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discussion的一個場地人事長用這個開放的態度我希望我們民進黨的中央政府能夠效法你為什麼呢我想請教一下我們台灣有很多的驕傲嘛對不對我不知道人事長你知道我們的工時也是在世界上算是非常驕傲的成績你知道吧"},{"start":54.791,"end":72.736,"text":"我覺得還好 按照我們的統計資料台灣高工時 世界都在看有些事情我們拚第一名那是叫做世界都開心 台灣人也開心但我有一個拚第一名 第二名叫國恥 是什麼"},{"start":74.11,"end":88.725,"text":"就是工時啊 沒錯吧如果我們工時今天拚到讓世界都看到的話我跟人事長講那真的就是我們今天政府要好好去思考我們蔡英文總統有一個名言你聽過吧勞工是什麼"},{"start":93.226,"end":106.772,"text":"對嘛勞工是心理最軟的一塊不要變成勞工變成肝臟最硬的一塊吧對不對所以今天我跟各位說我國的工時高居世界主要各國第五高"},{"start":107.532,"end":123.442,"text":"在亞洲我們也很驕傲我們只輸給新加坡所以再努力一點賣肝把自己打造成所謂的肝硬化國家的話我們就可以贏過新加坡你希望我們的工時高過新加坡嗎 希望不希望 人事長"},{"start":124.846,"end":137.057,"text":"我覺得提升國家整體競爭力的一個要素不見得只有靠增加公司啦當然啦 所以非常謝謝任市長啊你在這個體量上 我跟大家說跟任市長講啦"},{"start":140.2,"end":156.966,"text":"今天國民黨我們提出還價於民還價於 恢復國定價大概恢復幾天社會大眾可以共同討論可是今天如果說我們今天的工時排行是全世界"},{"start":158.186,"end":183.42,"text":"最後一名 亞洲最後一名就是我們工時是最低的啦那我跟你講 那今天我們提還價於民我就覺得一點正當性都沒有因為台灣的工時就是最低的嘛 那還要還價於民可是現在不是啊現在我們其實現代化的國家非常強調的勞工權益除了薪資問題以外就是什麼問題就是什麼問題 請問人事長"},{"start":187.594,"end":210.43,"text":"你說超時加班的問題對嘛 就是不要再乾硬化的問題嘛 對不對就是放假的問題嘛所以我跟任市長說我謝謝你今天的態度是對五一勞動節放假的不否定啦 對不對 沒錯吧就是需要大家一起討論的啦那我請任市長這邊告訴大家"},{"start":212.298,"end":238.615,"text":"肯定一點好不好 五一勞動節勞工值不值得這個假值不值得五一勞動節勞工一定在放假我說我們今天公務員啦 我講的是公務員啦變國定假日可以嗎因為這個議題說真的齁一直那再問你啊 教師節嘛好不好可不可以我覺得這些議題都可以提出來討論啦我回頭告訴你齁當然我必須講啦 對哪一天放假齁"},{"start":239.778,"end":254.138,"text":"我沒有什麼太大的那個意見堅持啦我覺得哪一天放假是讓人民共同來決定嘛對不對沒錯吧可是呢但是我們政府本身先要把政策立場開放出來沒錯吧"},{"start":255.86,"end":280.115,"text":"現在目前我想請教一下我舉個例子 你看東京都嘛東京都政府他現在研議要開放職員週休三日從2025年4月1號起然後東京都政府會改變彈性工時制的運用讓職員每週可以多休一個平日那當然看起來台灣現在可能還很遙遠 這是研議啦"},{"start":281.716,"end":306.689,"text":"那我接下來想請教一下就是說我們剛剛講就是還價移民的這件事情我想請問人事行政總署有沒有針對這個題目已經開始進行內部討論了有沒有還價移民的主體應該是勞動部那些有經貸的客戶人事行政總署我覺得你們剛剛你的意見很好嘛那我想請問有沒有跟我們的勞動部一起來討論匯商這件事情"},{"start":311.619,"end":322.681,"text":"當然那個放假日的我們一定會找教育部還有勞動部大家一起來討論甚至金管會我們也一起來討論非常好嘛但是當然你要講說你是主管公務人員嘛對不對"},{"start":323.735,"end":344.149,"text":"公務人員我跟委員報告我們現在已經有還算不錯的一個彈性上下班的一些機制當然我知道你要講我還是回到原始的問題當然我們的工時我也必須肯定經過歷任政府的努力工時是有在縮少減少對不對沒錯吧對不對可是全世界也在減少"},{"start":345.49,"end":366.225,"text":"不是嗎所以我們才會維持到高工時變成是說世界亞洲第二名這才是我今天講的根本我不知道你今天人事長你認不認同我今天就跟你說如果台灣今天的工時是亞洲這個最低第二低第三低那我跟你講還價於民說真的我就覺得沒有底氣沒錯吧"},{"start":368.208,"end":383.673,"text":"如果我們工時就已經很低了現狀就不是嘛所以我跟任市長說我還是拜託你啦就是我今天肯定你就說剛剛我看王宏威講你馬上講你也不否定這個態度是正確的但是還不夠"},{"start":385.213,"end":411.391,"text":"想想勞工是我們民進黨我們的以前蔡英文總統說心中最軟的一塊那你就應該在這件事情態度上能夠讓往更前面走一步那我們人事總署如果態度積極一點你就可以跟勞動部再做更多的會商啊其實勞動部要比你更軟對勞工更軟才對啦 對不對他是業管主管單位嘛我也會去問勞動部啦但是我先問問人事長嘛"},{"start":413.012,"end":440.458,"text":"所以我要跟人事長說你這個所謂的開放的態度我覺得很好但是還不夠你應該以我們今天人事總長的身份人事長的身份來跟我們的政府多多督促希望能夠讓我們的勞工讓我們的工時這個世界第二高亞洲第二高這個汙名能夠在你跟勞動部的努力之下把它解除掉好不好 拜託"},{"start":441.518,"end":458.659,"text":"我跟委員報告 事實上我現在在思考的就是在既有的遊戲規則裡面增加 就鼓勵公務人員去休假就是來降低他的working hours您用了很多的方法 很多的努力公時就亞洲第二高 世界第五高啊"},{"start":459.6,"end":483.207,"text":"那這個是我們今天面臨最大的問題最後我也不為難你啦你還是要遵從整個中央政府的意見但至少我今天聽到我覺得希望滿滿啊我看你態度很開放啊沒有很強硬說啊今天我就反對啊 對不對所以至少這個態度是一個好的起點我們也會繼續努力啦然後去跟我們的執政政府協調請我們的中央政府真的把勞工當作真正"},{"start":483.767,"end":493.684,"text":"心中最軟的一塊不要讓大家加班加到肝硬化那接下來我想請教您人事長去年我們也差不多這時間在這裡3月27號你記得你當時承諾我什麼事情嗎"},{"start":498.952,"end":513.322,"text":"考你記憶不對啦不能這樣考你我直接說啦你說你非常認同我的建議就是我們今天這個公園調心法治化你會在年底前來提出現在年底過了嗎"},{"start":516.693,"end":533.345,"text":"我該做的努力 我已經做了 我等你十年了你不能只有努力啦 任市長你去年 你就跳我票不是啊 行政院有它固定的一個行政程序啊什麼案子要排列 我跟你講 任市長 我先跟你講齁我不否定你的努力啦"},{"start":534.144,"end":550.866,"text":"但是你也知道今天又不是說今天學生考試在看成績今天政府執政的努力是要看成果的嘛成績可能是個人的我今天考得好考不好是我個人的事情可是你的成果攸關的就是國家"},{"start":551.807,"end":576.628,"text":"所以我跟你講 我沒有說今天要苛責你啦可是說你去年給我期待滿滿 你跟我講我在去年3月質詢你的時候 你跟我講年底就會來做法治化我當然就想 那太好了 我就覺得很受振奮嘛可是到年底我就看沒有啊那你當然我知道 你說你很努力 那中央政府不努力也不能完全怪你啊不是嗎不是中央政府不努力啦 我就跟委員講"},{"start":577.423,"end":591.712,"text":"我就告訴你 中年年底 我的課程高了 老師 教授當時要拋分數 我不知道你的教授真的是變大啦 中央政府教授變大啦那我想請教我們人事長 你可以再努力一點喔 請那個教授不要再睡了啦"},{"start":599.617,"end":627.159,"text":"年底前把那個考卷批出來好不好再給你一個年底好不好你去年三月跟我講年底今年三月我再跟你講年底可以嗎可不可以其實我跟委員報告啦我三不五辭都去拜託啦我都有在持續做這件事情因為行政院它面對的這個法案的數量也非常多它有固定的一個排審在處理啦好謝謝謝謝任市長啦所以拜託任市長"},{"start":627.979,"end":629.481,"text":"我們一起努力一下好不好謝謝你謝謝羅志強委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:08.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:10.618000+08:00","text":"主席，有請人事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:10.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:13.819000+08:00","text":"請人事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:13.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:14.679000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:14.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:19.341000+08:00","text":"人事長，我今天要給你肯定，你知道肯定什麼事嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:19.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:31.766000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，我剛剛聽你跟王鴻薇在詢答過程當中，你說我們把五一恢復放假、勞動節恢復放假，你也不反對嘛，對不對？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:31.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:33.373000+08:00","text":"我不反對。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:33.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:33.914000+08:00","text":"不反對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:33.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:34.875000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:34.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:37.257000+08:00","text":"這是一個open discussion的場域。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:37.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:46.105000+08:00","text":"人事長用開放的態度，我希望我們民進黨的中央政府能夠效法你，為什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:46.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:13:56.315000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，我們臺灣有很多的驕傲，人事長知道我們的工時也是在世界上算是非常驕傲的成績，你知道吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:13:57.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:14:01.152000+08:00","text":"我覺得還好，按照我們的統計資料……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:14:01.152000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:14:02.152000+08:00","text":"我跟你講啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:14:01.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:14:15.736000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，臺灣高工時，世界都在看，有些事情我們拼第一名，那是叫做世界都開心，臺灣人也開心，但有一個拼第一名、第二名的叫國恥，是什麼？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:14:17.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:14:18.371000+08:00","text":"就是工時，沒錯吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:14:19.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:14:28.022000+08:00","text":"如果我們工時拼到讓世界都看到的話，我跟人事長講，真的就是我們政府要好好去思考。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:14:28.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:14:30.424000+08:00","text":"我們蔡英文總統的一個名言，你聽過吧？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:14:31.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:14:31.725000+08:00","text":"勞工是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:14:31.725000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:14:36.226000+08:00","text":"「心肝肉」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:14:36.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:14:42.688000+08:00","text":"對嘛，勞工是心裡最軟的一塊，不要勞工變成肝臟最硬的一塊吧，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:14:42.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:15:02.199000+08:00","text":"所以今天我跟各位說，我國的工時高居世界主要各國第五高，在亞洲，我們也很驕傲，我們只輸給新加坡，所以再努力一點賣肝，把自己打造成所謂的肝硬化國家，我們就可以贏過新加坡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:15:02.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:15:05.461000+08:00","text":"你希望我們的工時高過新加坡嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:15:05.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:15:06.442000+08:00","text":"希望不希望，人事長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:15:07.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:15:15.113000+08:00","text":"我覺得提升國家整體競爭力的要素，不見得只有靠增加工時，還有其他因素。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:15:16.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:15:54.834000+08:00","text":"當然啦，所以非常謝謝人事長，你站在這個體諒上，我跟大家還有跟人事長講，國民黨提出還假於民、恢復國定假，要恢復幾天當然社會大眾可以共同討論，可是如果我們今天的工時排行是全世界最後一名、亞洲最後一名，就是我們工時是最低的，那麼我跟你講，今天我們提還假於民，我就覺得一點正當性都沒有，因為臺灣的工時就是最低的嘛，那還要還假於民？","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:15:55.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:15:56.555000+08:00","text":"可是現在不是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:15:58.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:06.420000+08:00","text":"其實現代化的國家非常強調勞工權益，除了薪資問題以外，就是什麼問題，請問人事長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:10.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:13.396000+08:00","text":"你說超時加班的問題。對嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:14.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:19.180000+08:00","text":"就是不要再肝硬化的問題、就是放假的問題嘛！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:19.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:27.126000+08:00","text":"所以我跟人事長說，我謝謝你今天的態度是對五一勞動節放假的不否定，對不對？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:27.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:27.446000+08:00","text":"沒錯吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:28.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:30.969000+08:00","text":"本來就是需要大家一起討論的，我覺得……","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:31.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:36.139000+08:00","text":"我請人事長也告訴大家，肯定一點，好不好？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:36.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:38.720000+08:00","text":"五一勞動節，勞工值不值得這個假？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:39.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:39.881000+08:00","text":"值不值得？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:40.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:42.283000+08:00","text":"五一勞動節，勞工已經在放假了。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:42.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:48.267000+08:00","text":"我說我們的基層公務員，我講的是公務員，變國定假日可以嗎？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:48.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:50.148000+08:00","text":"因為這個議題說真的一直討論……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:50.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:51.909000+08:00","text":"我再問你教師節嘛，好不好？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:52.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:52.970000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:54.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:16:56.712000+08:00","text":"我覺得這些議題都可以提出來討論……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:16:56.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:17:10.469000+08:00","text":"我回頭告訴你，當然我必須講，對於哪一天放假，我沒有什麼太大的意見堅持，我覺得哪一天放假是讓人民共同來決定，對不對？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:17:10.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:17:12.512000+08:00","text":"沒錯吧？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:17:13.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:17:17.118000+08:00","text":"好，但是我們政府本身先要把政策立場開放出來，沒錯吧？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:17:19.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:17:43.095000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，我舉個例子，你看東京都政府現在研議要開放職員週休三日，從2025年4月1日起，然後東京都政府會改變彈性工時制的運用，讓職員每週可以多休一個平日，當然看起來，臺灣現在可能還很遙遠，但是研議啦。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:17:44.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:17:55.882000+08:00","text":"我接下來想請教一下，我們剛剛講還假於民這件事情，我想請問人事行政處總處有沒有針對這個題目已經開始進行內部討論了？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:17:58.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:02.305000+08:00","text":"還假於民的主體應該是勞動部那邊有整體的考慮。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:03.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:09.669000+08:00","text":"沒有，人事行政總處，我覺得剛剛你的意見很好，我想請問有沒有跟勞動部一起來討論、會商這件事情？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:14.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:22.074000+08:00","text":"當然放假日，我們一定會找教育部還有勞動部，大家一起來討論，甚至金管會，我們也一起來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:22.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:22.655000+08:00","text":"非常好嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:22.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:25.300000+08:00","text":"但是當然你要講你是主管公務人員嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:26.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:34.040000+08:00","text":"公務人員的部分，我跟委員報告，我們現在已經有還算不錯的彈性上下班這些機制……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:34.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:35.601000+08:00","text":"當然，我知道你要講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:35.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:44.427000+08:00","text":"我還是回到原始問題，當然我們的工時，我也必須肯定，經過歷任政府的努力，工時是有在縮少、減少，沒錯吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:45.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:49.591000+08:00","text":"可是全世界也在減少啊，不是嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:49.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:53.794000+08:00","text":"所以我們才會維持到高工時，變成是亞洲第二名啊！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:54.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:18:55.735000+08:00","text":"這才是我今天講的根本。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:18:56.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:19:09.205000+08:00","text":"我不知道人事長認不認同，我今天就跟你說，如果臺灣今天的工時是亞洲最低、第二低、第三低，我跟你講還假於民，說真的，我就覺得沒有底氣，沒錯吧？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:19:11.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:19:12.668000+08:00","text":"如果我們工時就已經很低了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:19:14.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:19:14.809000+08:00","text":"可是現狀就不是嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:19:15.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:19:26.673000+08:00","text":"所以我跟人事長說，我還是拜託你啦，我今天肯定你，剛剛我看王鴻薇講，你馬上講你也不否定，這個態度是正確的，但是還不夠。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:19:28.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:19:44.264000+08:00","text":"想想勞工是我們民進黨、我們以前蔡英文總統說心中最軟的一塊，那麼你就應該在這件事情的態度上，能夠往更前面走一步，人事總處如果態度積極一點，你就可以跟勞動部再做更多的會商。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:19:45.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:19:54.371000+08:00","text":"其實勞動部要比你更軟，對勞工更軟才對，它是業管、主管單位，我也會去問勞動部，但是我先問問人事長。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:19:56.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:20:23.458000+08:00","text":"我要跟人事長說，你所謂開放的態度，我覺得很好，但是還不夠，你今天應該以人事長的身分多多督促我們的政府，希望讓我們的勞工工時亞洲第二高這個污名，能夠在你跟勞動部的努力之下解除掉，好不好？拜託！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:20:25.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:20:36.333000+08:00","text":"事實上，我現在在思考的就是在既有的遊戲規則裡面增加，就是鼓勵公務人員休假，來降低他的working hours。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:20:36.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:20:44.501000+08:00","text":"你用了很多的方法、很多的努力，但我們的工時就亞洲第二高、世界第五高，這個是我們今天面臨最大的問題。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:20:44.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:20:51.703000+08:00","text":"最後，我也不為難你，因為你還是要遵從整個中央政府的意見，但至少我今天聽到就覺得希望滿滿。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:20:52.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:20:55.904000+08:00","text":"我看你的態度很開放，沒有很強硬說你就是反對，對不對？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:20:56.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:21:10.674000+08:00","text":"至少這個態度是一個好的起點，我們也會繼續努力，然後跟執政的政府協調，請中央政府真正把勞工當作心中最軟的一塊，不要讓大家加班加到肝硬化。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:21:11.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:21:16.684000+08:00","text":"接下來我想請教您，去年3月27號我們也差不多這時間在這裡，你記得你當時承諾我什麼事情嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:21:21.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:21:24.394000+08:00","text":"考你記憶不對，不能這樣考你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:21:24.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:21:36.322000+08:00","text":"我直接說，你說你非常認同我的建議，就是你會在年底前提出公務員調薪法制化，現在年底過了嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:21:39.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:21:43.336000+08:00","text":"我該做的努力，我已經做了，我去年12月就送……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:21:43.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:21:45.117000+08:00","text":"你不能只有努力，人事長！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:21:45.117000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:21:46.117000+08:00","text":"沒有，因為行政院……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:21:45.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:21:47.178000+08:00","text":"去年你就跳我票。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:21:47.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:21:52.042000+08:00","text":"不是，因為行政院有固定的行政程序，什麼案子要排入院會討論……","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:21:53.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:22:06.516000+08:00","text":"人事長，我先跟你講，我不否定你的努力，但是你也知道今天又不是學生考試在看成績，政府執政的努力是要看成果的。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:22:07.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:22:13.846000+08:00","text":"成績可能是個人的，今天考得好、考不好是個人的事情，可是你的成果攸關的是國家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:22:14.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:22:30+08:00","text":"所以我跟你說，我今天沒有要苛責你，可是你去年給我期待滿滿，我在去年3月質詢你的時候，你跟我講年底就會來做法制化，我當然就想那太好了，覺得很受振奮。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:22:30.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:22:37.386000+08:00","text":"可是到年底我看沒有，當然我知道你說你很努力，是中央政府不努力，也不能完全怪你，不是嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:22:37.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:22:47.247000+08:00","text":"不是中央政府不努力，我就跟你說，去年年底我把考卷交上去，老師、教授什麼時候要打分數，我不知道，那不是我……","quality":0.644},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:22:47.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:22:49.149000+08:00","text":"你的教授真的是懶惰。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:22:49.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:22:51.490000+08:00","text":"不，教授有他的考慮。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:22:51.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:22:52.471000+08:00","text":"中央政府、教授懶惰，你考卷都交了，拖到現在也不……","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:22:52.471000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:22:53.852000+08:00","text":"我的考卷在12月底以前有送。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:22:53.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:05.079000+08:00","text":"請教人事長，你再努力一點，請教授不要再睡了，年底前把考卷批出來，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:05.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:07.121000+08:00","text":"再給你一個年底，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:07.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:11.884000+08:00","text":"你去年3月跟我講年底，今年3月我再跟你講年底，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:11.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:12.165000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:12.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:16.268000+08:00","text":"其實我三不五時都去拜託。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:16.268000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:17.268000+08:00","text":"非常好！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:16.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:26.876000+08:00","text":"我都有持續在做這件事情，因為行政院面對的法案數量也非常多，有固定的排程在處理。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:27.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:28.818000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝人事長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:29.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:32.301000+08:00","text":"拜託人事長，我們一起努力一下，好不好？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:32.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:32.321000+08:00","text":"謝謝你。感謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:32.321000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:33.321000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:32.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:32.481000+08:00","text":"謝謝羅智強委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:32.981000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:38.409571+08:00","text":"官員跟你說欽佩你、認同你，你也相信，你實在是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-03-20T10:23:38.709571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-03-20T10:23:41.852429+08:00","text":"接下來請王義川委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時13分）主席，有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：人事長，我今天要給你肯定，你知道肯定什麼事嗎？我告訴你，我剛剛聽你跟王鴻薇在詢答過程當中，你說我們把五一恢復放假、勞動節恢復放假，你也不反對嘛，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不反對。"],["羅委員智強：不反對？非常謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是一個open discussion的場域。"],["羅委員智強：人事長用開放的態度，我希望我們民進黨的中央政府能夠效法你，為什麼呢？我想請教一下，我們臺灣有很多的驕傲，人事長知道我們的工時也是在世界上算是非常驕傲的成績，你知道吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得還好，按照我們的統計資料……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講啦！我告訴你，臺灣高工時，世界都在看，有些事情我們拼第一名，那是叫做世界都開心，臺灣人也開心，但有一個拼第一名、第二名的叫國恥，是什麼？就是工時，沒錯吧！如果我們工時拼到讓世界都看到的話，我跟人事長講，真的就是我們政府要好好去思考。我們蔡英文總統的一個名言，你聽過吧？勞工是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：「心肝肉」。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，勞工是心裡最軟的一塊，不要勞工變成肝臟最硬的一塊吧，對不對？所以今天我跟各位說，我國的工時高居世界主要各國第五高，在亞洲，我們也很驕傲，我們只輸給新加坡，所以再努力一點賣肝，把自己打造成所謂的肝硬化國家，我們就可以贏過新加坡。你希望我們的工時高過新加坡嗎？希望不希望，人事長？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得提升國家整體競爭力的要素，不見得只有靠增加工時，還有其他因素。"],["羅委員智強：當然啦，所以非常謝謝人事長，你站在這個體諒上，我跟大家還有跟人事長講，國民黨提出還假於民、恢復國定假，要恢復幾天當然社會大眾可以共同討論，可是如果我們今天的工時排行是全世界最後一名、亞洲最後一名，就是我們工時是最低的，那麼我跟你講，今天我們提還假於民，我就覺得一點正當性都沒有，因為臺灣的工時就是最低的嘛，那還要還假於民？可是現在不是啊！其實現代化的國家非常強調勞工權益，除了薪資問題以外，就是什麼問題，請問人事長？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：你說超時加班的問題。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！就是不要再肝硬化的問題、就是放假的問題嘛！所以我跟人事長說，我謝謝你今天的態度是對五一勞動節放假的不否定，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：本來就是需要大家一起討論的，我覺得……"],["羅委員智強：我請人事長也告訴大家，肯定一點，好不好？五一勞動節，勞工值不值得這個假？值不值得？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：五一勞動節，勞工已經在放假了。"],["羅委員智強：我說我們的基層公務員，我講的是公務員，變國定假日可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為這個議題說真的一直討論……"],["羅委員智強：我再問你教師節嘛，好不好？可不可以？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這些議題都可以提出來討論……"],["羅委員智強：我回頭告訴你，當然我必須講，對於哪一天放假，我沒有什麼太大的意見堅持，我覺得哪一天放假是讓人民共同來決定，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：好，但是我們政府本身先要把政策立場開放出來，沒錯吧？我想請教一下，我舉個例子，你看東京都政府現在研議要開放職員週休三日，從2025年4月1日起，然後東京都政府會改變彈性工時制的運用，讓職員每週可以多休一個平日，當然看起來，臺灣現在可能還很遙遠，但是研議啦。我接下來想請教一下，我們剛剛講還假於民這件事情，我想請問人事行政處總處有沒有針對這個題目已經開始進行內部討論了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還假於民的主體應該是勞動部那邊有整體的考慮。"],["羅委員智強：沒有，人事行政總處，我覺得剛剛你的意見很好，我想請問有沒有跟勞動部一起來討論、會商這件事情？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然放假日，我們一定會找教育部還有勞動部，大家一起來討論，甚至金管會，我們也一起來討論。"],["羅委員智強：非常好嘛！但是當然你要講你是主管公務人員嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：公務人員的部分，我跟委員報告，我們現在已經有還算不錯的彈性上下班這些機制……"],["羅委員智強：當然，我知道你要講。我還是回到原始問題，當然我們的工時，我也必須肯定，經過歷任政府的努力，工時是有在縮少、減少，沒錯吧？可是全世界也在減少啊，不是嗎？所以我們才會維持到高工時，變成是亞洲第二名啊！這才是我今天講的根本。我不知道人事長認不認同，我今天就跟你說，如果臺灣今天的工時是亞洲最低、第二低、第三低，我跟你講還假於民，說真的，我就覺得沒有底氣，沒錯吧？如果我們工時就已經很低了。可是現狀就不是嘛！所以我跟人事長說，我還是拜託你啦，我今天肯定你，剛剛我看王鴻薇講，你馬上講你也不否定，這個態度是正確的，但是還不夠。想想勞工是我們民進黨、我們以前蔡英文總統說心中最軟的一塊，那麼你就應該在這件事情的態度上，能夠往更前面走一步，人事總處如果態度積極一點，你就可以跟勞動部再做更多的會商。其實勞動部要比你更軟，對勞工更軟才對，它是業管、主管單位，我也會去問勞動部，但是我先問問人事長。我要跟人事長說，你所謂開放的態度，我覺得很好，但是還不夠，你今天應該以人事長的身分多多督促我們的政府，希望讓我們的勞工工時亞洲第二高這個污名，能夠在你跟勞動部的努力之下解除掉，好不好？拜託！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，我現在在思考的就是在既有的遊戲規則裡面增加，就是鼓勵公務人員休假，來降低他的working hours。"],["羅委員智強：你用了很多的方法、很多的努力，但我們的工時就亞洲第二高、世界第五高，這個是我們今天面臨最大的問題。最後，我也不為難你，因為你還是要遵從整個中央政府的意見，但至少我今天聽到就覺得希望滿滿。我看你的態度很開放，沒有很強硬說你就是反對，對不對？至少這個態度是一個好的起點，我們也會繼續努力，然後跟執政的政府協調，請中央政府真正把勞工當作心中最軟的一塊，不要讓大家加班加到肝硬化。","接下來我想請教您，去年3月27號我們也差不多這時間在這裡，你記得你當時承諾我什麼事情嗎？考你記憶不對，不能這樣考你。我直接說，你說你非常認同我的建議，就是你會在年底前提出公務員調薪法制化，現在年底過了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我該做的努力，我已經做了，我去年12月就送……"],["羅委員智強：你不能只有努力，人事長！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，因為行政院……"],["羅委員智強：去年你就跳我票。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是，因為行政院有固定的行政程序，什麼案子要排入院會討論……"],["羅委員智強：人事長，我先跟你講，我不否定你的努力，但是你也知道今天又不是學生考試在看成績，政府執政的努力是要看成果的。成績可能是個人的，今天考得好、考不好是個人的事情，可是你的成果攸關的是國家。所以我跟你說，我今天沒有要苛責你，可是你去年給我期待滿滿，我在去年3月質詢你的時候，你跟我講年底就會來做法制化，我當然就想那太好了，覺得很受振奮。可是到年底我看沒有，當然我知道你說你很努力，是中央政府不努力，也不能完全怪你，不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是中央政府不努力，我就跟你說，去年年底我把考卷交上去，老師、教授什麼時候要打分數，我不知道，那不是我……"],["羅委員智強：你的教授真的是懶惰。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不，教授有他的考慮。"],["羅委員智強：中央政府、教授懶惰，你考卷都交了，拖到現在也不……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我的考卷在12月底以前有送。"],["羅委員智強：請教人事長，你再努力一點，請教授不要再睡了，年底前把考卷批出來，好不好？再給你一個年底，好不好？你去年3月跟我講年底，今年3月我再跟你講年底，可以嗎？可不可以？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實我三不五時都去拜託。"],["羅委員智強：非常好！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我都有持續在做這件事情，因為行政院面對的法案數量也非常多，有固定的排程在處理。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝人事長。拜託人事長，我們一起努力一下，好不好？謝謝你。感謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。官員跟你說欽佩你、認同你，你也相信，你實在是……","接下來請王義川委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}