{"error":false,"id":["150208"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150208,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150208","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T10:01:43+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T10:15:41+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc30522d93c88af959fd127dd815aba809727bf8ba9b0039caa7a6b268d5fed35f2e155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:01:43 - 10:15:41","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請立法院秘書長列席就「中華民國總統至立法院進行國情報告及詢答模式之建議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":343,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時1分）在正式質詢之前，我請教召委，今天的題目是報告關於總統到立法院進行國情報告的詢答模式，對不對？我很好奇，請立法院的秘書長我可以理解，為什麼要請司法院的秘書長？這是應黨團兩位總召的建議嗎？還是有哪位委員建議？"],["主席：沒有，因為這個部分跟憲法有關係，當然憲法的話，我們就會請司法院的秘書長來說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，瞭解。"],["主席：因為這是憲法增修條文第四條的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以不是兩位黨團的總召……"],["主席：這跟總召沒有關係……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有關係嘛！"],["主席：我覺得這個除了跟立法院有關……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是主席的決定。"],["主席：跟憲法增修條文也有關係。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，那我就懂了，接下來要請教兩位。","好，主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士、先生。有請立法院的周秘書長跟司法院的吳秘書長。"],["主席：請兩位秘書長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：吳秘書長好，周秘書長好。先請教吳秘書長，經過跟主席的詢問就知道了，這個議題大概在您的書面報告都講得很清楚，就兩點，第一個，根據憲法增修條文第四條，總統要到立法院進行國情報告，並沒有相關的解釋跟裁判，對不對？司法院就這個說明。"],["吳秘書長三龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二個，司法院基於司法的最後性原則，如果院跟院這個最高機關、憲政機關針對這個議題有不同的見解，還是循總統出來調解的方式，非不得已才到司法院聲請釋憲，是不是這個意思？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是這個意思。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，請回。周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：是，鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：聽聞你的大名很久了，早在我1996年擔任國民大會第3屆國大代表的時候，您就在立法院擔任議事組的重要職務。"],["周秘書長萬來：我當時是議事組的主任。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是議事組的主任，本席是第3屆國大代表的其中之一，你知不知道賴副總統也是當年第3屆的國大代表？"],["周秘書長萬來：我知道鍾委員是代表，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：賴副總統也是，你也知道吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為議事規則本來要請我去研議，所以我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。既然我們有多位過去經歷過第3屆國大代表，我請教你，為什麼立法院有總統的國情報告，但是沒有檢討國是？我跟您說明一下，1992年一機關二階段的第2屆國大代表第2次修憲的時候，增列憲法增修條文第一條第七項前段，規定「國民大會集會時，得聽取總統國情報告，並檢討國是，提供建言」。但是多位委員都只看到2000年第6次修憲，這也是本席有參與的；增修條文第四條第三項說，立法院每年集會時，得聽取總統國情報告。秘書長，你有沒有注意到哪裡不一樣？什麼地方不見了？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你看一下條文，你就直接回答。"],["周秘書長萬來：我瞭解，因為鍾委員是在國民大會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你就直接回答，主席裁示了，你發現這兩個修憲哪裡不一樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：就你後面的那一段沒有嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是我後面的啦，條文的後面。"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：條文中的「檢討國是，提供建言」不一樣了。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，我們在報告裡面都有寫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那個時候修憲是單一政黨過四分之三嗎？有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛，2000年的時候單一政黨過四分之三，國民黨是不是也同意刪除後段？會經過這樣的調整，是國民黨當時也同意的。來！我告訴你，幫你回憶一下，第3屆第5次國民大會議事錄當中，原修憲提案第3號修正憲法增修條文第四條條文，進行記名表決，表決結果出席的投票代表293人，當年國民大會的總員額是331位，結果贊成286位，可以說幾乎各黨派一致同意，包括國民黨、民進黨跟新黨，這你瞭解啦，同意嗎？你清楚這段歷史嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不瞭解當時的表決過程。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你知道這是一致通過的？"],["周秘書長萬來：國民大會已經把這個寫出來了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你因為本席在那裡，本席的名字在上面，我有上去發言，所以我可以證實這是各黨協商一致同意的經過。好，接下來問為什麼國民大會可以聽取國情報告？有沒有想過？憲法總共175條，有哪個條文說國民大會可以聽取總統的國情報告？你知不知道？"],["周秘書長萬來：憲法是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：完全沒有，憲法本文沒有，那為什麼國民大會修憲的時候要列這個國情報告呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：我73年曾經到國民大會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：又要開始話說從頭了，我直接告訴你答案好了，聽你講會浪費我時間。憲法本文第二十七條，國民大會的職權在哪裡？選總統、副總統，到了1992年第二次修憲的時候，憲法增修條文第十二條第一項，總統、副總統由中華民國自由地區全體人民直接選舉產生，是不是這樣？因為總統直選了，那在直選之後，國民大會要幹嘛？以前直選之前，國民大會6年集會一次，集會幹嘛？選總統！現在總統交給人民選了，國民大會幹嘛？國民大會沒有事情，就怎麼樣？國民大會集會時，每年集會一次，得聽取總統國情報告，並檢討國是，提供建言，因為修憲之後，國民大會沒事幹了，6年改成4年，總統也人民選，他集會幹嘛？只好請總統來報告，得聽取總統國情報告，聽取喔！你認為是不是這樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：鍾委員的分析非常明確。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝你的肯定。來！我再告訴你，1991年第一次修憲的時候，一機關二階段，憲法增修條文第七項前段，還有第三項，你看差別在1992年到2000年，最後很奇怪，到2008年，在國民大會2005年廢掉之後，立法院職權行使法第十五條之四規定，經總統同意時，得綜合再做補充報告，請問一下秘書長，你認為立法委員在自己的行使法當中超越了憲法增修條文的內容，你覺得有沒有擴權之嫌？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為現行法也通過這麼久了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現行法是憲法？"],["周秘書長萬來：不是，立法院職權行使法，那也沒有人去聲請司法院解釋。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是在暗示我們要提出請司法院釋憲囉？"],["周秘書長萬來：我倒不是這個意思。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。我們看下一張，2008年的立法理由說為兼顧憲政精神，引入總統自行同意之設計，爰為第二項規定，有沒有看到？非憲法義務。當年立法院訂定職權行使法的時候也說得很清楚，這不是總統的憲法義務，是自己加上去的，看總統高興不高興，他自己決定，很清楚嘛！連立法委員在通過的時候都很清楚。往下一條，所以在1991年一機關二階段的時候就是這個過程。第1屆的老國大通過國會全面改選，交給第2屆來執行相關的修憲，所以我告訴你關鍵在哪裡，看下一頁，甚至國民大會修憲的時候還可以預告修憲，在第2屆修憲的時候，他還說總統、副總統由中華民國自由地區全體人民選舉之，前項的選舉方式，在1992年預告了，到1995年之前，因為那時候國民大會代表任期就屆滿了，由國民大會集會以憲法增修條文定之，請問你所瞭解的，各國的憲法可以在修法的時候也預告未來要修憲嗎？你有沒有看過這樣的方式？有沒有看過，預告未來要修憲？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼要預告修憲，就定出了總統副總統的選舉是相對多數，也是本會委員關心的二輪投票制，在那個時候，國民黨主導的國民大會在1992年預告1995年要修憲，把它定為現在的選舉方式。","所以我們來看一下，總統選舉權換國情報告、司法跟考試同意權，當國民大會把總統選舉權讓渡出來給人民直選的時候，它要了兩個東西，司法院的同意權本來是監察院行使，拿到國民大會來；也把考試院的人事同意權從監察院拿到國民大會來。所以一次總統直選，國民大會得到三樣東西，考試院的人事同意權、司法院的人事同意權，還有請總統可以來報告國情，這樣瞭解了喔！這我不再給你上課，我現在複習歷史。","所以即便國情報告、國是建言，也是輪流發言。我在1997年那時候為了18歲公民權問了一下，李總統在旁邊有沒有上來回答？您看李前總統到國民大會去報告國是，聽取建言的時候，有沒有現場回答？有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：但是法條很清楚是綜合答復。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問你嘛！我說你任職很久，你也知道本席在國民大會，你在立法院嘛！那時候李登輝前總統到國民大會去聽取建言，有回答嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：綜合答復吧。就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有啦！本席擔任的4年當中，每次總統來國情報告，聽取建言的時候，他都是聽而已，他沒有回答啦！這樣瞭解了喔！","所以你的意見我覺得蠻道地的，「委員提案與現行總統國情報告有所不同……與憲法增修條文第四條第三項用語不同」很明顯地，而且你還說其他國家的總統詢答方式尚未見即席詢答。這是你經過比較、研究後的結果吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們法制局有給委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你從法制局的研究當中得到這樣的結論？"],["周秘書長萬來：其實我書裡面都有寫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你的書有寫，很好，我們往下看……"],["周秘書長萬來：我的書有寫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以從修憲歷程、現行憲法來看，要強制總統報告，憲法增修條文是「得」，總統可以來，他也可以不來，我們改成什麼？我們改成什麼？「應」立法院的邀請，是不是？有沒有？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為要看第十五條之二……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是職權行使法，不是憲法。好，所以如果今天在野黨包括國民黨，他希望總統要來立法院提出國情報告、聽取建言，那他就要修憲，你認為呢？除了修憲有沒有第二條路走？"],["周秘書長萬來：我想因為現行條文有明定，所以也沒有到修憲的問題存在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔！明定就可以不要修憲？那不修憲可以來嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：以現行我們立法院職權行使法的規定，只要有第十五條之二的那些要件，當然他會來嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：他可以來……"],["周秘書長萬來：那就是義務性的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是沒有提到要詢答嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：詢答是因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他同意嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：以現行條文第十五條之四是沒有，但是委員之間如果再提……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！不勉強你啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：如果大家有意見，認為這有違憲，當然就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你的意思是說，職權行使法有沒有超越憲法的規定、擴權，因為還沒有人去請求釋憲，所以你也不好專擅。","最後我問周秘書長，國會改革除了軟體也需要硬體，立法院擴建進度，這一屆結束前可不可以完成？可不可以？"],["周秘書長萬來：現在本來就有在規劃，因為原來的就我所瞭解有規劃設計費。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可不可以3個月內提出書面報告？"],["周秘書長萬來：我只能這樣說明，因為游院長有提到說這一屆繼續，那我大概有初步跟院長報告過，大概因為黨團……因為現在有6個地方嘛。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我只問他3個月內可不可以提出說明報告，秘書長講了很久沒有講到重點，可不可以？"],["主席：直接回答，我們剛剛已經講一定要直接回答。"],["周秘書長萬來：不是我不直接回答，因為有6個地方，那我……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是說3個月不夠，要6個月，是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：不是、不是，鍾委員先聽我報告，因為現在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那不能提書面報告？"],["周秘書長萬來：上一屆、第10屆裡面是有6個地方，這個一定要黨團去……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我只是要你提出書面報告而已耶！"],["周秘書長萬來：如果是報告，我沒有問題啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可以啦，謝謝、謝謝。"],["周秘書長萬來：報告我們可以請總務處提出來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，請回、請回。","最後一個問題，吳秘書長，剛剛周秘書長的意思是說，立法院職權行使法有沒有涉及違反憲法增修條文、擴權之嫌，要有人提出、有機關提出釋憲，司法院這邊才會受理，是不是這樣的意思？你聽他的意思是不是這樣子？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們在這個「說明」裡面有說到，結論是就這個相關議題，本院不便也不宜表示意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不便也不宜？那瞭解了。本席要告訴你，因為你今天是就國情報告來回應的，本席不會也不能對個案來進行關說，謝謝。"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","羅智強","翁曉玲","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra 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周秘書長好那先請教吳秘書長好因為經過跟主席的詢問就知道了大概您對這個議題呢在您的書面報告都講得很清楚就兩點第一個就是根據憲法政策條例第4條總統要到立法院進行國情報告並沒有相關的解釋跟裁判 對不對"},{"start":94.065,"end":112.495,"text":"所以司法院就這個說明嘛第二個司法院基於司法的最後性原則所以呢既然如果有這個議題有院跟院最高機關憲政機關的不同見解還是循總統出來調解非不得已才到司法院釋憲是不是您這個意思是這個意思好謝謝請回請回"},{"start":118.06,"end":127.475,"text":"聽聞你的大名也很久了早在我1996年擔任國民大會第三屆國大代表的時候那時候您就在立法院擔任議事組的好像重要職務嗎?"},{"start":128.719,"end":148.457,"text":"我那時候是主任那您知道第三屆的國大代表本席是其中之一你知不知道賴副總統也是當年第三屆的國大代表我知道總委也是 但是代表賴副總統也是嘛 你也知道意思規則本來要請我去做演繹 所以我知道"},{"start":149.057,"end":173.131,"text":"謝謝好 那麼既然這樣如此我們有多位過去經歷過第二第三屆國大代表的時候請教為什麼立法院有總統的國情報告但是沒有檢討國事我跟您說明一下在1992年一機關二階段的第二屆的國大代表第二次修憲的時候他就說政略的憲法正條文第一項第一條第七項前段國民大會集會時得聽取總統國情報告並檢討國事提供建言"},{"start":177.634,"end":192.353,"text":"但是我們多位委員都只看到在2000年第6次修憲也是我本席有參與的政協條文第4條第3項他說立法院每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告秘書長你有沒有注意到哪裡不一樣?什麼地方不見了?"},{"start":195.415,"end":214.564,"text":"你看一下條文你就直接回答你就直接回答主席才是你了你發現這兩個修憲哪裡不一樣就你後面的那一段沒有嘛不是我後面的啦條文的後面啦條文的檢討國事提供件有不一樣我們在報告裡面都有寫那個時候修憲是單一政黨過十分之三嗎有沒有有嘛2000年的時候單一政黨過十分之三那國民黨是不是也同意刪除後段"},{"start":225.228,"end":251.201,"text":"會經過這樣的調整是國民黨當時也同意的來我告訴你幫你回憶一下第三屆第5次國民大會的議事會當中原修憲提案第3號修正憲法正確條文第4條條文進行近民表決表決結果出席的投票代表293人當年的國民大會的總員額是331位結果呢贊成286位其實可以說幾乎各黨派一致同意包括國民黨民進黨跟新黨這你了解啦齁"},{"start":254.244,"end":261.628,"text":"同意嗎?你清楚這段歷史嗎?我告訴你 因為本席在那裡 本席的名字在上面 我有上去發言所以我可以證實這是大家各黨一致協商 同意的經過好 接下來問"},{"start":274.156,"end":292.658,"text":"為什麼國民大會可以聽取國情報告?有沒有想過?憲法175條總共175條有哪個條文說國民大會可以聽取總統的國情報告?你知不知道?憲法?有沒有?完全沒有,憲法本文沒有那為什麼徵求條文國民大會修憲的時候要拿這個國情報告呢?"},{"start":294.065,"end":304.129,"text":"因為當時我73年曾經到國民大會又要開始話說從頭了我直接告訴你答案好了聽你講會浪費我時間憲法本文第27條國民大會直選在哪裡選總統副總統到了192年第二次修憲的時候憲法正條文第12條第一項總統副總統由中華民國自由地區全體人民職業選舉產生是不是這樣因為總統直選了"},{"start":319.417,"end":333.264,"text":"那在直選之後國民大會要幹嘛以前國民大會直選之前6年集會一次集會幹嘛選總統現在總統交給人民選了國民大會幹嘛所以呢國民大會就講了沒有事情就怎樣"},{"start":334.785,"end":341.93,"text":"國民大會集會時每年集會一次聽取總統國情報告並檢討國事提供建言因為修憲之後國民大會沒事幹6年改成4年總統也人民選他集會幹嘛只好請總統來報告得聽取總統國情報告聽取喔他檢討國事提供建言你認為是不是這樣"},{"start":358.767,"end":384.096,"text":"中委的分析非常明確謝謝你的肯定來我再告訴你下一張1991年第一次修憲的時候一機關二階段來我們看看這裡剛剛寫的憲法政調第七項前段還有呢第三項你看差別在1992年到2000年最後很奇怪了到2008年距離國民大會被廢掉2005年廢掉之後呢立法院職員刑事法第15條"},{"start":385.436,"end":401.355,"text":"指示他說今總統同意時得綜合在座補充報告請問一下秘書長你認為立法委員在自己的行使法當中去超越了憲法正條文的內容你覺得有沒有擴前之嫌擴全之嫌"},{"start":402.517,"end":417.555,"text":"因為憲憲法通過這麼久了憲憲法是憲法嗎不是 憲刑 立法院執行刑事法那也沒有人去申請司法案的提出你少暗示我們要提出請司法院做事先囉我倒不是 我倒不是這樣意思我倒不是這個意思"},{"start":420.426,"end":445.079,"text":"我們看這一張 這2018年立法理由說為堅固憲政精神引入總統自行同意之設計 原為第二項規定有沒有看到 非憲法義務啊當年立法院訂立新執法的時候 也說得很清楚啊這不是總統的憲法義務 是自己加上去的看總統高興不高興 他自己決定很清楚嘛 連立法委員在通過的時候都很清楚好 往下一條"},{"start":446.059,"end":463.976,"text":"所以在1991年一級官二階段的時候就是這個過程第一屆的老國大通過可以國會前面開選交給第二屆來執行相關的修憲所以我告訴你關鍵在哪裡來看下一頁甚至國民大會修憲的時候還可以預告修憲在第二屆的時候第二屆修憲的時候他還說中華民國的總統"},{"start":468.311,"end":489.068,"text":"直接選舉前向的選舉方式預告在1992年預告到1985年之前那時候任期就屆滿了由國民大會集會以憲法徵修條文定制請問你所了解的各國的憲法可以在修法的時候還預告未來要修憲你有沒有看過這樣的方式"},{"start":490.063,"end":512.438,"text":"有沒有看過預告未來要修憲為什麼要預告修憲就訂出了總統副總統的選舉是相對多數也是委員在關心的二輪投票是在那個時候國民黨主導的國民大會預告1992年預告1995年要修憲把它訂為現在的選舉方式好下一條"},{"start":513.567,"end":540.384,"text":"所以我們來看一下總統選舉權換國情報告還有司法跟考試同意權當國民大會把總統選舉權讓渡出來給人民執選的時候他要了兩個東西一個呢 把監察院的同意權從司法院的同意權本來是由監察院行使拿到國民大會來他把考試院的人事同意權從監察院拿到國民大會來所以一次總統執選國民大會得到三樣東西"},{"start":542.008,"end":543.249,"text":"李總統在旁邊有沒有上來回答?您看過"},{"start":566.584,"end":587.443,"text":"李前總統到國民大會去報告國事聽取建言的時候有沒有現場回答 有沒有我是問你嘛 我說你歷史很久嘛你也知道本席在國民大會嘛 你在立法院嘛那時候李登輝前總統到國民大會去聽取建言 有回答嗎沒有啦"},{"start":592.762,"end":607.052,"text":"本席擔任的四年當中每次總統來國情報告聽取建言的時候他都是聽而已啦他沒有回答啦這樣了解了齁往下一頁所以呢你的意見我覺得蠻道地的啦"},{"start":608.376,"end":623.218,"text":"委員提案跟現行的總統國情報告不同憲法正條第4條第3項用語不同很明顯的而且你還說其他國家的總統詢答方式尚未見及時詢答這是你經過比較研究的結果吧"},{"start":625.359,"end":649.427,"text":"所以我們法治局有給委員有19種所以你從法治局演繹到立法院的結論其實我書裡面都有寫你的書也有寫很好我們看一下往下看所以呢從修憲的歷程現行的憲法來看要強制總統報告本來的憲法這條本文是德總統他可以來他也可以不來我們改成什麼我們改成什麼"},{"start":652.967,"end":655.005,"text":"立法院的邀請是不是 有沒有"},{"start":658.949,"end":683.341,"text":"那是執行新司法不是憲法所以如果說今天在野黨包括國民黨他希望要總統要來立法院提出國情報告聽取建言那他就要修憲你認為呢除了修憲有沒有第二條路走我想因為現行條文有明定所以也沒有到修憲的問題存在明定就不要修憲那不修憲可以來嗎"},{"start":684.361,"end":701.72,"text":"以現行的我們立法院的規定只要有那個第15條之後的那些要件當然他會來他可以來但是沒有提到要詢答嘛詢答是因為他同意嘛以現行條文15條之事是沒有但是"},{"start":703.137,"end":714.992,"text":"委員之間 如果在提 台灣 如果大家有違憲 這個你的意思是說 維權刑事法有沒有超越憲法的規定擴權 因為還沒有人去請求釋憲 所以你也不好專善 來 請秘書長來 請"},{"start":719.079,"end":723.381,"text":"國會改革的軟體也需要硬體,立法院擴建進度這屆結束可不可以完成?規劃現在本來就有在規劃,因為原來的我所了解有規劃設計會的可不可以3個月內提出說明報告?"},{"start":743.011,"end":753.337,"text":"主席主席我只問他三個月提出書面報告秘書長講了很久沒有講到重點可不可以直接回答我們剛剛已經講說一定要直接回答"},{"start":767.386,"end":786.524,"text":"因為這不是我不直接回答 因為有6個地方那我不用我 你說3個月不夠要6個月是不是不是不是 周委員你聽我報告不能提書面報告你上一屆這10屆裡面是有6個地方那我只是要你提出書面報告而已欸"},{"start":787.405,"end":793.19,"text":"立法院執行刑事法有沒有涉及到違反憲法增強條文擴權之前,要有人提出、有機關提出釋憲,司法院這邊才會受理,是不是這樣意思?"},{"start":811.184,"end":834.059,"text":"因為就我們在這個說明有說到有這個結論就是說就這個相關議題我們本院不便也不宜表示意見不便也不宜啦那了解了那本席要告訴你因為今天來是就國情報告來回應的本席不會也不能對個案來進行關說謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:01:56.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:08.403000+08:00","text":"在正式質詢之前，我請教召委，今天的題目是報告關於總統到立法院進行國情報告的詢答模式，對不對？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:08.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:13.666000+08:00","text":"我很好奇，請立法院的秘書長我可以理解，為什麼要請司法院的秘書長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:13.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:19.070000+08:00","text":"這是應黨團兩位總召的建議嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:19.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:19.851000+08:00","text":"還是有哪位委員建議？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:19.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:25.940000+08:00","text":"沒有，因為這個部分跟憲法有關係，當然憲法的話，我們就會請司法院的秘書長來說明。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:25.940000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:26.940000+08:00","text":"謝謝，瞭解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:26.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:26.500000+08:00","text":"因為這是憲法增修條文第四條的問題。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:26.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:27.402000+08:00","text":"所以不是兩位黨團的總召……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:27.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:28.402000+08:00","text":"這跟總召沒有關係……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:28.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:29.402000+08:00","text":"沒有關係嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:29.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:30.402000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個除了跟立法院有關……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:30.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:31.402000+08:00","text":"是主席的決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:31.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:32.402000+08:00","text":"跟憲法增修條文也有關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:32.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:33.402000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，那我就懂了，接下來要請教兩位。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:33.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:34.402000+08:00","text":"好，主席、在場的委員、先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士、先生。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:34.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:35.402000+08:00","text":"有請立法院的周秘書長跟司法院的吳秘書長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:32.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:02:33.049000+08:00","text":"請兩位秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:02:59.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:00.690000+08:00","text":"吳秘書長好，周秘書長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:01.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:16.284000+08:00","text":"先請教吳秘書長，經過跟主席的詢問就知道了，這個議題大概在您的書面報告都講得很清楚，就兩點，第一個，根據憲法增修條文第四條，總統要到立法院進行國情報告，並沒有相關的解釋跟裁判，對不對？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:17.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:18.826000+08:00","text":"司法院就這個說明。對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:19.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:33.694000+08:00","text":"第二個，司法院基於司法的最後性原則，如果院跟院這個最高機關、憲政機關針對這個議題有不同的見解，還是循總統出來調解的方式，非不得已才到司法院聲請釋憲，是不是這個意思？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳秘書長三龍","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:33.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:34.655000+08:00","text":"是這個意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:34.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:35.255000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:35.255000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:38.157500+08:00","text":"周秘書長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:38.157500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:41.060000+08:00","text":"是，鍾委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:41.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:50.475000+08:00","text":"聽聞你的大名很久了，早在我1996年擔任國民大會第3屆國大代表的時候，您就在立法院擔任議事組的重要職務。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:51.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:03:53.941000+08:00","text":"我當時是議事組的主任。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:03:55.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:01.268000+08:00","text":"是議事組的主任，本席是第3屆國大代表的其中之一，你知不知道賴副總統也是當年第3屆的國大代表？","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:02.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:05.311000+08:00","text":"我知道鍾委員是代表，因為……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:06.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:07.173000+08:00","text":"賴副總統也是，你也知道吧？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:08.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:12.057000+08:00","text":"因為議事規則本來要請我去研議，所以我知道。謝謝。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:12.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:21.603000+08:00","text":"既然我們有多位過去經歷過第3屆國大代表，我請教你，為什麼立法院有總統的國情報告，但是沒有檢討國是？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:22.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:36.111000+08:00","text":"我跟您說明一下，1992年一機關二階段的第2屆國大代表第2次修憲的時候，增列憲法增修條文第一條第七項前段，規定「國民大會集會時，得聽取總統國情報告，並檢討國是，提供建言」。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:40.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:52.749000+08:00","text":"但是多位委員都只看到2000年第6次修憲，這也是本席有參與的；增修條文第四條第三項說，立法院每年集會時，得聽取總統國情報告。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:53.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:55.132000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你有沒有注意到哪裡不一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:55.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:55.333000+08:00","text":"什麼地方不見了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:55.333000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:58.415000+08:00","text":"因為我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:58.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:04:59.756000+08:00","text":"你看一下條文，你就直接回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:04:59.756000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:02.657000+08:00","text":"我瞭解，因為鍾委員是在國民大會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:02.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:06.039000+08:00","text":"你就直接回答，主席裁示了，你發現這兩個修憲哪裡不一樣？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:06.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:07.499000+08:00","text":"就你後面的那一段沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:07.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:09.100000+08:00","text":"不是我後面的啦，條文的後面。對。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:10.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:13.102000+08:00","text":"條文中的「檢討國是，提供建言」不一樣了。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:13.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:14.282000+08:00","text":"對，我們在報告裡面都有寫。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:14.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:14.882000+08:00","text":"那個時候修憲是單一政黨過四分之三嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:14.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:15.042000+08:00","text":"有沒有？對。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:15.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:17.544000+08:00","text":"有嘛，2000年的時候單一政黨過四分之三，國民黨是不是也同意刪除後段？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:28.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:31.370000+08:00","text":"會經過這樣的調整，是國民黨當時也同意的。來！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:31.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:57.804000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，幫你回憶一下，第3屆第5次國民大會議事錄當中，原修憲提案第3號修正憲法增修條文第四條條文，進行記名表決，表決結果出席的投票代表293人，當年國民大會的總員額是331位，結果贊成286位，可以說幾乎各黨派一致同意，包括國民黨、民進黨跟新黨，這你瞭解啦，同意嗎？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:57.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:58.865000+08:00","text":"你清楚這段歷史嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:58.865000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:05:59.865000+08:00","text":"我不瞭解當時的表決過程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:59.865000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:00.865000+08:00","text":"但是你知道這是一致通過的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:00.865000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:01.865000+08:00","text":"國民大會已經把這個寫出來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:05:58.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:04.428000+08:00","text":"我告訴你因為本席在那裡，本席的名字在上面，我有上去發言，所以我可以證實這是各黨協商一致同意的經過。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:04.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:19.098000+08:00","text":"好，接下來問為什麼國民大會可以聽取國情報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:19.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:21.200000+08:00","text":"有沒有想過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:21.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:26.427000+08:00","text":"憲法總共175條，有哪個條文說國民大會可以聽取總統的國情報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:26.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:27.228000+08:00","text":"你知不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:27.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:29.911000+08:00","text":"憲法是沒有。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:30.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:35.638000+08:00","text":"完全沒有，憲法本文沒有，那為什麼國民大會修憲的時候要列這個國情報告呢？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:38.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:41.067000+08:00","text":"我73年曾經到國民大會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:41.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:43.548000+08:00","text":"又要開始話說從頭了，我直接告訴你答案好了，聽你講會浪費我時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:43.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:43.988000+08:00","text":"憲法本文第二十七條，國民大會的職權在哪裡？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:43.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:06:47.029000+08:00","text":"選總統、副總統，到了1992年第二次修憲的時候，憲法增修條文第十二條第一項，總統、副總統由中華民國自由地區全體人民直接選舉產生，是不是這樣？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:06:47.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:05.138000+08:00","text":"因為總統直選了，那在直選之後，國民大會要幹嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:05.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:09.421000+08:00","text":"以前直選之前，國民大會6年集會一次，集會幹嘛？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:11.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:11.722000+08:00","text":"選總統！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:11.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:13.703000+08:00","text":"現在總統交給人民選了，國民大會幹嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:14.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:16.264000+08:00","text":"國民大會沒有事情，就怎麼樣？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:17.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:22.308000+08:00","text":"國民大會集會時，每年集會一次，得聽取總統國情報告，並檢討國是，提供建言，因為修憲之後，國民大會沒事幹了，6年改成4年，總統也人民選，他集會幹嘛？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:22.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:23.089000+08:00","text":"只好請總統來報告，得聽取總統國情報告，聽取喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:24.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:24.930000+08:00","text":"你認為是不是這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:41.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:44.768000+08:00","text":"鍾委員的分析非常明確。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:44.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:07:45.709000+08:00","text":"謝謝你的肯定。來！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:07:45.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:08:24.335000+08:00","text":"我再告訴你，1991年第一次修憲的時候，一機關二階段，憲法增修條文第七項前段，還有第三項，你看差別在1992年到2000年，最後很奇怪，到2008年，在國民大會2005年廢掉之後，立法院職權行使法第十五條之四規定，經總統同意時，得綜合再做補充報告，請問一下秘書長，你認為立法委員在自己的行使法當中超越了憲法增修條文的內容，你覺得有沒有擴權之嫌？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:08:25.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:08:28.360000+08:00","text":"因為現行法也通過這麼久了……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:08:29.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:08:29.942000+08:00","text":"現行法是憲法？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:08:30.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:08:35.409000+08:00","text":"不是，立法院職權行使法，那也沒有人去聲請司法院解釋。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:08:35.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:08:38.893000+08:00","text":"你是在暗示我們要提出請司法院釋憲囉？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:08:40.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:08:40.535000+08:00","text":"我倒不是這個意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:08:40.535000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:08:43.426000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:08:43.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:08:52.571000+08:00","text":"我們看下一張，2008年的立法理由說為兼顧憲政精神，引入總統自行同意之設計，爰為第二項規定，有沒有看到？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:08:53.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:08:54.572000+08:00","text":"非憲法義務。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:08:55.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:09:05.017000+08:00","text":"當年立法院訂定職權行使法的時候也說得很清楚，這不是總統的憲法義務，是自己加上去的，看總統高興不高興，他自己決定，很清楚嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:09:05.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:09:07.378000+08:00","text":"連立法委員在通過的時候都很清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:09:07.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:09:11.562000+08:00","text":"往下一條，所以在1991年一機關二階段的時候就是這個過程。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:09:12.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:09:50.987000+08:00","text":"第1屆的老國大通過國會全面改選，交給第2屆來執行相關的修憲，所以我告訴你關鍵在哪裡，看下一頁，甚至國民大會修憲的時候還可以預告修憲，在第2屆修憲的時候，他還說總統、副總統由中華民國自由地區全體人民選舉之，前項的選舉方式，在1992年預告了，到1995年之前，因為那時候國民大會代表任期就屆滿了，由國民大會集會以憲法增修條文定之，請問你所瞭解的，各國的憲法可以在修法的時候也預告未來要修憲嗎？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:09:50.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:09:52.048000+08:00","text":"你有沒有看過這樣的方式？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:09:53.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:09:56.505000+08:00","text":"有沒有看過，預告未來要修憲？沒有。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:09:56.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:10:14.857000+08:00","text":"為什麼要預告修憲，就定出了總統副總統的選舉是相對多數，也是本會委員關心的二輪投票制，在那個時候，國民黨主導的國民大會在1992年預告1995年要修憲，把它定為現在的選舉方式。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:10:16.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:10:40.182000+08:00","text":"所以我們來看一下，總統選舉權換國情報告、司法跟考試同意權，當國民大會把總統選舉權讓渡出來給人民直選的時候，它要了兩個東西，司法院的同意權本來是監察院行使，拿到國民大會來；也把考試院的人事同意權從監察院拿到國民大會來。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:10:40.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:10:43.364000+08:00","text":"所以一次總統直選，國民大會得到三樣東西，考試院的人事同意權、司法院的人事同意權，還有請總統可以來報告國情，這樣瞭解了喔！","quality":0.315},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:10:43.364000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:10:44.364000+08:00","text":"這我不再給你上課，我現在複習歷史。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:10:44.364000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:10:45.364000+08:00","text":"所以即便國情報告、國是建言，也是輪流發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:10:45.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:10:45.669000+08:00","text":"我在1997年那時候為了18歲公民權問了一下，李總統在旁邊有沒有上來回答？","quality":0.448},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:10:46.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:16.390000+08:00","text":"您看李前總統到國民大會去報告國是，聽取建言的時候，有沒有現場回答？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:16.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:19.493000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:19.493000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:20.874000+08:00","text":"但是法條很清楚是綜合答復。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:20.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:21.315000+08:00","text":"我是問你嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:21.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:24.838000+08:00","text":"我說你任職很久，你也知道本席在國民大會，你在立法院嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:25.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:30.303000+08:00","text":"那時候李登輝前總統到國民大會去聽取建言，有回答嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:30.303000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:31.303000+08:00","text":"綜合答復吧。就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:30.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:30.423000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:35.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:44.788000+08:00","text":"本席擔任的4年當中，每次總統來國情報告，聽取建言的時候，他都是聽而已，他沒有回答啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:45.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:11:45.909000+08:00","text":"這樣瞭解了喔！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:11:48.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:03.514000+08:00","text":"所以你的意見我覺得蠻道地的，「委員提案與現行總統國情報告有所不同……與憲法增修條文第四條第三項用語不同」很明顯地，而且你還說其他國家的總統詢答方式尚未見即席詢答。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:04.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:06.198000+08:00","text":"這是你經過比較、研究後的結果吧？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:09.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:11.600000+08:00","text":"我們法制局有給委員……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:12.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:16.482000+08:00","text":"所以你從法制局的研究當中得到這樣的結論？","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:16.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:17.942000+08:00","text":"其實我書裡面都有寫。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:17.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:20.503000+08:00","text":"你的書有寫，很好，我們往下看……","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:20.503000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:21.503000+08:00","text":"我的書有寫。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:21.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:32.326000+08:00","text":"所以從修憲歷程、現行憲法來看，要強制總統報告，憲法增修條文是「得」，總統可以來，他也可以不來，我們改成什麼？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:32.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:32.427000+08:00","text":"我們改成什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:35.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:37.440000+08:00","text":"「應」立法院的邀請，是不是？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:37.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:37.985000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:37.985000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:41.949000+08:00","text":"因為要看第十五條之二……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:41.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:43.210000+08:00","text":"那是職權行使法，不是憲法。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:44.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:55.215000+08:00","text":"好，所以如果今天在野黨包括國民黨，他希望總統要來立法院提出國情報告、聽取建言，那他就要修憲，你認為呢？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:55.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:12:57.056000+08:00","text":"除了修憲有沒有第二條路走？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:12:58.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:03.739000+08:00","text":"我想因為現行條文有明定，所以也沒有到修憲的問題存在……喔！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:04.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:05.420000+08:00","text":"明定就可以不要修憲？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:05.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:06.341000+08:00","text":"那不修憲可以來嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:07.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:14.849000+08:00","text":"以現行我們立法院職權行使法的規定，只要有第十五條之二的那些要件，當然他會來嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:14.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:16.431000+08:00","text":"他可以來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:16.431000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:17.431000+08:00","text":"那就是義務性的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:16.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:19.154000+08:00","text":"但是沒有提到要詢答嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:20.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:20.836000+08:00","text":"詢答是因為……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:20.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:21.437000+08:00","text":"他同意嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:21.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:27.519000+08:00","text":"以現行條文第十五條之四是沒有，但是委員之間如果再提……好啦！","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:27.519000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:28.519000+08:00","text":"不勉強你啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:28.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:31.163000+08:00","text":"如果大家有意見，認為這有違憲，當然就是……","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:31.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:37.732000+08:00","text":"你的意思是說，職權行使法有沒有超越憲法的規定、擴權，因為還沒有人去請求釋憲，所以你也不好專擅。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:37.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:43.200000+08:00","text":"最後我問周秘書長，國會改革除了軟體也需要硬體，立法院擴建進度，這一屆結束前可不可以完成？","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:43.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:44.200000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:43.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:44.300000+08:00","text":"現在本來就有在規劃，因為原來的就我所瞭解有規劃設計費。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:45.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:13:46.161000+08:00","text":"可不可以3個月內提出書面報告？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:13:46.161000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:06.271000+08:00","text":"我只能這樣說明，因為游院長有提到說這一屆繼續，那我大概有初步跟院長報告過，大概因為黨團……因為現在有6個地方嘛。","quality":0.082},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:06.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:12.835000+08:00","text":"主席，我只問他3個月內可不可以提出說明報告，秘書長講了很久沒有講到重點，可不可以？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:12.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:16.317000+08:00","text":"直接回答，我們剛剛已經講一定要直接回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:31.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:35.131000+08:00","text":"不是我不直接回答，因為有6個地方，那我……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:35.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:38.093000+08:00","text":"你是說3個月不夠，要6個月，是不是？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:38.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:40.896000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，鍾委員先聽我報告，因為現在……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:41.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:42.117000+08:00","text":"那不能提書面報告？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:42.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:46.381000+08:00","text":"上一屆、第10屆裡面是有6個地方，這個一定要黨團去……","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:47.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:49.504000+08:00","text":"我只是要你提出書面報告而已耶！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:49.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:50.504000+08:00","text":"如果是報告，我沒有問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:50.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:51.504000+08:00","text":"好，可以啦，謝謝、謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:51.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:52.504000+08:00","text":"報告我們可以請總務處提出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:52.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:53.504000+08:00","text":"謝謝，請回、請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:50.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:14:56.170000+08:00","text":"最後一個問題，吳秘書長，剛剛周秘書長的意思是說，立法院職權行使法有沒有涉及違反憲法增修條文、擴權之嫌，要有人提出、有機關提出釋憲，司法院這邊才會受理，是不是這樣的意思？","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:14:56.170000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:15:17.046000+08:00","text":"你聽他的意思是不是這樣子？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳秘書長三龍","start":"2024-03-21T10:15:17.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:15:27.232000+08:00","text":"我們在這個「說明」裡面有說到，結論是就這個相關議題，本院不便也不宜表示意見。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:15:27.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:15:27.893000+08:00","text":"不便也不宜？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:15:28.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:15:28.773000+08:00","text":"那瞭解了。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-03-21T10:15:29.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:15:37.059000+08:00","text":"本席要告訴你，因為你今天是就國情報告來回應的，本席不會也不能對個案來進行關說，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:15:37.559000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:15:38.559000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:15:38.859000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:15:42.001857+08:00","text":"接下來請羅智強委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}