{"error":false,"id":["151283"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151283,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151283","日期":"2024-04-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-17T11:44:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-17T11:55:04+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:34","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016274bef1c3e3c69d494068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c94f4d63c271f6545ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:44:30 - 11:55:04","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":290,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時44分）請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。部長，你有沒有看過捍衛戰士（Top Gun）這個電影？"],["邱部長國正：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：你沒有看過喔！所以你大概也不太認識裡面的主角湯姆克魯斯。"],["邱部長國正：主角我認得啊！"],["洪委員申翰：認得喔？"],["邱部長國正：因為電影明星嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：電影明星認得嘛？"],["邱部長國正：對，對。"],["洪委員申翰：這是一部很有名的電影。就你知道，他當然是一個飛行員，那他是不是隸屬於空軍？這個部長知道嗎？"],["邱部長國正：這我概略了解，就是他在訓練過程當中，有譜出一些故事來，但我沒有整個電影去看完啦！沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：好。他在電影裡面是隸屬於海軍陸戰隊的航空隊。因為美國海軍其實對於飛行的機組員非常地重視，他們雖然不是跟空軍來借調，所以它也不是任務編組，它其實是一個專責部隊專屬的官科。當然這專屬官科比較能夠藉由一個培訓或升遷的管道，來吸引年輕人加入，因為其實人才非常非常關鍵。所以今天，部長，我是要跟你來討論一下關於無人機打、裝、編、訓的相關工作。","部長，之前你們在無人機專案的報告裡面其實有寫出來，你們大概分了3個層級，包括聯戰層級、戰術層級跟戰鬥層級。聯戰層級的導控距離比較遠，150公里以上，配置的軍種是空軍跟海軍；戰術是20到150公里，是在三軍各部隊；戰鬥是20公里以下，那是各基層部隊。部長，以我們聯戰層級為例的話，我們跟美軍買4架MQ-9B的「海上衛士」大型無人機，其實我們的金額很高，大概兩百多億元，預計在2026年接裝。部長我想問，未來聯戰層級的大型無人機的機組員會是什麼官科跟軍階？"],["邱部長國正：空軍講一下。"],["曹參謀長進平：委員好，我是空軍參謀長曹進平。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["曹參謀長進平：因為空軍是沒有官科的分別，是以專長來區分你操作的類型……"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們無人機的部分，即便是一個大型無人機，不會有專屬的官科跟軍階？"],["曹參謀長進平：因為空軍本來就沒有官科的設置，但是會以專長的方式來編制。"],["洪委員申翰：是專長，是不是？"],["曹參謀長進平：所以會有專責編組。"],["洪委員申翰：這些無人機會怎麼來編組？"],["曹參謀長進平：我們未來有一個部隊，它專門在負責這個無人機的操作，包括它的情傳、網路所有資料的蒐集跟維護，都是專責單位。"],["洪委員申翰：是專責單位來處理是不是？"],["曹參謀長進平：是專責單位，對。"],["洪委員申翰：他們沒有自己升遷上面的官科？沒有？"],["曹參謀長進平：在空軍沒有官科的區別，但是他的升遷都是會很順暢，不會有阻礙。"],["洪委員申翰：OK。"],["曹參謀長進平：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們之前看到，我知道對你們來說，其實在基層部隊的小型無人機的部分，大概你們會把它當作有點像是一般的步兵、裝甲兵那些延伸的裝備再去處理。目前為止，我其實想要提醒一個事情是，現在在大型無人機的機組員上面，包括不管是聯戰層級跟戰術層級，我們在他們升遷的規劃上面，不要落入過去可能它只是一個任務編組的狀況，因為這其實會影響很多，他可能對這個事情有專業，可是他可能一去飛了無人機以後，他離開自己本身部隊的時候，他就會遇到外職斷資的狀況，可能會影響很多人，其實不願意投入到這裡面；或者是他其實曾經投入到他過去的升遷管道上面出問題；或相比於其他同一期的人來說，他其實就會有一個落差。甚至他在退伍以後，或者是他比較寧願選擇退伍來去像無人機的部隊。","所以其實是有不少人來跟我們建議或提醒，對於無人機未來怎麼編組，尤其是有沒有一個專責、專屬的單位，來去作為升遷的管道，這部分很重要。部長，這部分也希望你們接下來可以多留意，可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：可以。跟委員報告，有一些操作可能是某一項職務他具備了專長，這個職務完了以後，他就換到另外地方去。我不能講跟升遷完全無關，但有的單位需要專業人員，譬如剛剛空軍所講的，他雖然沒有官科，但如果有具備飛行經驗的人來操作的話，那就更好。不同的人到這個單位以後，他將來的發展也不一樣，我想在這個過程當中都可以再來調整，基本上我們要先界定，這個單位是一直在那邊飛無人機的，那這就是一個專業單位。假如不是，就部分人，等於他占這個缺，你是步槍兵、你是搜索兵，你就要操作無人機，那這個就跟他的職務將來升遷沒有關係。"],["洪委員申翰：對，但是我的意思是說，他可能到這個專屬的單位上面去，在這個專屬單位上面，我覺得我們要幫他設計升遷的職級。"],["邱部長國正：對，是。"],["洪委員申翰：他有明確的升遷職級的出路，我們才能夠包括對於這個單位進行績效的管考，其實這跟我們後面的一些相關無人機建軍的工作上可能是很關鍵，不只是設備買進來，這部分是我想要提醒部長的事情。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["洪委員申翰：第二個是，我必須說，我們剛才前面進行機密報告，當然我們尊重召委有排機密專報的權利，但是坦白說，我剛才聽到機密專報裡面，我覺得有點小小的complain，說這個機密不夠機密，這機密專報裡面的內容都是在媒體上面看得到的。","認真說，當在我們國防外交委員會裡面，其實之前洩密的司法案件的疑雲還沒有得到釐清，也包括我們在國會改革裡面，對於洩密相關的機制可能還沒有建立夠完全的狀況之下，我完全可以理解。到底今天在這機密專報裡面要放入多少的資訊，我完全可以理解這件事情。","所以我希望，剛剛不管大家提到黃曙光這個的問題，假如有弊案，該查清楚就查清楚，我覺得這完全沒有問題。趕快查！包括部長應該都支持把大家有疑問的部分，趕快查，這沒有問題吧？對不對？"],["邱部長國正：這應該的啊！既然有疑問嘛！我們就要有個交代嘛！但這交代我們跟委員報告的……"],["洪委員申翰：對，但我覺得該對於過去有貢獻的人……"],["邱部長國正：那當然！我們不能否定。"],["洪委員申翰：對過去有貢獻的人應該要給予肯定。"],["邱部長國正：對，對，我們不會否定他。"],["洪委員申翰：尤其這是一件非常非常艱難的任務，甚至國際上面都不看好的任務。我想大家都知道，臺灣要做這件事情是非常非常困難的。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["洪委員申翰：在這麼困難，包括對岸在技術上面、各種透過外交力量的封鎖，我們能夠有突破，這個突破是來自於這裡面，我想不只是黃曙光，包括海發中心、包括台船，大家做了這麼多的努力。我明確地說，我覺得這個努力不應該被各種方式去踐踏。該釐清，我們就把它釐清。但對於怎麼樣能夠把洩密的問題，或者是機密防制的問題建立好，我覺得這個我們必須建立好。","所以部長，當然也許你接下來的任期還剩一個月，我們大家都知道，也許還剩一個月，但我還是希望說我們可以再勉勵我們自己的國軍同仁，包括國防部的同仁，在這麼困難的工作裡面，還是願意……不然我說實話，以後沒有人願意為國家做困難的事情。如果為國家做困難的事情都要遭受到這種貼標籤，甚至這麼多捕風捉影的指責的話，我覺得真的沒有人願意做。今天在委員會，我們還是必須把這個話給講出來，謝謝！"],["邱部長國正：是。謝謝委員，委員講得很對。有些事情我們沒辦法去改變它，但我們要改變我們自己去調適它，不是一味地依從。事實上，剛剛委員也點出幾個問題來。你講機密、非機密，假如不講，人家說「外面都有，那還叫什麼機密？」但不一樣哦！媒體報導跟我們講出來就不一樣了哦！為什麼有些報紙出來以後，它就追著我們國防單位這些有關的人員去追問啊！因為從你口裡面講出來的，跟媒體上看到的，不一樣的。所以我們這裡面該拿捏，還是要拿捏，委員該問，一定可以問，但我們要跟委員報告，有些很機敏的，我們一定是派人到委員那裡去單獨做說明……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，從立法院的角度來說，當然我們希望知道更多的資訊、更完整的資訊，有助於監督，這沒有問題，但怎麼在取得機密資訊以後，我們怎麼樣防範它外洩的機制。坦白說，我自己身為一個立法委員，也覺得這部分立法院有責任把機制給建立完備，這也有助於未來我們怎麼樣跟國防部可以再了解到更完整的資訊，包括機密資訊的時候，大家都可以有一個在機制上面的信任感，我覺得我們比較是從這個角度去想這個事情。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["洪委員申翰：而不一定只是一味地說你給的資料不夠機密。假如自己立法院內部的機密管控的機制做得不到位的時候，大家信任感也都會怕怕的，這完全可以理解的事情。所以我們還是希望說，剛才講到今天國艦國造的問題，還是希望接下來我們的國防部，或者是我們的相關單位能夠繼續勇於任事啦！"],["邱部長國正：了解。"],["洪委員申翰：不要被這些大大小小、外面的，可能不實、可能捕風捉影的狀況給嚇退了，或者是給挫折了，這不是大家希望的事情。以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.45284375,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.68471875,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.03784375,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.544093750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.62846875,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.387843750000002,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.450968750000001,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.94034375,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.24784375,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.762218750000002,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.4034687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gun的這個電影沒有你沒有看過那所以你大概也不太認識這個裡面的這個主角湯姆克魯斯"},{"start":26.877,"end":48.83,"text":"主角我認得因為電影明星嘛這是一部很有名的電影就你知道他當然是一個飛行員但是他是不是隸屬於空軍這個部長知道嗎?我概略了解就他在訓練過程當中有補出一些故事但我沒有整個電影去看完他當然在電影裡面是一個他是隸屬於海軍陸戰隊的航空隊"},{"start":56.704,"end":72.204,"text":"那這個因為美國海軍其實他對於這個飛行的機組也非常的重視所以他們雖然不是這個跟空軍來借調所以他也不是任務編組他其實是一個專責部隊的專屬的官科那當然這專屬官科比較能夠"},{"start":72.805,"end":72.965,"text":"主席"},{"start":92.785,"end":101.072,"text":"其實你們大概分了三個層級一個包括連戰層級戰術層級跟戰鬥層級連戰層級它的導控距離比較遠150公里以上那配置的軍種是空軍跟海軍戰術是20到150公里是在三軍各部隊那戰鬥是20公里以下那是各基層部隊"},{"start":112.284,"end":131.134,"text":"那部長這個以我們聯戰成績為例的話我們跟美軍買4架的這個MQ-9B的這個海上衛士的大型的無人機其實我們的金額很高大概200多億元預計在2026年接裝那部長我想問未來這個聯戰成績的這個大型無人機的機組員會是什麼官科跟軍艦"},{"start":138.822,"end":158.24,"text":"委員好我是空軍參謀長曹敬平因為空軍是沒有官科的分別是以專長來區分你的這個操作的類型所以我們無人機的部分不會進尤其即便是一個大型無人機不會有專屬的官科跟軍階因為空軍本來就沒有官科的設置但是會以專長的方式來編組所以會有專責編組那這些無人機會怎麼來編組"},{"start":162.661,"end":182.702,"text":"我們未來有一個部隊他專門在負責這個無人機的操作包括他的勤船網路的所有資料收集跟維護都是專責單位是專責單位來處理是不是是專責單位那他們沒有自己的升遷上面的官科沒有在空軍沒有官科的區別但是他的升遷都是很順暢不會有阻礙"},{"start":186.209,"end":205.858,"text":"OK 這個我們之前其實看到其實我知道對你們來說其實在基層部隊的小型無人機的部分大概你們會把它當作有點像是一般的步兵裝甲兵的一些延伸的裝備再去處理那目前為止我其實是想要提醒一個事情是說"},{"start":207.158,"end":232.478,"text":"現在在這個大型無人機的機組員上面包括不管是連戰成績跟戰術成績我們在他們升遷的規劃上面是不要只是落入過去其實可能他只是一個任務編組的這種狀況因為這其實會影響很多其實他可能對這個事情有專業可是他可能一去飛無人機以後他離開他自己本身的這個部隊的時候他就會遇到這個"},{"start":234.019,"end":249.104,"text":"﹗"},{"start":249.224,"end":276.602,"text":"或者是他比較願意寧願選擇退伍來去向無人機的部隊所以其實是有不少人來跟我們建議或來提醒對於無人機未來怎麼編組尤其是他有沒有一個專責專屬的單位然後來去做他升遷的管道這部分很重要部長這部分也希望你們接下來可以多留意可以嗎我可以各位委員報告有一些這個操作他可能是某樣職務他具備的專長"},{"start":279.464,"end":300.926,"text":"那這個職務他完了以後他就換到另外的地方去我其實講說我不能講跟升遷完全無關但有單位他要專業人員比如剛剛空軍所講的他雖然沒有官科但有具備非常經驗的人如果來操作的話那就更好但是不同的人到這個單位以後他將來的發展也就不一樣"},{"start":301.727,"end":304.068,"text":"對,但是我的意思是說他其實可能到這個專屬的單位上面去"},{"start":326.152,"end":352.76,"text":"在這個專屬單位上面我覺得我們要幫他設計他的升遷的值級他有明確的升遷值級的出路我們才能夠包括對這個單位進行績效的管考其實這跟我們後面的一些相關這無人機的建軍的工作上其實可能是很關鍵不只是設備買進來了這部分是我想要提醒這個部長的事情那第二個是說剛才當然我必須說我們剛才前面進行這個機密報告"},{"start":356.076,"end":377.666,"text":"當然我說我們尊重召委當然有排機密專報的權利但是坦白說我剛剛聽到說這個機密專報裡面剛剛我們有幾位委員又在我覺得有點小小complain說這個機密不夠機密這機密專報裡面的內容都是在媒體上面看得到的認真說"},{"start":380.21,"end":405.621,"text":"當在我們國防外交委員會裡面其實之前這個洩密的司法案件的這個疑雲還沒有得到成立清那也包括我們其實在這個這個國會改革裡面對洩密相關的機制可能還沒有建立夠完全的狀況之下我完全可以理解其實到底我今天在這機密專報裡面要放入多少的資訊我完全可以理解這件事情"},{"start":406.301,"end":419.426,"text":"所以我其實是希望說,剛剛不管大家提到黃曙光這個的問題,假如有弊案該查清楚就查清楚,我覺得這完全沒有問題。"},{"start":421.107,"end":445.745,"text":"趕快查包括我想部長應該都支持吧這些相關的假如大家有疑問的部分趕快查就這沒有問題吧對不對這應該的啊既然有疑問嘛我們就要有個交代嘛對但我覺得該對於過去有貢獻的人對過去有貢獻的人應該要給予肯定對對我們不會否定他尤其這是一件非常非常艱難的任務甚至國際上面都不看好的任務"},{"start":447.93,"end":476.502,"text":"我想大家都知道我們要做臺灣做自己這個這件事情是非常非常困難的在這麼困難包括各種包括對岸上面在技術上面各種透過外交力量的封鎖上面我們能夠有突破這個突破是來自於這裡面我想不只是黃曙光包括海發中心包括臺船大家做了這麼多的努力我明確的說我覺得這個努力不應該被各種方式去踐踏該釐清我們把它釐清"},{"start":477.878,"end":492.769,"text":"但對於怎麼樣能夠把這個洩密的問題或者是這個機密防制的這個問題我們把它建立好我覺得我們必須建立好所以部長當然也許你接下來的任期還剩一個月我們大家都知道也許還剩一個月但"},{"start":493.67,"end":509.026,"text":"我覺得我還是希望說我們在可以勉勵我們自己的國軍的同仁包括國防部的同仁在這麼困難的工作裡面還是願意不然我說實話以後沒有人願意為國家做困難的事情如果為國家做困難的事情都要遭受到這種貼標籤甚至"},{"start":511.408,"end":515.891,"text":"有些事情我沒辦法去改變他但我要改變我自己去調適他不是一輩子的一寵事實上剛剛委員也點出幾個問題來"},{"start":531.007,"end":554.609,"text":"你講機密非機密不講外面都有還叫什麼機密但不一樣哦媒體報跟我們講出來就不一樣囉為什麼有些報紙出來以後他就追了就追了我們就國防單位的這些這些這個有關的人員去追問啊從你口裡講出來的跟媒體看到的不一樣的"},{"start":555.35,"end":575.782,"text":"所以我們這一份該拿捏還要拿捏委員該問一定可以問但我們要跟委員報有些很機密的我們一直派人到委員會去單獨做說明從立法院的角度來說當然我們希望知道更多的資訊更完整的資訊有助於監督這沒有問題但怎麼在取得機密資訊以後"},{"start":576.963,"end":580.484,"text":"對於未來我們怎麼樣跟國防部可以再瞭解到更完整的資訊包括機密資訊的時候大家都可以有一個在機制上面的信任感我覺得我們要從這個角度去想這個事情"},{"start":597.668,"end":619.995,"text":"而不一定只是因為說你給的資料不夠機密我覺得這樣講假如自己立法院內部的這個機密管控的機制做得不到位的時候大家信任感也都會怕怕的這完全可以理解的質疑所以我們還是希望說剛剛講到今天這個國艦國造的問題還是希望接下來我們的國防部或者是我們的相關單位"},{"start":621.095,"end":622.256,"text":"這不是大家希望的事情以上 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:30.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:44:30.612000+08:00","text":"請邱部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:30.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:44:30.652000+08:00","text":"請邱部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:30.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:44:30.672000+08:00","text":"洪委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:30.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:44:30.712000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:30.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:44:31.532000+08:00","text":"部長，你有沒有看過捍衛戰士（Top Gun）這個電影？沒有。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:31.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:44:31.792000+08:00","text":"你沒有看過喔！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:31.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:44:32.373000+08:00","text":"所以你大概也不太認識裡面的主角湯姆克魯斯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:56.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:44:57.998000+08:00","text":"主角我認得啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:57.998000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:44:58.998000+08:00","text":"認得喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:44:58.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:45:00.819000+08:00","text":"因為電影明星嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:45:00.819000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:45:02.260000+08:00","text":"電影明星認得嘛？對，對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:45:02.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:45:03.161000+08:00","text":"這是一部很有名的電影。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:45:03.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:45:07.743000+08:00","text":"就你知道，他當然是一個飛行員，那他是不是隸屬於空軍？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:45:07.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:45:08.704000+08:00","text":"這個部長知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:45:08.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:45:15.368000+08:00","text":"這我概略了解，就是他在訓練過程當中，有譜出一些故事來，但我沒有整個電影去看完啦！沒有。好。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:45:16.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:45:18.830000+08:00","text":"他在電影裡面是隸屬於海軍陸戰隊的航空隊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:45:27.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:45:39.581000+08:00","text":"因為美國海軍其實對於飛行的機組員非常地重視，他們雖然不是跟空軍來借調，所以它也不是任務編組，它其實是一個專責部隊專屬的官科。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:45:41.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:46:02.965000+08:00","text":"當然這專屬官科比較能夠藉由一個培訓或升遷的管道，來吸引年輕人加入，因為其實人才非常非常關鍵。","quality":0.302},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:46:02.965000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:46:03.965000+08:00","text":"所以今天，部長，我是要跟你來討論一下關於無人機打、裝、編、訓的相關工作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:46:02.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:46:04.727000+08:00","text":"部長，之前你們在無人機專案的報告裡面其實有寫出來，你們大概分了3個層級，包括聯戰層級、戰術層級跟戰鬥層級。","quality":0.489},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:46:04.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:46:11.072000+08:00","text":"聯戰層級的導控距離比較遠，150公里以上，配置的軍種是空軍跟海軍；戰術是20到150公里，是在三軍各部隊；戰鬥是20公里以下，那是各基層部隊。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:46:22.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:46:39.033000+08:00","text":"部長，以我們聯戰層級為例的話，我們跟美軍買4架MQ-9B的「海上衛士」大型無人機，其實我們的金額很高，大概兩百多億元，預計在2026年接裝。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:46:39.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:46:41.134000+08:00","text":"部長我想問，未來聯戰層級的大型無人機的機組員會是什麼官科跟軍階？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:46:41.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:46:48.822000+08:00","text":"空軍講一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"曹參謀長進平","start":"2024-04-17T11:46:48.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:46:50.764000+08:00","text":"委員好，我是空軍參謀長曹進平。是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"曹參謀長進平","start":"2024-04-17T11:46:51.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:46:57.730000+08:00","text":"因為空軍是沒有官科的分別，是以專長來區分你操作的類型……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:46:57.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:03.215000+08:00","text":"所以我們無人機的部分，即便是一個大型無人機，不會有專屬的官科跟軍階？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曹參謀長進平","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:03.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:07.459000+08:00","text":"因為空軍本來就沒有官科的設置，但是會以專長的方式來編制。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:07.459000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:08.459000+08:00","text":"是專長，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"曹參謀長進平","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:07.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:07.780000+08:00","text":"所以會有專責編組。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:07.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:08.240000+08:00","text":"這些無人機會怎麼來編組？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曹參謀長進平","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:12.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:22.111000+08:00","text":"我們未來有一個部隊，它專門在負責這個無人機的操作，包括它的情傳、網路所有資料的蒐集跟維護，都是專責單位。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:22.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:24.614000+08:00","text":"是專責單位來處理是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曹參謀長進平","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:24.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:24.914000+08:00","text":"是專責單位，對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:25.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:28.297000+08:00","text":"他們沒有自己升遷上面的官科？沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"曹參謀長進平","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:29.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:36.530000+08:00","text":"在空軍沒有官科的區別，但是他的升遷都是會很順暢，不會有阻礙。OK。是。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:37.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:47:50.215000+08:00","text":"部長，我們之前看到，我知道對你們來說，其實在基層部隊的小型無人機的部分，大概你們會把它當作有點像是一般的步兵、裝甲兵那些延伸的裝備再去處理。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:47:52.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:48:22.478000+08:00","text":"目前為止，我其實想要提醒一個事情是，現在在大型無人機的機組員上面，包括不管是聯戰層級跟戰術層級，我們在他們升遷的規劃上面，不要落入過去可能它只是一個任務編組的狀況，因為這其實會影響很多，他可能對這個事情有專業，可是他可能一去飛了無人機以後，他離開自己本身部隊的時候，他就會遇到外職斷資的狀況，可能會影響很多人，其實不願意投入到這裡面；或者是他其實曾經投入到他過去的升遷管道上面出問題；或相比於其他同一期的人來說，他其實就會有一個落差。","quality":0.612},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:48:39.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:48:43.447000+08:00","text":"甚至他在退伍以後，或者是他比較寧願選擇退伍來去像無人機的部隊。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:48:43.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:48:57.356000+08:00","text":"所以其實是有不少人來跟我們建議或提醒，對於無人機未來怎麼編組，尤其是有沒有一個專責、專屬的單位，來去作為升遷的管道，這部分很重要。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:48:57.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:49:00.919000+08:00","text":"部長，這部分也希望你們接下來可以多留意，可以嗎？可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:49:01.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:49:12.548000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有一些操作可能是某一項職務他具備了專長，這個職務完了以後，他就換到另外地方去。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:49:14.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:49:25.741000+08:00","text":"我不能講跟升遷完全無關，但有的單位需要專業人員，譬如剛剛空軍所講的，他雖然沒有官科，但如果有具備飛行經驗的人來操作的話，那就更好。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:49:25.741000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:49:28.734000+08:00","text":"不同的人到這個單位以後，他將來的發展也不一樣，我想在這個過程當中都可以再來調整，基本上我們要先界定，這個單位是一直在那邊飛無人機的，那這就是一個專業單位。","quality":0.296},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:49:28.734000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:49:31.727000+08:00","text":"假如不是，就部分人，等於他占這個缺，你是步槍兵、你是搜索兵，你就要操作無人機，那這個就跟他的職務將來升遷沒有關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:49:31.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:50:01.494000+08:00","text":"對，但是我的意思是說，他可能到這個專屬的單位上面去，在這個專屬單位上面，我覺得我們要幫他設計升遷的職級。對，是。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:50:01.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:50:18.139000+08:00","text":"他有明確的升遷職級的出路，我們才能夠包括對於這個單位進行績效的管考，其實這跟我們後面的一些相關無人機建軍的工作上可能是很關鍵，不只是設備買進來，這部分是我想要提醒部長的事情。是。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:50:19.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:50:46.325000+08:00","text":"第二個是，我必須說，我們剛才前面進行機密報告，當然我們尊重召委有排機密專報的權利，但是坦白說，我剛才聽到機密專報裡面，我覺得有點小小的complain，說這個機密不夠機密，這機密專報裡面的內容都是在媒體上面看得到的。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:50:47.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:10.058000+08:00","text":"認真說，當在我們國防外交委員會裡面，其實之前洩密的司法案件的疑雲還沒有得到釐清，也包括我們在國會改革裡面，對於洩密相關的機制可能還沒有建立夠完全的狀況之下，我完全可以理解。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:11.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:15.601000+08:00","text":"到底今天在這機密專報裡面要放入多少的資訊，我完全可以理解這件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:16.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:29.426000+08:00","text":"所以我希望，剛剛不管大家提到黃曙光這個的問題，假如有弊案，該查清楚就查清楚，我覺得這完全沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:31.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:31.267000+08:00","text":"趕快查！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:31.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:36.871000+08:00","text":"包括部長應該都支持把大家有疑問的部分，趕快查，這沒有問題吧？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:37.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:37.191000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:37.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:38.092000+08:00","text":"這應該的啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:38.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:39.173000+08:00","text":"既然有疑問嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:39.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:40.574000+08:00","text":"我們就要有個交代嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:40.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:41.574000+08:00","text":"但這交代我們跟委員報告的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:41.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:44.577000+08:00","text":"對，但我覺得該對於過去有貢獻的人……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:44.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:45.677500+08:00","text":"那當然！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:45.677500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:46.778000+08:00","text":"我們不能否定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:46.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:49.580000+08:00","text":"對過去有貢獻的人應該要給予肯定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:50.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:51.221000+08:00","text":"對，對，我們不會否定他。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:51.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:51:55.745000+08:00","text":"尤其這是一件非常非常艱難的任務，甚至國際上面都不看好的任務。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:51:57.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:52:02.692000+08:00","text":"我想大家都知道，臺灣要做這件事情是非常非常困難的。是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:52:03.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:52:20.379000+08:00","text":"在這麼困難，包括對岸在技術上面、各種透過外交力量的封鎖，我們能夠有突破，這個突破是來自於這裡面，我想不只是黃曙光，包括海發中心、包括台船，大家做了這麼多的努力。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:52:21.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:52:25.001000+08:00","text":"我明確地說，我覺得這個努力不應該被各種方式去踐踏。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:52:25.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:52:26.482000+08:00","text":"該釐清，我們就把它釐清。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:52:27.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:52:36.224000+08:00","text":"但對於怎麼樣能夠把洩密的問題，或者是機密防制的問題建立好，我覺得這個我們必須建立好。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:52:36.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:52:55.522000+08:00","text":"所以部長，當然也許你接下來的任期還剩一個月，我們大家都知道，也許還剩一個月，但我還是希望說我們可以再勉勵我們自己的國軍同仁，包括國防部的同仁，在這麼困難的工作裡面，還是願意……不然我說實話，以後沒有人願意為國家做困難的事情。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:52:56.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:52:59.006000+08:00","text":"如果為國家做困難的事情都要遭受到這種貼標籤，甚至這麼多捕風捉影的指責的話，我覺得真的沒有人願意做。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:52:59.006000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:00.207000+08:00","text":"今天在委員會，我們還是必須把這個話給講出來，謝謝！是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:00.207000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:01.408000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，委員講得很對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:01.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:04.450000+08:00","text":"有些事情我們沒辦法去改變它，但我們要改變我們自己去調適它，不是一味地依從。","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:05.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:05.891000+08:00","text":"事實上，剛剛委員也點出幾個問題來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:21.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:25.611000+08:00","text":"你講機密、非機密，假如不講，人家說「外面都有，那還叫什麼機密？","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:26.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:26.692000+08:00","text":"」但不一樣哦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:27.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:30.456000+08:00","text":"媒體報導跟我們講出來就不一樣了哦！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:30.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:40.105000+08:00","text":"為什麼有些報紙出來以後，它就追著我們國防單位這些有關的人員去追問啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:41.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:44.589000+08:00","text":"因為從你口裡面講出來的，跟媒體上看到的，不一樣的。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:45.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:53:55.136000+08:00","text":"所以我們這裡面該拿捏，還是要拿捏，委員該問，一定可以問，但我們要跟委員報告，有些很機敏的，我們一定是派人到委員那裡去單獨做說明……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:53:55.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:54:05.762000+08:00","text":"部長，從立法院的角度來說，當然我們希望知道更多的資訊、更完整的資訊，有助於監督，這沒有問題，但怎麼在取得機密資訊以後，我們怎麼樣防範它外洩的機制。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:54:06.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:54:10.464000+08:00","text":"坦白說，我自己身為一個立法委員，也覺得這部分立法院有責任把機制給建立完備，這也有助於未來我們怎麼樣跟國防部可以再了解到更完整的資訊，包括機密資訊的時候，大家都可以有一個在機制上面的信任感，我覺得我們比較是從這個角度去想這個事情。是。","quality":0.602},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:54:27.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:54:30.849000+08:00","text":"而不一定只是一味地說你給的資料不夠機密。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:54:31.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:54:40.972000+08:00","text":"假如自己立法院內部的機密管控的機制做得不到位的時候，大家信任感也都會怕怕的，這完全可以理解的事情。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:54:41.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:54:49.975000+08:00","text":"所以我們還是希望說，剛才講到今天國艦國造的問題，還是希望接下來我們的國防部，或者是我們的相關單位能夠繼續勇於任事啦！了解。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:54:49.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:54:52.196000+08:00","text":"不要被這些大大小小、外面的，可能不實、可能捕風捉影的狀況給嚇退了，或者是給挫折了，這不是大家希望的事情。","quality":0.217},{"speaker":"洪委員申翰","start":"2024-04-17T11:54:52.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-17T11:54:52.256000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長國正","start":"2024-04-17T11:54:52.756000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:54:54.756000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-17T11:54:55.056000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-17T11:54:58.770286+08:00","text":"接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}