{"error":false,"id":["152911"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":152911,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152911","日期":"2024-05-23","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-25","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":25,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-23T11:08:07+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-23T11:22:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:29","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d339c8d1909fa453079f9b603f0eabd9bde51848baade829d34e896d657c5e838b571ebbc9e398835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:08:07 - 11:22:36","會議時間":"2024-05-23T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共4案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n三、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第三案（一）各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查；（四）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":1046,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時8分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長早。今天我們針對要落實打詐的配套洗錢防制法要做部分條文的修正，我想藉這個機會跟您快速地討論一下，我想這是一個觀念的分享，是一個思維的再精進。我過去長期在教育及文化委員會，我是臺灣藝術文化界在國會的代言人，所以我協助藝術文化界，當香港發生反送中事件，臺灣是一個最好的歷史契機，讓20年前臺灣作為亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的重要舞臺，能夠藉由此時此刻臺灣的經濟發展、臺灣的民主、社會秩序的穩定等等，現在是讓臺灣恢復亞洲藝術品拍賣中心關鍵的時刻。所以行政院也召開了多次的文化會報，定下了這一個政策方針，但法務部是有角色的，也許您會覺得很好奇，您跟藝術品有什麼關係？您有沒有去參加過藝博、藝術博覽會，有沒有收藏、購買藝術品的經驗，或是生活上的喜好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我對這個很有興趣，但是我沒有去參加過博覽會。"],["吳委員思瑤：下次我會邀請您來看。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：這跟法務部大有關係。就在5月10號到12號剛剛舉辦的「台北當代」，今年有19個國家地區78間藝廊來參展，短短3天3.5萬人進場，有非常多的藝術品的交易買賣，國內外都非常蓬勃地在臺灣精進、發生，這幾年的藝博會是非常hot，讓大家非常期待臺灣真的能夠重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的龍頭。","藝術品的拍賣是洗錢嗎？我要跟您分享的就是這個觀念，當我在協助很多的拍賣公司、拍賣產業或是藝術創作者，在修法的階段，或者是我現在秀出來的例子，當這些拍賣公司要更有國際競爭力，要IPO，不管是上市、上櫃，各種作為總會卡在法務部的立場，因為不管是證期局、證交所或是櫃買中心，在收受、受理這些拍賣公司要IPO的所有文件作業的審核過程就會被卡住，卡在一個藝術品拍賣就是洗錢、很容易洗錢，所以對於這樣子的行業設下了層層的關卡跟不友善，這是我要跟您分享的，這是藝文、藝術產業碰到的問題。這裡秀出來的是在IPO的審查作業當中，法務部門的法律解釋過於防弊大於興利，對於藝術拍賣產業污名化。","就本人在推動文化藝術獎助條例的修法，那個過程也是非常地辛苦，我們要擴大讓藝術品交易更進步，讓臺灣更有稅制競爭力，所以採分離課稅，而且稅制定為1.2%，2021年這一次的修法，我實在歷經千辛萬苦，因為財政部很保留，財政部很保留就來自於法務部的意見，因為買賣藝術品就可能洗錢，甚至它不是問號，幾乎是驚嘆號，讓我們在修法的過程，我們有一個很好的歷史契機能夠讓臺灣取代香港，活化臺灣的藝術品交易市場，在修法的過程也卡在法務部的法律解釋，那是觀念的問題。","所以藝術品拍賣到底是不是涉及洗錢？洗防辦跟法務部其實很清楚說目前沒有適用，因為在所有的交易相關作業裡頭都很清楚，清清楚楚、乾乾淨淨，金流買賣該登載的，所有的法制管控都做得非常完備。甚至在我們修了文獎條例之後，文化部在2020年召開的文化會報再次定調拍賣市場原則上不適用洗錢防制法之後，文化部也進一步訂定了一個子法，很明確地規定藝術品交易的金額超過50萬元就要在拍賣前1個月向文化部提出申請，而且主辦單位需要留存買賣雙方的資料達7年。","所以部長，我分享到這裡，我需要您政策上的宣示，法務部門對於洗錢防制、打詐、防詐都要做，但是對於正向地推動臺灣藝術文化的交易，這個國家軟實力，尤其要重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心這個重要的文化政策，法務部的立場要清楚、要堅定，支持藝文產業，yes or no？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，跟各位委員報告，我們是會支持文化產業，文化的這些藝術品的拍賣，當然是不適用洗防法，這大概……"],["吳委員思瑤：這要很清楚。"],["鄭部長銘謙：很清楚的。在個案上如果說有這種情況，那當然要有證據，有透過任何這種合法的方式來掩蓋非法，那是我們個案來處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，所以在個案上，如果真的有涉及洗錢，當然該辦就辦，但是在通案跟制度上，是本席今天在這裡質詢您很重要的部分，也就是在協助藝術拍賣公司或是相關產業或是藝術團隊，都要用更友善、更進步、更跟國際接軌的觀念來面對藝術品的交易市場，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝，您請回。","有請周萬來秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：秘書長，您在國會這麼多年，但我要說，您輔佐襄贊之下的韓院長上任3個月，就創下了過去立法院30年都沒有的國會惡例！第一個，黑箱喬條文，透明公開在哪裡？第二個，程序不正義，民主審查全都失靈；第三個，議事不中立，議事規則會轉彎，這跟您大有關係；第四個，表決不公平，一路做票做到贏，這也跟您大大相關！很抱歉，這是我必須對於這幾天審議國會擴權法案所呈現國會過去30年都沒有出現的國會惡例，我要提出強烈的批判！立法院不能黑箱喬條文、立法院不能夠程序不正義、立法院不能議事不中立、更不能表決不公平！跟您大有關係！","我看到國民黨的委員說，為什麼要用舉手表決呢？因為表決卡不見了，所以被迫要改成舉手表決，這是國民黨的委員在網路上錄製這種抹黑、造謠、栽贓的言論，他甚至說，表決卡不見了就是民進黨的委員偷走的！我問一下秘書長，我們立法院有這麼落後嗎？委員的表決卡不見了，你沒有其他的卡、空卡可以來做因應防範嗎？秘書長，請回答。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為卡在當時是被……因為某種因素被抽出、掉了。"],["吳委員思瑤：然後呢，你們都沒有備卡嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為……"],["吳委員思瑤：如果這樣，任何人要癱瘓立法院的議事，只要去幹走幾張卡、A走幾張卡就癱瘓議事了嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這一個當場立即的處理上……"],["吳委員思瑤：這不通嘛！如果這樣，是不是你要用一個金庫，每天下班之後立法院的表決卡要收好、層層防護，要有保全保護表決卡，沒有任何的備案嗎？這是什麼理由？更何況國民黨委員的指控是胡說八道、胡扯栽贓！","我們來看影片，誰手上拿著一疊表決卡？誰去搶表決卡？誰可以取代議事人員幫忙收卡？而且把卡插到表決委員的座位前面，而且沒有一個委員在座位上，是誰？是國民黨的徐欣瑩委員！我們來看一下影片，秘書長，你注意看一下這個影片，大家注意看一下這個影片！有沒有辦法傳？沒有辦法傳，是不是？好，也節省時間。我告訴秘書長，是該查！如果有表決卡不見了，該查是誰偷走、是誰蓄意地破壞議事秩序，但是就我們所搜證的結果，拿走一疊表決卡而且違反韓院長說的，唯有議事人員可以幫委員插卡，而且插卡的前提是委員坐在座位上。國民黨的徐欣瑩委員為什麼手上有一疊表決卡？他為什麼可以替沒有坐在座位上的國民黨委員插上表決卡？查清楚！查清楚！","第二個，表決卡如果不見，表決就不能進行了，就要改舉手表決，這立法院實在太落伍了吧！基本上我覺得是胡說八道啦，不會因為沒有表決卡就不能表決啦，你都有備卡、空卡可以來因應，舉手表決是為了什麼？舉手表決是為了一路做票做到底！這就是鐵證，在場只有108人，是清點人數之後報給韓院長的宣告，在場人數108人，贊成60人，否定50人。請問秘書長，60加50是多少？請回答！"],["周秘書長萬來：也可能是……"],["吳委員思瑤：請回答！60加50是？注意，有藐視國會罪喔！我直接問您60加50等於多少，秘書長？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為110裡面……"],["吳委員思瑤：我不希望秘書長是第一個吃上反質詢的官員喔，秘書長就回答我這個問題，60加50是多少？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為……"],["吳委員思瑤：簡單的數學問題，請回答。請回答，秘書長。主席，對不起，我要占用一點時間，因為這個數學問題秘書長沒有回答欸！"],["周秘書長萬來：這邊是寫110……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，60加50就是110人，可是在場人數韓院長的宣告是108人。舉手表決就是會出現這種混亂狀況，這是為什麼吳思瑤我作為黨團幹部，每一次表決我都要去遞一張重新清點人數、重新清點人數，這就是必要！我不要說是不是有作票的意圖，至少為了避免舉手表決可能產生的人數計算錯誤，就應當嚴謹地好好把每一次的表決人數算到底！","讓我們看一下楊瓊瓔委員的這個影片，瓊瓔委員您在場，看一下，好嗎？也沒有辦法看影片，是不是？就是當韓院長在宣告某一案表決的時候，民進黨只有51席，可是韓院長的宣告是，贊成民進黨要改記名表決的是53人，然後楊瓊瓔委員在場就說好幾次：民進黨怎麼可能53人、民進黨怎麼可能53人！楊瓊瓔委員是反應快，真的反應快，這要嘉獎，他都發現了韓院長沒有發現的問題，他也發現了秘書長沒有糾正的問題！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：民眾黨……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以舉手表決的重大……","好，楊瓊瓔委員現在改口說民進黨53人，他當天不是問號，他是驚嘆號，好棒喔，誰加入支持民進黨。那誰加入支持民進黨？用舉手表決算得出來、看得出來嗎？必須要記名表決、清清楚楚地對歷史負責，如果就楊瓊瓔委員說的，民進黨這個議案支持的是53票，那來看看是民眾黨的哪兩位支持民進黨，唯一的方式就是按鈕表決、記名對歷史負責，不是嗎？","我後面還有很多，我今天時間不夠。秘書長，明天又是一次的院會，這些失序、失靈還要再發生嗎？這些失序、失靈還要再發生嗎？唯一的解方您非常清楚，就是韓院長循正辦在3樓的協商會議室透過直播透明公開、回到協商場域，繼續針對沒有逐條討論的立法委員職權行使法、國會擴權法案逐條協商、逐條討論，這才是正辦，好嗎？"],["主席：時間關係，謝謝……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有討論，不是民主！"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝！"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有討論，不是民主！秘書長，您是非常重要襄贊院長主持要中立、公平的人！"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝！"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。不好意思，佔用時間。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝周秘書長。","接下來請楊委員瓊瓔發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-25","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","林思銘","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","郭國文","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-23"],"gazette_id":"1135001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於立法院主管預算凍結項目共 4案；二、處理113年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處主管預算凍結項目共1案；三、併案審查(一)行政院函請審議\n「洗錢防制法修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修\n正草案」案、(三)委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":0.03096875,"end":1.8703437500000002,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":12.46784375,"end":19.58909375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":19.80846875,"end":45.930968750000005,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":46.38659375,"end":76.39034375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":76.62659375,"end":84.70971875000001,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":86.70096875,"end":87.27471875,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":88.43909375000001,"end":95.18909375000001,"speaker_score":0.886},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":94.49721875,"end":96.96096875,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":96.42096875,"end":97.31534375000001,"speaker_score":0.886},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":97.24784375,"end":106.83284375000001,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":107.77784375,"end":122.66159375000001,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":123.42096875000001,"end":135.31784375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":136.24596875,"end":139.53659375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":140.34659375,"end":148.96971875,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":149.42534375,"end":177.40409375000002,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":177.87659375,"end":187.07346875000002,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":187.30971875,"end":201.23159375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":201.80534375000002,"end":205.14659375000002,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":206.54721875,"end":222.79784375000003,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":222.96659375000002,"end":223.03409375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":223.05096875,"end":228.36659375000002,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":229.26096875000002,"end":229.88534375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":230.45909375000002,"end":242.15346875,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":242.40659375,"end":244.87034375000002,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":245.86596875,"end":250.82721875000001,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":251.80596875,"end":259.43346875000003,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":260.51346875,"end":293.01471875000004,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":293.20034375,"end":314.19284375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":314.49659375000005,"end":335.06721875,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":335.33721875000003,"end":335.60721875,"speaker_score":0.886},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":336.75471875,"end":363.02909375,"speaker_score":0.886},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":348.51659375,"end":348.70221875000004,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":349.69784375,"end":350.64284375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":363.02909375,"end":381.64221875000004,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":381.97971875,"end":386.89034375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":386.97471875,"end":387.41346875000005,"speaker_score":0.886},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":387.41346875000005,"end":389.91096875000005,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":391.07534375,"end":392.00346875,"speaker_score":0.886},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":393.80909375000005,"end":394.06221875,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.87221875,"end":396.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":395.68221875,"end":396.32346875,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.49221875,"end":396.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":397.6059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鄭部長"},{"start":12.646,"end":32.899,"text":"部長長,今天我們針對要落實打詐的配套洗錢防制法要做部分條文的修正。那我想藉這個機會跟您快速的討論一下,我想這是一個觀念的分享,是一個思維的再精進。我過去長期在教育文化委員會,我是台灣藝術文化界在國會的代言人。"},{"start":33.579,"end":45.527,"text":"所以我協助藝術文化界當香港發生反送中事件台灣是一個最好的歷史契機讓20年前台灣作為亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的重要的"},{"start":46.448,"end":50.711,"text":"此時此刻台灣的經濟發展台灣的民主社會秩序的穩定等等現在是讓台灣恢復亞洲藝術品拍賣中心關鍵的時刻所以行政院也召開了多次的文化會報定下了這一個政策方針但法務部是有角色的也許您會覺得很好奇您跟藝術品有什麼關係好下一頁"},{"start":76.751,"end":84.435,"text":"您有沒有去參加過藝博藝術博覽會有沒有收藏購買藝術品的這個經驗或是生活上的喜好按鈕跟委員報告我對這個很有興趣但是我沒有去參加過博覽會下一次我會邀請您來看好謝謝這跟法務部大有關係下一頁就5月10號到12號剛剛舉辦的台北當代"},{"start":107.829,"end":116.972,"text":"這個今年有19個國家地區78間藝廊來參展短短三天3.5萬人進場有非常多的藝術品的交易買賣國內外都非常蓬勃的在台灣精進發聲這幾年的藝博會是非常hot非常讓大家能夠期待台灣真的能夠重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的龍頭好下一頁"},{"start":136.657,"end":160.862,"text":"藝術品的拍賣是洗錢嗎?我要跟您分享的就是這個觀念當我在協助很多的拍賣公司拍賣產業或是藝術創作者在修法的階段或者是我現在秀出來的例子當這些拍賣公司要更有國際競爭力要IPO不管是上市上櫃各種作為總會卡在法務部的立場"},{"start":162.722,"end":176.259,"text":"因為不管是政期局、政交所或是櫃買中心在收受、受理這些拍賣公司他要IPO的所有文件作業的審核過程就會被卡住卡在一個藝術品拍賣"},{"start":177.961,"end":200.946,"text":"就是洗錢很容易洗錢所以這樣子的一個行業設下了很多層層的關卡跟不友善這是我要跟您分享的這是藝文藝術產業碰到的問題這裡秀出來的是在IPO的審查作業當中法務部門的法律解釋過於防弊大於行李對於藝術拍賣產業污名化下一頁"},{"start":206.544,"end":206.884,"text":"我實在歷經千辛萬苦。"},{"start":229.315,"end":250.574,"text":"因為財政部很保留就來自於法務部的意見因為買賣藝術品就可能洗錢甚至他不是問號幾乎是驚嘆號讓我們在修法的過程我們有一個很好的歷史契機能夠讓台灣取代香港"},{"start":251.86,"end":252.401,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":260.563,"end":281.729,"text":"所以藝術品拍賣到底是不是涉及洗錢?洗防辦跟法務部其實很清楚說嘛目前沒有適用嘛因為在所有的交易的相關的作業裡頭都很清楚清清楚楚乾乾淨淨金流買賣該登載的所有的法治管控都做得非常的完備甚至在我們修了文獎條例之後文化部在2020年召開了文化會報"},{"start":287.35,"end":313.81,"text":"再次定調之後拍賣市場原則上不是用洗錢防制法之後文化部也進一步定定了一個執法很明確的將藝術品交易的金額超過五十萬元就要在拍賣前一個月向文化部提出申請而且主辦單位需要留存買賣雙方的資料達七年所以部長我分享到這裡我需要您政策上的宣誓"},{"start":314.611,"end":314.631,"text":"議員吳思瑤"},{"start":337.009,"end":337.029,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":363.132,"end":389.474,"text":"所以在個案上若有真的涉及洗錢當然該辦就辦但是在通案跟制度上是本席今天在這裡質詢您很重要的部分也就是在協助藝術拍賣公司或是相關的產業或是藝術團隊都要用更友善更進步更跟國際接軌的觀念來面對藝術品的交易市場好嗎是好那謝謝您請回有請周愛蘭秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":395.396,"end":395.718,"text":"吳委員好"},{"start":397.677,"end":421.977,"text":"您在國會這麼多年但我要說您輔佐相戰之下的韓院長上任三個月就創下了過去立法院三十年都沒有的國會惡例第一個黑箱橋條文透明公開在哪裡第二個程序不正義民主審查全都失靈第三個議事不中立議事規則會轉彎這跟您大有關係"},{"start":425.305,"end":443.642,"text":"第四個表決不公平一路做票做到贏這也跟您大大相關很抱歉這是我必須對於這幾天審議國會擴權法案所呈現的國會過去30年都沒有出現的國會惡例我要提出強烈的批判"},{"start":444.443,"end":455.553,"text":"律法院不能黑箱橋條文律法院不能夠程序不正義律法院不能議事不中立更不能表決不公平跟您大有關係下頁"},{"start":457.694,"end":460.736,"text":"我看到國民黨的委員說為什麼要用舉手表決呢因為啊表決卡不見了所以被迫啊要改成舉手表決這是國民黨的委員在網路上錄製這種抹黑、造謠、栽贓的言論他甚至說表決卡不見了就是民進黨的委員偷走的我問一下秘書長我們地方議員有沒有這麼落後"},{"start":486.587,"end":494.76,"text":"委員的表決卡不見了。你沒有其他的空卡可以來做因應防範嗎?對手對友請回答。"},{"start":500.458,"end":515.751,"text":"因為卡在當時是被這個因為某種因素被抽出掉了然後呢你們都沒有被卡嗎?如果這樣任何人要癱瘓立法院的議事只要去幹走幾張卡A走幾張卡就癱瘓議事了嗎?因為這個當場的立即的處理上這不通嘛"},{"start":522.489,"end":535.684,"text":"那如果這樣是不是你要用一個金庫每天下班之後立法院的表決卡要收好殘殘防護要有保全保護表決卡沒有任何的備案嗎?"},{"start":537.817,"end":561.975,"text":"這什麼理由?更何況國民黨委員的指控是胡說八道胡扯栽贓下頁我們來看影片誰手上拿著一疊表決卡誰去搶表決卡誰可以取代議事人員幫忙收卡而且把卡插到表決的委員的座位前面而且沒有一個委員在座位上"},{"start":563.027,"end":571.723,"text":"是誰?是國民黨的徐欣盈委員。我們來看一下影片。秘書長你注意看一下這個影片。大家注意看一下這個影片。"},{"start":572.998,"end":573.098,"text":"有沒有辦法傳?"},{"start":573.098,"end":573.639,"text":"沒有辦法傳是不是?"},{"start":573.639,"end":574.96,"text":"好也節省時間我告訴秘書長是該查如果有表決卡不見了該查是誰偷走是誰蓄意地破壞議事秩序但是就我們所搜證的結果拿走一疊表決卡"},{"start":593.158,"end":620.648,"text":"而且在違反韓院長說的唯有議事人員可以幫委員插卡而且插卡的前提是委員坐在座位上國民黨的徐欣穎委員為什麼手上有一疊表決卡她為什麼可以替沒有坐在座位上的國民黨委員插上表決卡查清楚查清楚第二個表決卡如果不見了表決就不能進行了就要改舉手表決這立法院實在太落伍了吧"},{"start":621.755,"end":623.637,"text":"五（五（五（五（五（五（五（五（"},{"start":641.932,"end":650.659,"text":"在場只有108人是清點人數之後報給韓院長的宣誓宣告在場人數108人贊成60人否定50人請問秘書長60加50是多少請回答"},{"start":662.07,"end":678.178,"text":"請回答60加50是注意喔有藐視國會罪喔我直接問您喔60加50等於多少秘書長我不希望秘書長是第一個吃上反質詢的官員喔秘書長就回答我這個問題60加50是多少簡單的數學問題是請回答"},{"start":687.444,"end":700.879,"text":"請回答秘書長主席對不起我要佔有一點時間因為這個問題數學問題秘書長沒有回答欸這邊是寫110好60加50就是110人可是在場人數韓院長的宣告是108人"},{"start":703.161,"end":730.562,"text":"舉手表決就是會出現這種混亂狀況就是為什麼吳思瑤我作為黨團幹部我每一次表決我都要去第一章重新清點人數重新清點人數這就是必要好我不要說是不是有作票的意圖至少為了避免舉手表決可能產生的人數計算的錯誤就應當嚴謹的來好好把每一次的表決人數算到底下一頁"},{"start":731.603,"end":756.318,"text":"讓我看一下楊瓊英委員的這個影片齁瓊英委員您在場齁看一下好嗎也沒有辦法看影片是不是就是當韓院長在宣告某一案的表決的時候民進黨只有51席啊可是韓院長的宣告是民進黨的贊成方舉手 贊成舉手表決的 贊成要改記名表決的是53人"},{"start":759.281,"end":760.962,"text":"然後楊瓊英委員在場齁（就講幾個字就講明鏡黨怎麼可能有53人啊明鏡黨怎麼可能53人這是楊瓊英委員在這楊瓊英委員是反應快真的反應快這要加獎他都發現了韓院長沒有發現的問題他也發現了秘書長沒有糾正的問題"},{"start":778.18,"end":793.439,"text":"所以舉手表決的重大好那楊雄一委員現在改口說民進黨53人他當天不是問號他是驚嘆號好棒喔誰加入支持民進黨那誰加入支持民進黨用舉手表決算得出來看得出來嗎"},{"start":794.949,"end":824.128,"text":"必須要記名表決清清楚楚的對歷史負責如果就楊瓊英委員說的民進黨這個議案支持的是53票那來看看是民眾黨的哪兩位支持民進黨唯一的方式就是按鈕表決記名對歷史負責不是嗎我後面還有很多今天時間不夠我要請秘書長明天又是一次的院會這些失序失靈還要再發生嗎"},{"start":825.93,"end":842.461,"text":"這些失序失靈還要再發生嗎?唯一的解方您非常清楚就是韓院長循政辦在三樓的協商會議室透過直播透明公開回到協商場域繼續針對沒有逐條討論的立法委員職權行使法國會擴權法案逐條協商逐條討論這才是正辦"},{"start":853.628,"end":853.909,"text":"接下來請楊委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:08:07.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:08:08.037000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-23T11:08:19.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:08:20.327000+08:00","text":"請鄭部長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-05-23T11:08:20.327000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:08:21.327000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:08:20.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:08:20.327000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:08:20.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:08:34.916000+08:00","text":"今天我們針對要落實打詐的配套洗錢防制法要做部分條文的修正，我想藉這個機會跟您快速地討論一下，我想這是一個觀念的分享，是一個思維的再精進。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:08:34.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:08:54.789000+08:00","text":"我過去長期在教育及文化委員會，我是臺灣藝術文化界在國會的代言人，所以我協助藝術文化界，當香港發生反送中事件，臺灣是一個最好的歷史契機，讓20年前臺灣作為亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的重要舞臺，能夠藉由此時此刻臺灣的經濟發展、臺灣的民主、社會秩序的穩定等等，現在是讓臺灣恢復亞洲藝術品拍賣中心關鍵的時刻。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:08:54.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:08:57.651000+08:00","text":"所以行政院也召開了多次的文化會報，定下了這一個政策方針，但法務部是有角色的，也許您會覺得很好奇，您跟藝術品有什麼關係？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:09:23.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:09:28.794000+08:00","text":"您有沒有去參加過藝博、藝術博覽會，有沒有收藏、購買藝術品的經驗，或是生活上的喜好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-05-23T11:09:29.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:09:30.355000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我對這個很有興趣，但是我沒有去參加過博覽會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:09:30.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:09:30.575000+08:00","text":"下次我會邀請您來看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-05-23T11:09:30.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:09:30.695000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:09:30.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:09:30.975000+08:00","text":"這跟法務部大有關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:09:31.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:10:03.572000+08:00","text":"就在5月10號到12號剛剛舉辦的「台北當代」，今年有19個國家地區78間藝廊來參展，短短3天3.5萬人進場，有非常多的藝術品的交易買賣，國內外都非常蓬勃地在臺灣精進、發生，這幾年的藝博會是非常hot，讓大家非常期待臺灣真的能夠重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心的龍頭。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:10:23.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:10:27.418000+08:00","text":"藝術品的拍賣是洗錢嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:10:27.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:11:20.444000+08:00","text":"我要跟您分享的就是這個觀念，當我在協助很多的拍賣公司、拍賣產業或是藝術創作者，在修法的階段，或者是我現在秀出來的例子，當這些拍賣公司要更有國際競爭力，要IPO，不管是上市、上櫃，各種作為總會卡在法務部的立場，因為不管是證期局、證交所或是櫃買中心，在收受、受理這些拍賣公司要IPO的所有文件作業的審核過程就會被卡住，卡在一個藝術品拍賣就是洗錢、很容易洗錢，所以對於這樣子的行業設下了層層的關卡跟不友善，這是我要跟您分享的，這是藝文、藝術產業碰到的問題。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:11:20.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:11:27.886000+08:00","text":"這裡秀出來的是在IPO的審查作業當中，法務部門的法律解釋過於防弊大於興利，對於藝術拍賣產業污名化。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:11:27.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:12:17.554000+08:00","text":"就本人在推動文化藝術獎助條例的修法，那個過程也是非常地辛苦，我們要擴大讓藝術品交易更進步，讓臺灣更有稅制競爭力，所以採分離課稅，而且稅制定為1.2%，2021年這一次的修法，我實在歷經千辛萬苦，因為財政部很保留，財政部很保留就來自於法務部的意見，因為買賣藝術品就可能洗錢，甚至它不是問號，幾乎是驚嘆號，讓我們在修法的過程，我們有一個很好的歷史契機能夠讓臺灣取代香港，活化臺灣的藝術品交易市場，在修法的過程也卡在法務部的法律解釋，那是觀念的問題。","quality":0.414},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:12:27.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:12:30.344000+08:00","text":"所以藝術品拍賣到底是不是涉及洗錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:12:30.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:12:46.368000+08:00","text":"洗防辦跟法務部其實很清楚說目前沒有適用，因為在所有的交易相關作業裡頭都很清楚，清清楚楚、乾乾淨淨，金流買賣該登載的，所有的法制管控都做得非常完備。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:12:46.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:13:15.626000+08:00","text":"甚至在我們修了文獎條例之後，文化部在2020年召開的文化會報再次定調拍賣市場原則上不適用洗錢防制法之後，文化部也進一步訂定了一個子法，很明確地規定藝術品交易的金額超過50萬元就要在拍賣前1個月向文化部提出申請，而且主辦單位需要留存買賣雙方的資料達7年。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:13:15.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:13:26.527200+08:00","text":"所以部長，我分享到這裡，我需要您政策上的宣示，法務部門對於洗錢防制、打詐、防詐都要做，但是對於正向地推動臺灣藝術文化的交易，這個國家軟實力，尤其要重回亞洲藝術品拍賣中心這個重要的文化政策，法務部的立場要清楚、要堅定，支持藝文產業，yes or no？","quality":0.173},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-05-23T11:13:26.527200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:13:37.428400+08:00","text":"是，跟各位委員報告，我們是會支持文化產業，文化的這些藝術品的拍賣，當然是不適用洗防法，這大概……","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:13:37.428400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:13:48.329600+08:00","text":"這要很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-05-23T11:13:48.329600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:13:59.230800+08:00","text":"很清楚的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2024-05-23T11:13:59.230800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:14:10.132000+08:00","text":"在個案上如果說有這種情況，那當然要有證據，有透過任何這種合法的方式來掩蓋非法，那是我們個案來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:14:10.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:14:34.112000+08:00","text":"好，所以在個案上，如果真的有涉及洗錢，當然該辦就辦，但是在通案跟制度上，是本席今天在這裡質詢您很重要的部分，也就是在協助藝術拍賣公司或是相關產業或是藝術團隊，都要用更友善、更進步、更跟國際接軌的觀念來面對藝術品的交易市場，好嗎？是。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:14:34.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:14:35.553000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，您請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:14:35.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:14:36.334000+08:00","text":"有請周萬來秘書長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-23T11:14:36.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:14:36.474000+08:00","text":"請周秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-05-23T11:14:42.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:14:42.698000+08:00","text":"吳委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:14:44.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:14:55.646000+08:00","text":"秘書長，您在國會這麼多年，但我要說，您輔佐襄贊之下的韓院長上任3個月，就創下了過去立法院30年都沒有的國會惡例！","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:14:56.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:15:00.751000+08:00","text":"第一個，黑箱喬條文，透明公開在哪裡？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:15:00.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:15:20.052000+08:00","text":"第二個，程序不正義，民主審查全都失靈；第三個，議事不中立，議事規則會轉彎，這跟您大有關係；第四個，表決不公平，一路做票做到贏，這也跟您大大相關！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:15:20.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:15:30.622000+08:00","text":"很抱歉，這是我必須對於這幾天審議國會擴權法案所呈現國會過去30年都沒有出現的國會惡例，我要提出強烈的批判！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:15:31.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:15:40.371000+08:00","text":"立法院不能黑箱喬條文、立法院不能夠程序不正義、立法院不能議事不中立、更不能表決不公平！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:15:41.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:15:42.533000+08:00","text":"跟您大有關係！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:15:44.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:15:45.234000+08:00","text":"我看到國民黨的委員說，為什麼要用舉手表決呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:15:45.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:15:47.295000+08:00","text":"因為表決卡不見了，所以被迫要改成舉手表決，這是國民黨的委員在網路上錄製這種抹黑、造謠、栽贓的言論，他甚至說，表決卡不見了就是民進黨的委員偷走的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:15:47.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:15:47.716000+08:00","text":"我問一下秘書長，我們立法院有這麼落後嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:16:13.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:16:21.420000+08:00","text":"委員的表決卡不見了，你沒有其他的卡、空卡可以來做因應防範嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:16:21.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:16:21.740000+08:00","text":"秘書長，請回答。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-05-23T11:16:27.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:16:34.424000+08:00","text":"因為卡在當時是被……因為某種因素被抽出、掉了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:16:34.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:16:37.386000+08:00","text":"然後呢，你們都沒有備卡嗎？因為……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:16:37.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:16:42.070000+08:00","text":"如果這樣，任何人要癱瘓立法院的議事，只要去幹走幾張卡、A走幾張卡就癱瘓議事了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-05-23T11:16:42.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:16:42.531000+08:00","text":"因為這一個當場立即的處理上……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:16:42.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:16:42.731000+08:00","text":"這不通嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:16:49.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:02.684000+08:00","text":"如果這樣，是不是你要用一個金庫，每天下班之後立法院的表決卡要收好、層層防護，要有保全保護表決卡，沒有任何的備案嗎？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:04.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:05.197000+08:00","text":"這是什麼理由？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:05.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:09.941000+08:00","text":"更何況國民黨委員的指控是胡說八道、胡扯栽贓！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:11.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:14.324000+08:00","text":"我們來看影片，誰手上拿著一疊表決卡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:15.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:16.706000+08:00","text":"誰去搶表決卡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:17.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:20.509000+08:00","text":"誰可以取代議事人員幫忙收卡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:21.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:31.109000+08:00","text":"而且把卡插到表決委員的座位前面，而且沒有一個委員在座位上，是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:31.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:33.554000+08:00","text":"是國民黨的徐欣瑩委員！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:33.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:38.703000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下影片，秘書長，你注意看一下這個影片，大家注意看一下這個影片！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:39.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:40.098000+08:00","text":"有沒有辦法傳？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:40.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:40.619000+08:00","text":"沒有辦法傳，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:40.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:40.699000+08:00","text":"好，也節省時間。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:40.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:17:40.839000+08:00","text":"我告訴秘書長，是該查！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:17:40.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:07.901000+08:00","text":"如果有表決卡不見了，該查是誰偷走、是誰蓄意地破壞議事秩序，但是就我們所搜證的結果，拿走一疊表決卡而且違反韓院長說的，唯有議事人員可以幫委員插卡，而且插卡的前提是委員坐在座位上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:08.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:11.882000+08:00","text":"國民黨的徐欣瑩委員為什麼手上有一疊表決卡？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:12.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:16.464000+08:00","text":"他為什麼可以替沒有坐在座位上的國民黨委員插上表決卡？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:17.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:17.524000+08:00","text":"查清楚！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:18.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:19.465000+08:00","text":"查清楚！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:20.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:27.628000+08:00","text":"第二個，表決卡如果不見，表決就不能進行了，就要改舉手表決，這立法院實在太落伍了吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:27.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:38.280000+08:00","text":"基本上我覺得是胡說八道啦，不會因為沒有表決卡就不能表決啦，你都有備卡、空卡可以來因應，舉手表決是為了什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:38.280000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:48.932000+08:00","text":"舉手表決是為了一路做票做到底！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:48.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:57.199000+08:00","text":"這就是鐵證，在場只有108人，是清點人數之後報給韓院長的宣告，在場人數108人，贊成60人，否定50人。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:57.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:57.459000+08:00","text":"請問秘書長，60加50是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:57.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:18:57.639000+08:00","text":"請回答！","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-05-23T11:18:57.639000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:09.070000+08:00","text":"也可能是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:09.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:12.071000+08:00","text":"請回答！60加50是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:12.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:13.772000+08:00","text":"注意，有藐視國會罪喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:14.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:18.454000+08:00","text":"我直接問您60加50等於多少，秘書長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:18.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:19.454000+08:00","text":"因為110裡面……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:18.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:24.617000+08:00","text":"我不希望秘書長是第一個吃上反質詢的官員喔，秘書長就回答我這個問題，60加50是多少？因為……","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:24.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:25.158000+08:00","text":"簡單的數學問題，請回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:34.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:35.505000+08:00","text":"請回答，秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:35.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:41.112000+08:00","text":"主席，對不起，我要占用一點時間，因為這個數學問題秘書長沒有回答欸！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"周秘書長萬來","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:41.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:42.894000+08:00","text":"這邊是寫110……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:42.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:19:47.859000+08:00","text":"好，60加50就是110人，可是在場人數韓院長的宣告是108人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:19:50.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:20:02.311000+08:00","text":"舉手表決就是會出現這種混亂狀況，這是為什麼吳思瑤我作為黨團幹部，每一次表決我都要去遞一張重新清點人數、重新清點人數，這就是必要！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:20:02.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:20:17.082000+08:00","text":"我不要說是不是有作票的意圖，至少為了避免舉手表決可能產生的人數計算錯誤，就應當嚴謹地好好把每一次的表決人數算到底！","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:20:18.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:20:24.507000+08:00","text":"讓我們看一下楊瓊瓔委員的這個影片，瓊瓔委員您在場，看一下，好嗎？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:20:24.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:20:25.707000+08:00","text":"也沒有辦法看影片，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:20:26.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:20:46.901000+08:00","text":"就是當韓院長在宣告某一案表決的時候，民進黨只有51席，可是韓院長的宣告是，贊成民進黨要改記名表決的是53人，然後楊瓊瓔委員在場就說好幾次：民進黨怎麼可能53人、民進黨怎麼可能53人！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:20:46.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:20:47.962000+08:00","text":"楊瓊瓔委員是反應快，真的反應快，這要嘉獎，他都發現了韓院長沒有發現的問題，他也發現了秘書長沒有糾正的問題！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-05-23T11:20:47.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:21:05.180000+08:00","text":"民眾黨……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:21:05.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:21:08.845000+08:00","text":"所以舉手表決的重大……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:21:09.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:21:16.614000+08:00","text":"好，楊瓊瓔委員現在改口說民進黨53人，他當天不是問號，他是驚嘆號，好棒喔，誰加入支持民進黨。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:21:16.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:21:18.537000+08:00","text":"那誰加入支持民進黨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:21:18.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:21:20.439000+08:00","text":"用舉手表決算得出來、看得出來嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:21:21.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:21:41.602000+08:00","text":"必須要記名表決、清清楚楚地對歷史負責，如果就楊瓊瓔委員說的，民進黨這個議案支持的是53票，那來看看是民眾黨的哪兩位支持民進黨，唯一的方式就是按鈕表決、記名對歷史負責，不是嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:21:41.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:21:44.544000+08:00","text":"我後面還有很多，我今天時間不夠。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:21:45.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:21:51.128000+08:00","text":"秘書長，明天又是一次的院會，這些失序、失靈還要再發生嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:21:52.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:21:56.312000+08:00","text":"這些失序、失靈還要再發生嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:21:56.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:22:09.461000+08:00","text":"唯一的解方您非常清楚，就是韓院長循正辦在3樓的協商會議室透過直播透明公開、回到協商場域，繼續針對沒有逐條討論的立法委員職權行使法、國會擴權法案逐條協商、逐條討論，這才是正辦，好嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-23T11:22:09.461000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:22:11.056286+08:00","text":"時間關係，謝謝……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:22:11.056286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:22:12.651571+08:00","text":"沒有討論，不是民主！謝謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:22:12.651571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:22:14.246857+08:00","text":"沒有討論，不是民主！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:22:14.246857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:22:15.842143+08:00","text":"秘書長，您是非常重要襄贊院長主持要中立、公平的人！謝謝！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:22:15.842143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:22:17.437429+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-05-23T11:22:17.437429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:22:19.032714+08:00","text":"不好意思，佔用時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-23T11:22:19.032714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-23T11:22:20.628000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳委員、謝謝周秘書長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-23T11:22:20.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-23T11:22:20.909000+08:00","text":"接下來請楊委員瓊瓔發言。","quality":0.636}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}