{"error":false,"id":["153974"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":153974,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153974","日期":"2024-06-13","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,15],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-13T11:32:16+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-13T11:40:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:08","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0318639dfd7f20f8f8ff7e0bc1ebc50214d862afa46997d4e00d8e0402cabe7a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:32:16 - 11:40:24","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":747,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時32分）謝謝主席。主席，我們請銓敘部張次長。"],["主席：麻煩張次長。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，有關今天要審查的警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案，我看到相關部門的整個報告都表示，根據公務人員的退撫法，現在不宜做任何的調整。"],["張次長秋元：是，這是我們的建議。"],["林委員思銘：你們現在的報告的意見是這樣，但是根據我的瞭解，以今年新退的公務人員為例，若是以35年的年資，平均590個俸點，以及最後在職的15年的平均薪資，以這三個條件去計算的話，那麼最後可以拿到的平均月退休金為多少？次長，你知道嗎？大概多少錢？"],["張次長秋元：最高嗎？"],["林委員思銘：對，最高。你們平均多少？"],["張次長秋元：五萬三。"],["林委員思銘：五萬三嘛？"],["張次長秋元：對。"],["林委員思銘：這個數字是您認為足夠我們的退休公務人員生活嗎？五萬三，以現在的生活條件。"],["張次長秋元：生活條件每一個人的感受就是見仁見智啦。但是我們必須要以整體的財務去做處理。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我告訴你，現在以我們臺灣65歲以上的長者而言，退休後生活最重要的支出將會是一般的醫療跟長照的費用，根據衛福部的調查，65歲以上的老人平均每人每月的醫療費用是6,500元，是29歲以下族群的6.4倍。另外，依照我們民間機構的調查也指出，65歲以上老人的長照需求費用平均每個月是3萬元，所以一個65歲的退休人員，他的醫療費用加上長照費用大概要3萬6,000元，那你剛才講說，平均退休金大概就是5萬3,000元，五萬三這是怎麼樣一個概念？剛才講的醫療跟長照費用就占據了大概70%左右。依主計總處家庭支出五等分位的調查數字，我們來做一個比較，若是戶長在65歲以上，以中間等分的第三等分來看，家庭每月支出高達6萬元，所以依照您剛才講的，以現在的所得替代率來講，一個月才五萬三，根本不足夠他退休後的生活的費用。所以我要先問次長，因為我看到今天內政部和人事總處都認為不宜做修正，次長，你認為在這種條件下，如何來保障我們的退警也好，消防人員也好，或者是海巡人員，他們在退休後生活有足夠的保障？"],["張次長秋元：這個退撫的部分，跟委員報告，就是在退撫法裡面其實是有相關的機制，就是它也不是一定就這樣持續下去都不變的，就是在第九十二條……"],["林委員思銘：次長，我講得很清楚，明顯看起來就是不足，然後現在我們要修法你又不贊成，那你到底要如何來保障他們的退休生活？"],["張次長秋元：這邊修法我們不贊成，最大的爭點是在同一個基金繳同樣的錢，然後我們現在要他們領不一樣的錢……"],["林委員思銘：那你告訴我，你要如何加強他們的保障？那你告訴我啊，你告訴所有退警啊。"],["張次長秋元：退休的部分在退撫法第六十七條有雙重的調整機制，一個就是在CPI正負5%的時候就會做調整，然後第二個就是每四年也一定要做檢討和調整。"],["林委員思銘：這個我們都瞭解，但是明顯的這些還是不足啦。"],["張次長秋元：我們在這方面會再去加強。"],["林委員思銘：我們今天也有提案，剛才羅智強委員也有提出一個臨時提案，針對這部分，請警政署對於未來要如何保障我們的警察人員退休的生活……"],["張次長秋元：大家一起來努力。"],["林委員思銘：跟我們銓敘部一起來溝通討論。"],["張次長秋元：這個大家一起來努力，今天的修法真的會有很多……"],["林委員思銘：一個月內要提出說明。我想今天你也說不清楚，請你跟警政署一樣，就是在三個月內提出未來如何保障退休的警察人員、消防人員及我們這次修法的海巡人員他們的退休生活，請說明如何保障，在三個月內提出書面說明。"],["張次長秋元：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。","另外，現在請海巡署張忠龍署長。署長，關於6月9日發生的陸男開快艇直衝淡水一事，海委會管碧玲主委坦承系統沒有失靈，但人出了問題。海巡也承認相關人員誤判，並表示會針對北部分署的分署長以及雷操手共10名人員，分別提出申誡跟記過處分，那我現在要跟你直球對決，請問署長，除了人員的懲處外，對於內部人員的訓練、管理及執勤時的落實，目前發現的問題，主要是哪些層面有疏漏？"],["張署長忠龍：特別跟委員報告，我們整個雷達偵蒐是在6海里就發現，然後我們逐級包括守望哨、安檢所都有監控，但是他們把這個目標當成一般進到我們的河道裡淡水區域的這些漁船，包括海釣船或民用的這些船，他們以常態性研判，這個船是在航向、航速不變的情況下直接進來的，所以在人員的研判上面，我們只能說，根據這個部分，他們當場研判是有疏漏的。"],["林委員思銘：署長，現在民間都流傳說，真的是我們的海防出了這麼大的紕漏，大家都在看笑話，所以說如何能夠準確落實執行我們的海防的措施？你剛才簡單就講說是因為人員的誤判，怎麼會出現誤判的這種情況呢？"],["張署長忠龍：跟委員報告，因為當地的現場有五、六十艘船，那個時間點剛好是他們要進港的時間點，根據同仁經驗的研判，他們判定這個船是要進到河道裡面的我們自己國籍的漁船，所以才會造成這樣的誤判，針對剛剛委員指導的部分，我們已經在加強整個勤務的教育跟訓練，還有雷操手的研判……"],["林委員思銘：署長，何時可以提出改善的措施？當初誤判的主因，你還是沒有講得很清楚，這個部分我也請你在一個禮拜之內提出相關的改善措施，以及說明這一次為什麼會誤判的原因，在一個禮拜之內向本席與內政委員會、司法及法制委員會的委員，提出相關的書面說明，好不好？"],["張署長忠龍：好。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。署長，我多嘴兩句啦，如果這樣子可以，那以後槍砲跟毒品都很好進來，我講這樣應該沒錯吧？那一艘小艇可以載的毒品應該滿多的，如果照這樣講，這個都沒事，這個都覺得是正常，誤判為國內的小漁船，那也不用什麼緝毒，也不用國境防守，然後就直接讓他這麼簡單就進來，我是不認同這個說辭啦。"],["張署長忠龍：報告委員，我們會加強我們的教育訓練。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝署長。","我們接下來請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":8.83971875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張署長忠龍","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":5.75159375,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張署長忠龍","start":5.76846875,"end":6.00471875,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張署長忠龍","start":8.83971875,"end":10.13909375,"speaker_score":0.953},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":13.294718750000001,"end":36.27846875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.996593750000002,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":36.78471875,"end":50.048468750000005,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":50.993468750000005,"end":56.56221875000001,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":57.659093750000004,"end":60.055343750000006,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.16909375,"end":61.422218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.92846875,"end":62.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":64.07159375,"end":68.91471875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.12221875,"end":65.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":69.97784375,"end":74.14596875000001,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":74.97284375000001,"end":75.02346875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.02346875,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":82.85346875,"end":84.91221875000001,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.91221875000001,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":84.96284375,"end":85.30034375000001,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":85.94159375000001,"end":92.64096875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":93.16409375,"end":97.02846875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":97.46721875,"end":106.22534375000001,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":106.42784375000001,"end":110.25846875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":110.66346875,"end":120.75471875000001,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":121.53096875000001,"end":122.02034375000001,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":122.74596875,"end":123.20159375,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":123.72471875000001,"end":165.74346875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":166.18221875,"end":167.27909375000002,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":167.51534375,"end":178.33221875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":178.99034375000002,"end":184.49159375000002,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":184.71096875,"end":192.92909375000002,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":193.89096875,"end":206.71596875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":208.47096875000003,"end":208.50471875000002,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.50471875000002,"end":210.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.78284375,"end":216.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.80721875,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.65034375000002,"end":224.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":221.70096875000002,"end":229.02471875,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.14784375000002,"end":224.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.26596875,"end":225.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.02471875,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":229.04159375,"end":229.21034375000002,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.21034375000002,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":229.96971875000003,"end":230.81346875000003,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.81346875000003,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":230.84721875000002,"end":232.11284375000002,"speaker_score":0.828},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.20471875,"end":243.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林委員思銘","start":238.84596875000003,"en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十五條條文的修正草案我想我看到的就是相關部門的整個報告都表示根據公務人員的退伏法現在不宜做任何的調整你們現在報告的意見是這樣但是我根據我的了解"},{"start":36.852,"end":59.825,"text":"以今年的新退的公務人員為例若是以三十五年的年資平均五百九十個縫點以及最後在職的十五年的平均薪資三個條件去計算的話那麼最後可以拿到的平均月退休金額多少?次長你知道嗎?大概多少錢?"},{"start":62.123,"end":68.506,"text":"最高嗎?公務人員對最高最高大概你們平均啦平均數5萬3嘛這個數字您認為足夠我們的退休公務人員生活嗎?"},{"start":74.997,"end":81.663,"text":"五條條文修正草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":93.574,"end":121.83,"text":"將會是一般的醫療跟我們的長照的費用。那麼根據衛福部的調查65歲以上的老人平均每人每月的醫療費用是6500元是29歲以下族群的6.4倍另外依照我們民間機構的調查也指出65歲以上老人的長照需求費用平均每個月是3萬元所以"},{"start":122.773,"end":125.035,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":146.974,"end":165.185,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次"},{"start":166.246,"end":192.494,"text":"條文要六萬塊,所以依照您剛才講的現在的所得替代率來講一個月才五萬三根本不足夠他的一個退休後的生活的一個費用所以這個我在這邊要先問先問那個我們次長好了因為我看到今天是內政部還有這個人事總處都認為說不宜做修正"},{"start":193.939,"end":206.474,"text":"所以次長你認為在這種條件下如何來保障我們相關這些退警也好消防人員也好或者我們海巡人員他們在退休後生活有足夠的保障"},{"start":209.05,"end":237.543,"text":"這個退伏的部分跟委員報告就是在退伏法裡面其實它有相關的機制就是它也不是一定就是這樣持續下去都不變的就是在92市長我想我講得很清楚明顯看起來就是不足然後你現在說我們修法你又不贊成那你到底要如何來保障他們的編修生活這跟修法不贊成最大的爭點是在同一個基金繳同樣的錢然後"},{"start":238.703,"end":249.369,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條條文及增訂附表三草案�"},{"start":266.235,"end":290.72,"text":"所以你到底如何保障我想我們今天也有提案剛才羅志強委員也有個臨題那這部分是請警政署對於未來要如何保障我們的警察人員退休的生活跟大家一起來努力跟我們權敘部一起來溝通討論這個大家一起來努力一個月內要提出說明那我也一樣期待說我想今天你也說不清楚請你也一樣跟警政署一樣"},{"start":291.62,"end":315.288,"text":"就是在一個月內就相關未來我們這個如何來三個月三個月三個月內提出如何來保障我們退休的警察人員消防人員以及我們這次修法的海巡人員他們的退休生活如何的跟來做保障三個月內提出書面說明謝謝委員好謝謝另外我們接下來請我們海巡署張忠榮那個署長那個署長"},{"start":321.238,"end":333.694,"text":"關於6月9號發生的鹿南開快艇直沖淡水一事海委會的管秉林主委坦承他講說系統沒有失靈但人出了問題"},{"start":335.919,"end":353.068,"text":"海巡也承認相關人員誤判並表示為針對北部分署的分署長以及雷超首共十名人員分陪提出申誡及記過處分。除了人員的懲處外對於內部人員的訓練管理以及執勤時的落實目前發現的問題主要的哪些層面有疏漏?"},{"start":365.647,"end":388.803,"text":"對,這邊特別跟委員報告,我們整個雷達徵收是在6號的時候發現然後我們足跡包括守望哨,包括安檢所都有監控但是他把這個目標當成一般進到我們河道裡面的這個淡水區域的這些漁船包括海釣船,包括民用的這些船那"},{"start":389.684,"end":389.944,"text":"二）委員二）委員"},{"start":419.38,"end":426.345,"text":"如何能夠準確落實執行我們的海防的措施你剛才簡單的講說因為人員的誤判怎麼會出現誤判的這種情況呢"},{"start":431.493,"end":443.957,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．"},{"start":460.402,"end":488.01,"text":"我想我們何時可以提出改善的措施以及當初誤判的主因你還是沒有講得很清楚這個部分我也請你在看一個禮拜之內提出相關的這個改善的措施以及這一次為什麼會誤判的原因在一個禮拜之內像本席以及我們內政委員會內政還有我們的司法法制的委員提出相關的素面說明好不好以上好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:32:21.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:32:22.036000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:32:22.036000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:32:24.920333+08:00","text":"主席，我們請銓敘部張次長。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-13T11:32:24.920333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:32:27.804667+08:00","text":"麻煩張次長。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:32:27.804667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:32:30.689000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:32:30.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:32:45.625000+08:00","text":"次長，有關今天要審查的警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案，我看到相關部門的整個報告都表示，根據公務人員的退撫法，現在不宜做任何的調整。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:32:45.625000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:32:46.625000+08:00","text":"是，這是我們的建議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:32:46.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:11.142000+08:00","text":"你們現在的報告的意見是這樣，但是根據我的瞭解，以今年新退的公務人員為例，若是以35年的年資，平均590個俸點，以及最後在職的15年的平均薪資，以這三個條件去計算的話，那麼最後可以拿到的平均月退休金為多少？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:11.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:15.425000+08:00","text":"次長，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:15.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:15.825000+08:00","text":"大概多少錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:18.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:18.523000+08:00","text":"最高嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:20.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:20.604000+08:00","text":"對，最高。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:21.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:22.145000+08:00","text":"你們平均多少？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:22.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:22.845000+08:00","text":"五萬三。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:22.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:23.845000+08:00","text":"五萬三嘛？對。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:22.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:24.506000+08:00","text":"這個數字是您認為足夠我們的退休公務人員生活嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:24.506000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:27.490333+08:00","text":"五萬三，以現在的生活條件。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:27.490333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:30.474667+08:00","text":"生活條件每一個人的感受就是見仁見智啦。","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:30.474667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:33:33.459000+08:00","text":"但是我們必須要以整體的財務去做處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:33:33.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:34:05.743000+08:00","text":"次長，我告訴你，現在以我們臺灣65歲以上的長者而言，退休後生活最重要的支出將會是一般的醫療跟長照的費用，根據衛福部的調查，65歲以上的老人平均每人每月的醫療費用是6,500元，是29歲以下族群的6.4倍。","quality":0.614},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:34:06.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:34:20.414000+08:00","text":"另外，依照我們民間機構的調查也指出，65歲以上老人的長照需求費用平均每個月是3萬元，所以一個65歲的退休人員，他的醫療費用加上長照費用大概要3萬6,000元，那你剛才講說，平均退休金大概就是5萬3,000元，五萬三這是怎麼樣一個概念？","quality":0.426},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:34:20.414000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:34:21.414000+08:00","text":"剛才講的醫療跟長照費用就占據了大概70%左右。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:34:20.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:35:14.130000+08:00","text":"依主計總處家庭支出五等分位的調查數字，我們來做一個比較，若是戶長在65歲以上，以中間等分的第三等分來看，家庭每月支出高達6萬元，所以依照您剛才講的，以現在的所得替代率來講，一個月才五萬三，根本不足夠他退休後的生活的費用。","quality":0.449},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:35:15.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:35:42.454000+08:00","text":"所以我要先問次長，因為我看到今天內政部和人事總處都認為不宜做修正，次長，你認為在這種條件下，如何來保障我們的退警也好，消防人員也好，或者是海巡人員，他們在退休後生活有足夠的保障？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:35:45.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:35:55.575000+08:00","text":"這個退撫的部分，跟委員報告，就是在退撫法裡面其實是有相關的機制，就是它也不是一定就這樣持續下去都不變的，就是在第九十二條……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:35:58.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:07.460000+08:00","text":"次長，我講得很清楚，明顯看起來就是不足，然後現在我們要修法你又不贊成，那你到底要如何來保障他們的退休生活？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:07.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:17.285000+08:00","text":"這邊修法我們不贊成，最大的爭點是在同一個基金繳同樣的錢，然後我們現在要他們領不一樣的錢……","quality":0.634},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:42.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:43.375000+08:00","text":"那你告訴我，你要如何加強他們的保障？","quality":0.312},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:43.375000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:44.375000+08:00","text":"那你告訴我啊，你告訴所有退警啊。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:44.375000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:45.375000+08:00","text":"退休的部分在退撫法第六十七條有雙重的調整機制，一個就是在CPI正負5%的時候就會做調整，然後第二個就是每四年也一定要做檢討和調整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:45.375000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:46.375000+08:00","text":"這個我們都瞭解，但是明顯的這些還是不足啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:46.375000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:47.375000+08:00","text":"我們在這方面會再去加強。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:43.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:52.437000+08:00","text":"我們今天也有提案，剛才羅智強委員也有提出一個臨時提案，針對這部分，請警政署對於未來要如何保障我們的警察人員退休的生活……","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:52.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:53.337000+08:00","text":"大家一起來努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:53.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:56.738000+08:00","text":"跟我們銓敘部一起來溝通討論。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:56.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:58.298000+08:00","text":"這個大家一起來努力，今天的修法真的會有很多……","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:36:58.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:36:59.718000+08:00","text":"一個月內要提出說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:37:02.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:37:25.626000+08:00","text":"我想今天你也說不清楚，請你跟警政署一樣，就是在三個月內提出未來如何保障退休的警察人員、消防人員及我們這次修法的海巡人員他們的退休生活，請說明如何保障，在三個月內提出書面說明。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"張次長秋元","start":"2024-06-13T11:37:26.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:37:26.627000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:37:26.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:37:27.567000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:37:27.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:37:30.448000+08:00","text":"另外，現在請海巡署張忠龍署長。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:37:31.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:37:49.694000+08:00","text":"署長，關於6月9日發生的陸男開快艇直衝淡水一事，海委會管碧玲主委坦承系統沒有失靈，但人出了問題。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:37:51.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:38:09.048000+08:00","text":"海巡也承認相關人員誤判，並表示會針對北部分署的分署長以及雷操手共10名人員，分別提出申誡跟記過處分，那我現在要跟你直球對決，請問署長，除了人員的懲處外，對於內部人員的訓練、管理及執勤時的落實，目前發現的問題，主要是哪些層面有疏漏？","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"張署長忠龍","start":"2024-06-13T11:38:21.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:38:45.904000+08:00","text":"特別跟委員報告，我們整個雷達偵蒐是在6海里就發現，然後我們逐級包括守望哨、安檢所都有監控，但是他們把這個目標當成一般進到我們的河道裡淡水區域的這些漁船，包括海釣船或民用的這些船，他們以常態性研判，這個船是在航向、航速不變的情況下直接進來的，所以在人員的研判上面，我們只能說，根據這個部分，他們當場研判是有疏漏的。","quality":0.514},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:39:15.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:39:20.444000+08:00","text":"署長，現在民間都流傳說，真的是我們的海防出了這麼大的紕漏，大家都在看笑話，所以說如何能夠準確落實執行我們的海防的措施？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:39:20.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:39:22.325000+08:00","text":"你剛才簡單就講說是因為人員的誤判，怎麼會出現誤判的這種情況呢？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"張署長忠龍","start":"2024-06-13T11:39:22.325000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:39:56.782000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為當地的現場有五、六十艘船，那個時間點剛好是他們要進港的時間點，根據同仁經驗的研判，他們判定這個船是要進到河道裡面的我們自己國籍的漁船，所以才會造成這樣的誤判，針對剛剛委員指導的部分，我們已經在加強整個勤務的教育跟訓練，還有雷操手的研判……","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:39:56.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:39:58.883000+08:00","text":"署長，何時可以提出改善的措施？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:40:00.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:40:23.230000+08:00","text":"當初誤判的主因，你還是沒有講得很清楚，這個部分我也請你在一個禮拜之內提出相關的改善措施，以及說明這一次為什麼會誤判的原因，在一個禮拜之內向本席與內政委員會、司法及法制委員會的委員，提出相關的書面說明，好不好？好。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員思銘","start":"2024-06-13T11:40:23.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-13T11:40:24.010000+08:00","text":"好，以上，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-13T11:40:24.510000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:40:35.081429+08:00","text":"署長，我多嘴兩句啦，如果這樣子可以，那以後槍砲跟毒品都很好進來，我講這樣應該沒錯吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-13T11:40:35.381429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:40:59.095714+08:00","text":"那一艘小艇可以載的毒品應該滿多的，如果照這樣講，這個都沒事，這個都覺得是正常，誤判為國內的小漁船，那也不用什麼緝毒，也不用國境防守，然後就直接讓他這麼簡單就進來，我是不認同這個說辭啦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張署長忠龍","start":"2024-06-13T11:40:59.395714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:41:03.967143+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們會加強我們的教育訓練。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-13T11:41:04.267143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:41:05.981429+08:00","text":"謝謝，謝謝署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-13T11:41:06.281429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-13T11:41:09.710000+08:00","text":"我們接下來請黃捷委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}