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麻煩有請法務部部長調查局局長要協助可以一起上來部長好 局長好今年部長"},{"start":33.379,"end":42.291,"text":"在辦調查局局長交接的時候下令要強化偵辦國安案件我今天看了法務部的報告"},{"start":44.151,"end":69.15,"text":"針對國安案件你們整理出了三種嚴重的類型一個是科技掏空一個是借選滲透一個是發展組織利用軍人拍攝投降影音這個是今天法務部所提出來的書面報告這部長名字掛的報告部長很清楚請問一下部長現在色誘透過色誘的方式來吸收成為共諜的類型嚴不嚴重"},{"start":73.426,"end":89.177,"text":"因為媒體說很嚴重嘛但你們的書面報告裡面提都沒提啊我想說是活在平行時空啊還是法務部在寫報告的時候有一些特殊的地雷要閃不敢寫色誘的類型嚴不嚴重媒體說很嚴重啊你們法務部的報告半個字都沒提啊嚴不嚴重"},{"start":100.101,"end":119.811,"text":"你總知道什麼類型嚴重 知道往哪邊加強偵辦啊那種被色誘的 輕功舔中的照片出來了就說是deep-seek結果給調查局去鑑定鑑定完的結果又不敢跟社會大眾講丟人現眼啊丟人現眼啊不是假訊息不是身為"},{"start":129.537,"end":155.115,"text":"啊法務部的報告半個字都不敢提來現在啊綠色共諜啊攻佔我們民主進步黨的府院黨啊這個在法務部報告的第幾類型啊因為我看那三個類型這裡面沒有辦法歸類為任何一類啊今天法務部的報告是不是要考慮重寫增設第四類型"},{"start":159.315,"end":167.35,"text":"部長請回答這邊我們是以整理目前較多的一個主要的這樣還不夠多一個報告這樣子還不夠多"},{"start":171.143,"end":197.725,"text":"這樣還覺得少就對了這個應該這個這個綠色所謂什麼這個共諜橫行那這部分我們都有查緝這個也是我們根據我們這些的一個情資而查到的我們一個一個來啦現在我在挑戰的是你法務部今天送來立法院的報告寫的對不對完不完整嘛這個我們寫的都說很正確就是把所有我們所謂的類型呈現出來嘛這個是放在第幾類型你指教的話我們再來加強嘛好"},{"start":198.766,"end":218.193,"text":"我就是有指教嘛 放不進你那三個類型嘛 那就請你加強嘛那這個類型的話我們可以 我們這是主要的類型嘛那我們並沒有否認所有 剛剛委員就講這些的一個類型好 我們一步一步來喔現在何仁杰遭到羈押吳釗燮長期待在身邊的親信針對何仁杰洩露國家機密這樣子的犯行"},{"start":225.782,"end":226.705,"text":"目前偵辦吳釗燮該不該一起偵辦"},{"start":233.524,"end":258.396,"text":"這個吳秘書長有沒有這些的一個問題我想這個是我不會干涉指導 干涉介入個案那這個檢察官如果有證據的話我想任何人只要涉及共諜我想檢察只有犯罪群體就會依法來偵辦說得很好嘛那大家就接著看嘛看是不是有偵辦嘛我現在喔 部長你看一下我上面寫不是要不要喔"},{"start":259.369,"end":272.033,"text":"要不要交給檢察官嘛現在我在談的是規範的事情是該不該嘛之前我公開記者會講過啦在國安法裡面就有關於洩漏國家機密的事情有沒有處罰過失犯這個是有處罰過失犯這個有處罰過失犯嘛這個過失的態樣要如何來加以界定應該注意沒有注意能夠注意卻沒有注意"},{"start":288.827,"end":300.122,"text":"養一個共諜在他身邊那麼久洩漏了國家機密他有沒有注意義務他有注意義務吧他有盡到他的注意義務嗎來 請教部長"},{"start":304.159,"end":315.793,"text":"這個是指過失或是指過失的一個洩漏交付等等的這些的一個行為嘛而不是說旁邊有供點的話他就那些就所以嘛現在部長在解釋法條的時候順便就把五招線給開脫了嘛是不是"},{"start":320.902,"end":342.416,"text":"沒什麼開脫啦 就是有合乎到犯罪的過程要見當然檢測只有犯罪性檢察官就會立案沒關係啊 全體國人大家都睜大眼睛繼續看嘛看我們檢察官辦案的標準嘛有沒有雙標嘛這個沒有雙標就依法偵辦有犯罪行為就是依法嚴判我們繼續往下看 何仁杰他受國家機密保護法26條列管的對象"},{"start":345.072,"end":359.167,"text":"這個我去調過了這個問題我問了非常久發函給外交部啊外交部是用普通件不是用密件回函所以確認了何仁杰他是國家親密保護法26條啊列管的對象下一個問題啊"},{"start":362.066,"end":384.065,"text":"針對有關於涉及國家安全的查核工作今天局長有報告嘛是屬於調查局負責幫忙查核的範圍嘛有一般的安全查核有特殊的安全查核就何仁傑的部分他算不算是屬於特殊安全考核的對象之一何仁傑他有經過一次的這個特殊查核什麼時候105年5月105年5月來看一下局長"},{"start":389.389,"end":417.508,"text":"只有一次嘛 來看一下涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法第五條第一項的規定第五條第一項說各機關辦理特殊查核應該在他出任在任或轉任第二條鎖定職務前辦理完畢所以你講的2016年的查核指的是他剛開始進入國家安全會議的時候所進行的查核嗎是好"},{"start":418.635,"end":445.266,"text":"那他到2017年隨著吳釗燮去總統府秘書長辦公室的時候有沒有在查核這個部分有還是沒有沒有在為什麼沒有按照法條的規定不是應該要在辦查核嗎那個是要由機關的人事單位來通知我們所以是總統府沒有通知總統府秘書長是沒有通知所以沒有辦就有關和人節的部分就是查過2016年對嘛現在喔 局長"},{"start":446.306,"end":458.982,"text":"我們是法律人啦所以我把法條翻出來給你看嘛我們一條一條來不要混在一起講啦第一個按照法律的規定他從國安會到總統府秘書長了"},{"start":460.649,"end":475.956,"text":"需不需要再辦查核按照法條的規定他在載任或出任載任或是調任這個特殊查核職務這是不是調任是嘛應該要辦應該要辦嘛說清楚嘛法條說應該要辦卻沒有辦現在我問題來了法條說他轉任應該要辦但是卻沒有提報上來要辦這個責任誰要負這個應該"},{"start":490.222,"end":511.011,"text":"推給人事機構的人說最基層的那個人事機構的人扛責對嘛現在就是法規上應該要做現實上沒有在做所以我才請教你嘛這件事情誰要負責還是沒有人需要負責反正清拆瞎下來啦"},{"start":514.059,"end":526.836,"text":"誰要負責這個是人事行政總署人事行政總署要負責喔哇 你這樣講可能人事長多在辦公室裡面想說我躺在床上也中槍蛤"},{"start":529.579,"end":557.758,"text":"總統府秘書長是沒有報查核結果是人事長要負責這樣對嗎沒有法條是人事行政總署主管啦好好好沒有關係那個可能到時候主席再排一下請人事長來啊因為調查局局長說他要負責啊沒有我是我要講清楚法條是人事行政總署主管但是這個要提出查核是用人機關要主管是嘛就是用人機關嘛那用人機關不就是吳釗燮嗎"},{"start":560.26,"end":584.411,"text":"到外交部的時候他有沒有在辦查核沒有嘛 是不是沒有來來來 看一下啦 剛剛你講的一千多種我都幫你整理出來了嘛外交部秘書 辦理部長室秘書業務人員 辦理部長室機要業務啊這個不就是何仁傑的位置嗎"},{"start":586.226,"end":608.644,"text":"到外交部的時候還有在辦特殊查核嗎有嗎 沒有吧所以現在變成的是什麼 用人機關要負責嘛總統府秘書長要負責嘛外交部部長要負責嘛都是吳釗燮待在身邊的人辦一次 後來都不用辦那不是吳釗燮要負責 誰要負責來 再往下看"},{"start":613.626,"end":616.889,"text":"吳尚宇有沒有辦特殊查核一樣啦這個是當初副總統辦公室的參議啦他有沒有辦特殊查核有還是沒有他為什麼可以不辦特殊查核放在副總統辦公室耶處理機密業務耶"},{"start":639.293,"end":654.682,"text":"結果現在這個共諜才發現原來我們的安全查核機制啊是形同具穩啦 形同具穩啦不僅和人節 和人節只辦一次 吳尚宇是連辦都沒有辦過誰要負責 誰要負責 用人機關要負責 剛剛你講的嘛所以現在清德要負責嗎"},{"start":664.062,"end":689.461,"text":"他辦公室的人啊人事單位要負責又推給人事人員啊人事單位要主動喊給我們來特殊查核是不是可以請調查局回去追究今天發函給用人機關依法該查核為什麼沒有查核你如果連這件事情都不敢做今天來這邊報告安全查核機制不是很好笑嗎"},{"start":690.709,"end":709.318,"text":"我們已經討論出來了嘛所以我現在要你問他嘛你當初為什麼沒有送來辦查核這不是國家安全的漏洞嗎法規上面應該要查核 現實上沒有查核如果這樣不是個問題 那什麼是問題如果這不是問題 什麼是問題"},{"start":717.012,"end":721.996,"text":"還是試射我們現在的總統很尷尬問都不敢問皮球踢來踢去現在不想要怎麼踢太尷尬了現在被抓起來這個連查核都沒查核蛤"},{"start":743.442,"end":757.178,"text":"這不是檢討制度的問題而已啊這個是依照現在的制度應該要做卻沒有做但是我們負責查核的機關法務部調下去顯然不敢追究責任"},{"start":759.677,"end":783.359,"text":"報委員 這個責任不是我們調查局要去追究我知道嘛 所以我要你去追究責任嘛在整個體制裡面我們是被動 我知道所以我要你發文去問用人機關啊機關什麼時候要用人 他要調什麼人這個是機關的人事的事件我們也不會知道沒錯 你說的都對所以我要你去問嘛去問用人機關啊你當初怎麼沒有報這個人來給我們調查局查核"},{"start":785.868,"end":809.649,"text":"我想這個不是我們調查局的這個不是你們調查局的喔應該要報給你們 卻沒有報給你們還不是調查局的職責 那是誰的職責這個才是最大的問題嘛對嘛 但是沒有人敢去追究用人機關的責任嘛事情不就是這樣嗎 超級清楚的沒有人敢去追究啊"},{"start":816.098,"end":837.162,"text":"來 請教一下部長我們洩密的對象啊洩漏給一般的國家跟洩漏給中國啊刑責上啊 法定刑應不應該區別對待 贊不贊成加重對中國洩密的刑責 贊不贊成這是一個立法政策的問題是 所以你贊不贊成這個要廣納意見要廣納意見嘛當初啊 邱泰山反對"},{"start":842.588,"end":870.66,"text":"他很明確啊 邱太三反對啊那奇怪了我們的總統不是把中國講成制定境外敵對勢力洩密給境外敵對勢力當然要加重處罰啊結果現在法務部要強化國安 要防止洩密連洩密給中國法定刑要提高這件事情都不敢講怕尷尬喔 怕尷尬是不是因為之前民進黨政府反對過啊"},{"start":874.025,"end":897.884,"text":"之前邱泰山反對過啊我第一次當立委的時候為了這個事情跟邱泰山辯論了幾次他反對啊到院會表決的時候民進黨一再阻擋不處理拖到二零二九年拖到二零一九年不得不處理了最後是什麼最後把提高對中國洩密的處罰封殺"},{"start":902.318,"end":915.459,"text":"把提高對中國泄密的處罰封殺啊難怪你今天只能夠軟軟的說要廣納社會意見法務部連這個基本態度都不敢表達被封殺了啦"},{"start":916.872,"end":937.971,"text":"你可以請你的幕僚把整個立法的歷程整理給你看啦在立法院公報裡面通通都有啦我希望喔我也利用這個機會公開呼籲我們國家機密保護法洩密給中共加重處罰台灣民眾黨立院黨團已經提案了希望招點審議到時候希望法務部能夠勇敢的支持謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:32:07.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:32:29.590000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩有請法務部部長，調查局局長要協助也可以一起上來。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T09:32:29.590000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:32:30.590000+08:00","text":"請部長、局長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:32:29.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:32:30.390000+08:00","text":"部長好、局長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:32:31.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:01.084000+08:00","text":"去年部長在調查局局長交接的時候下令要加強偵辦國安案件，我今天看了法務部的報告，你們針對國安案件整理出了三種嚴重的類型，一個是科技淘空，一個是介選滲透，一個是發展組織、利誘軍人拍攝投降影音，這是今天法務部所提出來的書面報告，是部長名字掛名的報告，部長應該很清楚。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:02.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:09.130000+08:00","text":"我請問一下部長，現在透過色誘的方式來吸收成為共諜的類型嚴不嚴重？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:09.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:13.426000+08:00","text":"這部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:13.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:17.168000+08:00","text":"因為媒體說很嚴重嘛，但你們的書面報告裡面提都沒提啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:17.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:25.374000+08:00","text":"我想說這是活在平行時空，還是法務部在寫報告的時候有一些特殊的地雷要閃、不敢寫？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:25.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:25.974000+08:00","text":"色誘這個類型嚴不嚴重？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:26.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:29.157000+08:00","text":"媒體說很嚴重，但你們法務部的報告半個字都沒提，嚴不嚴重？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:40.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:43.683000+08:00","text":"你總要先知道什麼類型嚴重，這樣才能知道要往哪邊加強偵辦啊！","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:45.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:57.210000+08:00","text":"那種被色誘的、親中舔共的，照片出來了就說是DeepSeek，結果給調查局去鑑定，鑑定完的結果又不敢跟社會大眾講，丟人現眼啊！","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:57.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:58.011000+08:00","text":"丟人現眼啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:59.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:59.431000+08:00","text":"不是假訊息？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:33:59.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:33:59.751000+08:00","text":"不是深偽？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:34:09.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:34:11.598000+08:00","text":"法務部的報告半個字都不敢提！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:34:16.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:34:25.048000+08:00","text":"現在綠色共諜攻占我們民主進步黨的府院黨，這個是在法務部報告的第幾類型？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:34:26.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:34:35.095000+08:00","text":"因為這在報告提到的那三個類型裡面沒有辦法歸類為任何一類啊，今天法務部的報告是不是要考慮重寫，增設第四類型？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:34:39.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:34:41.319000+08:00","text":"部長，請回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:34:42.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:34:46.789000+08:00","text":"我們是整理目前較多的、主要的類型來做報告。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:34:46.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:34:46.910000+08:00","text":"這樣還不夠多喔？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:34:51.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:34:51.804000+08:00","text":"這樣還覺得少就對了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:34:53.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:02.072000+08:00","text":"所謂綠色共諜橫行，這部分我們都有查緝，這也是根據我們的情資而查到的。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:02.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:09.939000+08:00","text":"我們一個一個來啦，現在我在挑戰的是你法務部今天送來立法院的報告寫得對不對、完不完整嘛！","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:10.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:14.623000+08:00","text":"這個我們寫得都很正確，就是把所有我們查證的類型呈現出來嘛。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:14.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:15.664000+08:00","text":"所以我就問你嘛，這個是放在第幾類型？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:16.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:17.605000+08:00","text":"如果委員有指教的話，我們再來加強嘛。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:17.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:19.806000+08:00","text":"好，我就是有指教嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:20.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:22.928000+08:00","text":"放不進你那三個類型嘛，就請你加強嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:23.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:28.530000+08:00","text":"有關這個類型的部分，我們這是主要的類型嘛，我們並沒有否認剛剛委員所講的類型。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:28.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:30.190000+08:00","text":"好，我們一步一步來！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:31.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:35.312000+08:00","text":"現在何仁傑遭到羈押，他是吳釗燮長期帶在身邊的親信啦！","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:35.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:46.705000+08:00","text":"針對何仁傑洩漏國家機密這樣的犯行，目前的偵辦該不該一起偵辦吳釗燮？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:53.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:35:59.487000+08:00","text":"吳秘書長有沒有這些的問題，我想這個我不會干涉、指導、介入個案……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:35:59.487000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:00.827000+08:00","text":"是、是、是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:00.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:07.831000+08:00","text":"檢察官如果有證據的話，任何人只要涉及共諜，我想檢察知有犯罪嫌疑就會依法來偵辦。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:07.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:08.331000+08:00","text":"說得很好嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:09.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:13.053000+08:00","text":"大家就接著看，看是不是有偵辦嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:15.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:23.990000+08:00","text":"部長，你看一下，我上面寫的不是「要不要」交給檢察官，現在我在談的是規範的事情，是「該不該」嘛！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:24.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:29.572000+08:00","text":"之前我公開記者會講過了，在國安法裡面，就有關於洩漏國家機密的事情有沒有處罰過失犯？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:29.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:29.732000+08:00","text":"這個是有處罰過失犯，但是……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:29.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:29.852000+08:00","text":"這個有處罰過失犯嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:29.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:30.613000+08:00","text":"過失的態樣要如何來加以界定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:30.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:57.139000+08:00","text":"應該注意沒有注意、能夠注意卻沒有注意，養一個共諜在他身邊那麼久，洩漏了國家機密，他有沒有注意義務？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:57.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:58.020000+08:00","text":"他有注意義務吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:58.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:36:59.922000+08:00","text":"他有盡到他的注意義務嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:36:59.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:00.122000+08:00","text":"請教部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:04.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:11.688000+08:00","text":"這個過失犯是指過失的洩漏、交付等等的這些行為嘛，而不是說旁邊有共諜的話，他就有那些構成過失犯……","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:12.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:12.609000+08:00","text":"所以嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:13.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:14.151000+08:00","text":"現在部長在解釋法條的時候……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:14.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:15.151000+08:00","text":"所以委員的看法值得再討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:14.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:15.773000+08:00","text":"順便就幫吳釗燮給開脫了嘛，是不是？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:20.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:26.626000+08:00","text":"沒什麼開脫啦，就是有合乎犯罪的構成要件時，檢察官在知有犯罪嫌疑時當然就會立案偵辦嘛。","quality":0.59},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:27.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:34.110000+08:00","text":"沒關係啊，全體國人大家都睜大眼睛繼續看嘛，看我們檢察官辦案的標準嘛，看有沒有雙標嘛！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:34.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:38.053000+08:00","text":"這個沒有雙標，就依法偵辦，有犯罪嫌疑就是依法嚴辦，不會有雙標問題。","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:38.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:37:58.286000+08:00","text":"來，我們繼續往下看，何仁傑是受國家機密保護法第二十六條列管的對象，這個我去調過了，這個問題我問了非常久，發函給外交部，外交部是用普通件而不是用密件回函，所以確認了何仁傑是國家機密保護法第二十六條列管的對象。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:37:58.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:38:19.221000+08:00","text":"下一個問題，針對有關於涉及國家安全的查核工作，今天局長有報告是屬於調查局負責幫忙查核的範圍嘛，有一般的安全查核，有特殊的安全查核，就何仁傑的部分，他算不算是屬於特殊安全考核的對象之一？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:38:19.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:38:22.904000+08:00","text":"何仁傑有經過一次的特殊查核。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:38:23.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:38:23.665000+08:00","text":"什麼時候？105年5月。105年5月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:38:24.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:38:29.949000+08:00","text":"局長，只有一次嘛？是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:38:32.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:38:48.382000+08:00","text":"好，來看一下涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法第五條第一項的規定，第五條第一項規定「各機關辦理特殊查核，應於擬任人員初任、再任或調任第二條所定職務前辦理完竣。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:38:49.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:38:56.827000+08:00","text":"」所以你講的2016年的查核，指的是他剛開始進入國家安全會議的時候所進行的查核嘛！是。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:38:57.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:04.397000+08:00","text":"好，他在2017年隨著吳釗燮去總統府秘書長辦公室的時候有沒有再查核？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:05.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:05.758000+08:00","text":"欸，這個部分當時……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:06.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:07.358000+08:00","text":"有還是沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:07.358000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:09.099000+08:00","text":"沒有再發函給我們查。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:09.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:09.419000+08:00","text":"為什麼沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:09.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:12.461000+08:00","text":"按照法條的規定，不是應該要再辦查核嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:12.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:15.902000+08:00","text":"那個是要由機關的人事單位來通知我們，我們是被動查核……","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:15.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:17.262000+08:00","text":"所以是總統府沒有通知？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:18.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:20.484000+08:00","text":"總統府秘書長室沒有通知，所以沒有辦？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:20.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:23.745000+08:00","text":"就有關何仁傑的部分，就是查過2016年的那一次。對嘛！","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:25.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:32.954000+08:00","text":"局長，我們是法律人，所以我把法條翻出來給你看嘛，我們一條一條來，不要混在一起講啦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:33.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:41.690000+08:00","text":"第一個，按照法律的規定，他從國安會轉到總統府秘書長室，需不需要再辦查核？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:42.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:48.033000+08:00","text":"按照法條的規定，他在初任、再任或是調任這個特殊查核職務的時候要辦理……","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:48.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:49.053000+08:00","text":"這個是不是調任？是嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:49.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:50.394000+08:00","text":"應該要辦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:50.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:50.774000+08:00","text":"應該要辦嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:51.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:52.355000+08:00","text":"說清楚嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:52.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:39:55.936000+08:00","text":"法條規定應該要辦，卻沒有辦，現在我的問題來了，法條規定他轉任應該要辦，但是卻沒有提報上來要辦，這個責任誰要負？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:39:55.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:10.222000+08:00","text":"這個應該可能是總統府的人事單位……","quality":0.267},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:10.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:17.485000+08:00","text":"推給人事機構的人，由最基層的人事機構的人扛責？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:17.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:18.766000+08:00","text":"機關要主動提出來……對嘛！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:18.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:28.030000+08:00","text":"現在就是法規上應該要做，現實上沒有在做，所以我才請教你這件事情誰要負責嘛？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:28.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:30.991000+08:00","text":"還是沒有人需要負責，反正隨便寫寫啦？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:34.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:35.361000+08:00","text":"誰要負責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:35.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:37.163000+08:00","text":"這個是人事行政總處。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:37.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:40.167000+08:00","text":"人事行政總處要負責喔？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:40.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:41.309000+08:00","text":"哇，你這樣講，可能……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:41.309000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:42.309000+08:00","text":"法規是人事行政總處……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:41.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:46.816000+08:00","text":"人事長在辦公室裡面想說我躺在床上也中槍？啊？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:49.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:54.383000+08:00","text":"總統府秘書長室沒有報查核，結果是人事長要負責，這樣對嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:55.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:57.985000+08:00","text":"法條是人事行政總處主管啦，但是這個……","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:58.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:40:59.566000+08:00","text":"好啦，沒有關係……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:59.566000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:00.566000+08:00","text":"查核是用人機關要主動提出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:40:59.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:06.571000+08:00","text":"可能到時候主席再安排一下請人事長來啦，因為調查局局長說他要負責啦！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:07.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:13.615000+08:00","text":"沒有，我要講清楚，法條是人事行政總處主管，但是提出查核的是用人機關要主動提出。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:14.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:15.997000+08:00","text":"是嘛，就是用人機關嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:15.997000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:16.997000+08:00","text":"用人機關要主動提出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:16.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:17.758000+08:00","text":"用人機關不就是吳釗燮嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:20.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:22.381000+08:00","text":"到外交部的時候他有沒有再辦查核？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:23.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:25.502000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛，是不是沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:25.502000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:27.123000+08:00","text":"到外交部要看他的職務是不是屬於那1,328個關鍵職務。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:27.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:33.486000+08:00","text":"來，看一下啦，剛剛你講的那一千多種，我都幫你整理出來了嘛！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:34.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:44.411000+08:00","text":"外交部秘書、辦理部長室秘書業務人員、辦理部長室機要業務，這不就是何仁傑的位置嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:46.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:51.230000+08:00","text":"到外交部的時候還有再辦特殊查核嗎？有嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:51.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:51.530000+08:00","text":"沒有吧？沒有。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:53.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:55.213000+08:00","text":"所以現在變成什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:55.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:41:56.394000+08:00","text":"用人機關要負責嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:41:57.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:08.343000+08:00","text":"總統府秘書長要負責嘛，外交部部長要負責嘛，都是吳釗燮帶在身邊的人，辦一次查核後就都不用辦了，那不是吳釗燮要負責誰要負責？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:08.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:13.926000+08:00","text":"再往下看，吳尚雨有沒有辦特殊查核？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:13.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:15.928000+08:00","text":"一樣啦，這個是當初副總統辦公室的參議啦，他有沒有辦特殊查核？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:15.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:16.028000+08:00","text":"有還是沒有？沒有。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:16.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:16.468000+08:00","text":"他為什麼可以不辦特殊查核？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:16.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:16.689000+08:00","text":"放在副總統辦公室欸！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:16.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:17.689000+08:00","text":"用人機關……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:16.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:46.217000+08:00","text":"處理機密業務欸，結果現在因為這個共諜案才發現原來我們的安全查核機制是形同具文啦！","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:47.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:48.078000+08:00","text":"形同具文啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:49.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:52.801000+08:00","text":"不僅何仁傑，何仁傑只辦一次，吳尚雨是連辦都沒有辦過，誰要負責？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:52.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:53.041000+08:00","text":"誰要負責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:42:53.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:42:54.682000+08:00","text":"用人機關要負責，剛剛你講的嘛，所以是賴清德要負責嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:04.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:04.983000+08:00","text":"他辦公室的人啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:06.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:08.906000+08:00","text":"人事單位要負責。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:08.906000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:09.906000+08:00","text":"人事單位要負責？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:08.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:09.927000+08:00","text":"又推給人事人員了！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:10.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:13.329000+08:00","text":"沒有，人事單位要主動函給我們來辦理特殊查核。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:13.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:16.111000+08:00","text":"是不是可以請調查局回去追究？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:17.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:23.117000+08:00","text":"今天發函給用人機關，依法該查核為什麼沒有查核？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:23.117000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:24.418000+08:00","text":"我們是被動的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:24.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:29.461000+08:00","text":"你如果連這件事情都不敢做，今天來這邊報告安全查核機制不是很好笑嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:30.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:35.551000+08:00","text":"我們已經討論出來了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:35.551000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:36.872000+08:00","text":"報告委員，目前的機制我們是被動的來接受用人機關來函查核……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:36.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:44.636000+08:00","text":"對嘛，所以我現在你問它當初為什麼沒有送來辦查核，這不是國家安全的漏洞嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:44.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:48.898000+08:00","text":"法規上面應該要查核，現實上沒有查核，如果這樣不是個問題，那什麼是問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:48.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:49.318000+08:00","text":"如果這不是問題，什麼是問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:57.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:43:58.693000+08:00","text":"還是事涉我們現在的總統，很尷尬，問都不敢問？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:43:58.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:00.555000+08:00","text":"皮球踢來踢去，現在不曉得要怎麼踢，太尷尬了！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:01.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:01.916000+08:00","text":"現在被抓起來的這個連查核都沒查核啊！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:23.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:37.158000+08:00","text":"這不是檢討制度的問題而已，這是依照現在的制度，應該要做卻沒有做，但是我們負責查核的機關──法務部調查局顯然不敢追究責任啊！","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:39.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:41.659000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個責任不是我們調查局要去追究，我們……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:41.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:44.481000+08:00","text":"我知道嘛，所以我要你去追究責任嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:44.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:46.804000+08:00","text":"在整個體制裡面我們是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:47.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:49.466000+08:00","text":"被動，我知道，所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:49.466000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:50.466000+08:00","text":"對，我們是被動的，但機關……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:49.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:51.107000+08:00","text":"所以我要你發文去問用人機關啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:51.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:56.112000+08:00","text":"機關什麼時候要用人、要調什麼人，這個是機關人事的權限，我們也不會知道……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:56.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:44:57.974000+08:00","text":"沒錯，你說的都對，所以我要你去問嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:44:58.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:03.338000+08:00","text":"去問用人機關當初怎麼沒有報給調查局查核？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:05.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:08.210000+08:00","text":"我想這個不是我們調查局的職責。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:08.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:09.191000+08:00","text":"這不是你們調查局？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:10.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:16.918000+08:00","text":"應該要報給你們卻沒有報，不是調查局的職責，是誰的職責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:16.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:18.019000+08:00","text":"這才是最大的問題！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳局長白立","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:18.019000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:20+08:00","text":"用人機關的職責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:20+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:26.486000+08:00","text":"對，但是沒有人敢去追究用人機關的責任，事情不就是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:26.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:29.428000+08:00","text":"超級清楚的，沒有人敢去追究！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:36.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:46.960000+08:00","text":"請教部長，洩密的對象，洩漏給一般的國家跟洩漏給中國，刑責上法定刑應不應該區別對待？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:47.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:50.881000+08:00","text":"贊不贊成加重對中國洩密的刑責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:50.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:51.121000+08:00","text":"贊不贊成？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:51.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:53.121000+08:00","text":"這是立法政策的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:53.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:54.102000+08:00","text":"是，所以你贊不贊成？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:55.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:45:55.522000+08:00","text":"要廣納意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:45:56.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:46:15.733000+08:00","text":"當初邱太三反對，他很明確反對，奇怪，我們的總統不是把中國講成是境外敵對勢力，洩密給境外敵對勢力當然要加重處罰！","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:46:17.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:46:27.999000+08:00","text":"結果現在法務部要強化國安、要防止洩密，連洩密給中國法定刑要提高，這件事情都不敢講，怕尷尬是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:46:29.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:46:30.640000+08:00","text":"怕因為之前民進黨政府反對過？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:46:34.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:47:14.798000+08:00","text":"之前邱太三反對過，我第一次當立委的時候，為這件事情跟邱太三辯論過幾次，他反對，到院會表決的時候，民進黨一再阻擋、不處理，拖到2019年，不得不處理，最後把提高對中國洩密的處罰封殺，難怪你今天只能夠軟軟地說要廣納社會意見，法務部連基本態度都不敢表達。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:47:14.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:47:15.439000+08:00","text":"被封殺了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:47:16.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:47:30.764000+08:00","text":"你可以請幕僚把整個立法歷程整理給你看，在立法院公報裡面通通都有，我也利用機會公開呼籲，國家機密保護法洩密給中共加重處罰！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-04-21T09:47:31.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T09:47:37.971000+08:00","text":"台灣民眾黨立院黨團已經提案，希望早點審議，到時候希望法務部能夠勇敢地支持，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T09:47:38.471000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T09:47:41.613857+08:00","text":"下一位請林倩綺委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":409,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時32分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請法務部部長，調查局局長要協助也可以一起上來。"],["主席：請部長、局長。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好、局長好。去年部長在調查局局長交接的時候下令要加強偵辦國安案件，我今天看了法務部的報告，你們針對國安案件整理出了三種嚴重的類型，一個是科技淘空，一個是介選滲透，一個是發展組織、利誘軍人拍攝投降影音，這是今天法務部所提出來的書面報告，是部長名字掛名的報告，部長應該很清楚。我請問一下部長，現在透過色誘的方式來吸收成為共諜的類型嚴不嚴重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分……"],["黃委員國昌：因為媒體說很嚴重嘛，但你們的書面報告裡面提都沒提啊！我想說這是活在平行時空，還是法務部在寫報告的時候有一些特殊的地雷要閃、不敢寫？色誘這個類型嚴不嚴重？媒體說很嚴重，但你們法務部的報告半個字都沒提，嚴不嚴重？你總要先知道什麼類型嚴重，這樣才能知道要往哪邊加強偵辦啊！那種被色誘的、親中舔共的，照片出來了就說是DeepSeek，結果給調查局去鑑定，鑑定完的結果又不敢跟社會大眾講，丟人現眼啊！丟人現眼啊！不是假訊息？不是深偽？法務部的報告半個字都不敢提！","現在綠色共諜攻占我們民主進步黨的府院黨，這個是在法務部報告的第幾類型？因為這在報告提到的那三個類型裡面沒有辦法歸類為任何一類啊，今天法務部的報告是不是要考慮重寫，增設第四類型？部長，請回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是整理目前較多的、主要的類型來做報告。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣還不夠多喔？這樣還覺得少就對了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所謂綠色共諜橫行，這部分我們都有查緝，這也是根據我們的情資而查到的。"],["黃委員國昌：我們一個一個來啦，現在我在挑戰的是你法務部今天送來立法院的報告寫得對不對、完不完整嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們寫得都很正確，就是把所有我們查證的類型呈現出來嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就問你嘛，這個是放在第幾類型？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果委員有指教的話，我們再來加強嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我就是有指教嘛！放不進你那三個類型嘛，就請你加強嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關這個類型的部分，我們這是主要的類型嘛，我們並沒有否認剛剛委員所講的類型。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們一步一步來！現在何仁傑遭到羈押，他是吳釗燮長期帶在身邊的親信啦！針對何仁傑洩漏國家機密這樣的犯行，目前的偵辦該不該一起偵辦吳釗燮？"],["鄭部長銘謙：吳秘書長有沒有這些的問題，我想這個我不會干涉、指導、介入個案……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官如果有證據的話，任何人只要涉及共諜，我想檢察知有犯罪嫌疑就會依法來偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：說得很好嘛！大家就接著看，看是不是有偵辦嘛。部長，你看一下，我上面寫的不是「要不要」交給檢察官，現在我在談的是規範的事情，是「該不該」嘛！之前我公開記者會講過了，在國安法裡面，就有關於洩漏國家機密的事情有沒有處罰過失犯？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是有處罰過失犯，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：這個有處罰過失犯嘛！過失的態樣要如何來加以界定？應該注意沒有注意、能夠注意卻沒有注意，養一個共諜在他身邊那麼久，洩漏了國家機密，他有沒有注意義務？他有注意義務吧？他有盡到他的注意義務嗎？請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個過失犯是指過失的洩漏、交付等等的這些行為嘛，而不是說旁邊有共諜的話，他就有那些構成過失犯……"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛！現在部長在解釋法條的時候……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以委員的看法值得再討論……"],["黃委員國昌：順便就幫吳釗燮給開脫了嘛，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒什麼開脫啦，就是有合乎犯罪的構成要件時，檢察官在知有犯罪嫌疑時當然就會立案偵辦嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啊，全體國人大家都睜大眼睛繼續看嘛，看我們檢察官辦案的標準嘛，看有沒有雙標嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有雙標，就依法偵辦，有犯罪嫌疑就是依法嚴辦，不會有雙標問題。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們繼續往下看，何仁傑是受國家機密保護法第二十六條列管的對象，這個我去調過了，這個問題我問了非常久，發函給外交部，外交部是用普通件而不是用密件回函，所以確認了何仁傑是國家機密保護法第二十六條列管的對象。","下一個問題，針對有關於涉及國家安全的查核工作，今天局長有報告是屬於調查局負責幫忙查核的範圍嘛，有一般的安全查核，有特殊的安全查核，就何仁傑的部分，他算不算是屬於特殊安全考核的對象之一？"],["陳局長白立：何仁傑有經過一次的特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候？"],["陳局長白立：105年5月。"],["黃委員國昌：105年5月。局長，只有一次嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來看一下涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法第五條第一項的規定，第五條第一項規定「各機關辦理特殊查核，應於擬任人員初任、再任或調任第二條所定職務前辦理完竣。」所以你講的2016年的查核，指的是他剛開始進入國家安全會議的時候所進行的查核嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，他在2017年隨著吳釗燮去總統府秘書長辦公室的時候有沒有再查核？"],["陳局長白立：欸，這個部分當時……"],["黃委員國昌：有還是沒有？"],["陳局長白立：沒有再發函給我們查。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼沒有？按照法條的規定，不是應該要再辦查核嗎？"],["陳局長白立：那個是要由機關的人事單位來通知我們，我們是被動查核……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是總統府沒有通知？總統府秘書長室沒有通知，所以沒有辦？"],["陳局長白立：就有關何仁傑的部分，就是查過2016年的那一次。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！局長，我們是法律人，所以我把法條翻出來給你看嘛，我們一條一條來，不要混在一起講啦。第一個，按照法律的規定，他從國安會轉到總統府秘書長室，需不需要再辦查核？"],["陳局長白立：按照法條的規定，他在初任、再任或是調任這個特殊查核職務的時候要辦理……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是不是調任？是嘛！"],["陳局長白立：應該要辦。"],["黃委員國昌：應該要辦嘛！說清楚嘛！法條規定應該要辦，卻沒有辦，現在我的問題來了，法條規定他轉任應該要辦，但是卻沒有提報上來要辦，這個責任誰要負？"],["陳局長白立：這個應該可能是總統府的人事單位……"],["黃委員國昌：推給人事機構的人，由最基層的人事機構的人扛責？"],["陳局長白立：機關要主動提出來……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！現在就是法規上應該要做，現實上沒有在做，所以我才請教你這件事情誰要負責嘛？還是沒有人需要負責，反正隨便寫寫啦？誰要負責？"],["陳局長白立：這個是人事行政總處。"],["黃委員國昌：人事行政總處要負責喔？哇，你這樣講，可能……"],["陳局長白立：法規是人事行政總處……"],["黃委員國昌：人事長在辦公室裡面想說我躺在床上也中槍？啊？總統府秘書長室沒有報查核，結果是人事長要負責，這樣對嗎？"],["陳局長白立：法條是人事行政總處主管啦，但是這個……"],["黃委員國昌：好啦，沒有關係……"],["陳局長白立：查核是用人機關要主動提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：可能到時候主席再安排一下請人事長來啦，因為調查局局長說他要負責啦！"],["陳局長白立：沒有，我要講清楚，法條是人事行政總處主管，但是提出查核的是用人機關要主動提出。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，就是用人機關嘛！"],["陳局長白立：用人機關要主動提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：用人機關不就是吳釗燮嗎？到外交部的時候他有沒有再辦查核？沒有嘛，是不是沒有？"],["陳局長白立：到外交部要看他的職務是不是屬於那1,328個關鍵職務。"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下啦，剛剛你講的那一千多種，我都幫你整理出來了嘛！外交部秘書、辦理部長室秘書業務人員、辦理部長室機要業務，這不就是何仁傑的位置嗎？到外交部的時候還有再辦特殊查核嗎？有嗎？沒有吧？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在變成什麼？用人機關要負責嘛！總統府秘書長要負責嘛，外交部部長要負責嘛，都是吳釗燮帶在身邊的人，辦一次查核後就都不用辦了，那不是吳釗燮要負責誰要負責？","再往下看，吳尚雨有沒有辦特殊查核？一樣啦，這個是當初副總統辦公室的參議啦，他有沒有辦特殊查核？有還是沒有？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：他為什麼可以不辦特殊查核？放在副總統辦公室欸！"],["陳局長白立：用人機關……"],["黃委員國昌：處理機密業務欸，結果現在因為這個共諜案才發現原來我們的安全查核機制是形同具文啦！形同具文啦！不僅何仁傑，何仁傑只辦一次，吳尚雨是連辦都沒有辦過，誰要負責？誰要負責？用人機關要負責，剛剛你講的嘛，所以是賴清德要負責嗎？他辦公室的人啊！"],["陳局長白立：人事單位要負責。"],["黃委員國昌：人事單位要負責？又推給人事人員了！"],["陳局長白立：沒有，人事單位要主動函給我們來辦理特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是可以請調查局回去追究？今天發函給用人機關，依法該查核為什麼沒有查核？"],["陳局長白立：我們是被動的……"],["黃委員國昌：你如果連這件事情都不敢做，今天來這邊報告安全查核機制不是很好笑嗎？我們已經討論出來了嘛！"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，目前的機制我們是被動的來接受用人機關來函查核……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以我現在你問它當初為什麼沒有送來辦查核，這不是國家安全的漏洞嗎？法規上面應該要查核，現實上沒有查核，如果這樣不是個問題，那什麼是問題？如果這不是問題，什麼是問題？還是事涉我們現在的總統，很尷尬，問都不敢問？皮球踢來踢去，現在不曉得要怎麼踢，太尷尬了！現在被抓起來的這個連查核都沒查核啊！這不是檢討制度的問題而已，這是依照現在的制度，應該要做卻沒有做，但是我們負責查核的機關──法務部調查局顯然不敢追究責任啊！"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，這個責任不是我們調查局要去追究，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我知道嘛，所以我要你去追究責任嘛！"],["陳局長白立：在整個體制裡面我們是……"],["黃委員國昌：被動，我知道，所以……"],["陳局長白立：對，我們是被動的，但機關……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我要你發文去問用人機關啊！"],["陳局長白立：機關什麼時候要用人、要調什麼人，這個是機關人事的權限，我們也不會知道……"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯，你說的都對，所以我要你去問嘛！去問用人機關當初怎麼沒有報給調查局查核？"],["陳局長白立：我想這個不是我們調查局的職責。"],["黃委員國昌：這不是你們調查局？應該要報給你們卻沒有報，不是調查局的職責，是誰的職責？這才是最大的問題！"],["陳局長白立：用人機關的職責。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但是沒有人敢去追究用人機關的責任，事情不就是這樣嗎？超級清楚的，沒有人敢去追究！","請教部長，洩密的對象，洩漏給一般的國家跟洩漏給中國，刑責上法定刑應不應該區別對待？贊不贊成加重對中國洩密的刑責？贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是立法政策的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以你贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：要廣納意見。"],["黃委員國昌：當初邱太三反對，他很明確反對，奇怪，我們的總統不是把中國講成是境外敵對勢力，洩密給境外敵對勢力當然要加重處罰！結果現在法務部要強化國安、要防止洩密，連洩密給中國法定刑要提高，這件事情都不敢講，怕尷尬是不是？怕因為之前民進黨政府反對過？之前邱太三反對過，我第一次當立委的時候，為這件事情跟邱太三辯論過幾次，他反對，到院會表決的時候，民進黨一再阻擋、不處理，拖到2019年，不得不處理，最後把提高對中國洩密的處罰封殺，難怪你今天只能夠軟軟地說要廣納社會意見，法務部連基本態度都不敢表達。被封殺了啦！你可以請幕僚把整個立法歷程整理給你看，在立法院公報裡面通通都有，我也利用機會公開呼籲，國家機密保護法洩密給中共加重處罰！台灣民眾黨立院黨團已經提案，希望早點審議，到時候希望法務部能夠勇敢地支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}