{"error":false,"id":["150055"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150055,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150055","日期":"2024-03-19","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第5次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第5次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-19T10:16:31+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-19T10:32:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/59f92d7d7345497f2b1bcdeac60cdeeff400872fcf4c8a93f8ba9b0039caa7a62d160d8729ee17f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:16:31 - 10:32:26","會議時間":"2024-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月19日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時16分）謝謝主席。請行政院陳院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：葛委員早，恭喜你當選立委。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。","院長好，近來AI（artificial intelligence，中文稱做「人工智慧」）成為學術界、科技界、金融界、藝術界等各個領域非常熱門的關鍵字。在去年，生成式AI的關鍵字甚至打敗了BLACKPINK，所以可說是全球熱燒啦。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是院長如果拿起手機上網搜尋，可能會看見許多專家對臺灣AI的前景可以說是憂心忡忡地提出各種呼籲，希望我們要先進，不要先禁，就是這個「進」不要變成「禁止」的「禁」，要進步，不要牛步。","我想這是大家有志一同的共識，政府如果再不提出國家級的AI戰略，積極落實前瞻視野的AI治理政策，未來我們難保不會從科技大戶陷入科技貧戶的窘境，在AI科技的發展上，很可能還會從過去我們是領先的，到變成與鄰近國家相比，產生數位落差，甚至接下來要變「智慧落差」。","談到AI的基礎環境，我想我們今天就從法規、人才、科技資料等等切入。這幾天有一個大新聞，我想諸位都有看到，就是歐洲議會通過了所謂的人工智慧法案，在歐盟開了全球先河，制定監管AI的人工智慧法案（AI Act），在3月13號高票獲得歐洲議會表決通過，外界將這樣的一個事件定義為一場人機大戰的開端，象徵著AI大西部時代的開始。","請教院長，我們臺灣對於AI政策框架的想法到底是什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：我國基本上在AI的這個政策上跟美國比較像，就是以「先採指引再立法」這樣的方式來進行，最主要的原因也是在，像剛才委員講得很好，EU現在有AI Act，但是其他的國家也都還在看說怎麼樣才是一個最好的立法方向，所以我們現在是國科會在負責這一個部分，也是採先指引後立法的方式。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝院長，我先引用一下國科會吳政忠主委曾經說過的話，他說生成式AI是兩面刃，除了攸關產業的發展，倫理法律的規範也要重新檢視，並且提到我們雖然採用了先指引後法律，但不代表法律現在沒有在動作。所以我現在就真的要來請教一下院長，我們的AI草案已經有動作了嗎？本席現在出示的這些都是國際上已經相繼訂定出的行政命令，甚至已經有立法了，我們AI法制的規劃到底是什麼？我們的戰略到底是什麼？我們是要野蠻生長，再立法因應，還是先訂出框架，讓產業有所依循，漸進式的成長？我們看到有媒體指出，政府要力拚520前提出AI草案，但是我們又看到吳政忠主委近日表示，人工智慧基本法預計在年底前提出，想請教一下人工智慧基本法的草案目前到底遇到什麼困難？我們每天睡覺的時候，AI都在變聰明，為什麼行政院版的人工智慧基本法提出日程一變再變、一延再延？"],["吳主任委員政忠：葛委員是這方面的專家，你剛剛提出來的憂慮事實上我們也知道，而且蠻重要。我想從去年開始生成式人工智慧，不是只有人工智慧，這個應該是一個大趨勢。人工智慧基本法草案事實上我們的團隊每天都在精進當中，3月13號的歐盟議會通過的，事實上我們有密切在注意。"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，我們剛剛都提過了，我們剛剛講過3月13號，謝謝您都有聽到。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們想知道到底是520，還是年底以前，可不可以給我們一個答案？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是年底以前，事實上我們現在草案有，但是也要徵詢社會各界的一些意見，的確……"],["葛委員如鈞：具體的作法是什麼？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我剛剛講是一個兩面刃，就是創新跟規範，歐盟走的比較是規範這一邊，美國、日本跟英國比較是另外一邊。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，我想這個我們要跨部會來一起合作。"],["吳主任委員政忠：好，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：因為如果我們依循的方向錯了，我們的產業在對接國際產業的時候，可能就會出現問題。"],["吳主任委員政忠：完全正確。"],["葛委員如鈞：如同您所說的，歐盟立法架構採風險分級，美國可能相對的是進行所謂的發展，我們採取的方向希望政府可以趕快訂出來。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們剛剛講說都指出來了，但是到底我們要選哪一邊，我們目前選邊了嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：應該是比較偏向美國、日本跟英國這一邊。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是美國、日本、英國已經有非常大的企業了，我們選那一邊，我們有辦法跟他競爭嗎？我想這個未來我們要來交流一下。"],["吳主任委員政忠：可以。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想除了法制面的問題以外，我們也要培育相關的人才，來促進科技的研發，也必須要有足夠的經費支持。在這邊這個難得的機會，我想要來請教一下院長，我們臺灣近年來平均每年投入AI的相關經費大概是多少？"],["陳院長建仁：相關的經費我要盤點一下。"],["吳主任委員政忠：人工智慧牽涉蠻廣的，它是一個backing force，事實上它在各個計畫裡面都有。"],["葛委員如鈞：各國現在都有一個大戰略、大框架，我待會都會提出數字喔！所以我們臺灣的數字到底是多少？"],["吳主任委員政忠：我如果沒有記錯的話，應該每年大約有120幾億了。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，很好，事實上我們看到的數字，在臺灣AI行動計畫2.0裡面完全沒有預算規模，我們過去非常佩服執政黨在推動相關的規劃上面，有200億的、有8,800億的，但是我們在這麼重要的AI法案上面，2.0的版本裡面，完全沒有預算規模的數字。我們去問了甚至也不好問到，事實上，我手上這一本臺灣AI行動計畫2.0不只是有相關預算不清楚的問題，但是我們甚至連框架都還不完整、不明確，我們AI整體的推動策略是透過國家AI推動小組統籌，包括國家AI政策的規劃，協調各部會的AI計畫跟經費配置與管考，也就是這個投影片的架構，國家AI推動小組是要負責AI政策各計畫的管考，現在的召集人確實就是在這裡的科技政委兼國科會主委吳政忠先生，但是我們向國科會詢問，我們現在這個架構很清楚嘛！對吧？有畫出來了嘛！但是到底你從上往下下來，一年的AI預算有多少，國科會給我的答復卻是目前沒有資料，要跟各部會索取並彙整，沒辦法馬上回復……"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個應該是不正確的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們進一步詢問五個任務分組當中每個部會業務推動的進度，國科會也表示沒有辦法一一掌握，我們其實是很擔心啦！是不是又要像數位部的大樓、像數位身分證一樣，錢先花了再來改來改去，根本沒有一貫的計畫，這個是不是可以分享一下？"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦！"],["吳主任委員政忠：跟委員報告，應該是不會像你剛剛講的完全沒有掌控，事實上AI行動計畫是在國科會，之前是科技會報辦公室，現在是國科會的科技辦公室，那個是以行政院的高度來看看各部會執行的狀態，我不知道誰回應你說不知道，那個應該是不正確的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想他們可能正在滾動修正。我想請問院長，謝謝院長想要發言，我們就馬上要來請教你，我們國家AI推動小組現在這樣的架構，真的可以擘劃我們國家級的AI戰略嗎？一個由國科會主委執掌的國家AI推動小組，我們剛剛也提到這是跨部會的議題，真的有辦法對於其他任務的執行部會發揮追蹤管考的功能嗎？院長，是不是應該要重新檢討國家AI推動小組的組織架構？以及這個2.0裡面的內容到底夠不夠清楚，我們待會會有一個預算數字，很抱歉，我們是從1.0的版本裡面撈出來的。"],["陳院長建仁：好。委員，我想你可能對我們行政院的結構不太清楚，在行政院院長、副院長以及秘書長之下，其實我們還有政委，政委就是負責跨部會的協調，現在國科會的主委也是科技政委，所以科技政委就是做跨部會協調的工作。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝院長。其實這個部分我很清楚，但是我想要問的是，接下來520如果沒有國科會主委或者同時兼任政委，這個架構該怎麼辦呢？還是現在當場承諾我們非常優秀的國科會主委直接留任，我們政委也直接留任，繼續沿用這個架構啊！現在已經3月19號了，我們每天睡覺的時候，AI就變聰明？"],["陳院長建仁：不會啦，我想……"],["葛委員如鈞：不會，不會離開嘛，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：不是，我想是這樣子，國科會主委兼科技政委……"],["葛委員如鈞：是常態嗎？會是常態嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：以往就是這樣。"],["葛委員如鈞：會是常態？"],["吳主任委員政忠：報告委員，那是我們組織法通過的，國科會的主委由行政院的科技政委來兼任。"],["陳院長建仁：對，是這樣。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我們就希望這樣子領頭來進行，但是這還不是最完整的。我們來看一下，行政院下其實還有一個叫做智慧國家推動小組，這個小組跟剛剛的國家AI推動小組到底有什麼關聯啊？是智慧國家就沒有AI，還是AI推動小組就沒有智慧呢？這兩個小組都在行政院之下，他們之間的互動又是什麼，是不是可以跟我們說明一下？讓我們整個學界、產業，包含我們這些立法監督都能夠有所瞭解，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員政忠：跟委員報告，智慧國家方案的前身就是DIGI+，委員應該很清楚，事實上智慧國家它是一個行政院最大的框架，當然裡面會有AI的一些計畫。那麼跟委員報告，AI 2.0推出來的時候，ChatGPT還沒有出來，所以剛剛委員垂詢的，事實上我們現在已經有把它做一些……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們應該要期待3.0的版本，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["陳院長建仁：對，應該有新的……"],["葛委員如鈞：OK，我們希望可以一起來努力。我想真的是希望可以避免我們的AI政策疊床架屋、大小不一，我們待會會看回放，其實就有非常多的名詞，組織架構改來改去，我相信都是為了好，滾動式修正也不錯，但是應該要越來越清楚，而不是越來越模糊。二來，行政院的高度一定要做出來，可以對跨部會的業務更有效的溝通跟整合，AI真的太快了，我們絕對不能讓我們人類的行動多頭馬車。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的，給我……"],["葛委員如鈞：給你一句話。"],["吳主任委員政忠：那個AI 2.0跟目前的晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案完全是會接在一起。"],["葛委員如鈞：軟硬整合、軟硬兼施，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。我想接下來目前正在進行的AI行動計畫2.0，我們覺得內容真的是不夠完整，所以其實很多內容，我們都只能回去看1.0。我們看到AI發展4年的總預算經費360億，平均1年是90億，如果今年假設是120億，我們比較一下，其實真的花了不少錢，「AI領航推動」這個標題花了117億，到底內容是什麼？是領航什麼、推動什麼？當然我們接下來希望在3.0看得更清楚。但是我們來比較一下，美國2022年用在AI的研究經費是1,000億臺幣；德國2023年要提升到10億歐元，相當於330億臺幣；南韓跟我們比較近，9,090億韓元，相當於218億元的預算，讓AI在南韓成為日常。我想請教一下院長，您認為要全面升級發展AI，我們到底有沒有一個相關投入計畫的目標？我們能不能提升預算，讓更高的人才、更厲害的發展有足夠充足的預算？"],["陳院長建仁：我想委員你剛才的質詢相當完整，我們要從法律、制度、人才還有方案的執行一起來做，相關AI的計畫，我相信我們新的版本一定會把預算的規模再擴大。"],["葛委員如鈞：希望可以投入進來，謝謝。不好意思，我打斷，因為時間有限。","剛剛院長也提到了AI的人才，我們有法規、我們有資源，其實人才也很重要。請問院長，行政院有沒有推估我國未來10年大概需要多少AI相關的人才？我直接在這裡回應，我們目前預估需要2.6萬的AI人才，有這樣的一個缺口。但是我們數位部每年培訓8,000人次AI應用人才，還不是高階的喔！我們高階的可能可以產出的是3,500名AI人才，500名資通領域的人才，每年1萬2,500名，這個其實還真的是杯水車薪。中國大陸就預估2030年的AI人才缺口即將達到400萬人，目前頂級人才到百萬美金的年薪、到百萬人民幣的年薪；英國牛津經濟學的公司曾經用數學模型推估，臺灣要面臨全球最嚴重的人才荒，人才赤字達到-1.5%。","去年我們有個臺灣人才白皮書直指臺灣每年有1.2萬人從學校畢業就赴日本工作，每年臺灣有3,000人到美國去做技術人才的簽證，但是我們去年一整年的就業金卡科技類，這個政策是很棒的，但是科技類只網羅到372個人。想請教一下院長，我們如何能夠留才、育才？"],["陳院長建仁：我們對留才、育才有各種不同的計畫，譬如教育部有一些人工智慧的研究學院，而且大學部裡面僑外生的延攬也是……"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，從教育著手。我最後要請教一下，我們在LLM（大型語言模型）的開發真的很落後，我們有臺德的計畫，這個很棒，他們花錢買了72片H100的GPU，但是美國的一家公司就斥資百億美元要買35萬片，這是5,000倍的量能，使得他們訓練的參數很少，七十億、一千多億，這部分是不是麻煩行政院可以精進一下，給我們更多資源讓超優質的軟硬開發人才一起前進？"],["吳主任委員政忠：謝謝委員的支持，事實上臺灣和美國當然不能比預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：這是美國企業。"],["吳主任委員政忠：是的。"],["葛委員如鈞：這還不是美國……"],["吳主任委員政忠：我想這個是很重要，我們臺德以後……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們一起來交流……"],["主席：謝謝葛委員如鈞的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來登記第2位麥委員玉珍之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員麥玉珍書面質詢："],["主席：再接下來，我們請登記第3位葉委員元之質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱志偉","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","林德福","吳春城","鍾佳濱","葛如鈞","麥玉珍","葉元之","張嘉郡","范雲","陳秀寳","林倩綺","鄭正鈐","張雅琳","王美惠","廖偉翔","陳俊宇","林憶君","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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Intelligence,中文稱作人工智慧,成為學術界、科技界、金融界、藝術界等各個領域非常熱門的關鍵字。在去年深層式AI的關鍵字甚至打敗了BlackPink。"},{"start":48.982,"end":68.768,"text":"所以可以說是一個全球熱騷啦但是呢院長如果拿起手機上網搜尋呢你可能會看見許多專家對台灣AI的前景可以說是憂心忡忡的提出各種呼籲希望說我們要先要先進不要先進這個進不要變成禁止的進要進步不要牛步啦"},{"start":69.995,"end":83.835,"text":"我想這是大家有志一同的共識政府如果再不提出國家級的AI戰略積極落實前瞻視野的AI治理政策我想未來我們難保不會從科技大戶陷入科技貧戶的窘境"},{"start":85.197,"end":107.068,"text":"在AI科技的發展上很可能還會從這個過去我們是領先的到變成與鄰近國家相比產生數位落差甚至接下來變智慧落差。談到AI的基礎環境我想我們今天就從法規、人才、科技資料等等切入。這幾天有一個大新聞希望我想這個諸位都有看到"},{"start":107.568,"end":107.608,"text":"請教院長﹗"},{"start":134.756,"end":158.045,"text":"我們台灣對於AI政策框架的想法到底是什麼?我國基本上在AI的這個政策上跟美國比較像我們先採指引再立法這樣的方式來進行那最主要的原因也是在這個像剛才委員講得很好EU現在有AI Act但是其他的國家也都還在"},{"start":159.145,"end":161.306,"text":"謝謝院長,我先引用一下就是國科會的吳政中主委曾經說過的"},{"start":174.153,"end":189.802,"text":"深層式AI是兩面刃除了攸關產業的發展倫理法律的規範也要重新檢視並且提到我們雖然採用了先指引後法律但是不代表法律沒有現在正在動作"},{"start":190.422,"end":216.616,"text":"那我現在就真的是要來請教一下院長我們的AI草案已經有動作了嗎?這些都是國際上已經有的相繼的一些行政命令甚至已經有立法了我們AI法制的規劃到底是什麼?我們的戰略到底是什麼?我們是要野蠻生長再立法因應還是先訂出框架讓產業有所依循去漸進式的成長?我們看到有媒體指出政府要力拼520前提出AI草案"},{"start":217.096,"end":235.135,"text":"但是呢我們又看到這個吳政中主委近日又表示人工智慧基本法預計在年底前提出。想請教一下我們人工智慧基本法的草案目前到底遇到什麼困難?我們每天睡覺AI都在變聰明。為什麼行政院版的人工智慧基本法提出日程一遍再遍一言再言?"},{"start":236.216,"end":251.87,"text":"國委員你是這方面的專家事實上你剛提出來的優勢事實上我們也知道而且蠻重要那未來我想從去年開始這個深層次人工智慧不是只有人工智慧這個應該是一個大趨勢"},{"start":253.211,"end":282.413,"text":"那那個人工智慧基本法草案事實上我們的團隊事實上每天都在精進當中那個3月13號的那個歐盟議會那個事實上他通過事實上我們有密…不好意思我們剛剛都提過了我們剛剛講過了3月13號謝謝您都聽到我們想知道到底是520還是年底以前可不可以給我們一個答案是年底以前事實上我們現在草案有但是也要徵詢各社會各界的一些意見"},{"start":283.594,"end":312.375,"text":"的確我剛剛講有是一個兩面刃就是創新跟這個規範那歐盟他走的比較是規範這一邊美國日本跟英國是比較另外一邊謝謝我想這個我們要跨部會來一起合作因為如果我們依循的方向錯了我們的產業在對接國際產業的時候可能就會出現問題如同您所說的歐盟立法架構踩風險分歧美國可能相對的是進行所謂的發展"},{"start":312.995,"end":320.64,"text":"我們採取的方向希望政府可以趕快定出來我們剛剛講說都指出來了但是到底我們要選哪一邊?我們目前選邊了嗎?"},{"start":323.317,"end":350.337,"text":"應該是比較偏向美國、日本跟英國這一邊但是美國、日本、英國已經有非常大的企業了我們選那一邊我們有辦法跟他競爭嗎?我想這個未來我們要來交流一下好不好?我想除了法制面的問題以外我們也要來培育相關的人才來促進科技的研發也必須要有足夠的經費支持在這邊這個難得的機會我想要來請教一下院長我們台灣近年來平均每年投入AI的相關經費大概是多少?"},{"start":354.597,"end":369.132,"text":"那個人工智慧牽涉盲管,它是一個back and forth,所以事實上它在各個計畫裡面都有。各國現在都有一個大戰略大框架,我待會都會提出數字喔,所以我們台灣的數字到底是多少?"},{"start":369.895,"end":389.336,"text":"我如果沒有記錯的話應該每年大約有一百二十幾億。好很好事實上我們看到的數字在這個臺灣AI行動計畫2.0裡面完全沒有預算規模我們過去非常佩服執政黨在推動相關的規劃上面有兩百億的有八千八百億的"},{"start":390.137,"end":415.829,"text":"但是我們在這麼重要的AI法案上面2.0的版本裡面完全沒有預算規模的數字我們去問了甚至也不好問到我手上這一本事實上臺灣AI行動計畫2.0不只是有相關的預算不清楚的問題但是我們甚至連框架都還不完整不明確我們AI整體的推動策略是透過國家AI推動小組統籌"},{"start":417.009,"end":436.583,"text":"包括國家的AI政策的規劃,協調各部會的AI計畫跟經費配置與管考,也就是我們這個投影片的架構。國家AI推動小組是要負責AI政策各計畫的管考。現在的召集人確實就是我們在這裡的這個科技政委兼國科會主委吳政中先生。但是呢"},{"start":437.003,"end":456.857,"text":"我們向國科會詢問國家一年我們現在這個架構很清楚嘛對吧有畫出來了嘛但是呢到底你上往上往下下來一年的AI預算有多少國科會給我的答覆卻是目前沒有資料要跟各部會索取並會診沒辦法馬上回覆我們進一步詢問五個任務分組當中"},{"start":457.597,"end":477.632,"text":"每個部會業務推動的進度,國會也表示沒有辦法一一掌握。這個我們其實是很擔心啦。是不是又要像數位部的大龍,像數位身份證一樣,錢先花了再來改來改去,根本沒有一貫的計畫。這個是不是可以分享一下。那個跟委員報告應該是不會像你剛剛講是完全沒有掌控的。"},{"start":478.152,"end":481.635,"text":"我想他們可能正在滾動修正我想請問院長謝謝院長想要發言我們就馬上要來請教你"},{"start":503.095,"end":526.396,"text":"我們國家的AI推動小組真的可以我們現在這樣的架構真的可以破壞我們國家級的AI戰略嗎?一個由國科會主委執掌的國家AI推動小組真的有辦法對於其他任務的我們剛剛也提到嘛這是跨部會的議題嘛執行部會能夠發揮追蹤管考的功能嗎?院長是不是應該要來重新檢討國家AI推動小組的主張?"},{"start":533.741,"end":554.776,"text":"委員,我想你可能對我們行政院的結構不太清楚。其實在行政院院長、副院長還秘書長之下,其實我們還有政委。那政委就是負責跨部會的協調。那現在國科會的主委也是科技政委,所以科技政委就是做跨部會的協調的工作。"},{"start":555.636,"end":582.664,"text":"謝謝院長其實這個部分我很清楚但是我想要問的是接下來520如果沒有國會主委或者同時兼任政委我們的這個架構怎麼辦呢還是我們現在當場承諾我們非常優秀的國會主委直接留任我們政委也直接留任繼續沿用這個架構啊我們現在已經3月19號了AI我們每天睡覺AI就變聰明不會啦我想不會離開嘛對不對不是我想是這樣子"},{"start":584.384,"end":609.067,"text":"國科會主委兼科技政委是常態嗎?會是常態嗎?以往就是這樣報言那個是我們組織法通過的這是國科的主委由行政院的科技政委來兼任的那我們就希望這樣子領頭來進行但是這還不是最完整的我們來看一下我們行政院下其實還有一個叫做智慧國家推動小組"},{"start":610.228,"end":631.45,"text":"到底這個小組跟我們剛剛的這個小組國家AI推動小組到底有什麼關聯啊是說智慧國家就沒有AI嗎還是說AI推動小組就沒有智慧勒這兩個小組都在行政院之下啊他們之間的互動又是什麼是不是可以跟我們說明一下讓我們整個學界產業那包含我們這些立法監督我們都能夠有所了解謝謝"},{"start":631.991,"end":632.091,"text":"是的﹖"},{"start":659.932,"end":680.527,"text":"好OK我們希望可以一起來努力那我想真的是希望可以避免我們的AI政策跌床駕屋大小不一剛剛我們待會會去看回放其實就有非常多的名詞組織架構改來改去我相信都是為了好滾動式修正也不錯但是應該要越來越清楚而不是越來越模糊"},{"start":681.167,"end":690.891,"text":"二來行政院的高度一定要做出來可以對跨部會的業務更有效的溝通跟整合AI真的太快了我們絕對不能讓我們人類的行動多頭馬車"},{"start":693.46,"end":696.764,"text":"我想接下來目前正在進行的AI行動計畫1.0真的是我們覺得內容不夠完整"},{"start":711.58,"end":724.213,"text":"所以我們其實很多內容我們都只能回去看1.0所以我們看到我們AI發展4年的總預算經費360億平均一年是90億如果今年假設是120億的話我們比較一下"},{"start":726.835,"end":743.523,"text":"其實真的花了不少錢啊AI領航推動這個標題花了117億到底內容是什麼是領航什麼推動什麼當然我們接下來希望在3.0看得更清楚但是我們來比較一下美國2022年用在AI的研究經費1000億台幣德國2023年要提升到10億歐元相當於330億台幣南韓我們比較近嘛9090億韓元相當於218億元的預算"},{"start":754.668,"end":771.191,"text":"讓AI在南韓成為日常我想請教一下院長您認為要全面升級發展AI我們到底有沒有一個相關的投入計畫的目標我們能不能提升預算讓我們更高的人才更厲害的發展有足夠充足的預算"},{"start":771.992,"end":786.281,"text":"我想委員你剛才的質詢相當完整我們要從法律、制度、人才還有這個方案的質詢一起來做那這個相關的AI的這個"},{"start":788.403,"end":810.163,"text":"我相信我們新的版本一定會把這個預算的規模再擴大。希望可以投入進來。謝謝。不好意思,時間有限。我想剛剛院長也提到了AI的人才。我們有法規,我們有資源,其實人才也很重要。請問一下院長,行政院有沒有推估我國未來在10年大概需要多少AI相關的人才。我直接在這裡回應"},{"start":811.164,"end":828.569,"text":"我們目前預估需要2.6萬人AI人才有這樣的一個缺口但是我們數位部每年培訓8000人是AI應用人才還不是高階的我們高階的可能可以產出的是3500名AI人才500名知通領域的人才每年12500名"},{"start":830.349,"end":851.767,"text":"這個其實還是真的是杯水車薪中國大陸就預估2030年的AI人才缺口即將達到400萬人目前頂級人才到百萬美金的年薪到百萬人民幣的年薪英國牛津經濟學的公司曾經用數學模型推估台灣要面臨全球最嚴重的人才荒人才次數達到負1.5%"},{"start":853.849,"end":880.899,"text":"在過去去年我們有一個臺灣人才白皮書就直指臺灣每年有1.2萬人的學校畢業就赴日本工作每年臺灣籍有3000人到美國去做技術人才的簽證但是去年我們一整年我們的就業金卡科技類這個政策是很棒的但是科技類只網羅到372個人想請教一下院長我們如何能夠留才育才"},{"start":882.096,"end":883.277,"text":"好 謝謝從教育左手我最後來請教一下"},{"start":899.548,"end":914.45,"text":"我們在LLM大型原模型的開發真的很落後我們有台德的計畫這個很棒但是他們花錢買了72片的H100的GPU但是美國的一家公司就次之百億美元要買35萬片"},{"start":916.212,"end":932.463,"text":"這是五千倍的量能齁所以使得他們訓練的參數很少啊七十億啊一千多億啊這個部分是不是麻煩行政院可以精進一下給我們更多資源讓超優質的軟硬開發人才可以一起前進那個謝謝委員的這個支持謝謝"},{"start":945.888,"end":949.633,"text":"謝謝各位委員如鈞的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:16:47.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:16:47.837000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:16:49.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:16:49.900000+08:00","text":"請行政院陳院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-19T10:16:49.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:16:50.220000+08:00","text":"再請陳院長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:16:51.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:16:51.601000+08:00","text":"葛委員早，恭喜你當選立委。謝謝。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:17:01.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:17:13.676000+08:00","text":"院長好，近來AI（artificial intelligence，中文稱做「人工智慧」）成為學術界、科技界、金融界、藝術界等各個領域非常熱門的關鍵字。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:17:14.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:17:21.562000+08:00","text":"在去年，生成式AI的關鍵字甚至打敗了BLACKPINK，所以可說是全球熱燒啦。是。","quality":0.703},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:17:22.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:17:39.588000+08:00","text":"但是院長如果拿起手機上網搜尋，可能會看見許多專家對臺灣AI的前景可以說是憂心忡忡地提出各種呼籲，希望我們要先進，不要先禁，就是這個「進」不要變成「禁止」的「禁」，要進步，不要牛步。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:17:40.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:18:07.483000+08:00","text":"我想這是大家有志一同的共識，政府如果再不提出國家級的AI戰略，積極落實前瞻視野的AI治理政策，未來我們難保不會從科技大戶陷入科技貧戶的窘境，在AI科技的發展上，很可能還會從過去我們是領先的，到變成與鄰近國家相比，產生數位落差，甚至接下來要變「智慧落差」。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:18:08.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:18:14.066000+08:00","text":"談到AI的基礎環境，我想我們今天就從法規、人才、科技資料等等切入。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:18:14.066000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:18:18.568000+08:00","text":"這幾天有一個大新聞，我想諸位都有看到，就是歐洲議會通過了所謂的人工智慧法案，在歐盟開了全球先河，制定監管AI的人工智慧法案（AI Act），在3月13號高票獲得歐洲議會表決通過，外界將這樣的一個事件定義為一場人機大戰的開端，象徵著AI大西部時代的開始。","quality":0.152},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:18:18.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:18:51.978000+08:00","text":"請教院長，我們臺灣對於AI政策框架的想法到底是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:18:51.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:19:09.025000+08:00","text":"我國基本上在AI的這個政策上跟美國比較像，就是以「先採指引再立法」這樣的方式來進行，最主要的原因也是在，像剛才委員講得很好，EU現在有AI Act，但是其他的國家也都還在看說怎麼樣才是一個最好的立法方向，所以我們現在是國科會在負責這一個部分，也是採先指引後立法的方式。","quality":0.602},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:19:10.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:19:40.782000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長，我先引用一下國科會吳政忠主委曾經說過的話，他說生成式AI是兩面刃，除了攸關產業的發展，倫理法律的規範也要重新檢視，並且提到我們雖然採用了先指引後法律，但不代表法律現在沒有在動作。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:19:41.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:19:45.904000+08:00","text":"所以我現在就真的要來請教一下院長，我們的AI草案已經有動作了嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:19:45.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:19:53.408000+08:00","text":"本席現在出示的這些都是國際上已經相繼訂定出的行政命令，甚至已經有立法了，我們AI法制的規劃到底是什麼？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:19:53.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:19:54.969000+08:00","text":"我們的戰略到底是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:19:54.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:20:02.693000+08:00","text":"我們是要野蠻生長，再立法因應，還是先訂出框架，讓產業有所依循，漸進式的成長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:20:02.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:20:18.407000+08:00","text":"我們看到有媒體指出，政府要力拚520前提出AI草案，但是我們又看到吳政忠主委近日表示，人工智慧基本法預計在年底前提出，想請教一下人工智慧基本法的草案目前到底遇到什麼困難？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:20:18.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:20:25.934000+08:00","text":"我們每天睡覺的時候，AI都在變聰明，為什麼行政院版的人工智慧基本法提出日程一變再變、一延再延？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:20:27.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:20:34.462000+08:00","text":"葛委員是這方面的專家，你剛剛提出來的憂慮事實上我們也知道，而且蠻重要。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:20:36.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:20:42.870000+08:00","text":"我想從去年開始生成式人工智慧，不是只有人工智慧，這個應該是一個大趨勢。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:20:44.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:20:57.801000+08:00","text":"人工智慧基本法草案事實上我們的團隊每天都在精進當中，3月13號的歐盟議會通過的，事實上我們有密切在注意。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:20:57.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:02.185000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我們剛剛都提過了，我們剛剛講過3月13號，謝謝您都有聽到。是的。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:02.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:06.848000+08:00","text":"我們想知道到底是520，還是年底以前，可不可以給我們一個答案？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:06.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:15.015000+08:00","text":"是年底以前，事實上我們現在草案有，但是也要徵詢社會各界的一些意見，的確……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:15.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:16.015000+08:00","text":"具體的作法是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:15.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:28.524000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講是一個兩面刃，就是創新跟規範，歐盟走的比較是規範這一邊，美國、日本跟英國比較是另外一邊。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:28.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:30.566000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我想這個我們要跨部會來一起合作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:30.566000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:31.566000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:31.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:37.350000+08:00","text":"因為如果我們依循的方向錯了，我們的產業在對接國際產業的時候，可能就會出現問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:37.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:38.350000+08:00","text":"完全正確。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:37.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:47.517000+08:00","text":"如同您所說的，歐盟立法架構採風險分級，美國可能相對的是進行所謂的發展，我們採取的方向希望政府可以趕快訂出來。可以。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:47.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:51.640000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛講說都指出來了，但是到底我們要選哪一邊，我們目前選邊了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:54.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:21:57.779000+08:00","text":"應該是比較偏向美國、日本跟英國這一邊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:21:57.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:22:02.283000+08:00","text":"但是美國、日本、英國已經有非常大的企業了，我們選那一邊，我們有辦法跟他競爭嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:22:02.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:22:03.764000+08:00","text":"我想這個未來我們要來交流一下。可以。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:22:04.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:22:12.590000+08:00","text":"我想除了法制面的問題以外，我們也要培育相關的人才，來促進科技的研發，也必須要有足夠的經費支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:22:13.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:22:21.317000+08:00","text":"在這邊這個難得的機會，我想要來請教一下院長，我們臺灣近年來平均每年投入AI的相關經費大概是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:22:21.317000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:22:25.818000+08:00","text":"相關的經費我要盤點一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:22:25.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:22:32.825000+08:00","text":"人工智慧牽涉蠻廣的，它是一個backing force，事實上它在各個計畫裡面都有。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:22:33.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:22:37.870000+08:00","text":"各國現在都有一個大戰略、大框架，我待會都會提出數字喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:22:38.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:22:40.112000+08:00","text":"所以我們臺灣的數字到底是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:22:40.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:22:45.540000+08:00","text":"我如果沒有記錯的話，應該每年大約有120幾億了。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:22:45.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:23:06.840000+08:00","text":"好，很好，事實上我們看到的數字，在臺灣AI行動計畫2.0裡面完全沒有預算規模，我們過去非常佩服執政黨在推動相關的規劃上面，有200億的、有8,800億的，但是我們在這麼重要的AI法案上面，2.0的版本裡面，完全沒有預算規模的數字。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:23:07.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:23:53.227000+08:00","text":"我們去問了甚至也不好問到，事實上，我手上這一本臺灣AI行動計畫2.0不只是有相關預算不清楚的問題，但是我們甚至連框架都還不完整、不明確，我們AI整體的推動策略是透過國家AI推動小組統籌，包括國家AI政策的規劃，協調各部會的AI計畫跟經費配置與管考，也就是這個投影片的架構，國家AI推動小組是要負責AI政策各計畫的管考，現在的召集人確實就是在這裡的科技政委兼國科會主委吳政忠先生，但是我們向國科會詢問，我們現在這個架構很清楚嘛！對吧？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:23:53.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:23:54.027000+08:00","text":"有畫出來了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:23:54.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:24:05.335000+08:00","text":"但是到底你從上往下下來，一年的AI預算有多少，國科會給我的答復卻是目前沒有資料，要跟各部會索取並彙整，沒辦法馬上回復……","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:24:05.335000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:24:06.335000+08:00","text":"那個應該是不正確的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:24:06.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:24:14.942000+08:00","text":"我們進一步詢問五個任務分組當中每個部會業務推動的進度，國科會也表示沒有辦法一一掌握，我們其實是很擔心啦！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:24:15.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:24:24.088000+08:00","text":"是不是又要像數位部的大樓、像數位身分證一樣，錢先花了再來改來改去，根本沒有一貫的計畫，這個是不是可以分享一下？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:24:24.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:24:26.620000+08:00","text":"不會啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:24:26.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:24:29.152000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，應該是不會像你剛剛講的完全沒有掌控，事實上AI行動計畫是在國科會，之前是科技會報辦公室，現在是國科會的科技辦公室，那個是以行政院的高度來看看各部會執行的狀態，我不知道誰回應你說不知道，那個應該是不正確的。","quality":0.22},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:24:29.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:24:30.073000+08:00","text":"我想他們可能正在滾動修正。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:24:30.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:25:00.621000+08:00","text":"我想請問院長，謝謝院長想要發言，我們就馬上要來請教你，我們國家AI推動小組現在這樣的架構，真的可以擘劃我們國家級的AI戰略嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:25:00.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:25:13.352000+08:00","text":"一個由國科會主委執掌的國家AI推動小組，我們剛剛也提到這是跨部會的議題，真的有辦法對於其他任務的執行部會發揮追蹤管考的功能嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:25:13.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:25:17.236000+08:00","text":"院長，是不是應該要重新檢討國家AI推動小組的組織架構？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:25:17.236000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:25:24.741000+08:00","text":"以及這個2.0裡面的內容到底夠不夠清楚，我們待會會有一個預算數字，很抱歉，我們是從1.0的版本裡面撈出來的。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:25:24.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:25:45.756000+08:00","text":"委員，我想你可能對我們行政院的結構不太清楚，在行政院院長、副院長以及秘書長之下，其實我們還有政委，政委就是負責跨部會的協調，現在國科會的主委也是科技政委，所以科技政委就是做跨部會協調的工作。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:25:46.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:25:47.036000+08:00","text":"謝謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:25:47.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:25:55.779000+08:00","text":"其實這個部分我很清楚，但是我想要問的是，接下來520如果沒有國科會主委或者同時兼任政委，這個架構該怎麼辦呢？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:25:56.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:03.541000+08:00","text":"還是現在當場承諾我們非常優秀的國科會主委直接留任，我們政委也直接留任，繼續沿用這個架構啊！","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:04.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:08.522000+08:00","text":"現在已經3月19號了，我們每天睡覺的時候，AI就變聰明？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:09.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:10.303000+08:00","text":"不會啦，我想……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:10.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:12.183000+08:00","text":"不會，不會離開嘛，對不對？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:12.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:18.427000+08:00","text":"不是，我想是這樣子，國科會主委兼科技政委……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:18.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:19.208000+08:00","text":"是常態嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:19.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:19.568000+08:00","text":"會是常態嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:19.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:22.130000+08:00","text":"以往就是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:22.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:23.130000+08:00","text":"會是常態？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:22.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:28.316000+08:00","text":"報告委員，那是我們組織法通過的，國科會的主委由行政院的科技政委來兼任。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:28.316000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:29.316000+08:00","text":"對，是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:29.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:33.761000+08:00","text":"好，我們就希望這樣子領頭來進行，但是這還不是最完整的。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:33.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:46.574000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，行政院下其實還有一個叫做智慧國家推動小組，這個小組跟剛剛的國家AI推動小組到底有什麼關聯啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:47.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:51.359000+08:00","text":"是智慧國家就沒有AI，還是AI推動小組就沒有智慧呢？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:52.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:26:57.005000+08:00","text":"這兩個小組都在行政院之下，他們之間的互動又是什麼，是不是可以跟我們說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:26:57.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:27:02.450000+08:00","text":"讓我們整個學界、產業，包含我們這些立法監督都能夠有所瞭解，謝謝。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:27:02.450000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:27:09.635500+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，智慧國家方案的前身就是DIGI+，委員應該很清楚，事實上智慧國家它是一個行政院最大的框架，當然裡面會有AI的一些計畫。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:27:09.635500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:27:16.821000+08:00","text":"那麼跟委員報告，AI 2.0推出來的時候，ChatGPT還沒有出來，所以剛剛委員垂詢的，事實上我們現在已經有把它做一些……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:27:16.821000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:27:24.006500+08:00","text":"所以我們應該要期待3.0的版本，是嗎？是的。","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:27:24.006500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:27:31.192000+08:00","text":"對，應該有新的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:27:31.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:27:33.194000+08:00","text":"OK，我們希望可以一起來努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:27:34.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:27:51.507000+08:00","text":"我想真的是希望可以避免我們的AI政策疊床架屋、大小不一，我們待會會看回放，其實就有非常多的名詞，組織架構改來改去，我相信都是為了好，滾動式修正也不錯，但是應該要越來越清楚，而不是越來越模糊。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:27:52.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:28:01.891000+08:00","text":"二來，行政院的高度一定要做出來，可以對跨部會的業務更有效的溝通跟整合，AI真的太快了，我們絕對不能讓我們人類的行動多頭馬車。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:28:01.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:28:02.891000+08:00","text":"是的，給我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:28:02.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:28:03.891000+08:00","text":"給你一句話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:28:03.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:28:04.891000+08:00","text":"那個AI 2.0跟目前的晶片驅動臺灣產業創新方案完全是會接在一起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:28:04.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:28:05.891000+08:00","text":"軟硬整合、軟硬兼施，是嗎？是的。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:28:04.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:28:26.104000+08:00","text":"我想接下來目前正在進行的AI行動計畫2.0，我們覺得內容真的是不夠完整，所以其實很多內容，我們都只能回去看1.0。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:28:26.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:28:44.058000+08:00","text":"我們看到AI發展4年的總預算經費360億，平均1年是90億，如果今年假設是120億，我們比較一下，其實真的花了不少錢，「AI領航推動」這個標題花了117億，到底內容是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:28:44.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:28:45.799000+08:00","text":"是領航什麼、推動什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:28:45.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:28:48.160000+08:00","text":"當然我們接下來希望在3.0看得更清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:28:48.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:29:07.270000+08:00","text":"但是我們來比較一下，美國2022年用在AI的研究經費是1,000億臺幣；德國2023年要提升到10億歐元，相當於330億臺幣；南韓跟我們比較近，9,090億韓元，相當於218億元的預算，讓AI在南韓成為日常。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:29:07.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:29:15.983000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下院長，您認為要全面升級發展AI，我們到底有沒有一個相關投入計畫的目標？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:29:15.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:29:22.171000+08:00","text":"我們能不能提升預算，讓更高的人才、更厲害的發展有足夠充足的預算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:29:22.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:29:43.607000+08:00","text":"我想委員你剛才的質詢相當完整，我們要從法律、制度、人才還有方案的執行一起來做，相關AI的計畫，我相信我們新的版本一定會把預算的規模再擴大。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:29:43.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:29:44.648000+08:00","text":"希望可以投入進來，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:29:44.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:29:46.550000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我打斷，因為時間有限。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:29:48.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:29:54.077000+08:00","text":"剛剛院長也提到了AI的人才，我們有法規、我們有資源，其實人才也很重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:29:54.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:30:00.222000+08:00","text":"請問院長，行政院有沒有推估我國未來10年大概需要多少AI相關的人才？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:30:00.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:30:06.085000+08:00","text":"我直接在這裡回應，我們目前預估需要2.6萬的AI人才，有這樣的一個缺口。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:30:06.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:30:12.607000+08:00","text":"但是我們數位部每年培訓8,000人次AI應用人才，還不是高階的喔！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:30:13.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:30:22.931000+08:00","text":"我們高階的可能可以產出的是3,500名AI人才，500名資通領域的人才，每年1萬2,500名，這個其實還真的是杯水車薪。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:30:23.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:30:42.767000+08:00","text":"中國大陸就預估2030年的AI人才缺口即將達到400萬人，目前頂級人才到百萬美金的年薪、到百萬人民幣的年薪；英國牛津經濟學的公司曾經用數學模型推估，臺灣要面臨全球最嚴重的人才荒，人才赤字達到-1.5%。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:30:45.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:31:07.957000+08:00","text":"去年我們有個臺灣人才白皮書直指臺灣每年有1.2萬人從學校畢業就赴日本工作，每年臺灣有3,000人到美國去做技術人才的簽證，但是我們去年一整年的就業金卡科技類，這個政策是很棒的，但是科技類只網羅到372個人。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:31:08.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:31:11.879000+08:00","text":"想請教一下院長，我們如何能夠留才、育才？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳院長建仁","start":"2024-03-19T10:31:11.879000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:31:13.216000+08:00","text":"我們對留才、育才有各種不同的計畫，譬如教育部有一些人工智慧的研究學院，而且大學部裡面僑外生的延攬也是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:31:13.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:31:13.797000+08:00","text":"謝謝，從教育著手。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:31:13.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:32:01.101000+08:00","text":"我最後要請教一下，我們在LLM（大型語言模型）的開發真的很落後，我們有臺德的計畫，這個很棒，他們花錢買了72片H100的GPU，但是美國的一家公司就斥資百億美元要買35萬片，這是5,000倍的量能，使得他們訓練的參數很少，七十億、一千多億，這部分是不是麻煩行政院可以精進一下，給我們更多資源讓超優質的軟硬開發人才一起前進？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:32:01.101000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:32:02.101000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的支持，事實上臺灣和美國當然不能比預算……","quality":0.227},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:32:02.101000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:32:03.101000+08:00","text":"這是美國企業。是的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:32:03.101000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:32:04.101000+08:00","text":"這還不是美國……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳主任委員政忠","start":"2024-03-19T10:32:04.101000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:32:05.101000+08:00","text":"我想這個是很重要，我們臺德以後……","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-03-19T10:32:05.101000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:32:06.101000+08:00","text":"我們一起來交流……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-19T10:32:03.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-19T10:32:19.872000+08:00","text":"謝謝葛委員如鈞的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-19T10:32:20.372000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:32:30.943429+08:00","text":"接下來登記第2位麥委員玉珍之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。","quality":0.081},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-19T10:32:31.243429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-19T10:32:36.386286+08:00","text":"再接下來，我們請登記第3位葉委員元之質詢。","quality":0.278}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}