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24.4這個已經是超標很嚴重了吧沒有沒有沒有我們如果說是跟這個WHO的標準來看的話WHO的標準是多少"},{"start":125.18,"end":136.485,"text":"他建議是5但是其實是5我們24欸那個5很難做得到啊委員我們如果在花蓮也只不過只有7到8左右欸是是5很難做到對台灣來講很難做到對其他國家來說對不對有到7的8的很接近的這個其實別的國家都做得到為什麼台灣做不到"},{"start":147.288,"end":168.806,"text":"其實我們在臺灣在鄰近的亞洲的國家我們比韓國好比日本差一點點但是我們算是已經在前面的我們來看看全球最污染最嚴重的國家這以2024年來講我們是排名54名排名54名意思是說其實我們空氣污染是很糟糕的排名第一名是最嚴重排名54名然後呢南韓是多少59"},{"start":172.629,"end":176.85,"text":"新加坡94日本108我們如果要效法這個德國他們已經進入了無核家園人家也是103空氣品質比我們好得多吧你看日本他平均的8.69跟WHO的數字是非常接近的所以我們不要在那邊自欺欺人說我們現在的17.5或是平均20我們的空氣品質很好"},{"start":197.557,"end":204.603,"text":"包委員這個是IQ Air這個是瑞士的一家做空氣淨淨機還有賣儀器的公司做的所以它其實跟我們量測的方法不一樣所以這個數據僅供參考僅供參考所以我們量測的數據也是僅供參考因為我們跟其他的國家相比我們也是不好啊它基本上它是拿著這個自動全世界最權威的數據我們來看"},{"start":219.735,"end":221.356,"text":"對 你可以講說 這個不是最權威的數據我知道 我說請您可以提供一個最權威的數據全世界 有哪個國際組織提供最權威的數據來看看我們台灣的國際排名在最嚴重污染的國際排名裡面 我們是排第幾位麻煩請您會後"},{"start":240.57,"end":259.585,"text":"要提供給我 好不好 一個禮拜之內可以還是在一天其實就給我 委員再給我們多一點時間因為要蒐集各國最新的要花一點時間好不好 一個月好不好應該是有些國際組織或是學術研究機構就有做啊報委員那個方法學不一樣我們是採用國際上最嚴格的所以你們都是找最有利於台灣的方法學嘛委員你不能這樣說我們是看數據來做事"},{"start":261.827,"end":285.245,"text":"看數據嘛 所以嘛這是很清楚的數據嘛你在怎麼批評人家說這個是屬於民間的組織這個是賣什麼空氣清淨機但他做出來的數據跟我們的有差別嗎你看看我們今天來我們看我們今天24.4欸人家還對我們客氣了勒這是每天 這一天一天的如果我們看的是整年的不一樣所以我現在是今天呢所以一整年我們也沒有比較好來我們往下面看"},{"start":291.569,"end":314.43,"text":"那麼本席現在這邊很關心的問題就是其實我們知道空氣污染與肺腺癌的關係是息息相關那台灣的肺腺癌的人數已經是超過這個前10年要多得多那麼我們這邊就不說了這個事已經是正相關這是大家眾所皆知的事情那接下來我想要講的就是說其實"},{"start":315.471,"end":343.197,"text":"在其他國家也有在談是不是可以放空污假您覺得台灣有沒有必要放空污假這個目前我們台灣的嚴重空污的事件並沒有像這個印度這麼的嚴重印度那麼嚴重其實我們現在跟教育部合作有空污期他就可以適當的有一些及時的反應所以我們要到空污假的確目前還有一段的還有一段路要走目前來看的話因為他們是的確是非常嚴重"},{"start":343.937,"end":347.741,"text":"是 所以部長您認為我們到目前為止還不需要放空屋價那我們的情況還沒有那麼嚴重我們要跟那個第一名前幾名的印度比嗎我們可以跟其他的國家比嗎好 委員北京 上海 PM2.5都超過平均年平均值是35那這個印度的這個大概都兩三百以上我們台灣最嚴重的頂多五六十就很嚴重了"},{"start":367.358,"end":372.562,"text":"我們要跟好的學習見賢思其焉我們為什麼不去跟日本不去跟德國不去跟法國其他一些國家學對不對我們事實上我們的空氣污染就很嚴重啊就從中南部每次我開這個開車經過台中地區整個天氣就是霧濛濛的他就是他不管是天氣好天氣不好他都是這樣啊沒有這個你看到是藍天啊"},{"start":395.868,"end":424.087,"text":"那個是非常非常少數的這是人家記者拍的所以我只是舉例剛剛還沒有講到就是台電的問題對不對你台電現在因為馬上因應核能核三廠二號機五月就要停止運轉剩下的那個3.5% 4%的電會要用什麼方式來因應是不是台中火力發電廠還要全要火力全開了"},{"start":427.1,"end":442.632,"text":"這個到時候我們的空污會不會更嚴重報告委員燃氣基本上的空污比燃煤少很多而且它相對的很乾淨所以火力發電是燃煤跟燃氣是不一樣的所以部長我發現您的有些訊息也是錯誤的報告委員我沒有錯誤產生出來的污染物質它還是比核電要多得多所以委員你的意思是這個電廠可以蓋核電嗎"},{"start":454.335,"end":480.198,"text":"我不是說這個電廠蓋核電我有說台中火力發電廠改成核電嗎我的意思講說核三廠和其他的廠現在我們在談核電研議的問題請問部長您同不同意您支不支持核電廠研議報告委員研議需要法規還有後面的核廢料的處理研議的法規是我們立法委員負責從您當環境部長的角度來看您支持核電研議嗎我們要打造一個更乾淨的家園"},{"start":483.92,"end":507.396,"text":"我現在要問您從環境部的角度來看怎麼樣能夠提升改善環境的空氣品質我們支持低碳的能源 污染少的能源只是低碳您的目標就這麼小 低碳我們有可能淨零排碳嗎要努力 非常努力要努力 非常努力我看如果在你們民進黨執政底下大概不可能完成好 OK 今天質詢到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝讓他們努力一下"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:43:45.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:43:47.491000+08:00","text":"召委好，有請部長。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-03-17T12:43:47.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:43:51.296000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:43:51.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:43:51.657000+08:00","text":"翁委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:43:57.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:44:32.287000+08:00","text":"部長，今天本席看到會議的主題，我直覺這個議題「氣象變異導致國內空品惡化」似乎就是想要護航現在民進黨政府的無能，在整個能源政策上面有很大的錯誤，所以導致國內的空氣品質嚴重惡化，而竟然把這樣的因素歸咎於氣候變遷，氣候變遷會造成空污品質的惡化嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:44:39.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:44:45.769000+08:00","text":"報告委員，那個是氣象，氣象是短的，例如這幾天的天氣造成混合層的變低，那是氣象，跟氣候談的不一樣。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:44:46.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:44:46.690000+08:00","text":"所以我們今天談的是一個短的問題，還是談一個長的問題？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:44:46.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:44:48.551000+08:00","text":"因為某一個突發因素，譬如這幾天的空氣品質是因為改吹東風，擴散條件不佳，這是氣象的問題，這是天氣的問題。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:44:48.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:44:50.053000+08:00","text":"氣候變遷指的是長的問題，10年、20年，所以這兩個是不一樣的。好。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:45:01.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:45:11.804000+08:00","text":"所以氣象變異您認為這也是扮演重要的關鍵因素，為什麼臺灣城市的空氣品質會如此糟糕？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:45:12.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:45:24.127000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下今天的空氣品質，剛剛前面的委員有問過，其實今天的空氣品質嚴格來說是不好，這邊寫84，普通，可是我們看細懸浮微粒，就是PM2.5，是24.4，這已經是超標很嚴重了吧？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:45:24.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:45:24.307000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有。沒有？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:45:24.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:45:25.967000+08:00","text":"我們如果是跟WHO的標準來看的話，WHO的標準是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:45:39.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:45:41.741000+08:00","text":"它建議是5，但是……是5？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:45:42.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:45:42.622000+08:00","text":"我們24耶！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:45:42.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:45:43.642000+08:00","text":"那個5很難做得到。是嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:45:44.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:45:46.824000+08:00","text":"如果在花蓮，也只不過只有7到8左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:45:47.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:45:50.465000+08:00","text":"是，5很難做到，對臺灣來講很難做到，對其他國家來說，有到7的、有到8的，也有很接近的，這個其實別的國家都做得到，為什麼臺灣做不到？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:01.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:46:08.514000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實在鄰近的亞洲國家，我們比韓國好，比日本差一點點，但是我們算是已經在前面了。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:08.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:46:22.786000+08:00","text":"我們來看看全球污染最嚴重的國家，以2024年來講，我們是排名第54名，排名第54名的意思是說，其實我們空氣污染是很糟糕的，排名第1名是最嚴重的，我們排名第54名，然後南韓是多少？59。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:26.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:46:28.189000+08:00","text":"新加坡是第94名，日本是第108名，我們如果要效法德國，他們已經進入了無核家園，人家也是排第103，空氣品質比我們好得多吧！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:28.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:46:30.830000+08:00","text":"你看日本，平均數值是8.69，跟WHO的數值是非常接近的，所以我們不要在那邊自欺欺人，說我們現在的17.5或是平均20，我們的空氣品質很好。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:51.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:46:56.461000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個是IQAir做的，這是瑞士一家做空氣清淨機和賣儀器的公司做的，它其實跟我們量測的方法不一樣，所以這個數據僅供參考。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:56.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:46:56.701000+08:00","text":"僅供參考，所以我們量測的數據……12.8。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:56.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:46:56.901000+08:00","text":"也僅供參考嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:56.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:46:57.962000+08:00","text":"因為我們跟其他的國家相比，我們也是不好啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:57.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:46:58.283000+08:00","text":"它基本上是拿著自動……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:46:58.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:14.036000+08:00","text":"還是你可以提供一個全世界最權威的數據讓我們來看，你可以講說沒有錯……","quality":0.581},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:14.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:14.276000+08:00","text":"這不是最權威的數據、這不是最權威的數據。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:14.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:35.711000+08:00","text":"我知道，我說請您可以提供一個最權威的數據，就是世界有哪個國際組織提供最權威的數據，來看看臺灣在最嚴重污染的國際排名裡面是排第幾位，麻煩請您會後要提供給我，好不好？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:35.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:37.693000+08:00","text":"一個禮拜之內可以，還是3天可以給我們？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:37.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:41.716000+08:00","text":"委員，再給我們多一點時間，因為我們蒐集各國最新的數據要花一點時間，好不好？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:42.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:42.737000+08:00","text":"一個月好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:42.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:46.039000+08:00","text":"應該是有一些國際組織或學術研究機構就有做。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:46.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:49.662000+08:00","text":"報告委員，那個方法學不一樣，我們是採用國際上最嚴格的……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:49.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:52.324000+08:00","text":"所以你們就是找最有利於臺灣的方法學嘛。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:52.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:47:53.565000+08:00","text":"委員，你不能這樣說，我們是看數據來做事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:47:55.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:48:06.756000+08:00","text":"看數據，所以這是很清楚的數據嘛，你再怎麼批評人家說這個是屬於民間的組織、這個是賣空氣清淨機的公司，但它做出來的數據跟我們的有差別嗎？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:48:06.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:48:11.079000+08:00","text":"你看看我們今天的空氣品質，24.4耶！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:48:11.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:48:12.180000+08:00","text":"人家還對我們客氣了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:48:13.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:48:15.903000+08:00","text":"這是每天的，是一天一天的，而我們看的是整年的，不一樣。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:48:16.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:48:16.924000+08:00","text":"這是今天啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:48:17.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:48:19.025000+08:00","text":"一整年我們也沒有比較好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:48:26.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:48:46.008000+08:00","text":"本席現在很關心的問題是，其實我們知道空氣污染與肺腺癌的關係是息息相關，臺灣得肺腺癌的人數已經比前10年要多得多，我們這邊就不說了，這個已經是正相關，是大家眾所皆知的事情。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:48:46.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:48:55.472000+08:00","text":"接下來我想要講的是，其實在其他國家也有在談是不是可以放空污假，你覺得臺灣有沒有必要放空污假？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:48:57.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:49:17.177000+08:00","text":"目前臺灣的嚴重空污事件並沒有像印度那麼嚴重，其實我們現在跟教育部合作有空污旗，他們就可以適當地有一些即時的反映，所以我們要到可以放空污假的確目前還有一段路要走，目前來看的話，他們的確是非常嚴重。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:49:17.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:49:19.839000+08:00","text":"是，所以部長，您認為我們到目前為止還不需要放空污假，因為我們的情況沒有那麼嚴重，我們要跟前幾名的印度比嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:49:19.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:49:20.019000+08:00","text":"要跟其他的國家比嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:49:20.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:49:21.721000+08:00","text":"委員，北京、上海的PM2.5的年平均值是35，印度大概都兩、三百以上，臺灣最嚴重的頂多五、六十就很嚴重了。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:49:41.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:49:44.020000+08:00","text":"我們要跟好的學習，見賢思齊焉，我們為什麼不去跟日本、不去跟德國、不去跟法國及其他一些國家學？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:49:44.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:49:44.180000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:49:44.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:49:46.122000+08:00","text":"事實上我們的空氣污染就很嚴重啊，就是從中南部，每一次我開車經過臺中地區，整個天氣就是霧茫茫的，不管天氣好、天氣不好都是這樣啊。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:49:46.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:49:46.362000+08:00","text":"沒有，你看這個是藍天。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:50:09.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:50:14.831000+08:00","text":"那個是非常非常少數的，這是記者拍的，我只是舉例。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:50:15.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:50:32.403000+08:00","text":"剛剛還沒有講到台電的問題，台電現在因為馬上要因應核三廠二號機5月停止運轉，剩下3.5%的電，要用什麼方式來因應？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:50:32.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:50:38.067000+08:00","text":"是不是臺中火力發電廠還要火力全開？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:50:41.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:50:42.741000+08:00","text":"到時候我們的空污會不會更嚴重？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:50:43.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:50:51.728000+08:00","text":"報告委員，基本上燃氣空污比燃煤少很多，而且它相對很乾淨，所以火力發電燃煤跟燃氣是不一樣的。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:50:52.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:50:54.731000+08:00","text":"部長，我發現您的有些訊息也是錯誤的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:50:54.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:50:55.551000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我沒有錯誤；報告委員，我沒有錯誤。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:50:55.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:50:56.132000+08:00","text":"燃氣所產生的污染物質還是比核電要多得多，它可以算是燃氣……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:50:56.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:50:56.632000+08:00","text":"不一樣，所以委員的意思是這個電廠可以蓋核電嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:08.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:13.239000+08:00","text":"我不是說這個電廠蓋核電，我有說臺中火力發電廠要改成核電嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:13.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:18.784000+08:00","text":"我第一次講說核三廠、其他的廠，現在我們在談核電延役的問題，請問部長，您同不同意？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:19.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:20.446000+08:00","text":"您支不支持核電廠延役？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:20.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:25.911000+08:00","text":"報告委員，延役需要法規還有後面的核廢料的處理……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:26.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:32.657000+08:00","text":"您不要講那麼多，延役的法規是我們立法委員負責，從您當環境部長的角度來看，您支持核電延役嗎？","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:32.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:34.198000+08:00","text":"我們要打造一個更乾淨的家園。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:34.198000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:37.920000+08:00","text":"核電延役與否，是經濟部核安會的工作，不是環境部的工作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:37.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:44.244000+08:00","text":"我現在要問你，從環境部的角度來看，怎麼樣能夠提升改善環境的空氣品質。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:44.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:46.586000+08:00","text":"我們支持低碳的能源、污染少的能源。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:47.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:47.947000+08:00","text":"只是低碳？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:48.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:54.371000+08:00","text":"您的目標就這麼小，低碳，我們有可能淨零排碳嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:54.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:55.312000+08:00","text":"要努力，非常努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:55.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:56.452000+08:00","text":"要努力，非常努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:51:57.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:51:59.534000+08:00","text":"我看如果在你們民進黨執政底下，大概不可能完成。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-03-17T12:52:00.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:52:01.135000+08:00","text":"OK，今天質詢到這邊，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（楊委員曜代）","start":"2025-03-17T12:52:01.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-17T12:52:01.376000+08:00","text":"好，讓他們努力一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（楊委員曜代）","start":"2025-03-17T12:52:01.876000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-17T12:52:04.161714+08:00","text":"請劉建國委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1174,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時43分）召委好，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，今天本席看到會議的主題，我直覺這個議題「氣象變異導致國內空品惡化」似乎就是想要護航現在民進黨政府的無能，在整個能源政策上面有很大的錯誤，所以導致國內的空氣品質嚴重惡化，而竟然把這樣的因素歸咎於氣候變遷，氣候變遷會造成空污品質的惡化嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是氣象，氣象是短的，例如這幾天的天氣造成混合層的變低，那是氣象，跟氣候談的不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我們今天談的是一個短的問題，還是談一個長的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：因為某一個突發因素，譬如這幾天的空氣品質是因為改吹東風，擴散條件不佳，這是氣象的問題，這是天氣的問題。氣候變遷指的是長的問題，10年、20年，所以這兩個是不一樣的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。所以氣象變異您認為這也是扮演重要的關鍵因素，為什麼臺灣城市的空氣品質會如此糟糕？我們來看一下今天的空氣品質，剛剛前面的委員有問過，其實今天的空氣品質嚴格來說是不好，這邊寫84，普通，可是我們看細懸浮微粒，就是PM2.5，是24.4，這已經是超標很嚴重了吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有？我們如果是跟WHO的標準來看的話，WHO的標準是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：它建議是5，但是……"],["翁委員曉玲：是5？我們24耶！"],["彭部長啓明：那個5很難做得到。"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果在花蓮，也只不過只有7到8左右。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，5很難做到，對臺灣來講很難做到，對其他國家來說，有到7的、有到8的，也有很接近的，這個其實別的國家都做得到，為什麼臺灣做不到？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實在鄰近的亞洲國家，我們比韓國好，比日本差一點點，但是我們算是已經在前面了。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們來看看全球污染最嚴重的國家，以2024年來講，我們是排名第54名，排名第54名的意思是說，其實我們空氣污染是很糟糕的，排名第1名是最嚴重的，我們排名第54名，然後南韓是多少？59。新加坡是第94名，日本是第108名，我們如果要效法德國，他們已經進入了無核家園，人家也是排第103，空氣品質比我們好得多吧！你看日本，平均數值是8.69，跟WHO的數值是非常接近的，所以我們不要在那邊自欺欺人，說我們現在的17.5或是平均20，我們的空氣品質很好。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是IQAir做的，這是瑞士一家做空氣清淨機和賣儀器的公司做的，它其實跟我們量測的方法不一樣，所以這個數據僅供參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：僅供參考，所以我們量測的數據……"],["彭部長啓明：12.8。"],["翁委員曉玲：也僅供參考嗎？因為我們跟其他的國家相比，我們也是不好啊！"],["彭部長啓明：它基本上是拿著自動……"],["翁委員曉玲：還是你可以提供一個全世界最權威的數據讓我們來看，你可以講說沒有錯……"],["彭部長啓明：這不是最權威的數據、這不是最權威的數據。"],["翁委員曉玲：我知道，我說請您可以提供一個最權威的數據，就是世界有哪個國際組織提供最權威的數據，來看看臺灣在最嚴重污染的國際排名裡面是排第幾位，麻煩請您會後要提供給我，好不好？一個禮拜之內可以，還是3天可以給我們？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，再給我們多一點時間，因為我們蒐集各國最新的數據要花一點時間，好不好？一個月好不好？"],["翁委員曉玲：應該是有一些國際組織或學術研究機構就有做。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個方法學不一樣，我們是採用國際上最嚴格的……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們就是找最有利於臺灣的方法學嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不能這樣說，我們是看數據來做事。"],["翁委員曉玲：看數據，所以這是很清楚的數據嘛，你再怎麼批評人家說這個是屬於民間的組織、這個是賣空氣清淨機的公司，但它做出來的數據跟我們的有差別嗎？你看看我們今天的空氣品質，24.4耶！人家還對我們客氣了。"],["彭部長啓明：這是每天的，是一天一天的，而我們看的是整年的，不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是今天啊！一整年我們也沒有比較好。","本席現在很關心的問題是，其實我們知道空氣污染與肺腺癌的關係是息息相關，臺灣得肺腺癌的人數已經比前10年要多得多，我們這邊就不說了，這個已經是正相關，是大家眾所皆知的事情。接下來我想要講的是，其實在其他國家也有在談是不是可以放空污假，你覺得臺灣有沒有必要放空污假？"],["彭部長啓明：目前臺灣的嚴重空污事件並沒有像印度那麼嚴重，其實我們現在跟教育部合作有空污旗，他們就可以適當地有一些即時的反映，所以我們要到可以放空污假的確目前還有一段路要走，目前來看的話，他們的確是非常嚴重。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以部長，您認為我們到目前為止還不需要放空污假，因為我們的情況沒有那麼嚴重，我們要跟前幾名的印度比嗎？要跟其他的國家比嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，北京、上海的PM2.5的年平均值是35，印度大概都兩、三百以上，臺灣最嚴重的頂多五、六十就很嚴重了。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們要跟好的學習，見賢思齊焉，我們為什麼不去跟日本、不去跟德國、不去跟法國及其他一些國家學？對不對？事實上我們的空氣污染就很嚴重啊，就是從中南部，每一次我開車經過臺中地區，整個天氣就是霧茫茫的，不管天氣好、天氣不好都是這樣啊。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，你看這個是藍天。"],["翁委員曉玲：那個是非常非常少數的，這是記者拍的，我只是舉例。剛剛還沒有講到台電的問題，台電現在因為馬上要因應核三廠二號機5月停止運轉，剩下3.5%的電，要用什麼方式來因應？是不是臺中火力發電廠還要火力全開？到時候我們的空污會不會更嚴重？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，基本上燃氣空污比燃煤少很多，而且它相對很乾淨，所以火力發電燃煤跟燃氣是不一樣的。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，我發現您的有些訊息也是錯誤的。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我沒有錯誤；報告委員，我沒有錯誤。"],["翁委員曉玲：燃氣所產生的污染物質還是比核電要多得多，它可以算是燃氣……"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣，所以委員的意思是這個電廠可以蓋核電嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：我不是說這個電廠蓋核電，我有說臺中火力發電廠要改成核電嗎？我第一次講說核三廠、其他的廠，現在我們在談核電延役的問題，請問部長，您同不同意？您支不支持核電廠延役？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，延役需要法規還有後面的核廢料的處理……"],["翁委員曉玲：您不要講那麼多，延役的法規是我們立法委員負責，從您當環境部長的角度來看，您支持核電延役嗎？我們要打造一個更乾淨的家園。"],["彭部長啓明：核電延役與否，是經濟部核安會的工作，不是環境部的工作。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在要問你，從環境部的角度來看，怎麼樣能夠提升改善環境的空氣品質。"],["彭部長啓明：我們支持低碳的能源、污染少的能源。"],["翁委員曉玲：只是低碳？您的目標就這麼小，低碳，我們有可能淨零排碳嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：要努力，非常努力。"],["翁委員曉玲：要努力，非常努力。我看如果在你們民進黨執政底下，大概不可能完成。OK，今天質詢到這邊，謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員曜代）：好，讓他們努力一下。","請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}