{"error":false,"id":["153241"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153241,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153241","日期":"2024-05-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-22-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-05-29T11:13:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-05-29T11:23:45+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2c978e04ca5e1331bb31a635723a0f67d0e137800dc086eaa3ee6acdf2d5e9875133c2e51459f0c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:13:20 - 11:23:45","會議時間":"2024-05-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月27日及29日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時13分）謝謝召委，有請陳主委跟林次長一起。"],["主席：好，主委跟次長。"],["范委員雲：有些問題可能你們可以自己看誰可以回答，謝謝兩位。可不可以請問一下，近五年核能占比跟再生能源的發電量占比，現在的情況如何？預計五年後的狀況如何？這個是不是請經濟部林次長回答？"],["林次長全能：跟委員報告，我們去年核能的發電占比大概是6.3%，再生能源是9.5%，預估今年再生能源應該可以到13%左右。"],["范委員雲：所以已經超過核能的占比嘛！"],["林次長全能：是，是。"],["范委員雲：那五年後你們的預估是什麼？"],["林次長全能：五年後，我們希望2030年時，再生能源可以達到30%左右。"],["范委員雲：然後核能的占比呢？"],["林次長全能：核能部分大概就是除役了，所以核能就是零。"],["范委員雲：那會有缺電的問題嗎？今天早上預設好像我們要發展AI就會缺電，這個你們沒有評估過嗎？剛剛那個評估裡面有沒有評估到AI部分？"],["林次長全能：我很具體明確地回答，事實上，對於未來的用電需求，我們有長達五到十年的推估，根據這個推估，我們把所有供電能量都準備好，剛剛提到核能三廠一號機或二號機會除役，這早在三、四年前我們就在推估這樣的情形，所以已經把要準備的機組都準備好了，而會上來的機組，包括燃氣機組，包括再生能源、太陽光電跟離岸風電，這些都會上來。"],["范委員雲：你們其實都評估在裡面了嘛！"],["林次長全能：是，是。"],["范委員雲：再來我應該要請問核安會陳主委，剛剛我們也談到新型核能，就我所看到的研究，目前還是有很大的技術瓶頸，要到2050年才有可能商轉，是這樣子嗎？你同意這個說法嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：呃，同意。"],["范委員雲：同意，所以2050年離現在還多久？"],["陳主任委員東陽：大概27年吧。"],["范委員雲：還有27年嘛，如果技術瓶頸不突破的話，2050年還會商轉嗎？就算會商轉，發電成本是個大問題，我看到的研究報告，是PNAS（美國國家科學院院刊），由美國前核能管制委員會主委參與的研究團隊報告，報告說這個比傳統核電廠還可能產生高達30倍的核廢料，發電成本比再生能源高出3至5倍。就算安全問題有比較好，但核廢料是30倍，是再生能源成本的3到5倍，主委有看過這個報告嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，我有看過。"],["范委員雲：是不是這樣子？"],["陳主任委員東陽：欸，是的。主要是這樣，那個Prototype，新型的原型開發需要投入更多的經費，所以……"],["范委員雲：是，開發這個要投入更多的經費？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，它有研發性質，我在報告裡也有說明，所以即便是那個NuScale公司，現在也因為不符合商業利益而終止。"],["范委員雲：是，不符合商業利益。我看到的這個報告中提到發電成本的估計，這是能源公司的估計，SMR的成本是每兆瓦105到135美元，風力發電的成本是每兆瓦25到32美元，然後太陽能光電的成本是每兆瓦32到37美元，這樣沒錯吧？所以是不是請主委要告訴大家，至少在2050年前，在目前技術不突破的情況下，核廢料是30倍，發電成本比再生能源高3到5倍。我想這是專業問題，剛剛講的都是尊重專業，專業的問題專業給答案，我們才能做整體的安全評估。當然，除了安全評估之外，我想很多人也講過很多次，應該是三個前提，第一個最基本的前提，就是這個討論要尊重專業，不是我們非專業的人做的評估，是專業的評估。另外，有關核安問題，剛剛有很多人講到地震的部分，我也想再追問一下，如果立法院真的、也許、萬一用多數表決要延役，是不是核安的部分要重新評估？過去的報告有把地震帶這些問題都評估進去嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核安是一定要審慎評估。"],["范委員雲：是不是要重做環境影響評估？過去有做環境影響評估嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：過去興建的時候沒有，那時候還沒有。"],["范委員雲：對，因為當時還沒有環境影響評估相關法規。"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["范委員雲：好，那這個我們知道。其實地震的部分我知道監院之前有做過報告，但台電一直沒有釋出，其實地震的風險是很高的。還有一個也是剛剛好幾位委員講到的，就是目前臺灣的核廢料涉及到一個很大的問題，我想核安會主委也許更專業，請問，有多少國家有走到最終處置場？"],["陳主任委員東陽：目前我理解只有芬蘭現在在試營運，但是還沒有真正……連美國都沒有。"],["范委員雲：試營運？那它的成本有算到裡面嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有。"],["范委員雲：沒有，成本我們也不知道，以芬蘭的條件，你覺得臺灣找得到低階跟高階的最終處置場嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：呃，這個有點困難，可以請台電說明。"],["范委員雲：有點困難，根據法規，低階部分是不是要在地公投？"],["林次長全能：是，沒有錯，低階的最終處置場是要公投。"],["范委員雲：我剛剛聽到你們的討論，曾經評估過花蓮跟金門，你們評估在地公投會通過嗎？"],["林次長全能：低階不是，低階不是。"],["范委員雲：低階不是，那低階曾經評估過哪裡？"],["胡司長文中：低階曾經在經濟部有提出兩個候選場址，就是臺東跟金門……"],["范委員雲：臺東跟金門，那你們評估……"],["胡司長文中：到目前為止，因為地方政府沒有辦理公投。"],["范委員雲：地方政府不願意辦公投……"],["胡司長文中：對，沒有辦理公投。"],["范委員雲：沒有人要辦公投，那你們評估，就算他們辦公投，公投會同意、會通過嗎？"],["胡司長文中：公投會不會過，就是要看民意。"],["范委員雲：地方政府也不願意辦公投，而高階的部分，目前以我的瞭解，連法規都沒有，如果有法規，在地公投也是基本的民主尊重吧？"],["許副總經理永輝：對，的確目前來講是沒有法規依據。"],["范委員雲：你們覺得找得到最終處置場，就像芬蘭現在正在實驗跟努力中的嗎？芬蘭我們都知道，他們的地方非常大，北邊就是很大的森林綠地。"],["許副總經理永輝：我們在2017年時的確已經確定臺灣是有所謂的花崗岩的母岩可以適合做最終處置。"],["范委員雲：請問是在哪個縣市？"],["許副總經理永輝：2017年的時候，我們確定的是曾經有在金門跟花蓮。"],["范委員雲：金門跟花蓮，高階……"],["許副總經理永輝：但是這部分實際上當時……"],["范委員雲：那你們有請問過金門民選立委跟花蓮民選立委的意見嗎？"],["許副總經理永輝：當時我們在這部分的社會溝通和地方政府的溝通，的確遇到困難。"],["范委員雲：金門縣政府、花蓮縣政府會支持嗎？"],["許副總經理永輝：目前來講是不會。"],["范委員雲：目前是不會，所以我們討論這個問題，剛剛主委和經濟部次長為什麼沒有把這些條件告訴大家？好像這都是不需要處理的問題。以我看到的資料，這個所謂最終處置場，連法國、日本、英國、俄羅斯、中國都還在尋求選址；我們都知道中國不是個民主國家，所以我想這是一個蠻大的問題，這雖然不是安全問題，但也是一個民主國家基本的倫理問題，垃圾場都沒有人想要，有鄰避問題，更何況是連低階都還在對不起原住民跟蘭嶼人，找不到最終處置場，更何況高階。所以請我們的官員講清楚，歐盟的分類法是有條件納入核能作為氣候減緩跟調適的項目，所謂乾淨能源跟綠色能源是「Do No Significant Harm」，不要有重大傷害，臺灣現階段的核電廠根本不符合乾淨或綠色能源，因為我們沒有辦法處理中等、低跟極低放射性廢棄物的最終處置設施，更何況沒有設施就不會有具體且具細節步驟的計畫，所以我們並沒有那個不造成重大傷害的條件，就算你們研議了，這兩個問題不解決，也不是企業可以用的綠色能源跟乾淨能源。核安會主委，同不同意我講的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：同意。"],["范委員雲：同意，那可不可以說清楚、說大聲一點？"],["陳主任委員東陽：同意。"],["范委員雲：你們不說清楚，還要我們委員自己做研究來幫你們說清楚，這不大對吧！主委，可不可以請你告訴我們國安會主委，好嗎？橫向溝通一下，他跟你比起來，他是核能專家嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：國安會主委……"],["范委員雲：國安會主委有上新聞，剛剛不是有……"],["陳主任委員東陽：是國發會。"],["范委員雲：國發會，對不起，講錯了，國發會主委，一時不太開心，所以國發會主委不是能源專家吧？"],["陳主任委員東陽：應該不是。"],["范委員雲：不是，那你是專業的，是不是橫向跟他講一下，不要誤解歐盟的相關分類，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員。","請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-14","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","葉元之","洪申翰","陳秀寳","萬美玲","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","張雅琳","范雲","羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","陳培瑜","張智倫","林倩綺","羅智強","吳春城","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲"],"page_start":343,"meetingDate":["2024-05-29"],"gazette_id":"1135201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就「展望全球核能發電趨勢，我國核電廠\n延役推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源之規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":0.03096875,"end":0.70596875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.70596875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":6.072218750000001,"end":16.09596875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.168468750000002,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.636593750000003,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":16.80471875,"end":17.19284375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":17.41221875,"end":35.53596875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":37.611593750000004,"end":50.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":50.70659375,"end":53.25471875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":53.13659375,"end":54.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":53.541593750000004,"end":55.80284375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":55.17846875,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":61.35471875,"end":61.81034375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":61.81034375,"end":67.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":62.586593750000006,"end":63.31221875000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":64.93221875,"end":64.96596875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":66.48471875,"end":73.04909375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":73.36971875,"end":77.74034375000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":76.37346875,"end":76.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":76.91346875,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":79.44471875,"end":79.59659375000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":106.09034375,"end":130.37346875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":107.96346875,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.47471875000002,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":131.74034375000002,"end":134.52471875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.94221875,"end":137.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":137.49471875,"end":170.16471875000002,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.51159375,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":170.63721875000002,"end":180.76221875000002,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.18409375000002,"end":182.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":182.36534375000002,"end":183.39471875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.47409375,"end":208.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.74096875,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":210.02346875,"end":233.95221875000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":234.62721875000003,"end":299.96721875000003,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.18221875,"end":302.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":303.05534375,"end":307.03784375000004,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.08909375,"end":304.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.34159375,"end":310.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":309.28221875,"end":343.55534375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.61846875000003,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"范委員雲","start":346.27221875000004,"end":346.82909375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name"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not significant harm"},{"start":542.932,"end":566.849,"text":"沒有不要有傷害有意義的傷害台灣現階段的核電廠根本不符合乾淨或綠色能源因為我們沒有辦法處理中等低跟極低放射性廢棄物的最終處置設施那更何況沒有設施就不會有具體且具細節步驟的計畫所以我們並沒有那個不造成重大傷害的條件"},{"start":568.71,"end":582.276,"text":"所以就算你們研議了這兩個問題不解決也不是企業可以用的綠色能源跟乾淨能源這個主委同不同意我講的何安慧主委同意同意那可不可以說清楚說大聲一點"},{"start":583.556,"end":597.821,"text":"同意你們不說清楚是我們這個委員自己來做研究幫你說清楚不大對吧那主委可不可以請你告訴我們國安會主委好嗎橫向溝通一下他跟你比起來他是核能專家嗎"},{"start":599.557,"end":604.821,"text":"國安會主委國安會主委有上新聞國發會主委一時不太開心國發會主委不是能源專家吧應該不是不是 那您是專業的是不是橫向跟他講一下不要誤解了歐盟的這個相關的分類好嗎好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:13:20+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:13:26.373000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請陳主委跟林次長一起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T11:13:26.373000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:13:32.746000+08:00","text":"好，主委跟次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:13:32.746000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:13:39.119000+08:00","text":"有些問題可能你們可以自己看誰可以回答，謝謝兩位。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:13:39.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:13:47.866000+08:00","text":"可不可以請問一下，近五年核能占比跟再生能源的發電量占比，現在的情況如何？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:13:47.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:13:48.346000+08:00","text":"預計五年後的狀況如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:13:48.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:13:49.187000+08:00","text":"這個是不是請經濟部林次長回答？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林次長全能","start":"2024-05-29T11:13:57.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:14:09.734000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們去年核能的發電占比大概是6.3%，再生能源是9.5%，預估今年再生能源應該可以到13%左右。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:14:10.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:14:13.516000+08:00","text":"所以已經超過核能的占比嘛！是，是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:14:13.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:14:15.217000+08:00","text":"那五年後你們的預估是什麼？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林次長全能","start":"2024-05-29T11:14:15.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:14:19.119000+08:00","text":"五年後，我們希望2030年時，再生能源可以達到30%左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:14:21.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:14:22.841000+08:00","text":"然後核能的占比呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林次長全能","start":"2024-05-29T11:14:23.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:14:26.263000+08:00","text":"核能部分大概就是除役了，所以核能就是零。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:14:26.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:14:28.245000+08:00","text":"那會有缺電的問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:14:28.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:14:35.550000+08:00","text":"今天早上預設好像我們要發展AI就會缺電，這個你們沒有評估過嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:14:35.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:14:37.111000+08:00","text":"剛剛那個評估裡面有沒有評估到AI部分？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林次長全能","start":"2024-05-29T11:14:38.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:15:06.050000+08:00","text":"我很具體明確地回答，事實上，對於未來的用電需求，我們有長達五到十年的推估，根據這個推估，我們把所有供電能量都準備好，剛剛提到核能三廠一號機或二號機會除役，這早在三、四年前我們就在推估這樣的情形，所以已經把要準備的機組都準備好了，而會上來的機組，包括燃氣機組，包括再生能源、太陽光電跟離岸風電，這些都會上來。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:15:06.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:15:08.551000+08:00","text":"你們其實都評估在裡面了嘛！是，是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:15:10.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:15:29.066000+08:00","text":"再來我應該要請問核安會陳主委，剛剛我們也談到新型核能，就我所看到的研究，目前還是有很大的技術瓶頸，要到2050年才有可能商轉，是這樣子嗎？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:15:29.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:15:31.067000+08:00","text":"你同意這個說法嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:15:31.067000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:15:32.067000+08:00","text":"呃，同意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:15:31.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:15:32.708000+08:00","text":"同意，所以2050年離現在還多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:15:32.708000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:15:37.651000+08:00","text":"大概27年吧。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:15:37.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:15:42.956000+08:00","text":"還有27年嘛，如果技術瓶頸不突破的話，2050年還會商轉嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:15:43.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:16:09.899000+08:00","text":"就算會商轉，發電成本是個大問題，我看到的研究報告，是PNAS（美國國家科學院院刊），由美國前核能管制委員會主委參與的研究團隊報告，報告說這個比傳統核電廠還可能產生高達30倍的核廢料，發電成本比再生能源高出3至5倍。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:16:10.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:16:19.932000+08:00","text":"就算安全問題有比較好，但核廢料是30倍，是再生能源成本的3到5倍，主委有看過這個報告嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:16:21.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:16:22.321000+08:00","text":"是的，我有看過。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:16:22.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:16:23.101000+08:00","text":"是不是這樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:16:25.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:16:25.302000+08:00","text":"欸，是的。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:16:25.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:16:34.326000+08:00","text":"主要是這樣，那個Prototype，新型的原型開發需要投入更多的經費，所以……","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:16:34.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:16:37.348000+08:00","text":"是，開發這個要投入更多的經費？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:16:37.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:16:47.853000+08:00","text":"對，它有研發性質，我在報告裡也有說明，所以即便是那個NuScale公司，現在也因為不符合商業利益而終止。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:16:48.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:16:50.547000+08:00","text":"是，不符合商業利益。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:16:52.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:17:13.145000+08:00","text":"我看到的這個報告中提到發電成本的估計，這是能源公司的估計，SMR的成本是每兆瓦105到135美元，風力發電的成本是每兆瓦25到32美元，然後太陽能光電的成本是每兆瓦32到37美元，這樣沒錯吧？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:17:14.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:17:28.659000+08:00","text":"所以是不是請主委要告訴大家，至少在2050年前，在目前技術不突破的情況下，核廢料是30倍，發電成本比再生能源高3到5倍。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:17:29.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:17:32.821000+08:00","text":"我想這是專業問題，剛剛講的都是尊重專業，專業的問題專業給答案，我們才能做整體的安全評估。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:17:41.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:17:52.838000+08:00","text":"當然，除了安全評估之外，我想很多人也講過很多次，應該是三個前提，第一個最基本的前提，就是這個討論要尊重專業，不是我們非專業的人做的評估，是專業的評估。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:17:52.838000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:17:59.946000+08:00","text":"另外，有關核安問題，剛剛有很多人講到地震的部分，我也想再追問一下，如果立法院真的、也許、萬一用多數表決要延役，是不是核安的部分要重新評估？","quality":0.197},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:17:59.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:18:00.806000+08:00","text":"過去的報告有把地震帶這些問題都評估進去嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:18:00.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:18:03.720714+08:00","text":"核安是一定要審慎評估。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:18:03.720714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:18:06.635429+08:00","text":"是不是要重做環境影響評估？","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:18:06.635429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:18:09.550143+08:00","text":"過去有做環境影響評估嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:18:09.550143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:18:12.464857+08:00","text":"過去興建的時候沒有，那時候還沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:18:12.464857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:18:15.379571+08:00","text":"對，因為當時還沒有環境影響評估相關法規。是的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:18:15.379571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:18:18.294286+08:00","text":"好，那這個我們知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:18:18.294286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:18:21.209000+08:00","text":"其實地震的部分我知道監院之前有做過報告，但台電一直沒有釋出，其實地震的風險是很高的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:18:21.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:02.622000+08:00","text":"還有一個也是剛剛好幾位委員講到的，就是目前臺灣的核廢料涉及到一個很大的問題，我想核安會主委也許更專業，請問，有多少國家有走到最終處置場？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:04.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:08.619000+08:00","text":"目前我理解只有芬蘭現在在試營運，但是還沒有真正……連美國都沒有。","quality":0.464},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:10.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:10.421000+08:00","text":"試營運？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:10.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:13.984000+08:00","text":"那它的成本有算到裡面嗎？沒有。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:15.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:20.970000+08:00","text":"沒有，成本我們也不知道，以芬蘭的條件，你覺得臺灣找得到低階跟高階的最終處置場嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:20.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:21.070000+08:00","text":"呃，這個有點困難，可以請台電說明。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:21.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:21.630000+08:00","text":"有點困難，根據法規，低階部分是不是要在地公投？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林次長全能","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:21.630000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:31.089000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯，低階的最終處置場是要公投。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:31.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:32.209000+08:00","text":"我剛剛聽到你們的討論，曾經評估過花蓮跟金門，你們評估在地公投會通過嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長全能","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:32.209000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:33.209000+08:00","text":"低階不是，低階不是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:32.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:33.750000+08:00","text":"低階不是，那低階曾經評估過哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡司長文中","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:33.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:35.770000+08:00","text":"低階曾經在經濟部有提出兩個候選場址，就是臺東跟金門……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:56.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:19:57.635000+08:00","text":"臺東跟金門，那你們評估……","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡司長文中","start":"2024-05-29T11:19:58.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:00.876000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，因為地方政府沒有辦理公投。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:00.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:02.437000+08:00","text":"地方政府不願意辦公投……","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡司長文中","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:02.437000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:03.437000+08:00","text":"對，沒有辦理公投。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:03.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:08.639000+08:00","text":"沒有人要辦公投，那你們評估，就算他們辦公投，公投會同意、會通過嗎？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"胡司長文中","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:08.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:11.160000+08:00","text":"公投會不會過，就是要看民意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:12.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:23.605000+08:00","text":"地方政府也不願意辦公投，而高階的部分，目前以我的瞭解，連法規都沒有，如果有法規，在地公投也是基本的民主尊重吧？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"許副總經理永輝","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:25.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:27.250000+08:00","text":"對，的確目前來講是沒有法規依據。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:27.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:35.514000+08:00","text":"你們覺得找得到最終處置場，就像芬蘭現在正在實驗跟努力中的嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:35.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:40.776000+08:00","text":"芬蘭我們都知道，他們的地方非常大，北邊就是很大的森林綠地。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"許副總經理永輝","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:41.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:48.818000+08:00","text":"我們在2017年時的確已經確定臺灣是有所謂的花崗岩的母岩可以適合做最終處置。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:49.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:50.078000+08:00","text":"請問是在哪個縣市？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許副總經理永輝","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:51.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:56.879000+08:00","text":"2017年的時候，我們確定的是曾經有在金門跟花蓮。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:56.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:20:58.700000+08:00","text":"金門跟花蓮，高階……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許副總經理永輝","start":"2024-05-29T11:20:58.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:21:00.140000+08:00","text":"但是這部分實際上當時……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:21:00.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:21:04.681000+08:00","text":"那你們有請問過金門民選立委跟花蓮民選立委的意見嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許副總經理永輝","start":"2024-05-29T11:21:05.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:21:10.182000+08:00","text":"當時我們在這部分的社會溝通和地方政府的溝通，的確遇到困難。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:21:10.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:21:14.864000+08:00","text":"金門縣政府、花蓮縣政府會支持嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許副總經理永輝","start":"2024-05-29T11:21:14.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:21:15.944000+08:00","text":"目前來講是不會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:21:15.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:21:23.287000+08:00","text":"目前是不會，所以我們討論這個問題，剛剛主委和經濟部次長為什麼沒有把這些條件告訴大家？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:21:25.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:21:27.089000+08:00","text":"好像這都是不需要處理的問題。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:21:27.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:22:05.750000+08:00","text":"以我看到的資料，這個所謂最終處置場，連法國、日本、英國、俄羅斯、中國都還在尋求選址；我們都知道中國不是個民主國家，所以我想這是一個蠻大的問題，這雖然不是安全問題，但也是一個民主國家基本的倫理問題，垃圾場都沒有人想要，有鄰避問題，更何況是連低階都還在對不起原住民跟蘭嶼人，找不到最終處置場，更何況高階。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:22:08.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:22:55.473000+08:00","text":"所以請我們的官員講清楚，歐盟的分類法是有條件納入核能作為氣候減緩跟調適的項目，所謂乾淨能源跟綠色能源是「Do No Significant Harm」，不要有重大傷害，臺灣現階段的核電廠根本不符合乾淨或綠色能源，因為我們沒有辦法處理中等、低跟極低放射性廢棄物的最終處置設施，更何況沒有設施就不會有具體且具細節步驟的計畫，所以我們並沒有那個不造成重大傷害的條件，就算你們研議了，這兩個問題不解決，也不是企業可以用的綠色能源跟乾淨能源。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:22:56.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:22:59.054000+08:00","text":"核安會主委，同不同意我講的？同意。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:22:59.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:03.736000+08:00","text":"同意，那可不可以說清楚、說大聲一點？同意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:04.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:10.538000+08:00","text":"你們不說清楚，還要我們委員自己做研究來幫你們說清楚，這不大對吧！","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:12.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:15.220000+08:00","text":"主委，可不可以請你告訴我們國安會主委，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:15.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:17.821000+08:00","text":"橫向溝通一下，他跟你比起來，他是核能專家嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:19.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:20.238000+08:00","text":"國安會主委……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:20.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:21.579000+08:00","text":"國安會主委有上新聞，剛剛不是有……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:21.579000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:22.579000+08:00","text":"是國發會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:21.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:22.199000+08:00","text":"國發會，對不起，講錯了，國發會主委，一時不太開心，所以國發會主委不是能源專家吧？","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:22.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:22.279000+08:00","text":"應該不是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:22.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:24.801000+08:00","text":"不是，那你是專業的，是不是橫向跟他講一下，不要誤解歐盟的相關分類，好嗎？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳主任委員東陽","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:24.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:24.821000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:25.321000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:26.321000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:26.621000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:27.621000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:27.921000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:33.063857+08:00","text":"接下來王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-05-29T11:23:33.363857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-05-29T11:23:35.078143+08:00","text":"請羅廷瑋委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}