{"error":false,"id":["151853"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":151853,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151853","日期":"2024-04-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-04-29T10:54:19+08:00","結束時間":"2024-04-29T11:05:32+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:13","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e62ba0de65552e820a12d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eee2357e572c87655e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:54:19 - 11:05:32","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時54分）謝謝主席，有請我們秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：秘書長，辛苦了！我在這裡聆聽了其他委員的質詢，我真的還是奉勸在司法及法制委員會質詢的委員確實都需要把法律的脈絡、連條文的本質都要搞清楚。我早上也聽到現在在場的羅委員說他個人是傾向支持廢監察院，非常好！如果未來有可能修憲的話，希望國民黨內的有志之士要言所當言、為所當為。我為什麼有感而發呢？就在上一屆我們終於有機會提出修憲案的時候，我吳思瑤就是立法院第一個提出廢考監之修憲提案的立委，而當時在修憲案的整個討論當中，那時候的李俊俋委員也提出了很多專業的見解，都有投入，所以廢考監是民主進步黨長期以來的主張。但是在上一屆的修憲委員會從頭到尾以不出席杯葛的方式來阻撓廢考監提案的是中國國民黨，在程序上以不來開會杯葛廢考監之修憲提案而被討論的就是中國國民黨。甚至我們也一併來還原，當初我們希望能夠給年輕世代更好的參政權的空間跟自由，我們提起我們憲法所規定公民權的年限下修到十八歲，也是在國民黨的消極杯葛之下而非常遺憾的功虧一簣。這是還原真相，如果國民黨的羅智強委員您願意支持廢監察院，在未來修憲的過程我們一起來加入廢考監的程序，好，謝謝。","現在進入我今天的主題，我要說對國民黨版監察院組織法的修法萬萬要三思！這一次的修法聚焦在第三條之一第一款、第六款要刪除，我認為這就嚴重地限縮了監委任命跟監察院組成的多元性，進一步地更破壞了憲法權力分立的原則，秘書長，是不是？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，我們是這樣認為。"],["吳委員思瑤：我觀察的兩個重點，也期期以為不可的就是這兩個條文款項的刪除就會限縮了監委的組成……"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果第一款跟第六款拿掉的話，我們會少掉三分之一甚至到四成的比例是沒有辦法擔任監委的，包括院長、副院長。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，監察院的常設委員會有非常多，就如同立法院，它需要內政、外交、社會福利、財經、教育文化、交通採購、司法獄政，另外plus就是國家人權委員會，它需要的專業面向是非常的多元，所以我們都希望監察委員的任命來自於非常豐沛的社會人才庫並從裡頭來挑選。如果修法限縮了第一款跟第六款，將迫使未來監察委員可以被提名任用的人才來源只剩下法界、公務體系以及學者這些面向，相對的，在取才的管道上就有所限縮，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，請看下一頁，這個是我自己努力去整理的，我並沒有獲得你們內部在當初提名時是用哪一款，但是我自己很努力的去整理出來，所以秘書長可以指正。正因為現在有監察院組織法第三條之一第一款規定監察委員可以延攬曾任立委一任或是直轄市議員二任以上的人，而且他要有好的表現，社會形象是佳的，專業能力是強的，因為有這樣一個條款的授權，你看，第4屆有6位，像院長王建也是用這一條，洪昭男、黃煌雄、趙昌平、陳健民、錢林慧君，第4屆有6位是援用這一款。第5屆有田秋堇、章仁香、江綺雯、趙永清、瓦歷斯．貝林，這是我自己整理的。在第6屆的副院長李鴻鈞也是用這個條款，還有葉宜津、王榮璋、賴振昌、范巽綠、陳景峻。"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟吳委員報告，王榮璋委員這一次是用第七款，因為他是對人權議題特別關心，他是人權委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：OK，因為他本身也曾任前立委，又是人權方面的專家。所以如果拿掉了第一款，你看這些優秀人才都進不了監察院替我們做相關的監察工作，而且我更要說，這裡頭超越黨派啊！有新黨的、有親民黨的、有國民黨的、有民進黨還有台聯，所以只要是好的人才，他曾任立委、曾任直轄市議員，他有足夠的專業，在政治經驗上跟政策的能量上，有助於他履行監委的職責。"],["李秘書長俊俋：過去81年寫在第一款，最主要的理由就是因為立委或是直轄市兩任以上，他對監督政府比較有經驗。"],["吳委員思瑤：更有經驗。"],["李秘書長俊俋：他沒有銜接上的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒有錯。秘書長替我補充了一個很重要的前提，民代的經驗真的有助於監委查案、辦案。我們再來整理出第六款，如果我整理錯，秘書長也可以指正，我們同樣因為有了第六款的授權，可以豐富監委組成的多元面向，第4屆就有劉興善、馬以工、吳豐山；第5屆連前院長張博雅、孫大川、王幼玲、仉桂美、王美玉、林盛豐、楊芳玲都是適用第六款；第6屆有4位，包括現任的陳菊院長、林盛豐監委、王美玉監委，浦忠成監委。第六款是什麼？就是他富有政治經驗或是主持新聞文化事業，有相當的正面聲譽。所以這個部分如果連第六款都砍掉了，這些……"],["李秘書長俊俋：第5屆的院長、副院長就通通不見了。"],["吳委員思瑤：就通通不見了對不對？所以這樣子的砍條款，要限縮監委的人才來源，我認為這是帶著有色的眼鏡，這是有針對性、有選擇性，而且是不顧監察院的職權行使，它甚至就是要癱瘓監察院，我這樣說，您的理解……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我剛剛報告的時候說明過，監察院最重要的是委員組成的多元性，這樣子的修法會限縮我們的多元性。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有錯，謝謝。回到憲政體制，我再一次說非常的遺憾，司法及法制委員會再一次修法凌駕憲法，就五權分立的憲法運作原則，提名權在行政權，就監委的部分是總統提名，立法權是行使同意權，這是一個非常清楚的憲政權力分立，可是現在的立法委員都想要取代行政權，想要取代行政院長、想要取代總統的權力，他不只要同意權，還要剝奪提名權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我剛說明過了，如果限縮這兩個條款，其實相對程度也限縮了總統的提名權。"],["吳委員思瑤：是啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：總統有提名權，立法院有同意權，這是兩個不同的概念。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以違憲的條文不要再來了。這次還有一個條文，是要監委行使職權超越黨派，看起來講得好像很正面，但事實上，我認為它是一個規範過當的修法，我們當然認為監察委員需要超出黨派，只要他任監委，他就要退出政黨的活動，不再參與政治活動，但是現在如果要把他擴大到10年內曾加入政黨或參與任何政治活動者，不得為監察委員，這不就又剝奪了憲法保障的個人參政自由嗎？而且10年是非常過當的限制，秘書長請說。"],["李秘書長俊俋：集會結社的自由是人民應有的權利，10年前我沒有辦法預期我會不會當監察委員，我不會考慮這個嘛！所以有限縮人民集會結社的疑慮。第二個部分是，這裡的政治活動，其實定義不清楚，它的範圍到底到什麼程度？參加遊行算不算政治活動？參加call in算不算政治活動？或是其他。針對這個部分，除了監察委員必須獨立行使職權以外，我們的自律規範也規範得很清楚，不能助講、不能提供輔選，都不行！我們的自律規範規範得很清楚，所以沒有必要在組織法裡面再行這樣的規範。"],["吳委員思瑤：政治活動難以定義，而且也牴觸了憲法保障的參政權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：最後一項，我也有感而發，就發生在立法院，立法院修正我們自己的內規，正副院長要議事中立，也是正副院長要退出政治活動，但是我們坐在這裡，我們心知肚明，每一次的表決，我們的副院長都已經加入表決的行列，他沒有做到議事中立，如果要退出政治活動，韓國瑜院長跟江啟臣副院長有沒有帶頭作為表率來履行立法院職權行使相關法規的議事中立原則呢？所以要刮監委的鬍子之前，也要刮刮立法委員自己的，我做這樣的補充。","所以最後我還是希望大家理性看待修法，立委再大也不能比憲法大，立委再大也不能把手伸到監察院裡頭去管東管西，而且是過當的管制，我希望大家能夠三思。謝謝秘書長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","因為早上到現在都沒休息，我們現在先休息5分鐘，5分鐘回來之後，有兩件臨時提案，5分鐘回來的時候處理，謝謝各位。","休息（11時5分）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席：我們現在開始開會。處理臨時提案，共兩案，請一併宣讀，宣讀後，再逐案處理，請宣讀。","一、","案由：","有鑑於監察院院長陳菊遭檢舉於2023年12月30日赴高雄舊城教會違法為特定立委候選人輔選，事後，陳菊先是透過辦公室否認輔選，宣稱係受邀前往教會彌撒，之後證實12月30日當天舊城教會並未舉辦彌撒活動。今年3月21日，陳菊再次透過辦公室改口當日為探友行程，前後說法不一，為何一再說謊，心態可議。","陳菊為特定立委候選人輔選之行為，明顯違反《監察院監察委員自律規範》第二條第二項「監察委員於任職期間不得從事下列政治活動或行為：……三、為公職候選人助選。」之規定；本院為全國最高民意機關，有責任究責陳菊此一違法行徑，爰此，建請監察院依據《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》第二條第一項第一款：「本會之任務如左：一、關於人民陳訴之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項。」啟動調查，避免監察院長一再敗壞官箴，讓國人對監察院愈加失望。","提案人：黃國昌　　傅崐萁　　林思銘　　翁曉玲　　吳宗憲","二、","案由：","有鑒於諸多民眾陳情及反應，監察委員高涌誠之行使職權，從曲棍球案、卡管案、論文案及近期世台會總幹事羅益世回台遭強制驅逐出境案，均有政治介入的疑慮，有違《監察院監察委員自律規範》「監察委員依法行使職權，應超出黨派，保持中立」之規定，恐有失職之處。","依《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》，監察委員如有違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範者，可移送紀律委員會。然參照前監察委員陳師孟之爭議過程，並無任一監察委員行使移送監察院紀律委員會。","爰此，立法院為代表民意的憲政機關，為有效反映民意，建請監察院依據《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》第二條第一項第一款「關於人民陳訴之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項」，將監察委員高涌誠移送監察院紀律委員會，以調查有無民眾認為違法失職之處。","提案人：羅智強　　翁曉玲　　傅崐萁　　林思銘"],["主席：我們現在先處理臨時提案第1案，請問提案委員有無補充說明？好，請補充。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子其實剛剛在詢答的過程當中，我想應該已經表達得很清楚了，因為去年我開始公開檢舉這件事情，不過按照今天詢答的內容，監察院秘書長說沒有人檢舉，所以整個自律的程序都還沒有啟動，我覺得從監察院的角度上面來看，監察院在面對自家人是不是有違法輔選這件事情，恐怕不是監察院院長自己說了就算了，如果這個事情是監察院院長自己就說了算，沒有啟動任何自律調查的程序，真的是讓人殊難想像啊！以後如果要按照相同的標準，任何要被糾舉、要被糾正、要被彈劾的人，他也可以跟陳菊一樣，有樣學樣，自己發一個新聞稿說自己的新聞稿裡面已經講得很清楚了，這個事情沒有再什麼樣子的說明或者是調查的必要。這個顯然可能跟我們對於監察院在被廢止以前所應該扮演的角色，以及所期待的標準，大相徑庭。既然今天在詢答的過程當中，秘書長已經很清楚的說了，目前沒有任何的啟動程序來加以調查，而依照監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法，只要有人民陳述的話，他們就要啟動調查，我今天就公開而且直接做了這樣子的檢舉，啟動他們的自律調查檢舉。以上說明，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請問機關有沒有要補充說明？"],["李秘書長俊俋：依據我們的自律規範，這個部分任何人如果認為公務員涉有違失，可以向監察院檢舉，本院就會依照法定程序處理，所以今天的提案兩個都算是人民提出的檢舉案，我們就依法定程序處理，但是裡面有一些文字是不是可以建議做修正？"],["主席：謝謝，柯總召。"],["柯委員建銘：這不是政治鬥爭，什麼才叫做政治鬥爭？到底有沒有去瞭解當天的情況是怎麼樣？有真正地在場嗎？陳菊院長也一再地發新聞稿表示，當天車上有酒，然後就用這個看圖片說故事。黃國昌委員，你做為這樣的打手，反正對於不同立場的你就窮追猛打，看圖說故事。我們要瞭解，剛才秘書長也講過，人民檢舉就是人民檢舉嘛！你可以檢舉呀！假如是院際之間的事情，可以由立法院發動檢舉，他們要啟動內部的調查層級已經到紀律委員會，假如照這樣的標準的話，權力分立原則在什麼地方？今天坐在我對面的傅崐萁率中訪團到中國訪問……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要再……賴清德嘛！"],["柯委員建銘：你聽我講話嘛！你說是和平之旅、破冰之旅，但我看這是賣臺之旅吧！如果這樣可以的話，行政院或監察院可以行文給立法院送紀律委員會嗎？這也太離譜了吧！黃國昌你要聽人家講，你不要整天只會嘿嘿叫，覺得只有你講的才是對的，事實真相是怎麼樣，你有沒有搞清楚？"],["主席：好，鍾佳濱委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我們對於委員會跟院會之間的職權，我想在司法及法制委員會的委員會跟其他委員會相較，我們有更高的要求，我這邊也請主席可以稍微釐清一下，因為委員會在坐很多委員過去在學生時代也擔任過學生議會的議員，都知道議事規則，其實目前的委員會是承院會之命，進行包括法案的審查、包括議案的審查，當然在施政報告總質詢之後也會開始讓各部會向各委員會進行業務報告。委員會本身的臨時提案就被拘束在這些院會交給委員會的工作當中，所以一般我們委員會的臨時提案多半是針對業務報告的部門，請它進一步地提供補充的說明，或者是在法案的審理過程當中，需要業務機關提出必要的資訊，我們才能據以審議法案，或者我們在審議預算的過程當中，我們需要提供過去執行的證明。","這些或許在地方議會稱之為「索資」，但是在委員會是一個常態，我們要求受監督機關，就是行政院，包括各部會因為我們受院會的委託所進行的這些各類審查，在委員會進行的時候是我們所必要的，所以我們才作成了決議，因此我們今天這兩個提案在場，我們必須審視這兩個提案跟院會交付給本委員會審查的法律修正案，其中的關聯性是什麼。如果能夠具體說明，我相信本委員會作成的決議比較上就比較符合國會運作委員會體例的一個職權行使。但是我還是要提醒，誠如過去我在當輪值召委的時候也提醒過委員，其實監察院也好，司法院也好，它都是跟立法院一樣的憲政機關，而憲政機關只有行政院依憲法向立法院負責，立法院包括院會也不會對於司法院或監察院在法案跟預算以外，它的獨立行使職權有任何的要求，也不具有這樣的權力，大法官的解釋都非常地清楚。所以我剛剛有點遺憾地聽到了我們監察院秘書長說，這個提案他可能會視為一般人民陳情案來處理，如果是一般人民陳情案，其實就根本不須要委員會在這邊做討論。","本席剛剛在質詢時候，也就這樣的部分，包括有國民黨的總召，率團17人到中國去，其中有包括外交及國防委員會的委員才在本月上上週出席了院內的一個秘密會議。在這種情況之下，立法院有沒有去做列管，秘書長說委員的部分不在監察院的職權行使對象裡，但是立法院的公務員如果怠忽職守，是在監察院的調查糾正範圍內，所以他請本席……如果有提出，監察院當然就會來受理。所以如果是這樣子，我是建議主席這個案子作這樣的處理，既然提案委員有這樣的要求，監察院也會受理，是不是我們今天根本無待決議，就直接由委員個人向監察院提出這樣的檢舉，不管是檢舉立法院的公務員，對於涉密人員赴中的列管疏失，或者是對於其他機關有公務人員失職的部分，都可以移請監察院來做一個調查以為處置，我覺得這才符合憲政機關應有的作為，也符合本委員會承院會之命，受理進行預算或法案審查應有的作為，以上請主席可以跟大家作一個宣告，瞭解我們這兩個提案的處理方式。以上建議，謝謝。"],["主席：沒有，我這邊就依法處理了，我就依照規則處理。我覺得我沒有別的意思，就是一切依照規則處理。因為剛剛沈委員先舉手，我們先請沈委員發言。"],["沈委員發惠：主席、各位同仁。我想今天這兩個臨時提案，我們看一下其實大家都知道這個是政治性提案，因為依法來講，我們立法院是沒有任何權力的，依權力分立的原則，我們也沒有權力要求監察院幹嘛的。因此我看了兩個提案，雖說我們都是用「建請監察院」，但為什麼要用「建請」？因為我們知道、我們自己寫提案的人都知道我們沒有權力要求監察院做什麼嘛！這是第一件事。","第二件事，我看兩個臨時提案的核心精神，最核心的都是監察院監察委員自律規範，這個自律規範的「自律」兩字我不曉得大家是不是不太理解，就像我們立法院的自律規範，這個也不是法律。這裡又說「違反自律規範」有這個違法行逕，它就不是法啊！為什麼違法？既然是「自律」，為什麼今天立法院要求，又提案說要自律？今天如果說監察院哪個監察委員提個案子說立法院應該要把誰送立法院紀律委員會，這樣我們立法院可受得了？我們立委受得了嗎？這是權力分立的基本原則，所以我們大家還是講講道理啦！","這個自律規範就不是法律，說它違法，但它到底違了什麼法？這可能是助理寫的，因為在座各位的法學素養應該都不至於寫出這種文字啦！所以你們這個助理……請回去要求助理在寫這個臨時提案的文字時不要這樣子。明明是違反自律規範還寫違法，這個有點問題啦！","憲法增修條文第七條也明白地寫出我們監察委員要獨立行使職權，他就是獨立行使職權，我們這個臨時提案、羅智強委員的臨時提案這裡就指名哪一個監察委員辦什麼案子的時候，你們這些提案人認為他有政治介入的疑慮，但是憲法就已經寫了，他是獨立行使職權了，這個就像我們遇到司法案件恐龍法官，我們也不能說立法院決議哪一個法官的判決是有問題的，因為你個人可以對他有評價，但是我們立法院做成決議對於獨立行使職權的人行使職權的方法，我有意見，我認為是直接違反憲法賦予監察委員獨立行使職權的精神。尤其我們是立法院，我們是權力分立之中的一個角色，不是一般的民眾，這裡也不是政論節目、call in節目，所以我希望大家三思。如果要表決，我們當然是輸，因為主席又特別休息等傅崐萁總召趕到現場才開會，我們表決當然是輸，隨便你們，躺在這裡隨便你們，但是大家要講講道理，出去社會都有公評，我希望大家講講道理，以上。"],["主席：下一位請羅智強委員。","不過在此之前，我再把臨時提案1的文字補充一次，黃國昌委員的提案是「建請」監察院，不是命令監察院……"],["沈委員發惠：我有看到，剛剛也有講了，我們有看到2案都是建請。"],["主席：我解釋一下，以前在法院的時候，檢察官是具體求處多少年，後來被說具體有一點命令性，後來都是改成建請，因為「建請」就不會被認為是一個強制的要求，因為檢方無權干涉司法審判，所以它是用建請，要請各位再仔細看一下，臨時提案是用「建請」，跟五權分立沒有關係，我覺得這個話是有一點問題的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我們立法委員依法能不能建請監察委員移送自律？"],["黃委員國昌：主席，對不起！會議詢問。"],["主席：會議詢問要優先。"],["黃委員國昌：我只有一個簡單的問題，我們現在發言的狀態是不需要經主席同意，大家隨便按麥克風都可以發言嗎？"],["主席：依照行為法，是要由主席這邊決定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果是這樣子的話，我要拜託主席，請您執行這樣的規範，規範是怎麼樣都沒有關係，大家喜歡按麥克風發言就按麥克風發言，如果規範是這樣也沒有關係，說清楚、講明白；如果不是這樣的話，等一下沒有主席點到發言的，自己恣意的按麥克風發言，請主席主持會議制止，謝謝。"],["主席：好，依照立法委員行為法，在議程進行期間還是要由主席這邊來決定，要發言的人舉手發言，我這邊會請他發言，我們就不要按麥克風來干涉正在發言的委員，謝謝各位。","接下來請羅智強委員發言。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得在司法及法制委員會都是在看綠色迴力標大賽，真是驚奇萬分！什麼迴力標飛來飛去、打來打去，全部往民進黨身上招呼。我唸一句名言給大家聽「真是佩服啊！秘書長，我最後請教你一個問題，如果立法院說王建煊嚴重破壞官箴，要求監察院彈劾，你們會不會處理？」這句話是誰說的？這句話是在座的李俊俋秘書長當立委的時候說的，了不起啊！彈劾都可以啊！都可以要求彈劾。結果現在我們建請把陳菊、高涌誠送紀律委員會，李秘書長都講了本來就可以，結果這些護航部隊非常熱鬧精彩、迫不及待，迫不及待打臉李俊俋幹什麼？不好啦！都自己同黨同志，不需要這樣子，很難看的，這不是政治鬥爭，什麼是政治鬥爭？你擺明在鬥爭李俊俋，我看不下去，真的，我看不下去！","我要跟各位說句實在話，今天黃國昌委員的臨時提案就是表達立法院司法及法制委員會的態度，監察院陳菊到底有沒有違反行政中立，本來就應該好好調查瞭解，監察院不做，立法院司法及法制委員會就代表民意做出一個正式的決議，請監察院慎重考慮移送紀律委員會好好調查、調查，在機制上本來就可以，就像李俊俋都可以要求彈劾王建煊。各位知道當時的秘書長怎麼回答嗎？當時秘書長怎麼回答？李俊俋說忘了，問他說已經忘了，當時秘書長的回答是依程序進行，一樣，今天送出去就依程序進行，不要緊張，不要迴力標，不要再打李俊俋，都是同黨同志，照顧一下，謝謝。"],["主席：請問還有哪位委員要發言？","請莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝召委，我現在才知道羅智強和李俊俋那麼好，其實本席在看這個案子，監察委員或監察院長被檢舉的特定事項是有沒有為特定立委候選人輔選，這個倒是一個事實的問題，個別委員或一般民眾去檢舉，有事實的話，我不認為監察院連回答都不敢回答、都不用回答，尤其是黃國昌委員現在在立法院的分量是不可同日而語的。我倒覺得一個你可以自己去做檢舉的案子，要特別在立法院委員會裡面做表決，萬一表決沒有通過，不是很怪嗎？這個案子一看就知道充滿著政治性，我相信我們講黃國昌委員你這個案子充滿政治性，你也不能說我們講的沒有道理。我倒覺得像這種案件要讓它成案的話，不需要經過委員會就可以成案，就可以去做的事情，偏偏要捨棄這樣的檢舉方式，在委員會裡面做這樣的提案，我倒覺得是多此一舉。國民黨委員和提案人有你們的看法，我們表示尊重，民進黨很明顯的，我們也有不一樣的看法，不一樣的看法又不是一定要到最後用表決的方式，才可以達到你的目的，所以再請黃委員考慮一下。"],["主席：因為剛剛柯總召先舉手，先柯總召……"],["羅委員智強：主席，大家發言一次完就可以表決了，反正也沒什麼意思，不然現在就表決，我提議現在表決。不然吳思瑤先講啊……"],["主席：不然這樣好了，因為柯總召剛剛發言過一次，他們現在希望一人一次。"],["柯委員建銘：主席，你當主席一直被下面指揮就漏氣了，這樣可以嗎？"],["羅委員智強：那我要提停止討論喔！"],["柯委員建銘：你要怎麼提是一回事。"],["羅委員智強：總召，讓吳思瑤先講好不好？總召，你剛剛講過了，讓吳思瑤先講啦！"],["柯委員建銘：我們內部的事情不用你煩惱，好不好？"],["羅委員智強：報告主席，停止討論，現在表決。"],["柯委員建銘：什麼停止討論？"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下現在是什麼發言秩序？"],["柯委員建銘：已經登記完畢以後要停止討論？"],["主席：這樣好了，我們都一人發言一次，好不好？"],["柯委員建銘：突然更改遊戲規則，主席，你要做好啦！不要受到下面的指揮，你是檢察官……"],["主席：因為我剛才已經答應總召了，所以我們讓總召再發言一次，之後大家一人發言一次，國民黨這邊也一樣，我們讓議事順利一點。"],["柯委員建銘：大家加減聽一下啦！不要急啦！你們表決穩贏的，怕什麼？大家要有基本的民主素養，剛才提到李俊俋在委員會的發言，持平而論，我也在委員會發言講過王建煊應該下臺，可是立法院並不是作決議，是審查他們的預算案、法律案的時候做這樣的發言，各位要瞭解當年王建煊是怎麼講的，他說監察院就是瘋人院，應該把它關起來，他自己還去告裡面的監察委員，他最大的問題是什麼？他把國民黨一些不當黨產資料銷毀，這何其大事啊！你們要瞭解過去是怎麼樣的情形。王建煊還有在監察院裡面望彌撒等荒謬行為一大堆，所以立法院對於監察院的預算質詢的時候，提出一些看法不可以嗎？當然這不是決議案，今天你是用決議案，一個非事實的東西來追殺到底，陳菊院長也講得很清楚，他的酒是放在車上，不能看到一張照片就代表他去輔選，當天也沒有候選人在場。","黃國昌你是法學博士，我告訴你，大法官釋字第461號解釋，你自己看清楚，1998年的時候，那時候我們還是在野黨的時候，所有國民黨還有民進黨的委員都認為時任參謀總長的唐飛應該來立法院備詢，但是唐飛不來，後來去大法官解釋，第461號出來了以後，就是說因為唐飛當參謀總長，過去是不用備詢的，但是他有主導而且共同主導所有的國防預算以及國防政策，乃至於國防法案，所以他必須要來立法院備詢，第461號解釋出來是什麼？五院的院長，包括監察院院長、監察委員等獨立行使職權的，不用來立法院，但是要來的只有像秘書長要來，因為他是代表監察院來說明預算、法案，所以這個事情，像在今天是處理法案，所以秘書長必須來，這種很嚴謹的權力分立原則，五院院長你可以隨便來，五院院長我們自己越俎代庖說你們把你們的院長幹掉，送紀律委員會，我剛才講了嘛！只要行政院說傅崐萁親中賣臺，你們立法院一定要把……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要再罵賴清德，跟你講幾次，要教育你幾次……"],["柯委員建銘：你風度好一點……"],["傅委員崐萁：你是說幾遍啊？講完了沒？"],["柯委員建銘：不喜歡聽就出去嘛！沒關係，所以……"],["傅委員崐萁：為什麼他可以……"],["柯委員建銘：所以其他院可以也來指導……"],["主席：兩位總召……"],["柯委員建銘：所以這個道理很清楚啦！"],["主席：兩位總召，對，這樣好不好？就是我們現在先都冷靜一下……"],["柯委員建銘：你不制止他一下？"],["主席：對，所以我說都冷靜一下，柯總召，因為你第二次發言，可不可以簡短，趕快結束？因為後面還有……"],["柯委員建銘：所以大家要想清楚好不好……"],["主席：還有吳思瑤委員。"],["柯委員建銘：黃國昌委員你自己也是法學博士，看大法官釋字第461號，1998就釋出來了。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯總召，接下來請吳思瑤委員，然後下一位是翁曉玲委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：針對這兩個臨時提案，當然等一下會進入表決，但是我們在立法院還是要秉持我們的職責，我要做成發言的紀錄。今天的提案1跟提案2非常清楚的就是一個針對性跟選擇性的政治性提案，針對個案來透過決議的方式，我非常同意個別的委員你對於個別的個案提出你的看法、觀點，你可以利用你個人質詢的時間為之，大家互相尊重。但是因為今天這兩個提案都是要透過司法及法制委員會的共同決定，這當然就不可不慎啦！以多數然後就硬要把不適宜成為提案的案由，然後成為提案強行通過，我要再次說明我非常不認同這個說法。","就提案1的部分，我覺得這個很清楚的是一再地針對個人性，就陳菊院長有沒有在你所指涉的去年12月30號當天，他有沒有去助選，相關當事人第一個就是陳菊院長，他很清楚地說他是去教會訪友；第二個、被影射被助選的當事人，現在也是我們立法院的同事，他也很清楚的，他當天沒有在場，一個候選人沒有在場的場子可以被說成是替候選人造勢助選，所以相關當事人都清楚地澄清了，而且當下在那個教會也沒有被拍到任何助選相關的行為，看到黑影就開槍，隨便亂開槍，然後今天在這裡提案，當事人的澄清都一再地視而不見，這種積非成是，我實在非常沒有辦法容忍這種行徑，如果黃國昌委員你這麼有正義感，建議你針對你們主席所涉入的京華城的案子、士北科的案子，或者是台智光的案子，是不是更應當去徹查呢？你的正義會轉彎，你的正義是有選擇性的。","就提案2的部分，我更認為期期以為不可啊！立法委員怎麼可以針對個案去左右、阻撓監委的辦案、查案呢？我們司法及法制委員會讓我覺得非常遺憾是我們一再地看到委員利用質詢，好，我尊重每個人質詢的時間，可是我們在質詢時間有多少委員針對個案要求給我查、給我查，你查得不夠，再查，都在左右個案，結果今天監委也不過是行使他的職權，而且這個查案、辦案的結果是什麼都還不知道，我們要尊重監委的職權嘛！現在不准人家查，這就是你們的預設立場，這完全就是邏輯的矛盾，你每天在司法及法制委員會叫別人查什麼案，查得不滿你的意要繼續查，你就是在說別人是在掩護、是在護航，現在監委立了一個案，依他的職權行使，你限制人家查案，我從來沒有看過這麼……真的立委再大也不能夠去叫監委往東就往東、往西就往西，我們立法院不是習近平，我們立法院不是這種大家在人民大會堂被中國叫著往左走、往左走，往右走、往右走，我再一次說，立法委員的職權不能這樣濫權、濫用，嚴格地，我嚴謹地、嚴肅地反對這兩個臨時提案。"],["主席：謝謝，我們接下來請翁曉玲委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，我剛剛聽到民進黨委員的發言讓我有時空錯置的感覺，為什麼在先前的8年裡面你們不都是這麼做嗎？現在我們不過就是……"],["沈委員發惠：哪一件事情？"],["吳委員思瑤：哪一案？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我現在講一下，在2018年民進黨立委段宜康在5月24號他主持司法及法制委員會的時候，他同時就指出要質詢監察院院長張博雅，當時說是有替什麼嘉義市的議員候選人站台合照，而且還當面向監察院秘書長傅孟融要求，並且將這個提案提報到監察院的紀律委員會，段宜康委員不是有這麼做嗎？質詢跟提案的意思……"],["吳委員思瑤：當然不一樣啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：這個不是說不一樣，這代表說立法委員其實都同樣有這樣的權利，提案基本上是每個委員都有這樣的權利，而且更何況今天這兩個提案基本上也是回到監察院，請監察院自己要去針對院長還有監察委員有沒有失職的部分進行調查，這有什麼不可以？這難道不是立法院應該要監督監察院的一個很重要的職權嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：立法院不能監督監察院……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是我們是代表民意，我們希望監察院能夠自己約束自己監察委員的行為，這也是我一再強調，現在監察院監察委員自律規範的法律位階不夠，應該要比照像是立法院行為法，要提升它的法律位階，那麼我想這個案子大家已經討論很久了，是不是可以請主席直接就這兩個提案進行表決？謝謝。"],["主席：好，聽起來雙方共識差距太大，我們就直接進行表決好了，我們現在先清點人數。現在先處理臨時提案第1案，我們現在進行表決，採舉手表決制，表決前請先清點在場出席委員的人數。","（清點人數）"],["主席：好，在場出席委員12位，我們現在開始進行表決，贊成者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["沈委員發惠：哪一案？"],["主席：第1案，現在在處理第1案。好，贊成者6位，請放下。","反對者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：反對者6位，請放下。","表決結果：在場出席委員12人，贊成6位、反對6位，贊成者與反對者同數，依據委員會組織法第十條規定，出席委員過半數決議，可否同數時取決於主席。","現在主席表示贊成，所以表決結果為在場出席委員13人，贊成7人、反對6人，本案贊成者多數，通過。","我們接下來處理第2案……"],["柯委員建銘：插話一下，主席……"],["主席：等一下，第2案的提案委員有無補充說明？我們先補充說明完再大家討論。"],["羅委員智強：我的補充說明是幫我們的柯總召來說，因為我是非常欣賞柯總召經常都有智慧之語，他剛剛在前面階段針對提案1說這不是政治鬥爭，什麼是政治鬥爭，說得實在太好了！這個提案真的是真心奉勸民進黨，高涌誠真的太離譜了，這麼多年來政治鬥爭已經到了無以復加的地步，民進黨完全就無視這個政治鬥爭的一個……你說監察院，要把它批評東廠，最大的禍首之一就是高涌誠。段宜康的曲棍球案，請問他是不是在干涉司法？然後，被民進黨認證2022年敗選的戰犯林智堅，連民進黨都不敢幫他背書，他跑去查被害人余正煌。現在放著這麼多的案子不查，而去追殺侯友宜。所以我直接說，今天我們也希望建請監察院能夠把已經是完全地做政治追殺、政治鬥爭打手的高涌誠，以自律機制來移請調查，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。那我們現在……"],["柯委員建銘：不讓我說明一下？我都舉手了。"],["主席：對，我們現在進行討論。"],["柯委員建銘：好。"],["主席：我們討論每人發言一次，這樣才不會讓會議進行延宕……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們剛剛一起討論……"],["主席：我們剛剛兩案一起……"],["羅委員智強：我建議……"],["柯委員建銘：沒有啦！他要說明嗎？"],["羅委員智強：主席，其實兩案都有……我覺得我們各黨，我的建議、提議啦！就一邊派一個講就好了，一位就好了，那就表決了。總召講完就表決了。總召請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席！主席！會議詢問。現在由臺下指揮臺上怎麼主持會議嗎？"],["主席：不是啦！你們每個人都可以……你們每一個人都可以提建議出來啦！"],["羅委員智強：我建議啊！我建議啊！不然……主席，他這樣講，我接受啦！我提案停止討論表決啦！"],["主席：每個人都可以……"],["柯委員建銘：來不及了啦！"],["羅委員智強：不是啊！我已經都尊重柯總召……"],["柯委員建銘：哪有你……提案討論表決啊！"],["羅委員智強：你要剝奪柯總召的發言嗎？對不對？"],["主席：跟各位報告，不是說聽誰指揮啦！剛剛柯總召有意見，我是不是也是說：好，柯總召讓他講嘛！我的立場很簡單，就是讓會議進行順利，所以每個人的發言我覺得有道理就聽，沒有道理我就沒有聽嘛！就這樣嘛！我就是希望議事主持順利而已，好不好？"],["柯委員建銘：你不要擔心啦！他不會翻臺啦！"],["主席：好，那我們現在請柯總召發言。"],["柯委員建銘：主席啊！你應該檢察官出身的吧！對不對？檢察官是不是行使獨立職權？有沒有接受後面指揮？你當主席，竟然羅委員一直在指揮你如何處理程序？你不用回答啦！等我講完嘛！反正等一下你會用行動據以表示你的意見。"],["主席：我聽你的更多啊！"],["柯委員建銘：我簡單講就好。一個監察委員任期內，辦案何其多啊！你找幾個用有色眼光來看待，藉有政治之嫌，就可以來處理他啊！羅智強啊！你用「之嫌」啦！是這樣的嗎？他辦的案很多，有的你看了喜歡啊！有的你不喜歡啊！你要尊重他獨立行使職權嘛！所以這個不是政治鬥爭，什麼才是政治鬥爭呢……給你好不好？"],["主席：好，那鍾召委。對，一次啦！沒關係，我覺得都一次好了，就快一點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來啦！主席，謝謝委員！我還是覺得可以提醒一下提案委員，今天的質詢因為時間的關係，後半段關於所提到的目前監察院有委員在行使調查，我可以提醒大家，因為這是很善意的提醒，了解提案委員、調查委員的意思，就是為什麼監察院受理人民陳情，他要啟動調查？其實我們都以為是要針對被調查人的責任，去予以進行懲處，其實在本案上擔任這個公務行使的公務員本身，他已經超過了監察院行使調查之後所能夠進行的糾舉或彈劾的時限了。但是對於誰有影響呢？對於當時受這個公務執行者的相對人有影響。","根據我們2022年通過的權利回復條例，當事人要權復會受理這樣的權益侵害，他必須要有一個權威的調查結果。所以我認為，平心而論，大家聽聽看，我知道謝委員有注意在聽我這樣講。本案調查委員的用意未必是要針對被調查者，就是那個涉及可能違法行使公權力的公務員，追溯他的責任，並不是完全是在追究他的責任，而是要確定行使這個公務的執行有傷害到對造人民的權利，以便人民可以根據這樣一個法令的依據──權利回復條例，跟權復會來申請補償，這才是這個調查本身我覺得調查委員的用意。","如果大家可以體察這樣的用意，不要太用政治性的角度來思考，很清楚地，本案就算有公務員違法，他也超過目前監察院行使要對他彈劾的時效性了，所以或許是不是給當時的對造人，就是受害的民眾有機會透過監察院的調查，來申請回復他權利所必要的補償？我覺得這一點，在社會上一直沒有很清楚地被討論，所以提醒大家，我們委員在思考這個提案的時候，要注意到大家的力氣用對地方，以上懇請主席來做一個說明。"],["主席：好，謝謝。請問還有沒有哪位委員要發言？來，吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：針對提案2，如果我沒有看錯，這個被調查的對象之一侯友宜市長他很清楚地說，他坦蕩蕩，他也樂於接受調查，所以當事人侯友宜都表達他不害怕接受調查，那不曉得提案的委員在害怕什麼？意圖要去阻卻監委獨立行使他的調查權？","第二個，同一個委員會的委員，我也是不好意思要提醒一下黃國昌委員，你們的柯文哲主席也都說黨團投票可以不用一次進出同樣的表態，黨團民眾黨內部都可以有自由意志的行使，那當然黃國昌總召今天也不一定都要跟著傅崐萁總召走，我是把柯文哲主席說的事情也提醒一下黃總召，希望能夠在一些……對！傅崐萁走了，不在，你也可以行使你的個人意志，我做這個提醒。"],["主席：好，羅委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：羅委員剛剛不是已經說過了？"],["羅委員智強：我是提案說明啊！對。不要那麼緊張嘛！好不好？"],["主席：還是黃國昌委員要換，還是哪一位先？好，國昌委員。"],["羅委員智強：OK，來。"],["黃委員國昌：我想針對這一個提案本身，它有它一定的射程範圍，但我只想要幫基層的檢察官說幾句話。這個案子我支持，我為什麼支持呢？一個立委公開指控曲棍球協會理事長涉及詐領，檢察官偵辦的結果他不高興，就跑去施壓監察委員，民進黨自己提名的監察委員，然後針對這件事情要啟動調查，到底是誰在破壞監察院獨立行使職權？結果追殺一次還不夠，懲戒法庭已經決議沒有要懲戒，再搞第二次。我把基層檢察官組成的劍青檢改當初的抨擊，在委員會留下紀錄：人權監察院的人權監委為了護航政治勢力，公然追殺、報復承辦個案的基層檢察官，難道監察院是想要殺雞儆猴，讓全國檢察官噤若寒蟬，對政治正確的權貴違法亂紀之事，縮手裝死，服膺新興政治權貴嗎？蔡總統，這就是您一再提名連任的監察委員嗎？","這是當初基層檢察官所提出來的怒吼，我覺得這些基層的檢察官必須要有一個公道還給他們，以上。"],["主席：好，那羅委員還要發言嗎？"],["羅委員智強：完全認同國昌委員的發言。"],["主席：好，謝謝。如果沒有委員要發言的話，我想說，一樣！兩邊的看法還是差距過大，那我們就進行表決好了。","好，臨時提案的第2案，我們現在進行表決，表決是用舉手表決的方式，表決前請先清點在場出席委員人數。","（清點人數）"],["主席：好。在場出席委員12位，現在開始表決。","贊成者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：好。贊成者6位，請放下。","反對者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：好。反對者6位，請放下。","在場出席委員12人，贊成6位，反對6位……"],["沈委員發惠：你要不要展現一次你的正義……"],["主席：贊成者與反對者同數……好啦！不要干擾啦！可否同數時取決於主席。","現在主席表示贊成，所以表決結果為在場出席委員13人，贊成者7人，反對者6人，本案贊成者多數，通過。","臨時提案已經處理完畢，現在繼續進行詢答。","接下來請翁曉玲委員進行詢答。"],["翁委員曉玲：改書面。"],["主席：好，翁曉玲委員改書面質詢。","接下來請賴士葆委員進行詢答。賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員。","接下來請王鴻薇委員。王鴻薇委員改書面詢答。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時……"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","徐巧芯","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","黃建賓","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","柯建銘","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":335,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133501_00017"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":6.105968750000001,"end":8.51909375,"speaker_score":0.926},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.56471875,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":14.00346875,"end":14.037218750000001,"speaker_score":0.926},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":14.67846875,"end":16.16346875,"speaker_score":0.926},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":16.58534375,"end":38.455343750000004,"speaker_score":0.926},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":38.62409375,"end":46.70721875,"speaker_score":0.926},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":46.84221875,"end":48.664718750000006,"speaker_score":0.926},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","spe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元面向,第4屆就有劉欣善﹑螞蟻公吳豐山,第5屆連前院長張柏雅﹑孫大川﹑王佑玲﹑常桂美﹑王美玉﹑林慎峰﹑楊芳玲都是適用第6款。"},{"start":399.022,"end":422.419,"text":"第6屆有4位包括現任的陳菊院長、林勝峰監委、王美玉監委、朴忠誠監委。第6款是什麼?就是他富有政治經驗或是主持新聞文化事業有相當的正面聲譽所以這個部分如果連第6款都砍掉了這5屆的院長、副院長就通通不見了就通通不見了 對不對?所以這樣子的砍"},{"start":426.418,"end":453.265,"text":"條款要限縮監委的人才的來源我認為這是戴著有色的眼鏡這是有針對性有選擇性而且是不顧監察院的職權行使他甚至就是要癱瘓監察院我這樣說您的理解我剛剛報告的時候說明過監察院最重要的是委員組成的多元性那這樣子的修法會限縮我們的多元性沒有錯謝謝下一頁"},{"start":455.649,"end":477.503,"text":"回到憲政體制我再一次說非常的遺憾司法法制委員會再一次有修法來凌駕憲法就五權分立的憲法運作的原則提名權在行政權就監委的部分是總統提名立法權是行使同意權"},{"start":478.544,"end":480.566,"text":"我剛才說明過了 如果限縮這兩個條款其實相對程度也限縮了總統的提名權"},{"start":504.843,"end":513.809,"text":"總統有提名權 立法院有同意權這是兩個不同的概念所以違憲的條文不要再來了下一頁最後一頁"},{"start":515.522,"end":537.613,"text":"這次還有一個條文就是要把監委行使職權超越黨派看起來講得好像很正面但事實上我認為他是一個規範過檔的修法我們當然認為監察委員需要超出黨派嘛只要他任監委他就要退出政黨的活動不再參與政治活動"},{"start":538.735,"end":554.908,"text":"但是呢現在如果要把它擴大到10年內曾加入政黨或參與任何政治行動活動者不得為監察委員這不就又剝奪了憲法保障的個人的參政自由嗎而且10年是非常過當的一個限制來秘書長請說"},{"start":556.489,"end":582.434,"text":"10年這個集會結社的自由是人民應有的權利那10年前我從沒有辦法預期說我會不會當監察委員我會考慮這個所以有限縮人民集會結社的疑慮那第二個部分是這裡的政治活動其實定義不清楚它的範圍到底到什麼程度參加遊行算不算政治活動參加call in算不算政治活動或是其他那我們這個部分除了"},{"start":583.214,"end":587.617,"text":"政制活動難以定義,而且也抵觸了憲法保障的參政權。最後一項,我也要說有感而發,這發生在立法院,立法院修正我們自己的內規,政府院長要議事中立。"},{"start":613.132,"end":613.152,"text":"﹚吳思瑤"},{"start":632.921,"end":635.703,"text":"那韓國瑜院長跟江啟臣副院長有沒有帶頭作為表率來履行立法院我們職權行使相關法規的議事中立的原則呢?所以要刮尖尾的鬍子之前"},{"start":648.593,"end":669.762,"text":"也要瓜瓜立法委員自己的我做這樣的補充所以最後我還是希望大家理性看待修法立委再大也不能比憲法大立委再大也不能把手伸到監察院裡頭去管東管西而且是過當的管制我希望大家能夠三思好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:54:19+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:54:33.984000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請我們秘書長。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T10:54:33.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:54:34.485000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:54:34.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:54:34.865000+08:00","text":"秘書長，辛苦了！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:54:35.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:54:48.718000+08:00","text":"我在這裡聆聽了其他委員的質詢，我真的還是奉勸在司法及法制委員會質詢的委員確實都需要把法律的脈絡、連條文的本質都要搞清楚。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:54:49.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:54:56.885000+08:00","text":"我早上也聽到現在在場的羅委員說他個人是傾向支持廢監察院，非常好！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:54:56.885000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:55:05.459500+08:00","text":"如果未來有可能修憲的話，希望國民黨內的有志之士要言所當言、為所當為。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:55:05.459500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:55:14.034000+08:00","text":"我為什麼有感而發呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:55:14.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:55:34.828000+08:00","text":"就在上一屆我們終於有機會提出修憲案的時候，我吳思瑤就是立法院第一個提出廢考監之修憲提案的立委，而當時在修憲案的整個討論當中，那時候的李俊俋委員也提出了很多專業的見解，都有投入，所以廢考監是民主進步黨長期以來的主張。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:55:34.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:55:59.888000+08:00","text":"但是在上一屆的修憲委員會從頭到尾以不出席杯葛的方式來阻撓廢考監提案的是中國國民黨，在程序上以不來開會杯葛廢考監之修憲提案而被討論的就是中國國民黨。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:55:59.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:56:24.583000+08:00","text":"甚至我們也一併來還原，當初我們希望能夠給年輕世代更好的參政權的空間跟自由，我們提起我們憲法所規定公民權的年限下修到十八歲，也是在國民黨的消極杯葛之下而非常遺憾的功虧一簣。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:56:24.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:56:38.993000+08:00","text":"這是還原真相，如果國民黨的羅智強委員您願意支持廢監察院，在未來修憲的過程我們一起來加入廢考監的程序，好，謝謝。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:56:38.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:56:46.738000+08:00","text":"現在進入我今天的主題，我要說對國民黨版監察院組織法的修法萬萬要三思！","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:56:48.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:57:07.603000+08:00","text":"這一次的修法聚焦在第三條之一第一款、第六款要刪除，我認為這就嚴重地限縮了監委任命跟監察院組成的多元性，進一步地更破壞了憲法權力分立的原則，秘書長，是不是？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T10:57:09.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:57:10.563000+08:00","text":"是，我們是這樣認為。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:57:10.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:57:14.004000+08:00","text":"我觀察的兩個重點，也期期以為不可的就是這兩個條文款項的刪除就會限縮了監委的組成……","quality":0.474},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T10:57:16.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:57:27.480000+08:00","text":"如果第一款跟第六款拿掉的話，我們會少掉三分之一甚至到四成的比例是沒有辦法擔任監委的，包括院長、副院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:57:31.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:57:56.946000+08:00","text":"好，監察院的常設委員會有非常多，就如同立法院，它需要內政、外交、社會福利、財經、教育文化、交通採購、司法獄政，另外plus就是國家人權委員會，它需要的專業面向是非常的多元，所以我們都希望監察委員的任命來自於非常豐沛的社會人才庫並從裡頭來挑選。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:57:59.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:58:22.183000+08:00","text":"如果修法限縮了第一款跟第六款，將迫使未來監察委員可以被提名任用的人才來源只剩下法界、公務體系以及學者這些面向，相對的，在取才的管道上就有所限縮，對不對？是。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:58:23.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:58:35.447000+08:00","text":"好，請看下一頁，這個是我自己努力去整理的，我並沒有獲得你們內部在當初提名時是用哪一款，但是我自己很努力的去整理出來，所以秘書長可以指正。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:58:36.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:59:10.529000+08:00","text":"正因為現在有監察院組織法第三條之一第一款規定監察委員可以延攬曾任立委一任或是直轄市議員二任以上的人，而且他要有好的表現，社會形象是佳的，專業能力是強的，因為有這樣一個條款的授權，你看，第4屆有6位，像院長王建也是用這一條，洪昭男、黃煌雄、趙昌平、陳健民、錢林慧君，第4屆有6位是援用這一款。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:59:11.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:59:17.595000+08:00","text":"第5屆有田秋堇、章仁香、江綺雯、趙永清、瓦歷斯．貝林，這是我自己整理的。","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:59:18.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:59:27.003000+08:00","text":"在第6屆的副院長李鴻鈞也是用這個條款，還有葉宜津、王榮璋、賴振昌、范巽綠、陳景峻。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T10:59:27.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T10:59:31.386000+08:00","text":"跟吳委員報告，王榮璋委員這一次是用第七款，因為他是對人權議題特別關心，他是人權委員。","quality":0.447},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:59:31.386000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:59:42.774500+08:00","text":"OK，因為他本身也曾任前立委，又是人權方面的專家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:59:42.774500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T10:59:54.163000+08:00","text":"所以如果拿掉了第一款，你看這些優秀人才都進不了監察院替我們做相關的監察工作，而且我更要說，這裡頭超越黨派啊！","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T10:59:54.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:00:11.466000+08:00","text":"有新黨的、有親民黨的、有國民黨的、有民進黨還有台聯，所以只要是好的人才，他曾任立委、曾任直轄市議員，他有足夠的專業，在政治經驗上跟政策的能量上，有助於他履行監委的職責。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:00:11.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:00:20.148000+08:00","text":"過去81年寫在第一款，最主要的理由就是因為立委或是直轄市兩任以上，他對監督政府比較有經驗。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:00:20.148000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:00:21.148000+08:00","text":"更有經驗。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:00:20.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:00:21.088000+08:00","text":"他沒有銜接上的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:00:22.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:00:22.829000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:00:22.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:00:29.934000+08:00","text":"秘書長替我補充了一個很重要的前提，民代的經驗真的有助於監委查案、辦案。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:00:32.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:01:03.987000+08:00","text":"我們再來整理出第六款，如果我整理錯，秘書長也可以指正，我們同樣因為有了第六款的授權，可以豐富監委組成的多元面向，第4屆就有劉興善、馬以工、吳豐山；第5屆連前院長張博雅、孫大川、王幼玲、仉桂美、王美玉、林盛豐、楊芳玲都是適用第六款；第6屆有4位，包括現任的陳菊院長、林盛豐監委、王美玉監委，浦忠成監委。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:01:04.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:01:05.888000+08:00","text":"第六款是什麼？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:01:05.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:01:11.952000+08:00","text":"就是他富有政治經驗或是主持新聞文化事業，有相當的正面聲譽。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:01:11.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:01:18.217000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分如果連第六款都砍掉了，這些……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:01:18.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:01:19.798000+08:00","text":"第5屆的院長、副院長就通通不見了。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:01:20.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:01:21.239000+08:00","text":"就通通不見了對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:01:21.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:01:43.102000+08:00","text":"所以這樣子的砍條款，要限縮監委的人才來源，我認為這是帶著有色的眼鏡，這是有針對性、有選擇性，而且是不顧監察院的職權行使，它甚至就是要癱瘓監察院，我這樣說，您的理解……","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:01:43.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:01:51.704000+08:00","text":"我剛剛報告的時候說明過，監察院最重要的是委員組成的多元性，這樣子的修法會限縮我們的多元性。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:01:52.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:01:52.225000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:01:54.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:02:16.503000+08:00","text":"回到憲政體制，我再一次說非常的遺憾，司法及法制委員會再一次修法凌駕憲法，就五權分立的憲法運作原則，提名權在行政權，就監委的部分是總統提名，立法權是行使同意權，這是一個非常清楚的憲政權力分立，可是現在的立法委員都想要取代行政權，想要取代行政院長、想要取代總統的權力，他不只要同意權，還要剝奪提名權。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:02:17.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:02:19.566000+08:00","text":"我剛說明過了，如果限縮這兩個條款，其實相對程度也限縮了總統的提名權。是啊！","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:02:43.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:02:47.485000+08:00","text":"總統有提名權，立法院有同意權，這是兩個不同的概念。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:02:48.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:02:51.388000+08:00","text":"所以違憲的條文不要再來了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:02:54.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:03:30.385000+08:00","text":"這次還有一個條文，是要監委行使職權超越黨派，看起來講得好像很正面，但事實上，我認為它是一個規範過當的修法，我們當然認為監察委員需要超出黨派，只要他任監委，他就要退出政黨的活動，不再參與政治活動，但是現在如果要把他擴大到10年內曾加入政黨或參與任何政治活動者，不得為監察委員，這不就又剝奪了憲法保障的個人參政自由嗎？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:03:30.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:03:33.908000+08:00","text":"而且10年是非常過當的限制，秘書長請說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:03:36.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:03:45.271000+08:00","text":"集會結社的自由是人民應有的權利，10年前我沒有辦法預期我會不會當監察委員，我不會考慮這個嘛！","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:03:45.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:03:48.111000+08:00","text":"所以有限縮人民集會結社的疑慮。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:03:48.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:03:53.812000+08:00","text":"第二個部分是，這裡的政治活動，其實定義不清楚，它的範圍到底到什麼程度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:03:54.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:03:56.513000+08:00","text":"參加遊行算不算政治活動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:03:56.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:03:58.473000+08:00","text":"參加call in算不算政治活動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:03:58.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:03:59.053000+08:00","text":"或是其他。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:03:59.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:04:00.633500+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，除了監察委員必須獨立行使職權以外，我們的自律規範也規範得很清楚，不能助講、不能提供輔選，都不行！","quality":0.122},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:04:00.633500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:04:02.214000+08:00","text":"我們的自律規範規範得很清楚，所以沒有必要在組織法裡面再行這樣的規範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:04:02.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:04:03.975000+08:00","text":"政治活動難以定義，而且也牴觸了憲法保障的參政權。是的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:04:03.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:04:54.343000+08:00","text":"最後一項，我也有感而發，就發生在立法院，立法院修正我們自己的內規，正副院長要議事中立，也是正副院長要退出政治活動，但是我們坐在這裡，我們心知肚明，每一次的表決，我們的副院長都已經加入表決的行列，他沒有做到議事中立，如果要退出政治活動，韓國瑜院長跟江啟臣副院長有沒有帶頭作為表率來履行立法院職權行使相關法規的議事中立原則呢？","quality":0.527},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:04:54.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:05:11.515000+08:00","text":"所以要刮監委的鬍子之前，也要刮刮立法委員自己的，我做這樣的補充。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:05:12.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:05:27.861000+08:00","text":"所以最後我還是希望大家理性看待修法，立委再大也不能比憲法大，立委再大也不能把手伸到監察院裡頭去管東管西，而且是過當的管制，我希望大家能夠三思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:05:28.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-04-29T11:05:28.742000+08:00","text":"謝謝秘書長、謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:05:29.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:05:30.670571+08:00","text":"謝謝吳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:05:30.970571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:05:44.113429+08:00","text":"因為早上到現在都沒休息，我們現在先休息5分鐘，5分鐘回來之後，有兩件臨時提案，5分鐘回來的時候處理，謝謝各位。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:05:44.413429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:05:45.556286+08:00","text":"休息（11時5分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:05:45.856286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:05:47.570571+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時11分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:05:47.870571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:05:50.156286+08:00","text":"我們現在開始開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:05:50.456286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:05:57.884857+08:00","text":"處理臨時提案，共兩案，請一併宣讀，宣讀後，再逐案處理，請宣讀。一、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:05:58.184857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:06:21.613429+08:00","text":"有鑑於監察院院長陳菊遭檢舉於2023年12月30日赴高雄舊城教會違法為特定立委候選人輔選，事後，陳菊先是透過辦公室否認輔選，宣稱係受邀前往教會彌撒，之後證實12月30日當天舊城教會並未舉辦彌撒活動。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:06:21.913429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:06:32.770571+08:00","text":"今年3月21日，陳菊再次透過辦公室改口當日為探友行程，前後說法不一，為何一再說謊，心態可議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:06:33.070571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:06:52.213429+08:00","text":"陳菊為特定立委候選人輔選之行為，明顯違反《監察院監察委員自律規範》第二條第二項「監察委員於任職期間不得從事下列政治活動或行為：……三、為公職候選人助選。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:06:52.513429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:07:22.227714+08:00","text":"」之規定；本院為全國最高民意機關，有責任究責陳菊此一違法行徑，爰此，建請監察院依據《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》第二條第一項第一款：「本會之任務如左：一、關於人民陳訴之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:07:22.527714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:07:30.242000+08:00","text":"」啟動調查，避免監察院長一再敗壞官箴，讓國人對監察院愈加失望。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:07:30.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:07:35.113429+08:00","text":"黃國昌　　傅崐萁　　林思銘　　翁曉玲　　吳宗憲二、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:07:35.413429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:08:05.984857+08:00","text":"有鑒於諸多民眾陳情及反應，監察委員高涌誠之行使職權，從曲棍球案、卡管案、論文案及近期世台會總幹事羅益世回台遭強制驅逐出境案，均有政治介入的疑慮，有違《監察院監察委員自律規範》「監察委員依法行使職權，應超出黨派，保持中立」之規定，恐有失職之處。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:08:06.284857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:08:19.713429+08:00","text":"依《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》，監察委員如有違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範者，可移送紀律委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:08:20.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:08:30.299143+08:00","text":"然參照前監察委員陳師孟之爭議過程，並無任一監察委員行使移送監察院紀律委員會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:08:30.599143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:09:05.456286+08:00","text":"爰此，立法院為代表民意的憲政機關，為有效反映民意，建請監察院依據《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》第二條第一項第一款「關於人民陳訴之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項」，將監察委員高涌誠移送監察院紀律委員會，以調查有無民眾認為違法失職之處。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:09:05.756286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:09:09.184857+08:00","text":"羅智強　　翁曉玲　　傅崐萁　　林思銘","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:09:09.484857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:09:16.627714+08:00","text":"我們現在先處理臨時提案第1案，請問提案委員有無補充說明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:09:16.927714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:09:18.070571+08:00","text":"好，請補充。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:09:18.370571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:10:08.084857+08:00","text":"這個案子其實剛剛在詢答的過程當中，我想應該已經表達得很清楚了，因為去年我開始公開檢舉這件事情，不過按照今天詢答的內容，監察院秘書長說沒有人檢舉，所以整個自律的程序都還沒有啟動，我覺得從監察院的角度上面來看，監察院在面對自家人是不是有違法輔選這件事情，恐怕不是監察院院長自己說了就算了，如果這個事情是監察院院長自己就說了算，沒有啟動任何自律調查的程序，真的是讓人殊難想像啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:10:08.384857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:10:33.527714+08:00","text":"以後如果要按照相同的標準，任何要被糾舉、要被糾正、要被彈劾的人，他也可以跟陳菊一樣，有樣學樣，自己發一個新聞稿說自己的新聞稿裡面已經講得很清楚了，這個事情沒有再什麼樣子的說明或者是調查的必要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:10:33.827714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:10:45.256286+08:00","text":"這個顯然可能跟我們對於監察院在被廢止以前所應該扮演的角色，以及所期待的標準，大相徑庭。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:10:45.556286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:11:15.270571+08:00","text":"既然今天在詢答的過程當中，秘書長已經很清楚的說了，目前沒有任何的啟動程序來加以調查，而依照監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法，只要有人民陳述的話，他們就要啟動調查，我今天就公開而且直接做了這樣子的檢舉，啟動他們的自律調查檢舉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:11:15.570571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:11:17.284857+08:00","text":"以上說明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:11:17.584857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:11:21.584857+08:00","text":"謝謝，請問機關有沒有要補充說明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-04-29T11:11:21.884857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:11:49.313429+08:00","text":"依據我們的自律規範，這個部分任何人如果認為公務員涉有違失，可以向監察院檢舉，本院就會依照法定程序處理，所以今天的提案兩個都算是人民提出的檢舉案，我們就依法定程序處理，但是裡面有一些文字是不是可以建議做修正？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:11:49.613429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:11:51.042000+08:00","text":"謝謝，柯總召。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:11:51.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:11:55.913429+08:00","text":"這不是政治鬥爭，什麼才叫做政治鬥爭？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:11:56.213429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:01.070571+08:00","text":"到底有沒有去瞭解當天的情況是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:12:01.370571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:03.370571+08:00","text":"有真正地在場嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:12:03.670571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:12.813429+08:00","text":"陳菊院長也一再地發新聞稿表示，當天車上有酒，然後就用這個看圖片說故事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:12:13.113429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:22.542000+08:00","text":"黃國昌委員，你做為這樣的打手，反正對於不同立場的你就窮追猛打，看圖說故事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:12:22.842000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:29.699143+08:00","text":"我們要瞭解，剛才秘書長也講過，人民檢舉就是人民檢舉嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:12:29.999143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:31.713429+08:00","text":"你可以檢舉呀！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:12:32.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:49.442000+08:00","text":"假如是院際之間的事情，可以由立法院發動檢舉，他們要啟動內部的調查層級已經到紀律委員會，假如照這樣的標準的話，權力分立原則在什麼地方？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:12:49.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:55.456286+08:00","text":"今天坐在我對面的傅崐萁率中訪團到中國訪問……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-04-29T11:12:55.756286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:57.756286+08:00","text":"不要再……賴清德嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:12:58.056286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:12:59.770571+08:00","text":"你聽我講話嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:13:00.070571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:13:06.070571+08:00","text":"你說是和平之旅、破冰之旅，但我看這是賣臺之旅吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:13:06.370571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:13:14.942000+08:00","text":"如果這樣可以的話，行政院或監察院可以行文給立法院送紀律委員會嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:13:15.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:13:17.242000+08:00","text":"這也太離譜了吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:13:17.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:13:30.399143+08:00","text":"黃國昌你要聽人家講，你不要整天只會嘿嘿叫，覺得只有你講的才是對的，事實真相是怎麼樣，你有沒有搞清楚？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:13:30.699143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:13:32.413429+08:00","text":"好，鍾佳濱委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:13:32.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:14:18.427714+08:00","text":"主席，我們對於委員會跟院會之間的職權，我想在司法及法制委員會的委員會跟其他委員會相較，我們有更高的要求，我這邊也請主席可以稍微釐清一下，因為委員會在坐很多委員過去在學生時代也擔任過學生議會的議員，都知道議事規則，其實目前的委員會是承院會之命，進行包括法案的審查、包括議案的審查，當然在施政報告總質詢之後也會開始讓各部會向各委員會進行業務報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:14:18.727714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:14:56.156286+08:00","text":"委員會本身的臨時提案就被拘束在這些院會交給委員會的工作當中，所以一般我們委員會的臨時提案多半是針對業務報告的部門，請它進一步地提供補充的說明，或者是在法案的審理過程當中，需要業務機關提出必要的資訊，我們才能據以審議法案，或者我們在審議預算的過程當中，我們需要提供過去執行的證明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:14:56.456286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:15:36.742000+08:00","text":"這些或許在地方議會稱之為「索資」，但是在委員會是一個常態，我們要求受監督機關，就是行政院，包括各部會因為我們受院會的委託所進行的這些各類審查，在委員會進行的時候是我們所必要的，所以我們才作成了決議，因此我們今天這兩個提案在場，我們必須審視這兩個提案跟院會交付給本委員會審查的法律修正案，其中的關聯性是什麼。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:15:37.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:15:49.613429+08:00","text":"如果能夠具體說明，我相信本委員會作成的決議比較上就比較符合國會運作委員會體例的一個職權行使。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:15:49.913429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:16:28.484857+08:00","text":"但是我還是要提醒，誠如過去我在當輪值召委的時候也提醒過委員，其實監察院也好，司法院也好，它都是跟立法院一樣的憲政機關，而憲政機關只有行政院依憲法向立法院負責，立法院包括院會也不會對於司法院或監察院在法案跟預算以外，它的獨立行使職權有任何的要求，也不具有這樣的權力，大法官的解釋都非常地清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:16:28.784857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:16:48.499143+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛有點遺憾地聽到了我們監察院秘書長說，這個提案他可能會視為一般人民陳情案來處理，如果是一般人民陳情案，其實就根本不須要委員會在這邊做討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:16:48.799143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:17:07.942000+08:00","text":"本席剛剛在質詢時候，也就這樣的部分，包括有國民黨的總召，率團17人到中國去，其中有包括外交及國防委員會的委員才在本月上上週出席了院內的一個秘密會議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:17:08.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:17:33.384857+08:00","text":"在這種情況之下，立法院有沒有去做列管，秘書長說委員的部分不在監察院的職權行使對象裡，但是立法院的公務員如果怠忽職守，是在監察院的調查糾正範圍內，所以他請本席……如果有提出，監察院當然就會來受理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:17:33.684857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:18:33.684857+08:00","text":"所以如果是這樣子，我是建議主席這個案子作這樣的處理，既然提案委員有這樣的要求，監察院也會受理，是不是我們今天根本無待決議，就直接由委員個人向監察院提出這樣的檢舉，不管是檢舉立法院的公務員，對於涉密人員赴中的列管疏失，或者是對於其他機關有公務人員失職的部分，都可以移請監察院來做一個調查以為處置，我覺得這才符合憲政機關應有的作為，也符合本委員會承院會之命，受理進行預算或法案審查應有的作為，以上請主席可以跟大家作一個宣告，瞭解我們這兩個提案的處理方式。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:18:33.984857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:18:35.699143+08:00","text":"以上建議，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:18:35.999143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:18:41.427714+08:00","text":"沒有，我這邊就依法處理了，我就依照規則處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:18:41.727714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:18:47.442000+08:00","text":"我覺得我沒有別的意思，就是一切依照規則處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:18:47.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:18:53.170571+08:00","text":"因為剛剛沈委員先舉手，我們先請沈委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:18:53.470571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:18:55.184857+08:00","text":"主席、各位同仁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:18:55.484857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:19:16.342000+08:00","text":"我想今天這兩個臨時提案，我們看一下其實大家都知道這個是政治性提案，因為依法來講，我們立法院是沒有任何權力的，依權力分立的原則，我們也沒有權力要求監察院幹嘛的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:19:16.642000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:19:24.927714+08:00","text":"因此我看了兩個提案，雖說我們都是用「建請監察院」，但為什麼要用「建請」？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:19:25.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:19:34.656286+08:00","text":"因為我們知道、我們自己寫提案的人都知道我們沒有權力要求監察院做什麼嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:19:34.956286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:19:36.670571+08:00","text":"這是第一件事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:19:36.970571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:19:58.970571+08:00","text":"第二件事，我看兩個臨時提案的核心精神，最核心的都是監察院監察委員自律規範，這個自律規範的「自律」兩字我不曉得大家是不是不太理解，就像我們立法院的自律規範，這個也不是法律。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:19:59.270571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:20:05.842000+08:00","text":"這裡又說「違反自律規範」有這個違法行逕，它就不是法啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:20:06.142000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:20:07.570571+08:00","text":"為什麼違法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:20:07.870571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:20:14.156286+08:00","text":"既然是「自律」，為什麼今天立法院要求，又提案說要自律？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:20:14.456286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:20:27.884857+08:00","text":"今天如果說監察院哪個監察委員提個案子說立法院應該要把誰送立法院紀律委員會，這樣我們立法院可受得了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:20:28.184857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:20:30.470571+08:00","text":"我們立委受得了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:20:30.770571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:20:37.627714+08:00","text":"這是權力分立的基本原則，所以我們大家還是講講道理啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:20:37.927714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:20:44.784857+08:00","text":"這個自律規範就不是法律，說它違法，但它到底違了什麼法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:20:45.084857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:20:54.227714+08:00","text":"這可能是助理寫的，因為在座各位的法學素養應該都不至於寫出這種文字啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:20:54.527714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:21:03.670571+08:00","text":"所以你們這個助理……請回去要求助理在寫這個臨時提案的文字時不要這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:21:03.970571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:21:09.684857+08:00","text":"明明是違反自律規範還寫違法，這個有點問題啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:21:09.984857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:22:12.842000+08:00","text":"憲法增修條文第七條也明白地寫出我們監察委員要獨立行使職權，他就是獨立行使職權，我們這個臨時提案、羅智強委員的臨時提案這裡就指名哪一個監察委員辦什麼案子的時候，你們這些提案人認為他有政治介入的疑慮，但是憲法就已經寫了，他是獨立行使職權了，這個就像我們遇到司法案件恐龍法官，我們也不能說立法院決議哪一個法官的判決是有問題的，因為你個人可以對他有評價，但是我們立法院做成決議對於獨立行使職權的人行使職權的方法，我有意見，我認為是直接違反憲法賦予監察委員獨立行使職權的精神。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:22:13.142000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:22:28.856286+08:00","text":"尤其我們是立法院，我們是權力分立之中的一個角色，不是一般的民眾，這裡也不是政論節目、call in節目，所以我希望大家三思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:22:29.156286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:22:52.299143+08:00","text":"如果要表決，我們當然是輸，因為主席又特別休息等傅崐萁總召趕到現場才開會，我們表決當然是輸，隨便你們，躺在這裡隨便你們，但是大家要講講道理，出去社會都有公評，我希望大家講講道理，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:22:52.599143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:22:55.170571+08:00","text":"下一位請羅智強委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:22:55.470571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:23:07.184857+08:00","text":"不過在此之前，我再把臨時提案1的文字補充一次，黃國昌委員的提案是「建請」監察院，不是命令監察院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:23:07.484857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:23:13.199143+08:00","text":"我有看到，剛剛也有講了，我們有看到2案都是建請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:23:13.499143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:23:48.070571+08:00","text":"我解釋一下，以前在法院的時候，檢察官是具體求處多少年，後來被說具體有一點命令性，後來都是改成建請，因為「建請」就不會被認為是一個強制的要求，因為檢方無權干涉司法審判，所以它是用建請，要請各位再仔細看一下，臨時提案是用「建請」，跟五權分立沒有關係，我覺得這個話是有一點問題的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:23:48.370571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:23:54.942000+08:00","text":"主席，我們立法委員依法能不能建請監察委員移送自律？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:23:55.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:23:56.670571+08:00","text":"主席，對不起！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:23:56.970571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:23:58.113429+08:00","text":"會議詢問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:23:58.413429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:24:00.413429+08:00","text":"會議詢問要優先。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:24:00.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:24:12.713429+08:00","text":"我只有一個簡單的問題，我們現在發言的狀態是不需要經主席同意，大家隨便按麥克風都可以發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:24:13.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:24:17.013429+08:00","text":"依照行為法，是要由主席這邊決定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:24:17.313429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:24:49.313429+08:00","text":"好，如果是這樣子的話，我要拜託主席，請您執行這樣的規範，規範是怎麼樣都沒有關係，大家喜歡按麥克風發言就按麥克風發言，如果規範是這樣也沒有關係，說清楚、講明白；如果不是這樣的話，等一下沒有主席點到發言的，自己恣意的按麥克風發言，請主席主持會議制止，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:24:49.613429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:09.042000+08:00","text":"好，依照立法委員行為法，在議程進行期間還是要由主席這邊來決定，要發言的人舉手發言，我這邊會請他發言，我們就不要按麥克風來干涉正在發言的委員，謝謝各位。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:09.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:12.484857+08:00","text":"接下來請羅智強委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:12.784857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:21.070571+08:00","text":"我覺得在司法及法制委員會都是在看綠色迴力標大賽，真是驚奇萬分！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:21.370571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:27.942000+08:00","text":"什麼迴力標飛來飛去、打來打去，全部往民進黨身上招呼。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:28.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:32.527714+08:00","text":"我唸一句名言給大家聽「真是佩服啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:32.827714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:44.827714+08:00","text":"秘書長，我最後請教你一個問題，如果立法院說王建煊嚴重破壞官箴，要求監察院彈劾，你們會不會處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:45.127714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:47.127714+08:00","text":"」這句話是誰說的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:47.427714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:54.570571+08:00","text":"這句話是在座的李俊俋秘書長當立委的時候說的，了不起啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:54.870571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:56.584857+08:00","text":"彈劾都可以啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:56.884857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:25:58.884857+08:00","text":"都可以要求彈劾。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:25:59.184857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:26:16.899143+08:00","text":"結果現在我們建請把陳菊、高涌誠送紀律委員會，李秘書長都講了本來就可以，結果這些護航部隊非常熱鬧精彩、迫不及待，迫不及待打臉李俊俋幹什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:26:17.199143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:26:18.199143+08:00","text":"不好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:26:18.499143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:26:27.356286+08:00","text":"都自己同黨同志，不需要這樣子，很難看的，這不是政治鬥爭，什麼是政治鬥爭？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:26:27.656286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:26:33.656286+08:00","text":"你擺明在鬥爭李俊俋，我看不下去，真的，我看不下去！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:26:33.956286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:27:14.527714+08:00","text":"我要跟各位說句實在話，今天黃國昌委員的臨時提案就是表達立法院司法及法制委員會的態度，監察院陳菊到底有沒有違反行政中立，本來就應該好好調查瞭解，監察院不做，立法院司法及法制委員會就代表民意做出一個正式的決議，請監察院慎重考慮移送紀律委員會好好調查、調查，在機制上本來就可以，就像李俊俋都可以要求彈劾王建煊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:27:14.827714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:27:19.113429+08:00","text":"各位知道當時的秘書長怎麼回答嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:27:19.413429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:27:21.984857+08:00","text":"當時秘書長怎麼回答？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:27:22.284857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:27:41.713429+08:00","text":"李俊俋說忘了，問他說已經忘了，當時秘書長的回答是依程序進行，一樣，今天送出去就依程序進行，不要緊張，不要迴力標，不要再打李俊俋，都是同黨同志，照顧一下，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:27:42.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:27:45.156286+08:00","text":"請問還有哪位委員要發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:27:45.456286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:27:46.599143+08:00","text":"請莊委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-04-29T11:27:46.899143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:28:25.184857+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，我現在才知道羅智強和李俊俋那麼好，其實本席在看這個案子，監察委員或監察院長被檢舉的特定事項是有沒有為特定立委候選人輔選，這個倒是一個事實的問題，個別委員或一般民眾去檢舉，有事實的話，我不認為監察院連回答都不敢回答、都不用回答，尤其是黃國昌委員現在在立法院的分量是不可同日而語的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-04-29T11:28:25.484857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:28:38.627714+08:00","text":"我倒覺得一個你可以自己去做檢舉的案子，要特別在立法院委員會裡面做表決，萬一表決沒有通過，不是很怪嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-04-29T11:28:38.927714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:28:52.927714+08:00","text":"這個案子一看就知道充滿著政治性，我相信我們講黃國昌委員你這個案子充滿政治性，你也不能說我們講的沒有道理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-04-29T11:28:53.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:29:13.227714+08:00","text":"我倒覺得像這種案件要讓它成案的話，不需要經過委員會就可以成案，就可以去做的事情，偏偏要捨棄這樣的檢舉方式，在委員會裡面做這樣的提案，我倒覺得是多此一舉。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-04-29T11:29:13.527714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:29:36.099143+08:00","text":"國民黨委員和提案人有你們的看法，我們表示尊重，民進黨很明顯的，我們也有不一樣的看法，不一樣的看法又不是一定要到最後用表決的方式，才可以達到你的目的，所以再請黃委員考慮一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:29:36.399143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:29:40.399143+08:00","text":"因為剛剛柯總召先舉手，先柯總召……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:29:40.699143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:29:51.270571+08:00","text":"主席，大家發言一次完就可以表決了，反正也沒什麼意思，不然現在就表決，我提議現在表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:29:51.570571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:29:53.856286+08:00","text":"不然吳思瑤先講啊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:29:54.156286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:02.156286+08:00","text":"不然這樣好了，因為柯總召剛剛發言過一次，他們現在希望一人一次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:02.456286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:08.742000+08:00","text":"主席，你當主席一直被下面指揮就漏氣了，這樣可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:09.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:11.613429+08:00","text":"那我要提停止討論喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:11.913429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:14.484857+08:00","text":"你要怎麼提是一回事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:14.784857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:17.927714+08:00","text":"總召，讓吳思瑤先講好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:18.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:22.513429+08:00","text":"總召，你剛剛講過了，讓吳思瑤先講啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:22.813429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:27.099143+08:00","text":"我們內部的事情不用你煩惱，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:27.399143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:30.827714+08:00","text":"報告主席，停止討論，現在表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:31.127714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:32.842000+08:00","text":"什麼停止討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:33.142000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:36.856286+08:00","text":"請問一下現在是什麼發言秩序？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:37.156286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:40.870571+08:00","text":"已經登記完畢以後要停止討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:41.170571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:45.742000+08:00","text":"這樣好了，我們都一人發言一次，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:46.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:50.327714+08:00","text":"突然更改遊戲規則，主席，你要做好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:50.627714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:30:54.627714+08:00","text":"不要受到下面的指揮，你是檢察官……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:30:54.927714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:31:09.499143+08:00","text":"因為我剛才已經答應總召了，所以我們讓總召再發言一次，之後大家一人發言一次，國民黨這邊也一樣，我們讓議事順利一點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:31:09.799143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:31:12.084857+08:00","text":"大家加減聽一下啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:31:12.384857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:31:13.527714+08:00","text":"不要急啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:31:13.827714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:31:16.684857+08:00","text":"你們表決穩贏的，怕什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:31:16.984857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:31:54.699143+08:00","text":"大家要有基本的民主素養，剛才提到李俊俋在委員會的發言，持平而論，我也在委員會發言講過王建煊應該下臺，可是立法院並不是作決議，是審查他們的預算案、法律案的時候做這樣的發言，各位要瞭解當年王建煊是怎麼講的，他說監察院就是瘋人院，應該把它關起來，他自己還去告裡面的監察委員，他最大的問題是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:31:54.999143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:32:00.999143+08:00","text":"他把國民黨一些不當黨產資料銷毀，這何其大事啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:32:01.299143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:32:05.299143+08:00","text":"你們要瞭解過去是怎麼樣的情形。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:32:05.599143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:32:19.884857+08:00","text":"王建煊還有在監察院裡面望彌撒等荒謬行為一大堆，所以立法院對於監察院的預算質詢的時候，提出一些看法不可以嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:32:20.184857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:32:40.756286+08:00","text":"當然這不是決議案，今天你是用決議案，一個非事實的東西來追殺到底，陳菊院長也講得很清楚，他的酒是放在車上，不能看到一張照片就代表他去輔選，當天也沒有候選人在場。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:32:41.056286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:33:30.199143+08:00","text":"黃國昌你是法學博士，我告訴你，大法官釋字第461號解釋，你自己看清楚，1998年的時候，那時候我們還是在野黨的時候，所有國民黨還有民進黨的委員都認為時任參謀總長的唐飛應該來立法院備詢，但是唐飛不來，後來去大法官解釋，第461號出來了以後，就是說因為唐飛當參謀總長，過去是不用備詢的，但是他有主導而且共同主導所有的國防預算以及國防政策，乃至於國防法案，所以他必須要來立法院備詢，第461號解釋出來是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:33:30.499143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:10.213429+08:00","text":"五院的院長，包括監察院院長、監察委員等獨立行使職權的，不用來立法院，但是要來的只有像秘書長要來，因為他是代表監察院來說明預算、法案，所以這個事情，像在今天是處理法案，所以秘書長必須來，這種很嚴謹的權力分立原則，五院院長你可以隨便來，五院院長我們自己越俎代庖說你們把你們的院長幹掉，送紀律委員會，我剛才講了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:10.513429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:16.799143+08:00","text":"只要行政院說傅崐萁親中賣臺，你們立法院一定要把……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:17.099143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:22.242000+08:00","text":"不要再罵賴清德，跟你講幾次，要教育你幾次……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:22.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:24.256286+08:00","text":"你風度好一點……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:24.556286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:26.270571+08:00","text":"你是說幾遍啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:26.570571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:27.713429+08:00","text":"講完了沒？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:28.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:30.299143+08:00","text":"不喜歡聽就出去嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:30.599143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:32.027714+08:00","text":"沒關係，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"傅委員崐萁","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:32.327714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:34.042000+08:00","text":"為什麼他可以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:34.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:37.484857+08:00","text":"所以其他院可以也來指導……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:37.784857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:38.927714+08:00","text":"兩位總召……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:39.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:42.084857+08:00","text":"所以這個道理很清楚啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:42.384857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:45.242000+08:00","text":"兩位總召，對，這樣好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:45.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:48.970571+08:00","text":"就是我們現在先都冷靜一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:49.270571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:34:51.270571+08:00","text":"你不制止他一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:34:51.570571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:35:00.427714+08:00","text":"對，所以我說都冷靜一下，柯總召，因為你第二次發言，可不可以簡短，趕快結束？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:35:00.727714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:35:02.442000+08:00","text":"因為後面還有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:35:02.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:35:05.884857+08:00","text":"所以大家要想清楚好不好……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:35:06.184857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:35:08.184857+08:00","text":"還有吳思瑤委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:35:08.484857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:35:16.199143+08:00","text":"黃國昌委員你自己也是法學博士，看大法官釋字第461號，1998就釋出來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:35:16.499143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:35:23.927714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝柯總召，接下來請吳思瑤委員，然後下一位是翁曉玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:35:24.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:35:37.370571+08:00","text":"針對這兩個臨時提案，當然等一下會進入表決，但是我們在立法院還是要秉持我們的職責，我要做成發言的紀錄。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:35:37.670571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:36:03.099143+08:00","text":"今天的提案1跟提案2非常清楚的就是一個針對性跟選擇性的政治性提案，針對個案來透過決議的方式，我非常同意個別的委員你對於個別的個案提出你的看法、觀點，你可以利用你個人質詢的時間為之，大家互相尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:36:03.399143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:36:14.256286+08:00","text":"但是因為今天這兩個提案都是要透過司法及法制委員會的共同決定，這當然就不可不慎啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:36:14.556286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:36:27.413429+08:00","text":"以多數然後就硬要把不適宜成為提案的案由，然後成為提案強行通過，我要再次說明我非常不認同這個說法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:36:27.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:37:51.713429+08:00","text":"就提案1的部分，我覺得這個很清楚的是一再地針對個人性，就陳菊院長有沒有在你所指涉的去年12月30號當天，他有沒有去助選，相關當事人第一個就是陳菊院長，他很清楚地說他是去教會訪友；第二個、被影射被助選的當事人，現在也是我們立法院的同事，他也很清楚的，他當天沒有在場，一個候選人沒有在場的場子可以被說成是替候選人造勢助選，所以相關當事人都清楚地澄清了，而且當下在那個教會也沒有被拍到任何助選相關的行為，看到黑影就開槍，隨便亂開槍，然後今天在這裡提案，當事人的澄清都一再地視而不見，這種積非成是，我實在非常沒有辦法容忍這種行徑，如果黃國昌委員你這麼有正義感，建議你針對你們主席所涉入的京華城的案子、士北科的案子，或者是台智光的案子，是不是更應當去徹查呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:37:52.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:37:56.870571+08:00","text":"你的正義會轉彎，你的正義是有選擇性的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:37:57.170571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:38:02.027714+08:00","text":"就提案2的部分，我更認為期期以為不可啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:38:02.327714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:38:09.470571+08:00","text":"立法委員怎麼可以針對個案去左右、阻撓監委的辦案、查案呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:38:09.770571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:38:46.627714+08:00","text":"我們司法及法制委員會讓我覺得非常遺憾是我們一再地看到委員利用質詢，好，我尊重每個人質詢的時間，可是我們在質詢時間有多少委員針對個案要求給我查、給我查，你查得不夠，再查，都在左右個案，結果今天監委也不過是行使他的職權，而且這個查案、辦案的結果是什麼都還不知道，我們要尊重監委的職權嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:38:46.927714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:39:47.213429+08:00","text":"現在不准人家查，這就是你們的預設立場，這完全就是邏輯的矛盾，你每天在司法及法制委員會叫別人查什麼案，查得不滿你的意要繼續查，你就是在說別人是在掩護、是在護航，現在監委立了一個案，依他的職權行使，你限制人家查案，我從來沒有看過這麼……真的立委再大也不能夠去叫監委往東就往東、往西就往西，我們立法院不是習近平，我們立法院不是這種大家在人民大會堂被中國叫著往左走、往左走，往右走、往右走，我再一次說，立法委員的職權不能這樣濫權、濫用，嚴格地，我嚴謹地、嚴肅地反對這兩個臨時提案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:39:47.513429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:39:51.227714+08:00","text":"謝謝，我們接下來請翁曉玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-04-29T11:39:51.527714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:40:04.099143+08:00","text":"是的，我剛剛聽到民進黨委員的發言讓我有時空錯置的感覺，為什麼在先前的8年裡面你們不都是這麼做嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-04-29T11:40:04.399143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:40:06.684857+08:00","text":"現在我們不過就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:40:06.984857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:40:08.413429+08:00","text":"哪一件事情？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:40:08.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:40:09.713429+08:00","text":"哪一案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-04-29T11:40:10.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:40:44.299143+08:00","text":"好，我現在講一下，在2018年民進黨立委段宜康在5月24號他主持司法及法制委員會的時候，他同時就指出要質詢監察院院長張博雅，當時說是有替什麼嘉義市的議員候選人站台合照，而且還當面向監察院秘書長傅孟融要求，並且將這個提案提報到監察院的紀律委員會，段宜康委員不是有這麼做嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-04-29T11:40:44.599143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:40:46.884857+08:00","text":"質詢跟提案的意思……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:40:47.184857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:40:48.899143+08:00","text":"當然不一樣啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-04-29T11:40:49.199143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:41:18.627714+08:00","text":"這個不是說不一樣，這代表說立法委員其實都同樣有這樣的權利，提案基本上是每個委員都有這樣的權利，而且更何況今天這兩個提案基本上也是回到監察院，請監察院自己要去針對院長還有監察委員有沒有失職的部分進行調查，這有什麼不可以？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-04-29T11:41:18.927714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:41:26.356286+08:00","text":"這難道不是立法院應該要監督監察院的一個很重要的職權嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:41:26.656286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:41:29.513429+08:00","text":"立法院不能監督監察院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-04-29T11:41:29.813429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:04.099143+08:00","text":"但是我們是代表民意，我們希望監察院能夠自己約束自己監察委員的行為，這也是我一再強調，現在監察院監察委員自律規範的法律位階不夠，應該要比照像是立法院行為法，要提升它的法律位階，那麼我想這個案子大家已經討論很久了，是不是可以請主席直接就這兩個提案進行表決？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:04.399143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:13.542000+08:00","text":"好，聽起來雙方共識差距太大，我們就直接進行表決好了，我們現在先清點人數。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:13.842000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:25.556286+08:00","text":"現在先處理臨時提案第1案，我們現在進行表決，採舉手表決制，表決前請先清點在場出席委員的人數。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:25.856286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:26.999143+08:00","text":"（清點人數）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:27.299143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:34.156286+08:00","text":"好，在場出席委員12位，我們現在開始進行表決，贊成者請舉手。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:34.456286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:35.599143+08:00","text":"（進行表決）","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:35.899143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:36.899143+08:00","text":"哪一案？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:37.199143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:39.770571+08:00","text":"第1案，現在在處理第1案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:40.070571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:42.356286+08:00","text":"好，贊成者6位，請放下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:42.656286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:44.370571+08:00","text":"反對者請舉手。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:44.670571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:45.813429+08:00","text":"（進行表決）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:46.113429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:42:48.113429+08:00","text":"反對者6位，請放下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:42:48.413429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:43:03.842000+08:00","text":"在場出席委員12人，贊成6位、反對6位，贊成者與反對者同數，依據委員會組織法第十條規定，出席委員過半數決議，可否同數時取決於主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:43:04.142000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:43:14.713429+08:00","text":"現在主席表示贊成，所以表決結果為在場出席委員13人，贊成7人、反對6人，本案贊成者多數，通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:43:15.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:43:17.584857+08:00","text":"我們接下來處理第2案……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:43:17.884857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:43:19.599143+08:00","text":"插話一下，主席……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:43:19.899143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:43:24.470571+08:00","text":"等一下，第2案的提案委員有無補充說明？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:43:24.770571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:43:28.484857+08:00","text":"我們先補充說明完再大家討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:43:28.784857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:43:48.499143+08:00","text":"我的補充說明是幫我們的柯總召來說，因為我是非常欣賞柯總召經常都有智慧之語，他剛剛在前面階段針對提案1說這不是政治鬥爭，什麼是政治鬥爭，說得實在太好了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:43:48.799143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:44:12.799143+08:00","text":"這個提案真的是真心奉勸民進黨，高涌誠真的太離譜了，這麼多年來政治鬥爭已經到了無以復加的地步，民進黨完全就無視這個政治鬥爭的一個……你說監察院，要把它批評東廠，最大的禍首之一就是高涌誠。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:44:13.099143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:44:18.527714+08:00","text":"段宜康的曲棍球案，請問他是不是在干涉司法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:44:18.827714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:44:29.684857+08:00","text":"然後，被民進黨認證2022年敗選的戰犯林智堅，連民進黨都不敢幫他背書，他跑去查被害人余正煌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:44:29.984857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:44:35.413429+08:00","text":"現在放著這麼多的案子不查，而去追殺侯友宜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:44:35.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:44:51.142000+08:00","text":"所以我直接說，今天我們也希望建請監察院能夠把已經是完全地做政治追殺、政治鬥爭打手的高涌誠，以自律機制來移請調查，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:44:51.442000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:44:52.442000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:44:52.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:44:54.170571+08:00","text":"那我們現在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:44:54.470571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:44:56.470571+08:00","text":"不讓我說明一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:44:56.770571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:44:58.199143+08:00","text":"我都舉手了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:44:58.499143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:01.356286+08:00","text":"對，我們現在進行討論。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:01.656286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:07.942000+08:00","text":"我們討論每人發言一次，這樣才不會讓會議進行延宕……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:08.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:10.527714+08:00","text":"我們剛剛一起討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:10.827714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:13.113429+08:00","text":"我們剛剛兩案一起……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:13.413429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:14.413429+08:00","text":"我建議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:14.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:15.713429+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:16.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:17.442000+08:00","text":"他要說明嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:17.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:24.027714+08:00","text":"主席，其實兩案都有……我覺得我們各黨，我的建議、提議啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:24.327714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:30.042000+08:00","text":"就一邊派一個講就好了，一位就好了，那就表決了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:30.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:32.627714+08:00","text":"總召講完就表決了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:32.927714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:34.927714+08:00","text":"總召請。主席！主席！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:35.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:36.370571+08:00","text":"會議詢問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:36.670571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:41.242000+08:00","text":"現在由臺下指揮臺上怎麼主持會議嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:41.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:42.542000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:42.842000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:49.413429+08:00","text":"你們每個人都可以……你們每一個人都可以提建議出來啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:49.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:50.856286+08:00","text":"我建議啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:51.156286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:52.299143+08:00","text":"我建議啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:52.599143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:56.027714+08:00","text":"不然……主席，他這樣講，我接受啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:56.327714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:45:59.184857+08:00","text":"我提案停止討論表決啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:45:59.484857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:01.199143+08:00","text":"每個人都可以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:01.499143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:02.927714+08:00","text":"來不及了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:03.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:04.227714+08:00","text":"不是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:04.527714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:07.099143+08:00","text":"我已經都尊重柯總召……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:07.399143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:10.256286+08:00","text":"哪有你……提案討論表決啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:10.556286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:13.699143+08:00","text":"你要剝奪柯總召的發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:13.999143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:14.999143+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:15.299143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:19.013429+08:00","text":"跟各位報告，不是說聽誰指揮啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:19.313429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:25.884857+08:00","text":"剛剛柯總召有意見，我是不是也是說：好，柯總召讓他講嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:26.184857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:38.184857+08:00","text":"我的立場很簡單，就是讓會議進行順利，所以每個人的發言我覺得有道理就聽，沒有道理我就沒有聽嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:38.484857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:39.627714+08:00","text":"就這樣嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:39.927714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:44.499143+08:00","text":"我就是希望議事主持順利而已，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:44.799143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:46.513429+08:00","text":"你不要擔心啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:46.813429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:48.527714+08:00","text":"他不會翻臺啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:48.827714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:52.256286+08:00","text":"好，那我們現在請柯總召發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:52.556286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:53.556286+08:00","text":"主席啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:53.856286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:56.713429+08:00","text":"你應該檢察官出身的吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:57.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:46:58.013429+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:46:58.313429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:01.742000+08:00","text":"檢察官是不是行使獨立職權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:02.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:04.613429+08:00","text":"有沒有接受後面指揮？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:04.913429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:10.913429+08:00","text":"你當主席，竟然羅委員一直在指揮你如何處理程序？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:11.213429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:12.927714+08:00","text":"你不用回答啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:13.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:14.656286+08:00","text":"等我講完嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:14.956286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:20.099143+08:00","text":"反正等一下你會用行動據以表示你的意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:20.399143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:22.399143+08:00","text":"我聽你的更多啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:22.699143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:24.413429+08:00","text":"我簡單講就好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:24.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:28.999143+08:00","text":"一個監察委員任期內，辦案何其多啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:29.299143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:36.727714+08:00","text":"你找幾個用有色眼光來看待，藉有政治之嫌，就可以來處理他啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:37.027714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:38.170571+08:00","text":"羅智強啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:38.470571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:39.899143+08:00","text":"你用「之嫌」啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:40.199143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:41.627714+08:00","text":"是這樣的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:41.927714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:45.927714+08:00","text":"他辦的案很多，有的你看了喜歡啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:46.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:48.227714+08:00","text":"有的你不喜歡啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:48.527714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:51.956286+08:00","text":"你要尊重他獨立行使職權嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員建銘","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:52.256286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:47:59.113429+08:00","text":"所以這個不是政治鬥爭，什麼才是政治鬥爭呢……給你好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:47:59.413429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:48:00.842000+08:00","text":"好，那鍾召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:48:01.142000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:48:02.284857+08:00","text":"對，一次啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:48:02.584857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:48:07.442000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我覺得都一次好了，就快一點。來啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:48:07.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:48:09.456286+08:00","text":"主席，謝謝委員！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:48:09.756286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:48:38.042000+08:00","text":"我還是覺得可以提醒一下提案委員，今天的質詢因為時間的關係，後半段關於所提到的目前監察院有委員在行使調查，我可以提醒大家，因為這是很善意的提醒，了解提案委員、調查委員的意思，就是為什麼監察院受理人民陳情，他要啟動調查？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:48:38.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:48:59.770571+08:00","text":"其實我們都以為是要針對被調查人的責任，去予以進行懲處，其實在本案上擔任這個公務行使的公務員本身，他已經超過了監察院行使調查之後所能夠進行的糾舉或彈劾的時限了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:49:00.070571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:49:02.642000+08:00","text":"但是對於誰有影響呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:49:02.942000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:49:08.370571+08:00","text":"對於當時受這個公務執行者的相對人有影響。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:49:08.670571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:49:21.242000+08:00","text":"根據我們2022年通過的權利回復條例，當事人要權復會受理這樣的權益侵害，他必須要有一個權威的調查結果。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:49:21.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:49:29.827714+08:00","text":"所以我認為，平心而論，大家聽聽看，我知道謝委員有注意在聽我這樣講。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:49:30.127714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:50:08.699143+08:00","text":"本案調查委員的用意未必是要針對被調查者，就是那個涉及可能違法行使公權力的公務員，追溯他的責任，並不是完全是在追究他的責任，而是要確定行使這個公務的執行有傷害到對造人民的權利，以便人民可以根據這樣一個法令的依據──權利回復條例，跟權復會來申請補償，這才是這個調查本身我覺得調查委員的用意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:50:08.999143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:50:39.570571+08:00","text":"如果大家可以體察這樣的用意，不要太用政治性的角度來思考，很清楚地，本案就算有公務員違法，他也超過目前監察院行使要對他彈劾的時效性了，所以或許是不是給當時的對造人，就是受害的民眾有機會透過監察院的調查，來申請回復他權利所必要的補償？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:50:39.870571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:50:58.727714+08:00","text":"我覺得這一點，在社會上一直沒有很清楚地被討論，所以提醒大家，我們委員在思考這個提案的時候，要注意到大家的力氣用對地方，以上懇請主席來做一個說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:50:59.027714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:51:00.027714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:51:00.327714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:51:04.042000+08:00","text":"請問還有沒有哪位委員要發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:51:04.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:51:05.484857+08:00","text":"來，吳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:51:05.784857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:51:27.784857+08:00","text":"針對提案2，如果我沒有看錯，這個被調查的對象之一侯友宜市長他很清楚地說，他坦蕩蕩，他也樂於接受調查，所以當事人侯友宜都表達他不害怕接受調查，那不曉得提案的委員在害怕什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:51:28.084857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:51:32.942000+08:00","text":"意圖要去阻卻監委獨立行使他的調查權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:51:33.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:09.527714+08:00","text":"第二個，同一個委員會的委員，我也是不好意思要提醒一下黃國昌委員，你們的柯文哲主席也都說黨團投票可以不用一次進出同樣的表態，黨團民眾黨內部都可以有自由意志的行使，那當然黃國昌總召今天也不一定都要跟著傅崐萁總召走，我是把柯文哲主席說的事情也提醒一下黃總召，希望能夠在一些……對！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:09.827714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:16.970571+08:00","text":"傅崐萁走了，不在，你也可以行使你的個人意志，我做這個提醒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:17.270571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:18.413429+08:00","text":"好，羅委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:18.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:22.142000+08:00","text":"羅委員剛剛不是已經說過了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:22.442000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:24.727714+08:00","text":"我是提案說明啊！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:25.027714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:27.027714+08:00","text":"不要那麼緊張嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:27.327714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:28.327714+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:28.627714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:32.913429+08:00","text":"還是黃國昌委員要換，還是哪一位先？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:33.213429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:34.642000+08:00","text":"好，國昌委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:34.942000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:35.942000+08:00","text":"OK，來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:36.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:46.813429+08:00","text":"我想針對這一個提案本身，它有它一定的射程範圍，但我只想要幫基層的檢察官說幾句話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:47.113429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:52:51.113429+08:00","text":"這個案子我支持，我為什麼支持呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:52:51.413429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:53:14.842000+08:00","text":"一個立委公開指控曲棍球協會理事長涉及詐領，檢察官偵辦的結果他不高興，就跑去施壓監察委員，民進黨自己提名的監察委員，然後針對這件事情要啟動調查，到底是誰在破壞監察院獨立行使職權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:53:15.142000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:53:22.856286+08:00","text":"結果追殺一次還不夠，懲戒法庭已經決議沒有要懲戒，再搞第二次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:53:23.156286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:53:54.584857+08:00","text":"我把基層檢察官組成的劍青檢改當初的抨擊，在委員會留下紀錄：人權監察院的人權監委為了護航政治勢力，公然追殺、報復承辦個案的基層檢察官，難道監察院是想要殺雞儆猴，讓全國檢察官噤若寒蟬，對政治正確的權貴違法亂紀之事，縮手裝死，服膺新興政治權貴嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:53:54.884857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:00.313429+08:00","text":"蔡總統，這就是您一再提名連任的監察委員嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:00.613429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:12.327714+08:00","text":"這是當初基層檢察官所提出來的怒吼，我覺得這些基層的檢察官必須要有一個公道還給他們，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:12.627714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:15.484857+08:00","text":"好，那羅委員還要發言嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:15.784857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:18.927714+08:00","text":"完全認同國昌委員的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:19.227714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:20.227714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:20.527714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:25.099143+08:00","text":"如果沒有委員要發言的話，我想說，一樣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:25.399143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:31.399143+08:00","text":"兩邊的看法還是差距過大，那我們就進行表決好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:31.699143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:43.699143+08:00","text":"好，臨時提案的第2案，我們現在進行表決，表決是用舉手表決的方式，表決前請先清點在場出席委員人數。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:43.999143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:45.427714+08:00","text":"（清點人數）好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:45.727714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:49.442000+08:00","text":"在場出席委員12位，現在開始表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:49.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:51.456286+08:00","text":"贊成者請舉手。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:51.756286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:53.184857+08:00","text":"（進行表決）好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:53.484857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:55.484857+08:00","text":"贊成者6位，請放下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:55.784857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:57.499143+08:00","text":"反對者請舉手。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:57.799143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:54:59.227714+08:00","text":"（進行表決）好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:54:59.527714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:01.527714+08:00","text":"反對者6位，請放下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:01.827714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:05.542000+08:00","text":"在場出席委員12人，贊成6位，反對6位……","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:05.842000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:09.270571+08:00","text":"你要不要展現一次你的正義……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:09.570571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:12.713429+08:00","text":"贊成者與反對者同數……好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:13.013429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:14.442000+08:00","text":"不要干擾啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:14.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:17.599143+08:00","text":"可否同數時取決於主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:17.899143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:29.042000+08:00","text":"現在主席表示贊成，所以表決結果為在場出席委員13人，贊成者7人，反對者6人，本案贊成者多數，通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:29.342000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:34.484857+08:00","text":"臨時提案已經處理完畢，現在繼續進行詢答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:34.784857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:38.499143+08:00","text":"接下來請翁曉玲委員進行詢答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:38.799143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:39.799143+08:00","text":"改書面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:40.099143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:43.242000+08:00","text":"好，翁曉玲委員改書面質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:43.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:47.256286+08:00","text":"接下來請賴士葆委員進行詢答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:47.556286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:50.413429+08:00","text":"賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:50.713429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:53.284857+08:00","text":"接下來請王鴻薇委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:53.584857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:55:56.442000+08:00","text":"王鴻薇委員改書面詢答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:55:56.742000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:56:01.884857+08:00","text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-04-29T11:56:02.184857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-04-29T11:56:03.613429+08:00","text":"委員質詢時……","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}