{"error":false,"id":["154113"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154113,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154113","日期":"2024-06-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"全院委員會-11-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"全院委員會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-20T09:22:43+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-20T09:33:50+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ceaf6abec8b4a6dc6f3392962bddef19dd1cafa7fa6f271027249ef8248f463d5b1ff11865c5e7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:22:43 - 09:33:50","會議時間":"2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。）","gazette":{"lineno":97,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時23分）謝謝副院長，有請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長好。我想要先請問，你們是不是在6月6號的時候，在你們的臉書上面提出行政院覆議案七大理由的圖卡？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼我們收到你們的報告裡面是從七項變成六項，可不可以先跟我們說明具體的原因？為什麼在臉書對外公開給大眾看的是一個版本，給立法委員看的是另外一個版本呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員發現，但是內容都是一樣的。"],["徐委員巧芯：內容一樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：公文書……"],["徐委員巧芯：你講話要誠實，內容一樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有一項放在內容裡面談。"],["徐委員巧芯：有一項是哪一項？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是「無差別」那一項。"],["徐委員巧芯：只有一項嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：「無差別」那一項。"],["徐委員巧芯：只有一項嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：「無差別」那一項。"],["徐委員巧芯：只有一項？你確定？我要問你的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：臉書上的po文……"],["徐委員巧芯：是不是只有一項？"],["卓院長榮泰：臉書上po文代表我那時候的心情，公文書……"],["徐委員巧芯：代表心情？你們發臉書只是代表你個人的心情？"],["卓院長榮泰：當時。"],["徐委員巧芯：行政院可以這樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我個人的臉書。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個是對人民公開的，是行政院提出覆議的七大理由，應該要非常審慎，不是按照院長的心情處理。你剛剛告訴我七大理由變六項，只是改了一個無差別，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：其他六項，包括那一項……"],["徐委員巧芯：其他都一樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：都有放在文字裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想問其他是不是都一樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：文字或許有調整，大意都是一樣的。"],["徐委員巧芯：或許有調整，調整的內容重要或不重要呢？你覺得。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是以公文書為準。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！你給民眾看的東西跟你給我的公文書不一樣啊！請問這個公文書有給家家戶戶、有給所有的民眾參考嗎？如果沒有，幾乎所有民眾只能在臉書上從6月6號到現在十幾天的時間看到你的心情和你寫的七大原因，跟我們所收到的公文書不一樣啊！院長！"],["卓院長榮泰：公文書是對大院提出的，可以透過……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以對大院的委員誠實……"],["卓院長榮泰：可以透過媒體……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是你對民眾欺騙！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，可以透過媒體讓大眾知道，當然我們不可能把公文書送到每一個人的手上。"],["徐委員巧芯：那為什麼內容會不一樣？你剛剛告訴我說，只有「無差別」三個字有改，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：大項是文字上有調整。"],["徐委員巧芯：我就問你說，是不是只有「無差別」調整？你先回答我這個問題嘛！這個覆議案是你們提出的，你不能我問你問題的時候，你不知道啊！不然，主席，我們時間停止，讓他們把答案找出來，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：已經跟委員報告過了。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為今天覆議案是你提出的，所以你給民眾看的版本跟你送給我們的公文書版本哪裡不一樣，如果院長都不清楚，那你們提什麼覆議案呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員下這種定義太直接了，當然是以公文……"],["徐委員巧芯：太直接了？我當然很直接啊，我代表人民，我還能不直接嗎？我要多委婉？"],["卓院長榮泰：直接要經過思考跟判斷。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你說要經過思考，對不對？你剛剛不願意回答我的問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：我回答了啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：我幫你整理好了！來，我們看下一張投影片，再下一張，我有標起來的，有三樣都是不一樣的，你們的圖卡裡面只有七條，結果有三條都跟你們傳給我們的正式覆議文書不一樣啊！來！「無差別」這個你們已經知道了嘛，根本沒有什麼無差別，所以你們在最後給我們的文書拿掉了。再來，你們本來說無限期人事同意權，空轉政府重要職權。你告訴我說，這個內容都還是有提到，雖然標題沒有，我問你覆議函裡面有沒有「空轉」兩個字？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是會造成憲法跟法定機關……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，我問你的是你提供給民眾參考的東西上面寫了空轉政府，但是你給我們的正式的函文裡面有沒有「空轉」兩個字嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：公文書我們認為文字上要用法律上的用詞，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你給民眾的是一套，給立委的是一套……"],["卓院長榮泰：比較清楚的表示。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們覺得這是很合理的行文，沒有欺騙民眾的嫌疑？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，比較清楚。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有？好，再來！懷疑官員虛偽陳述就可以課以刑責，「懷疑」兩個字不見了，在覆議函裡面沒有「懷疑」兩個字耶，你知道這件事嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：內文的表示就是不希望用主觀的判斷來認定一個刑責或行政處罰。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個昨天黃國昌委員在質詢的時候，我聽過了嘛，我問你的事情很簡單，來，我們回到那個七大覆議圖卡那一張，行政院的七大覆議理由裡面所寫的七項原因，跟你們所提供給我們的最後六項裡面，有三項文字在我們的函文裡面都沒有！所以我想要請問，這是不是一個錯誤？"],["卓院長榮泰：意思是完全相同的。"],["徐委員巧芯：意思不一樣！只要懷疑官員虛偽陳述就課以刑責跟沒有懷疑是不一樣的，無差別調查民眾跟沒有無差別調查民眾是不一樣的，會不會造成政府空轉跟不會造成政府空轉是不一樣的！"],["卓院長榮泰：我可以回答嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：這是一個最基本的文字邏輯，來！請回答！"],["卓院長榮泰：懷疑就是不需要用主觀的判斷，一個委員提案、五個委員連署就可以做有罪或無罪的認定，無差別就是希望能夠依照釋字第585號……"],["徐委員巧芯：那裡面為什麼不寫？"],["卓院長榮泰：我就跟委員報告過了。"],["徐委員巧芯：裡面為什麼不寫？"],["卓院長榮泰：送給大院的公文書依照法律的文字來做，對民眾的訴求，我們用一種法白的方式……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的問題叫做請針對問題回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：內容是一樣的。"],["徐委員巧芯：內容沒有一樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：只要委員能夠深入的去看，內容是一樣的。"],["徐委員巧芯：內容沒有一樣，因為你寫了「無差別」之後，所有的民眾看到都會以為自己也會被調查，但實際上，我們有相當程度的法律程序，以及相當的救濟。","我還有很多問題要問你，我們看一下，國會改革五法通過之後會出現這種情況嗎？我有幾個問題想問你，第一個問題是，國會改革五法通過以後，國會會被習近平管轄、會變成戒嚴嗎？會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不懂委員這個提問是……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們國會審查法案的時候，你有沒有看我們立法委員在討論什麼？你有沒有看我們立法委員針對這一些議題的發言？你有沒有看所謂逐條審查的內容？有看嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我從媒體上看到的比較多。"],["徐委員巧芯：你只從媒體上看……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們在院會表決的時候，這麼多人在議事台上面看，你不關心，然後你跟我說你今天提了一個覆議案！"],["卓院長榮泰：媒體……"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有看完，你跟我提一個覆議案！這一些委員還大多都是民進黨的，他們在台上侃侃而談的時候，你沒有看？"],["卓院長榮泰：媒體當然包括國會頻道。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你看了沒有？你有瞭解嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不能全程看，但是……"],["徐委員巧芯：你有深入地瞭解嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：重點的時候有看到。"],["徐委員巧芯：重點的時候有看到？那我剛剛問你的是很大的重點嘛！因為很多人都在講習近平。所以我問你，國會改革五法通過之後，請問國會會被戒嚴嗎？習近平會管轄臺灣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有看到這個重點。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有看到，我給你看是誰講的，我不用多唸他的名字，很多人都很熟，柯建銘講的。","再來，國會改革五法通過之後會出現這種情況嗎？國會改革通過，傅崐萁委員就再也不能被批評了，因為如果你批評他的話，就會跟習近平被叫小熊維尼的下場一樣，也就是說會被國家清算。請問國會改革五法通過之後，我們就不能再批評任何立法委員了嗎？請問我們在法條裡面的哪裡有提到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我不知道委員這個提案是什麼意思，國會改革是國會內部的改革，我希望它更有效率、立法品質更高，那……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以嘛！國會改革通過，藐視國會……"],["卓院長榮泰：立法委員該不該受批評……"],["徐委員巧芯：他是說下場就會一樣喔！藐視國會罪通過以後，立法委員不能被批評。我們在國會改革五法裡面有這一項嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：立法委員會不會受批評是自己言行的表達，但是如果……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以跟藐視國會就沒有關係嘛！我們來看這句話是誰講的？邱議瑩講的。","再問一個，國會改革五法通過以後，機敏的國家資料、企業重要專利的配方，會出現在習近平的桌上嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：會出現在立法院的桌上，但是會不會有其他的轉換，這個我不清楚。我們曾經有過這樣的疑慮，也發生過這樣的事件。"],["徐委員巧芯：喔？我們曾經有國家的資料出現在習近平桌上，院長有掌握？"],["卓院長榮泰：曾經有外散、外送出去，不一定到哪裡去。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我講的是習近平的桌上。我們看一下誰講的？民進黨委員說的啊！機敏資料、企業專利配方用國會五法改革的方式被帶到中國去，而且出現在習近平桌上。院長，我告訴你，這些都是在我們立法院所說的，造謠！我們的國會改革五法裡面非常清楚地有相關法令。"],["卓院長榮泰：機敏資料是有可能被散播出去的。"],["徐委員巧芯：被散播出去？那是誰散播出去的嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這要由機關來認定，這裡不是司法機關。"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒有說這裡是司法機關，不要扣我帽子喔！我從頭到尾都沒有談到國會是司法機關，請院長不要扣我帽子喔！我沒有講的話，不要塞到我的嘴巴裡！謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["委員徐巧芯書面意見：","質詢日期：中華民國113年6月20日","質詢部會：行政院","質詢題目：行政院提覆議係因正推行並保障官員說謊權?!","說明：負責守衛總統府的憲兵211營，今年3月1日晚間案發古姓上兵於哨上舉槍自傷，本席隨即發文要求憲指部針對該員排班哨表進行內部稽核，確認有無過勞、違反國軍規定之情事，憲指部於3月6日函文回覆本席「經稽核後，均符合國均警衛勤務教範規定」。另，3月7日外交國防委員會質詢台上也明確回覆本席「有去查看過當事人近3個月的勤務狀況，都是站二歇六」；惟3月22日經媒體披露真相後，才在3月27日委員會備詢改口「提供的資料、訊息與實況有落差」，合先敘明。","此案不僅函復本席公文上造假，亦於國會殿堂做虛偽之呈述，並刊載於立法院會議公報，這樣一個關乎性命的案件，是我們國軍對家屬負責的態度？所以行政院支持官員在台上說謊？以上開案件為例，依現行法律應該如何處理？有沒有罰則？官員面對人命公然說謊，只有行政、政治責任夠嗎？國防部部長4月17日於委員會備詢承諾提供的檢討報告至今仍無消無息。","當國會改革五法上路後，只要官員不說謊、不做虛偽陳述就不會有罰則，莫非現今政府正推行鼓勵官員說謊、欺騙立法委員？經查依現行法規僅有送監察院彈劾一途，惟該機關公信力已蕩然無存，連陳宗彥接受性招待都跟我們說沒有關係！我們難道不能立法讓官員不能向代表民意的立委說謊，試問窒礙難行之處？"],["主席：謝謝徐委員、謝謝卓院長。下一位請黃委員珊珊質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳昭姿","王定宇","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","賴惠員","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林德福","黃捷","王育敏","郭國文","柯志恩","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","黃健豪","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","王世堅","吳宗憲","陳俊宇","謝衣鳯","沈伯洋","翁曉玲"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-06-20"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00007","1136001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十\n一條之一條文等覆議案","agenda_id":"1136001_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.88034375,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.36909375,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.44346875,"end":34.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.30409375,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.994093750000005,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.77034375,"end":67.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.58159375000001,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.29409375,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.25159375,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.98534375,"end":79.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.92159375,"end":80.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.42346875,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.90846875000001,"end":82.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.05596875,"end":83.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.15284375,"end":84.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.12721875000001,"end":87.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.61221875000001,"end":88.48971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.74284375,"end":89.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.55284375000001,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.46409375,"end":91.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.57784375,"end":95.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.15971875000001,"end":99.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.01971875000001,"end":115.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.33596875,"end":100.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.41159375000001,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.75721875,"end":106.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.92846875000001,"end":121.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.32409375,"end":122.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.08346875000001,"end":124.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.26471875000001,"end":127.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.50096875000001,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.55534375,"end":129.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.79971875,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.80784375000002,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.90909375,"end":133.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.57971875,"end":136.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.75221875,"end":138.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.42284375,"end":166.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.77096875,"end":152.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.73659375,"end":156.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.51971875,"end":169.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.27034375000002,"end":169.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.38846875000002,"end":169.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.45596875,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.62471875,"end":173.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.03784375,"end":173.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.31596875000002,"end":178.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.48409375,"end":184.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.69846875000002,"end":186.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.12846875000002,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.29221875000002,"end":213.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.72596875000002,"end":196.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.01221875000002,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.98909375000002,"end":217.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.12784375,"end":220.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.22909375,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.52409375000002,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.97534375,"end":225.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.55284375000002,"end":230.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.40034375000002,"end":229.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.50971875000002,"end":232.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.54721875,"end":235.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.41596875000002,"end":236.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.93909375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但是內容都是一樣的內容一樣嗎?你講話要誠實喔 內容一樣嗎?我們都把這個 有一項都放在內容裡面來談有一項是哪一項?就是這個 這個哪個?"},{"start":86.175,"end":115.218,"text":"無差別那一項對對對只有一項嗎無差別那一項只有一項你確定我要問你的事是是不是只有一項臉書上的PO文臉書上PO文代表我那時候的心情公文書代表心情你們發臉書只是代表你個人的心情當時當時行政院可以這樣子嗎這個是對於人民公開的行政院七大復議理由應該是要非常審慎的不是按照我們院長的心情來處理的"},{"start":116.019,"end":136.212,"text":"所以七大你剛告訴我說,七大理由變六項,只是改了一個無差別,對不對?對不對?其他都一樣。我想問其他是不是都一樣?或許有調整。調整的內容重要或不重要呢?你覺得?"},{"start":138.793,"end":165.876,"text":"那不是嘛你給民眾看的東西跟你給我的公文書不一樣啊請問這個公文書有給家家戶戶有給所有的民眾參考嗎如果沒有那幾乎所有民眾他只能從臉書6月6號到現在十幾天的時間看到你的心情然後寫的七大原因跟我們所收到的公文書不一樣啊院長"},{"start":166.536,"end":190.039,"text":"公文書是對大院提出的,所以可以透過媒體讓大眾知道,但我們不可能把公文書送到每一個人的手上。那你為什麼內容會不一樣,你剛剛告訴我說只有無差別三個自由改對不對?條整只有,我就問你說是不是只有無差別條整,你先回答我這個問題嘛。"},{"start":191.84,"end":213.336,"text":"這個覆議案是你們提出的,我問你問題的時候你不知道啊,不然我們時間停止,讓他們把答案找出來好不好?因為我們今天覆議案是你提出的,所以你給民眾看的版本跟你送給我們的公文書的版本哪裡不一樣?如果我們的院長都不清楚,那你們提什麼覆議案呢?"},{"start":214.196,"end":214.456,"text":"一、二、三"},{"start":239.581,"end":261.898,"text":"呃...一二三嘛對不對一二三有三樣都是不一樣的你們的圖卡裡面只有七條結果有三條都跟你們傳給我們的正式覆議文書不一樣啊來無差別這個你們已經知道了嘛根本沒有什麼無差別齁所以你們在最後給我們的文書拿掉了"},{"start":264.938,"end":269.365,"text":"無限期人事同意權 空轉政府重要職權"},{"start":278.94,"end":293.701,"text":"但是會造成憲法跟法定機關我知道我問你的是你提供給民眾參考的東西上面寫了空轉政府但是你給我們的正式的韓文裡面有沒有空轉兩個字嗎?公文書上面我們用比較"},{"start":294.835,"end":296.137,"text":"懷疑官員虛偽陳述﹖就可以刻意刑責﹖懷疑兩個字不見了"},{"start":314.398,"end":319.439,"text":"這個昨天黃國昌委員在質詢的時候我聽過了嘛我問你的事情很簡單來我們回到那個七大覆議圖卡那一張好不好"},{"start":333.923,"end":355.242,"text":"行政院的七大覆議理由我看我這裡有沒有行政院的七大覆議理由裡面所寫的七項原因當中跟你們所提供給我們的最後的六項裡面有三項在文字上面在我們的本子裡面韓文裡面都沒有所以我想要請問這是不是一個錯誤"},{"start":356.906,"end":381.088,"text":"意思是完全相同的意思不一樣無差別調查民眾跟你只要懷疑官員虛偽陳述就刻意刑責跟沒有懷疑是不一樣的無差別調查民眾跟沒有無差別調查民眾是不一樣的會不會造成政府空喘跟這個不會造成政府空喘是不一樣的這是最基本的一個文字邏輯來請回答"},{"start":382.829,"end":396.436,"text":"懷疑就是不希望用主觀的判斷一個人委員提案五個人聯署就可以把它做有罪或無罪的認定無差別就是希望能夠依照事法自治第585條我就跟委員報告"},{"start":398.977,"end":425.919,"text":"跟大院的公文書依照法律的文字來做跟民眾的訴求我們用一種法牌的方式內容是一樣的只要委員能夠深入的去看內容是一樣的因為你寫了無差別之後所有的民眾看到都會以為自己也會被調查但實際上我們有相當程度的法律程式以及相當的救濟"},{"start":427.04,"end":448.182,"text":"我還有很多問題要問你我們看一下這個國會改革無法通過之後會出現這種情況嗎我有幾個問題想要問你第一個問題是這樣子的國會改革無法通過以後國會會被習近平管轄會變成戒嚴嗎會嗎"},{"start":452.094,"end":452.415,"text":"主條審查內容"},{"start":469.634,"end":471.055,"text":"媒體媒體當然包括國會頻道"},{"start":493.624,"end":517.869,"text":"那你看了沒有?你有瞭解嗎?你有深入的瞭解嗎?重點的時候有看到,那我剛剛問你很重點嘛,因為很多人都在講習近平嘛,所以我問你,國會改革文法通過之後,請問國會會被戒嚴嗎?習近平會管轄台灣嗎?我沒有看到這個重點。好,沒有看到,我給你看是誰講的?我不用多念他的名字,很多人都很熟。"},{"start":518.922,"end":544.702,"text":"科建民講的再來國會改革無法通過之後會出現這種情況嗎?國會改革通過傅昆奇委員就再也不能被批評了因為如果你批評他的話就會跟習近平被叫小熊維尼的下場一樣也就是說呢會被國家清算請問國會改革無法通過之後我們就不能再批評任何立法委員了嗎?"},{"start":545.965,"end":548.534,"text":"請問在法條裡面的哪裡有提到?"},{"start":551.889,"end":578.148,"text":"不知道委員這個提案是什麼意思?國會改革是國會內部的改革,我希望它更有效率,立法委員更高。所以嗎?國會改革通過,立法委員該不該受批評?他是說就會下場一樣喔,藐視國會通過以後立法委員不能被批評,我們在國會改革務法裡面有這一項嗎?立法委員會不會受批評是自己言行的表達。所以跟藐視國會最沒有關係嗎?來我們來看這句話是誰講的?"},{"start":583.242,"end":593.969,"text":"來再問一個國會改革文法通過以後機敏的國家資料企業的重要專利配方會出現在習近平的桌上嗎?"},{"start":596.235,"end":612.704,"text":"會出現在立法院的桌上但是會不會有其他的轉換我這個不清楚我們曾經也有過這樣的疑慮也發生過這樣的事件我們有曾經有國家的資料出現在習近平的桌上曾經有外傳外送出去不一定到哪裡去沒有我講的是習近平的桌上來我們看一下誰講的"},{"start":614.332,"end":619.053,"text":"記名資料是有可能被散播出去的被什麼被散播出去被散播出去"},{"start":658.783,"end":665.288,"text":"我從頭到尾都沒有排到國會和司法機關,請部長、院長不要揍我的腦子,我沒有講話不要排到我的嘴巴,謝謝好,謝謝徐委員、謝謝卓院長下一位請黃委員、珊珊質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:01.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:02.843000+08:00","text":"謝謝副院長，有請卓榮泰院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:02.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:03.063000+08:00","text":"請卓院長備詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:03.063000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:04.063000+08:00","text":"徐委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:03.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:03.223000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:03.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:31.206000+08:00","text":"我想要先請問，你們是不是在6月6號的時候，在你們的臉書上面提出行政院覆議案七大理由的圖卡？是的。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:32.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:40.293000+08:00","text":"為什麼我們收到你們的報告裡面是從七項變成六項，可不可以先跟我們說明具體的原因？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:41.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:49.821000+08:00","text":"為什麼在臉書對外公開給大眾看的是一個版本，給立法委員看的是另外一個版本呢？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:51.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:54.130000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員發現，但是內容都是一樣的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:54.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:56.253000+08:00","text":"內容一樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:56.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:57.253000+08:00","text":"公文書……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:56.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:23:59.077000+08:00","text":"你講話要誠實，內容一樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:23:59.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:02.021000+08:00","text":"我們有一項放在內容裡面談。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:02.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:03.563000+08:00","text":"有一項是哪一項？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:03.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:10.676000+08:00","text":"就是「無差別」那一項。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:10.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:11.676000+08:00","text":"只有一項嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:11.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:12.676000+08:00","text":"「無差別」那一項。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:10.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:12.938000+08:00","text":"只有一項嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:12.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:14.659000+08:00","text":"「無差別」那一項。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:14.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:15.520000+08:00","text":"只有一項？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:15.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:15.800000+08:00","text":"你確定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:15.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:16.821000+08:00","text":"我要問你的是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:16.821000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:17.821000+08:00","text":"臉書上的po文……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:17.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:17.982000+08:00","text":"是不是只有一項？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:17.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:21.885000+08:00","text":"臉書上po文代表我那時候的心情，公文書……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:21.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:22.746000+08:00","text":"代表心情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:23.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:25.728000+08:00","text":"你們發臉書只是代表你個人的心情？當時。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:25.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:28.170000+08:00","text":"行政院可以這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:28.170000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:29.170000+08:00","text":"你說我個人的臉書。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:28.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:38.018000+08:00","text":"這個是對人民公開的，是行政院提出覆議的七大理由，應該要非常審慎，不是按照院長的心情處理。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:39.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:46.504000+08:00","text":"你剛剛告訴我七大理由變六項，只是改了一個無差別，對不對？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:46.504000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:47.584000+08:00","text":"其他六項，包括那一項……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:47.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:50.686000+08:00","text":"其他都一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:50.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:51.686000+08:00","text":"都有放在文字裡面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:50.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:53.768000+08:00","text":"我想問其他是不是都一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:53.768000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:54.768000+08:00","text":"文字或許有調整，大意都是一樣的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:53.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:58.571000+08:00","text":"或許有調整，調整的內容重要或不重要呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:59.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:24:59.192000+08:00","text":"你覺得。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:24:59.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:02.034000+08:00","text":"我們還是以公文書為準。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:02.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:02.434000+08:00","text":"不是嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:02.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:07.798000+08:00","text":"你給民眾看的東西跟你給我的公文書不一樣啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:09.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:14.584000+08:00","text":"請問這個公文書有給家家戶戶、有給所有的民眾參考嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:14.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:28.876000+08:00","text":"如果沒有，幾乎所有民眾只能在臉書上從6月6號到現在十幾天的時間看到你的心情和你寫的七大原因，跟我們所收到的公文書不一樣啊！院長！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:29.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:31.878000+08:00","text":"公文書是對大院提出的，可以透過……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:31.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:33.793333+08:00","text":"所以對大院的委員誠實……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:33.793333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:35.708667+08:00","text":"可以透過媒體……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:35.708667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:37.624000+08:00","text":"但是你對民眾欺騙！","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:37.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:41.428000+08:00","text":"不是，可以透過媒體讓大眾知道，當然我們不可能把公文書送到每一個人的手上。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:41.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:43.169000+08:00","text":"那為什麼內容會不一樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:43.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:48.294000+08:00","text":"你剛剛告訴我說，只有「無差別」三個字有改，對不對？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:48.294000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:50.056000+08:00","text":"大項是文字上有調整。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:50.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:52.058000+08:00","text":"我就問你說，是不是只有「無差別」調整？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:52.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:53.019000+08:00","text":"你先回答我這個問題嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:54.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:25:58.963000+08:00","text":"這個覆議案是你們提出的，你不能我問你問題的時候，你不知道啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:25:59.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:03.567000+08:00","text":"不然，主席，我們時間停止，讓他們把答案找出來，好不好？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:03.567000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:04.567000+08:00","text":"已經跟委員報告過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:04.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:16.316000+08:00","text":"因為今天覆議案是你提出的，所以你給民眾看的版本跟你送給我們的公文書版本哪裡不一樣，如果院長都不清楚，那你們提什麼覆議案呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:16.316000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:19.349889+08:00","text":"委員下這種定義太直接了，當然是以公文……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:19.349889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:22.383778+08:00","text":"太直接了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:22.383778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:25.417667+08:00","text":"我當然很直接啊，我代表人民，我還能不直接嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:25.417667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:28.451556+08:00","text":"我要多委婉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:28.451556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:31.485444+08:00","text":"直接要經過思考跟判斷。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:31.485444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:34.519333+08:00","text":"好，你說要經過思考，對不對？","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:34.519333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:37.553222+08:00","text":"你剛剛不願意回答我的問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:37.553222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:40.587111+08:00","text":"我回答了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:40.587111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:43.621000+08:00","text":"我幫你整理好了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:43.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:26:57.012000+08:00","text":"來，我們看下一張投影片，再下一張，我有標起來的，有三樣都是不一樣的，你們的圖卡裡面只有七條，結果有三條都跟你們傳給我們的正式覆議文書不一樣啊！來！","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:26:57.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:04.878000+08:00","text":"「無差別」這個你們已經知道了嘛，根本沒有什麼無差別，所以你們在最後給我們的文書拿掉了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:07.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:12.365000+08:00","text":"再來，你們本來說無限期人事同意權，空轉政府重要職權。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:12.365000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:21.940000+08:00","text":"你告訴我說，這個內容都還是有提到，雖然標題沒有，我問你覆議函裡面有沒有「空轉」兩個字？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:21.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:23.943000+08:00","text":"但是會造成憲法跟法定機關……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:23.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:34.918000+08:00","text":"我知道，我問你的是你提供給民眾參考的東西上面寫了空轉政府，但是你給我們的正式的函文裡面有沒有「空轉」兩個字嘛？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:35.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:36.441000+08:00","text":"公文書我們認為文字上要用法律上的用詞，所以……","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:36.441000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:37.441000+08:00","text":"所以你給民眾的是一套，給立委的是一套……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:37.441000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:38.441000+08:00","text":"比較清楚的表示。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:38.441000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:39.441000+08:00","text":"你們覺得這是很合理的行文，沒有欺騙民眾的嫌疑？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:39.441000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:40.441000+08:00","text":"沒有，比較清楚。沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:40.441000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:41.441000+08:00","text":"好，再來！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:37.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:39.117000+08:00","text":"懷疑官員虛偽陳述就可以課以刑責，「懷疑」兩個字不見了，在覆議函裡面沒有「懷疑」兩個字耶，你知道這件事嗎？院長。","quality":0.457},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:39.117000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:27:57.398000+08:00","text":"內文的表示就是不希望用主觀的判斷來認定一個刑責或行政處罰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:27:57.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:28:35.960000+08:00","text":"這個昨天黃國昌委員在質詢的時候，我聽過了嘛，我問你的事情很簡單，來，我們回到那個七大覆議圖卡那一張，行政院的七大覆議理由裡面所寫的七項原因，跟你們所提供給我們的最後六項裡面，有三項文字在我們的函文裡面都沒有！","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:28:36.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:28:38.242000+08:00","text":"所以我想要請問，這是不是一個錯誤？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:28:39.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:28:41.087000+08:00","text":"意思是完全相同的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:28:41.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:28:42.388000+08:00","text":"意思不一樣！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:28:44.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:01.085000+08:00","text":"只要懷疑官員虛偽陳述就課以刑責跟沒有懷疑是不一樣的，無差別調查民眾跟沒有無差別調查民眾是不一樣的，會不會造成政府空轉跟不會造成政府空轉是不一樣的！","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:01.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:02.085000+08:00","text":"我可以回答嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:01.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:03.687000+08:00","text":"這是一個最基本的文字邏輯，來！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:03.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:04.068000+08:00","text":"請回答！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:05.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:17.675000+08:00","text":"懷疑就是不需要用主觀的判斷，一個委員提案、五個委員連署就可以做有罪或無罪的認定，無差別就是希望能夠依照釋字第585號……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:17.675000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:18.675000+08:00","text":"那裡面為什麼不寫？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:17.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:19.416000+08:00","text":"我就跟委員報告過了。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:19.416000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:22.197000+08:00","text":"裡面為什麼不寫？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:22.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:28.923000+08:00","text":"送給大院的公文書依照法律的文字來做，對民眾的訴求，我們用一種法白的方式……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:28.923000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:30.424000+08:00","text":"我問的問題叫做請針對問題回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:30.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:31.205000+08:00","text":"內容是一樣的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:31.205000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:33.487000+08:00","text":"內容沒有一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:33.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:36.569000+08:00","text":"只要委員能夠深入的去看，內容是一樣的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:37.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:48.919000+08:00","text":"內容沒有一樣，因為你寫了「無差別」之後，所有的民眾看到都會以為自己也會被調查，但實際上，我們有相當程度的法律程序，以及相當的救濟。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:50.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:29:57.968000+08:00","text":"我還有很多問題要問你，我們看一下，國會改革五法通過之後會出現這種情況嗎？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:29:57.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:11.182000+08:00","text":"我有幾個問題想問你，第一個問題是，國會改革五法通過以後，國會會被習近平管轄、會變成戒嚴嗎？會嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:11.182000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:12.553000+08:00","text":"我不懂委員這個提問是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:12.553000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:13.924000+08:00","text":"我們國會審查法案的時候，你有沒有看我們立法委員在討論什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:13.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:15.295000+08:00","text":"你有沒有看我們立法委員針對這一些議題的發言？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:15.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:15.395000+08:00","text":"你有沒有看所謂逐條審查的內容？","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:15.395000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:18.298167+08:00","text":"有看嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:18.298167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:21.201333+08:00","text":"我從媒體上看到的比較多。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:21.201333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:24.104500+08:00","text":"你只從媒體上看……當然。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:24.104500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:27.007667+08:00","text":"所以我們在院會表決的時候，這麼多人在議事台上面看，你不關心，然後你跟我說你今天提了一個覆議案！媒體……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:27.007667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:29.910833+08:00","text":"你沒有看完，你跟我提一個覆議案！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:29.910833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:32.814000+08:00","text":"這一些委員還大多都是民進黨的，他們在台上侃侃而談的時候，你沒有看？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:32.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:34.035000+08:00","text":"媒體當然包括國會頻道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:56.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:57.364000+08:00","text":"那你看了沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:57.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:58.884000+08:00","text":"你有瞭解嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:58.884000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:30:59.884000+08:00","text":"當然不能全程看，但是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:30:58.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:01.985000+08:00","text":"你有深入地瞭解嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:01.985000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:02.985000+08:00","text":"重點的時候有看到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:01.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:02.925000+08:00","text":"重點的時候有看到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:03.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:04.246000+08:00","text":"那我剛剛問你的是很大的重點嘛！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:04.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:06.226000+08:00","text":"因為很多人都在講習近平。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:06.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:12.167000+08:00","text":"所以我問你，國會改革五法通過之後，請問國會會被戒嚴嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:12.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:15.048000+08:00","text":"習近平會管轄臺灣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:15.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:16.428000+08:00","text":"我沒有看到這個重點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:16.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:22.623000+08:00","text":"沒有看到，我給你看是誰講的，我不用多唸他的名字，很多人都很熟，柯建銘講的。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:23.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:28.888000+08:00","text":"再來，國會改革五法通過之後會出現這種情況嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:28.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:41.638000+08:00","text":"國會改革通過，傅崐萁委員就再也不能被批評了，因為如果你批評他的話，就會跟習近平被叫小熊維尼的下場一樣，也就是說會被國家清算。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:43.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:47.702000+08:00","text":"請問國會改革五法通過之後，我們就不能再批評任何立法委員了嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:48.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:31:51.514000+08:00","text":"請問我們在法條裡面的哪裡有提到？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:31:54.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:01.874000+08:00","text":"我不知道委員這個提案是什麼意思，國會改革是國會內部的改革，我希望它更有效率、立法品質更高，那……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:02.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:02.354000+08:00","text":"所以嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:02.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:03.675000+08:00","text":"國會改革通過，藐視國會……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:03.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:07.758000+08:00","text":"立法委員該不該受批評……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:07.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:09.960000+08:00","text":"他是說下場就會一樣喔！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:11.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:14.123000+08:00","text":"藐視國會罪通過以後，立法委員不能被批評。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:14.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:16.524000+08:00","text":"我們在國會改革五法裡面有這一項嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:16.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:20.247000+08:00","text":"立法委員會不會受批評是自己言行的表達，但是如果……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:20.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:20.927000+08:00","text":"所以跟藐視國會就沒有關係嘛！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:20.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:21.128000+08:00","text":"我們來看這句話是誰講的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:21.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:26.242000+08:00","text":"邱議瑩講的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:26.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:36.969000+08:00","text":"再問一個，國會改革五法通過以後，機敏的國家資料、企業重要專利的配方，會出現在習近平的桌上嗎？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:39.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:43.657000+08:00","text":"會出現在立法院的桌上，但是會不會有其他的轉換，這個我不清楚。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:44.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:46.779000+08:00","text":"我們曾經有過這樣的疑慮，也發生過這樣的事件。喔？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:47.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:50.501000+08:00","text":"我們曾經有國家的資料出現在習近平桌上，院長有掌握？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:50.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:53.342000+08:00","text":"曾經有外散、外送出去，不一定到哪裡去。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:53.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:54.963000+08:00","text":"沒有，我講的是習近平的桌上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:55.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:55.684000+08:00","text":"我們看一下誰講的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:55.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:56.684000+08:00","text":"民進黨委員說的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:56.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:57.684000+08:00","text":"機敏資料、企業專利配方用國會五法改革的方式被帶到中國去，而且出現在習近平桌上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:57.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:58.684000+08:00","text":"院長，我告訴你，這些都是在我們立法院所說的，造謠！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:58.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:59.684000+08:00","text":"我們的國會改革五法裡面非常清楚地有相關法令。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:57.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:32:58.552000+08:00","text":"機敏資料是有可能被散播出去的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:32:59.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:00.773000+08:00","text":"被散播出去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:01.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:02.033000+08:00","text":"那是誰散播出去的嘛？","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:02.033000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:21.908000+08:00","text":"所以這要由機關來認定，這裡不是司法機關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:21.908000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:41.783000+08:00","text":"我沒有說這裡是司法機關，不要扣我帽子喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:41.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:43.985000+08:00","text":"我從頭到尾都沒有談到國會是司法機關，請院長不要扣我帽子喔！","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:44.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:46.967000+08:00","text":"我沒有講的話，不要塞到我的嘴巴裡！謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:46.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:47.967000+08:00","text":"中華民國113年6月20日","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:47.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:48.967000+08:00","text":"行政院","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:48.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:49.967000+08:00","text":"行政院提覆議係因正推行並保障官員說謊權?!","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:49.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:50.967000+08:00","text":"負責守衛總統府的憲兵211營，今年3月1日晚間案發古姓上兵於哨上舉槍自傷，本席隨即發文要求憲指部針對該員排班哨表進行內部稽核，確認有無過勞、違反國軍規定之情事，憲指部於3月6日函文回覆本席「經稽核後，均符合國均警衛勤務教範規定」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:50.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:51.967000+08:00","text":"另，3月7日外交國防委員會質詢台上也明確回覆本席「有去查看過當事人近3個月的勤務狀況，都是站二歇六」；惟3月22日經媒體披露真相後，才在3月27日委員會備詢改口「提供的資料、訊息與實況有落差」，合先敘明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:51.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:52.967000+08:00","text":"此案不僅函復本席公文上造假，亦於國會殿堂做虛偽之呈述，並刊載於立法院會議公報，這樣一個關乎性命的案件，是我們國軍對家屬負責的態度？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:52.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:53.967000+08:00","text":"所以行政院支持官員在台上說謊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:53.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:54.967000+08:00","text":"以上開案件為例，依現行法律應該如何處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:54.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:55.967000+08:00","text":"有沒有罰則？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:55.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:56.967000+08:00","text":"官員面對人命公然說謊，只有行政、政治責任夠嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:56.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:57.967000+08:00","text":"國防部部長4月17日於委員會備詢承諾提供的檢討報告至今仍無消無息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:57.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:58.967000+08:00","text":"當國會改革五法上路後，只要官員不說謊、不做虛偽陳述就不會有罰則，莫非現今政府正推行鼓勵官員說謊、欺騙立法委員？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:58.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:59.967000+08:00","text":"經查依現行法規僅有送監察院彈劾一途，惟該機關公信力已蕩然無存，連陳宗彥接受性招待都跟我們說沒有關係！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員徐巧芯書面意見","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:59.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-20T09:34:00.967000+08:00","text":"我們難道不能立法讓官員不能向代表民意的立委說謊，試問窒礙難行之處？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:47.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:47.828000+08:00","text":"謝謝徐委員、謝謝卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-20T09:33:47.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-20T09:33:48.288000+08:00","text":"下一位請黃委員珊珊質詢。","quality":1}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}