{"error":false,"id":["151758"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151758,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151758","日期":"2024-04-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-25T11:51:51+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-25T12:04:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce156c66fad7ef77a142e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed013aef6d08d5d55f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:51:51 - 12:04:55","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時52分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。在本席就今天的討論法案進行發言之前，我先做一個說明，因為身為會議的主席、輪值召委，我們經常遇到散會的情況，藉此也跟委員會做個說明。一般根據立法院的議事規則第二十五條、第二十六條、第二十七條，第二十五條主席可以決定休息的時間，在討論進行過程當中隨時可以宣告。但是第二十六條議案議畢，如果今天的議案已經討論完畢了，當然就是自然散會，或者說散會時間已屆、五點半已經到了，那也自然散會。除非有一種情況，散會時間已到但是討論還想繼續進行，那麼就會提出一個延長時間，根據第二十七條提出一個動議、延長開會時間。但是也有可能雖然散會時間還沒到、議案也還沒討論完畢，但是在場的多數不想要討論，他就可以根據第二十六條第二項提出一個散會動議，散會動議一經提出，不需討論，直接表決。","因此說明了為什麼上週四本席輪值召委的時候，明明在場的多數委員想要散會，但是他們卻在2點39分提交散會動議的同時、本席宣告休息的時候他們不願意離開，他們在現場等待的目的不是為了要開會，是為了要散會；他們在現場等候要表決的目的，是不讓別人繼續開會討論！這一點，作為一個會議的主席，我必須說明，當本席在上週四下午5點25分，散會時間將屆滿的時候，那時候在場的民進黨委員提出延長時間，至當日晚上12點，讓大家想開會、想討論的充分討論。","但是無奈，根據議事規則，我們必須先處理當時多數國民黨所提出來的散會動議，於是國民黨的多數委員從下午2點40分，等到5點半，其實5點半時間到了，他們不用提散會動議也散會了啦！再三證明，他們趕在時間屆滿前提出散會動議，就是不要讓我們討論議案，就這樣而已！很可惜的，目前國民黨在場的委員只有謝委員，謝謝捧場啦！","我繼續講一下，為什麼需要討論？照理來說今天是詢答，我應該請周秘書長來詢答，但是我就之前幾位委員的發言來進行討論。剛剛有黃國昌委員提出了為什麼我們不去處理他所提到的幾個問題？我們先看，這次在我們委員會當中，有對立法委員行為法提出修正草案，有立法院職權行使法，由各黨提出草案，台灣民眾黨只有提出職權行使法的草案，他並沒有要去修立法委員行為法，立法委員行為法主要是民進黨的委員提出來的，這裡面從第一章到第七章，對於委員個人的行為規範講得很清楚，至於職權行使法講的是立法院如何行使職權。","接下來我們往下看，剛剛黃委員說到了，他說收錢、喬事、關說司法、關說假釋等等，這些在立法委員行為法第四章遊說及政治捐獻規定得很清楚，第十六條要遵守遊說法規定啊！第十八條要遵守政治獻金的規定，條文都有寫，如果台灣民眾黨的委員認為不夠規範、不夠嚴格，請提出立法委員行為法的修法，不要對著民進黨提出的立法委員行為法說沒有修，我們看看立法委員、我們范委員提出什麼意見，立法委員行為法當中第七條是應該共同維護會議秩序，是倫理規範。而議事規則對秘密會議有所規範，目前第七條當中的行為規範，從第一款到第十款，都是立法委員個人問政，在委員會裡面、在公共場所裡面都應該要遵守的。但是在這裡面，我們范雲委員之前所提出的性騷擾，就是在議場進行議事討論的時候所發生的，難道不需要在這個倫理規範當中加以討論嗎？所以現行法不是完全無規範，我們修法就是按現行的框架走，也請台灣民眾黨包括黃總召要有所瞭解。","接下來我們來看今天的國會改革，有請周秘書長。"],["主席：秘書長請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也請保護司的張專門委員。"],["主席：張專委。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個就是您的職權範圍內，請本於職權做回答。保護司請告訴我們周秘書長，如果有某A委員在議事過程中推擠，故用腹部頂住B委員的背部，事後又表示「我又不是餓死鬼」、「用肚子又不會懷孕，不算性騷擾」，請問這個構不構成性騷擾？請說明。"],["張專門委員靜倫：我們性騷擾是有定義啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有定義。"],["張專門委員靜倫：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那這個有沒有接近性騷擾的定義？需要再判斷一下？"],["張專門委員靜倫：我們原則上經過申訴之後會有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果有申訴，你們會處理？"],["張專門委員靜倫：是，再來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個案子已經判確定啦！你不用那麼擔心，已經判確定就是性騷擾。","案例二，有C立委跟記者下班後聚餐，然後突然對記者抱頭強吻，如果發生這種情況，算不算性騷擾？算不算？因為我沒有具名喔！是假設狀況，這樣算不算？"],["張專門委員靜倫：我們性騷擾法是規定，如果不及抗拒而有這些行為的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不及抗拒？好，謝謝請回。","秘書長，如果是案例一、案例二，適用哪個法律？適用性別平等工作法還是適用性騷擾防治法？你判斷一下，我特別請專門委員回去就判斷……看你瞭不瞭解。"],["周秘書長萬來：應該是照性騷擾防治法來處理吧？"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼不是用性別平等工作法？因為立法委員不是立法院僱用的員工啊！性別平等工作法只保障工作職場上受僱者，軍公教人員不包含立法委員，所以只能用性騷擾防治法，由主管機關即臺北市政府就位於臺北市轄區所在的立法院內的性騷擾行為進行防治，是不是這樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為范委員在性別平等裡面有特別希望把立法委員也規範在內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我們就是今天提案嘛！立法院內的申訴處處受限，立法委員成為加害人的時候，很難透過現有的程序處理，難道立法委員不需要自律嗎？所以我們定在立法委員行為法。","這裡面就是這樣，從第一款到第十款，沒有一條是有包括性騷擾的行為，所以秘書長，如果我們加入性騷擾的倫理規範，你支不支持？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不反對啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不反對？你是不反對而已啦！相對的不像專門委員那麼的支持。","案例三，洩漏秘密會議內容的責任，有某個D立委在院內的秘密會拒簽切結書，涉嫌為謀利而洩漏軍事秘密給境外的軍火商，請問你認為D立委的行為可能構成什麼犯罪？你能回答嗎？很困難，好。","其實刑法第一百零九條第一項、第二項，洩漏或交付關於中華民國國防應秘密之文書等等，這要處一年以上七年以下；如果洩漏給外國或其派遣之人，處三年以上十年以下。國家機密保護法第三十二條第一項第二項，洩漏或交付核定之國家機密者，處一年以上七年以下；交付前項之機密於大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力者，處三年以上十年以下。秘書長，你有沒有覺得很嚴重？是不是很嚴重的罪行？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為現在的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問你嚴不嚴重嘛？這個嚴不嚴重？三年以上十年以下，嚴不嚴重？"],["周秘書長萬來：一般來講，三年以上的罪行都很嚴重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：案例四，洩漏秘密會議內容的責任，假如這個D立委他並沒有當場洩漏，但於半年後他要到北京參加交流參訪，要不要申請許可？現行法要不要申請許可？"],["周秘書長萬來：現行法沒有規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現行法沒有規範？來，我告訴你，要的！兩岸條例第九條第三項、第四項，簡任11職等以上要內政部許可，政務人員、縣市長還有涉及國安機密人員等，要經過內政部、國安局、法務部、陸委會的審查會許可，請問立法委員有沒有在這個規範的範圍內？有沒有在這個規範的範圍內？立法院的立法委員有沒有在這個規範的範圍內？有沒有？立法院有沒有人會涉及國安機密？有沒有可能涉及國安機密？立法院裡面有沒有任何人員有可能涉及國安機密？我是問你立法院有沒有可能涉及國安機密？如果你說沒有，我問隔壁的外交與國防委員會，它每次開秘密會議是在開什麼意思的！有沒有？立法院有沒有涉及國家機密？很困難回答嗎？就是有嘛！請問你立法院過去有涉及國家機密的人員，有根據兩岸條例，立法院有去向這些單位進行報告或許可嗎？有沒有？你認為立法院要不要？有沒有限制我們立法院職權？有沒有侵害我們憲政機關的權力？你可能認為，有或沒有很簡單，不好回答嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這個委員之間的行為上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這不是委員之間的行為，這是立法院職權行使涉及到國防機密的問題，你身為秘書長，你不曉得要不要適用第九條？","陸委會副主委來本席召集的公聽會的時候，他說監察院也都有向陸委會提報管制人員名單，只要有公文列為機密以上的接觸人員，都要納入範圍。秘書長，監察院都有喔！監察院現在有憲法所賦予的調查權，接觸到國防機密的時候、接觸到國家機密的時候，他會列管制人員，立法院有沒有？還在問？我告訴你啦！監察院目前根據兩岸條例提報了26人、政務人員16人，就包括監察委員，依國家機密保護法的有44人。秘書長，你身為立法院秘書長，你難道認為，同樣是憲政機關、監察院要受兩岸條例第九條的規範，你立法院到目前有沒有報過？是不是0個？有沒有報過？說！有沒有報過？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這個規範名單，大概秘書長是規範在裡面，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請你回去查，回來再跟本委員會報告，到底立法院從古到今、第九條開始以來有沒有報告？所以民意代表應受到公開檢驗，我們立法院的議事規則還有立法委員行為法應該修法，拒簽保密協議不得參加秘密會議，秘密會議人員赴中應該報備跟公開。","所以今天我們的結論就很簡單，剛剛有委員提到，當然以本席的立場，我會寫「中國」，以我們的兩岸條例，它會寫「大陸地區、港澳地區」，我們在修法的時候大家可以表達。為什麼我一直希望在場的國民黨委員等到下午恢復開會的時候請留下來一起討論，把各黨版本當中的差異說清楚、講明白，不要躲在散會動議後面，憑著人數多數的優勢，一來就要散會。我們澈底、誠懇地希望下午兩點重行開會的時候，在下午5點半會議時間未屆滿前、今天的討論事項未議畢前，請在場的委員想討論的不要提出散會動議。本席剛剛已經示範過了，議事規則第二十五條、第二十六條、第二十七條，除非是議案還沒結束前、開會時間還沒屆滿前，你不想討論請自行離開，不要提散會動議，在這裡再次做這樣的宣告。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾召委的質詢，秘書長也請回。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員傅崐萁、吳宗憲所提書面質詢，均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 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場的多數委員他們想要散會"},{"start":105.049,"end":125.157,"text":"但是他們卻在2點39分提交散會動議的同時本席宣告休息的時候他們不願意離開他們在現場等待的目的不是為了要開會是為了要散會他們在現場等會要表決的目的是不讓別人繼續開會討論這一點作為一個會議的主席我必須說明當本席在上週四下午5點25分"},{"start":136.572,"end":144.846,"text":"上會時間將屆滿的時候那時候在場的民進黨委員提出一個延長時間至當日晚上12點讓大家想開會想討論的充分討論但是無奈根據會議規則"},{"start":150.121,"end":167.572,"text":"議事規則我們必須先處理當時多數的國民黨所提出來的散會動議,於是國民黨的多數委員終於從下午的兩點四十分等到他們到五點半,其實五點半時間到了他們不用提散會動議也散會了啦。"},{"start":168.152,"end":180.655,"text":"再三的證明他們敢在時間屆滿前提出三位動議就是不要讓我們討論議案就這樣而已那很可惜的呢在場的委員目前國民黨在場委員只有我們謝委員謝謝捧場那我繼續來講一下因為為什麼需要討論本來照說今天是尋答我應該請周秘書長來就尋答但是我自己底下呢我就之前的幾位委員的發言我們來進行討論下一頁"},{"start":193.578,"end":215.49,"text":"剛剛有黃國昌委員提出了為什麼我們不去處理他所提到的幾個問題我們先看這次在我們委員會當中有立法委員行為法有提出修正草案有立法院職權行使法有各黨提出草案台灣民眾黨只有提出職權行使法的草案他並沒有要去修立法委員行為法"},{"start":216.03,"end":225.237,"text":"立法院行為法主要是民進黨委員提出來的這裡面從第一章到第七章對於委員個人的行為規範講得很清楚至於職權行事法講的是立法院如何行使職權接下來我們往下看那麼剛剛黃委員說到了他說收錢、喬事、關說司法、關說假釋等等等"},{"start":238.446,"end":251.84,"text":"這些在立法委員行為法第四章遊說及政治捐獻很清楚啊16條啊要遵守遊說法規定啊18條啊要遵守政治宣言的規定啊條文都有寫如果台灣民眾黨的委員認為不夠規範不夠嚴格請提出立法委員行為法的修法"},{"start":257.54,"end":271.128,"text":"不要對著民進黨提出的立法委員行為法提出的說沒有修到我們看看立法委員我們范委員提出什麼意見我們往下看立法院行為法當中第七條應該共同維護會議秩序這是倫理規範意識規則對秘密會議有所規範我們來看一下目前第七條當中的行為規範一款到第十款"},{"start":280.174,"end":306.848,"text":"都是立法委員個人問政在委員會裡面在公共場所裡面都應該要遵守的但是這裡面在我們之前范雲委員所提出的性騷擾就是在議場進行議事討論的時候所發生的難道不需要在這個倫理規範當中加以討論嗎好所以呢現行法不是完全無規範我們修法就是按現行的框架走也請民臺灣民眾黨包括黃總召要留守瞭解往下看"},{"start":307.85,"end":313.035,"text":"接下來我們來看今天的我們國會改革,有請周秘書長。秘書長請。好秘書長,我們往下看齁。請問一下,來。也請保護司的我們的處長是吧,專門委員,張專門委員。這個就是您的職權範圍內,請本瑜之前做回答。"},{"start":332.85,"end":354.041,"text":"請告訴我們周秘書長如果有某A委員在議事過程中推擠僱用腹部頂住B委員的背部事後又表示我又不是餓死鬼用肚子又不會懷孕說明我性騷擾請問這個夠不夠成性騷擾請說明我們性騷擾是有定義啦好有定義那這個有沒有接近性騷擾的定義需要再判斷一下"},{"start":357.932,"end":362.975,"text":"案例二 有C立委跟記者下班後聚餐,然後突然對記者抱頭強吻。如果這種情況發生,算不算新騷?算不算?"},{"start":383.001,"end":412.353,"text":"因為我沒有具名喔假設狀況算不算我們性騷擾法是規定如果不及抗拒而有這些不及抗拒好謝謝來來秘書長謝謝請回秘書長下一頁如果案例一案例二適用哪個法律適用性別平等工作法還是適用性騷擾防治法你判斷一下我特別請專門委員回去就判斷看看你的表解為什麼不適用性別平等工作法"},{"start":414.656,"end":436.335,"text":"因為立法委員不是立法院僱用的員工啊性別平等工作法只保障工作職場上受僱者軍公教人員不包含立法委員所以他只能用性騷擾防治法由主管機關臺北市政府就位於臺北市轄區所在的立法院內的性騷擾行為進行防治是不是這樣"},{"start":437.176,"end":466.654,"text":"因為換委員在姓蕾平等的裡面有特別希望把立法委員也歸換在內。好,所以我們就是今天提案吧。立法院內的申訴處處受限,立法委員成為加害人的時候,很難透過現有的程序處理。難道立法委員不需要自律嗎?所以我們定在立法委員行為法下一頁。好,這裡面就是知道第一款到第一次款,沒有一條是有爆發性騷擾的行為。所以民進黨,如果我們加入性騷擾的一個倫理規範,你支不支持?"},{"start":467.746,"end":489.515,"text":"我不反對。不反對喔。你是不反對而已啦。那相對的不像章委員那麼的一個支持。往下一頁。案例三。泄露秘密會的內容責任有某個第一立委在院內的秘密會拒簽戒協書涉嫌為謀利而泄露軍事秘密給境外的軍火商。請問你認為第一立委的行為可能構成什麼犯罪?你能回答嗎?很困難。往下一頁。"},{"start":497.799,"end":526.904,"text":"其實刑法第109條第1項、第2項、洩漏或交付關於中華民國國防因秘密之文書等等,這要處一年以上、七年以下。如果洩漏給外國或其派遣之人,三年以上、十年以下。國家精密保護法第三十二條第1項、第2項,洩漏或交付核定的國家精密一年以上、七年以下。交付前項的話,到大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力,三年以上、十年以下。民主黨你覺得有沒有很嚴重?是不是很嚴重的一個罪行?"},{"start":528.888,"end":557.156,"text":"我問你嚴不嚴重?這個嚴不嚴重?三年以上十年以下嚴不嚴重?當然在一般來講三年以上的罪行都很嚴重好往下一頁所以案例是洩漏秘密會的內容的責任假如這個第一立委他並沒有當場洩漏半年後他要到北京參加交流專訪要不要申請許可?現行法要不要申請許可?現行法沒有規範現行法沒有規範來我告訴你要的往下一頁看"},{"start":558.417,"end":582.893,"text":"兩案條例第九條、第三項、第四項、檢認實質等要內政務許可。政務人員、縣市省還有涉及國安機密人員要經過內政務國安會、法務部、陸委會的審查會許可。請問立法委員有沒有這個規範範圍內?有沒有規範範圍內?立法院立法委員有沒有規範範圍內?有沒有?立法院有沒有人會涉及國安機密?"},{"start":585.267,"end":607.164,"text":"有沒有可能涉及國安機密?在立法院裡面有沒有任何人員有可能涉及國安機密?我是問你嘛,有沒有可能立法院涉及國安機密?如果你說沒有,我問隔壁的外國委員會、外交官委員會,他每次看秘密會是開什麼意思的?有沒有?立法院有沒有涉及國家機密?很困難回答嗎?就是有嘛!"},{"start":608.978,"end":629.173,"text":"請問你立法院過去有涉及國家機密的人員,你有根據兩岸條例,立法院有去向這些單位進行報告或許可嗎?有沒有?你認為立法院要不要?有沒有限縮我們立法院之權?有沒有侵害我們憲政機關的權利?你可能認為有或沒有,很簡單,不好回答嗎?"},{"start":633.116,"end":654.311,"text":"這不是委員之間的行為,這是立法院職權行使涉及到國防機密問題。你身為秘書長,你不曉得要不要適用這個第九條,往下看。錄委會副主委來本席召集的公聽會的時候,他說,監察院也都有向錄委會提報管制人員名單,只要有公文列為機密以上的接觸人員,都要納入範圍。"},{"start":657.23,"end":681.198,"text":"民主黨監察院都有喔!監察院現在有憲法所賦予的調查權接觸到國防機密、接觸到國家機密他會列什麼管制人員立法院有沒有還在問我告訴你啦監察院目前根據兩條條例提報的26人政務人員16人就包括監察委員依國家機密保護法的有44人民主黨"},{"start":684.383,"end":696.832,"text":"你身為立法院秘書長你難道認為同樣的是縣政機關監察院要受兩岸條例第九條的規範你立法院到目前有沒有是不是0個有沒有報過"},{"start":698.118,"end":719.139,"text":"說有沒有報告?所以請你回去查回來再跟朋友們報告到底立法院從古到今第九條開始以來有沒有報告好所以民意代表應受到公開的檢驗我們立法院的議事規則還有立法院的行為法應該修法拒簽保密協議不得參加秘密會議秘密委員員附中應該報備跟公開往下一頁"},{"start":722.742,"end":725.528,"text":"所以今天我們的結論就很簡單剛剛有委員提到當然"},{"start":730.543,"end":751.694,"text":"以本席的立場我會寫中國那以我們兩岸條例他會寫大陸地區、港澳地區我們在修法的時候大家可以表達為什麼我一直希望在場的國民黨委員等到下午恢復開會的時候請留下來一起討論把各黨的版本當中的差異說清楚講明白不要躲在三位動議後面"},{"start":752.994,"end":768.782,"text":"憑著人數多數優勢一來就要散會我們徹底誠懇的希望下午兩點重新開會的時候在下午五點半會議時間未屆滿前今天的討論事項未一避前請在場的委員想討論的"},{"start":769.762,"end":775.831,"text":"不要提出散會動議本席剛才已經示範過了議事規則252627除非是議案還沒結束前開會時間還沒見滿前你不想討論請自行離開不要提散會動議在這裡再次做一項宣告謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:52:12.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:52:16.972000+08:00","text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:52:17.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:52:31.339000+08:00","text":"在本席就今天的討論法案進行發言之前，我先做一個說明，因為身為會議的主席、輪值召委，我們經常遇到散會的情況，藉此也跟委員會做個說明。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:52:32.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:52:42.787000+08:00","text":"一般根據立法院的議事規則第二十五條、第二十六條、第二十七條，第二十五條主席可以決定休息的時間，在討論進行過程當中隨時可以宣告。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:52:43.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:52:55.616000+08:00","text":"但是第二十六條議案議畢，如果今天的議案已經討論完畢了，當然就是自然散會，或者說散會時間已屆、五點半已經到了，那也自然散會。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:52:55.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:52:59.639000+08:00","text":"除非有一種情況，散會時間已到但是討論還想繼續進行，那麼就會提出一個延長時間，根據第二十七條提出一個動議、延長開會時間。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:53:06.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:53:23.618000+08:00","text":"但是也有可能雖然散會時間還沒到、議案也還沒討論完畢，但是在場的多數不想要討論，他就可以根據第二十六條第二項提出一個散會動議，散會動議一經提出，不需討論，直接表決。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:53:24.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:53:54.737000+08:00","text":"因此說明了為什麼上週四本席輪值召委的時候，明明在場的多數委員想要散會，但是他們卻在2點39分提交散會動議的同時、本席宣告休息的時候他們不願意離開，他們在現場等待的目的不是為了要開會，是為了要散會；他們在現場等候要表決的目的，是不讓別人繼續開會討論！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:53:54.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:54:15.666000+08:00","text":"這一點，作為一個會議的主席，我必須說明，當本席在上週四下午5點25分，散會時間將屆滿的時候，那時候在場的民進黨委員提出延長時間，至當日晚上12點，讓大家想開會、想討論的充分討論。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:54:15.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:54:38.552000+08:00","text":"但是無奈，根據議事規則，我們必須先處理當時多數國民黨所提出來的散會動議，於是國民黨的多數委員從下午2點40分，等到5點半，其實5點半時間到了，他們不用提散會動議也散會了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:54:39.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:54:46.334000+08:00","text":"再三證明，他們趕在時間屆滿前提出散會動議，就是不要讓我們討論議案，就這樣而已！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:54:47.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:54:49.014000+08:00","text":"很可惜的，目前國民黨在場的委員只有謝委員，謝謝捧場啦！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:54:49.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:54:49.575000+08:00","text":"我繼續講一下，為什麼需要討論？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:54:49.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:54:51.555000+08:00","text":"照理來說今天是詢答，我應該請周秘書長來詢答，但是我就之前幾位委員的發言來進行討論。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:55:04.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:55:10.902000+08:00","text":"剛剛有黃國昌委員提出了為什麼我們不去處理他所提到的幾個問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:55:10.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:55:35.736000+08:00","text":"我們先看，這次在我們委員會當中，有對立法委員行為法提出修正草案，有立法院職權行使法，由各黨提出草案，台灣民眾黨只有提出職權行使法的草案，他並沒有要去修立法委員行為法，立法委員行為法主要是民進黨的委員提出來的，這裡面從第一章到第七章，對於委員個人的行為規範講得很清楚，至於職權行使法講的是立法院如何行使職權。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:55:35.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:55:56.734000+08:00","text":"接下來我們往下看，剛剛黃委員說到了，他說收錢、喬事、關說司法、關說假釋等等，這些在立法委員行為法第四章遊說及政治捐獻規定得很清楚，第十六條要遵守遊說法規定啊！","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:55:57.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:56:19.607000+08:00","text":"第十八條要遵守政治獻金的規定，條文都有寫，如果台灣民眾黨的委員認為不夠規範、不夠嚴格，請提出立法委員行為法的修法，不要對著民進黨提出的立法委員行為法說沒有修，我們看看立法委員、我們范委員提出什麼意見，立法委員行為法當中第七條是應該共同維護會議秩序，是倫理規範。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:56:19.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:56:36.897000+08:00","text":"而議事規則對秘密會議有所規範，目前第七條當中的行為規範，從第一款到第十款，都是立法委員個人問政，在委員會裡面、在公共場所裡面都應該要遵守的。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:56:37.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:56:49.503000+08:00","text":"但是在這裡面，我們范雲委員之前所提出的性騷擾，就是在議場進行議事討論的時候所發生的，難道不需要在這個倫理規範當中加以討論嗎？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:56:50.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:56:57.347000+08:00","text":"所以現行法不是完全無規範，我們修法就是按現行的框架走，也請台灣民眾黨包括黃總召要有所瞭解。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:56:58.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:01.272000+08:00","text":"接下來我們來看今天的國會改革，有請周秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:01.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:01.292000+08:00","text":"秘書長請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:02.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:03.494000+08:00","text":"也請保護司的張專門委員。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:03.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:03.494000+08:00","text":"張專委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:03.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:04.015000+08:00","text":"這個就是您的職權範圍內，請本於職權做回答。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:23.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:39.338000+08:00","text":"保護司請告訴我們周秘書長，如果有某A委員在議事過程中推擠，故用腹部頂住B委員的背部，事後又表示「我又不是餓死鬼」、「用肚子又不會懷孕，不算性騷擾」，請問這個構不構成性騷擾？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:39.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:39.338000+08:00","text":"請說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張專門委員靜倫","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:39.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:41.659000+08:00","text":"我們性騷擾是有定義啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:42.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:43.220000+08:00","text":"好，有定義。對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:43.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:44.321000+08:00","text":"那這個有沒有接近性騷擾的定義？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:44.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:45.021000+08:00","text":"需要再判斷一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張專門委員靜倫","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:45.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:46.021000+08:00","text":"我們原則上經過申訴之後會有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:46.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:47.021000+08:00","text":"好，如果有申訴，你們會處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張專門委員靜倫","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:47.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:48.021000+08:00","text":"是，再來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:48.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:49.021000+08:00","text":"這個案子已經判確定啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:49.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:50.021000+08:00","text":"你不用那麼擔心，已經判確定就是性騷擾。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:48.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:53.835000+08:00","text":"案例二，有C立委跟記者下班後聚餐，然後突然對記者抱頭強吻，如果發生這種情況，算不算性騷擾？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:57:53.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:57:53.955000+08:00","text":"算不算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:14.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:14.681000+08:00","text":"因為我沒有具名喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:15.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:16.162000+08:00","text":"是假設狀況，這樣算不算？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"張專門委員靜倫","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:16.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:20.103000+08:00","text":"我們性騷擾法是規定，如果不及抗拒而有這些行為的話……","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:20.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:21.224000+08:00","text":"不及抗拒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:21.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:23.385000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:24.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:29.187000+08:00","text":"秘書長，如果是案例一、案例二，適用哪個法律？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:30.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:33.189000+08:00","text":"適用性別平等工作法還是適用性騷擾防治法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:34.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:40.552000+08:00","text":"你判斷一下，我特別請專門委員回去就判斷……看你瞭不瞭解。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:40.552000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:41.772000+08:00","text":"應該是照性騷擾防治法來處理吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:41.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:43.333000+08:00","text":"為什麼不是用性別平等工作法？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:45.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:58:49.439000+08:00","text":"因為立法委員不是立法院僱用的員工啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:58:50.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:07.335000+08:00","text":"性別平等工作法只保障工作職場上受僱者，軍公教人員不包含立法委員，所以只能用性騷擾防治法，由主管機關即臺北市政府就位於臺北市轄區所在的立法院內的性騷擾行為進行防治，是不是這樣？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:08.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:16.601000+08:00","text":"因為范委員在性別平等裡面有特別希望把立法委員也規範在內。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:16.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:18.182000+08:00","text":"好，所以我們就是今天提案嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:18.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:26.147000+08:00","text":"立法院內的申訴處處受限，立法委員成為加害人的時候，很難透過現有的程序處理，難道立法委員不需要自律嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:26.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:27.888000+08:00","text":"所以我們定在立法委員行為法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:30.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:37.634000+08:00","text":"這裡面就是這樣，從第一款到第十款，沒有一條是有包括性騷擾的行為，所以秘書長，如果我們加入性騷擾的倫理規範，你支不支持？","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:38.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:39.927000+08:00","text":"我不反對啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:39.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:40.387000+08:00","text":"不反對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:41.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:42.027000+08:00","text":"你是不反對而已啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:42.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:44.829000+08:00","text":"相對的不像專門委員那麼的支持。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:47.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T11:59:59.915000+08:00","text":"案例三，洩漏秘密會議內容的責任，有某個D立委在院內的秘密會拒簽切結書，涉嫌為謀利而洩漏軍事秘密給境外的軍火商，請問你認為D立委的行為可能構成什麼犯罪？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T11:59:59.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:00.275000+08:00","text":"你能回答嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:00.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:00.335000+08:00","text":"很困難，好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:08.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:21.061000+08:00","text":"其實刑法第一百零九條第一項、第二項，洩漏或交付關於中華民國國防應秘密之文書等等，這要處一年以上七年以下；如果洩漏給外國或其派遣之人，處三年以上十年以下。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:21.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:33.583000+08:00","text":"國家機密保護法第三十二條第一項第二項，洩漏或交付核定之國家機密者，處一年以上七年以下；交付前項之機密於大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力者，處三年以上十年以下。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:34.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:36.104000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你有沒有覺得很嚴重？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:37.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:37.884000+08:00","text":"是不是很嚴重的罪行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:37.884000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:39.888000+08:00","text":"因為現在的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:39.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:41.048000+08:00","text":"我問你嚴不嚴重嘛？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:41.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:41.829000+08:00","text":"這個嚴不嚴重？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:42.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:44.049000+08:00","text":"三年以上十年以下，嚴不嚴重？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:46.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:00:49.511000+08:00","text":"一般來講，三年以上的罪行都很嚴重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:00:51.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:00.074000+08:00","text":"案例四，洩漏秘密會議內容的責任，假如這個D立委他並沒有當場洩漏，但於半年後他要到北京參加交流參訪，要不要申請許可？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:01.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:02.674000+08:00","text":"現行法要不要申請許可？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:05.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:05.815000+08:00","text":"現行法沒有規範。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:05.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:06.475000+08:00","text":"現行法沒有規範？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:06.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:07.376000+08:00","text":"來，我告訴你，要的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:09.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:26.608000+08:00","text":"兩岸條例第九條第三項、第四項，簡任11職等以上要內政部許可，政務人員、縣市長還有涉及國安機密人員等，要經過內政部、國安局、法務部、陸委會的審查會許可，請問立法委員有沒有在這個規範的範圍內？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:26.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:27.789000+08:00","text":"有沒有在這個規範的範圍內？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:27.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:30.811000+08:00","text":"立法院的立法委員有沒有在這個規範的範圍內？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:30.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:31.051000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:32.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:33.873000+08:00","text":"立法院有沒有人會涉及國安機密？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:36.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:37.328000+08:00","text":"有沒有可能涉及國安機密？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:37.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:40.710000+08:00","text":"立法院裡面有沒有任何人員有可能涉及國安機密？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:43.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:45.814000+08:00","text":"我是問你立法院有沒有可能涉及國安機密？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:46.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:50.858000+08:00","text":"如果你說沒有，我問隔壁的外交與國防委員會，它每次開秘密會議是在開什麼意思的！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:51.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:51.679000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:53.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:54.841000+08:00","text":"立法院有沒有涉及國家機密？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:55.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:57.583000+08:00","text":"很困難回答嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:57.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:01:58.143000+08:00","text":"就是有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:01:59.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:09.145000+08:00","text":"請問你立法院過去有涉及國家機密的人員，有根據兩岸條例，立法院有去向這些單位進行報告或許可嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:09.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:09.325000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:11.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:11.727000+08:00","text":"你認為立法院要不要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:12.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:14.529000+08:00","text":"有沒有限制我們立法院職權？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:14.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:16.170000+08:00","text":"有沒有侵害我們憲政機關的權力？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:17.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:20.173000+08:00","text":"你可能認為，有或沒有很簡單，不好回答嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:20.173000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:24.116000+08:00","text":"因為這個委員之間的行為上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:24.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:30.301000+08:00","text":"這不是委員之間的行為，這是立法院職權行使涉及到國防機密的問題，你身為秘書長，你不曉得要不要適用第九條？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:32.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:45.311000+08:00","text":"陸委會副主委來本席召集的公聽會的時候，他說監察院也都有向陸委會提報管制人員名單，只要有公文列為機密以上的接觸人員，都要納入範圍。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:49.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:02:50.911000+08:00","text":"秘書長，監察院都有喔！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:02:51.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:00.154000+08:00","text":"監察院現在有憲法所賦予的調查權，接觸到國防機密的時候、接觸到國家機密的時候，他會列管制人員，立法院有沒有？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:01.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:02.235000+08:00","text":"還在問？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:02.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:02.755000+08:00","text":"我告訴你啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:04.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:11.918000+08:00","text":"監察院目前根據兩岸條例提報了26人、政務人員16人，就包括監察委員，依國家機密保護法的有44人。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:15.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:26.071000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你身為立法院秘書長，你難道認為，同樣是憲政機關、監察院要受兩岸條例第九條的規範，你立法院到目前有沒有報過？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:26.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:27.632000+08:00","text":"是不是0個？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:27.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:29.118000+08:00","text":"有沒有報過？說！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:29.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:29.499000+08:00","text":"有沒有報過？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:29.499000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:32.441000+08:00","text":"因為這個規範名單，大概秘書長是規範在裡面，因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:32.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:39.889000+08:00","text":"所以請你回去查，回來再跟本委員會報告，到底立法院從古到今、第九條開始以來有沒有報告？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:40.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:03:49.978000+08:00","text":"所以民意代表應受到公開檢驗，我們立法院的議事規則還有立法委員行為法應該修法，拒簽保密協議不得參加秘密會議，秘密會議人員赴中應該報備跟公開。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:03:53.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:04:09.687000+08:00","text":"所以今天我們的結論就很簡單，剛剛有委員提到，當然以本席的立場，我會寫「中國」，以我們的兩岸條例，它會寫「大陸地區、港澳地區」，我們在修法的時候大家可以表達。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:04:09.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:04:27.936000+08:00","text":"為什麼我一直希望在場的國民黨委員等到下午恢復開會的時候請留下來一起討論，把各黨版本當中的差異說清楚、講明白，不要躲在散會動議後面，憑著人數多數的優勢，一來就要散會。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:04:27.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:04:41.523000+08:00","text":"我們澈底、誠懇地希望下午兩點重行開會的時候，在下午5點半會議時間未屆滿前、今天的討論事項未議畢前，請在場的委員想討論的不要提出散會動議。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-25T12:04:41.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-25T12:04:46.831000+08:00","text":"本席剛剛已經示範過了，議事規則第二十五條、第二十六條、第二十七條，除非是議案還沒結束前、開會時間還沒屆滿前，你不想討論請自行離開，不要提散會動議，在這裡再次做這樣的宣告。謝謝。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-25T12:04:47.331000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T12:04:51.331000+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾召委的質詢，秘書長也請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（鍾委員佳濱）","start":"2024-04-25T12:04:51.631000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T12:04:56.773857+08:00","text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（鍾委員佳濱）","start":"2024-04-25T12:04:57.073857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T12:05:07.359571+08:00","text":"委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（鍾委員佳濱）","start":"2024-04-25T12:05:07.659571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-25T12:05:17.373857+08:00","text":"委員傅崐萁、吳宗憲所提書面質詢，均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}