{"error":false,"id":["153234"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153234,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153234","日期":"2024-05-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-22-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-29T10:50:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-29T10:59:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e13311f8e95cbe5014678d0e137800dc086eaa3ee6acdf2d5e9870c7a3ba716382fef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:50:20 - 10:59:27","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時50分）謝謝主席，有請核安會陳主委，還有經濟部林次長。"],["主席：好，請主委跟次長，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：林委員好。"],["林次長全能：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：大家好。我想依照環境基本法第二十三條的精神，政府應訂定計畫，逐步達成非核家園的目標，除了本於環境保護的精神，我們本來就應該要逐步降低對核能發電的使用，最後核電歸零。而面對臺灣現在核電廠已經實質除役或即將除役的情形，本席認為倡議現有核電廠延役繼續發電，我覺得不但短視近利，而且他們忽略各種龐大且深不可測的成本。","怎麼說？有不少支持臺灣現在不應該放棄核電的人士，常常用國際的標準說核電是乾淨的能源，作為論述的資料，可是本席認為核能發電完全無法符合綠電的概念，所以我認為核電不等於綠電。在核廢料沒有獲得妥善處置的前提之下，核電就是不正義的能源，就是不永續的能源，即便核能發電屬於相對低碳排，可是我們要興建核能廢料處置設施，也會產生很大的碳排，而且最重要的是核廢污染對後代的負面影響甚大。用盡所有手段，要求重啟核電，就會製造更多的核廢料、更多的不正義。","我想，要擁核卻又忽視核廢料在貯存上有許多的難處，像是選址的困難，像是現有的燃料池滿載，以及長期貯放場規劃的時程還很長等等問題。這就好比你生了一個孩子，你只想玩他，可是又不想生養他，不管也不處理他的吃喝拉撒等等，這很顯然的，就是忽視核廢料處置的人很不負責任的概念。","如果除役的進程確定，核廢料的數量就會固定不變，我們或許就可以比較具體的來規劃核廢料處置設置的計畫。可是一旦核電廠延役，核廢料就會隨之增加，不僅增加核廢料處置計畫的不確定性，也降低人民對政府處置核廢料的信心，當然也恐怕會增加跟社會溝通的困難。核安會的業務包含核廢料的監管，延役顯然會導致核廢料問題，更欠缺社會共識，並且更難解決。要請教主委跟次長，你們是否同意核電廠延役確實將造成更難解決的核廢料問題？"],["陳主任委員東陽：誠如委員講的，延役當然會使核廢料逐漸增加，會增加將來處理的複雜跟難度。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，所以次長也同意？"],["林次長全能：我想生產就一定產生廢料，廢料的貯存目前是一個很複雜的問題，我同意。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，接下來想要討論，之所以有人要擁核，讓核電廠延役，他們的理由是有助穩定電價，可是這種觀點，我覺得他就忽略了延役過程中為了確保機組的運作安全跟效率，需要進行機組更新的成本問題，這個都沒有想過。除了機組更新的成本，核安的措施也是成本之一。尤其在臺灣是被複合式災害威脅的島嶼，我們有颱風，我們有地震這種天災，所以安全性的問題真的不容忽視。","簡言之，機組的更新跟安全的維護兩者資金的投入，應該會相當的可觀，不能單看電價相對低的觀點來切入而已。關於機組更新跟維護成本這個部分，核安會跟經濟部是否有審慎的評估過，確切大約會是什麼樣的數字？"],["林次長全能：委員，我是不是可以請台電來回應？"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["許副總理理永輝：這部分牽涉到設備的更新還有安全這一塊，所以目前這個數字，委員講的沒有錯，的確是龐大。"],["林委員宜瑾：是一個非常龐大的數字，所以也還沒有辦法估出這麼龐大的數字大約會是多少？"],["許副總理理永輝：是，目前來講還沒有估出來。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，OK。我想沒有人希望核災發生，我現在想就教主委，在核子事故緊急應變計畫的疏散規劃裡，我們是以8公里內在籍人數3萬人為考量，而不是考量非在籍實居的工作人口十幾萬人，這是否會低估疏散的時間以及救護跟安置的需求？","以恆春核三廠聯外道路的台26線來看，遇到春假、寒暑假或大型活動，最近幾年幾乎都有差不多超過26萬人出入墾丁的臺灣祭。遇到這樣的情形，主委你會有更進一步或規劃更細緻的緊急應變計畫嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：緊急應變計畫是在電廠8公里之內，我們叫EPZ Zone，就是緊急應變區域。對於流動的人口，我們沒有辦法即時掌握，特別是觀光客，就像委員提到的。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這一部分當然有不確定性。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以我覺得你們在規劃中其實還要再加入這些，因為像核三廠所在地恆春，觀光客的數量確實是龐大的，特別遇到一些假日，如果在特別的假日發生任何的核災問題，你們這個應變計畫就要更週延一點。","另外，依據核三廠地震危害與篩選報告，核三廠東側緊鄰恆春活動斷層，西側外海又有所謂的逆衝斷層，廠內核島區底下的淺層地質又發現剪裂與背斜等地層變形，地表的加速度可達1.384G。我想不僅是三座核電廠最高，也超過核三廠可以安全停機的耐震程度0.72G。所以本席認為當初就已經缺乏詳細資料來評估而不當選址，陸續研究出來這些地質的事證，更是不支持核電廠繼續在這裡運作。有這樣的潛在風險，在燃料棒都還在廠內貯存的情況之下，還需要哪些廠區的安全補強措施？補強措施需要多久的時間？請問主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：關於這個部分，其實我們最近做SSHAC Level 3，報告正在台電，我們會來檢視，後續如果有必要，會再做進一步補強。但是在更低的加速度時，其實我們有一個安全自動緊急關閉的裝置。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，最後本席要重申立場，我堅決反對老舊核電廠延役，也反對任何為延役或重啟開後門的修法。我想核能涉及專業的評估，絕非政治的操作，不要讓今天的決定成為明天的困境，以上。謝謝主委，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，我們就先休息5分鐘。謝謝。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":0.03096875,"end":2.7815937500000003,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":7.16909375,"end":14.442218750000002,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.41221875,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.45846875,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":19.032218750000002,"end":20.16284375,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":20.719718750000002,"end":158.58846875,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":159.19596875000002,"end":210.10784375,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.92596875,"end":224.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.56534375,"end":225.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.58221875,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":225.61596875,"end":227.35409375,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.35409375,"end":232.90596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":229.44659375,"end":229.88534375,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":232.90596875000003,"end":303.40971875,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.00846875,"end":308.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.62784375,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.26346875,"end":321.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.87096875000003,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":322.02284375,"end":328.16534375000003,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.06471875,"end":324.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.16534375000003,"end":329.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":329.95409375,"end":329.97096875,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.97096875,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":330.03846875000005,"end":330.93284375,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":331.69221875,"end":383.58284375000005,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.05096875000004,"end":392.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.26909375,"end":406.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":397.97721875,"end":398.48346875000004,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":404.06909375000004,"end":404.45721875000004,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.44409375000004,"end":409.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":409.57034375,"end":413.38409375000003,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":413.92409375000005,"end":495.64971875000003,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.83096875,"end":519.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.47721875,"end":521.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員宜瑾","start":521.9072187500001,"end":547.16909375,"speaker_score":0.833}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.349,"end":13.636,"text":"質詢完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘謝謝謝謝主席有請河安會陳楚偉還有經濟部林次長好我們請主委跟次長謝謝"},{"start":17.495,"end":35.822,"text":"林委員好委員好大家好我想依照環境基本法第二三條的精神政府應訂定計劃逐步達成非核家園的目標除了本與環境保護的精神我們本來就應該要逐步降低對核能發電的使用最後核電歸零"},{"start":37.122,"end":40.563,"text":"而在面對台灣現在的核電廠已經實質除役或即將除役的情形本席認為倡議現有核電廠延役繼續發電我覺得不但短視近利而且他們忽略了各種龐大而且深不可測的成本怎麼說"},{"start":59.787,"end":80.486,"text":"﹗"},{"start":80.586,"end":81.046,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":106.886,"end":127.605,"text":"最重要的還是核廢污染是對後代的負面影響影響甚大所以用盡所謂的手段要要求重啟核電就會製造更多的核廢料更多的不正義那我想要擁核卻又忽視核廢料在儲存上有許多的難處"},{"start":128.626,"end":129.666,"text":"這就是很顯然的你忽視了核廢料的處置的人就好像真的很不負責任"},{"start":159.312,"end":183.375,"text":"的這種概念好那如果說除役的進程確定那核廢料的數量就會固定不變那我們或許就可以比較具體的來規劃核廢料處置設置的計畫可是一旦核電廠延役那核廢料就會隨之增加那不僅增加核廢料處置計畫的不確定性也降低人民對政府喔"},{"start":183.835,"end":209.325,"text":"主持核廢料信心當然又恐怕會增加跟社會溝通的困難所以核安會的業務當然包含核廢料的監管那延役顯然會導致核廢料問題更欠缺的社會共識並且更難解決所以要請教主委跟次長你們是否同意核電廠延役確實將造成更難解決的核廢料問題"},{"start":213.407,"end":220.492,"text":"陳主委員講的那個延役當然這個核廢料會逐漸增加然後那麼這個會增加這個將來處理的複雜跟難度"},{"start":225.632,"end":248.171,"text":"所以次長也同意我想生產就一定產生廢料嘛那廢料儲存現在目前是一個很複雜的問題我同意好那接下來想要討論說那之所以有人要擁核核電廠延役當然他們理由是說有助穩定電價可是這種觀點我覺得他就忽略了延役過程中他為了確保他的機組能"},{"start":249.292,"end":249.592,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":277.162,"end":298.698,"text":"所以簡言之基組的更新跟安全的維護兩者的基金的投入應該會相當的可觀這個不能單看說電價相對低的這個觀點來切入而已所以關於基組的更新跟維護的成本這個部分核安會跟經濟部是否有審慎的這個評估過那確切會是大約什麼樣的數字"},{"start":306.032,"end":308.594,"text":"我可不可以請我們台電這邊來回應一下這部分牽扯到設備的更新還有安全的這一塊所以目前來講這個數字跟委員講的沒有錯的確是龐大所以一個非常龐大的數字所以還沒有辦法估出這麼龐大的數字會大約多少目前來講是還沒有估出來"},{"start":331.772,"end":349.5,"text":"我想沒有人希望核災發生所以我現在想就叫主委就是說在核子事故緊急應變計畫的疏散規劃裡頭我們是以8公里內在籍人數3萬人為考量而不是考量非在籍實居的這種工作人口十幾萬人"},{"start":350.62,"end":377.657,"text":"那這個是否會低估他的疏散的時間以及救護跟安置的需求我們用核三廠核村的恆春的那個聯外道路只有台26線來看遇到春假或寒暑假或大型的活動他這近幾年都幾乎有差不多超過26萬人出入墾丁的這種台灣記如果遇到這樣的情形你會有更進一步或更"},{"start":378.857,"end":406.537,"text":"規劃更細緻的這個所謂的應變緊急的應變計畫嗎?主委這個緊急應變計畫是在電廠8公里之內我們叫EPZROM就是緊急應變的區域那當然對於流動的人口我們是沒有辦法去及時來掌握因為特別是觀光客就像委員提到的所以這一部分當然"},{"start":407.56,"end":433.205,"text":"有不確定性所以我覺得你們在規劃中其實還要再加入這些對 因為你說像核三廠所在立的這個恆春它的這個觀光客的數量確實是龐大的特別遇到一些特別的這個假日所以如果說在特別的假日然後發生了任何的核災的問題那你們這個應變計畫就要更周延一點"},{"start":434.285,"end":447.114,"text":"另外我想依據核三廠這個地震危害跟篩選報告核三廠東側緊鄰核村的這個活動的斷層那西側外海又有所謂的逆沖斷層那場內的這個核島區底下的這個淺層地質又發現有簡列跟被寫的地層變形那地表的加速度可達1.384G"},{"start":459.922,"end":460.102,"text":"林宜瑾"},{"start":479.989,"end":480.029,"text":"主委﹗"},{"start":497.935,"end":518.587,"text":"這個部分其實我們最近做那個Shake Level 3那麼報告正在台電那麼我們會來檢視那後續如果有必要會再做進一步的補強但是在更低的這個加速度的時候其實我們會有安全自動"},{"start":519.628,"end":519.848,"text":"謝謝主委 謝謝次長 謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:50:27.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:50:32.515000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請核安會陳主委，還有經濟部林次長。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T10:50:32.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:50:33.636000+08:00","text":"好，請主委跟次長，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T10:50:37.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:50:37.915000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長全能","start":"2024-05-29T10:50:38.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:50:39.156000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:50:39.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:50:39.876000+08:00","text":"大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:50:40.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:50:55.802000+08:00","text":"我想依照環境基本法第二十三條的精神，政府應訂定計畫，逐步達成非核家園的目標，除了本於環境保護的精神，我們本來就應該要逐步降低對核能發電的使用，最後核電歸零。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:50:57.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:51:00.523000+08:00","text":"而面對臺灣現在核電廠已經實質除役或即將除役的情形，本席認為倡議現有核電廠延役繼續發電，我覺得不但短視近利，而且他們忽略各種龐大且深不可測的成本。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:51:00.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:51:00.563000+08:00","text":"怎麼說？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:51:00.563000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:51:37.398000+08:00","text":"有不少支持臺灣現在不應該放棄核電的人士，常常用國際的標準說核電是乾淨的能源，作為論述的資料，可是本席認為核能發電完全無法符合綠電的概念，所以我認為核電不等於綠電。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:51:37.398000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:52:14.233000+08:00","text":"在核廢料沒有獲得妥善處置的前提之下，核電就是不正義的能源，就是不永續的能源，即便核能發電屬於相對低碳排，可是我們要興建核能廢料處置設施，也會產生很大的碳排，而且最重要的是核廢污染對後代的負面影響甚大。","quality":0.204},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:52:14.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:52:22.460000+08:00","text":"用盡所有手段，要求重啟核電，就會製造更多的核廢料、更多的不正義。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:52:22.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:52:27.605000+08:00","text":"我想，要擁核卻又忽視核廢料在貯存上有許多的難處，像是選址的困難，像是現有的燃料池滿載，以及長期貯放場規劃的時程還很長等等問題。","quality":0.362},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:52:28.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:52:59.913000+08:00","text":"這就好比你生了一個孩子，你只想玩他，可是又不想生養他，不管也不處理他的吃喝拉撒等等，這很顯然的，就是忽視核廢料處置的人很不負責任的概念。","quality":0.387},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:53:01.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:53:13.405000+08:00","text":"如果除役的進程確定，核廢料的數量就會固定不變，我們或許就可以比較具體的來規劃核廢料處置設置的計畫。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:53:13.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:53:30.638000+08:00","text":"可是一旦核電廠延役，核廢料就會隨之增加，不僅增加核廢料處置計畫的不確定性，也降低人民對政府處置核廢料的信心，當然也恐怕會增加跟社會溝通的困難。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:53:30.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:53:40.661000+08:00","text":"核安會的業務包含核廢料的監管，延役顯然會導致核廢料問題，更欠缺社會共識，並且更難解決。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:53:41.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:53:49.325000+08:00","text":"要請教主委跟次長，你們是否同意核電廠延役確實將造成更難解決的核廢料問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T10:53:53.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:54:00.472000+08:00","text":"誠如委員講的，延役當然會使核廢料逐漸增加，會增加將來處理的複雜跟難度。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:54:05.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:54:06.473000+08:00","text":"是，所以次長也同意？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林次長全能","start":"2024-05-29T10:54:06.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:54:12.138000+08:00","text":"我想生產就一定產生廢料，廢料的貯存目前是一個很複雜的問題，我同意。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:54:12.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:54:28.151000+08:00","text":"好，接下來想要討論，之所以有人要擁核，讓核電廠延役，他們的理由是有助穩定電價，可是這種觀點，我覺得他就忽略了延役過程中為了確保機組的運作安全跟效率，需要進行機組更新的成本問題，這個都沒有想過。","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:54:28.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:54:43.057000+08:00","text":"除了機組更新的成本，核安的措施也是成本之一。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:54:43.057000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:54:57.963000+08:00","text":"尤其在臺灣是被複合式災害威脅的島嶼，我們有颱風，我們有地震這種天災，所以安全性的問題真的不容忽視。","quality":0.044},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:54:57.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:55:10.612000+08:00","text":"簡言之，機組的更新跟安全的維護兩者資金的投入，應該會相當的可觀，不能單看電價相對低的觀點來切入而已。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:55:11.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:55:18.678000+08:00","text":"關於機組更新跟維護成本這個部分，核安會跟經濟部是否有審慎的評估過，確切大約會是什麼樣的數字？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林次長全能","start":"2024-05-29T10:55:26.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:55:26.392000+08:00","text":"委員，我是不是可以請台電來回應？好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"許副總理理永輝","start":"2024-05-29T10:55:26.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:55:27.493000+08:00","text":"這部分牽涉到設備的更新還有安全這一塊，所以目前這個數字，委員講的沒有錯，的確是龐大。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:55:27.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:55:28.193000+08:00","text":"是一個非常龐大的數字，所以也還沒有辦法估出這麼龐大的數字大約會是多少？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"許副總理理永輝","start":"2024-05-29T10:55:28.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:55:28.594000+08:00","text":"是，目前來講還沒有估出來。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:55:28.594000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:55:51.772000+08:00","text":"好，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:55:51.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:56:16.043000+08:00","text":"我想沒有人希望核災發生，我現在想就教主委，在核子事故緊急應變計畫的疏散規劃裡，我們是以8公里內在籍人數3萬人為考量，而不是考量非在籍實居的工作人口十幾萬人，這是否會低估疏散的時間以及救護跟安置的需求？","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:56:17.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:56:33.854000+08:00","text":"以恆春核三廠聯外道路的台26線來看，遇到春假、寒暑假或大型活動，最近幾年幾乎都有差不多超過26萬人出入墾丁的臺灣祭。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:56:34.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:56:42.020000+08:00","text":"遇到這樣的情形，主委你會有更進一步或規劃更細緻的緊急應變計畫嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T10:56:46.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:56:54.689000+08:00","text":"緊急應變計畫是在電廠8公里之內，我們叫EPZ Zone，就是緊急應變區域。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T10:56:56.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:57:05.277000+08:00","text":"對於流動的人口，我們沒有辦法即時掌握，特別是觀光客，就像委員提到的。對。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T10:57:05.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:57:08.520000+08:00","text":"這一部分當然有不確定性。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:57:09.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:57:33.205000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得你們在規劃中其實還要再加入這些，因為像核三廠所在地恆春，觀光客的數量確實是龐大的，特別遇到一些假日，如果在特別的假日發生任何的核災問題，你們這個應變計畫就要更週延一點。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:57:34.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:57:47.094000+08:00","text":"另外，依據核三廠地震危害與篩選報告，核三廠東側緊鄰恆春活動斷層，西側外海又有所謂的逆衝斷層，廠內核島區底下的淺層地質又發現剪裂與背斜等地層變形，地表的加速度可達1.384G。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:57:47.094000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:57:55.317750+08:00","text":"我想不僅是三座核電廠最高，也超過核三廠可以安全停機的耐震程度0.72G。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:57:55.317750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:58:03.541500+08:00","text":"所以本席認為當初就已經缺乏詳細資料來評估而不當選址，陸續研究出來這些地質的事證，更是不支持核電廠繼續在這裡運作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:58:03.541500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:58:11.765250+08:00","text":"有這樣的潛在風險，在燃料棒都還在廠內貯存的情況之下，還需要哪些廠區的安全補強措施？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:58:11.765250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:58:19.989000+08:00","text":"補強措施需要多久的時間？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:58:19.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:58:20.009000+08:00","text":"請問主委。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T10:58:37.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:58:51.303000+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，其實我們最近做SSHAC Level 3，報告正在台電，我們會來檢視，後續如果有必要，會再做進一步補強。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T10:58:51.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:58:58.587000+08:00","text":"但是在更低的加速度時，其實我們有一個安全自動緊急關閉的裝置。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:58:58.587000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:58:59.587000+08:00","text":"好，最後本席要重申立場，我堅決反對老舊核電廠延役，也反對任何為延役或重啟開後門的修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:58:59.587000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:59:00.587000+08:00","text":"我想核能涉及專業的評估，絕非政治的操作，不要讓今天的決定成為明天的困境，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員宜瑾","start":"2024-05-29T10:58:59.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T10:58:59.828000+08:00","text":"謝謝主委，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T10:59:00.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:59:01.470857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T10:59:01.770857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:59:04.913714+08:00","text":"好，我們就先休息5分鐘。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T10:59:05.213714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:59:06.356571+08:00","text":"休息（10時59分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T10:59:06.656571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:59:08.370857+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時4分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T10:59:08.670857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:59:10.670857+08:00","text":"好，我們繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T10:59:10.970857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T10:59:13.542286+08:00","text":"接下來請張雅琳委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}