{"error":false,"id":["154349"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154349,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154349","日期":"2024-06-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,15],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-27T10:07:29+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-27T10:19:34+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:05","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c997b8841e8c9330fda706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771be027a2bf8945983e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:07:29 - 10:19:34","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":499,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時7分）謝謝召委，有請原民會鍾副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：早。人事行政總處只有來了副處長而已，是不是？請，謝謝。","副主委，今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨做決定，我本來以為今天人事長會來，我就針對跟原住民族有關係的部分就教。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們看到原住民族委員會組織法裡面的規範，原民會所置的委員，跟整個國發會主委與委員之間都是部長層級的又不太一樣。對於今天兩個版本，你的看法是怎麼樣？對這個議題，其實我比這個還更開放，本席一直都主張原住民族其實是可以自治的，我都這樣認為。我為什麼說我比較開放？理由就是這兩個條文裡面，我也不認為譬如又去兼任政委以後就可以做解決，你們原民會現在對這個的態度是如何？我現在聽聽副主委你的看法。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，從原民會成立以來，我們都有族群委員，我們的族群委員占了很重要的角色，我們的重要會議或委員會議、下鄉跟部落協調溝通、甚至參加任何活動，他們都是我們部落跟原民會之間很重要的橋梁。而且目前我們16位族群委員裡面有分兩梯，一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面，一半的人在各區做這樣的交流工作推動。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我在問東，你卻講到西去了。我在問你對今天委員會審查這項法案的看法。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：其實我們認為這次提案是希望無給職，但是我們還是希望能夠用聘用的方式進用，繼續負責他們的工作。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，我就提問一些你比較熟的。譬如原民會的主委由全國原住民議員或鄉鎮長做審查、來行使這樣的同意權，你的看法是如何？譬如你也可以認為從責任政治來看，或者整個人事同意權的行使方面，到底對貴會來講有沒有什麼複雜性，會有什麼窒礙難行的地方？甚至於對現狀做改變的話，有什麼窒礙難行？就是談到那個風險，我想問你真正的看法。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢，如果現在按照這樣的提案，希望由地方的縣市、直轄市及鄉鎮市區長來審查同意，我覺得這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整，而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名、總統任命的權力，何況他又是政務官。"],["莊委員瑞雄：同樣的問題，是不是就教一下人事行政總處副處長？"],["李副處長靜宜：委員好。因為基於憲法第五十六條已經規定各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命，目前為止並沒有由地方的議員同意的情況，是沒有這樣的規定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不覺得他們這樣的提案也很有創意嗎？但現制上窒礙難行，這就是你的看法？"],["李副處長靜宜：應該說我們不太確定細節上面要如何操作。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，副處長請回。副主委，我倒是這樣認為，原住民族委員會、甚至很多原民的委員希望整個原民裡面有更大的自主空間，這個我們可以理解。但是我的意思是，現在的方式對於整個原住民族的自治來講，究竟是一個突破或者有助益的方向？或者以現狀來看的話，根本完全跟整個體制不合，會造成你們施政上的紊亂？你要提出自己的看法，就是比較有高度的看法。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：就這個部分，現狀的衝突是存在的，說是創意的話，因為目前如果走向自治，配套措施也要有完整的規劃，才有可能這樣進行。當一個完整的規劃還沒有辦法出現，只就這個點這樣去進行的時候，可能會遇到很多現況的困境。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是以你們這個說法，等於今天如果這個條文要進入逐條的話，你們怎麼樣去做說明呢？好，我繼續再來請教。我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講到，因為時間上的緊迫，他首要的任務是要去回應111年憲判字第17號相關的工作，推動平埔族的正名。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：以現在來看的話，這個政策及方向如果繼續去走的話，就變成未來除了山原及平原以外，會再多一個……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：平埔原。"],["莊委員瑞雄：平埔原住民。本席在過去質詢過前任的原民會主委、內政部部長及中選會主委，多了一個平埔族的原民以後，影響的層面非常大，我相信最大的、第一個大家想到的就是政治層面的衝擊，也就是整個選舉制度。以現在來看的話，我們憲法裡面所明定的就只有山原及平原的席次，如果多出一個平埔族原住民出來以後，按照憲法的指示，針對未來產生的衝擊、你們籌備的部分，你們現在方向是怎麼樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們現在也成立了一個工作小組，針對設專法的部分，我們也在諮詢討論，7月、8月大概會有十幾場的徵詢會議……"],["莊委員瑞雄：然後他的權益呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：權益當然會另以法律定之，在諮詢會議的時候，我們的草案有分甲版、乙版。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是，我懂你的意思，但我的意思是從政治層面、從選舉制度來看，那你怎麼辦？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：如果是說地方選舉的部分，要從地方制度法去修……"],["莊委員瑞雄：什麼？這哪是地方制度法去修？這怎麼會是地方制度法呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為如果在權利上，他們想要做一個平埔族民意代表參與選舉的話，可能這在地方制度法上去做整理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你真的以為是地方制度法？那他們怎麼選立委？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：立委的話就不一樣，因為立委在憲法明定山原、平原各三席，這是兩種不同的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說各個原住民族不是變成又不平等了嗎？會不會有這樣的問題？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，所以這個部分可能要再多一點討論跟共識。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這不是討論跟共識，這是涉及到整個修憲的問題了。以現在來看，我的意思就是說，針對平埔族群這樣一個修法的工程，你剛剛提到的是方向跟啟動的問題，但是涉及到修憲這個部分，國民黨它本身對修憲是沒有興趣的，我的意思是說，副主委，你從原民的考量觀點來做出發的話，你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將回復原住民族身分的平埔族的權益？我談的是這個、我談的是這個！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，因為當時在釋憲裡面就提到就平埔族相關權利的保障，是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配，我們會用另外一個法律來訂定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：用另外一個法律來訂定？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你們都已經規劃好了？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前我們的草案裡面有分甲案、乙案來做一個討論，對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就回到鄭天財鄭委員的提案，他這個提案又有創意了。他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後，還要經過全國具有原住民身分的議員、鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意。第一個，當然我們所擔心的，恐怕會造成責任政治的混亂。原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會，跟行政院一同對立法院負責，如果說原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身分的議員、鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠任命，你認為這到底是誰對誰負責？當然，今天有人會舉例，是不是警政署長要全國警察同意才能夠任命？體育署長要全國運動員同意才能任命？不同的命題啦！但對於原住民族自治這個部分，我倒認為這樣的一個提案反而範圍、幅度還很小，不夠魄力，但我問的是會產生什麼樣的影響？我看你們好像覺得無關緊要？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上，因為主委是院長提名，總統任命，他有一定的任期跟政務官的身分，但如果又要經過地方民意代表同意，實際上，我們認為這個對於原民政策的責任會有所錯置，除非有整個配套措施。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然會有衝突啦，一定會有衝突啦！以責任政治來講的話，誰任命誰要負最終局的責任；但是如果你是地方的民代，不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長，他去認可他，也許是基於自己的政治利益，或者是地方上的一個利益，跟整個施政也許會有衝突的地方，跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方，甚至到最後人選都不一定可以產生，到最後受害的還是回到整個原住民的族群，這個就不公平、這個就不公平了！所以我看你們對於今天這樣一個案子，也許你都還沒有自己的看法，所以我才覺得以你的層級來看這一題，其實這個還涉及到人事總處。這個問題，其實你們要先有答案、要先想好，今天備詢的答案這樣是不行的啦！好不好？要加油啦！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝莊委員。","下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","蘇巧慧","沈發惠","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","羅智強","林思銘","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","林倩綺","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","高金素梅","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王美惠","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修\n正草案」案；(二)委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":5.75159375,"end":6.84846875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":6.98346875,"end":7.03409375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":7.08471875,"end":11.84346875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.84346875,"end":12.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":13.547843750000002,"end":14.40846875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":14.84721875,"end":15.52221875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":16.58534375,"end":17.19284375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":17.88471875,"end":17.90159375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.90159375,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":18.03659375,"end":18.10409375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":18.137843750000002,"end":22.00221875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":22.91346875,"end":24.02721875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":25.05659375,"end":26.204093750000002,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":26.777843750000002,"end":28.296593750000003,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":28.54971875,"end":28.566593750000003,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.566593750000003,"end":28.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":29.460968750000003,"end":46.234718750000006,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.234718750000006,"end":46.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":46.70721875,"end":50.672843750000006,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":50.95971875,"end":53.541593750000004,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":53.67659375,"end":65.15159375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":65.64096875,"end":67.42971875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":68.03721875000001,"end":69.25221875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":69.74159375,"end":70.82159375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":72.23909375000001,"end":73.99409375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":74.97284375000001,"end":78.01034375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":78.38159375000001,"end":79.57971875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":80.57534375,"end":81.40221875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":81.65534375,"end":82.66784375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":82.83659375,"end":90.05909375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":90.59909375000001,"end":103.13721875,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.44096875000001,"end":110.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":104.41971875,"end":104.57159375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":108.13221875,"end":108.26721875000001,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.96721875,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.18659375,"end":113.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.75159375000001,"end":118.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.64534375000001,"end":121.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.50971875,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.80471875,"end":136.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":140.31284375,"end":142.79346875000002,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":143.82284375,"end":152.39534375000002,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":152.68221875,"end":152.69909375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.69909375,"end":152.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":152.74971875,"end":152.91846875000002,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.91846875000002,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":152.93534375000002,"end":152.96909375,"speaker_score":0.89},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.96909375,"end":152.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.26846875,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.86721875,"end":165.96284375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責他們來的工作這樣子好啦那我就提問一些你比較熟的啦我問的比較熟的啦你像比如說我們原民會的主委你認為說全國的議員原住民的一個議員或鄉鎮長來這樣做一個審查來行使這樣的一個同意權你的看法是如何"},{"start":186.593,"end":209.464,"text":"比如說你也可以認為從責任政治來看或者說整個人事同意人事權的一個行使方面到底對你們會有沒有什麼複雜或什麼自然難省的一個地方或者你們甚至於跟現狀來做一個改變的話有什麼自然難省就是談到那個風險我想真正問你的看法"},{"start":211.136,"end":236.343,"text":"以目前這樣在28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢那如果現在按照這樣的提案希望由地方的縣市、直轄市跟鄉鎮市區長的審查同意我覺得當然這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名總統任命的一個權利而且他又是政務官"},{"start":237.976,"end":262.856,"text":"這個同樣的問題我是不是就教一下我們人事總署副處長這邊是委員好因為基於憲法第56條已經規定就是各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命那在目前為止是沒有這個由地方的議員再來同意這樣子的一個情況是沒有這樣的規定那你不覺得他們這樣的一個提案也很有創意嗎但限制上是很難行"},{"start":267.998,"end":276.771,"text":"這就是你的看法?應該說我們不太確定他細節上面要如何操作。好,那個副組長你請回啊。"},{"start":278.294,"end":306.652,"text":"副主委我這樣倒是這樣子認為啦原住民族我們原民會甚至我們很多原民的一個委員他希望整個原民裡面自己有更大的一個自主的一個空間這個我們可以理解啦但是我的意思就是說你以現在的這樣的一個方式對於整個原住民族的一個自治來講的話是一個突破或者說是有一個是一個有一個有注意的"},{"start":307.568,"end":307.628,"text":"主席"},{"start":332.318,"end":332.418,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":348.436,"end":352.938,"text":"我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講說時間上的一個緊迫他所要的一個任務是要去回應憲法第111年憲判制第17號相關的一個工作推動平補足的一個證明那以現在來看的話"},{"start":371.345,"end":371.945,"text":"委員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":399.008,"end":426.608,"text":"第一個大家想到的就是政治上層面的一個衝擊就是整個選舉制度那以現在來看的話我們憲法裡面所明定的就是只有三元跟平元的一個席次那你如果讓整個平埔族我們就變成說我們在多出一個平埔族的一個原住民出來以後按照憲法的一個指示那未來產生的衝擊你們籌備的部分你們現在方向是怎麼樣"},{"start":427.458,"end":454.924,"text":"我們現在也成立了一個工作小組那針對社裝法的部分我們也在諮詢討論那我們7月8月大概會有17場的一個徵詢會議然後他的權益呢那權益當然是會另一法律訂正那大概在諮詢會議的時候我們的草案有分甲板乙板不是我懂你的意思我的意思是從政治層面從選舉制度來看那你怎麼辦"},{"start":457.978,"end":458.639,"text":"議員高金素梅等24人擬具"},{"start":475.054,"end":475.074,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":503.237,"end":503.257,"text":"國民黨"},{"start":522.563,"end":535.3,"text":"他本身對修憲是沒有興趣的啦那我的意思是你從那個副主委你從原民的一個考量的觀點來做一個出發的話你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將恢復原住民族身份的評普組的權益我談的是這個我談的是這個"},{"start":541.536,"end":569.644,"text":"因為當時在市縣裡面就提到就平埔族的相關權利的保障是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配我們會用另外一個法律來訂定另外一個法律來訂定所以你們都已經規劃好了所以目前我們的草案裡面有分假案、疑案來做一個討論來對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論"},{"start":570.638,"end":597.097,"text":"我去回到我們鄭天財政委員的提案他這個提案又有創意了他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意第一個當然我們像我們所擔心的很怕會造成責任政治的一個混亂原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會跟行政院一同對立法院負責如果說"},{"start":598.058,"end":601.839,"text":"原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身份的議員鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠認命那你認為這個到底是誰對誰負責的問題當然今天有人會舉例那是不是警政署長要全國警察認命同意才能夠認命那體育署長要全國運動員同意才能認命不同的命題但對於原住民族自治這個部分我倒認為這樣的一個提案"},{"start":624.424,"end":631.209,"text":"我們提到因為這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上因為主委是總統院長提名總統任命他有一定的任期跟政務官的身份但是又要經過"},{"start":652.205,"end":652.806,"text":"當然會有衝突啦 一定會有衝突啦"},{"start":664.691,"end":690.417,"text":"責任政治來講的話誰任命誰要負最終極的一個責任但是如果你是地方的民代或者不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長他所低於他去認可他也許是自己的一個政治利益或者說地方上的一個利益跟整個市政也許會有衝突的地方跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方甚至到最後你都人選都不一定可以做一個產生"},{"start":691.337,"end":702.675,"text":"那到處要受害的還是回到整個我們整個原住民的一個質詢這個就不公平了 這個就不公平了所以我看你們對於今天這樣的一個案子"},{"start":704.162,"end":704.182,"text":"韓國瑜"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:07:29+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:07:34.557000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請原民會鍾副主委。","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-27T10:07:34.557000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:07:40.114000+08:00","text":"麻煩副主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:07:40.114000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:07:45.671000+08:00","text":"莊委員好。早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:07:45.671000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:07:51.228000+08:00","text":"人事行政總處只有來了副處長而已，是不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:07:51.228000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:07:56.785000+08:00","text":"請，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:07:56.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:08:14.634000+08:00","text":"副主委，今天其實這兩個法案裡面也不是原民會的層級可以單獨做決定，我本來以為今天人事長會來，我就針對跟原住民族有關係的部分就教。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:08:14.634000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:08:16.114000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:08:16.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:08:31.377000+08:00","text":"我們看到原住民族委員會組織法裡面的規範，原民會所置的委員，跟整個國發會主委與委員之間都是部長層級的又不太一樣。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:08:34.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:08:38.806000+08:00","text":"對於今天兩個版本，你的看法是怎麼樣？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:08:41.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:08:49.809000+08:00","text":"對這個議題，其實我比這個還更開放，本席一直都主張原住民族其實是可以自治的，我都這樣認為。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:08:50.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:08:53.411000+08:00","text":"我為什麼說我比較開放？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:08:53.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:09:10.679000+08:00","text":"理由就是這兩個條文裡面，我也不認為譬如又去兼任政委以後就可以做解決，你們原民會現在對這個的態度是如何？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:09:11.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:09:11.440000+08:00","text":"我現在聽聽副主委你的看法。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:09:11.440000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:09:35.435000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，從原民會成立以來，我們都有族群委員，我們的族群委員占了很重要的角色，我們的重要會議或委員會議、下鄉跟部落協調溝通、甚至參加任何活動，他們都是我們部落跟原民會之間很重要的橋梁。","quality":0.129},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:09:35.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:09:45.038000+08:00","text":"而且目前我們16位族群委員裡面有分兩梯，一個禮拜一半的人在會裡面，一半的人在各區做這樣的交流工作推動。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:09:45.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:09:45.458000+08:00","text":"我在問東，你卻講到西去了。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:09:45.458000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:10:06.206000+08:00","text":"我在問你對今天委員會審查這項法案的看法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:10:06.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:10:14.088000+08:00","text":"其實我們認為這次提案是希望無給職，但是我們還是希望能夠用聘用的方式進用，繼續負責他們的工作。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:10:14.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:10:19.409000+08:00","text":"好，我就提問一些你比較熟的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:10:21.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:10:27.291000+08:00","text":"譬如原民會的主委由全國原住民議員或鄉鎮長做審查、來行使這樣的同意權，你的看法是如何？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:10:35.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:10:49.019000+08:00","text":"譬如你也可以認為從責任政治來看，或者整個人事同意權的行使方面，到底對貴會來講有沒有什麼複雜性，會有什麼窒礙難行的地方？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:10:50.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:10:55.162000+08:00","text":"甚至於對現狀做改變的話，有什麼窒礙難行？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:10:55.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:10:58.444000+08:00","text":"就是談到那個風險，我想問你真正的看法。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:11:01.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:11:25.323000+08:00","text":"這28年來原民會這樣的運作還算順暢，如果現在按照這樣的提案，希望由地方的縣市、直轄市及鄉鎮市區長來審查同意，我覺得這個部分我們也不曉得要怎麼去調整，而且這是在憲法裡面明定院長提名、總統任命的權力，何況他又是政務官。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:11:26.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:11:31.280000+08:00","text":"同樣的問題，是不是就教一下人事行政總處副處長？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李副處長靜宜","start":"2024-06-27T10:11:31.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:11:31.700000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李副處長靜宜","start":"2024-06-27T10:11:34.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:11:48.853000+08:00","text":"因為基於憲法第五十六條已經規定各部會的首長是由行政院院長提請總統任命，目前為止並沒有由地方的議員同意的情況，是沒有這樣的規定。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:11:49.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:11:51.515000+08:00","text":"你不覺得他們這樣的提案也很有創意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:11:51.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:11:57.539000+08:00","text":"但現制上窒礙難行，這就是你的看法？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李副處長靜宜","start":"2024-06-27T10:12:00.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:12:02.787000+08:00","text":"應該說我們不太確定細節上面要如何操作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:12:03.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:12:05.591000+08:00","text":"好，副處長請回。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:12:07.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:12:22.884000+08:00","text":"副主委，我倒是這樣認為，原住民族委員會、甚至很多原民的委員希望整個原民裡面有更大的自主空間，這個我們可以理解。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:12:23.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:12:32.590000+08:00","text":"但是我的意思是，現在的方式對於整個原住民族的自治來講，究竟是一個突破或者有助益的方向？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:12:32.590000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:12:40.064333+08:00","text":"或者以現狀來看的話，根本完全跟整個體制不合，會造成你們施政上的紊亂？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:12:40.064333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:12:47.538667+08:00","text":"你要提出自己的看法，就是比較有高度的看法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:12:47.538667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:12:55.013000+08:00","text":"就這個部分，現狀的衝突是存在的，說是創意的話，因為目前如果走向自治，配套措施也要有完整的規劃，才有可能這樣進行。","quality":0.06},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:12:55.013000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:13:02.487333+08:00","text":"當一個完整的規劃還沒有辦法出現，只就這個點這樣去進行的時候，可能會遇到很多現況的困境。","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:13:02.487333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:13:09.961667+08:00","text":"但是以你們這個說法，等於今天如果這個條文要進入逐條的話，你們怎麼樣去做說明呢？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:13:09.961667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:13:17.436000+08:00","text":"好，我繼續再來請教。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:13:17.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:13:21.017000+08:00","text":"我記得你們主委上任受訪的時候也講到，因為時間上的緊迫，他首要的任務是要去回應111年憲判字第17號相關的工作，推動平埔族的正名。是。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:13:21.017000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:13:27.459667+08:00","text":"以現在來看的話，這個政策及方向如果繼續去走的話，就變成未來除了山原及平原以外，會再多一個……","quality":0.171},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:13:27.459667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:13:33.902333+08:00","text":"平埔原。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:13:33.902333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:13:40.345000+08:00","text":"平埔原住民。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:13:40.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:14:13.212000+08:00","text":"本席在過去質詢過前任的原民會主委、內政部部長及中選會主委，多了一個平埔族的原民以後，影響的層面非常大，我相信最大的、第一個大家想到的就是政治層面的衝擊，也就是整個選舉制度。","quality":0.329},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:14:14.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:14:35.608000+08:00","text":"以現在來看的話，我們憲法裡面所明定的就只有山原及平原的席次，如果多出一個平埔族原住民出來以後，按照憲法的指示，針對未來產生的衝擊、你們籌備的部分，你們現在方向是怎麼樣？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:14:36.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:14:47.640000+08:00","text":"我們現在也成立了一個工作小組，針對設專法的部分，我們也在諮詢討論，7月、8月大概會有十幾場的徵詢會議……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:14:47.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:14:50.001000+08:00","text":"然後他的權益呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:14:50.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:14:56.782000+08:00","text":"權益當然會另以法律定之，在諮詢會議的時候，我們的草案有分甲版、乙版。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:14:57.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:03.924000+08:00","text":"不是，我懂你的意思，但我的意思是從政治層面、從選舉制度來看，那你怎麼辦？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:03.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:08.316091+08:00","text":"如果是說地方選舉的部分，要從地方制度法去修……什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:08.316091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:12.708182+08:00","text":"這哪是地方制度法去修？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:12.708182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:17.100273+08:00","text":"這怎麼會是地方制度法呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:17.100273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:21.492364+08:00","text":"因為如果在權利上，他們想要做一個平埔族民意代表參與選舉的話，可能這在地方制度法上去做整理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:21.492364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:25.884455+08:00","text":"你真的以為是地方制度法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:25.884455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:30.276545+08:00","text":"那他們怎麼選立委？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:30.276545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:34.668636+08:00","text":"立委的話就不一樣，因為立委在憲法明定山原、平原各三席，這是兩種不同的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:34.668636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:39.060727+08:00","text":"所以說各個原住民族不是變成又不平等了嗎？","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:39.060727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:43.452818+08:00","text":"會不會有這樣的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:43.452818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:47.844909+08:00","text":"對，所以這個部分可能要再多一點討論跟共識。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:47.844909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:15:52.237000+08:00","text":"這不是討論跟共識，這是涉及到整個修憲的問題了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:15:52.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:16:23.739000+08:00","text":"以現在來看，我的意思就是說，針對平埔族群這樣一個修法的工程，你剛剛提到的是方向跟啟動的問題，但是涉及到修憲這個部分，國民黨它本身對修憲是沒有興趣的，我的意思是說，副主委，你從原民的考量觀點來做出發的話，你該怎麼樣去保障這些即將回復原住民族身分的平埔族的權益？","quality":0.496},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:16:23.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:16:24.300000+08:00","text":"我談的是這個、我談的是這個！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:16:30.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:16:44.020000+08:00","text":"是，因為當時在釋憲裡面就提到就平埔族相關權利的保障，是要考量各民族發展的歷史脈絡跟現況來斟酌國家的資源分配，我們會用另外一個法律來訂定。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:16:46.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:16:47.441000+08:00","text":"用另外一個法律來訂定？對。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:16:47.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:16:49.061000+08:00","text":"所以你們都已經規劃好了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:16:50.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:16:58.644000+08:00","text":"目前我們的草案裡面有分甲案、乙案來做一個討論，對我們現有的原住民跟平埔族群來做一個討論。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:16:59.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:17:04.201000+08:00","text":"我就回到鄭天財鄭委員的提案，他這個提案又有創意了。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:17:04.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:17:14.709000+08:00","text":"他說未來行政院長提名原民會主委以後，還要經過全國具有原住民身分的議員、鄉鎮長來召開審查會才能夠同意。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:17:15.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:17:20.113000+08:00","text":"第一個，當然我們所擔心的，恐怕會造成責任政治的混亂。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:17:20.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:17:28.178000+08:00","text":"原民會是行政院轄下的一個部會，跟行政院一同對立法院負責，如果說原民會的首長還要經過全國具有原住民身分的議員、鄉鎮長同意以後才能夠任命，你認為這到底是誰對誰負責？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:17:28.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:17:29.219000+08:00","text":"當然，今天有人會舉例，是不是警政署長要全國警察同意才能夠任命？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:17:29.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:17:29.539000+08:00","text":"體育署長要全國運動員同意才能任命？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:17:29.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:17:29.759000+08:00","text":"不同的命題啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:17:29.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:17:53.424000+08:00","text":"但對於原住民族自治這個部分，我倒認為這樣的一個提案反而範圍、幅度還很小，不夠魄力，但我問的是會產生什麼樣的影響？","quality":0.49},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:17:53.424000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:17:54.424000+08:00","text":"我看你們好像覺得無關緊要？","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:17:53.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:18:00.209000+08:00","text":"這個部分可能會對整個原住民族政策未來在執行上，因為主委是院長提名，總統任命，他有一定的任期跟政務官的身分，但如果又要經過地方民意代表同意，實際上，我們認為這個對於原民政策的責任會有所錯置，除非有整個配套措施。","quality":0.552},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:18:21.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:18:21.786000+08:00","text":"當然會有衝突啦，一定會有衝突啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:18:33.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-06-27T10:19:07.969000+08:00","text":"以責任政治來講的話，誰任命誰要負最終局的責任；但是如果你是地方的民代，不管是議員或者是鄉鎮長，他去認可他，也許是基於自己的政治利益，或者是地方上的一個利益，跟整個施政也許會有衝突的地方，跟原民會的職責也會有衝突的地方，甚至到最後人選都不一定可以產生，到最後受害的還是回到整個原住民的族群，這個就不公平、這個就不公平了！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:19:08.469000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:19:24.469000+08:00","text":"所以我看你們對於今天這樣一個案子，也許你都還沒有自己的看法，所以我才覺得以你的層級來看這一題，其實這個還涉及到人事總處。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:19:24.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:19:33.626143+08:00","text":"這個問題，其實你們要先有答案、要先想好，今天備詢的答案這樣是不行的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:19:33.926143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:19:34.926143+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2024-06-27T10:19:35.226143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:19:36.369000+08:00","text":"要加油啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾副主任委員興華","start":"2024-06-27T10:19:36.669000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:19:38.097571+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-27T10:19:38.397571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:19:40.111857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝莊委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-06-27T10:19:40.411857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-06-27T10:19:44.126143+08:00","text":"下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}