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反正偵查中的案件 我不會介入 干涉 指導所以它的偵辦的一個過程 我是不能夠知道的因為我是管政策的 也是管法案的個案的偵辦是由檢查議題 是由最高 就檢查機關在做一個處理所以 但是我跟委員保證 就是檢察官在偵辦的任何的犯罪包括這一次德意樂罷免案的這些連署的問題"},{"start":154.795,"end":169.678,"text":"我相信檢察官都是本離客觀中立的一個一個辦案完全以證據來認定犯罪事實來蒐集證據那絕對是沒有黨派沒有特定的一個立場很好我們就是知道說我們法務部偵辦不公開嘛對不對"},{"start":178.42,"end":197.959,"text":"對不對 我們偵辦的過程不公開嘛但是偵辦後呢媒體就會有知道結果所以我不知道說我們法務部那邊是不是有傳送機啊佈局就過去 媒體就馬上登所以我想說我們是要說明一下就是完全沒有嘛"},{"start":198.579,"end":225.613,"text":"完全沒有但是媒體所以說要裝監視器在你們的偵辦場地還是說他們怎麼那麼沒有神通管道怎麼會都知道這個媒體他有他自己的消息的來源還有多元的管道所以我們偵辦的過程消息的管道我們是不是說我們要去查一下我們的法務部是不是說有哪裡的漏洞呢什麼叫做秘密什麼叫做秘密"},{"start":226.823,"end":245.176,"text":"秘密為什麼是媒體就知道這個秘密的概念是什麼跟委員可能不清楚這個偵查偵查的一個資料裡面的內容當然是偵辦偵辦人員從那個檢查法警書記官等司法警察所以我們的秘密就等於是說秘密都"},{"start":245.996,"end":272.224,"text":"都不見了所以我們叫什麼叫做秘密呢所以我們說一般嫌疑偽造文書是違反各自的罪嫌不等於是一件的事情都要動用前置處罰還有說搜索生涯但是這個罷免案如果法務部認為受到的告發硬硬要用的這樣子的力度來偵辦當然我們也非常尊重"},{"start":275.825,"end":293.324,"text":"但是呢 為何我們的指發就是說在各個縣市有沒有同步辦理這領金我們很尊重 所以要同步辦理各個縣市要同步辦理目前我們看見的就是 八美 立委"},{"start":294.785,"end":310.497,"text":"立委進度是原因造成就是那麼大的落差啦讓我們人民覺得說 是不是說 巴黎就在查 巴蘭也沒有查還有巴我們民眾黨的高雄安市長也沒有著落所以我們就嚴重的懷疑說我們的認真度在哪裡啦"},{"start":319.226,"end":339.642,"text":"各位媒體報告 反正不管任何黨派有涉及犯罪我們都會依法偵辦像這一次的罷免連署的這些的就是由中選會41件來告發的這不是檢察會主動去偵辦的這是中選會依照各選委會去...是啊 所以說我們覺得說有那麼多怎麼那麼奇怪我們今天來的是說希望"},{"start":345.447,"end":349.008,"text":"我們的法務部這邊的話就是人人平等我們要求的是人人平等違法就該依法辦理我們很認同所以完全沒有問題但是我們看到的是不可能是有那麼剛好這樣子因為先進的時間同樣都是偽造文書偏偏的剛好就是說"},{"start":369.053,"end":386.103,"text":"把綠的就被收押把我們高雄安的市長的委交文書到現在還沒有看到就是都有但是沒有看到讓人民對門的司法這樣子的有想像的空間我們希望說不管是在"},{"start":387.003,"end":393.106,"text":"任何的罷免案那麼多不可能只有這樣我們就是有嚴重的質疑啦我們希望說我們要有中心司法要檢調要有中立我認為這樣司法的單位應該要檢討不是要來跟我反質詢部長你認為這樣子的說明"},{"start":409.915,"end":433.243,"text":"所以我們司法希望是不單於一個法而已同時也有義務對社會跟我們人民做交代不是說我們司法的信任就是除了罷免台灣的詐騙集團洗錢 判讀走私這個是辦不完對不對 但是呢我們沒有談個案 大家說沒有 你沒有談個案但是"},{"start":435.484,"end":438.146,"text":"通通都是以一個個案來開始嘛"},{"start":466.024,"end":486.993,"text":"寒蟬效力叫大家閉嘴啦是不是就是收押人民的權利政治言論自由就是大家的我們是很珍惜但是呢這樣那麼極度的去辦理沒有其他方法了嗎還有對我們的金融犯罪"},{"start":487.973,"end":509.994,"text":"是偵辦那個查機的精神 是不是用這樣子的精神來去辦案呢所以說我們部長都回答是因為我每一個委員你都說不介入嘛所以呢 我再請教你你沒有個案 不查個案 不講個案嘛 對不對所以你都群辦嗎"},{"start":511.499,"end":513.64,"text":"你就分不同的族群來辦嗎還是不分政黨來辦嗎 對不對所以我們希望我們要的是你要中立要中立來去做這件事情但是如果是認為政治立場產生"},{"start":528.664,"end":546.714,"text":"就是許多案件就偏撥的部分還有這樣子的情形對我們對檢調的信任感就失去了所以我們希望說這樣子的一個敏感的法務我們的司法人員還有我們的檢調機關是不是嚴守"},{"start":550.596,"end":566.754,"text":"這樣子的行政中立讓我們質疑所以我們希望我們法務部這邊就是要如何來去辦案更中立讓我們人民才覺得司法是我們最信任的最正義的一個部門給我一分鐘讓我們的"},{"start":574.835,"end":590.466,"text":"這個我再跟重申一次就是我們是檢察官是嚴守整個一個客觀中立的一個不分黨派 勿枉勿縱剛才委員關心的就是罷免這個不重要嗎這個很重要啊"},{"start":590.506,"end":612.074,"text":"我沒有說不重要啊我是希望這個要中立好 如果你說這個很重要現在目前我們對我們的國家對我們人民傷害最重要的是什麼每一項犯罪對社會公益都是有侵害對 很重要但是我們現在的最重要的是什麼嘛"},{"start":612.881,"end":619.985,"text":"每一項都是很重要每一項有哪一項我們舉例出來嘛有哪一項最重要的黑金槍毒炸對你辦了嗎查了嗎我們詐騙集團一天一天八億三億"},{"start":629.291,"end":639.578,"text":"3億,一天被詐騙了3億詐騙集團一天被騙了3億你辦了嗎?有那麼認真嗎?還有說我們現在安插在我們總統旁邊的共諜你真的辦了嗎?真的辦了嗎?我們國安的問題,總統的安全,你有辦了嗎?我們把一些我們承辦的相關資料給委員嘛,好不好?"},{"start":656.09,"end":660.137,"text":"雖然你說這樣子 如果你真的是罷免很重要 我要問你幾個問題"},{"start":663.188,"end":684.035,"text":"你要去查的就是說 你們要去查的為什麼他們簽名是不是說是本人嘛 對不對是不是本人簽名 你們去查的罷免人是不是本人簽名 對不對第一個嘛 是嗎委員 這一則是屬於案件申辦的問題 我就不談這些了比如說 你們要去查的 要參加罷免的人為什麼 你們簽名是不是真的 為什麼要簽名"},{"start":693.138,"end":707.212,"text":"你要罷免的是誰罷免這個人他有什麼罪名你要多查啊你不能只要說他簽名啊多查這樣才是真正的去查還有說這個部分我們五十二個人五十二個人你們都要去查去調查這個罪名"},{"start":714.979,"end":719.503,"text":"都要去查才對啊不能只是查簽名而已要查說他要罷誰這個全部都要查所以呢我們行政中立跟司法獨立說起來是很簡單但是其中不管是公務人員或者調查人員難免都有自己的價值觀還有立場所以呢作為主管機關我們要避免這樣的情形發生所以這要"},{"start":744.582,"end":771.427,"text":"請我們的憲法人民這種的權利多非常重要所以我們要為我們國安的問題不像說報告說的只是宣導相關的法律行政中立的訓練希望可以進進才會達到高度的保證還有做到這樣子的中立所以我請教我們的部長"},{"start":772.95,"end":788.775,"text":"你覺得法律人是不是站在聲援正義 還有保障人權還有說我們的法律人的良知是什麼 遵守的良知是什麼"},{"start":790.27,"end":816.675,"text":"委員講的就是我們法律人的一個信念是我們在落實這些的一個信念我想在我們在工作都是憑著這一種的信念才去依法偵辦犯罪去從事我們法定的一個職務的一個處理所以我們法律人我們要法律人要遵守的良知是什麼最後一句是什麼依法處理"},{"start":817.78,"end":843.537,"text":"依法修理 對不對 我們是要為法就是依法處理 伸張正義我們的人權嘛但是呢 實際說法律人的職業的靈魂所以呢 我們希望我們法務部站在專業中立依法行政不違背我們法律人職業的靈魂謝謝"},{"start":846.567,"end":848.364,"text":"好 謝謝麥偉仁那我們接下來"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:21:27.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:21:32.133000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請法務部部長。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:21:32.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:21:32.733000+08:00","text":"請法務部鄭部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:21:32.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:21:32.773000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:21:38.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:21:39.040000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:21:39.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:21:52.990000+08:00","text":"我們今天要討論的沒有特定個案，要討論的是一個現象，是人民最在意的司法公正與中立的問題。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:21:52.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:22:24.666000+08:00","text":"中選會在4月14日稱，針對41名嫌犯偽造簽名或死亡連署的罷免案，已經向高檢察署告發，但是通過新聞媒體我們才知道，也許罷免民進黨立委的領銜人或者關係人已經被帶回偵辦、約談或搜索聲押。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:22:26.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:22:50.941000+08:00","text":"依據中選會查的結果，不管是國民黨、民進黨、民眾黨的罷免案，其實都有出現幽靈連署或偽造連署的問題，但是為什麼媒體上鋪天蓋地的都只看見罷綠團體遭到調查？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:22:51.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:23:04.015000+08:00","text":"還有其中有15案罷藍團體，以及罷免高虹安市長的偽造簽名案件，目前偵辦的進度如何？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:23:04.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:23:06.357000+08:00","text":"手上沒有各地的偵辦概況嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:23:06.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:23:07.638000+08:00","text":"還有罷藍的目前是不是只有4月21日基隆林沛祥罷免案在進行查辦？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:23:07.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:23:07.858000+08:00","text":"部長可以說明一下嗎？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:23:23.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:23:40.230000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，反正偵查中的案件，我不會介入、干涉、指導，所以偵辦過程我是不能夠知道的，因為我是管政策的、管法案的，個案偵辦及檢察一體是由最高檢察機關處理。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:23:41.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:24:03.578000+08:00","text":"但是我跟委員保證，檢察官在偵辦任何的犯罪，包括這次罷免案的連署問題，我相信檢察官都是本於客觀中立辦案，完全以證據認定犯罪事實及蒐集證據，絕對沒有黨派及特定的立場。很好。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:24:03.578000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:24:04.578000+08:00","text":"我們檢調偵辦這些案件……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:24:03.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:24:04.658000+08:00","text":"我們知道法務部偵辦不公開，是不是？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:24:14.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:24:31.217000+08:00","text":"就是偵辦的過程不公開，但是偵辦後媒體就會知道結果，所以我不知道法務部那邊是不是有傳送機，傳一下就過去，媒體就馬上刊登了，這部分請說明一下。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:24:31.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:24:32.939000+08:00","text":"沒有，就是完全沒有嘛！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:24:33.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:24:34.059000+08:00","text":"完全沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:24:35.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:24:43.844000+08:00","text":"所以說要裝監視器在你們的偵辦場地，還是說媒體怎麼那麼神通廣大都會知道？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:24:43.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:24:46.766000+08:00","text":"媒體有他們自己的消息來源，有多元的管道，而且……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:24:48.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:24:57.191000+08:00","text":"針對偵辦過程消息的管道，法務部是不是應該去查一下哪裡有漏洞呢？","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:24:59.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:25:00.593000+08:00","text":"什麼叫做秘密？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:25:01.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:25:03.604000+08:00","text":"秘密為什麼媒體會知道？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:25:04.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:25:06.786000+08:00","text":"這個秘密的概念是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:25:06.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:25:15.452000+08:00","text":"委員可能不清楚這個審查，這個審查的資料裡面的內容，當然是偵辦人員，從檢察官、法警、書記官等及司法警察……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:25:15.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:25:23.297000+08:00","text":"所以我們的秘密都不見了，那我們怎麼叫秘密呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:25:24.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:25:36.281000+08:00","text":"我們一般說偽造文書是違反個資的罪嫌，不等於是一件事情，都要動用強制處罰，還有搜索聲押。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:25:38.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:25:58.093000+08:00","text":"罷免案如果法務部收到告發，硬是要用這樣子的力度來偵辦，當然我們也非常尊重，但是我們的執法在各個縣市有沒有同步辦理？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:25:59.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:26:04.380000+08:00","text":"你們這麼認真，我們很尊重，所以各個縣市要同步辦理。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:26:04.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:26:25.477000+08:00","text":"目前我們看見的就是罷免綠的立委進度有那麼大的落差，讓我們人民覺得是不是罷綠就查，罷藍就沒有查，罷民眾黨的高虹安市長也沒有著落，所以我們嚴重懷疑法務部的認真度在哪裡。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:26:34.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:26:51.680000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，反正不管任何黨派有涉及犯罪，我們都會依法偵辦，像這一次的罷免連署，41件就是由中選會告發的，這不是檢察官主動偵辦的，這是中選會依照各選委會審查的結果……","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:26:52.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:26:54.182000+08:00","text":"所以我們才覺得有那麼多，怎麼那麼奇怪？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:26:54.182000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:26:55.182000+08:00","text":"我們是不分黨派都有在偵辦的。","quality":0.231},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:26:54.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:27:38.741000+08:00","text":"希望法務部秉持人人平等，我們要求的是人人平等，違法就該依法辦理，我們很認同，完全沒有問題，但是我們看到的是，不可能那麼剛好這樣子，因為同樣都是偽造文書，偏偏剛好就是罷綠的就被收押，罷高虹安市長的偽造文書到現在還沒有看到，就是都有，但是沒有看到，這會讓人民對我們的司法有想像的空間。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:27:42.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:27:45.785000+08:00","text":"實際上，任何的罷免案有那麼多，不可能只有這樣，所以我們嚴重質疑。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:27:45.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:27:47.826000+08:00","text":"我們希望能夠有公信力的司法，檢調要中立，我認為這樣的司法應該要檢討，而不是來跟我反質詢。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:28:05.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:28:24.142000+08:00","text":"我們希望司法不單是法而已，同時也有義務對社會跟人民交代，不是說司法的信任就是除了罷免，臺灣的詐騙集團，洗錢、販毒、走私，這些辦不完，對不對？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:28:24.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:28:33.126000+08:00","text":"但是我們沒有談個案，大家說你沒有談個案，但是統統都是以一個個案開始嘛！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:28:33.126000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:28:42.425333+08:00","text":"我們看到基隆檢調一大早六點半按門鈴，這樣是擾民啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:28:42.425333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:28:51.724667+08:00","text":"他是罪犯還是嫌疑犯嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:28:51.724667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:01.024000+08:00","text":"應該要去問他本人是不是有簽名。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:01.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:04.406000+08:00","text":"希望法務部不要讓人民開始有寒蟬效應，叫大家閉嘴。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:05.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:07.987000+08:00","text":"這是不是就是收押人民的權利？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:08.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:20.032000+08:00","text":"政治言論自由是大家的，我們很珍惜，但是那麼極度的去辦理，沒有其他方法了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:21.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:29.720000+08:00","text":"偵辦查緝金融犯罪，是不是用這樣的精神辦案呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:31.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:44.373000+08:00","text":"部長，你對每位委員的質詢都是回答你不介入，我再請教你，你說沒有個案，不查個案，不講個案嘛，對不對？","quality":0.738},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:44.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:44.994000+08:00","text":"所以你都群辦嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:46.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:47.299000+08:00","text":"你就分不出不同的族群來辦嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:47.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:47.439000+08:00","text":"還是不分政黨來辦嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:47.439000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:48.439000+08:00","text":"委員聽我解釋……","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:47.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:48.139000+08:00","text":"我們希望你要中立，要中立去做這件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:48.139000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:29:49.139000+08:00","text":"我們絕對會嚴守中立。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:29:48.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:30:13.630000+08:00","text":"如果因為政治立場而對許多案件產生偏頗，這樣我們對檢調就失去了信任感。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:30:14.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:30:28.840000+08:00","text":"對於我們敏感的法務、司法人員及檢調機關是不是嚴守行政中立，這讓我們質疑。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:30:29.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:30:41.494000+08:00","text":"我希望法務部辦案要更中立，人民才會覺得司法是我們最信任、最正義的一個部門。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:30:41.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:30:41.714000+08:00","text":"請給我1分鐘，部長答復本席。","quality":0.364},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:30:41.714000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:30:49.835000+08:00","text":"請部長簡短回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:30:49.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:30:50.936000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我再重申一次。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:30:53.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:04.605000+08:00","text":"檢察官嚴守客觀、中立，且不分黨派、勿枉勿縱，剛才委員關心的就是罷免，這個不重要嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:04.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:05.446000+08:00","text":"這個很重要啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:05.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:09.968000+08:00","text":"我沒有說不重要啊，我是希望這個要中立。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:10.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:20.872000+08:00","text":"好，如果你說這個很重要，目前對我們國家，對我們人民的傷害，最重要的是什麼？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:20.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:23.252000+08:00","text":"每一項犯罪對社會公益都有侵害。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:23.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:27.054000+08:00","text":"對，很重要，但是我們現在最重要的是什麼嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:27.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:28.902000+08:00","text":"每一項都很重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:28.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:30.062000+08:00","text":"你說每一項，是有哪一項嘛？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:30.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:32.504000+08:00","text":"你舉例出來嘛，有哪一項最重要的？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:32.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:33.384000+08:00","text":"黑、金、槍、毒、詐。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:34.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:34.125000+08:00","text":"對，你辦了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:34.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:34.405000+08:00","text":"查了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:34.405000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:35.405000+08:00","text":"怎麼沒辦呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:34.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:46.772000+08:00","text":"我們詐騙集團一天詐騙的金額高達3億，一天被詐騙了3億，你辦了嗎？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:46.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:47.413000+08:00","text":"有那麼認真嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:48.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:51.936000+08:00","text":"另外，現在安插在我們總統旁邊的共諜，你真的辦了嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:52.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:53.217000+08:00","text":"我們國安的問題，有關總統的安危，你有辦了嗎？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:31:53.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:31:54.558000+08:00","text":"我們把一些我們承辦的相關資料給委員，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:11.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:15.137000+08:00","text":"好，既然你這樣說，如果你真的認為罷免很重要，我要問你幾個問題。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:18.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:28.431000+08:00","text":"你們要去查的是他們簽名是不是本人嘛，對不對？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:30.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:35.014000+08:00","text":"你們要查的是罷免人是不是本人簽名，這是第一個，是嗎？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:35.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:37.575000+08:00","text":"委員，這個就是屬於案件偵辦的問題，我就不談這些了。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:37.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:38.675000+08:00","text":"好，你們要去查的諸如：要參加罷免的人是為什麼？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:38.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:38.895000+08:00","text":"他們簽名是不是真的？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:38.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:39.015000+08:00","text":"為什麼要簽名？","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:48.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:50.280000+08:00","text":"所要罷免的是誰？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:50.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:52.923000+08:00","text":"罷免的這個人有什麼罪名？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:32:53.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:32:59.729000+08:00","text":"你要去查啊，你不能只說他簽名啊，都要查，這樣才是真正的查。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:33:00.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:33:10.660000+08:00","text":"還有這個部分有52個人，對這52個人你們都要去查，去調查罪名，這些都要去查才對啊！","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:33:10.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:33:11.400000+08:00","text":"不能只是查簽名而已，要查他要罷誰。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:33:11.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:33:12.400000+08:00","text":"要勿枉勿縱，當然我們會查犯罪的共同要件。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:33:11.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:33:11.581000+08:00","text":"這個全部都要查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:33:11.581000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:33:12.581000+08:00","text":"請委員支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:33:11.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:34:04.487000+08:00","text":"行政中立跟司法獨立說起來是很簡單，但是其中不管是公務人員或調查人員，難免都有自己的價值觀還有立場，所以作為主管機關要避免這樣的情形發生，憲法及人民的各種權利都非常重要，我們顧及國安的問題，不像報告說的只是宣導相關的法律，行政中立的信念希望可以精進，才會達到高度的保證，還有做到中立。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:34:05.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:34:17.713000+08:00","text":"請教部長，你覺得法律人是不是站在聲援正義及保障人權的立場？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:34:17.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:34:23.775000+08:00","text":"還有法律人的良知是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:34:25.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:34:40.433000+08:00","text":"委員講的就是我們法律人的信念，我們在落實這些信念，我們在工作都是憑著這種信念依法偵辦犯罪，從事我們法定的職務。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:34:41.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:34:48.894000+08:00","text":"所以法律人要遵守的良知是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2025-04-23T12:34:51.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:34:51.655000+08:00","text":"依法處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:34:52.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:34:54.201000+08:00","text":"依法處理，對不對？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"麥委員玉珍","start":"2025-04-23T12:34:54.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:35:18.537000+08:00","text":"我們就是要依法處理，伸張正義及人權，事實上，這是法律人職業的靈魂，所以希望法務部站在專業、中立、依法行政的立場，不違背法律人職業的靈魂，謝謝。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:35:21.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-23T12:35:21.850000+08:00","text":"謝謝麥委員。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:35:22.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:35:27.207143+08:00","text":"鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:35:27.507143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:35:32.364286+08:00","text":"劉建國委員、劉建國委員、劉建國委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:35:32.664286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:35:37.521429+08:00","text":"林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:35:37.821429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:35:42.678571+08:00","text":"蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:35:42.978571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:35:48.692857+08:00","text":"高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:35:48.992857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:35:53.850000+08:00","text":"蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-23T12:35:54.150000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-23T12:35:55.864286+08:00","text":"請羅智強委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1061,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（12時21分）謝謝主席，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：請法務部鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。我們今天要討論的沒有特定個案，要討論的是一個現象，是人民最在意的司法公正與中立的問題。中選會在4月14日稱，針對41名嫌犯偽造簽名或死亡連署的罷免案，已經向高檢察署告發，但是通過新聞媒體我們才知道，也許罷免民進黨立委的領銜人或者關係人已經被帶回偵辦、約談或搜索聲押。依據中選會查的結果，不管是國民黨、民進黨、民眾黨的罷免案，其實都有出現幽靈連署或偽造連署的問題，但是為什麼媒體上鋪天蓋地的都只看見罷綠團體遭到調查？還有其中有15案罷藍團體，以及罷免高虹安市長的偽造簽名案件，目前偵辦的進度如何？手上沒有各地的偵辦概況嗎？還有罷藍的目前是不是只有4月21日基隆林沛祥罷免案在進行查辦？部長可以說明一下嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，反正偵查中的案件，我不會介入、干涉、指導，所以偵辦過程我是不能夠知道的，因為我是管政策的、管法案的，個案偵辦及檢察一體是由最高檢察機關處理。但是我跟委員保證，檢察官在偵辦任何的犯罪，包括這次罷免案的連署問題，我相信檢察官都是本於客觀中立辦案，完全以證據認定犯罪事實及蒐集證據，絕對沒有黨派及特定的立場。"],["麥委員玉珍：很好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們檢調偵辦這些案件……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們知道法務部偵辦不公開，是不是？就是偵辦的過程不公開，但是偵辦後媒體就會知道結果，所以我不知道法務部那邊是不是有傳送機，傳一下就過去，媒體就馬上刊登了，這部分請說明一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，就是完全沒有嘛！"],["麥委員玉珍：完全沒有？所以說要裝監視器在你們的偵辦場地，還是說媒體怎麼那麼神通廣大都會知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：媒體有他們自己的消息來源，有多元的管道，而且……"],["麥委員玉珍：針對偵辦過程消息的管道，法務部是不是應該去查一下哪裡有漏洞呢？什麼叫做秘密？秘密為什麼媒體會知道？這個秘密的概念是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員可能不清楚這個審查，這個審查的資料裡面的內容，當然是偵辦人員，從檢察官、法警、書記官等及司法警察……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們的秘密都不見了，那我們怎麼叫秘密呢？我們一般說偽造文書是違反個資的罪嫌，不等於是一件事情，都要動用強制處罰，還有搜索聲押。罷免案如果法務部收到告發，硬是要用這樣子的力度來偵辦，當然我們也非常尊重，但是我們的執法在各個縣市有沒有同步辦理？你們這麼認真，我們很尊重，所以各個縣市要同步辦理。目前我們看見的就是罷免綠的立委進度有那麼大的落差，讓我們人民覺得是不是罷綠就查，罷藍就沒有查，罷民眾黨的高虹安市長也沒有著落，所以我們嚴重懷疑法務部的認真度在哪裡。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，反正不管任何黨派有涉及犯罪，我們都會依法偵辦，像這一次的罷免連署，41件就是由中選會告發的，這不是檢察官主動偵辦的，這是中選會依照各選委會審查的結果……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們才覺得有那麼多，怎麼那麼奇怪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是不分黨派都有在偵辦的。"],["麥委員玉珍：希望法務部秉持人人平等，我們要求的是人人平等，違法就該依法辦理，我們很認同，完全沒有問題，但是我們看到的是，不可能那麼剛好這樣子，因為同樣都是偽造文書，偏偏剛好就是罷綠的就被收押，罷高虹安市長的偽造文書到現在還沒有看到，就是都有，但是沒有看到，這會讓人民對我們的司法有想像的空間。實際上，任何的罷免案有那麼多，不可能只有這樣，所以我們嚴重質疑。我們希望能夠有公信力的司法，檢調要中立，我認為這樣的司法應該要檢討，而不是來跟我反質詢。我們希望司法不單是法而已，同時也有義務對社會跟人民交代，不是說司法的信任就是除了罷免，臺灣的詐騙集團，洗錢、販毒、走私，這些辦不完，對不對？但是我們沒有談個案，大家說你沒有談個案，但是統統都是以一個個案開始嘛！我們看到基隆檢調一大早六點半按門鈴，這樣是擾民啊！他是罪犯還是嫌疑犯嗎？應該要去問他本人是不是有簽名。希望法務部不要讓人民開始有寒蟬效應，叫大家閉嘴。這是不是就是收押人民的權利？政治言論自由是大家的，我們很珍惜，但是那麼極度的去辦理，沒有其他方法了嗎？偵辦查緝金融犯罪，是不是用這樣的精神辦案呢？","部長，你對每位委員的質詢都是回答你不介入，我再請教你，你說沒有個案，不查個案，不講個案嘛，對不對？所以你都群辦嗎？你就分不出不同的族群來辦嗎？還是不分政黨來辦嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員聽我解釋……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望你要中立，要中立去做這件事情。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們絕對會嚴守中立。"],["麥委員玉珍：如果因為政治立場而對許多案件產生偏頗，這樣我們對檢調就失去了信任感。對於我們敏感的法務、司法人員及檢調機關是不是嚴守行政中立，這讓我們質疑。我希望法務部辦案要更中立，人民才會覺得司法是我們最信任、最正義的一個部門。請給我1分鐘，部長答復本席。"],["主席：請部長簡短回應。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝，我再重申一次。檢察官嚴守客觀、中立，且不分黨派、勿枉勿縱，剛才委員關心的就是罷免，這個不重要嗎？這個很重要啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：我沒有說不重要啊，我是希望這個要中立。好，如果你說這個很重要，目前對我們國家，對我們人民的傷害，最重要的是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每一項犯罪對社會公益都有侵害。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，很重要，但是我們現在最重要的是什麼嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每一項都很重要。"],["麥委員玉珍：你說每一項，是有哪一項嘛？你舉例出來嘛，有哪一項最重要的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：黑、金、槍、毒、詐。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，你辦了嗎？查了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：怎麼沒辦呢？"],["麥委員玉珍：我們詐騙集團一天詐騙的金額高達3億，一天被詐騙了3億，你辦了嗎？有那麼認真嗎？","另外，現在安插在我們總統旁邊的共諜，你真的辦了嗎？我們國安的問題，有關總統的安危，你有辦了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們把一些我們承辦的相關資料給委員，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，既然你這樣說，如果你真的認為罷免很重要，我要問你幾個問題。你們要去查的是他們簽名是不是本人嘛，對不對？你們要查的是罷免人是不是本人簽名，這是第一個，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，這個就是屬於案件偵辦的問題，我就不談這些了。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你們要去查的諸如：要參加罷免的人是為什麼？他們簽名是不是真的？為什麼要簽名？所要罷免的是誰？罷免的這個人有什麼罪名？你要去查啊，你不能只說他簽名啊，都要查，這樣才是真正的查。還有這個部分有52個人，對這52個人你們都要去查，去調查罪名，這些都要去查才對啊！不能只是查簽名而已，要查他要罷誰。"],["鄭部長銘謙：要勿枉勿縱，當然我們會查犯罪的共同要件。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個全部都要查。"],["鄭部長銘謙：請委員支持。"],["麥委員玉珍：行政中立跟司法獨立說起來是很簡單，但是其中不管是公務人員或調查人員，難免都有自己的價值觀還有立場，所以作為主管機關要避免這樣的情形發生，憲法及人民的各種權利都非常重要，我們顧及國安的問題，不像報告說的只是宣導相關的法律，行政中立的信念希望可以精進，才會達到高度的保證，還有做到中立。請教部長，你覺得法律人是不是站在聲援正義及保障人權的立場？還有法律人的良知是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員講的就是我們法律人的信念，我們在落實這些信念，我們在工作都是憑著這種信念依法偵辦犯罪，從事我們法定的職務。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以法律人要遵守的良知是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：依法處理。"],["麥委員玉珍：依法處理，對不對？我們就是要依法處理，伸張正義及人權，事實上，這是法律人職業的靈魂，所以希望法務部站在專業、中立、依法行政的立場，不違背法律人職業的靈魂，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","劉建國委員、劉建國委員、劉建國委員不在。","林月琴委員、林月琴委員、林月琴委員不在。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":80,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-10","speakers":["吳宗憲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","羅智強","蔡易餘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-04-23"],"gazette_id":"1144101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、銓敘部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政\n院人事行政總處、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、內政部、中央選舉委員會、內政部警政署率所屬\n相關單位列席就「選舉罷免程序中，如何落實公務人員含政務官（人員）、司法人員、選務人員\n恪守行政中立，且秉持公正執法勿偏頗」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}