{"error":false,"id":["150071"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150071,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150071","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-22-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T09:12:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T09:24:45+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:19","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f1921286f6dc04247b282577149e9af75248f8ba9b0039caa7a61d95d62370d3d00e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:12:26 - 09:24:45","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。（3月18日、20日及21日三天一次會））","gazette":{"lineno":26,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時12分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請廖院長。"],["主席：院長。"],["廖院長俊智：洪委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，先跟你就教關於我們經濟發展的部分，本席看到中研院在去年底的時候預估今年的經濟發展，用了一句話叫做「雪融春暖偶寒風」，報告裡面也提到：2024年的物價漲勢預計比今年和緩。因為你們可能是用消費者物價指數或生產者物價指數來做累積等等，請教在去年的時候，有沒有算過今年有可能馬上面臨到4月電價大幅調漲的一個因素？"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝委員的提問，這方面經濟的問題，我們請經濟所所長回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，簡單說明，好不好？"],["許代所長育進：報告孟委員，我記得……"],["洪委員孟楷：洪委員。"],["許代所長育進：洪委員，不好意思，太緊張。我記得我們那時候還沒有考慮到電價的上漲。"],["洪委員孟楷：你那時候說今年物價漲勢有可能比較和緩，但是看起來，因為你沒有考慮到電價，那現在有可能4月電價調漲會是幅度最高的一次，包括330度以下民生用電要調漲、工業用電可能調漲15%至20%。請教今年預計臺灣的經濟會怎麼走？物價會不會漲幅更大？"],["許代所長育進：報告委員，因為我們還沒有做詳細的分析，我不敢在這邊下結論。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們沒有滾動式檢討嗎？現在大家吵得沸沸揚揚，還是中研院不用電，是不是？"],["許代所長育進：報告委員，我們7月會有一個年中的預測發表會，我們在那個時候再做更新。"],["洪委員孟楷：年中會做更新？"],["許代所長育進：中間的「中」、7月底，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長來綜合判斷一下吧！中研院也是國內五大重要的經濟預測單位，包括中央銀行、中研院、中經院、台經院等。我現在只要請教，其他單位也都會預期今年的經濟成長或者經濟狀況，尤其消費者最關心的是物價通膨的部分，那認為過去這兩年物價漲的幅度是不是有感？你自己本身的經驗。"],["廖院長俊智：我個人的經驗不太準，因為我們看物價的波動要看統計數字才準，每一個人的個別判斷恐怕都有失精確。"],["洪委員孟楷：前兩年相對來講，我們的經濟表現是相對比較弱，今年看起來會不會物價有更成長的狀況？我們當初也都沒有把電價調漲給算進去。"],["廖院長俊智：經濟預測是非常專業的一個面向，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為專業才要問你們，但是你現在給我一個很不專業的答案耶！"],["廖院長俊智：抱歉，因為這不是我的專業，我們看經濟所可不可以幫忙一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，沒關係，這代表的是感覺中研院好像跟我們民生有一段脫鉤。","我再請教，其中有一個部分討論到電價的成長，電價成長就是能源的部分。"],["廖院長俊智：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：對於再生能源，不管是2050淨零碳排，不管是相對的再生能源應用，本席也很關心，其中你有提到淨零5支箭，其中2支箭是地熱能和海洋能，本席認為這對我們臺灣得天獨厚的地理環境來講，好像相對算是有所幫助的。為什麼？因為臺灣四面環海，而且可能有一些活火山等屬於地熱的部分，本席選區所在的北海岸原先有核一廠，它現在已經除役了，金山（第12選區）有核二廠，它正在除役，基隆有協和電廠，現在可能也要做轉型，請問有沒有針對這幾個部分的地熱能或是海洋能做進一步的研究？"],["廖院長俊智：這個部分我們會從那個角度來繼續研究，這是非常好的問題，我們確實可以因地制宜，在那邊看看有沒有辦法利用既有的設施或是搭配既有的配電來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，院長講到重點了！一個電廠的設定包括後面更重要的電網配置，因為核一廠、核二廠及協和電廠過去在那邊發電三、四十年，本來就已經架設好完整的配電電網，如果能在那附近、不要太遠的地方能夠有新的再生能源發電的使用，那就可以利用原有的電網持續供應整個臺灣的用電。相對來講，第一，可能建置成本相對會比較低，第二，溝通成本也會比較低，第三是可以轉型為再生能源，尤其北海岸有豐富的不管是海洋能或地熱能等部分。"],["廖院長俊智：委員這個問題非常好，我們現在在大屯山附近探測地熱能源一部分就是著眼於這個考量，將來假如探測成功，就可以利用附近核電廠既有的設施。"],["洪委員孟楷：除了大屯山，就是所謂的陽明山國家風景區，另外就是北海岸。北海岸部分，我們不要只講過去提到的離岸風電，它必須要有風電機組，其實它還包括海洋能、地熱能，所以本席今天會提出一個臨時提案，針對北海岸地區是不是中研院再和台電去做一個研究，看是不是能夠鎖定這幾個比較有潛力的未來發展的方向，重點加強去探究到底這些天然資源未來能不能轉化成我們想像的再生能源，可以嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：「謝謝」的意思是可以嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：是的，這是非常好的方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：等一下我們討論臨時提案的時候，就請往這個方向邁進，好不好？"],["廖院長俊智：這是非常好的建議。好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來想跟院長請教一下，我們最近也看到有所謂的SRF──環境部、經濟部在推的固體再生燃料，也就是將廢棄物燃料化，針對這個部分，其實環境部有委託中研院做一個細懸浮微粒化學成分監測與分析計畫，抽查某使用SRF的工廠煙道採樣，發覺歷年濃度最高的塑化劑，可能會對人體造成危害。這個您應該有看到。"],["廖院長俊智：我有看到新聞。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以SRF即便是所謂的固體再生燃料，是廢棄物燃料化，其實簡單講就是燒垃圾啦！燒垃圾也許可以降低一些燃料成本，但一定還是會造成空污嘛！你覺得這樣還有可能被認定為綠電嗎？"],["廖院長俊智：這個應該是可以處理的問題。委員提的問題非常重要，但是這個問題不見得不能處理，我們要仔細瞭解之後……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我們會不會投入太多成本，反而造成發電效益和投入成本不相符？"],["廖院長俊智：這個要仔細研究才知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為在你們過去的計畫裡面就已經探測出歷年濃度最高的塑化劑，所以有可能是在處理過程中沒有辦法完整的分類，而造成燃燒過程中還是會有塑化劑在裡面，是不是這樣？"],["廖院長俊智：因為有些塑膠可能塑化劑用的比例比較高，這個可以用其他方法來處理，這可能需要再仔細研究，我們請環境變遷研究中心主任陳于高來補充說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，請簡單說明。"],["陳主任于高：跟委員報告，SRF有分好幾類，有一類的塑膠含量比較高，以前我們沒有對燃燒出來的這些塑化劑做處理，現在知道它比較高，其實是可以用新的技術加上去處理，只是成本還要再計算。"],["洪委員孟楷：成本是不是就相對高了嘛！"],["陳主任于高：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實這是很簡單的概念，就是前面的分類分得越細，燒的東西可能就越純粹，但是前面分類那個細的程度會不會反而造成很高的成本，而不符合成本效益？"],["陳主任于高：這個有可能。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外，SRF的分類標準誰來訂？是環境部訂、中研院訂，還是誰來訂？要分類到什麼程度再來燒才可以算是綠電？國內有哪個單位是做這樣的事情？還是只要使用SRF，都可以算是綠電？因為現在看起來好像經濟部就想這樣幹啊！"],["陳主任于高：這是用生質的概念來做這件事情，因為SRF裡面生質的含量很高，而生質本身不算碳排，所以它有綠電的性質，但其實它還有其他的雜質，所以SRF不是百分之百算綠電。"],["洪委員孟楷：是！所以不是百分之百算綠電嘛！說實在的，如果它的分類沒有到達你剛剛所講的真的很細微的話，它中間太多雜質，根本沒有辦法算綠電嘛！"],["陳主任于高：雜質的成分相對沒有那麼高，因為我們的生活廢料裡面，生質的比例還算是滿高的，所以才會使用這個材料。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，感謝。","這就是本席要提出來的，為什麼？因為現在看起來北、中、南開始有SRF的業者在辦地方說明會，本席的選區也有，但是我們一直強調的是，認定的部分是不是不能這樣？明明是垃圾或者明明燒出來之後有太多的塑化劑等等，但是怎麼會把它變成是綠電呢？","院長，最後一個問題是，我看到你們最近也有在做AI方面的討論，本席昨天也率先倡議了，AI（人工智慧）基本法應該趕快來制定和落實，為什麼？因為現在生成式AI的應用真的太普遍了，去年除了好萊塢的罷工潮，還有很多方方面面都有在做AI的討論，請教一下院長的態度或方向，你贊不贊成國內應該趕快制定AI（人工智慧）基本法？"],["廖院長俊智：我想朝這個方向是對的，但是要進行得多快，恐怕要學者專家一起來研議，因為這在全世界都還算相當新。"],["洪委員孟楷：相當新，但是歐盟已經通過了。"],["廖院長俊智：是，但要看我們是要跟隨歐盟，還是……"],["洪委員孟楷：這純粹是學術的探討，沒有對錯，以您自己的學術高度來講，您認為臺灣目前的走向比較適合走美、日這種相對開放式的，還是歐盟這種相對限縮式的？"],["廖院長俊智：我想每個國家的狀態都不太一樣，我們要擷取其中的精華，參照臺灣特有的狀況來定，很難講說一定是朝哪一個方向，可能我們要……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你覺得中華民國比較適合哪一個方向？應用在我們的方方面面，不管是公部門、私部門或是研究領域。"],["廖院長俊智：第一個，我們要以人為本，所以AI的發展要對臺灣的社會有正面的貢獻，我們才去做，所以我們立法的宗旨可能要考量這個方面，每一個國家的狀況都不一樣。其次，我們要保護個人隱私及其他比如說智慧財產權，假如是公務機關使用的話，也有一些機密性的問題，像這些都要考量進去，每一個國家的狀態可能都會不一樣，所以要仔細考慮。"],["洪委員孟楷：感謝院長。我們沒有套好招，但是我們昨天記者會的名稱就叫「以人為本的人工智慧基本法的催生」，所以很高興我們在這個議題上面的方向有志一同，我們一起努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["廖院長俊智：謝謝。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：謝謝洪委員，院長請回座。","接下來我們請柯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":392,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-4","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","萬美玲","張雅琳","吳春城","陳培瑜","謝衣鳯","范雲","吳思瑤","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央研究院院長廖俊智列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.61596875,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":16.34909375,"end":34.08471875,"speaker_score":0.847},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":34.32096875,"end":35.89034375,"speaker_s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t":"請教今年預計台灣的經濟會怎麼走?物價會不會更漲幅更大?"},{"start":104.94,"end":131.79,"text":"報告委員,因為我們還沒有做詳細的分析,我不敢在這邊下案。我們有滾動式檢討嗎?還是現在大家吵沸沸揚,還是中研院不用電是不是?報告委員,就是我們7月會有一個年中的預測發表會,我們會在那個時候再做更新。年中會做更新?中間的中,7月底。對,我們來,院長。院長,來,綜合判斷一下吧。"},{"start":133.322,"end":159.801,"text":"我們中研院也是國內五大的這個重要的經濟預測單位嘛包括中央銀行、中研院、中經院、台經院等好那我現在要請教的是說其他的單位我們也都會預期嘛今年的經濟成長或是經濟的一個狀況那尤其消費者最關心的是物價通膨的部分那認為過去這兩年的物價漲的幅度有沒有有改你自己本身的經驗我"},{"start":163.188,"end":168.052,"text":"前兩年相對來講我們的經濟表現是相對比較弱的那今年看起來會不會有物價有更成長的狀況所以我們當初也都沒有把這個電價調漲給算進去"},{"start":184.076,"end":184.556,"text":"來,院長,我再請教"},{"start":205.814,"end":219.463,"text":"其中有一個部分就討論到電價的成長那電價的成長就是能源的部分我知道對於再生能源不管是2050淨零碳排不管是相對的這個再生能源應用本席也很關心其中你有提到這個淨零5支建對不對"},{"start":222.425,"end":242.312,"text":"兩支箭其中地熱能跟海洋能本席認為是相對來說好像對於我們台灣的得天獨厚的地理環境來講算是有所幫助的為什麼因為台灣市面環海嘛那而且可能有一些火火山啊這些的地熱的部分那本席所在地的北海岸"},{"start":243.132,"end":243.312,"text":"對,院長講到重點了"},{"start":273.123,"end":288.918,"text":"一個電廠的設定還有更重要是後面的電網的配置因為合一廠、合二廠以及協和電廠過去在那邊已經三四十年的發電也因此它本來就已經架設好完整的配電電網也因此如果說在那個"},{"start":289.799,"end":314.284,"text":"附近不要太遠的地方能夠有新的再生能源的發電的使用那就可以利用原有的電網來去持續的供應我們整個台灣的供電相對來講成本第一可能建制成本會相對比較低第二溝通成本也會比較低還有可以轉型成再生能源尤其是北海岸有豐富的不管是海洋能不管是地能、地熱能等等的部分"},{"start":316.688,"end":335.86,"text":"對,委員這個問題非常好。我們現在在大屯山附近探測的地熱能源就是一部分著眼這部分的考量。將來假如探測成功,我們可以利用這附近的既有的核電廠的設施。除了大屯山,它就是所謂的陽明山國家風景區,那另外還有就是所謂北海岸。"},{"start":336.34,"end":336.52,"text":"主席"},{"start":375.299,"end":395.255,"text":"我們最近也看到有所謂的SRF環境部經濟部在推動的固體再生燃料就是說將廢棄物燃料化那廢棄物燃料化呢我們看到說環境部其實有委託中研院說做懸浮微浮力"},{"start":396.716,"end":410.113,"text":"系懸浮微粒化學成分監測與分析計畫那抽查某使用的SRF燃料的這個採樣．發覺歷年濃度最高的塑化劑．可能會對人體造成危害"},{"start":411.055,"end":431.594,"text":"我想這個你應該有看到我看到新聞所以SRF它即便它是所謂的固體再生燃料是廢棄物燃料化可能又所謂的就我們以前講的這比較簡單講燒垃圾那你燒垃圾也許可以降低一些燃料的成本但是一定還是造成空污那你覺得有可能這樣子還被認定為綠電嗎"},{"start":435.078,"end":448.63,"text":"這個應該是可以處理的問題當然委員提的問題是非常重要但是這個問題不見得不能處理我們要仔細了解但是我們會不會投入太多的成本反而造成是發電的效益及成本的投入不相符"},{"start":452.353,"end":467.632,"text":"因為你們過去的一個計畫裡面就已經有探測出說歷年濃度最高的塑化劑所以有可能是在處理的過程當中它的分類沒有辦法完整的分類而造成是說在燃燒的過程之中還是會有這些塑化劑在裡面"},{"start":468.152,"end":493.488,"text":"這是因為有一些塑膠它可能塑化劑用的比較高那這個可以用其他方法來處理所以這個可能需要再仔細研究我們請環變主任陳玉高來補充說明來補充說明一下簡單說明因為SRF有分好幾類有一類它的塑膠的含量比較高那以前我們沒有對燃燒出來的這些塑化劑的做處理"},{"start":494.629,"end":522.611,"text":"現在知道他比較高用新的技術其實是可以加上去處理只是成本上還要再計算成本是不是就相對高了是其實很簡單的概念就是你前面的分類分得越細你可能你燒的東西是越純粹但是你前面分類的那個細的程度會不會反而造成很高的成本而不符合發電或是整個的成本效益這有可能對不對這有可能是那另外再來標準誰定"},{"start":525.103,"end":542.486,"text":"是我們環境部定還是中原運電還是誰來定定說這個SRF的分類分類到什麼程度我們再來燒它可以算是綠電目前我們國內有哪個單位是做這樣的事情還是只要是SRF都可以算是綠電因為我現在看起來好像經濟部他們就想這樣幹"},{"start":544.218,"end":570.638,"text":"是 這個是用升值的概念來做這件事情因為SRF裡面升值的含量很高升值本身呢 不算碳排所以它有綠電的性質那但是其他還有其他的雜質所以不是SRF百分之百算綠電是 所以不是百分之百算綠電嘛其實說實在 如果說它的分類沒有到達你剛剛所講的真的很細微的話其實它中間太多雜質根本沒有辦法算綠電嘛"},{"start":572.902,"end":589.838,"text":"雜誌的成分相對沒有那麼高因為我們的這些生活廢料裡面生殖的比例還算是蠻高的所以這個材料才來使用是 這個就是本席所提出來為什麼因為現在看起來北中南開始有SRF這業者去做地方說明會其中本席的選區也有"},{"start":590.939,"end":593.8,"text":"院長最後一個問題抱歉主席一分鐘我有看到說我們最近也有在做這個AI的這個"},{"start":614.213,"end":631.923,"text":"請教一下院長本期昨天我們也率先倡議了AI人工智慧基本法應該趕快來制定跟落實為什麼因為現在生成式AI的這個應用真的太普遍了看到去年有好萊塢的罷工潮看到很多方方面面都有在做AI的討論"},{"start":633.024,"end":652.691,"text":"請教院長您的態度或是方向你這麼贊成我們國內應該趕快來做AI人工智慧基本法的一個定律我想這個朝這個方向是對的那要進行多快恐怕要學著專家一起來研議因為這個在全世界都還算相當新的相當新但是歐盟已經通過了是那我看我們是要跟隨歐盟"},{"start":653.691,"end":681.767,"text":"您自己以這種學術高度來講這純粹是學術的探討沒有對錯但您自己的方向您認為是說臺灣目前走向比較適合走美日這種相對開放式的還是歐盟這種相對線索式的我想每一個國家的狀態都不太一樣我們要擷取其中的精華然後看說參照這個臺灣特有的狀況來定很難講說一定是朝哪一個方向可能我們要每一個但你覺得中華民國比較適合哪一個方向"},{"start":683.438,"end":703.667,"text":"應用在我們的不管是方方面面、公部門、私部門、研究領域第一個我們要以人為本所以這個AI的發展要對臺灣的社會有正面的貢獻那我們才去做所以我們立法的宗旨可能要考量這方面每個國家的狀況都不一樣"},{"start":704.907,"end":706.328,"text":"好,感謝院長,我們沒有套好招喔"},{"start":728.447,"end":730.849,"text":"以人為本的人工智慧基本法"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:12:26.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:12:44.199000+08:00","text":"主席，謝謝，麻煩請廖院長。院長。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:12:44.199000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:12:45.199000+08:00","text":"洪委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:12:44.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:10.376000+08:00","text":"院長，先跟你就教關於我們經濟發展的部分，本席看到中研院在去年底的時候預估今年的經濟發展，用了一句話叫做「雪融春暖偶寒風」，報告裡面也提到：2024年的物價漲勢預計比今年和緩。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:10.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:26.099000+08:00","text":"因為你們可能是用消費者物價指數或生產者物價指數來做累積等等，請教在去年的時候，有沒有算過今年有可能馬上面臨到4月電價大幅調漲的一個因素？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:27.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:29.419000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的提問，這方面經濟的問題，我們請經濟所所長回答。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:29.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:29.659000+08:00","text":"來，簡單說明，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許代所長育進","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:29.659000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:33.720200+08:00","text":"報告孟委員，我記得……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:33.720200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:37.781400+08:00","text":"洪委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許代所長育進","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:37.781400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:41.842600+08:00","text":"洪委員，不好意思，太緊張。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許代所長育進","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:41.842600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:45.903800+08:00","text":"我記得我們那時候還沒有考慮到電價的上漲。","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:45.903800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:49.965000+08:00","text":"你那時候說今年物價漲勢有可能比較和緩，但是看起來，因為你沒有考慮到電價，那現在有可能4月電價調漲會是幅度最高的一次，包括330度以下民生用電要調漲、工業用電可能調漲15%至20%。","quality":0.237},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:49.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:50.405000+08:00","text":"請教今年預計臺灣的經濟會怎麼走？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:13:50.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:13:50.586000+08:00","text":"物價會不會漲幅更大？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許代所長育進","start":"2024-03-20T09:14:10.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:14:14.341000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為我們還沒有做詳細的分析，我不敢在這邊下結論。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:14:15.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:14:17.543000+08:00","text":"我們沒有滾動式檢討嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:14:17.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:14:21.584000+08:00","text":"現在大家吵得沸沸揚揚，還是中研院不用電，是不是？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"許代所長育進","start":"2024-03-20T09:14:21.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:14:28.246000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們7月會有一個年中的預測發表會，我們在那個時候再做更新。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:14:30.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:14:31.528000+08:00","text":"年中會做更新？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許代所長育進","start":"2024-03-20T09:14:31.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:14:34.549000+08:00","text":"中間的「中」、7月底，我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:14:36.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:14:37.770000+08:00","text":"院長來綜合判斷一下吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:14:39.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:14:48.168000+08:00","text":"中研院也是國內五大重要的經濟預測單位，包括中央銀行、中研院、中經院、台經院等。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:14:49.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:04.060000+08:00","text":"我現在只要請教，其他單位也都會預期今年的經濟成長或者經濟狀況，尤其消費者最關心的是物價通膨的部分，那認為過去這兩年物價漲的幅度是不是有感？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:05.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:05.781000+08:00","text":"你自己本身的經驗。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:05.781000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:09.188000+08:00","text":"我個人的經驗不太準，因為我們看物價的波動要看統計數字才準，每一個人的個別判斷恐怕都有失精確。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:09.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:13.411000+08:00","text":"前兩年相對來講，我們的經濟表現是相對比較弱，今年看起來會不會物價有更成長的狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:13.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:14.032000+08:00","text":"我們當初也都沒有把電價調漲給算進去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:14.032000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:18.048000+08:00","text":"經濟預測是非常專業的一個面向，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:18.048000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:22.064000+08:00","text":"就是因為專業才要問你們，但是你現在給我一個很不專業的答案耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:22.064000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:26.080000+08:00","text":"抱歉，因為這不是我的專業，我們看經濟所可不可以幫忙一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:26.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:30.096000+08:00","text":"院長，沒關係，這代表的是感覺中研院好像跟我們民生有一段脫鉤。","quality":0.074},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:30.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:15:56.878000+08:00","text":"我再請教，其中有一個部分討論到電價的成長，電價成長就是能源的部分。是。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:15:58.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:16:19.429000+08:00","text":"對於再生能源，不管是2050淨零碳排，不管是相對的再生能源應用，本席也很關心，其中你有提到淨零5支箭，其中2支箭是地熱能和海洋能，本席認為這對我們臺灣得天獨厚的地理環境來講，好像相對算是有所幫助的。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:16:19.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:16:19.969000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:16:19.969000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:16:24.550500+08:00","text":"因為臺灣四面環海，而且可能有一些活火山等屬於地熱的部分，本席選區所在的北海岸原先有核一廠，它現在已經除役了，金山（第12選區）有核二廠，它正在除役，基隆有協和電廠，現在可能也要做轉型，請問有沒有針對這幾個部分的地熱能或是海洋能做進一步的研究？","quality":0.269},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:16:24.550500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:16:29.132000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們會從那個角度來繼續研究，這是非常好的問題，我們確實可以因地制宜，在那邊看看有沒有辦法利用既有的設施或是搭配既有的配電來做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:16:29.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:16:29.292000+08:00","text":"對，院長講到重點了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:16:59.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:17:27.121000+08:00","text":"一個電廠的設定包括後面更重要的電網配置，因為核一廠、核二廠及協和電廠過去在那邊發電三、四十年，本來就已經架設好完整的配電電網，如果能在那附近、不要太遠的地方能夠有新的再生能源發電的使用，那就可以利用原有的電網持續供應整個臺灣的用電。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:17:27.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:17:40.264000+08:00","text":"相對來講，第一，可能建置成本相對會比較低，第二，溝通成本也會比較低，第三是可以轉型為再生能源，尤其北海岸有豐富的不管是海洋能或地熱能等部分。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:17:42.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:17:55.596000+08:00","text":"委員這個問題非常好，我們現在在大屯山附近探測地熱能源一部分就是著眼於這個考量，將來假如探測成功，就可以利用附近核電廠既有的設施。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:17:56.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:18:01.840000+08:00","text":"除了大屯山，就是所謂的陽明山國家風景區，另外就是北海岸。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:18:01.840000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:18:07.477000+08:00","text":"北海岸部分，我們不要只講過去提到的離岸風電，它必須要有風電機組，其實它還包括海洋能、地熱能，所以本席今天會提出一個臨時提案，針對北海岸地區是不是中研院再和台電去做一個研究，看是不是能夠鎖定這幾個比較有潛力的未來發展的方向，重點加強去探究到底這些天然資源未來能不能轉化成我們想像的再生能源，可以嗎？","quality":0.007},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:18:07.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:18:13.114000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:18:13.114000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:18:18.751000+08:00","text":"「謝謝」的意思是可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:18:18.751000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:18:24.388000+08:00","text":"是的，這是非常好的方向。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:18:24.388000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:18:30.025000+08:00","text":"等一下我們討論臨時提案的時候，就請往這個方向邁進，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:18:30.025000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:18:35.662000+08:00","text":"這是非常好的建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:18:35.662000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:18:41.299000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:18:41.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:16.093000+08:00","text":"再來想跟院長請教一下，我們最近也看到有所謂的SRF──環境部、經濟部在推的固體再生燃料，也就是將廢棄物燃料化，針對這個部分，其實環境部有委託中研院做一個細懸浮微粒化學成分監測與分析計畫，抽查某使用SRF的工廠煙道採樣，發覺歷年濃度最高的塑化劑，可能會對人體造成危害。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:17.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:18.356000+08:00","text":"這個您應該有看到。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:18.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:20.939000+08:00","text":"我有看到新聞。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:20.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:30.247000+08:00","text":"所以SRF即便是所謂的固體再生燃料，是廢棄物燃料化，其實簡單講就是燒垃圾啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:31.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:35.953000+08:00","text":"燒垃圾也許可以降低一些燃料成本，但一定還是會造成空污嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:36.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:37.594000+08:00","text":"你覺得這樣還有可能被認定為綠電嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:41.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:42.859000+08:00","text":"這個應該是可以處理的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:43.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:47.984000+08:00","text":"委員提的問題非常重要，但是這個問題不見得不能處理，我們要仔細瞭解之後……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:48.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:54.610000+08:00","text":"但是我們會不會投入太多成本，反而造成發電效益和投入成本不相符？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:54.610000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:19:58.353000+08:00","text":"這個要仔細研究才知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:19:58.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:20:14.152000+08:00","text":"因為在你們過去的計畫裡面就已經探測出歷年濃度最高的塑化劑，所以有可能是在處理過程中沒有辦法完整的分類，而造成燃燒過程中還是會有塑化劑在裡面，是不是這樣？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:20:15.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:20:26.740000+08:00","text":"因為有些塑膠可能塑化劑用的比例比較高，這個可以用其他方法來處理，這可能需要再仔細研究，我們請環境變遷研究中心主任陳于高來補充說明。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:20:28.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:20:28.081000+08:00","text":"好，請簡單說明。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳主任于高","start":"2024-03-20T09:20:30.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:20:47.094000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，SRF有分好幾類，有一類的塑膠含量比較高，以前我們沒有對燃燒出來的這些塑化劑做處理，現在知道它比較高，其實是可以用新的技術加上去處理，只是成本還要再計算。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:20:47.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:20:48.796000+08:00","text":"成本是不是就相對高了嘛！是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:20:49.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:05.168000+08:00","text":"其實這是很簡單的概念，就是前面的分類分得越細，燒的東西可能就越純粹，但是前面分類那個細的程度會不會反而造成很高的成本，而不符合成本效益？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"陳主任于高","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:05.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:06.209000+08:00","text":"這個有可能。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:08.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:16.750000+08:00","text":"另外，SRF的分類標準誰來訂？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:16.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:17.750000+08:00","text":"是環境部訂、中研院訂，還是誰來訂？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:16.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:19.134000+08:00","text":"要分類到什麼程度再來燒才可以算是綠電？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:21.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:24.140000+08:00","text":"國內有哪個單位是做這樣的事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:24.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:25.983000+08:00","text":"還是只要使用SRF，都可以算是綠電？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:25.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:28.486000+08:00","text":"因為現在看起來好像經濟部就想這樣幹啊！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳主任于高","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:30.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:45.930000+08:00","text":"這是用生質的概念來做這件事情，因為SRF裡面生質的含量很高，而生質本身不算碳排，所以它有綠電的性質，但其實它還有其他的雜質，所以SRF不是百分之百算綠電。是！","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:47.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:48.812000+08:00","text":"所以不是百分之百算綠電嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:49.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:21:56.618000+08:00","text":"說實在的，如果它的分類沒有到達你剛剛所講的真的很細微的話，它中間太多雜質，根本沒有辦法算綠電嘛！","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳主任于高","start":"2024-03-20T09:21:58.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:22:06.289000+08:00","text":"雜質的成分相對沒有那麼高，因為我們的生活廢料裡面，生質的比例還算是滿高的，所以才會使用這個材料。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:22:06.289000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:22:08.030000+08:00","text":"好，感謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:22:08.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:22:09.892000+08:00","text":"這就是本席要提出來的，為什麼？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:22:09.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:22:15.818000+08:00","text":"因為現在看起來北、中、南開始有SRF的業者在辦地方說明會，本席的選區也有，但是我們一直強調的是，認定的部分是不是不能這樣？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:22:15.818000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:22:16.939000+08:00","text":"明明是垃圾或者明明燒出來之後有太多的塑化劑等等，但是怎麼會把它變成是綠電呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:22:16.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:22:49.799000+08:00","text":"院長，最後一個問題是，我看到你們最近也有在做AI方面的討論，本席昨天也率先倡議了，AI（人工智慧）基本法應該趕快來制定和落實，為什麼？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:22:49.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:23:04.986000+08:00","text":"因為現在生成式AI的應用真的太普遍了，去年除了好萊塢的罷工潮，還有很多方方面面都有在做AI的討論，請教一下院長的態度或方向，你贊不贊成國內應該趕快制定AI（人工智慧）基本法？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:23:05.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:23:13.389000+08:00","text":"我想朝這個方向是對的，但是要進行得多快，恐怕要學者專家一起來研議，因為這在全世界都還算相當新。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:23:13.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:23:15.710000+08:00","text":"相當新，但是歐盟已經通過了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:23:15.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:23:18.671000+08:00","text":"是，但要看我們是要跟隨歐盟，還是……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:23:22.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:23:32.919000+08:00","text":"這純粹是學術的探討，沒有對錯，以您自己的學術高度來講，您認為臺灣目前的走向比較適合走美、日這種相對開放式的，還是歐盟這種相對限縮式的？","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:23:32.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:23:44.385000+08:00","text":"我想每個國家的狀態都不太一樣，我們要擷取其中的精華，參照臺灣特有的狀況來定，很難講說一定是朝哪一個方向，可能我們要……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:23:45.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:23:47.747000+08:00","text":"那你覺得中華民國比較適合哪一個方向？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:23:49.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:23:54.120000+08:00","text":"應用在我們的方方面面，不管是公部門、私部門或是研究領域。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:23:54.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:24:09.667000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們要以人為本，所以AI的發展要對臺灣的社會有正面的貢獻，我們才去做，所以我們立法的宗旨可能要考量這個方面，每一個國家的狀況都不一樣。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"廖院長俊智","start":"2024-03-20T09:24:09.667000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:24:11.047000+08:00","text":"其次，我們要保護個人隱私及其他比如說智慧財產權，假如是公務機關使用的話，也有一些機密性的問題，像這些都要考量進去，每一個國家的狀態可能都會不一樣，所以要仔細考慮。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:24:11.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T09:24:11.348000+08:00","text":"感謝院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-03-20T09:24:11.848000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:24:31.848000+08:00","text":"我們沒有套好招，但是我們昨天記者會的名稱就叫「以人為本的人工智慧基本法的催生」，所以很高興我們在這個議題上面的方向有志一同，我們一起努力，好不好？謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.271},{"speaker":"主席（林委員倩綺代）","start":"2024-03-20T09:24:32.148000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:24:35.005143+08:00","text":"謝謝洪委員，院長請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（林委員倩綺代）","start":"2024-03-20T09:24:35.305143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T09:24:37.876571+08:00","text":"接下來我們請柯委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}