00","text":"第三案倒數第四行「亟待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力」這些文字修改為「黃建賓」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王秘書珮瑛","start":"2024-03-18T11:31:51.795857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:31:53.510143+08:00","text":"這些文字刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:31:53.810143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:31:58.667286+08:00","text":"請議事人員再說一遍第三案，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王秘書珮瑛","start":"2024-03-18T11:31:58.967286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:32:07.538714+08:00","text":"第三案，倒數第4行：「亟待內政部統一協調增加縣市消防人力」這些文字刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:32:07.838714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:32:08.981571+08:00","text":"好，可以吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:32:09.281571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:32:12.710143+08:00","text":"來，現在我們再來處理第六案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:32:13.010143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:32:19.867286+08:00","text":"第三案照修正文字通過，對，我們提案委員是OK，沒問題嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:32:20.167286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:32:21.310143+08:00","text":"建賓委員？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:32:21.610143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:32:22.610143+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王秘書珮瑛","start":"2024-03-18T11:32:22.910143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:32:44.053000+08:00","text":"第六案第3行道路的「道」修正文字，第2段文字修正為「考量地方對交通之需求，該工程已確定系統建設之計畫，期相關單位按規劃之進度加速辦理、推動工程進行目標，完善區域交通建設。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王秘書珮瑛","start":"2024-03-18T11:32:44.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:32:54.924429+08:00","text":"爰提案要求內政部一個月內提出進度之書面報告（含經費編列及開闢方式）回復提案委員。」","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:32:55.224429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:32:59.795857+08:00","text":"好，以上修正文字，提案委員沒有問題吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:33:00.095857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:33:01.238714+08:00","text":"孟楷委員？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:33:01.538714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:33:05.253000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題，就按照修正文字通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:33:05.553000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:33:06.553000+08:00","text":"第七案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王秘書珮瑛","start":"2024-03-18T11:33:06.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:33:28.281571+08:00","text":"第七案第2段修正為「爰此，關於林口特定計畫保護區，提案內政部一個月內督促新北、桃園市府儘速提出通盤檢討及內容妥適性評估，作為整體計畫的開展，並與地方鄉親舉辦座談說明」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:33:28.581571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:33:33.153000+08:00","text":"「請內政部一個月內……」也都唸完了，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:33:33.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:33:38.310143+08:00","text":"好，請問一下這個修正文字沒問題吧？可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:33:38.610143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:33:42.038714+08:00","text":"好，我們就按照修正文字通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:33:42.338714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:33:53.481571+08:00","text":"我們現在回來處理第一案，剛剛已經宣讀了，都宣讀過了，第一案提案委員好像堅持這個部分嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:33:53.781571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:00.067286+08:00","text":"然後我們的相關單位，這樣子的問題你們有什麼意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:00.367286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:03.795857+08:00","text":"你剛剛跟提案委員溝通了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:04.095857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:16.095857+08:00","text":"我剛剛從9點到現在已經有給你們3個小時溝通了，所以如果溝通還不接受的話，那麼我們就表決，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:16.395857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:18.681571+08:00","text":"可不可以說明一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:18.981571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:22.410143+08:00","text":"請他說明一下，我們沒有聽到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:22.710143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:24.424429+08:00","text":"好，請說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:24.724429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:26.438714+08:00","text":"拿麥克風好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:26.738714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:29.595857+08:00","text":"麻煩你站到上面來，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:29.895857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:56.753000+08:00","text":"這部分因為要使一些文字更明確，我們是建議修正，原則上我們會提供相關的政策報告資料，裡面有些文字因為跟實際上有一點不符，所以我們是建議稍微做一下修正，比如說第3行「前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:57.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:34:59.338714+08:00","text":"導致鉅額賠償費用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:34:59.638714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:35:23.353000+08:00","text":"」這幾個文字，因為這個案子──有關換發新式身分證計畫曾經提過立法院，院裡面也通過預算，而且這個鉅額的賠償也還沒有確定，這是一個補償，不是賠償的費用，所以我們建議是不是把這幾個字刪掉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:35:23.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:35:29.938714+08:00","text":"就是「前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:35:30.238714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:35:32.524429+08:00","text":"導致鉅額賠償費用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:35:32.824429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:35:35.395857+08:00","text":"」這幾個字把它刪除掉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:35:35.695857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:35:39.410143+08:00","text":"好，請問欣瑩委員，前面這幾個字……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:35:39.710143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:35:46.567286+08:00","text":"報告主席，前兩分鐘突然拿給我看，我是覺得這個不用改啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:35:46.867286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:35:51.724429+08:00","text":"就是照這樣，內政委員會其他委員也覺得……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:35:52.024429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:36:09.738714+08:00","text":"好的，是這樣子，召委必須要譴責一下你們，我們從9點已經拿到了這個臨時提案，一直到今天要處理，現在11點33分了，這當中你們都沒有跟提案委員來溝通嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:36:10.038714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:36:19.753000+08:00","text":"所以如果沒有溝通的話，本席就覺得這個案要來表決，來，同意第一案的請舉手，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:36:20.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:36:23.481571+08:00","text":"主席，等一下，我表達一下意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:36:23.781571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:36:26.353000+08:00","text":"不好意思，請表達，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:36:26.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:36:28.081571+08:00","text":"是這樣子啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:36:28.381571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:36:42.381571+08:00","text":"我們內政委員會一向在處理這個，如果說督促我們行政部門去做一個政策方向的檢討，這個其實我們都會表達支持啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:36:42.681571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:36:45.824429+08:00","text":"但是像剛剛那個官員你是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:36:46.124429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:36:48.410143+08:00","text":"戶政司的代理司長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:36:48.710143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:37:18.710143+08:00","text":"戶政司，照他所言「前揭種種使立法院朝野一致，沒有委員支持該案」如果這些不是事實的話，我們來表決這一個不是的前提，也好奇怪，我是支持徐委員要求內政部提出整個檢討跟未來政策方向的報告，中間這個字就變成是不是針對文字來稍微做一個修正？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:37:19.010143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:37:30.724429+08:00","text":"大家可以來支持你，要求整個內政部對這個全案未來該怎麼辦來做出一個報告，這個是非常合理啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:37:31.024429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:37:43.881571+08:00","text":"但是如果照戶政司所講的，也沒有說什麼朝野一致、沒有委員來支持該案，是不是我們通過這樣的文字也不妥……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:37:44.181571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:37:50.467286+08:00","text":"召委現在來做一個……我們不要浪費太多的時間，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:37:50.767286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:38:24.767286+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛一直在講戶政司，有3個小時請你們去跟委員溝通，縱使這些文字如剛剛我們莊瑞雄幹事長所提的，但是你有沒有覺得我們的行政官員實在是太不重視這個部分了，我已經提過在哪一個委員質詢結束之後要處理臨時提案，所以今天我覺得這個例子不可以再開，我就表決，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:38:25.067286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:39:10.210143+08:00","text":"請幹事長理解，因為每一個委員會裡面必須要有一些些它的交流溝通模式，我覺得今天已經有3個小時請行政單位去跟委員溝通，而且我必須要說明，在我還沒有處理臨時提案的時候，我一直請議事人員、交代議事人員今天的臨時提案請行政單位跟委員趕快溝通，一直到剛剛徐欣瑩委員說3分鐘前才跟他溝通，如果你今天做召委，你覺得今天這樣一個裁示，你是不是覺得被踐踏，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:39:10.510143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:39:15.653000+08:00","text":"請你們也理解一下召委，我今天要維持一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:39:15.953000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:39:21.095857+08:00","text":"我可以理解召委、理解主席這樣一個心情啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:39:21.395857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:39:33.110143+08:00","text":"但是我是覺得涉及到整個文字的敘述，如果說前提事實不對，我們用表決把它通過，這個有點開玩笑……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:39:33.410143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:39:38.553000+08:00","text":"戶政司代理司長，為什麼你們不早一點去呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:39:38.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:39:43.138714+08:00","text":"不然我一定會尊重主席裁決的權力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:39:43.438714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:39:44.581571+08:00","text":"主席、主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:39:44.881571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:39:46.310143+08:00","text":"請提案委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:39:46.610143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:39:59.753000+08:00","text":"這一個案確實朝野一致，就是這個案後來到現在都沒執行，就是暫緩，所以就我瞭解，莊委員那時候你也沒支持啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:40:00.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:40:10.053000+08:00","text":"所以我們這樣寫沒有錯，朝野一致對這個案大家都不支持，所以這個案才會停下來啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:40:10.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:40:17.781571+08:00","text":"到現在它停下來以後，照理應該要再積極的想辦法，但是沒有嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:40:18.081571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:40:25.510143+08:00","text":"我們就是看到這個部分，所以我想這個文字上應該它的意思，對……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:40:25.810143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:40:51.810143+08:00","text":"好，召委現在已經請各位委員充分表達你們的意見了，召委必須要行使一下，我在這邊做召委，我非常尊重各位委員，我也尊重各行政單位，你們在3個小時當中都不去處理這樣子的文字溝通，我要給你們譴責，所以我們就表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:40:52.110143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:40:54.395857+08:00","text":"第一案，我們來表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:40:54.695857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:41:01.553000+08:00","text":"同意徐欣瑩委員所提出的這個臨時提案請舉手，謝謝。幾位？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:41:01.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:41:06.995857+08:00","text":"好，我們是本委員會裡面的來表決，有1、2、3、4、5、6，6席同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:41:07.295857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:41:10.153000+08:00","text":"不同意的請舉手，謝謝，1、2、3、4、5、6，6席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:41:10.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:41:24.738714+08:00","text":"同樣的，按照立法院職權行使法，如果大家有意見的話，就是主席可以來做最後的決定，所以主席也同意這個臨時提案，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:41:25.038714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:41:31.324429+08:00","text":"現在的表決是7：6，所以第一案我們就讓它表決通過，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:41:31.624429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:41:38.481571+08:00","text":"臨時提案第二案，請我們行政單位來說明一下文字，請署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:41:38.781571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:41:41.638714+08:00","text":"召委及各位委員大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:41:41.938714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:41:51.653000+08:00","text":"臨時提案第二案，我們是建議倒數第1行「對全案提出檢討報告」能不能改為「進度報告」？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:41:51.953000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:42:06.810143+08:00","text":"因為這是去年的10月12號提出來的，而且這涉及到很多行政部門、還有縣市端的協調聯繫，我們是不是改為以進度做一個說明？以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:42:07.110143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:42:12.538714+08:00","text":"署長，你們是什麼時候跟徐欣瑩委員去溝通的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:42:12.838714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:42:14.838714+08:00","text":"也是3分鐘之前嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:42:15.138714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:42:16.567286+08:00","text":"沒有，早一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:42:16.867286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:42:18.295857+08:00","text":"之前就溝通……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:42:18.595857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:42:33.453000+08:00","text":"但是我有跟他提說就是「檢討報告」，因為這個就是有問題，所以我要請你們檢討，就這樣，檢討報告裡面可以含進度報告，沒問題。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:42:33.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:42:40.895857+08:00","text":"剛剛徐欣瑩委員在做質詢的時候，本席也聽得非常的清楚啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:42:41.195857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:01.481571+08:00","text":"署長，的確我覺得你這個辨識系統介接的部分，你們應該儘速，而且好像有一段時間沒有處理了，只要你們能夠再跟其他的行政單位來協調合作，其實就可以儘早，好不好？好，是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:01.781571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:07.781571+08:00","text":"欣瑩委員，有關進度報告，你還是堅持「檢討報告」對吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:08.081571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:13.510143+08:00","text":"好，檢討報告，我們還是一樣，就是尊重提案委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:13.810143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:15.810143+08:00","text":"是不是可以補充？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:16.110143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:17.824429+08:00","text":"好，你補充，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:18.124429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:24.410143+08:00","text":"因為這個有涉及到國發會的部分，因為國發會的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:24.710143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:25.710143+08:00","text":"我瞭解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:26.010143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:31.724429+08:00","text":"對，那我們還要再去跟他們解釋，他們的見解以後……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:32.024429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:35.167286+08:00","text":"也已經很久了，署長，抱歉喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:35.467286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:43:46.895857+08:00","text":"徐欣瑩委員剛剛在質詢的時候，已經把這個時間拖很久了，你縱使要跟他們來討論，你應該儘早嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:43:47.195857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:06.624429+08:00","text":"就等於好像這件事情一直擺在那邊都不處理，今天要不是欣瑩委員再做質詢的話，你們恐怕是繼續擺在那裡，其實這對這些介接還有國安的系統其實也是有問題的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:06.924429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:14.638714+08:00","text":"我再補充報告，因為國發會的函文請示是海巡署，不是我內政部啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃署長明昭","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:14.938714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:21.510143+08:00","text":"所以這個全部歸責在我這邊檢討，實在涉及到行政部門……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:21.810143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:22.953000+08:00","text":"沒關係啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:23.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:26.681571+08:00","text":"你就把這件事情給扛起來嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:26.981571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:27.981571+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:28.281571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:34.567286+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛講過，海巡署有非常多的警務人員，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:34.867286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:35.867286+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:36.167286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:40.167286+08:00","text":"好，我們就……來，部長，你還有補充說明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長右昌","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:40.467286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:44:59.610143+08:00","text":"我非常尊重委員的意見，不過因為涉及的是國發會，國發會是行政院的幕僚單位，那因為這個它是主管機關，我們必須尊重，所以這一點也必須特別報告，請委員瞭解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:44:59.910143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:13.053000+08:00","text":"這樣子，我們就先文字修正，您先看，就是說是不是提案要求內政部跟其他的部會來提出進度的檢討報告，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:13.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:14.353000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:14.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:19.510143+08:00","text":"進度也放裡面，我們才比較能夠要求他們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:19.810143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:22.953000+08:00","text":"提出進度的檢討報告。對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:23.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:26.110143+08:00","text":"進度的檢討報告，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:26.410143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:28.410143+08:00","text":"過程的檢討報告？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:28.710143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:31.567286+08:00","text":"我覺得過程就不要了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:31.867286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:36.153000+08:00","text":"我們就請這個……反正您是今天提出嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:36.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:44.738714+08:00","text":"我們也尊重您，就從今天開始我們來請他們提出檢討進度報告，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:45.038714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:46.753000+08:00","text":"好，我尊重召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:47.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:48.053000+08:00","text":"可以吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:48.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:45:50.067286+08:00","text":"好，來，再唸一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員明政","start":"2024-03-18T11:45:50.367286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:02.367286+08:00","text":"修正文字最後一段：「爰提案要求內政部與相關部會提出進度檢討報告，於一個月內送本院內政委員會」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:02.667286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:04.381571+08:00","text":"這樣可以了吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:04.681571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:06.110143+08:00","text":"署長，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:06.410143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:07.553000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝您。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:07.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:10.710143+08:00","text":"現在我們來處理第四案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:11.010143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:14.438714+08:00","text":"請問一下有沒有部會要說明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:14.738714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:16.738714+08:00","text":"好，也是代理司長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:17.038714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:18.753000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:19.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:39.338714+08:00","text":"這個案子我們事先有跟許委員這邊稍微說明一下，也有跟辦公室的主任來溝通一下，那目前比較有共識的部分是「計畫中止」改成「計畫暫緩」，因為整個計畫還沒有中止，是暫緩。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:39.638714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:46:53.638714+08:00","text":"第二個部分是補償金，因為那個不是損害的補償，它不是賠償金，它是一個補償金，所以11行裡面那個賠償金就改成「補償金」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:46:53.938714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:47:21.081571+08:00","text":"跟委員比較沒有一致的部分，委員還是希望能夠成立一個調查小組來調查相關的資料，那我們是希望能夠在一個月內提供數位身分證換發政策及預算執行的書面報告給內政委員會，一個月內，那這一部分是比較沒有共識的，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:47:21.381571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:47:23.381571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝代理司長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:47:23.681571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:47:46.253000+08:00","text":"我們看一下第7行的「卻因計畫中止……」，那個「中止」，許委員是同意改為「暫緩」兩個字；然後接著下來就是「機器設備、系統建置、印製材料及賠償金」的部分，他同意列為「補償金」，這兩個的文字是同意這樣修正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:47:46.553000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:48:02.553000+08:00","text":"茲依《立法院職權行使法》第45條第1項規定，提案建請立法院內政委員會，針對「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行違失」乙案成立調閱專案小組。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:48:02.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:48:10.853000+08:00","text":"提案委員許委員是堅持要成立調閱小組，那你們是有意見的，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:48:11.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:48:13.438714+08:00","text":"好，請問一下許委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:48:13.738714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:48:46.881571+08:00","text":"對，本席堅持要成立調閱專案小組，因為其實在這過程中，就像剛剛我在質詢的時候，我從決算報告中看出來，我們其實目前已經花了十四億多，但是內政部卻只用2.8億這邊來告訴大家是這樣子的一個賠償金，所以我認為這個部分應該是要有專案的調閱小組，才能夠把這個事情釐清。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:48:47.181571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:48:55.181571+08:00","text":"好，提案委員堅持用要成立調閱專案小組，我們是不是也來表決一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:48:55.481571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:48:59.481571+08:00","text":"請問一下民進黨的幹事長，請說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:48:59.781571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:49:34.638714+08:00","text":"我跟主席還有跟在場所有委員來報告一下，這個案子其實第8屆的時候，我就跟主席在這個地方，當初從2013年針對國民身分證跟自然人憑證結合開始去做研究，到了第8屆、第9屆，然後行政院在110年它的會議裡面暫緩整個數位身分證的換發以後，我記得我們在2021年朝野協商的時候，是把整筆的預算來做封存。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:49:34.938714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:49:53.795857+08:00","text":"現在如果你說要調閱小組，基於立法院其實我們過去也都有這個先例，我阻擋不了，我對這種監督行政部門的事情沒有那麼堅持，本來立法院就發揮監督的功能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:49:54.095857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:50:15.524429+08:00","text":"可是還是會碰到一個問題，比如說你衍生文字裡面有沒有可能不是……我最擔心的就是我們整個委員會裡面做出的，我們表決完，我們表決那個前提事實是……那個事實怎麼是用表決的呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:50:15.824429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:50:25.253000+08:00","text":"就讓他們適度的說明那個數字到底是多少，你說清楚，許委員要的是調閱小組啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:50:25.553000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:50:27.838714+08:00","text":"我是覺得也合理啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:50:28.138714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:50:32.424429+08:00","text":"但重點就是你們的數字要說清楚啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:50:32.724429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:50:37.295857+08:00","text":"他如果寫錯了，你們也要跟他溝通好啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:50:37.595857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:03.310143+08:00","text":"正確的數字講一下，我相信許委員也不會堅持說2億，他跟你說那個14億，你就要提醒他，請他趕快修正一下才對，所以那個數字我反而會覺得這個在朝野政黨之間，本來跟行政部門大家去溝通把文字弄得更精確，這是好事啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:51:03.610143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:07.038714+08:00","text":"召委，我再次做這樣的提醒啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:51:07.338714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:09.624429+08:00","text":"謝謝莊瑞雄幹事長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:51:09.924429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:11.638714+08:00","text":"我們請許委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:51:11.938714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:25.938714+08:00","text":"我想剛剛莊委員這邊所提到的數字，我是依據內政部的決算報告裡面所計算出來，要我這樣一筆一筆的把它唸出來嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:51:26.238714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:29.667286+08:00","text":"我想可能不需要那麼多時間……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:51:29.967286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:39.395857+08:00","text":"對，所以說總共就是……我得到的資料就是14億，超過14億，所以我想這個我是有所本的喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:51:39.695857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:51.124429+08:00","text":"所以我還是堅持，既然在這邊說不清楚，我覺得我們就是成立調閱專案小組來讓他們講清楚。主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:51:51.424429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:53.424429+08:00","text":"好，謝謝美惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:51:53.724429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:51:59.724429+08:00","text":"我們請行政部門再來稍微說明一下，對於14億的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:52:00.024429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:52:06.595857+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，許委員提到這14億裡面，其實是沒有那麼多啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:52:06.895857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:52:12.038714+08:00","text":"裡面有重複計算的部分，我跟委員一一報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:52:12.338714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:52:31.481571+08:00","text":"第一個，這個費用裡面第一個是我們跟中央印製廠契約的部分，我們跟中央印製廠契約的部分是以它印製每一張多少錢來支付，比如說一張可能是180、200塊，這個是按照……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:52:31.781571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:52:34.353000+08:00","text":"請你快速一點好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:52:34.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:52:41.224429+08:00","text":"因為剛剛許委員是有所本，是從這個決算書裡面看到的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:52:41.524429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:52:44.667286+08:00","text":"所以說是決算書有問題喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:52:44.967286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:52:54.681571+08:00","text":"第二個是中印跟它的委託廠商東元之間的賠償費用，是2.8億，這個是買材料的費用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳代理司長子和","start":"2024-03-18T11:52:54.981571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:53:12.695857+08:00","text":"第三個部分是中印為了要執行印製我的數位身分證，它自己去整修廠房跟購買設備，這一部分是大概3.79億，所以加起來應該是沒有像委員講的這麼多……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:53:12.995857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:53:13.995857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:53:14.295857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:53:26.010143+08:00","text":"他剛剛的說明其實也蠻清楚的，但是我們立法院的決算委員會裡面，的確提出的報告是如此，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:53:26.310143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:53:32.024429+08:00","text":"所以其實你們在調閱小組裡面談更清楚，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:53:32.324429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:53:33.324429+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:53:33.624429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:53:38.195857+08:00","text":"第四案，請問一下問民進黨委員同意嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長右昌","start":"2024-03-18T11:53:38.495857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:53:42.210143+08:00","text":"我只有一句話跟委員報告一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:53:42.510143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:53:48.510143+08:00","text":"好，我們尊重部長，來，請您快一點，快速的來說明一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長右昌","start":"2024-03-18T11:53:48.810143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:53:56.524429+08:00","text":"我們代理司長講的太複雜了，簡單來講，委員剛剛提到的是決算嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林部長右昌","start":"2024-03-18T11:53:56.824429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:54:09.967286+08:00","text":"那個數字是沒有錯，不過中央印製廠的決算數是我們內政部撥給它的，所以那一部分是重複計算，大概是這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:54:10.267286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:54:15.981571+08:00","text":"好，你在調閱專案小組裡面也可以說明清楚，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:54:16.281571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:54:23.138714+08:00","text":"部長，謝謝您，我也非常尊重行政官員還有部長的補充說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:54:23.438714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:54:32.867286+08:00","text":"請問一下民進黨的委員、內政委員會委員，我們是不是可以來處理這案了？召委。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:54:33.167286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:54:39.167286+08:00","text":"我是不是這樣建議，大家一起來同意文字做修正啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:54:39.467286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:54:43.181571+08:00","text":"你老經驗的人怎麼這樣，應該是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:54:43.481571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:54:46.910143+08:00","text":"那你覺得文字應該怎麼修正？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:54:47.210143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:54:51.210143+08:00","text":"看內政部這邊可不可以再提一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:54:51.510143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:00.653000+08:00","text":"請問一下許宇甄……其實我們看到有一些文字修正的部分，它都已經有修正了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:00.953000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:06.095857+08:00","text":"請問一下莊委員，你對哪一個文字還有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:06.395857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:08.681571+08:00","text":"你有沒有什麼意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:08.981571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:11.838714+08:00","text":"提出一下你很好的見解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:12.138714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:15.281571+08:00","text":"召委問了，我不敢不回答啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:15.581571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:17.010143+08:00","text":"我尊重大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:17.310143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:23.881571+08:00","text":"就是我們這整個臨時提案裡面，其實也不用放進去太多……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:24.181571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:25.895857+08:00","text":"你是說數字嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:26.195857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:27.910143+08:00","text":"費用的數字嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:28.210143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:35.638714+08:00","text":"數字你解釋完了我可以接受，因為我們立法院有這樣一個報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:35.938714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:39.081571+08:00","text":"好的，還有哪裡你覺得文字……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:39.381571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:48.238714+08:00","text":"比如說「換發政策違失情節明確，不思改進，刻意隱瞞」這個聽起來就怪怪的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:48.538714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:55:57.967286+08:00","text":"我們要去調查它，既然要調查就先不用去審判它了，這有未審先判的那種感覺啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:55:58.267286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:56:04.267286+08:00","text":"好，我們請提案委員回應，是不是接受莊委員的建議？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:56:04.567286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:56:05.710143+08:00","text":"我不接受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:56:06.010143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:56:13.438714+08:00","text":"因為針對這個部分，我們確實感受到的就是有刻意隱瞞之嫌啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:56:13.738714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:56:23.167286+08:00","text":"所以為什麼希望能夠成立調閱專案小組，就是希望能夠把這部分的疑慮釐清啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:56:23.467286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:56:25.181571+08:00","text":"這樣子好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:56:25.481571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:56:28.338714+08:00","text":"我們把「違失」拿掉好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:56:28.638714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:56:54.067286+08:00","text":"「換發政策違失情節明確」我也同意剛剛……因為我們還沒有調閱小組，我們的確不能夠未審先判，我們成立了調閱小組之後，我們才可以瞭解一下他們是不是有違失的情節，這一點我倒是同意莊瑞雄幹事長的提議，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:56:54.367286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:56:55.367286+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:56:55.667286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:56:59.667286+08:00","text":"請問許委員，我們在這邊文字修正？","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:56:59.967286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:57:01.110143+08:00","text":"可以，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:57:01.410143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:57:05.410143+08:00","text":"我們請議事人員來幫我們想一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員明政","start":"2024-03-18T11:57:05.710143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:57:18.853000+08:00","text":"如果有成立的話，建議內政委員會，數位身分證它調閱小組的名稱就「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行」調閱小組……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:57:19.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:57:21.724429+08:00","text":"好，「違失」也拿掉，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:57:22.024429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:57:29.453000+08:00","text":"就是「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行」乙案，莊委員這樣可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:57:29.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:57:33.181571+08:00","text":"我們把違失那兩個字都拿掉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:57:33.481571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:57:36.338714+08:00","text":"好，文字修正念一下，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員明政","start":"2024-03-18T11:57:36.638714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:57:56.924429+08:00","text":"臨時提案第四案修正文字：「提案建請立法內政委員會，針對『數位身分證換發政策及預算執行』乙案成立調閱小組，儘速釐清真相，追究相關失職人員責任，以善盡國會監督職責」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:57:57.224429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:58:06.367286+08:00","text":"還有前面「身分證換發政策違失情節明確」，這個「違失情節明確」把它拿掉，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭專門委員明政","start":"2024-03-18T11:58:06.667286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:58:13.524429+08:00","text":"「內政部推動數位身分證換發政策，不思改進，刻意隱瞞」這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:58:13.824429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:58:14.967286+08:00","text":"對，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:58:15.267286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:58:23.553000+08:00","text":"好，如果這樣子的文字修正大家同意的話，我們第四案也讓它通過，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2024-03-18T11:58:23.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:58:24.995857+08:00","text":"同意，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:58:25.295857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:58:29.010143+08:00","text":"第五案提案委員是洪孟楷委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-03-18T11:58:29.310143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:58:37.595857+08:00","text":"召委，我想提醒一下，我們內政委員會，臨時提案第四案「賠償」改成「補償」了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:58:37.895857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:58:40.467286+08:00","text":"對，賠償金變成補償金","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-03-18T11:58:40.767286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:58:49.338714+08:00","text":"但我們第一案還是「賠償費用」，這樣我們內委會兩個案子的用詞不一樣喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-03-18T11:58:49.638714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:59:03.638714+08:00","text":"是不是爭取徐欣瑩委員的同意，我們第一案也是把賠償變成補償，這樣我們內政委員會出去的才有一致，不然會怪怪的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:59:03.938714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:59:08.224429+08:00","text":"好，我們剛剛臨時提案是已經通過了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員宏陸","start":"2024-03-18T11:59:08.524429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:59:11.095857+08:00","text":"但是現在兩個不一樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:59:11.395857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:59:34.538714+08:00","text":"我也尊重委員，但是我今天要再提的就是我們的行政單位，並沒有在3個小時之內去找徐委員溝通，所以剛剛召委才會給他們一些懲罰，希望他們以後尊重一下召委在這邊所說的每一句話，提醒他們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:59:34.838714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:59:44.553000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛的建議，因為尊重我們委員，請問一下徐委員補償金跟賠償金的部分？好啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:59:44.853000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T11:59:47.138714+08:00","text":"OK，謝謝欣瑩委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T11:59:47.438714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:00:03.724429+08:00","text":"我再一次提醒行政官員，麻煩你們對召委已經說明的這些，今天我們委員會裡面的所有行政流程，請你們注意聽，也請你們尊重召委，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:00:04.024429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:00:12.310143+08:00","text":"以後在我處理臨時提案之前，趕快找提案委員來溝通一下，可以嗎？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:00:12.610143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:00:13.610143+08:00","text":"第五案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:00:13.910143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:00:16.767286+08:00","text":"第五案有沒有文字修正？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:00:17.067286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:00:18.495857+08:00","text":"請說明，署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T12:00:18.795857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:00:36.224429+08:00","text":"因為林口影視園區這一個本來就是國有土地，部分土地廠商棄標以後，國產署也通知我們可以一起來評估，所以我們納入評估本來就是非常合理的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T12:00:36.524429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:00:53.095857+08:00","text":"第二個，其實當時地方政府有一些意見，我想我們在過程當中，因為現在評估還沒有一個結果，等我們評估有一個結果都會跟地方政府去溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T12:00:53.395857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:04.538714+08:00","text":"所以有關其中的一些文字，是不是可以……因為我們有跟委員溝通，他有部分文字還是不同意修正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:04.838714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:29.124429+08:00","text":"但是我覺得站在對於國有土地的一個管理跟規劃以及長期角度來看，因為新北又是社宅缺口最大的地方，是不是讓我們可以評估以後來跟地方溝通，我想這一點我們是會尊重，但是有些文字還是希望修正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:29.424429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:34.567286+08:00","text":"好，我們也請提案人牛煦庭委員做一些回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:34.867286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:40.867286+08:00","text":"孟楷委員有特別跟我講啦，因為他會用這樣的文字……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:41.167286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:43.738714+08:00","text":"你們是共同提案人吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:44.038714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:45.753000+08:00","text":"因為我們處理……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:46.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:48.053000+08:00","text":"對，內委會提案嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:48.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:52.638714+08:00","text":"縱使洪孟楷委員不在，牛煦庭委員在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:52.938714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:54.653000+08:00","text":"對，我來說明啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:54.953000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:56.667286+08:00","text":"我是提案人啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:56.967286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:01:57.967286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:01:58.267286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:02:15.695857+08:00","text":"這個原因是這樣，我想部裡面應該也清楚，林口鄉親有抗爭、有連署，所以作為民意代表如果沒有辦法用……你也沒辦法讓孟楷委員跟林口的鄉親交代啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:02:15.995857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:02:21.138714+08:00","text":"所以這一部分希望部裡面是不是多多擔待。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:02:21.438714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:02:38.295857+08:00","text":"這個臨時提案的總體意旨關鍵，其實還是希望中央跟地方進行完善的溝通啦，所以我覺得文字修正與否不影響這個提案的意旨，是不是就趕快？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:02:38.595857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:02:46.024429+08:00","text":"我就特別再多講一句，如果真的溝通的結果是林口不要，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:02:46.324429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:02:50.038714+08:00","text":"拿來龜山，我來幫你溝通，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:02:50.338714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:02:54.910143+08:00","text":"你的社宅進度也可以照常推動，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T12:02:55.210143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:03:01.495857+08:00","text":"這個是國有地，剛好它位置在林口啦，因為龜山的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:03:01.795857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:03:05.795857+08:00","text":"事實上就是那邊的鄉親有抗爭嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:03:06.095857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:03:08.381571+08:00","text":"所以他提案，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2024-03-18T12:03:08.681571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:03:24.681571+08:00","text":"我瞭解，所以我的意思是，因為我們本來程序上就在做評估，其實不需要用到「蠻橫」這種字眼，因為國有土地本來交給我們評估也是很正常……","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:03:24.981571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:03:27.838714+08:00","text":"他剛剛有講是很堅持啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:03:28.138714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:03:31.853000+08:00","text":"他堅持，我們也尊重他啦，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:03:32.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:03:36.724429+08:00","text":"因為畢竟那是他林口的事情嘛，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2024-03-18T12:03:37.024429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:03:40.453000+08:00","text":"所以希望部裡面要擔待一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:03:40.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:03:42.753000+08:00","text":"好，我們請莊委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:03:43.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:04:03.338714+08:00","text":"跟主席還有各位委員報告，你看總統大選選完才多久而已，但新北市確實在整個社宅的部分缺口是最大的，各個政黨在選總統的時候都是信誓旦旦，說要多蓋多少、多蓋多少！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:04:03.638714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:04:30.495857+08:00","text":"我是比較難想像，雖然我們不屬於林口這樣的一個選區，可是整個社會住宅的建造，希望再繼續增加，這是各黨大家都一致希望的，而且在內政委員會，我們一直要求內政部、要求國土署，每次都修理他們，說他們進度都太慢，要快點找！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:04:30.795857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:04:46.224429+08:00","text":"像我都一直要拜託你們再去找，怎麼會說剛好是廠商棄標的國有土地，然後你去把它做評估變更為社會住宅，會變成是蠻橫的評估？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:04:46.524429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:04:54.810143+08:00","text":"評估也還沒出來，搞不好評估出來，新北市政府是很開心的也不一定啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:04:55.110143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:05:06.538714+08:00","text":"中央出錢，還蓋在你地方的土地這裡，除非你告訴我說林口這個地方真的完全都不需要社會住宅。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:05:06.838714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:05:20.838714+08:00","text":"所以是不是就像剛剛牛委員所提到的，你的意旨是希望再去溝通，既然是這樣子的話，這種比較情緒性的文字就不要啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:05:21.138714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:05:27.710143+08:00","text":"說「蠻橫」評估，我也不知道，不然就改「溫柔」評估，有這樣的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:05:28.010143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:05:29.010143+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:05:29.310143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:05:51.310143+08:00","text":"這我就不知道為何要用這個字眼，評估就評估，最主要是你評估出來以後跟地方如何去進行溝通，我也不認為你評估出來說：「好」，但新北市政府跟你說：「不行」，新北林口以後都不需要社會住宅。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-03-18T12:05:51.610143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:05:54.753000+08:00","text":"要嚇死人，應該也不至於吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:05:55.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:06:04.481571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝莊瑞雄委員的提醒，召委這樣子提這個意見，牛煦庭委員聽一下，不好意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:06:04.781571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:06:12.210143+08:00","text":"蠻橫的確這個字可能比較重了一點，我們用「逕行」兩個字好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:06:12.510143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:06:31.081571+08:00","text":"對於影視園區中部分遭廠商棄標之土地「逕行」評估變更為社會住宅，其實逕行這兩個字也是蠻重的一個字，但在文字上面可能文雅一點，我們是不是用這樣子？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:06:31.381571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:06:33.095857+08:00","text":"署長，你同意嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:06:33.395857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:06:46.253000+08:00","text":"好，OK，大家同意的話，我們就將蠻橫這兩個字拿掉，當然最重要的是兩個月之內要跟地方政府進行溝通，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:06:46.553000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:06:50.838714+08:00","text":"第五案，我們文字用「逕行」大家同意嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:06:51.138714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:06:54.567286+08:00","text":"好，我們臨時提案第五案通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:06:54.867286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:06:58.581571+08:00","text":"第六案、第七案都已經同意了嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:06:58.881571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:07:12.595857+08:00","text":"好的，非常謝謝大家，我們的臨時提案現在都處理完畢了，我們先休息3分鐘，然後待會再進行我們的質詢，謝謝大家，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:07:12.895857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:07:14.038714+08:00","text":"休息（11時59分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:07:14.338714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:07:16.053000+08:00","text":"繼續開會（12時4分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:07:16.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:07:18.067286+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:07:18.367286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:07:21.795857+08:00","text":"中午不休息，繼續我們的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-18T12:07:22.095857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-18T12:07:25.524429+08:00","text":"現在請莊瑞雄委員質詢，謝謝。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}