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民主不容造假"},{"start":52.745,"end":66.616,"text":"對不對民主絕對不容造假不管是過去國民黨執政時期的投票的作票它會影響選舉的公正或者是現在已經越來越少但還是會發生的會選"},{"start":68.397,"end":95.037,"text":"只要會選就會有刑責可能他當選也無效所以在罷免這件事情上一旦在連署涉及造假他也應當有同樣的民主不容造假的那個法律的效力還有政治的效力這是第一件事所以說民主不容造假不管是藍的綠的不分對象都應當查辦如果有違法事證"},{"start":96.178,"end":116.408,"text":"所以說呢 現在中選會依職務告發部長你知道有幾件嗎柯委員不知道 四十一件四十一件嘛 這四十一件是全部都是罷籃的嗎就是各黨派都有不是 所以說中選會依職務告發的四十一件有藍有綠 有違法事證就要辦因為民主不容造假 這第一件事情"},{"start":120.45,"end":147.117,"text":"第二件事情現在來偵辦的這些事件裡頭呢其實法是誰修的上個會期國民黨翁小林委員所提案的選罷法98-2條所以法是國民黨修的第二個證據是誰提供的我以台北市來講台北市所提供的這些證據是台北市的地方選委會"},{"start":149.062,"end":160.253,"text":"提供的地方選委會的主委是身兼台北市政府的秘書長也是蔣萬安親自任命的李泰鑫主委他親自在議會的備詢就說了"},{"start":163.058,"end":184.794,"text":"所有在台北市的死人連署 幽靈連署 造假連署都是誰查對 誰提報的呢都是戶政事務所 以及台北市的選委會所以現在檢調所偵辦的證據是誰提供的 就台北市而言就是台北市政府所提供的嘛 對不對這第二件事情"},{"start":185.354,"end":212.473,"text":"法是誰修的國民黨修的證據是誰提供的到目前為止是地方選委會所查對提報的我這樣理解正確吧第三個犯罪就是犯罪違法就是違法不論是誰該辦就辦司法偵辦的核心是證據而不是政治我已經N次說明了所以說剛剛的證據"},{"start":214.696,"end":234.78,"text":"提供給檢調的是台北市長蔣萬安主管的選委會提供的我不曉得為什麼有委員一直在這裡為難官員而且就個案好 我是當事人我在台下聽到真的是我實在很不想講我的案子吳思瑤的死亡連署86位佔4.09%"},{"start":238.598,"end":250.863,"text":"韓國瑜當初的死亡連署佔0.3%郭台銘那時候的死亡連署甚至連0.01%都不到伍思堯這一區的死亡幽靈連署高達86件佔4.09%錯假連署整個錯誤率高達34.5%這是台北市選委會提供的所以如果是檢察官辦案"},{"start":262.947,"end":290.898,"text":"他就循證據去辦嘛 我要把事情講清楚我不容有些人在這裡混淆 然後來鬥臭司法來施壓司法 我真的覺得比遺憾更遺憾好 接下來今天的主題喔 保密防諜人人有責防範共諜呢 就請國會一起來支持國安法案喔 夏業我年紀小的時候 我是沒有什麼機會看童話故事"},{"start":291.98,"end":300.925,"text":"我年紀小的時候我是翻著爸爸帶回家的黨外雜誌在看的所以對於過去很多戒嚴時期的軍閥大神"},{"start":302.483,"end":323.477,"text":"1980年的美麗島事件的軍閥大審這在那個年代讓很多長一輩的台灣人對於軍審這件事情它存有一個時代遺留的標籤就是過去國民黨執政的戒嚴時期軍審會拿來打壓迫害政治犯"},{"start":324.229,"end":342.948,"text":"美麗島的軍閥大神就是我們這一代人印象深刻的事情所以要撕掉這個標籤新的要推動的軍事審查制度不能再犯嘛未來在對象上不可能再發生破壞政治犯的狀況嘛還是國防部要來講因為對象不一樣嘛"},{"start":346.568,"end":374.746,"text":"委員好 針對剛剛委員提的這個部分其實這次的修正第一個就是我們對象部分一定是限定是現役軍人所以不會對平民也不會對政治犯現在也沒有這所謂的政治犯的辦案的狀況您先回答這個部分 下一頁我們要撕掉軍事審判在台灣人民心中另外一個標籤就是洪仲秋事件當初他沒有公開透明的審判機制還有軍中的階級"},{"start":376.067,"end":388.068,"text":"被霸凌所以軍中人權那個時候大家站出來以致於我們的軍事審判制度做了革新未來如果恢復的軍事審判制度會不會再發生同樣的洪仲秋的事件"},{"start":388.854,"end":412.523,"text":"報告委員 這個案件其實給我們的啟示也是非常大所以我們這次的修正部分當然會針對當時的審判制度是不是有要修正的部分一定會來檢討的 是所以不會再有下一個這樣的事件我們在新的軍事審判制度這個制度重新改革研議的時候一定要提醒彼此也要告訴社會再下一頁"},{"start":414.226,"end":435.995,"text":"現在早期的戒嚴時期軍審會拿來對抗對付政治犯然後在過去洪仲秋那個時代可能會拿來對於一般軍中的一般案件現在我們如果要恢復軍事審判是因應新生也不是新生事物啦而是說越來越嚴重的共諜滲透的事件嘛這是現在我們重啟這個制度的一個很重要的現在"},{"start":442.478,"end":451.924,"text":"我們要因應的危機所以說以這幾年來我看到共諜案的起訴人數是成長了400%從2024年已經到64位2021年只有16位"},{"start":458.368,"end":470.433,"text":"而我們一再的大家非常的訝異對於軍人佔共諜的比例不管退役或現役居然加總是佔66%也因為這樣子的與日俱增的共諜威脅在軍中"},{"start":478.516,"end":505.542,"text":"所以我們要嚴議啟動恢復軍事審判這是因應新的狀況我認為社會也會支持所以未來軍事審判重開機的話因為對象跟範圍都明確的界定所以不會針對一般平民他針對的是現役軍人而且是現役軍人當中犯陸海空軍刑法第二邊當中的重要的"},{"start":508.228,"end":521.526,"text":"所以說未來的制度配套非常重要它限縮了對象跟範圍是限於軍人職務上的犯罪為主如違反效忠國家職責罪章等等"},{"start":522.347,"end":530.352,"text":"然後未來我們要啟動配套的修法包括軍事法院組織法軍事檢察署的組織法也要來制定軍法官的人事條例要強化從事偵審的軍法官必須具備一定程度的軍事歷練然後呢在符合公平審判的原則正當法律程序的原則之下呢也要來採行全面強制的辯護廢除階級管轄等等也就是新的"},{"start":552.827,"end":565.371,"text":"恢復的軍事審判跟過去的軍事審判完全不一樣是不是是沒錯這個剛委員所提示的這些都是我們目前在修法的一個方向跟這個範圍那現在演繹到哪裡"},{"start":568.452,"end":587.329,"text":"目前我們針對細部條文都有在做調整那剛才也跟司法院副局長也講了我們這禮拜會跟司法院做一個交流跟協調所以預計如果跟司法院會嫌然後後續可能送到立法院審議的啟程會是落在"},{"start":588.936,"end":597.383,"text":"目前的規劃我們是在下半年會希望所以下會期渴望我們下半年會提到行政院去一下看行政院什麼時候再送過來所以我們有充分的時間我想未來在委員會各類的公聽會各類的制度的討論是必要的我們要撕下過去軍審在台灣人民心中那個負面的觀感負面的標籤這是我們努力的方向下一頁"},{"start":615.416,"end":633.282,"text":"但是共諜是無孔不入無所不在的宗教學術藝人網紅黑道乃至於民意代表這是過去我們所會種的各個面向而法務部今天的報告書裡頭部長你們特別提到科技掏空"},{"start":634.102,"end":637.945,"text":"利用這個危害經濟安全的這個危害產業競爭力的這種併購啦或者是挖角啦或者是來竊取商業機密等等的產業的危機還有借選的滲透是第二類"},{"start":650.354,"end":674.003,"text":"第三類當然就是軍中相關的發展組織特別是用利誘或色誘的方式來拍攝投降的影音來瓦解我方國軍的士氣來破壞軍紀無所不在行太多層面廣所以說呢防範共諜軍事審判只是其中一部分他是針對現役軍人他出賣國家違背職務下一頁"},{"start":679.025,"end":700.555,"text":"但是在社會面是很重要的禮拜六凱道超過五萬人站出來拒絕統戰人民的怒吼響徹雲霄另外一個事情呢是2024年啊公民監督聯盟對於立法院的年度代表字是什麼部長知道嗎"},{"start":702.472,"end":728.977,"text":"就是共匪的匪啊小心共匪有沒有在立法院呢居然2024年立法院的年度代表字被公民監督聯盟長期來監督觀察立法院的問證品質的居然匪這個字被貼上了立法院我覺得這個也是立法院要思緒的負面標籤所以怎麼做呢"},{"start":730.967,"end":758.795,"text":"民進黨推的國安實法如果立法院要撕掉那個匪的負面標籤請在野黨的委員一起來支持國安法案目前民進黨提出來的有實法喔我這邊就不贅述其實當中跟法務部跟國防部很多都相關譬如說反滲透法啦國家安全法等等可是目前為止光"},{"start":760.055,"end":787.482,"text":"立委附中登載報備就已經被擋了332次如果立法院要撕掉匪共匪就在立法院嗎這個標籤的話請藍白的委員不要再擋國安實法因為如果國安實法繼續擋我們想方設法想要針對軍事審判的制度提了好多配套的修法一樣擋住不好啊"},{"start":788.582,"end":799.797,"text":"對不對這是我們共同面對的困境跟僵局在下一頁不只如此啊藍白的委員不只反國安法案還推親中法案"},{"start":801.414,"end":830.393,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例國家安全戰略法不在即投票離島建設條例不只洗人口還要洗產地然後還要把國家安全戰略的總統職權要擴大到立法院來決議定之立法院可以監督甚至反滲透法的修正案還要限縮將刑事責任改為行政罰還天啊我們的立法院在扯後腿我們的立法院在鬥退擼尾"},{"start":831.954,"end":856.227,"text":"這只是現在在野黨的委員推出來的親中法案的冰山一角我真的很擔心今天召委排了我們未來想要恢復軍事審判有效的針對百分之六十六的軍人被滲透的這個對象來加強他的刑責加強他的防範透過一個更透明更公開的軍事審判制度可是你在立法院賣鬼啊"},{"start":860.114,"end":873.007,"text":"要怎麼辦下一頁剛剛的問題我知道你們很難回答因為連我是執政黨的黨團幹部我都很難回答我每天還在奮戰我最後要提醒喔"},{"start":874.315,"end":900.111,"text":"回到也是相關的主題中國的借選也是破壞台灣民主制度非常嚴重的一種破壞民主的行為法務部你們過去的專報提出幾大樣類境外資金的借選網路選舉的賭盤或是透過散佈假訊息的認知作戰我提醒你們有借選就有借罷"},{"start":901.909,"end":924.207,"text":"有介入選舉就會有介入罷免的未來的投票或是現在二階的連署都有可能就以現在發動罷免的幾個領銜人就以我自己的這一區罷免吳思耀的領銜人有非常明確的紅統背景"},{"start":925.188,"end":952.254,"text":"而罷免許智傑委員的領銜人他甚至也要查查他還有沒有具備中國籍我不知道這個要查所以說過去在選舉的時候都有選舉的專案嘛對不對那部長法務部針對有可能的會不會發生的境外勢力比照過去借選的方法現在來借罷介入罷免的民主"},{"start":953.581,"end":956.484,"text":"的這個手段你們會不會也啟動像選舉時期一樣的這種專案來強化"},{"start":962.02,"end":989.894,"text":"目前這個我們再來嚴厲我們請那個最高檢來嚴厲我要提醒你們因為同樣的都是境外敵對勢力透過各種方式不管認知作戰網路賭盤或是境外資金的介入來介入現在當然是在二階連署如果有未造的那就讓檢調去辦案但是這當中未來如果進入投票其實都很可能發生這個就會選舉叉叉"},{"start":990.914,"end":996.716,"text":"是所以你們要有選舉查查的專案比較民主的選舉我們的罷免也是民主制度的一環我們超前部署不分對象秉公處置因為我們捍衛的都是台灣中華民國的民主我在這裡提醒您好嗎提醒法務部那國防部的同仁我們繼續不曉得怎麼辦軍事審判制度如果就藍白在這裡任何國安法案都擋"},{"start":1019.025,"end":1029.961,"text":"我實在對於未來軍事審判制度要上路能不能夠有效來防範軍人的被滲透我都相對悲觀但我們不會放棄努力好嗎謝謝處長謝謝部長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:13:23.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:13:25.491000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T11:13:25.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:13:27.071000+08:00","text":"麻煩部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:13:27.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:13:30.092000+08:00","text":"等一下國防部的代表也要一起，就是王處長。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T11:13:30.092000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:13:34.242000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:13:34.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:13:52.095000+08:00","text":"也是非常遺憾，司法及法制委員會這個會期以來，不斷的、不斷的就個案來對官員為難，大家就來講制度、就來論法，一再的去講個案，而且甚至是當事人也要有起碼的利益迴避。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:13:53.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:14:03.566000+08:00","text":"針對剛剛王鴻薇委員所垂詢的事項，我想很簡要的還是需要做幾個歸納，第一個，民主不容造假，對不對？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:14:03.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:14:36.451000+08:00","text":"民主絕對不容造假，不管是過去國民黨執政時期的投票、作票，它會影響選舉的公正，或現在已經越來越少，但還是會發生的賄選，只要賄選就會有刑責，可能他當選也無效，所以在罷免這件事情上，一旦在連署涉及造假，他也應當有同樣民主不容造假的法律效力還有政治的效力，這是第一件事。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:14:37.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:14:51.861000+08:00","text":"所以說民主不容造假，如果有違法事證，不管是藍的、綠的，不分對象都應當查辦，所以說現在中選會依職務告發，部長知道有幾件嗎？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T11:14:51.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:14:52.761000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，41件。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:14:53.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:14:59.164000+08:00","text":"這41件全部都是罷藍的嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T11:14:59.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:15:00.345000+08:00","text":"各黨派都有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:15:01.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:15:06.388000+08:00","text":"所以中選會依職務告發的41件有藍有綠，有違法事證就要辦，因為民主不容造假，這是第一件事情。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:15:10.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:15:16.592000+08:00","text":"第二件事情，現在來偵辦的這些事件裡頭，其實法是誰修的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:15:17.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:15:30.015000+08:00","text":"上個會期國民黨翁曉玲委員所提案的選罷法第九十八條之二，所以法是國民黨修的，第二個，證據是誰提供的？","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:15:30.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:16:00.804000+08:00","text":"我以臺北市來講，臺北市所提供的這些證據是臺北市地方選委會提供的，地方選委會的主委是身兼臺北市政府的秘書長，也是蔣萬安親自任命的李泰興主委，他親自在議會的備詢就說了，所有在臺北市的死人連署、幽靈連署、造假連署都是誰查對、誰提報的呢？","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:16:01.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:16:09.030000+08:00","text":"都是戶政事務所以及臺北市的選委會，所以現在檢調所偵辦的證據是誰提供的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:16:09.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:16:14.193000+08:00","text":"就臺北市而言，就是臺北市政府所提供的，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:16:14.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:16:16.215000+08:00","text":"這第二件事情，法是誰修的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:16:16.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:16:19.197000+08:00","text":"國民黨修的，證據是誰提供的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:16:19.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:16:25.541000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，是地方選委會所查對、提報的，我這樣理解正確吧？正確。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:16:26.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:16:56.018000+08:00","text":"第三個，犯罪就是犯罪，違法就是違法，不論是誰，該辦就辦，司法偵辦的核心是證據而不是政治，我已經N次說明了，所以剛剛提到提供證據給檢調的是臺北市長蔣萬安主管的選委會，我不曉得為什麼有委員一直在這裡為難官員，而且是就個案。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:16:57.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:17:02.420000+08:00","text":"我是當事人，我在臺下聽到真的是，我實在很不想講我的案子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:17:03.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:17:45.152000+08:00","text":"吳思瑤的死亡連署86位，占4.09%，韓國瑜當初的死亡連署占0.3%，郭台銘那時的死亡連署甚至連0.01%都不到，吳思瑤這一區的死亡幽靈連署高達86件，占4.09%，錯假連署整個錯誤率高達34.5%，這是臺北市選委會提供的，所以如果是檢察官辦案，他就循證據去辦，我要把事情講清楚，我不容有些人在這裡混淆，然後來鬥臭司法、來施壓司法，我真的覺得比遺憾更遺憾。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:17:46.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:17:54.355000+08:00","text":"接下來是今天的主題，保密防諜，人人有責，防範共諜就請國會一起來支持國安法案。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:17:56.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:18:51.266000+08:00","text":"我年紀小的時候，我是沒有什麼機會看童話故事，我年紀小的時候，我是翻著爸爸帶回家的黨外雜誌在看的，所以對於過去很多戒嚴時期的軍法大審、1980年的美麗島事件的軍法大審，這在那個年代，讓很多長一輩的臺灣人對於軍審這件事情存有一個時代遺留的標籤，就是過去國民黨執政的戒嚴時期，軍審會拿來打壓迫害政治犯，美麗島的軍法大審就是我們這一代人印象深刻的事情，所以要撕掉這個標籤，新的、要推動的軍事審查制度不能再犯，未來在對象上不可能再發生迫害政治犯的狀況嘛？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:18:52.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:18:52.728000+08:00","text":"還是國防部要來講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:18:52.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:18:52.928000+08:00","text":"因為對象不一樣嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王處長正誼","start":"2025-04-21T11:18:56.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:18:56.768000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王處長正誼","start":"2025-04-21T11:18:57.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:19:05.174000+08:00","text":"針對剛剛委員提的這個部分，其實這次的修正，第一個就是我們對象部分一定是現役軍人……","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:19:06.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:19:08.656000+08:00","text":"所以不會對平民、也不會對政治犯嘛？是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:19:09.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:19:13.839000+08:00","text":"現在也沒有所謂的政治犯辦案的狀況，您先回答這個部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:19:15.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:19:38.048000+08:00","text":"我們要撕掉軍事審判在臺灣人民心中另外一個標籤，就是洪仲丘事件，當初他沒有公開透明的審判機制還有軍中的階級，他被霸凌，所以軍中人權……那個時候大家站出來，以至於我們的軍事審判制度做了革新，未來如果恢復的軍事審判制度會不會再發生同樣的洪仲丘事件？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王處長正誼","start":"2025-04-21T11:19:38.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:19:49.738000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個案件給我們的啟示也是非常大，這次修正當然會針對當時的審判制度是不是有要修正的部分，一定會來檢討、來修改。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:19:50.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:20:02.103000+08:00","text":"所以不會再有下一個這樣的事件，我們在新的軍事審判制度重新改革研議的時候，一定要提醒彼此，也要告訴社會。是。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:20:05.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:20:34.519000+08:00","text":"早期的戒嚴時期，軍審會拿來對抗、對付政治犯，在過去洪仲丘那個時代，可能會拿來對軍中的一般案件，現在如果我們要恢復軍事審判，是因應新生，也不是新生事務啦，而是越來越嚴重的共諜滲透事件，這是現在我們重啟這個制度一個很重要、必須因應的危機。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:20:34.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:21:16.318000+08:00","text":"所以這幾年來，我看到共諜案的起訴人數是成長了400%，2024年已經到64位，2021年只有16位，而大家一再非常訝異，對於軍人占共諜的比例，不管退役或現役居然加總是占66%，也因為這樣子與日俱增的共諜威脅在軍中，所以我們要研議啟動恢復軍事審判，這是因應新的狀況，我認為社會也會支持。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:21:18.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:21:35.522000+08:00","text":"未來軍事審判重開機的話，因為對象跟範圍都明確的界定，所以不會針對一般平民，它針對的是現役軍人，而且是現役軍人犯陸海空軍刑法第二編當中重要的……","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王處長正誼","start":"2025-04-21T11:21:35.522000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:21:36.875000+08:00","text":"軍事犯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:21:36.875000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:21:38.228000+08:00","text":"軍事犯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:21:38.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:21:51.506000+08:00","text":"所以未來的制度配套非常重要，它限縮的對象跟範圍是限於軍人職務上的犯罪為主，如違反效忠國家職責罪章等等。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:21:52.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:22:29.529000+08:00","text":"未來我們要啟動配套的修法，包括軍事法院組織法、軍事檢察署的組織法，也要來制定軍法官的人事條例，要強化從事偵審的軍法官必須具備一定程度的軍事歷練，然後在符合公平審判的原則、正當法律程序的原則之下，也要來採行全面強制的辯護、廢除階級管轄等等，也就是新的、恢復的軍事審判跟過去的軍事審判完全不一樣，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王處長正誼","start":"2025-04-21T11:22:29.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:22:31.290000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王處長正誼","start":"2025-04-21T11:22:31.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:22:34.931000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員所提示的這些都是我們目前在修法的方向跟範圍。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:22:34.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:22:35.371000+08:00","text":"現在研議到哪裡？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王處長正誼","start":"2025-04-21T11:22:38.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:22:50.443000+08:00","text":"目前我們針對細部條文都有在做調整，剛才司法院副秘書長也講了，我們這禮拜會跟司法院做交流協調跟溝通。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:22:50.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:22:57.309000+08:00","text":"所以如果跟司法院會銜後，預計後續送到立法院審議的期程可能會是落在？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"王處長正誼","start":"2025-04-21T11:22:58.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:23:00.998000+08:00","text":"目前的規劃，我們希望在下半年……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:23:02.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:23:02.959000+08:00","text":"所以下個會期我們可望好好討論？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"王處長正誼","start":"2025-04-21T11:23:03.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:23:03.580000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們下半年會提到行政院去，看行政院……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:23:03.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:23:03.860000+08:00","text":"是，看行政院什麼時候再送過來？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:23:03.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:23:07.243000+08:00","text":"OK，所以我們有充分的時間，我想未來在委員會、各類的公聽會，各類制度的討論是必要的，我們要撕下過去軍審在臺灣人民心中負面的觀感、負面的標籤，這是我們努力的方向。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:23:25.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:23:37.180000+08:00","text":"但是共諜是無孔不入、無所不在的，宗教、學術、藝人、網紅、黑道，乃至於民意代表，這是過去我們所彙整的各個面向。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:23:37.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:23:47.945000+08:00","text":"而法務部今天的報告書裡頭，部長，你們特別提到科技掏空，利用危害經濟安全、危害產業競爭力的這種併購啦或者是挖角啦，或者是來竊取商業機密等等產業的危機，還有介選的滲透，這是第二類。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:24:00.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:24:23.743000+08:00","text":"第三類當然就是軍中相關的發展組織，特別是用利誘或色誘的方式來拍攝投降的影音，來瓦解我方國軍的士氣、來破壞軍紀，無所不在，形態多、層面廣，所以防範共諜，軍事審判只是其中一部分，它是針對現役軍人出賣國家、違背職務。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:24:29.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:24:50.555000+08:00","text":"但是在社會面是很重要的，禮拜六凱道超過五萬人站出來拒絕統戰，人民的怒吼響徹雲霄，另外一個事情是2024年公民監督聯盟對於立法院的年度代表字是什麼，部長，你知道嗎？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T11:24:50.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:24:52.472000+08:00","text":"這裡面有寫……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:24:52.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:24:53.952000+08:00","text":"就是共匪的「匪」啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:24:54.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:24:58.513000+08:00","text":"小心共匪有沒有在立法院呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:24:59.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:25:18.297000+08:00","text":"居然2024年立法院的年度代表字……公民監督聯盟長期以來監督與觀察立法院問政品質，居然「匪」這個字被貼上了立法院，我覺得這個也是立法院要撕去的負面標籤。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:25:18.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:25:18.957000+08:00","text":"所以怎麼做呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:25:20.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:25:34.571000+08:00","text":"民進黨推的國安10法，如果立法院要撕掉「匪」的負面標籤，請在野黨的委員一起來支持國安法案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:25:35.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:25:55.916000+08:00","text":"目前民進黨提出來的有10法，我這邊就不贅述，其實當中跟法務部、國防部很多都相關，譬如說反滲透法、國家安全法等等，可是目前為止，光立委赴中登載報備就已經被擋了332次。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:25:56.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:26:04.239000+08:00","text":"如果立法院要撕掉「匪」以及「共匪就在立法院嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:26:04.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:26:08.740000+08:00","text":"」這個標籤的話，請藍白的委員不要再擋國安10法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:26:09.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:26:19.303000+08:00","text":"因為如果繼續擋國安10法，我們想方設法、想針對軍事審判的制度提了好多配套的修法，一樣被擋住就沒效用了，對不對？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:26:19.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:26:21.666000+08:00","text":"這是我們共同面對的困境跟僵局。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:26:23.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:26:29.777000+08:00","text":"不只如此，藍白的委員不只反國安法案，還推親中法案耶！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:26:31.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:26:55.550000+08:00","text":"兩岸人民關係條例、國家安全戰略法、不在籍投票、離島建設條例，不只洗人口，還要洗產地；然後還要把國家安全戰略的總統職權要擴大到立法院來決議定之，立法院可以監督；甚至反滲透法的修正案還要限縮，將刑事責任改為行政罰鍰。天啊！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:26:56.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:27:00.193000+08:00","text":"我們的立法院在扯後腿，我們的立法院在「倒退嚕」耶！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:27:01.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:27:23.866000+08:00","text":"這只是現在在野黨的委員推出來的親中法案的冰山一角，我真的很擔心，今天召委排了……我們未來想要恢復軍事審判，有效的針對66%的軍人、被滲透的對象來加強他的刑責、加強他的防範，透過一個更透明、更公開的軍事審判制度。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:27:24.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:27:26.207000+08:00","text":"可是在立法院卻過不了啊！","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:27:30.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:27:31.435000+08:00","text":"要怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:27:31.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:27:34.458000+08:00","text":"要怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:27:34.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:27:41.905000+08:00","text":"剛剛的問題我知道你們很難回答，因為連我是執政黨的黨團幹部，我都很難回答，我每天還在奮戰。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:27:42.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:27:54.762000+08:00","text":"最後要提醒，回到也是相關的主題─中國的介選，也是一種非常嚴重破壞臺灣民主制度的行為。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:27:54.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:28:22.137000+08:00","text":"法務部過去的專案報告提出幾大樣類，境外資金的介選、網路選舉的賭盤，或是透過散布假訊息的認知作戰，我提醒你們，有介選就有介罷，有介入選舉就會有介入罷免，無論在未來的投票或是現在二階的連署都有可能。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:28:23.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:28:43.550000+08:00","text":"就以現在發動罷免的幾個領銜人來說，以我自己的這一區，罷免吳思瑤的領銜人有非常明確的紅統背景；而罷免許智傑委員的領銜人甚至也要查查他還有沒有具備中國籍，我不知道，這個要查。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:28:44.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:28:49.211000+08:00","text":"所以過去在選舉的時候都有選舉的專案，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:28:49.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:29:06.464000+08:00","text":"部長，法務部針對境外勢力可能比照過去介選的方法，現在來介罷、介入民主罷免的手段，你們會不會也啟動像選舉時期一樣的專案來強化？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T11:29:12.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:29:17.583000+08:00","text":"目前這個我們再來研議，我們請最高檢來研議。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:29:17.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:29:34.511000+08:00","text":"我要提醒你們，因為同樣的都是境外敵對勢力透過各種方式，不管認知作戰、網路賭盤或是境外資金來介入，現在當然是在二階連署，如果有偽造的，那就讓檢調去辦案。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:29:35.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:29:39.353000+08:00","text":"但是這當中，未來如果進入投票，其實都很可能發生……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-21T11:29:39.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:29:39.754000+08:00","text":"這個就會選舉查察。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:29:40.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:29:44.656000+08:00","text":"是，所以你們要有選舉查察的專案，比照民主的選舉，我們的罷免也是民主制度的一環，我們超前部署，不分對象秉公處置，因為我們捍衛的都是臺灣中華民國的民主，我在這裡提醒您，好嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:29:44.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:29:45.096000+08:00","text":"提醒法務部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:29:45.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:30:19.941000+08:00","text":"國防部的同仁，我們繼續……不曉得怎麼辦，關於軍事審判制度，如果藍白在這裡任何國安法案都擋，我實在對於未來軍事審判制度要上路，能不能夠有效防範軍人被滲透都相對悲觀，但我們不會放棄努力，好嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-04-21T11:30:19.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-21T11:30:19.961000+08:00","text":"謝謝處長、謝謝部長。謝謝。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T11:30:20.461000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:30:21.461000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T11:30:21.761000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:30:24.046714+08:00","text":"我們現在休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T11:30:24.346714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:30:25.489571+08:00","text":"休息（11時30分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T11:30:25.789571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:30:26.932429+08:00","text":"繼續（11時37分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T11:30:27.232429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:30:29.803857+08:00","text":"我們接下來繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T11:30:30.103857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:30:34.961000+08:00","text":"翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-21T11:30:35.261000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-21T11:30:45.261000+08:00","text":"下一位請鄭天財委員進行詢答，鄭天財委員詢答完畢之後，我們就處理臨時提案，謝謝。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":959,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時13分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["吳委員思瑤：等一下國防部的代表也要一起，就是王處長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：也是非常遺憾，司法及法制委員會這個會期以來，不斷的、不斷的就個案來對官員為難，大家就來講制度、就來論法，一再的去講個案，而且甚至是當事人也要有起碼的利益迴避。針對剛剛王鴻薇委員所垂詢的事項，我想很簡要的還是需要做幾個歸納，第一個，民主不容造假，對不對？民主絕對不容造假，不管是過去國民黨執政時期的投票、作票，它會影響選舉的公正，或現在已經越來越少，但還是會發生的賄選，只要賄選就會有刑責，可能他當選也無效，所以在罷免這件事情上，一旦在連署涉及造假，他也應當有同樣民主不容造假的法律效力還有政治的效力，這是第一件事。","所以說民主不容造假，如果有違法事證，不管是藍的、綠的，不分對象都應當查辦，所以說現在中選會依職務告發，部長知道有幾件嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，41件。"],["吳委員思瑤：這41件全部都是罷藍的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：各黨派都有。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以中選會依職務告發的41件有藍有綠，有違法事證就要辦，因為民主不容造假，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，現在來偵辦的這些事件裡頭，其實法是誰修的？上個會期國民黨翁曉玲委員所提案的選罷法第九十八條之二，所以法是國民黨修的，第二個，證據是誰提供的？我以臺北市來講，臺北市所提供的這些證據是臺北市地方選委會提供的，地方選委會的主委是身兼臺北市政府的秘書長，也是蔣萬安親自任命的李泰興主委，他親自在議會的備詢就說了，所有在臺北市的死人連署、幽靈連署、造假連署都是誰查對、誰提報的呢？都是戶政事務所以及臺北市的選委會，所以現在檢調所偵辦的證據是誰提供的？就臺北市而言，就是臺北市政府所提供的，對不對？這第二件事情，法是誰修的？國民黨修的，證據是誰提供的？到目前為止，是地方選委會所查對、提報的，我這樣理解正確吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：正確。"],["吳委員思瑤：第三個，犯罪就是犯罪，違法就是違法，不論是誰，該辦就辦，司法偵辦的核心是證據而不是政治，我已經N次說明了，所以剛剛提到提供證據給檢調的是臺北市長蔣萬安主管的選委會，我不曉得為什麼有委員一直在這裡為難官員，而且是就個案。","我是當事人，我在臺下聽到真的是，我實在很不想講我的案子。吳思瑤的死亡連署86位，占4.09%，韓國瑜當初的死亡連署占0.3%，郭台銘那時的死亡連署甚至連0.01%都不到，吳思瑤這一區的死亡幽靈連署高達86件，占4.09%，錯假連署整個錯誤率高達34.5%，這是臺北市選委會提供的，所以如果是檢察官辦案，他就循證據去辦，我要把事情講清楚，我不容有些人在這裡混淆，然後來鬥臭司法、來施壓司法，我真的覺得比遺憾更遺憾。","接下來是今天的主題，保密防諜，人人有責，防範共諜就請國會一起來支持國安法案。我年紀小的時候，我是沒有什麼機會看童話故事，我年紀小的時候，我是翻著爸爸帶回家的黨外雜誌在看的，所以對於過去很多戒嚴時期的軍法大審、1980年的美麗島事件的軍法大審，這在那個年代，讓很多長一輩的臺灣人對於軍審這件事情存有一個時代遺留的標籤，就是過去國民黨執政的戒嚴時期，軍審會拿來打壓迫害政治犯，美麗島的軍法大審就是我們這一代人印象深刻的事情，所以要撕掉這個標籤，新的、要推動的軍事審查制度不能再犯，未來在對象上不可能再發生迫害政治犯的狀況嘛？還是國防部要來講？因為對象不一樣嘛？"],["王處長正誼：委員好。針對剛剛委員提的這個部分，其實這次的修正，第一個就是我們對象部分一定是現役軍人……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以不會對平民、也不會對政治犯嘛？"],["王處長正誼：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在也沒有所謂的政治犯辦案的狀況，您先回答這個部分。","我們要撕掉軍事審判在臺灣人民心中另外一個標籤，就是洪仲丘事件，當初他沒有公開透明的審判機制還有軍中的階級，他被霸凌，所以軍中人權……那個時候大家站出來，以至於我們的軍事審判制度做了革新，未來如果恢復的軍事審判制度會不會再發生同樣的洪仲丘事件？"],["王處長正誼：報告委員，這個案件給我們的啟示也是非常大，這次修正當然會針對當時的審判制度是不是有要修正的部分，一定會來檢討、來修改。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以不會再有下一個這樣的事件，我們在新的軍事審判制度重新改革研議的時候，一定要提醒彼此，也要告訴社會。"],["王處長正誼：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：早期的戒嚴時期，軍審會拿來對抗、對付政治犯，在過去洪仲丘那個時代，可能會拿來對軍中的一般案件，現在如果我們要恢復軍事審判，是因應新生，也不是新生事務啦，而是越來越嚴重的共諜滲透事件，這是現在我們重啟這個制度一個很重要、必須因應的危機。所以這幾年來，我看到共諜案的起訴人數是成長了400%，2024年已經到64位，2021年只有16位，而大家一再非常訝異，對於軍人占共諜的比例，不管退役或現役居然加總是占66%，也因為這樣子與日俱增的共諜威脅在軍中，所以我們要研議啟動恢復軍事審判，這是因應新的狀況，我認為社會也會支持。","未來軍事審判重開機的話，因為對象跟範圍都明確的界定，所以不會針對一般平民，它針對的是現役軍人，而且是現役軍人犯陸海空軍刑法第二編當中重要的……"],["王處長正誼：軍事犯。"],["吳委員思瑤：軍事犯。所以未來的制度配套非常重要，它限縮的對象跟範圍是限於軍人職務上的犯罪為主，如違反效忠國家職責罪章等等。未來我們要啟動配套的修法，包括軍事法院組織法、軍事檢察署的組織法，也要來制定軍法官的人事條例，要強化從事偵審的軍法官必須具備一定程度的軍事歷練，然後在符合公平審判的原則、正當法律程序的原則之下，也要來採行全面強制的辯護、廢除階級管轄等等，也就是新的、恢復的軍事審判跟過去的軍事審判完全不一樣，是不是？"],["王處長正誼：是，沒錯。剛剛委員所提示的這些都是我們目前在修法的方向跟範圍。"],["吳委員思瑤：現在研議到哪裡？"],["王處長正誼：目前我們針對細部條文都有在做調整，剛才司法院副秘書長也講了，我們這禮拜會跟司法院做交流協調跟溝通。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以如果跟司法院會銜後，預計後續送到立法院審議的期程可能會是落在？"],["王處長正誼：目前的規劃，我們希望在下半年……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以下個會期我們可望好好討論？"],["王處長正誼：沒有，我們下半年會提到行政院去，看行政院……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，看行政院什麼時候再送過來？OK，所以我們有充分的時間，我想未來在委員會、各類的公聽會，各類制度的討論是必要的，我們要撕下過去軍審在臺灣人民心中負面的觀感、負面的標籤，這是我們努力的方向。","但是共諜是無孔不入、無所不在的，宗教、學術、藝人、網紅、黑道，乃至於民意代表，這是過去我們所彙整的各個面向。而法務部今天的報告書裡頭，部長，你們特別提到科技掏空，利用危害經濟安全、危害產業競爭力的這種併購啦或者是挖角啦，或者是來竊取商業機密等等產業的危機，還有介選的滲透，這是第二類。第三類當然就是軍中相關的發展組織，特別是用利誘或色誘的方式來拍攝投降的影音，來瓦解我方國軍的士氣、來破壞軍紀，無所不在，形態多、層面廣，所以防範共諜，軍事審判只是其中一部分，它是針對現役軍人出賣國家、違背職務。但是在社會面是很重要的，禮拜六凱道超過五萬人站出來拒絕統戰，人民的怒吼響徹雲霄，另外一個事情是2024年公民監督聯盟對於立法院的年度代表字是什麼，部長，你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這裡面有寫……"],["吳委員思瑤：就是共匪的「匪」啊！小心共匪有沒有在立法院呢？居然2024年立法院的年度代表字……公民監督聯盟長期以來監督與觀察立法院問政品質，居然「匪」這個字被貼上了立法院，我覺得這個也是立法院要撕去的負面標籤。所以怎麼做呢？民進黨推的國安10法，如果立法院要撕掉「匪」的負面標籤，請在野黨的委員一起來支持國安法案。","目前民進黨提出來的有10法，我這邊就不贅述，其實當中跟法務部、國防部很多都相關，譬如說反滲透法、國家安全法等等，可是目前為止，光立委赴中登載報備就已經被擋了332次。如果立法院要撕掉「匪」以及「共匪就在立法院嗎？」這個標籤的話，請藍白的委員不要再擋國安10法。因為如果繼續擋國安10法，我們想方設法、想針對軍事審判的制度提了好多配套的修法，一樣被擋住就沒效用了，對不對？這是我們共同面對的困境跟僵局。","不只如此，藍白的委員不只反國安法案，還推親中法案耶！兩岸人民關係條例、國家安全戰略法、不在籍投票、離島建設條例，不只洗人口，還要洗產地；然後還要把國家安全戰略的總統職權要擴大到立法院來決議定之，立法院可以監督；甚至反滲透法的修正案還要限縮，將刑事責任改為行政罰鍰。天啊！我們的立法院在扯後腿，我們的立法院在「倒退嚕」耶！這只是現在在野黨的委員推出來的親中法案的冰山一角，我真的很擔心，今天召委排了……我們未來想要恢復軍事審判，有效的針對66%的軍人、被滲透的對象來加強他的刑責、加強他的防範，透過一個更透明、更公開的軍事審判制度。可是在立法院卻過不了啊！要怎麼辦？要怎麼辦？","剛剛的問題我知道你們很難回答，因為連我是執政黨的黨團幹部，我都很難回答，我每天還在奮戰。最後要提醒，回到也是相關的主題─中國的介選，也是一種非常嚴重破壞臺灣民主制度的行為。法務部過去的專案報告提出幾大樣類，境外資金的介選、網路選舉的賭盤，或是透過散布假訊息的認知作戰，我提醒你們，有介選就有介罷，有介入選舉就會有介入罷免，無論在未來的投票或是現在二階的連署都有可能。就以現在發動罷免的幾個領銜人來說，以我自己的這一區，罷免吳思瑤的領銜人有非常明確的紅統背景；而罷免許智傑委員的領銜人甚至也要查查他還有沒有具備中國籍，我不知道，這個要查。所以過去在選舉的時候都有選舉的專案，對不對？部長，法務部針對境外勢力可能比照過去介選的方法，現在來介罷、介入民主罷免的手段，你們會不會也啟動像選舉時期一樣的專案來強化？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前這個我們再來研議，我們請最高檢來研議。"],["吳委員思瑤：我要提醒你們，因為同樣的都是境外敵對勢力透過各種方式，不管認知作戰、網路賭盤或是境外資金來介入，現在當然是在二階連署，如果有偽造的，那就讓檢調去辦案。但是這當中，未來如果進入投票，其實都很可能發生……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就會選舉查察。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以你們要有選舉查察的專案，比照民主的選舉，我們的罷免也是民主制度的一環，我們超前部署，不分對象秉公處置，因為我們捍衛的都是臺灣中華民國的民主，我在這裡提醒您，好嗎？提醒法務部。國防部的同仁，我們繼續……不曉得怎麼辦，關於軍事審判制度，如果藍白在這裡任何國安法案都擋，我實在對於未來軍事審判制度要上路，能不能夠有效防範軍人被滲透都相對悲觀，但我們不會放棄努力，好嗎？謝謝處長、謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時30分）","繼續（11時37分）"],["主席：我們接下來繼續開會。","翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員不在。","下一位請鄭天財委員進行詢答，鄭天財委員詢答完畢之後，我們就處理臨時提案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-9","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","林倩綺","陳培瑜","沈發惠","王義川","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈伯洋","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","莊瑞雄","許宇甄","張啓楷","羅智強","陳冠廷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2025-04-21"],"gazette_id":"1144001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、國家安全會議、國\n防部、國家安全局、海洋委員會、內政部警政署、國防部憲兵指揮部、國防部資通電軍指揮部、\n海洋委員會海巡署率所屬相關單位列席就「軍事審判專庭（股）之執行現況，並就共諜滲透、機\n敏資訊洩漏等國安事件及忠誠安全查核機制，提出檢討報告及防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1144001_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}