{"error":false,"id":["150306"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150306,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150306","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T09:24:21+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T09:32:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:33","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b73a69fd44a96ce990ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6d9871c7ccc3664ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:24:21 - 09:32:54","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":159,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時24分）謝謝主席，我請一下龔主委。"],["主席：請國發會龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：召委好。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委早。不好意思，請忍耐一下，因為我感冒所以聲音有點糟糕。延續剛剛邱志偉委員的提問，針對國發基金你說今年還會再獲利，最少會有兩百多億對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是看起來國發基金主要的獲利來源不外乎是台積電跟陽明海運，而因為陽明海運這兩年的狀況沒有前幾年好，所以陽明海運的獲利情況有一點回檔。主委，我要請教一下，到底國發基金能不能再多做一些什麼，然後創造出更多的不管是就業機會或者是投資機會。我們的準總統賴清德先生說五年內要創造兩萬個新創的就業，每一年要投資1,500億，剛剛我們就想要問，根據你們現在提供的資料，產業創新轉型基金到112年6月底為止，你們只投資了14家公司，總投資金額大概不到50億，占你們匡列的規模1,000億裡面不到5%。請問一下，以你不到5%的投入，如何能夠達到更多的就業機會？或者是如何能夠達到更多的投資機會？國發會會不會認為你們自己在這一塊上面所做的太過於保守、太過於少？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為創新轉型基金只是所有項目的其中一項，它是直接投資裡面的其中一項而已，我們還有透過天使、還有透過跟其它部會、還有透過VC的投資等等的方案……"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道，因為你有很多各種不同的基金嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是你的創業投資轉型基金就編列了1,000億，如果它只是投資其中一項，你覺得可以不用這麼多，那這個基金的規模是不是可以縮小？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：它現在……"],["邱委員議瑩：它從105年創立到現在112年，你們總共也不過才花了49億，到底你們需不需要這麼大的一個基金規模？還是說你可以更積極一點的去做一些投資？剛剛邱志偉委員提到你們天使基金的投資，針對創業天使的投資，我想列一下你們這一些創投超過三年平均有三成都是負值，到底你們有沒有滾動式的去檢討？當然我現在列的是你的報告裡面從編號第一開始，這是從民國75年開始投資的，你現在的創投事業大概有六十幾項，總共六十幾家公司，這些有沒有去滾動式的檢討？還是說你投了之後就一直放在那裡，你有沒有撤出的機制或者是有沒有加碼的機制？有沒有對於你自己的投資去做滾動式的檢討，然後希望能夠創造更多的營收、績效回報，或者是對於這一些公司能夠給它更多的支援？你剛剛講天使基金是在很early stage，你說等到它起來的時候，你可以再加碼，但是它會不會起來你不知道，等到它起來大家都在加碼的時候，你的動作會不會比較慢了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，您剛才講的退場，不同的方案都有退場機制。關於直接投資的部分，事實上我們從過去到現在已經投了一百多家，大概有四十幾家已經退場了。至於投資創投的部分，創投它本來就是有一個週期，通常是七加三，總共是十年，投資期大概是七年，三年就要退場，所以我們資金就會回收，這是投資創投在投新創的部分。天使的部分就是只要是early stage，我們就看看剛開始給它第一桶金，第一桶金它如果營運好的話，在它有上來的情況之下，因為我們是原始股東，所以我們有優先可以認它投資的一些機會，如果說……"],["邱委員議瑩：好，天使基金的投資通常大概多久會檢討一次？多久會看一次？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：那要看不同的公司，因為有不同的公司型態，比如生技產業它可能時間就比較長，有一些電子業它可能就會比較快，所以不同的行業有不同的週期性，我們會觀察它是不是有機會，因為通常天使在early stage投的時候，接下來它就要投A輪、B輪、C輪，有不同的節奏，我們會看看，如果經過審議，覺得它有機會可以big的話，我們當然會支持。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委，我當然希望對於early stage的投資能夠再更積極一點、更鼓勵他們一點。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，這個也是我們的政策，所以我們要求很多我們投的創投都必須要把early stage的比例拉高，這個才是我們的目的，國發基金不是完全為了賺錢。"],["邱委員議瑩：對，沒錯，這個對於他們一種鼓勵，但是我擔心公務單位有時候觀念、思想太過於保守，會很怕人家說你們是圖利、為什麼去投資這家公司等等，所以感覺上你們會有一點縮、會有一點保守，但是這種東西很難講，有些時候被你矇對了，你就創造了一個新的獨角獸、新的事業體。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，謝謝。我也跟同仁講，因為我們有既有機制，同仁只要按照這個既有機制，不要有私心，我們就是照這個機制來做。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委，我接下來要再請教，現在連促轉基金也到你們的門下，所以國發會真的是管很寬、管很大。對於促轉基金的財源，到底你們會怎麼樣妥善地運用？我現在匡了幾個，比如在內政部威權象徵處置計畫裡面，你們的執行率只有79%；在教育部強化高級中等學校以下轉型正義教育事項，你們的執行率是0；衛福部政治暴力創傷知情推廣計畫執行率也是0，這要怎麼解釋，或者是這要怎麼解決？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為這是8月底，很多部會他們……"],["邱委員議瑩：你說是去年的8月底。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，他們後面就會比較積極一點，因為這個資金上的執行，我們國發會比較嫻熟，所以我們執行率稍微高一點，其他的部會因為是第一次，所以我們就是怎麼樣來促成他們的執行率可以提高……"],["邱委員議瑩：你能夠督促它嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：有、有、有。"],["邱委員議瑩：去年8月底的執行情況是這樣，什麼時候結算？今年年初有嗎？還是要等到今年8月才會有今年度的執行情形報告？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：跟委員報告，去年來講，平均的執行大概有到七成多，就是整個平均的期程、平均的執行率。"],["邱委員議瑩：我剛剛點出來的這幾個是我比較關心的，這幾個你們現在的執行率是不是會後能夠給一份比較新的執行進度給我，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，可以，像衛福部已經八成，文化部也八成多，法務部已經九成多，我會後再提供給委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席（邱委員議瑩）：謝謝。","接下來請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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65+08:00","text":"還是說你可以更積極一點的去做一些投資？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:26:58.176565+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:02.409261+08:00","text":"剛剛邱志偉委員提到你們天使基金的投資，針對創業天使的投資，我想列一下你們這一些創投超過三年平均有三成都是負值，到底你們有沒有滾動式的去檢討？","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:02.409261+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:06.641957+08:00","text":"當然我現在列的是你的報告裡面從編號第一開始，這是從民國75年開始投資的，你現在的創投事業大概有六十幾項，總共六十幾家公司，這些有沒有去滾動式的檢討？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:06.641957+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:10.874652+08:00","text":"還是說你投了之後就一直放在那裡，你有沒有撤出的機制或者是有沒有加碼的機制？","quality":0.057},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:10.874652+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:15.107348+08:00","text":"有沒有對於你自己的投資去做滾動式的檢討，然後希望能夠創造更多的營收、績效回報，或者是對於這一些公司能夠給它更多的支援？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:15.107348+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:19.340043+08:00","text":"你剛剛講天使基金是在很early stage，你說等到它起來的時候，你可以再加碼，但是它會不會起來你不知道，等到它起來大家都在加碼的時候，你的動作會不會比較慢了？","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:19.340043+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:23.572739+08:00","text":"報告委員，您剛才講的退場，不同的方案都有退場機制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:23.572739+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:27.805435+08:00","text":"關於直接投資的部分，事實上我們從過去到現在已經投了一百多家，大概有四十幾家已經退場了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:27.805435+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:32.038130+08:00","text":"至於投資創投的部分，創投它本來就是有一個週期，通常是七加三，總共是十年，投資期大概是七年，三年就要退場，所以我們資金就會回收，這是投資創投在投新創的部分。","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:32.038130+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:36.270826+08:00","text":"天使的部分就是只要是early stage，我們就看看剛開始給它第一桶金，第一桶金它如果營運好的話，在它有上來的情況之下，因為我們是原始股東，所以我們有優先可以認它投資的一些機會，如果說……","quality":0.012},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:36.270826+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:40.503522+08:00","text":"好，天使基金的投資通常大概多久會檢討一次？","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:40.503522+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:44.736217+08:00","text":"多久會看一次？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:44.736217+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:48.968913+08:00","text":"那要看不同的公司，因為有不同的公司型態，比如生技產業它可能時間就比較長，有一些電子業它可能就會比較快，所以不同的行業有不同的週期性，我們會觀察它是不是有機會，因為通常天使在early stage投的時候，接下來它就要投A輪、B輪、C輪，有不同的節奏，我們會看看，如果經過審議，覺得它有機會可以big的話，我們當然會支持。","quality":0.007},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:48.968913+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:53.201609+08:00","text":"主委，我當然希望對於early stage的投資能夠再更積極一點、更鼓勵他們一點。","quality":0.027},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:53.201609+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:27:57.434304+08:00","text":"是，這個也是我們的政策，所以我們要求很多我們投的創投都必須要把early stage的比例拉高，這個才是我們的目的，國發基金不是完全為了賺錢。","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:27:57.434304+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:28:01.667000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯，這個對於他們一種鼓勵，但是我擔心公務單位有時候觀念、思想太過於保守，會很怕人家說你們是圖利、為什麼去投資這家公司等等，所以感覺上你們會有一點縮、會有一點保守，但是這種東西很難講，有些時候被你矇對了，你就創造了一個新的獨角獸、新的事業體。","quality":0.018},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:28:01.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-25T09:28:01.748000+08:00","text":"報告委員，謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:28:01.748000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:30:59.664000+08:00","text":"我也跟同仁講，因為我們有既有機制，同仁只要按照這個既有機制，不要有私心，我們就是照這個機制來做。","quality":0.093},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:30:59.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-25T09:31:10.733000+08:00","text":"主委，我接下來要再請教，現在連促轉基金也到你們的門下，所以國發會真的是管很寬、管很大。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:31:12.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-25T09:31:16.818000+08:00","text":"對於促轉基金的財源，到底你們會怎麼樣妥善地運用？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:31:17.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-25T09:31:43.268000+08:00","text":"我現在匡了幾個，比如在內政部威權象徵處置計畫裡面，你們的執行率只有79%；在教育部強化高級中等學校以下轉型正義教育事項，你們的執行率是0；衛福部政治暴力創傷知情推廣計畫執行率也是0，這要怎麼解釋，或者是這要怎麼解決？","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:31:43.268000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:31:49.074800+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為這是8月底，很多部會他們……","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:31:49.074800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:31:54.881600+08:00","text":"你說是去年的8月底。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:31:54.881600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:00.688400+08:00","text":"對，他們後面就會比較積極一點，因為這個資金上的執行，我們國發會比較嫻熟，所以我們執行率稍微高一點，其他的部會因為是第一次，所以我們就是怎麼樣來促成他們的執行率可以提高……","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:00.688400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:06.495200+08:00","text":"你能夠督促它嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:06.495200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:12.302000+08:00","text":"有、有、有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:12.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:13.103000+08:00","text":"去年8月底的執行情況是這樣，什麼時候結算？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:13.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:14.924000+08:00","text":"今年年初有嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:14.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:18.967000+08:00","text":"還是要等到今年8月才會有今年度的執行情形報告？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:19.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:25.953000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，去年來講，平均的執行大概有到七成多，就是整個平均的期程、平均的執行率。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:26.453000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:41.024429+08:00","text":"我剛剛點出來的這幾個是我比較關心的，這幾個你們現在的執行率是不是會後能夠給一份比較新的執行進度給我，好不好？","quality":0.02},{"speaker":"龔主任委員明鑫","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:41.324429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:51.324429+08:00","text":"是，可以，像衛福部已經八成，文化部也八成多，法務部已經九成多，我會後再提供給委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:51.624429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:53.053000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（邱委員議瑩）","start":"2024-03-25T09:32:53.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-03-25T09:32:56.495857+08:00","text":"接下來請張啓楷委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}