{"error":false,"id":["154564"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154564,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154564","日期":"2024-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-32","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":32,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-08T11:07:23+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-08T11:15:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a4101d3292f94cc1ace876c6524d02f36123a2add11c74db067be5a84947bdd715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:07:23 - 11:15:21","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時7分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請蔡局長跟文化部王次長"],["主席：請蔡局長還有王次長。"],["蔡局長明彥：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：局長好。局長，今天我們這個專案報告也是大家、國人非常關心的中共對臺滲透作為，其中有講到平面媒體之前就先報導有新華社駐臺記者盯梢一事，我想請教一下到底現在……因為連陸委會主委都說找不到爆料者，國安局又講說情資調查已經在立案偵辦了。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在是立案偵辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們有這樣的資訊移交給調查局，調查局已經立案偵辦。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，什麼時候有的資訊？什麼時候掌握的資訊？"],["蔡局長明彥：另外因為也有媒體人提告這位記者，所以檢方也開始立案偵辦。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，什麼時候掌握的資訊？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分我們一開始有了之後，在研判之後……"],["洪委員孟楷：局長，什麼時候掌握的資訊？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為已經在偵辦過程當中，相關的細節……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候掌握的資訊也不能講？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們不建議在這個地方來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以第一不能講什麼時候掌握的資訊？本席只想問，因為個案的部分我不牽扯……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為正在調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是爆料者到底有沒有找到？有沒有爆料者？"],["蔡局長明彥：爆料者跟國安局這部分是沒有關係的，國安局的部分有我們的情資來源，我們既然有這樣情資，就必須要移送到相關的單位來進行調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們有情資，但是這個情資不是從爆料者來，所以跟平面媒體是不同的？"],["蔡局長明彥：不是，這是兩件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以說平面媒體報導的跟你們掌握情資是不同的？"],["蔡局長明彥：不一樣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候掌握的情資？不能講？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們之前就有掌握到了。"],["洪委員孟楷：比平面媒體報導之前，還是之後？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該再稍早一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：稍早一點？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們掌握了情資，但是你們之前不講，那你們做了什麼積極的作為？除了這個調查以外，如果這樣的話，那本席就不禁懷疑有關我們安全的部分，國安局自己說先掌握了情資，但現在講說它是調查當中，不能公開，但是又沒有提醒我們全國的民眾，直到平面媒體爆料之後，原來才知道說：哇，我們的政論節目居然還會被人家盯梢，那國安局之前跟比一個平面媒體還不如？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，因為國安局並沒有司法調查權，第一個，我們不是業管機關，也沒有行政調查權。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：所以只能把這個資訊讓有調查權的調查局來進行……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在問的是說，那你們什麼時候掌握情資，並且你們做了什麼積極的作為，還是就放任我們的安全……如果說今天沒有平面媒體爆料，我們是放任這樣的安全持續被滲透、被侵入，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，所以也必須要透過有司法調查權的機關來釐清過程到底是如何。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然，但是你們做了什麼積極的作為嘛？這是本席說的。","請文化部王次長。"],["王次長時思：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教現在這個所謂新華社的駐臺記者他現在人在哪邊？"],["王次長時思：他已經離境了，如果是報導的這一位的話。"],["洪委員孟楷：他已經離境了。"],["王次長時思：是，他大概一個月前離境。"],["洪委員孟楷：這一位到底跟我們國安局這邊掌握的是不是同一位？"],["王次長時思：我不清楚國安局掌握的是什麼。"],["洪委員孟楷：也不清楚？好，那請教一下，現在他的記者證是文化部這邊發的嘛？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：他什麼時候入臺的？"],["王次長時思：我看一下，入臺是2月23號，因為他是三個月離境，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：2月23日，所以照理講他應該是5月23號離境，323、423、523嘛！"],["王次長時思：對，三個月。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以說他什麼時候離境的？"],["王次長時思：523。"],["洪委員孟楷：他就是523當天嗎？"],["王次長時思：我們目前的資訊是這樣，是5月23號離境。"],["洪委員孟楷：他就是523當天離境？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以說他就在這三個月記者證有效期滿的時候來離境？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們這邊也沒有再去調查說他到底有沒有過去這些行為，有沒有辦法調查？"],["王次長時思：離境之前我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為之前在教育及文化委員會的時候，我們請教文化部部長，他也講說要先做所謂的行政調查，結果現在呢？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，在離境之前，我們並沒有掌握這個訊息，所以在離境之前，我們並沒有詢問他本人，不過在這一件事情經過媒體披露之後……"],["洪委員孟楷：到底他有沒有做盯梢？"],["王次長時思：經過媒體披露之後……"],["洪委員孟楷：他有沒有從事我們文化部發給他記者證以外的事情？"],["王次長時思：經過媒體披露之後，我們有請兩個單位來做詢問。"],["洪委員孟楷：哪兩個單位？"],["王次長時思：第一個是邀請單位，因為每個媒體進來都會有一位邀請單位，也是另外一個媒體，另外就是新華社本社還有在臺的駐臺記者，因為這位記者雖然離開了，但是還有其他的記者來，目前為止的詢問當中，這兩位都是否認的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：都是否認？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為上個禮拜本席在教育及文化委員會詢問的時候，有講到是說……"],["王次長時思：還沒有調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個禮拜要公布，對不對？所以你們是今天就講完，還是你們會有更詳細的調查報告？"],["王次長時思：應該是這樣，我們因為在做行政調查，所以我們會跟陸委會把所有行政調查結果總合以後一起對外。"],["洪委員孟楷：一起對外，什麼時候會對外？"],["王次長時思：目前還沒有清楚的日程，不過我們的報告已經在處理當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們的報告已經出來了嘛！對不對？你剛剛已經講了，是否認。"],["王次長時思：我們自己內部的報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在要說，這件事情國人那麼地關心，但是我們的行政機關的動作會不會也太慢了？"],["王次長時思：不過跟委員說明，因為行政調查不是全部，所以的確現在是展開司法調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後我再請教一下，請國安局局長。","局長，現在國安人士說要盤點五個樣態來示警，有可能透過參香、拜拜、聯合祭拜、假學術之名的方式來做這樣一個蒐集個資或者是說監控，所以我們赴中會有違法偵訊的風險，是這樣嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，只要兩岸的正常合法交流我們都尊重啦，那要特別注意的是，違常和違法的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在臺灣禁兩岸觀光，下一步是不是宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流、地方交流也要禁？"],["蔡局長明彥：這可能過度延伸，政府目前沒有做這樣的宣示。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，但是你們現在講的是說這一些學術交流、宗教交流也都有可能被滲透、示警。"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛第一個部分跟委員說明的是，只要是合法的、正常的，這都尊重，沒有問題，現在主要是針對交流過程當中，假如有違異常的或違法的狀況，那我們要來特別注意，要把它分清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有錯，當然國人都知道這些交流包括學術交流、宗教交流、文化交流，都是屬於正常的範圍之內，所以說也才會做這樣的申請。但是我們國安現在的示警，就是說這一些交流也都可能被滲透，所以你們到底……講等於沒講！你們講等於沒講！到底你們的界線在哪邊？你們的樣態在哪邊？你今天的示警是說都要小心，但是講等於沒講，因為除非你跟我們講說未來宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流也不能做，否則的話，你現在到底是要希望兩岸能夠有多一點交流，還是說不要交流？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，媒體的示警並不是從我們國安局出去的，我只能夠針對委員提到媒體有這樣的報導，來提供一些我們的觀點，也就是說在交流過程當中，可能特別要注意一下中國有沒有一些統戰的樣態，以及交流過程當中，避免違反我們的相關的法律規範，只是再提醒。"],["洪委員孟楷：我最後一個問題，在本席的選區淡水河口，之前快艇闖入河口快一個月了，請教我們現在查明的狀況怎麼樣，有沒有懲處？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為這個部分應該是士檢正在偵辦當中，我們尊重檢方的辦案。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們有沒有相關行政機關的懲處？"],["蔡局長明彥：有關懲處，我記得在第一時間，海巡署就有對外進行一些懲處名單的公布。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以國安單位這邊掌握就是海巡署懲處就夠了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，主要是海巡署針對整個過程當中，有失職的部分來做檢討跟懲處。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：另外，我們有針對一些跨部會怎麼樣精進、策進的機制，國安會有召開專案在處理，上次也跟委員有報告過。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請葉元之委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.90846875,"end":3.7772187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.11471875,"end":4.1822187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王次長時思","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":4.334093750000001,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.334093750000001,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"王次長時思","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":9.0422187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局長好 局長我想今天我們這個專案報告也是大家國人非常關心中共對台滲透作為那其中就是有講到是說平面媒體之前就先報導是說有新華社駐台記者丁少的一事那我想請教一下到底現在因為連陸委會主委都說找不到爆料者"},{"start":34.702,"end":58.992,"text":"那國安局又講是說情資調查已經在立案偵辦了對所以現在是立案偵辦對,我們有這樣的資訊移交給調查局調查局已經立案偵辦好,什麼時候有的資訊?另外因為什麼時候掌握的資訊?另外因為也有媒體人提告這位記者所以檢方也開始立案偵辦對,那什麼時候掌握的資訊?資訊的部分我們一開始有的資訊局長,什麼時候掌握的資訊?因為已經在偵辦過程當中"},{"start":61.174,"end":73.333,"text":"什麼時候掌握資訊也不能講對我們不建議在這個地方來討論所以第一不能講什麼時候掌握資訊那本席只想問因為個案的部分我不牽涉但是爆料者到底有沒有找到"},{"start":74.315,"end":96.022,"text":"有沒有爆料者?對,爆料者這跟國安局這部分是沒有關係的,國安局部分有我們的情資來源,那我們既然有這樣的情資,就必須要移送到相關的單位來進行調查。所以你們有情資,但是這個情資不是從爆料者來,所以跟平面媒體是不同的?兩件事,這是兩件事情。是,所以說平面媒體報導的,跟你們掌握情資是不同的?而不一樣的。那什麼時候掌握情資?不能講。"},{"start":96.562,"end":123.998,"text":"對我們之前就有掌握到比平面媒體報導之前還是之後應該是稍早一點稍早一點對所以你們掌握了情資但是你們之前不講那你們做了什麼積極的作為除了說這調查以外如果說這樣的話那本席就不禁懷疑我們的一個安全的部分國安局自己說先掌握了情資但現在講是說他是這個調查當中不能公開但是又沒有提醒我們全國的民眾"},{"start":124.998,"end":141.385,"text":"直到平面媒體爆料之後原來才知道說我們的政論節目居然還會被人家盯哨那國安局之前比一個平面媒體還不如跟委員說明一下因為國安局並沒有司法調查權第一個我們不是業管機關也沒有行政調查權本身現在問的是說那你們什麼時候掌握情資並且你們做了什麼積極的作為還是就放任"},{"start":148.148,"end":149.008,"text":"請教現在這一個所謂新華社的駐台記者"},{"start":172.199,"end":194.729,"text":"那他現在人在哪邊他已經離境了離境了如果是報導的這一位的話他已經離境了那這一位到底跟我們國安局這邊掌握的是不是同一位我不清楚國安局掌握的是什麼好那請教一下你們現在他的記者證是文化部這邊發的嗎是他什麼時候發什麼時候入台的他是我看一下"},{"start":197.584,"end":211.797,"text":"五月二十三號 入台二月二十三號因為他三個月離境所以說他照理講他應該是五月二十三離境三二三、四二三、五二三嗎對,三個月所以說他是什麼時候離境的五二三他就是五二三當天嗎"},{"start":214.246,"end":236.258,"text":"我們目前的資訊是這樣是5月23號離境他就523當天離境所以說他就在他三個月的這個記者證有效期滿的時候來離境所以我們這邊也沒有再去跟他調查說他到底有沒有過去這些行為有沒有辦法調查因為之前在教育文化委員會的時候我們請教文化部部長他也講是說他要先做這個所謂的行政調查"},{"start":238.405,"end":247.602,"text":"跟委員說明在離境之前我們並沒有掌握這個訊息所以在離境之前我們並沒有詢問他本人不過在這一件事情經過媒體披露之後"},{"start":251.007,"end":276.06,"text":"他有沒有從事我們文化部發給他記者證以外的事情我們經過媒體披露之後我們有請兩個單位來做詢問哪兩個單位第一個是邀請單位因為媒體進來都會有一位邀請單位也是另外一個媒體那另外就是新華社本社還有在台的駐台記者因為這位記者雖然離開了但是還有其他的記者來那在目前為止的詢問當中這兩位大概都是否認的狀況都是否認是因為"},{"start":278.781,"end":297.587,"text":"上個禮拜本席在教育文化委員會詢問的時候然後有講到是說這個禮拜要公佈嘛對不對所以你們是今天就講了還是說你們會有更詳細的這個調查報告應該是這樣我們因為在做行政調查所以呢我們會跟委會把所有行政調查結果總和以來以後一起對外一起對外什麼時候會對外"},{"start":298.787,"end":315.842,"text":"目前還沒有清楚的日程,不過我們的報告已經在處理當中。所以你們已經報告出來了嘛,對不對?你剛剛已經講了,是否認。但是本席現在要說,這一件事情國人那麼的關心,但是我們的行政機關的這個動作,會不會也太慢?最後我再請教一下國安局局長。來,我們請國安局局長。"},{"start":320.868,"end":336.985,"text":"局長現在國安人士說盤點五個樣態來示警說可能透過參香、拜拜、聯合祭拜、假學術之名的方式來做這樣子的一個收集個資或者是說監控所以說我們腹中會有這個違法偵訊的風險是這樣嗎?"},{"start":340.301,"end":360.586,"text":"對,就假如兩岸的正常合法交流我們都尊重那要特別注意的是所以現在台灣進兩岸觀光那下一步是不是要宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流、地方交流也要進行政府目前沒有做這樣的宣示但是你們現在講是說這一些學術交流、宗教交流也都有可能被滲透"},{"start":361.306,"end":361.566,"text":"沒有錯啊"},{"start":376.557,"end":395.49,"text":"當然國人都知道是說這些交流學術交流、宗教交流、文化交流這都是屬於正常的範圍之內啊所以說也才會做這樣的申請啊但是我們國安現在的一個市井就是說這一些交流也都可能被滲透啊所以你們到底講等於沒講嗎?你們講等於沒講等於是你們到底你們界線在哪邊?"},{"start":396.511,"end":412.157,"text":"你們的樣態在哪邊你今天的示警是講是說都要小心但是講得也沒講因為除非你跟我們講說未來宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流也不能做否則的話你現在到底是要希望兩岸能夠有多一點交流還是說不要交流"},{"start":412.902,"end":413.963,"text":"淡水河口本席選區快艇闖入河口快一個月了"},{"start":438.275,"end":458.809,"text":"請教我們現在查明的狀況怎麼樣?有沒有懲處?對,因為這部分應該是事檢正在偵辦當中,我們尊重那個檢方的辦案。那我們有沒有相關行政機關的懲處?懲處我記得在第一時間海巡署就有對外進行一些懲處。所以國安單位這邊掌握就是海巡署懲處就夠了嗎?對對,主要是海巡署針對整個過程當中有失職的部分來做檢討跟懲處。"},{"start":460.35,"end":460.871,"text":"接下來請葉元之委員上台諮詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:07:24.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:07:24.957000+08:00","text":"主席，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:07:24.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:07:30.081000+08:00","text":"麻煩請蔡局長跟文化部王次長","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-07-08T11:07:30.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:07:31.642000+08:00","text":"請蔡局長還有王次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:07:31.642000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:07:36.692000+08:00","text":"洪委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:07:36.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:07:36.952000+08:00","text":"局長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:07:37.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:03.725000+08:00","text":"局長，今天我們這個專案報告也是大家、國人非常關心的中共對臺滲透作為，其中有講到平面媒體之前就先報導有新華社駐臺記者盯梢一事，我想請教一下到底現在……因為連陸委會主委都說找不到爆料者，國安局又講說情資調查已經在立案偵辦了。對。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:03.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:05.425000+08:00","text":"所以現在是立案偵辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:05.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:09.247000+08:00","text":"對，我們有這樣的資訊移交給調查局，調查局已經立案偵辦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:09.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:10.668000+08:00","text":"好，什麼時候有的資訊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:11.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:12.448000+08:00","text":"什麼時候掌握的資訊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:12.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:16.170000+08:00","text":"另外因為也有媒體人提告這位記者，所以檢方也開始立案偵辦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:16.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:17.891000+08:00","text":"對，什麼時候掌握的資訊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:18.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:19.331000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們一開始有了之後，在研判之後……","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:19.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:21.472000+08:00","text":"局長，什麼時候掌握的資訊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:21.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:21.972000+08:00","text":"因為已經在偵辦過程當中，相關的細節……","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:24.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:26.077000+08:00","text":"什麼時候掌握的資訊也不能講？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:26.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:27.620000+08:00","text":"對，我們不建議在這個地方來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:27.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:30.344000+08:00","text":"所以第一不能講什麼時候掌握的資訊？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:30.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:34.330000+08:00","text":"本席只想問，因為個案的部分我不牽扯……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:34.330000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:35.330000+08:00","text":"對，因為正在調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:34.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:36.313000+08:00","text":"但是爆料者到底有沒有找到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:37.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:37.875000+08:00","text":"有沒有爆料者？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:38.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:46.798000+08:00","text":"爆料者跟國安局這部分是沒有關係的，國安局的部分有我們的情資來源，我們既然有這樣情資，就必須要移送到相關的單位來進行調查。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:46.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:52.120000+08:00","text":"所以你們有情資，但是這個情資不是從爆料者來，所以跟平面媒體是不同的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:53.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:53.580000+08:00","text":"不是，這是兩件事情。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:53.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:56.801000+08:00","text":"所以說平面媒體報導的跟你們掌握情資是不同的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:56.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:57.321000+08:00","text":"不一樣的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:57.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:58.922000+08:00","text":"什麼時候掌握的情資？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:58.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:08:59.022000+08:00","text":"不能講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:08:59.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:00.543000+08:00","text":"對，我們之前就有掌握到了。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:00.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:03.304000+08:00","text":"比平面媒體報導之前，還是之後？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:04.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:05.585000+08:00","text":"應該再稍早一點。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:05.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:06.866000+08:00","text":"稍早一點？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:06.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:12.169000+08:00","text":"所以你們掌握了情資，但是你們之前不講，那你們做了什麼積極的作為？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:12.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:37.142000+08:00","text":"除了這個調查以外，如果這樣的話，那本席就不禁懷疑有關我們安全的部分，國安局自己說先掌握了情資，但現在講說它是調查當中，不能公開，但是又沒有提醒我們全國的民眾，直到平面媒體爆料之後，原來才知道說：哇，我們的政論節目居然還會被人家盯梢，那國安局之前跟比一個平面媒體還不如？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:37.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:42.824000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明一下，因為國安局並沒有司法調查權，第一個，我們不是業管機關，也沒有行政調查權。是嘛！","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:42.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:43.824000+08:00","text":"所以只能把這個資訊讓有調查權的調查局來進行……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:42.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:44.365000+08:00","text":"本席現在問的是說，那你們什麼時候掌握情資，並且你們做了什麼積極的作為，還是就放任我們的安全……如果說今天沒有平面媒體爆料，我們是放任這樣的安全持續被滲透、被侵入，是不是？","quality":0.474},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:44.365000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:45.721600+08:00","text":"沒有，所以也必須要透過有司法調查權的機關來釐清過程到底是如何。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:45.721600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:47.078200+08:00","text":"當然，但是你們做了什麼積極的作為嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:47.078200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:48.434800+08:00","text":"這是本席說的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:48.434800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:49.791400+08:00","text":"請文化部王次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:49.791400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:09:51.148000+08:00","text":"洪委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:09:51.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:17.380000+08:00","text":"請教現在這個所謂新華社的駐臺記者他現在人在哪邊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:17.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:20.401000+08:00","text":"他已經離境了，如果是報導的這一位的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:20.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:20.982000+08:00","text":"他已經離境了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:20.982000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:21.982000+08:00","text":"是，他大概一個月前離境。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:21.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:24.963000+08:00","text":"這一位到底跟我們國安局這邊掌握的是不是同一位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:25.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:27.805000+08:00","text":"我不清楚國安局掌握的是什麼。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:27.805000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:28.805000+08:00","text":"也不清楚？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:27.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:32.907000+08:00","text":"好，那請教一下，現在他的記者證是文化部這邊發的嘛？是。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:33.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:35.028000+08:00","text":"他什麼時候入臺的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:37.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:44.828000+08:00","text":"我看一下，入臺是2月23號，因為他是三個月離境，對。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:45.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:48.351000+08:00","text":"2月23日，所以照理講他應該是5月23號離境，323、423、523嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:50.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:50.614000+08:00","text":"對，三個月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:51.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:52.375000+08:00","text":"所以說他什麼時候離境的？523。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:54.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:54.797000+08:00","text":"他就是523當天嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:10:57.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:10:59.968000+08:00","text":"我們目前的資訊是這樣，是5月23號離境。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:00.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:01.328000+08:00","text":"他就是523當天離境？是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:01.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:06.331000+08:00","text":"所以說他就在這三個月記者證有效期滿的時候來離境？是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:06.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:12.294000+08:00","text":"所以你們這邊也沒有再去調查說他到底有沒有過去這些行為，有沒有辦法調查？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:12.294000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:13.294000+08:00","text":"離境之前我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:12.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:19.238000+08:00","text":"因為之前在教育及文化委員會的時候，我們請教文化部部長，他也講說要先做所謂的行政調查，結果現在呢？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:21.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:30.582000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，在離境之前，我們並沒有掌握這個訊息，所以在離境之前，我們並沒有詢問他本人，不過在這一件事情經過媒體披露之後……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:30.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:32.294500+08:00","text":"到底他有沒有做盯梢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:32.294500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:34.007000+08:00","text":"經過媒體披露之後……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:34.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:37.989000+08:00","text":"他有沒有從事我們文化部發給他記者證以外的事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:39.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:43.092000+08:00","text":"經過媒體披露之後，我們有請兩個單位來做詢問。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:43.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:43.352000+08:00","text":"哪兩個單位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:43.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:58.299000+08:00","text":"第一個是邀請單位，因為每個媒體進來都會有一位邀請單位，也是另外一個媒體，另外就是新華社本社還有在臺的駐臺記者，因為這位記者雖然離開了，但是還有其他的記者來，目前為止的詢問當中，這兩位都是否認的狀況。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:58.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:11:58.940000+08:00","text":"都是否認？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:11:59.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:06.482000+08:00","text":"因為上個禮拜本席在教育及文化委員會詢問的時候，有講到是說……","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:06.482000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:07.482000+08:00","text":"還沒有調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:06.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:08.683000+08:00","text":"這個禮拜要公布，對不對？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:08.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:11.784000+08:00","text":"所以你們是今天就講完，還是你們會有更詳細的調查報告？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:12.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:19.466000+08:00","text":"應該是這樣，我們因為在做行政調查，所以我們會跟陸委會把所有行政調查結果總合以後一起對外。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:20.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:20.567000+08:00","text":"一起對外，什麼時候會對外？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:21.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:25.931000+08:00","text":"目前還沒有清楚的日程，不過我們的報告已經在處理當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:26.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:27.552000+08:00","text":"所以你們的報告已經出來了嘛！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:27.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:28.073000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:28.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:29.954000+08:00","text":"你剛剛已經講了，是否認。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:29.954000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:30.954000+08:00","text":"我們自己內部的報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:30.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:36.020000+08:00","text":"本席現在要說，這件事情國人那麼地關心，但是我們的行政機關的動作會不會也太慢了？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王次長時思","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:36.020000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:37.421000+08:00","text":"不過跟委員說明，因為行政調查不是全部，所以的確現在是展開司法調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:37.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:38.842000+08:00","text":"最後我再請教一下，請國安局局長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:12:43.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:12:59.985000+08:00","text":"局長，現在國安人士說要盤點五個樣態來示警，有可能透過參香、拜拜、聯合祭拜、假學術之名的方式來做這樣一個蒐集個資或者是說監控，所以我們赴中會有違法偵訊的風險，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:03.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:13:07.202000+08:00","text":"對，只要兩岸的正常合法交流我們都尊重啦，那要特別注意的是，違常和違法的狀況。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:07.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:13:14.844000+08:00","text":"所以現在臺灣禁兩岸觀光，下一步是不是宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流、地方交流也要禁？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:15.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:13:17.624000+08:00","text":"這可能過度延伸，政府目前沒有做這樣的宣示。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:17.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:13:23.566000+08:00","text":"是啊，但是你們現在講的是說這一些學術交流、宗教交流也都有可能被滲透、示警。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:23.566000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:13:24.566000+08:00","text":"我剛剛第一個部分跟委員說明的是，只要是合法的、正常的，這都尊重，沒有問題，現在主要是針對交流過程當中，假如有違異常的或違法的狀況，那我們要來特別注意，要把它分清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:24.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:13:47.803000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，當然國人都知道這些交流包括學術交流、宗教交流、文化交流，都是屬於正常的範圍之內，所以說也才會做這樣的申請。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:47.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:13:55.869000+08:00","text":"但是我們國安現在的示警，就是說這一些交流也都可能被滲透，所以你們到底……講等於沒講！","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:55.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:13:56.489000+08:00","text":"你們講等於沒講！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:57.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:13:58.490000+08:00","text":"到底你們的界線在哪邊？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:13:59.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:14:00.872000+08:00","text":"你們的樣態在哪邊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:14:00.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:14:15.137000+08:00","text":"你今天的示警是說都要小心，但是講等於沒講，因為除非你跟我們講說未來宗教交流、學術交流、文化交流也不能做，否則的話，你現在到底是要希望兩岸能夠有多一點交流，還是說不要交流？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:14:15.137000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:14:16.137000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明一下，媒體的示警並不是從我們國安局出去的，我只能夠針對委員提到媒體有這樣的報導，來提供一些我們的觀點，也就是說在交流過程當中，可能特別要注意一下中國有沒有一些統戰的樣態，以及交流過程當中，避免違反我們的相關的法律規範，只是再提醒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:14:15.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:14:43.897000+08:00","text":"我最後一個問題，在本席的選區淡水河口，之前快艇闖入河口快一個月了，請教我們現在查明的狀況怎麼樣，有沒有懲處？","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:14:43.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:14:48.240000+08:00","text":"對，因為這個部分應該是士檢正在偵辦當中，我們尊重檢方的辦案。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:14:48.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:14:50.962000+08:00","text":"我們有沒有相關行政機關的懲處？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:14:50.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:14:54.504000+08:00","text":"有關懲處，我記得在第一時間，海巡署就有對外進行一些懲處名單的公布。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-07-08T11:14:54.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:14:57.886000+08:00","text":"所以國安單位這邊掌握就是海巡署懲處就夠了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:14:57.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:15:01.809000+08:00","text":"對，主要是海巡署針對整個過程當中，有失職的部分來做檢討跟懲處。謝謝。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:15:01.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:15:02.809000+08:00","text":"另外，我們有針對一些跨部會怎麼樣精進、策進的機制，國安會有召開專案在處理，上次也跟委員有報告過。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2024-07-08T11:15:02.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-07-08T11:15:03.809000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-07-08T11:15:03.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-07-08T11:15:03.871000+08:00","text":"接下來請葉元之委員上臺質詢。","quality":0.923}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}