{"error":false,"id":["150225"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150225,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150225","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T10:43:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T10:56:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc3052ca4c870093958bfb7dd815aba809727bf8ba9b0039caa7a6c617dc67021d5f925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:43:10 - 10:56:02","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請立法院秘書長列席就「中華民國總統至立法院進行國情報告及詢答模式之建議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時43分）謝謝主席。秘書長，那我就直接問了喔！"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝林委員，你好。"],["林委員思銘：今天大家對於憲法增修條文第四條第三項「立法院每年集會時，得聽取總統國情報告」的部分，剛才幾位委員的詢答，各自解讀，我想有人認為總統是不得拒絕，但我剛才聽秘書長回答羅智強委員的時候，你說總統確實不得拒絕，你可以把法源依據講出來嗎？為什麼你認為總統不得拒絕到立法院，如果立法院邀請他來，也經過我們提議，也經過院會決議，他就必須要來，你認為他不得拒絕，但是你剛才回答翁曉玲委員時好像講的態度又很曖昧，那是你回答羅智強委員的才對，還是說你的態度上目前還沒有一個定論？"],["周秘書長萬來：林委員，我這樣報告，因為第十五條之二的設計等於是義務性的設計了，所以他當然一定要來。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我們在研析的時候加上總統不得拒絕，一樣的結果啦！"],["林委員思銘：所以他不得拒絕嘛！即便我們……"],["周秘書長萬來：不是，我們本身這樣的規範，他就一定要來，就是義務性的設計，林委員是學法的，您也知道。"],["林委員思銘：所以他可以耍賴嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：他不能啊！"],["林委員思銘：不能嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：加上總統不得拒絕，也是一樣的結果。"],["林委員思銘：所以你的法源依據就是……"],["周秘書長萬來：但如果他不來，那你又能怎麼樣？"],["林委員思銘：秘書長，剛才因為幾位委員說，這個好像有違憲，說我們依立法院職權行使法邀請他來，他可以不來的意思，就是說職權行使法的規定好像有違憲。所以我想問你，你可以很明確地說出他不得拒絕的法源依據是憲法，還是我們立法院的職權行使法嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為現在憲法、職權行使法都沒有這種規範，所以我剛才才跟林委員報告，這是義務性的設計，在我們第十五條之二有這樣的規定，當然他一定要來……"],["林委員思銘：所以他就有義務要來，要到立法院來做國情報告。"],["周秘書長萬來：如果他不來，我剛才也跟林委員報告，翁委員16人所提的提案，加上總統不得拒絕，我也沒有反對，都尊重你們的意見，我只是說這個寫法裡面到底跟不寫有什麼差異。"],["林委員思銘：所以絕對沒有違憲，反正他不得拒絕，沒有所謂違憲的問題。"],["周秘書長萬來：這是義務性的設計，本來就是……"],["林委員思銘：好，接下來我再請問一下，我國的制度，現在憲法的規定或者是立法院職權行使法的規定，跟您提出給我們參考的兩個美國跟法國的制度相比，他們不一樣的地方在哪裡？"],["周秘書長萬來：跟林委員報告，因為每個國家的憲政文化不一樣，這個只是我們法制局做的一個研析，把各個國家拿來對比，提供參考……"],["林委員思銘：因為時間有限，你告訴我不同之處在哪裡？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為法國是明定在裡面，第十八條明定是這樣的；而美國是他直接國情報告完就離開了，所以我們本身……"],["林委員思銘：好，我告訴你，國情報告的發動權，在美國跟法國都是由總統主動發動的，我看你的附表有這樣寫，而我們立法院職權行使法是立法院可以主動提議，可以邀請他來。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，沒錯。"],["林委員思銘：所以這是兩個不同之處，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對，我有特別這樣寫。"],["林委員思銘：所以我個人就會贊同你剛才提的，其實不管依照我們憲法的規定或者立法院職權行使法的規定，總統完全沒有拒絕的權利，因為我們跟法國不一樣，法國跟美國是可以由總統主動說他要來做國情報告，但我們是可以主動邀請他來，我們多了一項這種權力，所以總統到立法院來報告，如果依照我們立法院的職權行使法，等於是他的一個義務。"],["周秘書長萬來：第十五條之二的規定是義務性設計，他就要來，他一定要來……"],["林委員思銘：他要向人民的國會來負責，這他的義務嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：第二項是他主動，他自己主動，還要立法院同意他才能來。"],["林委員思銘：是啊，才能來。"],["周秘書長萬來：第一項是我們自己……"],["林委員思銘：所以我們的設計跟美國、法國完全是不一樣的。"],["周秘書長萬來：不一樣。"],["林委員思銘：我們國會有主動發動權，只要邀請他來，他就不能抗拒，他必須到人民的國會來向立法院做國情報告，也接受質詢。大家對於到底可不可以質詢總統或者是要採什麼方式一直有意見，民進黨剛才講違憲，也提出很多的看法，這我們表示尊重。我看了一篇報告，這位學者其實也是偏民進黨的，他提出，我國不是採內閣制的國家，非內閣制的國家有質詢制度是不正常的，若是取消質詢制度，臺灣就變成行政與立法分立的國家，但是在還沒有修改制度以前，行政單位還是不能抗拒質詢，而該率領各部會首長備詢的是總統，因為總統才是國家的最高行政首長。為什麼他這樣講？因為我們採雙首長制。剛才翁曉玲委員也提出了很精闢的見解，也提出說我們的總統有非常多的職權，其實修憲之後，現在的行政院長只是總統的幕僚長，有關國家安全的重大方針、大政方針，都是由總統來負責，所以其實率相關部會首長來受質詢的應該是總統，總統不應該躲在背後，才是對人民的國會負責。有人講立法院是人民選出來的，總統也是人民選出來的，但他不用對我們負責，你覺得這樣的講法對嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：以現行增修條文第三條的規定，是行政院向立法院負責，行政院院長是最高行政首長，如果在實務上解釋運作，變成是……現在因為立法院不能對行政院行使同意權，所以行政院院長已經漸漸地變成總統的幕僚長，實務上就變成這種狀況。但憲法規定還是行政院跟立法院負責，這個機制變成要改變。"],["林委員思銘：我要告訴你，其實總統到立法院來做國情報告並接受立法委員質詢，是符合現階段憲政的設計，因為國家大政方針真正的決定權在總統，行政院院長只是他的幕僚長，現在行政院院長的任命根本不用經過立法院同意，也不用經過副署，所以總統才是真正應該要受監督的對象。我覺得這樣的制度設計是依照憲政的精神，總統絕對要到立法院來做國情報告並且接受立法委員質詢。","接下來，我再請教你，憲法增修條文第四條第三項規定，總統必須就國家安全大政方針到立法院來做國情報告。總統國情報告跟行政院院長施政報告主要的不同在哪裡？"],["周秘書長萬來：兩種方針裡面，大政方針的個案跟通案不太一樣，我們長期說國防、外交、兩岸是總統的職權，其他的大概由行政院來，這是外界的分析。"],["林委員思銘：所以你認為他僅就憲法上所規定國防、外交的職權來做國情報告？"],["周秘書長萬來：所以第十五條之二才會寫「國防安全之大政方針」，所以這次我知道……"],["林委員思銘：針對國家安全的大政方針，你可以列舉幾項給大家瞭解嗎？你認為有哪幾項？除了國防、外交，還有什麼是國家安全的大政方針？"],["周秘書長萬來：這裡我要先補充一下大法官陳新民教授所說通案跟個案的差異性，個案大概就變成行政院，他所謂的大政方針是通案的……"],["林委員思銘：我瞭解個案跟通案，但是我現在是問你國家大政，除了我們說總統在憲法上是主責國防、外交，這是他的職權嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["林委員思銘：除了國防、外交以外，如果他來立法院做國情報告，國家安全的大政方針是不是不只限於國防跟外交，還有其他的議題吧？比如少子化的議題，他要不要來報告？這是不是國家安全的大政方針？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個就是……"],["林委員思銘：人口的政策難道不是國安的問題嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我知道委員的提案有擴及到這個……"],["林委員思銘：其他的重大政策、能源政策……"],["周秘書長萬來：對，其他的重大政策。"],["林委員思銘：食安政策、國人健康的問題，難道不涉及國安嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們都充分尊重委員所寫的提案內容，所以我未便表示什麼……"],["林委員思銘：所以我才問您的意見看怎麼樣。"],["周秘書長萬來：這邊我不好……"],["林委員思銘：最後結論，總統是國家元首，行政院院長必須對總統負責。因為我們這次修法也提到總統的國情報告到底要什麼時候來做，我建議他一定要優先於行政院院長，畢竟總統才是真正的一國元首，如果他的國情報告比行政院院長還後面，你認為這樣的順序安排對嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果以我個人意見，這加了第三項，要新任的總統到立法院來的規定，我個人是比較……我現在是講個人意見，我是非常贊同啦！我非常贊同啦！"],["林委員思銘：對啊！所以國情報告優先於行政院長的施政報告。"],["周秘書長萬來：這裡面的情形是……"],["林委員思銘：未來如果我們立法院真的邀請總統來做國情報告，應該是在2月1日我們集會的時候馬上就安排吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個我都尊重啦！我尊重，我沒有特別的看法。"],["林委員思銘：那你的個人意見是怎麼樣？你個人的意見是尊重，那是尊重我的講法，還是你……"],["周秘書長萬來：針對委員所提的提案，大家去……"],["林委員思銘：應該優先於行政院長啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：我未便表示這個情況，因為就是一個建議，給……"],["林委員思銘：這我的建議啦！OK，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。稍後在吳委員思瑤詢答完畢之後，我們就依照先前的宣告處理臨時提案。","接下來請吳委員思瑤進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","羅智強","翁曉玲","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra 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一樣的結果"},{"start":93.351,"end":112.62,"text":"所以他不能拒絕嗎?我們本身這樣的規範他就一定要來就是義務性的設計因為林委員學法知道所以他可以耍賴嗎?他不能啊所以你加上總統不能拒絕也是一樣的結果啦所以你的法源依據就是"},{"start":115.841,"end":140.784,"text":"剛才因為幾位委員他這個講說這個好像有違憲說我們的立法院職權刑事法邀請他來他可以不來的意思就是說他來這個職權刑事法的規定好像有違憲所以我想問你就是說您可以很明確的說出他這個不得拒絕的法源依據是憲法還是我們立法院的職權刑事法"},{"start":141.209,"end":168.584,"text":"因為之前都沒有這麼規劃所以我才剛才跟林委員報告這是義務性的設計吧你在我們第15條之後這樣的規定他來你應該要來所以他如果不來當然我剛才也跟林委員報告歐委員16人所提的這個提案加上總統不得拒絕我也沒有反對都尊重你們的意見我只不過說"},{"start":169.104,"end":170.064,"text":"請問他不一樣的地方在哪裡?"},{"start":198.715,"end":216.161,"text":"因為這一個要跟林委員報告因為每一個國家的憲政的文化不會一樣那這一個只是我們法治局做一個研析把各個國家拿來對比時間有限 您告訴我不同之處在哪裡"},{"start":216.681,"end":217.001,"text":"國情報告的發動權"},{"start":233.885,"end":246.993,"text":"那在美國跟法國他都是由總統主動發動的啦因為看你的副表在那邊那我們的立法院職權刑事法是由立法院可以主動來提議嗎?可以邀請他來嗎?所以這是兩個不同之處嘛對不對?我也特別這樣寫"},{"start":254.537,"end":277.386,"text":"所以我個人就會贊同說您剛才提的啦其實不管依照我們憲法的規定或者立法院執行法的規定總統他完全沒有拒絕的權利因為我們跟法國不一樣法國跟美國他是可以由總統主動來這個講說他要來做國情報告阿那時我們可以主動邀請他來嘛我們多了一項這種權利嘛"},{"start":279.207,"end":302.911,"text":"所以總統到立法院來報告是等於說是他的一個義務嗎如果依照我們立法院的職權形式第15條之後的規定就是他就義務性的設計他就要來負責嘛 對不對他的義務嘛第二項是他主動嘛他自己主動還要立法院同意他才能來是啊才能來嘛 對不對所以我們的設計跟美國法國完全是不一樣嘛"},{"start":303.491,"end":314.207,"text":"我們國會有主動發動權邀請他來他就不能抗拒他必須到人民的國會來向立法院做這個國情的報告也接受質詢"},{"start":316.448,"end":345.681,"text":"那我想這個其實大家一直對於說到底說可不可以質詢這個總統或者是說要採什麼方式那大家一直有意見嘛民進黨剛才講違憲啦這個也提出很多他的一個看法這我們表示尊重其實我看了一篇這個報告這個這位學者他其實也是偏民進黨的他提出啊他說我國呢不是採這個內閣制的國家啦"},{"start":347.082,"end":364.154,"text":"非內閣制的國家有質詢制度是不正常的若是取消質詢制度台灣就變成行政與立法分立的國家但是在還沒有修改制度以前行政單位還是不能抗拒質詢而該率領各部會的首長備詢的是總統"},{"start":368.544,"end":394.124,"text":"因為總統才是國家的最高行政首長為什麼他這樣講因為我們採雙首長制剛才吳小林委員也提出了很精闢的見解也提出說我們的總統有非常多的職權其實現在的行政院長修憲之後行政院長只是我們總統的幕僚長有關國家安全的重大方針"},{"start":395.605,"end":400.891,"text":"大政方針都是由總統來負責所以說其實應該率相關的部會首長來受質詢的應該是總統總統不應該躲在背後才是對我們人民的國會負責"},{"start":417.708,"end":423.089,"text":"如果以現在的徵求條文當然因為我們徵求條文第3條是規定行政院向立法院務責行政院是最高行政所長但如果在實務上的一個解釋的運作"},{"start":444.298,"end":445.96,"text":"實際上在變成行政院長已經漸漸變成總統幕僚長"},{"start":461.144,"end":465.368,"text":"其實總統到立法院來做國情報告並接受立法院的質詢其實正是符合現階段我們憲政的設計因為總統才是真正的"},{"start":481.013,"end":481.193,"text":"林思銘議員"},{"start":497.478,"end":518.509,"text":"所以總統才是真正應該要對受監督的對象所以我們這樣的一個制度的設計我覺得依照憲政的精神總統絕對是要到我們立法院來做國情報告並且接受我們立法院的一個質詢接下來我再請教你"},{"start":519.409,"end":538.743,"text":"我們憲法徵修條文第2條第4項規定的總統必須就國家安全大政方針到立法院來做國情報告那總統的國情報告跟行政院長的施政報告他主要的不同在哪裡"},{"start":540.677,"end":554.406,"text":"他兩種的方針裡面他大致的方針是各案跟通案是不太一樣的那因為我們常期的是說國防外交兩案是由總統的職權那其他的大概由行政院來"},{"start":555.447,"end":578.437,"text":"所以你是認為他只請就憲法上所規定的國防外交的職權來做實證報告所以我們才15條之後才會寫立法院對於行政院的時候第15條之後才會寫國防安全是大政方針所以這次我知道那你認為國家安全的大政方針你可以列舉幾項"},{"start":580.117,"end":580.718,"text":"國防外交及國家安全大政方針"},{"start":588.067,"end":613.494,"text":"這裡我要先補充一下我們一個道豪官他的陳其敏教授所說的通案跟個案的差異性個案的話大概就變成行政院他所謂的大政環境是通案的通案個案我了解但是我現在問你說國家大政除了現在總統我們講說在憲法上他是主責這個國防外交是他的職權"},{"start":614.754,"end":632.417,"text":"對,那除了國防外交以外,我們在如果他來立法院做國情報告,他的國家安全的大政方針是不是不限於只有國防跟外交,還有其他的議題吧?比如說少子化的議題他要不要來做報告?是不是國家安全的大政方針?"},{"start":634.159,"end":638.823,"text":"人口政策難道不是國安的問題嗎?食安政策、國人健康的問題難道不涉及國安嗎?"},{"start":650.976,"end":672.914,"text":"所以這一個裡面就是說委員的提案我們都通過了尊重委員所寫的這一個提案的內容所以我也未必表示什麼所以我在問您的意見看您的意見怎樣好啦我最後結論啦我想我們總統他是國家元首那行政院長他必須對總統負責嘛"},{"start":674.924,"end":698.923,"text":"所以我建議因為我們這次修法也講說總統的國情報告到底要是什麼時候來做我是建議他一定要優先於行政院長畢竟總統才是真正的我們一國的元首如果他的國情報告比行政院長還後面的話你認為這樣子的順序安排對嗎"},{"start":701.397,"end":729.158,"text":"如果以我個人意見我個人意見的情況這個有沒有加了一個第三項新任的總統要到立法院來規定的我個人是比較個人意見我現在講個人意見我是非常贊同的我非常贊同的所以國情報告優先於立法院執政報告這個裡面的一個情形是從未來如果"},{"start":729.878,"end":740.132,"text":"我們立法院真的邀請總統來做國情報告你應該比就在2月1號我們集會的時候馬上就安排吧"},{"start":743.381,"end":760.508,"text":"這一個我都尊重了我尊重我沒有你個人意見是怎樣你還是沒有你個人意見尊重是尊重我的講法我原所提的提案應該優先於行政院長因為我未被人表示這一個情況這是我的建議啦以上謝謝"},{"start":765.849,"end":772.006,"text":"稍後在五委員是要詢答完畢之後我們就依照先前的宣告處理林思銘"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:43:10+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:43:13.075333+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:43:13.075333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:43:16.150667+08:00","text":"秘書長，那我就直接問了喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:43:16.150667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:43:19.226000+08:00","text":"謝謝林委員，你好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:43:19.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:43:58.155000+08:00","text":"今天大家對於憲法增修條文第四條第三項「立法院每年集會時，得聽取總統國情報告」的部分，剛才幾位委員的詢答，各自解讀，我想有人認為總統是不得拒絕，但我剛才聽秘書長回答羅智強委員的時候，你說總統確實不得拒絕，你可以把法源依據講出來嗎？","quality":0.337},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:43:58.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:44:23.606000+08:00","text":"為什麼你認為總統不得拒絕到立法院，如果立法院邀請他來，也經過我們提議，也經過院會決議，他就必須要來，你認為他不得拒絕，但是你剛才回答翁曉玲委員時好像講的態度又很曖昧，那是你回答羅智強委員的才對，還是說你的態度上目前還沒有一個定論？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:44:23.606000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:44:25.178000+08:00","text":"林委員，我這樣報告，因為第十五條之二的設計等於是義務性的設計了，所以他當然一定要來。是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:44:25.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:44:25.479000+08:00","text":"因為我們在研析的時候加上總統不得拒絕，一樣的結果啦！","quality":0.458},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:44:43.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:44:44.972000+08:00","text":"所以他不得拒絕嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:44:44.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:44:45.972000+08:00","text":"即便我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:44:44.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:44:53.296000+08:00","text":"不是，我們本身這樣的規範，他就一定要來，就是義務性的設計，林委員是學法的，您也知道。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:44:53.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:44:56.177000+08:00","text":"所以他可以耍賴嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:44:56.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:44:57.157000+08:00","text":"他不能啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:44:57.157000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:44:58.157000+08:00","text":"不能嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:44:57.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:45:00.479000+08:00","text":"加上總統不得拒絕，也是一樣的結果。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:45:01.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:45:02.600000+08:00","text":"所以你的法源依據就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:45:02.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:45:05.841000+08:00","text":"但如果他不來，那你又能怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:45:05.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:45:20.234000+08:00","text":"秘書長，剛才因為幾位委員說，這個好像有違憲，說我們依立法院職權行使法邀請他來，他可以不來的意思，就是說職權行使法的規定好像有違憲。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:45:20.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:45:30.764000+08:00","text":"所以我想問你，你可以很明確地說出他不得拒絕的法源依據是憲法，還是我們立法院的職權行使法嗎？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:45:31.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:45:44.276000+08:00","text":"因為現在憲法、職權行使法都沒有這種規範，所以我剛才才跟林委員報告，這是義務性的設計，在我們第十五條之二有這樣的規定，當然他一定要來……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:45:44.276000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:45:45.276000+08:00","text":"所以他就有義務要來，要到立法院來做國情報告。","quality":0.15},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:45:44.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:45:58.564000+08:00","text":"如果他不來，我剛才也跟林委員報告，翁委員16人所提的提案，加上總統不得拒絕，我也沒有反對，都尊重你們的意見，我只是說這個寫法裡面到底跟不寫有什麼差異。","quality":0.712},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:45:58.564000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:46:09.348000+08:00","text":"所以絕對沒有違憲，反正他不得拒絕，沒有所謂違憲的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:46:09.348000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:46:20.132000+08:00","text":"這是義務性的設計，本來就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:46:20.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:46:30.916000+08:00","text":"好，接下來我再請問一下，我國的制度，現在憲法的規定或者是立法院職權行使法的規定，跟您提出給我們參考的兩個美國跟法國的制度相比，他們不一樣的地方在哪裡？","quality":0.174},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:46:30.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:46:41.899000+08:00","text":"跟林委員報告，因為每個國家的憲政文化不一樣，這個只是我們法制局做的一個研析，把各個國家拿來對比，提供參考……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:46:43.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:46:46.161000+08:00","text":"因為時間有限，你告訴我不同之處在哪裡？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:46:46.161000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:46:47.161000+08:00","text":"因為法國是明定在裡面，第十八條明定是這樣的；而美國是他直接國情報告完就離開了，所以我們本身……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:46:46.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:47:15.372000+08:00","text":"好，我告訴你，國情報告的發動權，在美國跟法國都是由總統主動發動的，我看你的附表有這樣寫，而我們立法院職權行使法是立法院可以主動提議，可以邀請他來。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:47:15.372000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:47:16.372000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:47:15.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:47:16.312000+08:00","text":"所以這是兩個不同之處，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:47:16.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:47:16.993000+08:00","text":"對，我有特別這樣寫。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:47:24.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:47:55.273000+08:00","text":"所以我個人就會贊同你剛才提的，其實不管依照我們憲法的規定或者立法院職權行使法的規定，總統完全沒有拒絕的權利，因為我們跟法國不一樣，法國跟美國是可以由總統主動說他要來做國情報告，但我們是可以主動邀請他來，我們多了一項這種權力，所以總統到立法院來報告，如果依照我們立法院的職權行使法，等於是他的一個義務。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:47:56.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:48:00.959000+08:00","text":"第十五條之二的規定是義務性設計，他就要來，他一定要來……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:48:00.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:48:02.741000+08:00","text":"他要向人民的國會來負責，這他的義務嘛！","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:48:02.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:48:07.165000+08:00","text":"第二項是他主動，他自己主動，還要立法院同意他才能來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:48:07.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:48:08.046000+08:00","text":"是啊，才能來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:48:08.046000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:48:09.046000+08:00","text":"第一項是我們自己……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:48:08.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:48:12.891000+08:00","text":"所以我們的設計跟美國、法國完全是不一樣的。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:48:12.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:48:13.891000+08:00","text":"不一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:48:13.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:48:24.207000+08:00","text":"我們國會有主動發動權，只要邀請他來，他就不能抗拒，他必須到人民的國會來向立法院做國情報告，也接受質詢。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:48:27.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:48:43.455000+08:00","text":"大家對於到底可不可以質詢總統或者是要採什麼方式一直有意見，民進黨剛才講違憲，也提出很多的看法，這我們表示尊重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:48:44.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:49:22.607000+08:00","text":"我看了一篇報告，這位學者其實也是偏民進黨的，他提出，我國不是採內閣制的國家，非內閣制的國家有質詢制度是不正常的，若是取消質詢制度，臺灣就變成行政與立法分立的國家，但是在還沒有修改制度以前，行政單位還是不能抗拒質詢，而該率領各部會首長備詢的是總統，因為總統才是國家的最高行政首長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:49:22.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:49:23.648000+08:00","text":"為什麼他這樣講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:49:23.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:49:25.049000+08:00","text":"因為我們採雙首長制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:49:25.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:49:50.891000+08:00","text":"剛才翁曉玲委員也提出了很精闢的見解，也提出說我們的總統有非常多的職權，其實修憲之後，現在的行政院長只是總統的幕僚長，有關國家安全的重大方針、大政方針，都是由總統來負責，所以其實率相關部會首長來受質詢的應該是總統，總統不應該躲在背後，才是對人民的國會負責。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:49:50.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:50:07.908000+08:00","text":"有人講立法院是人民選出來的，總統也是人民選出來的，但他不用對我們負責，你覺得這樣的講法對嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:50:07.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:50:35.960000+08:00","text":"以現行增修條文第三條的規定，是行政院向立法院負責，行政院院長是最高行政首長，如果在實務上解釋運作，變成是……現在因為立法院不能對行政院行使同意權，所以行政院院長已經漸漸地變成總統的幕僚長，實務上就變成這種狀況。","quality":0.542},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:50:35.960000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:50:51.144000+08:00","text":"但憲法規定還是行政院跟立法院負責，這個機制變成要改變。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:50:51.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:51:31.760000+08:00","text":"我要告訴你，其實總統到立法院來做國情報告並接受立法委員質詢，是符合現階段憲政的設計，因為國家大政方針真正的決定權在總統，行政院院長只是他的幕僚長，現在行政院院長的任命根本不用經過立法院同意，也不用經過副署，所以總統才是真正應該要受監督的對象。","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:51:32.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:51:47.528000+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣的制度設計是依照憲政的精神，總統絕對要到立法院來做國情報告並且接受立法委員質詢。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:51:47.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:51:59.536000+08:00","text":"接下來，我再請教你，憲法增修條文第四條第三項規定，總統必須就國家安全大政方針到立法院來做國情報告。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:52:00.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:52:08.743000+08:00","text":"總統國情報告跟行政院院長施政報告主要的不同在哪裡？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:52:12.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:52:24.406000+08:00","text":"兩種方針裡面，大政方針的個案跟通案不太一樣，我們長期說國防、外交、兩岸是總統的職權，其他的大概由行政院來，這是外界的分析。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:52:25.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:52:32.090000+08:00","text":"所以你認為他僅就憲法上所規定國防、外交的職權來做國情報告？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:52:32.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:52:44.396000+08:00","text":"所以第十五條之二才會寫「國防安全之大政方針」，所以這次我知道……","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:52:46.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:52:48.437000+08:00","text":"針對國家安全的大政方針，你可以列舉幾項給大家瞭解嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:52:48.437000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:52:50.117000+08:00","text":"你認為有哪幾項？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:52:50.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:52:50.718000+08:00","text":"除了國防、外交，還有什麼是國家安全的大政方針？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:52:58.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:13.411000+08:00","text":"這裡我要先補充一下大法官陳新民教授所說通案跟個案的差異性，個案大概就變成行政院，他所謂的大政方針是通案的……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:13.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:24.754000+08:00","text":"我瞭解個案跟通案，但是我現在是問你國家大政，除了我們說總統在憲法上是主責國防、外交，這是他的職權嘛！對。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:24.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:36.870000+08:00","text":"除了國防、外交以外，如果他來立法院做國情報告，國家安全的大政方針是不是不只限於國防跟外交，還有其他的議題吧？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:37.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:40.375000+08:00","text":"比如少子化的議題，他要不要來報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:40.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:42.417000+08:00","text":"這是不是國家安全的大政方針？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:42.417000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:44.159000+08:00","text":"這個就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:44.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:46.501000+08:00","text":"人口的政策難道不是國安的問題嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:46.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:47.501000+08:00","text":"我知道委員的提案有擴及到這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:47.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:48.501000+08:00","text":"其他的重大政策、能源政策……","quality":0},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:48.501000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:49.501000+08:00","text":"對，其他的重大政策。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:53:46.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:53:48.823000+08:00","text":"食安政策、國人健康的問題，難道不涉及國安嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:54:04.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:54:12.605000+08:00","text":"我們都充分尊重委員所寫的提案內容，所以我未便表示什麼……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:54:12.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:54:15.127000+08:00","text":"所以我才問您的意見看怎麼樣。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:54:15.127000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:54:16.388000+08:00","text":"這邊我不好……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:54:16.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:54:22.894000+08:00","text":"最後結論，總統是國家元首，行政院院長必須對總統負責。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:54:27.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:54:48.923000+08:00","text":"因為我們這次修法也提到總統的國情報告到底要什麼時候來做，我建議他一定要優先於行政院院長，畢竟總統才是真正的一國元首，如果他的國情報告比行政院院長還後面，你認為這樣的順序安排對嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:54:51.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:12.172000+08:00","text":"如果以我個人意見，這加了第三項，要新任的總統到立法院來的規定，我個人是比較……我現在是講個人意見，我是非常贊同啦！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:12.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:13.293000+08:00","text":"我非常贊同啦！對啊！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:13.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:17.216000+08:00","text":"所以國情報告優先於行政院長的施政報告。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:17.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:18.477000+08:00","text":"這裡面的情形是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:18.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:30.112000+08:00","text":"未來如果我們立法院真的邀請總統來做國情報告，應該是在2月1日我們集會的時候馬上就安排吧？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:33.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:34.201000+08:00","text":"這個我都尊重啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:35.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:36.162000+08:00","text":"我尊重，我沒有特別的看法。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:36.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:37.903000+08:00","text":"那你的個人意見是怎麼樣？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:38.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:41.684000+08:00","text":"你個人的意見是尊重，那是尊重我的講法，還是你……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:43.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:44.065000+08:00","text":"針對委員所提的提案，大家去……","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:45.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:46.926000+08:00","text":"應該優先於行政院長啦！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:47.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:49.728000+08:00","text":"我未便表示這個情況，因為就是一個建議，給……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:49.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:50.348000+08:00","text":"這我的建議啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:50.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:50.488000+08:00","text":"OK，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:50.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:55:50.508000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:55:55.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-21T10:56:01.665000+08:00","text":"稍後在吳委員思瑤詢答完畢之後，我們就依照先前的宣告處理臨時提案。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-03-21T10:56:02.165000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-21T10:56:05.879286+08:00","text":"接下來請吳委員思瑤進行詢答。","quality":0.077}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}