{"error":false,"id":["150140"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150140,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150140","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T11:30:07+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T11:40:52+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192b223778bf4bf0ca9ed861a3b97380652f8ba9b0039caa7a6303090bacd9a8aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:30:07 - 11:40:52","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案45案。[如經院會復議，則不予處理或審查]\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":917,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時30分）謝謝召委。請莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長午安。我今天還是要對於整個薪資問題跟部長做一下討論，今年我們公教人員的薪資調整4%，這整件事情我在總質詢的時候也對行政院整體表示肯定，針對物價通膨還有當時討論退休軍公教年金的時候，我們其實有一個計算的機制，也就是物價通膨5%或者每隔4年勢必要調整一次，當時加這個附帶意見、但書在裡頭，我覺得方向是對的，因為除了討論退休軍公教，我們對現在的公教人員也會持續做一些討論。","我要問部長，公股銀行為了留住人才調高待遇也是勢必的，公教人員、公股銀行同樣都是我們的同仁，所以這部分我們也會做配合，但是我們都知道公教人員跟國營事業的薪資結構事實上跟民間完全不一樣，我過去曾經聽說過八大公股銀行每次在調的時候，有些銀行非常好，它就調本俸，有些可能不是調本俸，它用另外的獎金加給方式做處理，部長知道有這個狀況嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：瞭解、知道。"],["李委員彥秀：對於行政院本來希望的方向，包括我們鼓勵民間用獎金的方向來調，我們先講政府的原意，你覺得政府的原意是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：政府的原意是希望不管是軍公教或是公股行庫……"],["李委員彥秀：包括民間企業。"],["莊部長翠雲：希望都能調薪，讓員工可以分享企業的獲利成果。"],["李委員彥秀：調薪是調本俸還是用獎金變動的方式來處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：至於是調本俸或獎金，我想本俸是一個基礎，未來是以這個基礎往上調，這是一個比較正規的做法，至於獎金可能以另外的方式……"],["李委員彥秀：部長回答對了，這是一個正規的方式，通常獎金的意思是在業績有競爭力、達標之後，我給你獎金嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，一次性的。"],["李委員彥秀：這可能會受環境、整個國際局勢影響，比如一個民間公司可能今年整體環境又不一樣，你沒有達標可能就沒有了，所以我們政府的原意是希望從本俸開始調整，我這樣講對不對？你也同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說得很對。"],["李委員彥秀：你知道我們八大行庫到目前為止有幾家確定調薪的方向？調的到底是獎金還是本俸？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，謝謝委員對公股行庫員工的關心，其實6家公股民營銀行裡面有4家從今年1月1號開始全面調薪，其餘2家是華南跟彰銀會在4月1號開始實施，所以都有調薪。"],["李委員彥秀：調的是什麼？我的重點是調本俸還是用獎金加給的方式，調的到底是什麼？你有沒有清楚？"],["莊部長翠雲：都有涵蓋在裡面，其實%數都不算低。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你還是沒有具體回答我的問題，我們都同意政府的原意是用本俸做調整，你也支持這樣的方向，所以你剛才很具體地回答我，我們八大行庫裡面有6家要用本俸做處理，這跟政府的原意是一樣的。我們都不希望讓勞工做功德，其實我們都應該朝著政府的方向來支持、鼓勵，所以華南跟彰銀目前如果不是用本俸的方式，而是可能用獎金的方式，我覺得部長站在照顧八大行庫員工的立場上就有必要進一步去做溝通。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明，我們已經調查過了，這6家都是調本薪。"],["李委員彥秀：另外2家呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：也是。"],["李委員彥秀：華南跟彰銀是調本薪嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：也是調本薪。"],["李委員彥秀：你確定嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，如果八大行庫每個都調本薪是最好的，那就很明確。","另外，因為當時的公股銀行是比照公務人員，所以他們跟民間的計算方式不太一樣，以部長的年俸來說可能已經到一個頂點了，也就是俗稱的達頂人員，他們調薪的方式會不會不一樣？他們的本俸已經達頂了，部長瞭解我的意思嗎？他已經到ceiling了，怎麼辦？有沒有機會調？當時公股銀行人員比照我們的公務人員，其實我覺得包括公務人員也都應該調，但這不是部長的事情，可是公股銀行是不是非得比照公務人員？已經達頂的部分就說沒辦法，因為是比照的，只好用別的形式，這一點怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個頂的部分也是可以調整的，這個頂並不是這麼死板。"],["李委員彥秀：所以部長願意去溝通？"],["莊部長翠雲：像彰銀在3月27號討論過會把薪資上限做調整，讓達頂的人員獲得調整，所以是可以調整的。"],["李委員彥秀：你現在回應我的是八大行庫不管是不是達頂人員都會朝本俸一定要調到4%，這樣的結論對嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，第一個是達頂的部分，如果這個公司把那個頂……"],["李委員彥秀：也會朝本俸去調？"],["莊部長翠雲：它的頂可以去做調整，頂的部分可以往上拉，這是可以做的，彰銀也已經通過了，至於其他銀行的頂是不是會調整，我們再來做進一步的瞭解。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，這就是我的兩個重點，第一個是本俸，八大行庫所有的員工都應該朝4%本俸去調；第二是達頂的，我們希望八大行庫裡面即便是達頂的，也都應該要朝……"],["莊部長翠雲：可以考慮去調整那個頂。"],["李委員彥秀：把它的ceiling拿開來。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我知道委員的意思。"],["李委員彥秀：這個是目標，可以嗎？這不是目標，是一定要做到，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以，我們朝這個方向。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，謝謝你的回應。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["李委員彥秀：第二點要討論我常常在基層看到的問題，現在小規模的營業場所、營業人每個月的營業額在20萬以下免用或免開統一發票，這是什麼時候訂的？"],["莊部長翠雲：這是民國75年的時候。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，因為今天的時間不多，民國75年到現在用免稅額20萬，但現在什麼都漲，人工也在一例一休、成本也在漲，包括我們的稅務人員，20萬以下的有這麼多耶！你要去查的成本也很高，那20萬是不是合理？現在這一題有兩個問題，民國75年訂20萬免開統一發票是不是合理？如果我們的稅務人員要去查這麼多，在各方面的人力上，第一個，我們是不是應該調整？第二個，我們應該朝衡平的方式去處理，用這麼多人力去查，我們如何在經濟原則和稅基損失的考量中取得平衡？有沒有調整的可能性？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，分兩個層面，第一個是營業稅的起徵點，也就是您剛剛講的繳稅，如果營業人每個月的銷售額、銷售貨物在8萬元以下，還有銷售勞務4萬元以下，它是免徵營業稅的。您剛剛提到的20萬是免開發票，也就是每個月平均銷售20萬以下免開發票……"],["李委員彥秀：這都是當時民國75年訂的。"],["莊部長翠雲：也跟委員報告，75年這樣訂是因為當時營業稅的新制建立，也就是以加值型營業稅加上使用統一發票的制度來推動，可是我們要考慮到小規模營業人跟特殊營業性質的人開發票在當時民國75年是有點困難的，因為您知道以前的發票都要寫……"],["李委員彥秀：是，我知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：還要花一個人力在那邊，所以我們訂一個額度免開統一發票。"],["李委員彥秀：這個額度到今年、到現在為止，整個時空環境、物價通膨、人力都已經有很大的變動。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，原則上應該都要開統一發票，只是考量他們當時開立有困難，所以訂個額度，其實開統一發票對我們來說非常重要，第一個，我們可以做稅收的勾稽……"],["李委員彥秀：我也同意，但當時的原意跟現在……"],["莊部長翠雲：隨著時空環境演變，現在開發票愈來愈方便，我們有電子發票，甚至有雲端發票，如果這部分不開發票，我們的稅務人員是用查定稅額的方式去做，我要花更多的人力。再來，就消費者來說，已經養成消費就要拿統一發票，因為我們告訴他要拿統一發票，為我們國家的稅收貢獻，他拿到發票可以去兌獎，如果我們把20萬再往上調，相對的開統一發票的家數就少了，那民眾可以取得發票的機會就變少，也影響到民眾的兌獎權益。所以這個部分是涉及到稅制當時的設計，以及鼓勵民眾索取統一發票，希望能擴大使用統一發票。"],["李委員彥秀：當時的稅制設計，我覺得同樣要考量到大環境的因素，因為你剛才講20萬免統一發票其實以現在同樣的狀況，便當、小吃店、麵店好了，麵攤好了，那個環境都已經不一樣了，所以我今天提這個問題，我希望你再去思考當時的原因。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["李委員彥秀：你剛才講的當然是部分因素，但是時空環境也不一樣了，很多成本也改變了，所以20萬是不是免開統一發票一個合理的金額，我希望部長去做思考。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員，謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。","接著我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王世堅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","李坤城","黃珊珊","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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向所以你剛才很具體的回答我我們八大行庫裡面只有兩家只有六家要用本鳳來去做處理這個跟政府的原意是一樣我們都不希望"},{"start":252.552,"end":267.808,"text":"讓勞工去做功德該怎麼樣政府的方向其實我們都應該去做朝政府的方向來支持鼓勵所以這一點華南跟張盈他目前如果不是用本鳳方式是有可能用蔣經方式的話我覺得部長"},{"start":268.849,"end":283.92,"text":"在照顧我們巴拉航空員工的立場上我覺得你就有必要進一步去做溝通跟委員說明這邊我們已經有調查過了這6家都是有條本心另外兩家呢也是華南跟張穎呢他是條本心嗎也是條本心你確定嗎是的"},{"start":287.663,"end":313.133,"text":"好那另外一個好那如果巴拉航空每一個都調本性那是最好那就很明確那另外一個就是說我們現在因為當時的公股銀行是比照公務人員所以他們跟民間的計算方式不太一樣所以有一些人他的年縫以部長來說你可能已經到一個頂點了就是所謂俗稱的打頂人員他們調新的方式會不會不一樣他們的本縫已經打頂了"},{"start":315.56,"end":320.998,"text":"部長,你了解我意思嗎?那怎麼辦?對,他已經到司令了,那怎麼辦?有沒有機會調?"},{"start":324.152,"end":348.009,"text":"這個其實當時公股銀行人員比照我們的公務人員其實我都覺得包括我們公務人員這個也應該調但這個不是你部長的事情但是公股銀行他是不是非得比照公務人員那他已經打頂的部分那你就說沒有辦法因為這個是比照但已經打頂我們沒有辦法我們只好用別的形式"},{"start":348.976,"end":375.095,"text":"這一點怎麼去做處理這個頂的部分也是可以調整的啊這個頂並不是這麼這麼這麼少那邊所以部長你願意去溝通像張盈盈的話她在3月27號她也討論過她會把薪資上限做一個調整讓打頂的人員能夠獲得調整所以你現在回應我的就是八大行庫不管是不是打頂人員有沒有打頂我們都會朝本縫都一定要調到4%"},{"start":376.596,"end":400.672,"text":"我這樣的結論對嗎?不是您是講第一個打頂的部分那如果這個公司你也會朝本鳳去調他頂可以去可以去做調整嘛頂那個部分可以往上拉嘛這是可以去做那張瑩也已經通過了那至於其他銀行的部分他那個頂是不是會去做調整我們再來做進一步的了解好部長那這個就是我兩個重點第一個本鳳巴大航庫所有的員工應該都朝4%本鳳去調"},{"start":403.234,"end":420.964,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":421.044,"end":422.585,"text":"我們現在小規模的營業場所營業人每個月的營業額在20萬底下這個是什麼時候訂的就是免用或免開統一發票"},{"start":437.412,"end":458.329,"text":"在民國75年的時候...好部長因為我今天時間不多你覺得75年現在用免稅額20萬以現在什麼都在漲然後人工也在一例一休什麼都在漲成本也在漲包括我們稅務人員如果針對20萬以下的有這麼多欸你要去查你的成本也很多"},{"start":459.17,"end":461.634,"text":"那20萬是不是合理?我現在這一題因為就有兩個問題。75年定的免稅開同一發票20萬是不是合理?那如果我們稅務人員要去查這麼多"},{"start":473.183,"end":474.084,"text":"委員報告分兩個層面第一個就是說營業稅的起徵點也就您剛剛講的就是說"},{"start":500.503,"end":523.712,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":523.712,"end":543.78,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":543.78,"end":560.879,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":561.079,"end":580.326,"text":"我也同意但是當時的原因現在就是說當時的原因現在現在其實時空環境演變為什麼因為開發票現在越來越方便我們有電子發票甚至雲端這個發票然後其實這個部分呢我們如果不開發票我們的稅務人員是用查定的稅額的方式去做我要花更多的人力"},{"start":580.726,"end":589.291,"text":" »:第3個就消費者來說他已經養成了我去消費我就拿統一發票因為我們告訴他說你要拿統一發票為這個我們的國家稅收進貢獻那他可以拿發票他可以去對獎如果我們把20萬再往上調相對的開統一發票加數就少了那民眾可以取得發票機會就變少那也影響到民眾的對獎權益所以這個部分是涉及到稅制當時的一個設計以及後來鼓勵民眾我去統一發票我覺得希望要擴大"},{"start":608.521,"end":636.92,"text":"當時的稅制設計我覺得同樣我覺得要考量到大環境的因素因為你剛才講20萬名統一發票其實以現在同樣的狀況便當小吃店麵店好了麵攤好了那個環境都已經不一樣了所以我今天提這個問題我希望你再去思考當時的原因你剛才講當然是部分因素但是時空環境也不一樣了很多成本也改變了所以20萬它是不是一個"},{"start":638.121,"end":638.802,"text":"是不是一個合理的金額我希望部長去做思考好謝謝委員的建議謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:30:07+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:30:08.540000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:30:08.540000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:30:10.080000+08:00","text":"請莊部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-20T11:30:10.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:30:10.861000+08:00","text":"有請莊部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:30:10.861000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:30:17.282500+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:30:17.282500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:30:23.704000+08:00","text":"部長午安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:30:23.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:31:08.895000+08:00","text":"我今天還是要對於整個薪資問題跟部長做一下討論，今年我們公教人員的薪資調整4%，這整件事情我在總質詢的時候也對行政院整體表示肯定，針對物價通膨還有當時討論退休軍公教年金的時候，我們其實有一個計算的機制，也就是物價通膨5%或者每隔4年勢必要調整一次，當時加這個附帶意見、但書在裡頭，我覺得方向是對的，因為除了討論退休軍公教，我們對現在的公教人員也會持續做一些討論。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:31:13.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:31:56.044000+08:00","text":"我要問部長，公股銀行為了留住人才調高待遇也是勢必的，公教人員、公股銀行同樣都是我們的同仁，所以這部分我們也會做配合，但是我們都知道公教人員跟國營事業的薪資結構事實上跟民間完全不一樣，我過去曾經聽說過八大公股銀行每次在調的時候，有些銀行非常好，它就調本俸，有些可能不是調本俸，它用另外的獎金加給方式做處理，部長知道有這個狀況嗎？","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:31:56.044000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:32:00.458000+08:00","text":"瞭解、知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:32:00.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:32:13.463000+08:00","text":"對於行政院本來希望的方向，包括我們鼓勵民間用獎金的方向來調，我們先講政府的原意，你覺得政府的原意是什麼？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:32:15.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:32:19.903000+08:00","text":"政府的原意是希望不管是軍公教或是公股行庫……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:32:21.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:32:21.965000+08:00","text":"包括民間企業。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:32:22.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:32:25.067000+08:00","text":"希望都能調薪，讓員工可以分享企業的獲利成果。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:32:25.067000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:32:26.067000+08:00","text":"調薪是調本俸還是用獎金變動的方式來處理？","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:32:25.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:32:28.531000+08:00","text":"至於是調本俸或獎金，我想本俸是一個基礎，未來是以這個基礎往上調，這是一個比較正規的做法，至於獎金可能以另外的方式……","quality":0.519},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:32:28.531000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:32:42.815000+08:00","text":"部長回答對了，這是一個正規的方式，通常獎金的意思是在業績有競爭力、達標之後，我給你獎金嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:32:42.815000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:32:57.099000+08:00","text":"對，一次性的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:32:57.099000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:11.383000+08:00","text":"這可能會受環境、整個國際局勢影響，比如一個民間公司可能今年整體環境又不一樣，你沒有達標可能就沒有了，所以我們政府的原意是希望從本俸開始調整，我這樣講對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:11.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:12.204000+08:00","text":"你也同意嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:12.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:13.386000+08:00","text":"是，委員說得很對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:16.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:21.959000+08:00","text":"你知道我們八大行庫到目前為止有幾家確定調薪的方向？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:24.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:24.984000+08:00","text":"調的到底是獎金還是本俸？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:29.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:44.358000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，謝謝委員對公股行庫員工的關心，其實6家公股民營銀行裡面有4家從今年1月1號開始全面調薪，其餘2家是華南跟彰銀會在4月1號開始實施，所以都有調薪。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:45.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:45.798000+08:00","text":"調的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:45.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:50.940000+08:00","text":"我的重點是調本俸還是用獎金加給的方式，調的到底是什麼？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:50.940000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:51.940000+08:00","text":"你有沒有清楚？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:51.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:33:55.482000+08:00","text":"都有涵蓋在裡面，其實%數都不算低。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:33:55.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:34:15.789000+08:00","text":"部長，你還是沒有具體回答我的問題，我們都同意政府的原意是用本俸做調整，你也支持這樣的方向，所以你剛才很具體地回答我，我們八大行庫裡面有6家要用本俸做處理，這跟政府的原意是一樣的。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:34:15.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:34:40.252000+08:00","text":"我們都不希望讓勞工做功德，其實我們都應該朝著政府的方向來支持、鼓勵，所以華南跟彰銀目前如果不是用本俸的方式，而是可能用獎金的方式，我覺得部長站在照顧八大行庫員工的立場上就有必要進一步去做溝通。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:34:40.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:34:46.697000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們已經調查過了，這6家都是調本薪。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:34:47.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:34:49.199000+08:00","text":"另外2家呢？也是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:34:49.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:34:50.640000+08:00","text":"華南跟彰銀是調本薪嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:34:50.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:34:50.740000+08:00","text":"也是調本薪。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:34:50.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:34:50.900000+08:00","text":"你確定嗎？是的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:34:54.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:35:00.125000+08:00","text":"好，如果八大行庫每個都調本薪是最好的，那就很明確。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:35:00.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:35:18.832000+08:00","text":"另外，因為當時的公股銀行是比照公務人員，所以他們跟民間的計算方式不太一樣，以部長的年俸來說可能已經到一個頂點了，也就是俗稱的達頂人員，他們調薪的方式會不會不一樣？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:35:18.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:35:24.547000+08:00","text":"他們的本俸已經達頂了，部長瞭解我的意思嗎？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:35:25.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:35:26.934000+08:00","text":"他已經到ceiling了，怎麼辦？","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:35:26.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:35:27.998000+08:00","text":"有沒有機會調？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:35:32.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:35:46.843000+08:00","text":"當時公股銀行人員比照我們的公務人員，其實我覺得包括公務人員也都應該調，但這不是部長的事情，可是公股銀行是不是非得比照公務人員？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:35:47.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:35:57.197000+08:00","text":"已經達頂的部分就說沒辦法，因為是比照的，只好用別的形式，這一點怎麼處理？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:35:58.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:36:02.421000+08:00","text":"這個頂的部分也是可以調整的，這個頂並不是這麼死板。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:36:03.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:36:04.883000+08:00","text":"所以部長願意去溝通？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:36:05.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:36:13.128000+08:00","text":"像彰銀在3月27號討論過會把薪資上限做調整，讓達頂的人員獲得調整，所以是可以調整的。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:36:13.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:36:25.477000+08:00","text":"你現在回應我的是八大行庫不管是不是達頂人員都會朝本俸一定要調到4%，這樣的結論對嗎？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:36:25.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:36:29.260000+08:00","text":"不是，第一個是達頂的部分，如果這個公司把那個頂……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:36:29.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:36:30.761000+08:00","text":"也會朝本俸去調？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:36:31.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:36:42.569000+08:00","text":"它的頂可以去做調整，頂的部分可以往上拉，這是可以做的，彰銀也已經通過了，至於其他銀行的頂是不是會調整，我們再來做進一步的瞭解。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:36:42.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:08.184000+08:00","text":"部長，這就是我的兩個重點，第一個是本俸，八大行庫所有的員工都應該朝4%本俸去調；第二是達頂的，我們希望八大行庫裡面即便是達頂的，也都應該要朝……","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:08.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:09.184000+08:00","text":"可以考慮去調整那個頂。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:09.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:10.184000+08:00","text":"把它的ceiling拿開來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:10.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:11.184000+08:00","text":"是，我知道委員的意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:11.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:12.184000+08:00","text":"這個是目標，可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:12.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:13.184000+08:00","text":"這不是目標，是一定要做到，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:13.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:14.184000+08:00","text":"可以，我們朝這個方向。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:14.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:15.184000+08:00","text":"部長，謝謝你的回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:15.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:16.184000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:08.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:09.565000+08:00","text":"第二點要討論我常常在基層看到的問題，現在小規模的營業場所、營業人每個月的營業額在20萬以下免用或免開統一發票，這是什麼時候訂的？","quality":0.552},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:24.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:26.134000+08:00","text":"這是民國75年的時候。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:26.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:42.547000+08:00","text":"部長，因為今天的時間不多，民國75年到現在用免稅額20萬，但現在什麼都漲，人工也在一例一休、成本也在漲，包括我們的稅務人員，20萬以下的有這麼多耶！","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:43.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:46.651000+08:00","text":"你要去查的成本也很高，那20萬是不是合理？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:46.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:47.513000+08:00","text":"現在這一題有兩個問題，民國75年訂20萬免開統一發票是不是合理？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:47.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:48.614000+08:00","text":"如果我們的稅務人員要去查這麼多，在各方面的人力上，第一個，我們是不是應該調整？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:48.614000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:37:54.398500+08:00","text":"第二個，我們應該朝衡平的方式去處理，用這麼多人力去查，我們如何在經濟原則和稅基損失的考量中取得平衡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:37:54.398500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:38:00.183000+08:00","text":"有沒有調整的可能性？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:38:00.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:38:00.843000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，分兩個層面，第一個是營業稅的起徵點，也就是您剛剛講的繳稅，如果營業人每個月的銷售額、銷售貨物在8萬元以下，還有銷售勞務4萬元以下，它是免徵營業稅的。","quality":0.386},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:38:00.843000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:38:13.305286+08:00","text":"您剛剛提到的20萬是免開發票，也就是每個月平均銷售20萬以下免開發票……","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:38:13.305286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:38:25.767571+08:00","text":"這都是當時民國75年訂的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:38:25.767571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:38:38.229857+08:00","text":"也跟委員報告，75年這樣訂是因為當時營業稅的新制建立，也就是以加值型營業稅加上使用統一發票的制度來推動，可是我們要考慮到小規模營業人跟特殊營業性質的人開發票在當時民國75年是有點困難的，因為您知道以前的發票都要寫……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:38:38.229857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:38:50.692143+08:00","text":"是，我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:38:50.692143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:39:03.154429+08:00","text":"還要花一個人力在那邊，所以我們訂一個額度免開統一發票。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:39:03.154429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:39:15.616714+08:00","text":"這個額度到今年、到現在為止，整個時空環境、物價通膨、人力都已經有很大的變動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:39:15.616714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:39:28.079000+08:00","text":"委員，原則上應該都要開統一發票，只是考量他們當時開立有困難，所以訂個額度，其實開統一發票對我們來說非常重要，第一個，我們可以做稅收的勾稽……","quality":0.016},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:39:28.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:39:30.400000+08:00","text":"我也同意，但當時的原意跟現在……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:39:33.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:39:47.306000+08:00","text":"隨著時空環境演變，現在開發票愈來愈方便，我們有電子發票，甚至有雲端發票，如果這部分不開發票，我們的稅務人員是用查定稅額的方式去做，我要花更多的人力。","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:39:48.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:39:54.430000+08:00","text":"再來，就消費者來說，已經養成消費就要拿統一發票，因為我們告訴他要拿統一發票，為我們國家的稅收貢獻，他拿到發票可以去兌獎，如果我們把20萬再往上調，相對的開統一發票的家數就少了，那民眾可以取得發票的機會就變少，也影響到民眾的兌獎權益。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:39:54.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:39:56.271000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分是涉及到稅制當時的設計，以及鼓勵民眾索取統一發票，希望能擴大使用統一發票。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:40:15.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:40:36.836000+08:00","text":"當時的稅制設計，我覺得同樣要考量到大環境的因素，因為你剛才講20萬免統一發票其實以現在同樣的狀況，便當、小吃店、麵店好了，麵攤好了，那個環境都已經不一樣了，所以我今天提這個問題，我希望你再去思考當時的原因。好。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2024-03-20T11:40:36.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:40:45.682000+08:00","text":"你剛才講的當然是部分因素，但是時空環境也不一樣了，很多成本也改變了，所以20萬是不是免開統一發票一個合理的金額，我希望部長去做思考。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-03-20T11:40:45.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-20T11:40:45.802000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員，謝謝委員的建議，謝謝。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-20T11:40:46.302000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:40:49.159143+08:00","text":"謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-20T11:40:49.459143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-20T11:40:52.887714+08:00","text":"接著我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}