{"error":false,"id":["151820"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151820,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151820","日期":"2024-04-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-22-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-29T10:00:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-29T10:10:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:05","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6278d87fd72f65032054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eee43ba2ecc2b3ce5ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:00:20 - 10:10:25","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","gazette":{"lineno":335,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時）非常謝謝我們的主席，我請文化部跟體育署。"],["主席：有請文化部跟體育署。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝兩位，我想我們過去查辦黃牛都是用社維法第六十四條第二款，目前為止，我們很明顯的就是沒有辦法達到阻嚇的效果，所以文化部修了文創法，體育署去年也修了運動產業發展法，在今年1月就要來實施。可是剛剛已經非常多的委員提過了，即使是這樣子的部分，罰鍰提高了，刑度也提升了，兩位身為部門的主管者，你們認為目前的黃牛問題有解決嗎？回答是或不是。"],["王次長時思：誠如剛剛跟委員的回報，黃牛的問題絕對是比之前緩和很多。"],["柯委員志恩：你們認為有解決，那鄭署長呢？你認為呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前有比較好一點的現象，但是一樣還是不夠的。"],["柯委員志恩：有比較好，但是不夠，大家都認為好像有下降了，不過剛剛很多委員也特別提到，你看以這個數據來說，我們就從文化部的檢舉黃牛區來說，這個地方提到裁處，成案率大概是28.9%，然後不正的方法，成案率，不好意思只有4.5%，所以是28.9跟4.5，如果你要告訴我說，這個是有一些成效，我想今天在場很多的委員大概都會有異議，這是為什麼到目前為止我們會有一些爭議。我要特別請問一下鄭署長，體育署有沒有比照文化部設立檢舉黃牛專區的網站？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，有。"],["柯委員志恩：有是不是？你覺得好用嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分的確我在署內的主管週報有要求我們的產業組要再去優化。"],["柯委員志恩：哇塞，真的是非常難用！我們來看一下有多難用，你知道嗎？目前你要先找到檢舉黃牛專區的兩種方法，比較複雜是從首頁上方的公告專區，再點新聞專區，再到左邊的資訊總覽才可以看到。第二種方法就是直接在首頁的bar可以看到，你如果不去特別點它的話，它要慢慢跑、慢慢跑，署長知道跑多少秒嗎？你知道跑多少秒？我告訴你，起碼10秒以上。哇塞，我們這個資訊的時代，大家連等3秒鐘都沒有辦法，你要10秒鐘！最荒謬的是，很多民眾找不到運動賽事是放在哪裡，他直接跑到文化部的檢舉黃牛專區去檢舉，目前體育署提供的資料就只有兩件，這是體育署的宣傳不力，還是怎麼樣？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們來優化。"],["柯委員志恩：你們當然要優化，而且我們真的是誠如剛剛大家所提到的，包括次長，你們兩位部會首長，這個黃牛檢舉的專區，有沒有辦法整合成一個平臺啊？就整合成一個平臺，數發部有沒有辦法有這樣的相關建議？數發部，你們好像覺得都可以來做程式上面的撰寫，我真的覺得，如果沒有辦法的話，乾脆找最近很紅的臺灣地震速報app的那個高中生來幫忙，可能好一點，會不會？數發部真的要很努力，否則的話，真的是沒有辦法。","接下來，為什麼這個部分大家都覺得，剛剛因為轉售二手的票券，很多人就在講，大家都知道有這些社團，每個人都已經提出有非常多的社團，然後你們有沒有主動，我現在只問主動，很多時候你們要收到告發才會去查，請問你們有沒有主動去對這些所謂的社團，看它能不能夠下架，有沒有主動來做這樣的事情？我現在是不是可以請警政署的代表林明佐警政監來回答？警政署有沒有主動調查？"],["林警政監明佐：報告，有。"],["柯委員志恩：你們有啊？"],["林警政監明佐：對。"],["柯委員志恩：到底是誰管？我都不曉得，是文化部嗎？大家都認為可不可以下架，因為民眾看到這些，就會想要進去，可是如果沒有主動調查，但是警政署我真的要說，真的有嗎？因為你看看，你們通常都是用釣魚的方法，對不對？通常警政署裡面的警察都用釣魚的方法喬裝成買家，然後捉出這些黃牛，問題是當警政署送出法辦之後，你覺得法院會不會有判罰？有沒有？"],["林警政監明佐：目前我們移送的案件都進入偵審。"],["柯委員志恩：然後你覺得要怎麼樣嗎？大家最生氣的是，我到司法院的裁判書系統去查，解鎖過去黃牛違反社護法移送的判例，你知道嗎？真的是要看運氣，有些法官有判罰，有些不判罰，原因都是什麼？他說雖然黃牛有所謂轉售的意圖，但是警員，因為都是你們的員警釣出人來，他們並沒有買受門票的意思，所以沒有辦法構成圖利的行為，為什麼會是這個樣子？這表示你送了老半天進去，他都用這個方法來判，都是不判罰，難怪黃牛這麼樣的囂張嘛？不是嗎？警政署，它到底是法規的問題，還是法官自由心證的問題，還是你們偵查方法的問題，可不可以回答一下？"],["林警政監明佐：剛剛委員所提的那是一個個案的偵查手法，目前文創法及運彩條例修法過之後，對於這樣的行為，已經有專法，包括鐵路法也是一樣……"],["柯委員志恩：對不起，警政署，我還是要特別問你，即使有這兩個法，文創法還有運發條例，目前為止都還是用社維法來辦！目前為止都用社維法來辦，而且文創法及運發條例只有兩件事，到底是因為警政機關都是用社維法來移辦，還是到底是怎麼樣？因為基層警察告訴我，他們處理詐騙案已經分身乏術了，根本沒有在辦這個，因為真的是壓力，沒有辦法達到這個地方，還有就是每次送到地檢署，也都是緩起訴，就是因為這樣環環相扣下來，所以目前即使提高了，你看看，結果數千件的檢舉案只裁處30件，而且通通用緩起訴，難怪黃牛都不會怕，對不對？難怪黃牛都不會怕！這到底是哪一個問題……"],["林警政監明佐：跟委員報告，我們統計到4月29日，按照文創法第十條之一第三項刑事罰的部分……"],["柯委員志恩：你講快一點，因為我後面還有。"],["林警政監明佐：我們已經移送6件6人……"],["柯委員志恩：6件6人，這跟我們所預期的還是不太一樣。然後我要特別問，文化部說有3件，你們說有5件，到底有幾件送地檢署？不知道！","另外，我還要看一個大家比較有興趣的，剛剛已經有人提到的，黃牛大戶看到修法，BLACKPINK在高雄辦演唱會，機器人就可以橫掃1,000多張的門票，原價是8,800，他可以加價到1萬3,000到9萬，而且光是這一位大黃牛，你知道嗎？他就講過了，兩場演唱會狠賺2,000多萬，他用機器人掃票掃了1,000多張，然後用外掛的方法大量取票，新法最多只能罰300萬，他賺了2,000多萬，請問這個法有用嗎？BLACKPINK讓這個黃牛賺了2,000多萬，結果我們最高罰則是300萬，還不見得每個都可以罰得到，以這種對比原則，難怪他覺得無關痛癢。如果他是用加價販賣的方法，你看，用票面來講，起碼要罰8,800萬，但是對大戶來說，他用不正的方法來取票，罰的都比加價販售來得輕很多，而且重點是黃牛入行7年，還從來沒有被檢舉，也沒有被開罰過，一場演唱會賺了2,000多萬，這個還不斷地在上演當中，所以你怎麼來看待？難怪黃牛老神在在！你看，而且用不正方法來掃票，還罰得比較輕，這種現象是非常詭異的，你不覺得這個法很奇怪嗎？"],["林警政監明佐：法的部分可能要請主管部會回答。"],["柯委員志恩：我們今天就一一提出來，我想整個彙整之後，可能都要跟我們提出報告，還有包括所謂的實名制。為了避免黃牛，現在粉絲都高喊實名制，次長剛剛也提到了，有這個補助要點，但是現在成效到底是怎麼樣？不好意思！次長。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，以今年（113年）來說，已經有28場演唱會會採取實名制，據我們的瞭解，有3場是部分實名制。"],["柯委員志恩：對，但是你知道有很多的主辦單位喜歡強調演唱會門票秒殺來作為他們宣傳的賣點，為什麼？諷刺的是黃牛的掃票舉動也能夠讓業者達到秒殺的效果，即使是IU的演唱會實行所謂的實名制，但是對不起！如果是可以修改個資的實名制，還是讓黃牛有鑽漏洞的機會，如果粉絲把他的資料全部交給黃牛代購，也可以變成黃牛的個資，所以即使是實名制……"],["王次長時思：對，它有風險。"],["柯委員志恩：對，還是有非常大的風險，而且你的機器準備的不夠，20幾臺機器，光是入場，可能就要拉到2到3個小時，因為那整個非常反復，所以即使是實名制，也造成了一些困擾，還有造成一些社會現象，我說實在的，到目前為止還是沒有辦法像韓國與日本一樣運作地這麼樣子的熟悉，對不對？"],["王次長時思：實名制現在看起來是最有效能阻擋黃牛的方式，因為目前實名制不是強制的，所以我們才會用補助的方式……"],["柯委員志恩：對，你就是鼓勵的方法，而且很多工讀生的審核一次就能夠入場，不像日、韓，他們即使用實名制，還是有非常多的層次，所以他們可以達到。這個部分即使要實名制，我覺得未來對於很多的漏洞、很多的細節真的還是要加強取締，這才有辦法。","總而言之，我們為什麼今天要排這樣的案子？就是修了這個法之後，黃牛繼續地猖獗，光是想想剛剛說的，他兩場就可以賺2,000多萬，很多民眾都在滴血，所以我還是希望，不管是警政署或是文化部，還是體育署，都能夠在近期當中給我們一份未來更積極作法的報告，可以嗎？"],["王次長時思：好，可以。"],["柯委員志恩：好，一個禮拜之內，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：謝謝。現在請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王次長時思","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":3.8615937500000004,"speaker_score":0.855},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王次長時思","start":4.418468750000001,"end":6.257843750000001,"speaker_score":0.855},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"柯委員志恩","start":9.93659375,"end":10.78034375,"speaker_score":0.955},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王次長時思","start":10.442843750000002,"end":41.84721875,"speaker_score":0.855},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王次長時思","start":42.032843750000005,"end":43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有些不判罰 原因都是什麼?"},{"start":262.02,"end":268.003,"text":"他說呢雖然黃牛有這個所謂的轉售的意圖但是警員你們的員警因為都是調出人來嘛他們並沒有買售門票的意思所以沒有辦法構成圖利的行為為什麼會是這個樣子那表示你送老半天進去他都用這個方法來不判判那難怪黃牛這麼樣的囂張嘛不是嗎然後呢你那個警政署到底是一個法規的問題還是法官自由行政的問題還是你們偵查的方法"},{"start":289.844,"end":305.76,"text":"可不可以回答一下剛剛委員所提到那是一個個案的偵查手法那目前文創法跟運採條例修法過之後對於這樣的行為已經有專法包括鐵路法也是一樣對不起喔 那個屬長我還在特別問你即使有這兩個文創法還有這個部分"},{"start":309.744,"end":328.871,"text":"目前為止都還是用社會法來辦啦目前為止都用社會法來辦而且文創法跟運發條例不分只有兩件事那到底是因為警政機關都是用社會法來移辦還是到底是怎麼樣因為基層警察告訴我他們已經詐騙案已經分身罰數了他們根本沒有在辦這個因為真的是壓力"},{"start":330.111,"end":330.511,"text":"我們統計到4月29日按照這個"},{"start":359.929,"end":377.672,"text":"文創法第10條之一第三項行政法的部分我們已經移送6件6人6件6人這跟我們所預期的還是不太一樣然後我要特別文化部所有3件你們所有5件到底有幾件送進建署不知道但是我還要看一個大家比較有興趣的剛剛已經有人提到的"},{"start":378.132,"end":382.734,"text":"黃牛到戶看到修法Bird Pink在我們高雄辦這個演唱會就能夠機器人就可以橫掃一千多張的門票而且原價是八千八還可以救到一萬三到九萬一萬三到九萬而且光是這一位大黃牛你知道嗎他就講過了兩場演唱會很賺兩千多萬"},{"start":401.303,"end":402.987,"text":"他用機器人掃票掃了一千多．然後用外掛的方法大量取票新法最多只能罰三百萬他賺了兩千多萬請問這個法有用嗎"},{"start":412.705,"end":412.785,"text":"黃牛票氾濫"},{"start":442.705,"end":443.946,"text":"法的部分可能要請主管部會回答"},{"start":466.471,"end":484.536,"text":"我覺得這個就是我們今天就一一提出來我想這個整個彙整之後呢可能都要跟我們提出報告還有包括所謂的這個實名制喔畢竟連黃國昌粉絲都高喊實名制但是呢也提出了這個次長剛剛也提到了有這個補助要點但現在成效到底是怎麼樣不好意思次長"},{"start":485.643,"end":490.609,"text":"跟委員報告以今年113年來說已經有28場演唱會會採取實名制對 但是你知道實名制有很多的主辦單位喜歡強調演唱會秒殺來作為他宣傳的賣點為什麼 諷刺的是黃牛的掃票舉動也能夠讓業者"},{"start":503.285,"end":503.365,"text":"他有風險"},{"start":523.933,"end":524.933,"text":"實名制現在看起來是最有效的阻擋黃牛的方式那所以"},{"start":550.178,"end":569.965,"text":"實名制沒有因為他沒有辦法是強目前不是強制的對你就是鼓勵的方法而且很多公讀生他的審核一次就能夠入場不像日韓他其實用實名制他還是有非常多的層次所以他可以達到所以這個部分即使要實名制我覺得未來真的對於很多的漏洞很多的細節真的還是要強加的舉例我覺得這個才有辦法不過總而言之我還是希望各部會對於黃牛的阻止我們為什麼今天要排這樣的一個案子就是"},{"start":577.407,"end":577.547,"text":"謝謝柯志恩教委謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:00:20.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:00:22.290000+08:00","text":"（10時）非常謝謝我們的主席，我請文化部跟體育署。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T10:00:22.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:00:22.970000+08:00","text":"有請文化部跟體育署。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-04-29T10:00:23.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:00:23.030000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:00:23.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:00:47.703000+08:00","text":"謝謝兩位，我想我們過去查辦黃牛都是用社維法第六十四條第二款，目前為止，我們很明顯的就是沒有辦法達到阻嚇的效果，所以文化部修了文創法，體育署去年也修了運動產業發展法，在今年1月就要來實施。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:00:47.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:00:49.765000+08:00","text":"可是剛剛已經非常多的委員提過了，即使是這樣子的部分，罰鍰提高了，刑度也提升了，兩位身為部門的主管者，你們認為目前的黃牛問題有解決嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:00:49.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:00:49.905000+08:00","text":"回答是或不是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-04-29T10:00:49.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:00:50.125000+08:00","text":"誠如剛剛跟委員的回報，黃牛的問題絕對是比之前緩和很多。","quality":0.52},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:00:50.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:00:50.406000+08:00","text":"你們認為有解決，那鄭署長呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:00:50.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:00:50.446000+08:00","text":"你認為呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-04-29T10:01:10.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:01:13.688000+08:00","text":"目前有比較好一點的現象，但是一樣還是不夠的。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:01:14.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:01:22.551000+08:00","text":"有比較好，但是不夠，大家都認為好像有下降了，不過剛剛很多委員也特別提到，你看以這個數據來說，我們就從文化部的檢舉黃牛區來說，這個地方提到裁處，成案率大概是28.9%，然後不正的方法，成案率，不好意思只有4.5%，所以是28.9跟4.5，如果你要告訴我說，這個是有一些成效，我想今天在場很多的委員大概都會有異議，這是為什麼到目前為止我們會有一些爭議。","quality":0.52},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:01:22.551000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:01:34.236000+08:00","text":"我要特別請問一下鄭署長，體育署有沒有比照文化部設立檢舉黃牛專區的網站？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-04-29T10:01:34.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:01:34.356000+08:00","text":"報告委員，有。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:01:34.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:01:34.656000+08:00","text":"有是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:01:34.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:01:34.917000+08:00","text":"你覺得好用嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-04-29T10:01:57.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:01.720000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這部分的確我在署內的主管週報有要求我們的產業組要再去優化。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:02.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:03.360000+08:00","text":"哇塞，真的是非常難用！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:03.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:06.361000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下有多難用，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:06.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:15.623000+08:00","text":"目前你要先找到檢舉黃牛專區的兩種方法，比較複雜是從首頁上方的公告專區，再點新聞專區，再到左邊的資訊總覽才可以看到。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:16.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:22.344000+08:00","text":"第二種方法就是直接在首頁的bar可以看到，你如果不去特別點它的話，它要慢慢跑、慢慢跑，署長知道跑多少秒嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:22.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:22.644000+08:00","text":"你知道跑多少秒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:22.644000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:23.921333+08:00","text":"我告訴你，起碼10秒以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:23.921333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:25.198667+08:00","text":"哇塞，我們這個資訊的時代，大家連等3秒鐘都沒有辦法，你要10秒鐘！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:25.198667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:26.476000+08:00","text":"最荒謬的是，很多民眾找不到運動賽事是放在哪裡，他直接跑到文化部的檢舉黃牛專區去檢舉，目前體育署提供的資料就只有兩件，這是體育署的宣傳不力，還是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭署長世忠","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:26.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:26.596000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這部分我們來優化。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:47.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:02:56.121000+08:00","text":"你們當然要優化，而且我們真的是誠如剛剛大家所提到的，包括次長，你們兩位部會首長，這個黃牛檢舉的專區，有沒有辦法整合成一個平臺啊？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:02:56.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:00.505000+08:00","text":"就整合成一個平臺，數發部有沒有辦法有這樣的相關建議？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:01.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:14.877000+08:00","text":"數發部，你們好像覺得都可以來做程式上面的撰寫，我真的覺得，如果沒有辦法的話，乾脆找最近很紅的臺灣地震速報app的那個高中生來幫忙，可能好一點，會不會？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:14.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:24.351500+08:00","text":"數發部真的要很努力，否則的話，真的是沒有辦法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:24.351500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:33.826000+08:00","text":"接下來，為什麼這個部分大家都覺得，剛剛因為轉售二手的票券，很多人就在講，大家都知道有這些社團，每個人都已經提出有非常多的社團，然後你們有沒有主動，我現在只問主動，很多時候你們要收到告發才會去查，請問你們有沒有主動去對這些所謂的社團，看它能不能夠下架，有沒有主動來做這樣的事情？","quality":0.294},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:33.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:34.986000+08:00","text":"我現在是不是可以請警政署的代表林明佐警政監來回答？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:35.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:35.807000+08:00","text":"警政署有沒有主動調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林警政監明佐","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:35.807000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:52.861000+08:00","text":"報告，有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:52.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:53.221000+08:00","text":"你們有啊？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:54.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:55.663000+08:00","text":"到底是誰管？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:55.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:03:56.703000+08:00","text":"我都不曉得，是文化部嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:03:56.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:05.509000+08:00","text":"大家都認為可不可以下架，因為民眾看到這些，就會想要進去，可是如果沒有主動調查，但是警政署我真的要說，真的有嗎？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:05.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:09.751000+08:00","text":"因為你看看，你們通常都是用釣魚的方法，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:09.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:20.618000+08:00","text":"通常警政署裡面的警察都用釣魚的方法喬裝成買家，然後捉出這些黃牛，問題是當警政署送出法辦之後，你覺得法院會不會有判罰？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:20.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:20.758000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林警政監明佐","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:20.758000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:23.612000+08:00","text":"目前我們移送的案件都進入偵審。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:23.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:23.952000+08:00","text":"然後你覺得要怎麼樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:23.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:26.933000+08:00","text":"大家最生氣的是，我到司法院的裁判書系統去查，解鎖過去黃牛違反社護法移送的判例，你知道嗎？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:26.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:27.914000+08:00","text":"真的是要看運氣，有些法官有判罰，有些不判罰，原因都是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:42.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:44.281000+08:00","text":"他說雖然黃牛有所謂轉售的意圖，但是警員，因為都是你們的員警釣出人來，他們並沒有買受門票的意思，所以沒有辦法構成圖利的行為，為什麼會是這個樣子？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:44.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:46.743000+08:00","text":"這表示你送了老半天進去，他都用這個方法來判，都是不判罰，難怪黃牛這麼樣的囂張嘛？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:46.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:04:46.843000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:04:47.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:05:10.525000+08:00","text":"警政署，它到底是法規的問題，還是法官自由心證的問題，還是你們偵查方法的問題，可不可以回答一下？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林警政監明佐","start":"2024-04-29T10:05:11.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:05:23.318000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員所提的那是一個個案的偵查手法，目前文創法及運彩條例修法過之後，對於這樣的行為，已經有專法，包括鐵路法也是一樣……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:05:23.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:05:31.785000+08:00","text":"對不起，警政署，我還是要特別問你，即使有這兩個法，文創法還有運發條例，目前為止都還是用社維法來辦！","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:05:32.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:05:42.588000+08:00","text":"目前為止都用社維法來辦，而且文創法及運發條例只有兩件事，到底是因為警政機關都是用社維法來移辦，還是到底是怎麼樣？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:05:42.588000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:05:45.095667+08:00","text":"因為基層警察告訴我，他們處理詐騙案已經分身乏術了，根本沒有在辦這個，因為真的是壓力，沒有辦法達到這個地方，還有就是每次送到地檢署，也都是緩起訴，就是因為這樣環環相扣下來，所以目前即使提高了，你看看，結果數千件的檢舉案只裁處30件，而且通通用緩起訴，難怪黃牛都不會怕，對不對？","quality":0.281},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:05:45.095667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:05:47.603333+08:00","text":"難怪黃牛都不會怕！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:05:47.603333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:05:50.111000+08:00","text":"這到底是哪一個問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林警政監明佐","start":"2024-04-29T10:05:50.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:06:24.034000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們統計到4月29日，按照文創法第十條之一第三項刑事罰的部分……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:06:24.034000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:06:25.034000+08:00","text":"你講快一點，因為我後面還有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林警政監明佐","start":"2024-04-29T10:06:24.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:06:26.117000+08:00","text":"我們已經移送6件6人……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:06:26.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:06:29.101000+08:00","text":"6件6人，這跟我們所預期的還是不太一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:06:29.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:06:33.847000+08:00","text":"然後我要特別問，文化部說有3件，你們說有5件，到底有幾件送地檢署？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:06:34.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:06:34.347000+08:00","text":"不知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:06:35.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:06:42.254000+08:00","text":"另外，我還要看一個大家比較有興趣的，剛剛已經有人提到的，黃牛大戶看到修法，BLACKPINK在高雄辦演唱會，機器人就可以橫掃1,000多張的門票，原價是8,800，他可以加價到1萬3,000到9萬，而且光是這一位大黃牛，你知道嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:06:42.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:07:02.987000+08:00","text":"他就講過了，兩場演唱會狠賺2,000多萬，他用機器人掃票掃了1,000多張，然後用外掛的方法大量取票，新法最多只能罰300萬，他賺了2,000多萬，請問這個法有用嗎？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:07:02.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:07:12.916500+08:00","text":"BLACKPINK讓這個黃牛賺了2,000多萬，結果我們最高罰則是300萬，還不見得每個都可以罰得到，以這種對比原則，難怪他覺得無關痛癢。","quality":0.035},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:07:12.916500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:07:22.846000+08:00","text":"如果他是用加價販賣的方法，你看，用票面來講，起碼要罰8,800萬，但是對大戶來說，他用不正的方法來取票，罰的都比加價販售來得輕很多，而且重點是黃牛入行7年，還從來沒有被檢舉，也沒有被開罰過，一場演唱會賺了2,000多萬，這個還不斷地在上演當中，所以你怎麼來看待？","quality":0.009},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:07:22.846000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:07:32.775500+08:00","text":"難怪黃牛老神在在！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:07:32.775500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:07:42.705000+08:00","text":"你看，而且用不正方法來掃票，還罰得比較輕，這種現象是非常詭異的，你不覺得這個法很奇怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林警政監明佐","start":"2024-04-29T10:07:42.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:07:43.926000+08:00","text":"法的部分可能要請主管部會回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:08:06.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:08:14.373000+08:00","text":"我們今天就一一提出來，我想整個彙整之後，可能都要跟我們提出報告，還有包括所謂的實名制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:08:15.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:08:22.635000+08:00","text":"為了避免黃牛，現在粉絲都高喊實名制，次長剛剛也提到了，有這個補助要點，但是現在成效到底是怎麼樣？","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:08:22.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:08:24.536000+08:00","text":"不好意思！次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-04-29T10:08:25.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:08:27.585000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，以今年（113年）來說，已經有28場演唱會會採取實名制，據我們的瞭解，有3場是部分實名制。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:08:27.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:08:29.908000+08:00","text":"對，但是你知道有很多的主辦單位喜歡強調演唱會門票秒殺來作為他們宣傳的賣點，為什麼？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:08:29.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:08:30.589000+08:00","text":"諷刺的是黃牛的掃票舉動也能夠讓業者達到秒殺的效果，即使是IU的演唱會實行所謂的實名制，但是對不起！","quality":0.37},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:08:30.589000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:08:43.345000+08:00","text":"如果是可以修改個資的實名制，還是讓黃牛有鑽漏洞的機會，如果粉絲把他的資料全部交給黃牛代購，也可以變成黃牛的個資，所以即使是實名制……","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-04-29T10:08:43.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:08:43.365000+08:00","text":"對，它有風險。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:08:43.365000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:09:03.933000+08:00","text":"對，還是有非常大的風險，而且你的機器準備的不夠，20幾臺機器，光是入場，可能就要拉到2到3個小時，因為那整個非常反復，所以即使是實名制，也造成了一些困擾，還有造成一些社會現象，我說實在的，到目前為止還是沒有辦法像韓國與日本一樣運作地這麼樣子的熟悉，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-04-29T10:09:03.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:09:33.319000+08:00","text":"實名制現在看起來是最有效能阻擋黃牛的方式，因為目前實名制不是強制的，所以我們才會用補助的方式……","quality":0.614},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:09:33.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:09:42.222000+08:00","text":"對，你就是鼓勵的方法，而且很多工讀生的審核一次就能夠入場，不像日、韓，他們即使用實名制，還是有非常多的層次，所以他們可以達到。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:09:43.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:09:48.224000+08:00","text":"這個部分即使要實名制，我覺得未來對於很多的漏洞、很多的細節真的還是要加強取締，這才有辦法。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:09:48.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:09:49.845000+08:00","text":"總而言之，我們為什麼今天要排這樣的案子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:09:49.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:09:52.365667+08:00","text":"就是修了這個法之後，黃牛繼續地猖獗，光是想想剛剛說的，他兩場就可以賺2,000多萬，很多民眾都在滴血，所以我還是希望，不管是警政署或是文化部，還是體育署，都能夠在近期當中給我們一份未來更積極作法的報告，可以嗎？","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-04-29T10:09:52.365667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:09:54.886333+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2024-04-29T10:09:54.886333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:09:57.407000+08:00","text":"好，一個禮拜之內，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T10:09:57.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:09:57.547000+08:00","text":"謝謝柯志恩召委。謝謝。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席（柯委員志恩）","start":"2024-04-29T10:09:58.047000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:10:00.332714+08:00","text":"現在請葉元之委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}