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12:49:22","會議時間":"2025-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案19案。【報告事項】【如經復議則不予處理】\n三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於勞動部主管部分。\n【3月17日、19日及20日三天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":11.134718750000001,"end":12.180968750000002,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":20.820968750000002,"end":21.242843750000002,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":21.664718750000002,"end":22.91346875,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":23.031593750000003,"end":23.622218750000002,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":24.06096875,"end":24.769718750000003,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":31.637843750000002,"end":32.17784375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":32.78534375,"end":55.88721875,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":57.102218750000006,"end":58.51971875,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":59.07659375,"end":61.320968750000006,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":61.439093750000005,"end":78.44909375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":79.59659375000001,"end":95.40846875000001,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":96.08346875000001,"end":97.19721875,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":97.19721875,"end":136.85346875000002,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":138.05159375,"end":138.55784375000002,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":138.84471875,"end":151.09596875,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":151.53471875,"end":170.02971875,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":170.02971875,"end":170.51909375000002,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":170.06346875,"end":170.45159375,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":170.51909375000002,"end":170.53596875000002,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":170.53596875000002,"end":170.68784375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":170.68784375,"end":170.97471875000002,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":170.97471875000002,"end":174.51846875,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":175.07534375,"end":181.45409375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":181.45409375,"end":181.52159375000002,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":181.63971875000001,"end":184.54221875000002,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":184.87971875000002,"end":204.23534375000003,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":191.89971875,"end":192.30471875,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":201.94034375,"end":203.25659375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":203.94846875000002,"end":210.47909375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":211.37346875,"end":214.90034375000002,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":213.82034375,"end":215.28846875000002,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":215.82846875,"end":227.42159375000003,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":227.97846875000002,"end":229.31159375000001,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":230.00346875000002,"end":289.50471875,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":290.12909375000004,"end":293.23409375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":293.47034375000004,"end":303.07221875000005,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":303.46034375,"end":342.00284375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":342.49221875,"end":343.03221875,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":343.20096875,"end":347.75721875000005,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":348.04409375,"end":356.44784375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"牛委員煦庭","start":356.81909375000004,"end":364.54784375,"speaker_score":0.928},{"sp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謝謝主席 洪部長有請來請部長"},{"start":31.653,"end":55.471,"text":"你委員好部長無安辛苦了這個很多委員今天在勞動部的業務報告裡面質詢都提到台灣工時過長的問題那部長知不知道這個兩天前內政委員會我們在做這個節日紀念日實施這個條例的審查的時候劉世芳部長講說還我七天假是特定團體綁架勞工的假議題您認同這樣的說法嗎我沒有特別看到"},{"start":59.107,"end":76.844,"text":"你沒有特別看到你的次長也在旁邊啦這個你們要好好跟進一下這個題目因為雖然他是內政部主責這之前前一個會期本席在那邊質詢的時候你講說你要尊重主管機關這我當然理解但這個畢竟跟勞工的權益是有關的我希望部長回去了解一下這件事情啦那你現在聽到我是如實轉述喔你覺得這樣說法妥當嗎"},{"start":79.779,"end":94.985,"text":"我想應該是說作為行政部門比較是希望說我們在這個制度面的討論那怎麼樣子在一個公平性一致性的一些原則下面好好討論我猜因為我對不起我真的是沒有看到"},{"start":96.899,"end":118.381,"text":"這個訊息啦剛剛也有很多委員提醒你因為你曾經也跟這個社運界嘛跟很多的團體其實都有很好的關係嘛你也曾經幫他們講話那我今天就不在這個題目上再多逼問你了但是請你好好瞭解因為我認為這樣子的說法對很多的勞工團體特別是現在都還在積極爭取要讓勞工工時下降的這些團體來講這樣的說法是非常非常不公平的是讓人家非常傷心的請部長好好瞭解一下"},{"start":119.102,"end":136.699,"text":"那我就再問啦那這個現在大家在談節日與紀念日實施條例這個修正當然其實到最後就要進入深水區也就是說如果增加國定假日要增加幾天那剛剛委員有幾位委員都有問到這個問題你講說用什麼開放的態度來討論正向積極的角度來面對你有沒有更具體的一點說法"},{"start":139.381,"end":153.872,"text":"我還是要說明因為關於國定假日的相關的制度的法規主管機關是在內政部但這段時間當然有在行政部門跨部門裡面有相關的討論我們也願意參與那所以從勞動部的立場跟角度來說我們覺得當然"},{"start":156.033,"end":174.285,"text":"如果通盤的考慮包括各個領域的一些工作包括工商的情境那尤其是勞工的需求的狀況之下那我們認為國定假日的調整這個議題從政府角度我們認為有正向討論的空間叫正向討論的空間部長你知不知道內政部長那時候講說不會有院版"},{"start":175.154,"end":203.659,"text":"就這個條例不會有院版你知道這個事嗎已經確定了嗎因為你剛剛回答前面委員的時候你講說你們內部有在做溝通不是但他講的應該是要不要立法這件事情對啊但因為國定價格的討論裡面一個事情是國定價格要不要調整跟另外一個是這個相關的制度要不要所以你覺得要不要立法要不要立法那因為這個立法法規的主管機關在尊重內政部那這個關於立法的形式或法規規範的形式的部分我這部分我們尊重內政部"},{"start":204.039,"end":227.298,"text":"現在立法的流程已經在進行,你從勞動部主管機關的立場啦,就是幫勞工講話的立場,你覺得應該剩下幾天多到?我想天數的部分還是一樣,我覺得這部分是要讓人合力討論,對。部長,剛剛我聽了楊耀委員的質詢其實很有感,就是說到底要放國定假日放七天,還是特休放七天,其實你站,我已經提醒你好幾次了,你站在勞動部的主管機關立場,你當然講都好,只要能夠降低工時都好。"},{"start":228.155,"end":250.053,"text":"當然你站在...站在勞動部部長的本位你本來就應該要幫勞工講話最後的決定當然是你們行政團隊要討論這我願意尊重但如果連主管的勞動部站在勞工的立場講話都不敢大聲講出來這樣的聲音的時候那我們真的很懷疑喔我們現在民進黨政府到底有沒有心要解決工時的問題啦來剛剛楊耀文講特休其實我今天想要討論一下這件事情喔"},{"start":250.213,"end":276.041,"text":"所以我們算這個年度總工時台灣當然是所謂的過勞之島但工時其實有分所謂的制度工時跟實際工時實際工時當然含加班等等實際狀況在內那個就超過2000小時很多委員提我就不再提了我們今天在討論的叫做制度工時的狀況因為它跟特休假的安排是有關係的按照勞動基準法57條所謂勞動工作的年資是要以同一事業為限那麼決定特休假能夠有幾天其實跟勞工的年資是掛鉤的"},{"start":277.381,"end":301.838,"text":"那以實務上你這個統計結果112年行政院主計總署事業人力僱傭狀況調查統計結果來綜合分析其實台灣有93.2%的勞工啊服務的年資是在10年以下的為什麼呢 因為大部分勞工是中小企業嘛中小企業的雖然這樣講有一點點難過啦但中小企業的平均壽命其實並沒有非常的長這個換言之我們現在對特休假制度的一個設計啊如果真的能夠達到"},{"start":303.699,"end":323.281,"text":"達到一個一年有30天的特休你要有30年的年資嘛這幾乎是鳳毛麟角大部分的勞工93.2其實都只有10年以下的年資換言之其實實務上台灣勞工實務上特休假大概頂了天大概就15天啦所以按照這樣子的一個比較基準如果我們要跟日本韓國跟新加坡比起來的話其實你可以看到"},{"start":323.661,"end":341.649,"text":"你看後面好像台灣的特休是最多的啊對不對你看我們到30天其他國家都沒有到30天但是實務上是什麼93.2%其實要看圖表的左半邊啊我們這個左半邊的數字好看嗎其實是不好看的年度總工時也是一樣看起來年次越長總工時會降下來但是其實"},{"start":342.569,"end":364.283,"text":"前面我們數字不好看的地方才是93.2%主流勞工現在的待遇我為什麼今天要去提這個我當然希望這個勞動部這邊也針對勞動計算法的修正去增加特休假但第一個我們現在不管是國定假日的法案或者是特休的法案我們都沒有看到院版嘛這第一個第二個即便你現在在勞動計算法這邊去規範特休假的增加"},{"start":365.424,"end":380.691,"text":"你怎麼樣跨越年資的問題現在都沒有辦法所以為什麼我們要回頭去修這個國定假日的法案為什麼我們講要立法就是因為它可以立刻降低叫做制度工時嘛我加了7天的國定假日我的制度工時就是會降低7天的這個工時嘛"},{"start":381.491,"end":407.874,"text":"另外也是因為國定假日它是有社會的集約的反應嘛社會集體放假它也比較容易帶動實際工時的下降所以我必須要講現在大家要去討論修訂這個紀念日與節日實施條例基本上就是因為它又快又準嘛這個圖表告訴你如果加上了七天假我把七天假還給勞工之後你的93.2%的這個區間你的制度年總工時就跟日韓是差不多的水準"},{"start":408.494,"end":427.096,"text":"換言之我們把七天假還給勞工我們也不會因為這樣就比日韓放更多的假頂多跟他差不多而已但是這樣子的一個放假是93.2%的勞工大部分的勞工可以立刻享受到的這個是修特休的盲點但本席完全不反對你們在特休方面也天才家夥因為台灣是過勞之島是一個事實啊"},{"start":427.697,"end":447.63,"text":"我們希望看到的是多重的討論但我也要很遺憾的點出一個現實也就是說不管特休也好 國定假日也好行政端果足不前我們現在去選擇修國定假日是因為他速度快而且馬上有效所以我希望部長不要再只是開放正向的態度經過這樣子的討論之後你要不要再積極一點 再具體一點"},{"start":448.51,"end":463.44,"text":"最後我想其實這段時間跟其他部會在這個議題在國定價值議題上面的討論我們都是都是非常非常樂意一起參與討論的我們從來沒有覺得這是別人的事情但是確實主管是在別的部會所以我們是願意參與討論的我們也積極的參與這些討論"},{"start":467.27,"end":487.576,"text":"那要不要讓他調整?讓台灣的總工時稍微降下來一點?製度工時降下來一點?從勞動部的角度當然都會希望這工時的部分是能夠再降低的我們從勞動部的角度當然是希望再降低的那所以剛才說因為現在討論國定假日的議題的時候我說從勞動部的立場來說我們認為這是有正向討論的空間"},{"start":492.248,"end":508.135,"text":"反正這個題目才剛開始那我提醒部長很多過去時代在街頭上面的戰友是很期待政府有積極作為的他們很快又會在街頭上面集結希望勞動部做好準備我還是不厭其煩的再次提醒你就要站在勞動部的本位"},{"start":508.815,"end":523.625,"text":"去大力的支持勞工這個才是台灣人民會想要看到的好不好勞任部當然是要站在勞工的立場這個當然是要站在勞工的立場還只是正向積極的態度是蠻可惜的啦包括跟相關部會的討論我們當然都是站在勞工的立場好 謝謝啦"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:40:58.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:40:59.210000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，洪部長有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-03-19T12:40:59.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:40:59.230000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:41:07.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:41:07.933000+08:00","text":"牛委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:41:08.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:41:09.755000+08:00","text":"部長午安，辛苦了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:41:11.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:41:30.951000+08:00","text":"很多委員今天在質詢勞動部的業務報告時，都提到臺灣工時過長的問題，部長知不知道兩天前內政委員會在審查紀念日及節日實施條例的時候，劉世芳部長說「還我七天假」是特定團體綁架勞工的假議題，你認同這樣的說法嗎？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:41:30.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:41:31.451000+08:00","text":"我沒有特別看到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:41:35.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:41:35.768000+08:00","text":"你沒有特別看到？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:41:35.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:41:39.191000+08:00","text":"你的次長也在旁邊，你應該好好跟進這個題目。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:41:39.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:41:50.842000+08:00","text":"雖然這是內政部主責，前一個會期本席在那邊質詢的時候，你說要尊重主管機關，這我當然理解，但畢竟這跟勞工的權益有關，我希望部長回去了解一下這件事情。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:41:51.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:41:52.844000+08:00","text":"那你現在聽到我如此轉述，你覺得這樣的說法妥當嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:41:55.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:42:08.404000+08:00","text":"我想應該是說作為行政部門，比較希望在制度面的討論，怎麼樣在一個公平性、一致性的原則下好好討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:42:09.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:42:12.899000+08:00","text":"對不起，我真的沒有看到這個訊息。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:42:13.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:42:23.270000+08:00","text":"好，剛剛有很多委員提醒你，你也曾經跟社運界、跟很多團體都有很好的關係，你也曾經幫他們講話，我今天就不在這個題目上再多逼問你，但是請你好好了解。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:42:23.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:42:34.361000+08:00","text":"因為我認為這樣子的說法對於很多勞工團體，特別是現在都還在積極爭取讓勞工工時下降的團體，這樣的說法非常非常不公平，讓人非常傷心，請部長好好了解一下。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:42:35.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:42:43.490000+08:00","text":"我就再問，現在大家談紀念日及節日實施條例的修正，當然最後就要進入深水區，比如說國定假日要增加幾天。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:42:44.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:42:52.679000+08:00","text":"剛剛有幾位委員都有問到這個問題，你說用開放的態度來討論，正向積極的角度來面對，你有沒有更具體一點的說法？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:42:55.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:07.610000+08:00","text":"我還是要說明，因為國定假日相關制度的法規主管機關是在內政部，這段時間當然在行政部門有跨部會討論，我們也願意參與。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:08.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:26.103000+08:00","text":"從勞動部的立場和角度來說，我們覺得如果通盤考慮，包括各個領域的一些工作，包括工商的情境，尤其是勞工的需求狀況之下，我們認為國定假日的調整這個議題，從勞動部的角度，我們認為有正向討論的空間。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:26.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:27.944000+08:00","text":"對，是正向討論的空間。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:27.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:33.634000+08:00","text":"部長，你知不知道內政部長那時候有說這個條例不會有院版，你知道這個事嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:33.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:34.695000+08:00","text":"已經確定了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:34.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:37.255000+08:00","text":"因為你剛剛回答前面的委員，說你們內部有在溝通。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:38.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:40.236000+08:00","text":"他講的應該是要不要立法這件事。對啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:40.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:47.777000+08:00","text":"但是國定假日的討論，一個是國定假日要不要調整，另外一個是相關的制度要不要立法。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:47.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:48.697000+08:00","text":"你覺得要不要立法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:50.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:53.258000+08:00","text":"這個法規的主管機關在內政部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:53.258000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:54.578000+08:00","text":"喔，在內政部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:43:54.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:43:59.639000+08:00","text":"關於立法的形式跟法規規範形式的部分，我們尊重內政部。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:00.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:05.824000+08:00","text":"現在立法的流程已經在進行，你從勞動部主管機關的立場，就是幫勞工講話的立場，你覺得應該增加幾天妥當？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:07.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:10.167000+08:00","text":"我想天數的部分，我還是一樣覺得要和大家開放討論。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:11.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:11.909000+08:00","text":"開放討論。對。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:11.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:17.253000+08:00","text":"部長，我剛才聽了楊曜委員的質詢其實很有感，到底國定假日要放7天，還是特休放7天。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:17.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:23.278000+08:00","text":"其實我已經提醒你好幾次，你站在勞動部主管機關的立場，當然講都好，只要能夠降低工時都好。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:24.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:32.142000+08:00","text":"當然你站在勞動部部長的本位，本來就應該幫勞工講話，最後的決定當然是你們行政團隊要討論，這我願意尊重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:32.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:41.369000+08:00","text":"但是連主管的勞動部站在勞工立場，都不敢大聲講出這種聲音的時候，我們真的很懷疑現在民進黨政府到底有沒有心要解決工時的問題。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:43.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:45.773000+08:00","text":"剛才楊委員講特休，其實我今天想要討論這件事。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:46.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:49.614000+08:00","text":"我們算年度總工時，臺灣當然是所謂的過勞之島。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:49.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:44:58.097000+08:00","text":"但是工時其實有分所謂的制度工時跟實際工時，實際工時含加班等狀況在內，那個超過2,000小時，很多委員提過，我就不再提了。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:44:58.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:45:12.021000+08:00","text":"我們今天討論制度工時，因為那跟特休假的安排是有關係的，按照勞動基準法第五十七條，所謂「勞工工作年資以服務同一事業者為限」，決定特休假有幾天跟勞工的年資掛鉤。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:45:13.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:45:26.490000+08:00","text":"以實務上的統計結果，從112年行政院主計總處事業人力僱用狀況調查統計結果綜合分析來看，其實臺灣有93.2%的勞工服務年資是在10年以下，為什麼？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:45:26.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:45:34.516000+08:00","text":"因為大部分勞工是在中小企業，雖然這樣講有點難過啦，但是中小企業的平均壽命其實並沒有非常長。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:45:34.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:45:52.593000+08:00","text":"換言之，我們現在特休假制度的設計，如果真的能夠達到一年有30天的特休，要有30年的年資，這幾乎是鳳毛麟角，大部分93.2%的勞工都只有10年以下的年資，換言之，臺灣勞工實際上的特休假大概只有15天。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:45:54.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:02.362000+08:00","text":"按照這樣的比較基準，如果我們要跟日本、韓國跟新加坡比，其實你可以看到，你看後面好像臺灣的特休是最多的，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:02.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:04.563000+08:00","text":"你看我們有30天，其他國家都沒有到30天。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:05.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:07.264000+08:00","text":"但實務上是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:07.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:08.805000+08:00","text":"93.2%其實是要看圖表的左半邊。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:09.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:10.866000+08:00","text":"左半邊的數字好看嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:10.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:11.626000+08:00","text":"其實是不好看的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:12.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:23.592000+08:00","text":"年度總工時也是一樣，看起來年資越長，總工時會降下來，但是其實前面數字不好看的地方才是93.2%主流勞工現在的待遇！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:24.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:25.674000+08:00","text":"我為什麼今天要提這個？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:25.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:36.060000+08:00","text":"我當然希望勞動部針對勞動基準法修正，增加特休假，但第一個，不管是國定假日的法案或是特休法案，我們都沒有看到院版，這是第一點。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:36.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:42.925000+08:00","text":"第二，即便你現在在勞動基準法規範增加特休假，怎麼跨越年資的問題？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:42.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:44.826000+08:00","text":"現在都沒有辦法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:45.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:48.927000+08:00","text":"我們為什麼要回頭去修國定假日的法案，為什麼我們想要立法？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:49.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:46:56.671000+08:00","text":"就是因為這樣可以立刻降低制度工時，加了7天的國定假日，制度工時就會降低7天的工時。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:46:57.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:47:05.578000+08:00","text":"另外，也是因為國定假日有社會集約的反應，社會集體放假，也比較容易帶動實際工時的下降。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:47:06.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:47:12.684000+08:00","text":"所以我必須講，現在大家討論修訂紀念日及節日實施條例，基本上就是因為它又快又準。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:47:13.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:47:23.854000+08:00","text":"這個圖表告訴你，如果加上7天假，把7天假還給勞工之後，93.2%區間的制度年總工時就跟日、韓是差不多的水準。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:47:24.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:47:29.400000+08:00","text":"換言之，我們把7天假還給勞工，也不會比日、韓放更多的假，頂多跟他差不多而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:47:29.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:47:35.187000+08:00","text":"但是這樣子的放假，是93.2%的勞工、大部分的勞工可以立刻享受到的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:47:35.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:47:40.073000+08:00","text":"這是修特休的盲點，但本席完全不反對你們在特休方面也添柴加火。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:47:41.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:47:55.785000+08:00","text":"臺灣是過勞之島，這是一個事實，我們希望看到的是多重的討論，但我也要很遺憾的點出一個現實，不管特休也好，國定假日也好，行政端裹足不前，我們現在選擇修國定假日，是因為它速度快，而且馬上有效。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:47:56.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:48:03.630000+08:00","text":"所以我希望部長不要只是持開放正向的態度，經過這樣子的討論之後，你要不要再積極一點、再具體一點？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:48:06.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:48:19.440000+08:00","text":"我想其實這段時間跟其他部會在國定假日這個議題上面的討論，我們都非常非常樂意參與一起討論的，從來沒有覺得這是別人的事情，但是確實主管機關是在別的部會，所以我們是願意參與討論的，我們也積極的參與這些討論。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:48:23.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:48:24.911000+08:00","text":"那要不要讓它調整？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:48:26.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:48:28.732000+08:00","text":"讓臺灣的總工時稍微降下來一點？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:48:28.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:48:31.392000+08:00","text":"制度工時降下來一點，你覺得有沒有必要？","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:48:31.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:48:38.335000+08:00","text":"從勞動部的角度，當然都會希望工時能夠再降低，從勞動部的角度當然是希望降低的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:48:39.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:48:43.576000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛說現在討論國定假日的議題，從勞動部的立場來說，我們認為這有正向討論的空間。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:48:48.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:48:59.213000+08:00","text":"好吧，反正這個題目才剛開始，我會提醒部長，很多過去時代在街頭上的戰友很期待政府有積極作為，他們很快又會在街頭集結，希望勞動部做好準備。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:48:59.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:49:07.817000+08:00","text":"我還是不厭其煩地再次提醒你，你要站在勞動部的本位，大力地支持勞工，這才是臺灣人民想要看到的，好不好？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:49:07.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:49:11.840000+08:00","text":"勞動部當然是要站在勞工的立場……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:49:12.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:49:15.322000+08:00","text":"你現在如果還只是持「正向積極的態度」，是蠻可惜的啦！","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-03-19T12:49:15.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:49:18.944000+08:00","text":"包括跟相關部會的討論，我們當然都是站在勞工的立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2025-03-19T12:49:18.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-19T12:49:19.605000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝啦！謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-03-19T12:49:20.105000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-19T12:49:22.962143+08:00","text":"現在請張雅琳委員詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1204,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時40分）謝謝主席，洪部長有請。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安，辛苦了。很多委員今天在質詢勞動部的業務報告時，都提到臺灣工時過長的問題，部長知不知道兩天前內政委員會在審查紀念日及節日實施條例的時候，劉世芳部長說「還我七天假」是特定團體綁架勞工的假議題，你認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有特別看到。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有特別看到？你的次長也在旁邊，你應該好好跟進這個題目。雖然這是內政部主責，前一個會期本席在那邊質詢的時候，你說要尊重主管機關，這我當然理解，但畢竟這跟勞工的權益有關，我希望部長回去了解一下這件事情。那你現在聽到我如此轉述，你覺得這樣的說法妥當嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想應該是說作為行政部門，比較希望在制度面的討論，怎麼樣在一個公平性、一致性的原則下好好討論。對不起，我真的沒有看到這個訊息。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，剛剛有很多委員提醒你，你也曾經跟社運界、跟很多團體都有很好的關係，你也曾經幫他們講話，我今天就不在這個題目上再多逼問你，但是請你好好了解。因為我認為這樣子的說法對於很多勞工團體，特別是現在都還在積極爭取讓勞工工時下降的團體，這樣的說法非常非常不公平，讓人非常傷心，請部長好好了解一下。","我就再問，現在大家談紀念日及節日實施條例的修正，當然最後就要進入深水區，比如說國定假日要增加幾天。剛剛有幾位委員都有問到這個問題，你說用開放的態度來討論，正向積極的角度來面對，你有沒有更具體一點的說法？"],["洪部長申翰：我還是要說明，因為國定假日相關制度的法規主管機關是在內政部，這段時間當然在行政部門有跨部會討論，我們也願意參與。從勞動部的立場和角度來說，我們覺得如果通盤考慮，包括各個領域的一些工作，包括工商的情境，尤其是勞工的需求狀況之下，我們認為國定假日的調整這個議題，從勞動部的角度，我們認為有正向討論的空間。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，是正向討論的空間。部長，你知不知道內政部長那時候有說這個條例不會有院版，你知道這個事嗎？已經確定了嗎？因為你剛剛回答前面的委員，說你們內部有在溝通。"],["洪部長申翰：他講的應該是要不要立法這件事。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊。"],["洪部長申翰：但是國定假日的討論，一個是國定假日要不要調整，另外一個是相關的制度要不要立法。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得要不要立法？"],["洪部長申翰：這個法規的主管機關在內政部。"],["牛委員煦庭：喔，在內政部。"],["洪部長申翰：關於立法的形式跟法規規範形式的部分，我們尊重內政部。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在立法的流程已經在進行，你從勞動部主管機關的立場，就是幫勞工講話的立場，你覺得應該增加幾天妥當？"],["洪部長申翰：我想天數的部分，我還是一樣覺得要和大家開放討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：開放討論。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我剛才聽了楊曜委員的質詢其實很有感，到底國定假日要放7天，還是特休放7天。其實我已經提醒你好幾次，你站在勞動部主管機關的立場，當然講都好，只要能夠降低工時都好。當然你站在勞動部部長的本位，本來就應該幫勞工講話，最後的決定當然是你們行政團隊要討論，這我願意尊重。但是連主管的勞動部站在勞工立場，都不敢大聲講出這種聲音的時候，我們真的很懷疑現在民進黨政府到底有沒有心要解決工時的問題。","剛才楊委員講特休，其實我今天想要討論這件事。我們算年度總工時，臺灣當然是所謂的過勞之島。但是工時其實有分所謂的制度工時跟實際工時，實際工時含加班等狀況在內，那個超過2,000小時，很多委員提過，我就不再提了。","我們今天討論制度工時，因為那跟特休假的安排是有關係的，按照勞動基準法第五十七條，所謂「勞工工作年資以服務同一事業者為限」，決定特休假有幾天跟勞工的年資掛鉤。以實務上的統計結果，從112年行政院主計總處事業人力僱用狀況調查統計結果綜合分析來看，其實臺灣有93.2%的勞工服務年資是在10年以下，為什麼？因為大部分勞工是在中小企業，雖然這樣講有點難過啦，但是中小企業的平均壽命其實並沒有非常長。換言之，我們現在特休假制度的設計，如果真的能夠達到一年有30天的特休，要有30年的年資，這幾乎是鳳毛麟角，大部分93.2%的勞工都只有10年以下的年資，換言之，臺灣勞工實際上的特休假大概只有15天。","按照這樣的比較基準，如果我們要跟日本、韓國跟新加坡比，其實你可以看到，你看後面好像臺灣的特休是最多的，對不對？你看我們有30天，其他國家都沒有到30天。但實務上是什麼？93.2%其實是要看圖表的左半邊。左半邊的數字好看嗎？其實是不好看的。年度總工時也是一樣，看起來年資越長，總工時會降下來，但是其實前面數字不好看的地方才是93.2%主流勞工現在的待遇！","我為什麼今天要提這個？我當然希望勞動部針對勞動基準法修正，增加特休假，但第一個，不管是國定假日的法案或是特休法案，我們都沒有看到院版，這是第一點。第二，即便你現在在勞動基準法規範增加特休假，怎麼跨越年資的問題？現在都沒有辦法。我們為什麼要回頭去修國定假日的法案，為什麼我們想要立法？就是因為這樣可以立刻降低制度工時，加了7天的國定假日，制度工時就會降低7天的工時。另外，也是因為國定假日有社會集約的反應，社會集體放假，也比較容易帶動實際工時的下降。","所以我必須講，現在大家討論修訂紀念日及節日實施條例，基本上就是因為它又快又準。這個圖表告訴你，如果加上7天假，把7天假還給勞工之後，93.2%區間的制度年總工時就跟日、韓是差不多的水準。換言之，我們把7天假還給勞工，也不會比日、韓放更多的假，頂多跟他差不多而已。但是這樣子的放假，是93.2%的勞工、大部分的勞工可以立刻享受到的。這是修特休的盲點，但本席完全不反對你們在特休方面也添柴加火。","臺灣是過勞之島，這是一個事實，我們希望看到的是多重的討論，但我也要很遺憾的點出一個現實，不管特休也好，國定假日也好，行政端裹足不前，我們現在選擇修國定假日，是因為它速度快，而且馬上有效。所以我希望部長不要只是持開放正向的態度，經過這樣子的討論之後，你要不要再積極一點、再具體一點？"],["洪部長申翰：我想其實這段時間跟其他部會在國定假日這個議題上面的討論，我們都非常非常樂意參與一起討論的，從來沒有覺得這是別人的事情，但是確實主管機關是在別的部會，所以我們是願意參與討論的，我們也積極的參與這些討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：那要不要讓它調整？讓臺灣的總工時稍微降下來一點？制度工時降下來一點，你覺得有沒有必要？"],["洪部長申翰：從勞動部的角度，當然都會希望工時能夠再降低，從勞動部的角度當然是希望降低的。所以剛剛說現在討論國定假日的議題，從勞動部的立場來說，我們認為這有正向討論的空間。"],["牛委員煦庭：好吧，反正這個題目才剛開始，我會提醒部長，很多過去時代在街頭上的戰友很期待政府有積極作為，他們很快又會在街頭集結，希望勞動部做好準備。我還是不厭其煩地再次提醒你，你要站在勞動部的本位，大力地支持勞工，這才是臺灣人民想要看到的，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：勞動部當然是要站在勞工的立場……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在如果還只是持「正向積極的態度」，是蠻可惜的啦！"],["洪部長申翰：包括跟相關部會的討論，我們當然都是站在勞工的立場。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝啦！"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請張雅琳委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}