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謝謝周委 有請主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":19.134,"end":33.825,"text":"陳主委應該現在還是早安我想剛剛有幾位委員都有講到就是上禮拜五台灣民眾黨黨團在院會臨時提出公投案試圖通過公投針對第三核能發電廠他們覺得用他的"},{"start":37.409,"end":53.609,"text":"話語叫做繼續運轉那當然主文是問說你是否同意在經過整體安全評估後恢復繼續運轉那針對這個問題我想剛剛主委有談到您的用語叫做local consent 是不是local consent"},{"start":53.829,"end":74.198,"text":"就是翻成中文就是在地同意對那我們來看其實針對研議的事情我們沒有一個法規清楚的規範要怎麼行使評估安全評估怎麼行使local consent可是我們根據低放射性廢棄物最終處置設置長指設置條例候選長指"},{"start":77.299,"end":92.27,"text":"光一個低階的放射性廢棄物的候選長職本身都必須要經當地縣市公民投票同意才能夠成為候選長職這個部分很明確就是local consent嘛在地同意對不對那可是呢你也可以看到光就是說"},{"start":100.056,"end":126.938,"text":"剛剛武力華為也有提到金門烏丘跟台東達人被選為低階放射的這個候選常識他們依法要進行地方公投他連辦都拒絕辦他覺得辦好像就已經變成是有可能同意了所以地方政府的立場是非常的清楚那依法他應該要辦他是拒絕辦所以你這程序又走不下去所以地方政府就直接跳出來反對了就沒有local consent了對不對"},{"start":127.899,"end":156.493,"text":"所以我們才會核廢料連低階的那也要反駁一下剛剛居然有民眾黨委員講芬蘭說全世界只有芬蘭有最終儲置場意思就是說那大家都沒有最終儲置場高階的然後所以現在繼續有核電廠沒問題他忽略了一個重要事實很多國家其實有低階的低階的就是儲置場那人家地大物薄跟我們非常的不一樣我們現在是連低階的"},{"start":157.714,"end":182.809,"text":"而且就是還不是最終這個處置廠的候選場址都沒有當候選人都不願意了更何況是最後被選定那所以我想國際上我們查一下1976年美國加州全民公投就訂了法律禁止在該州建造新的核電廠禁令到現在仍有效日本1996年的日本新系現捲釘"},{"start":185.67,"end":212.248,"text":"就經由地方公投案否決捲丁核電廠的建設2014年瑞士博恩邦曾對核電廠是否應提前關閉進行過地方性的公投那我們可以看到就是以媽媽企業行動聯盟的資料依照日本核電廠的慣例啟動之前會先徵得地方政府的同意"},{"start":213.028,"end":240.782,"text":"所以他們最近沒有得到地方的同意想要在日本最大的新系線博齊那個字怎麼唸義語合電廠就是要有這個那結果呢就有14萬人連署他們要公投因為依日本的慣例你這個部分其實是要公投的那我們其實已經看到地方政府周春米"},{"start":241.802,"end":261.036,"text":"剛剛林怡瑾召委也有提到周春米縣長就很直接講這個多數暴力要公投這個部分而且在立法院是近乎二讀那事實上沒有尊重屏東人的意見屏東人的生命安全他最後寫屏東要安全 屏東要繁榮 屏東人的命運由我們自己決定"},{"start":262.077,"end":277.154,"text":"那天我們屏東的立委現在鍾嘉斌也在場待會應該也會繼續表達還有莊瑞雄就是幾位屏東的委員都表達反對所以這件事情有屏東的local consent嗎那個主委以你現在看到的事實認定"},{"start":281.158,"end":299.817,"text":"看來是沒有看來是沒有嘛那您同不同意這個公投投下去非常的粗暴完全我們跟民主國家比日本我們現在很驕傲我們好像在一些評比比日本還民主那這樣子是符合民主精神嗎這個公投"},{"start":300.799,"end":321.357,"text":"沒有local consent您剛講您的專業都知道要local consent連個核廢料低階這個候選場址都要local consent了那這個完全忽略地方的民意那這是不是一個不尊重民主程序的公投案因您了解的local consent有嗎"},{"start":325.331,"end":337.703,"text":"我想我們的立場就是尊重公投法還有立法院的決議來辦理尊重公投法公投法裡面有講那個低結核廢料需要local consent嗎"},{"start":339.161,"end":360.161,"text":"因為以低階核廢料這個選址條例它算是特別法然後Geno的公投法是這個不是屬於地方公投的事項這就是我希望你們去了解的低階核廢料因為這裡把這個local consent具體明文化了所以候選長址就得不到同意就走不下去因為地方政府都反對"},{"start":360.982,"end":368.647,"text":"那今天呢就是因為我們這個研議的東西沒有一個很清楚的法規針對安全評估怎麼樣要處理也要local consent所以現在會出現這個粗暴的這個河山研議的公投案完全不尊重屏東的縣政府屏東的立委那他們的表達意見就是他們反對立委選出來當然代表民意嘛縣政府 縣長選出來代表民意"},{"start":390.14,"end":413.266,"text":"那主委你是不是可以去研議一下就是比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施長指設置條例那相關的研議最壞的情況如果這個粗暴公投通過的話當然我們是反對的那是否你可以去研議相關的修法就比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設置長指的設置條例"},{"start":415.902,"end":437.033,"text":"你建一個核電廠,當年40年前台灣不是個民主國家你40年後,你低階核廢料都要當地居民的同意了剛剛主委的專業術與local consent那是不是也應該把這個精神放在相關的研議與否安全評估的法規中呢可以去研議吧,我請你研議喔"},{"start":440.356,"end":463.033,"text":"主委 這裡有主委來打好了 好不好 去研議好嗎有關研議部分 目前是沒有需要公投目前沒有 但是我們是可以修法嘛 您是主管機關 和安會嘛這個低放射性這個最終處理場設置條例 是不是你們也是相關的主管機關是嗎 對 那既然你們這樣可以比照它去研議吧"},{"start":465.154,"end":481.411,"text":"演繹主委演繹當然這是可以討論的議題那就請主委去演繹好嗎可不可以演繹三個月之內給我們一個報告給本席一個報告初步的就好看看其他國家的經驗好不好好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝范雲委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:17:19.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:17:20.064000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請主委。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:17:20.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:17:20.905000+08:00","text":"有請陳主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-04-24T11:17:20.905000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:17:30.134000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:17:30.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:17:31.835000+08:00","text":"陳主委早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:17:34.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:17:56.959000+08:00","text":"剛剛有幾位委員都有講到上個禮拜五台灣民眾黨黨團在院會臨時提出公投案，試圖透過公投針對第三核能發電廠，用他們的話語叫做繼續運轉，當然主文是問：你是否同意在經過整體安全評估後，恢復繼續運轉。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:17:58.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:18:03.407000+08:00","text":"針對這個問題，剛剛主委有談到您的用語叫做local consent是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-04-24T11:18:03.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:18:04.589000+08:00","text":"對，local consent。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:18:05.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:18:08.851000+08:00","text":"翻成中文就是在地同意嗎？對。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:18:10.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:18:42.669000+08:00","text":"其實針對延役的事情，我們沒有法規清楚規範安全評估要怎麼行使local consent，可是根據低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例，光一個低階放射性廢棄物的候選場址本身，都必須要經當地縣市公民投票同意才能夠成為候選場址，這個部分很明確就是local consent（在地同意）對不對？是。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:18:51.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:19:13.555000+08:00","text":"剛剛伍麗華委員也有提到金門烏坵跟臺東達仁被選為低階放射性廢棄物的候選場址，依法要進行地方公投，可是他們連辦都拒絕辦，他們覺得辦好像就已經變成是有可能同意了，所以地方政府的立場非常清楚，依法他們應該要辦，可是他們拒絕辦，所以程序就走不下去嘛！","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:19:14.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:19:17.938000+08:00","text":"因為地方政府直接跳出來反對，所以就沒有local consent了對不對？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:19:19.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:19:21.040000+08:00","text":"也因此我們連低階的核廢料處置都有問題。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:19:21.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:19:57.659000+08:00","text":"你要反駁一下，剛剛居然有民眾黨委員說全世界只有芬蘭有最終處置場，意思就是說大家都沒有高階核廢料最終處置場，所以現在繼續有核電廠沒問題，它忽略了一個很重要的事情，很多國家其實有低階的核廢料處置場，人家地大物博，跟我們非常不一樣，我們現在是連低階核廢料最終處置場的候選場址都沒有，當候選的都不願意了，更何況是最後被選定。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:20:00.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:20:31.080000+08:00","text":"我們查一下國際上的資料，1976年美國加州全民公投訂了一個法律，禁止在該州建造新的核電廠，禁令到現在仍有效；1996年日本新潟縣卷町經由地方公投案否決卷町核電廠的建設；2014年瑞士伯恩邦曾對核電廠是否應提前關閉進行過地方性的公投。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:20:32.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:21:07.720000+08:00","text":"我們可以看到以媽媽氣候行動聯盟的資料，依照日本核電廠的慣例，啟動之前會先徵得地方政府的同意，他們最近沒有得到地方的同意，想要讓日本最大的新潟柏崎刈羽核電廠重啟運轉，結果有14萬人連署他們要公投，因為依日本的慣例，這個部分其實是要公投的。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:21:12.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:21:32.016000+08:00","text":"剛剛林宜瑾召委也有提到周春米縣長就很直接講公投這個部分是多數暴力，而且在立法院是逕付二讀，事實上沒有尊重屏東人的意見、屏東人的生命安全，他最後寫：屏東要安全、屏東要繁榮、屏東人的命運由我們自己決定。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:21:33.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:21:46.292000+08:00","text":"屏東的立委鍾佳濱現在也在場，待會兒應該也會繼續表達，還有莊瑞雄等幾位屏東的委員都表達反對，主委，以你現在看到的事實認定，這件事情有屏東的local consent嗎？","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-04-24T11:21:52.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:21:53.059000+08:00","text":"看來是沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:21:53.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:21:54.300000+08:00","text":"看來是沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:21:54.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:05.952000+08:00","text":"那您同不同意這個公投投下去非常的粗暴，跟民主國家比，我們現在很驕傲，我們在一些評比上好像比日本還民主。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:08.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:10.577000+08:00","text":"這樣子是符合民主精神嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:10.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:29.494000+08:00","text":"這個公投沒有local consent，您剛剛講以您的專業都知道要local consent，連個低階核廢料候選場址都要local consent了，現在卻完全忽略地方的民意，這是不是一個不尊重民主程序的公投案？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:30.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:32.357000+08:00","text":"以您了解的local consent有嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王主任秘書重德","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:36.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:42.076000+08:00","text":"我想我們的立場就是尊重公投法還有立法院的決議來辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:43.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:44.299000+08:00","text":"尊重公投法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:44.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:48.703000+08:00","text":"公投法裡面有講低階核廢料需要local consent嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"王主任秘書重德","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:50.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:53.845000+08:00","text":"以低階核廢料選址條例來講，它算是特別法……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:53.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:56.227000+08:00","text":"對，只是因為你們沒有一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王主任秘書重德","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:56.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:22:59.610000+08:00","text":"就general的公投法，這個不是屬於地方公投的事項。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:22:59.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:23:11.161000+08:00","text":"這就是我希望你們去了解的，針對低階核廢料，因為這裡把local consent具體明文化了，所以候選場址得不到同意就走不下去，因為地方政府都反對。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:23:12.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:23:59.664000+08:00","text":"今天就是因為我們延役的東西沒有一個很清楚的法規，針對安全評估怎麼樣處理也要local consent，所以現在會出現粗暴的核三延役公投案，完全不尊重屏東縣政府、屏東的立委，他們表達的意見就是他們反對，立委被選出來當然代表民意，縣長被選出來也代表民意，主委你是不是可以研議一下，就是比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例相關的研議，最壞的情況如果這個粗暴公投通過的話，當然我們是反對的，是否你可以去研議相關的修法？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:00.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:24:04.246000+08:00","text":"就是比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:07.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:24:25.311000+08:00","text":"當年建一個核電廠，40年前臺灣不是一個民主國家，40年後連低階核廢料都要當地居民同意了，剛剛主委所說的專業術語local consent，是不是也應該把這個精神放在相關延役與否及安全評估的法規中呢？","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:26.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:24:28.013000+08:00","text":"可以去研議吧，我請你研議喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:31.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:24:34.759000+08:00","text":"這由主委來答好了，去研議好嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:35.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:24:38.481000+08:00","text":"關於延役的部分，目前是沒有需要經過公投。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:39.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:24:43.005000+08:00","text":"對，目前沒有，但是我們可以修法，主管機關是核安會嘛！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:44.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:24:50.650000+08:00","text":"針對低放射性最終處置場設置條例，你們是不是也是相關的主管機關？對。是嘛！","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:52.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:24:54.013000+08:00","text":"既然這樣，你們可以比照它去研議吧？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:56.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:24:57.015000+08:00","text":"研議耶，主委！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-04-24T11:24:57.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:25:00.779000+08:00","text":"當然這是可以討論的議題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:25:00.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:25:03.842000+08:00","text":"好，那就請主委去研議好嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-04-24T11:25:03.842000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:25:04.842000+08:00","text":"好，我們會討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:25:03.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:25:12.091000+08:00","text":"關於研議，可不可以3個月之內給我們一個報告、給本席一個報告，初步的就好，看看其他國家的經驗，好不好？好！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-04-24T11:25:12.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:25:12.331000+08:00","text":"謝謝主委。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:25:12.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-24T11:25:12.411000+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員，主委請回。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:25:12.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:25:17.482429+08:00","text":"我們接下來先來處理臨時提案，請宣讀。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:25:17.782429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:25:56.925286+08:00","text":"核電廠終有除役之日，美國核能管制會（NRC）專家曾表示，如果核電廠不停機就呈交除役計畫書，輻射量尚未穩定降下，對於輻射前置調查作業恐欠缺準確的估算，例如反應爐區的管線、反應爐壓力槽和燃料棒之間的空間等，即無法掌握輻射量多寡；無法準確掌握輻射污染程度，即無法準確掌握除役過程需要的清理經費及人力需求。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:25:57.225286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:26:38.368143+08:00","text":"為避免紙上作業的拆除計畫書與實際現場執行產生嚴重落差，導致最後除役經費暴增，或造成輻射擴散，危及周遭居民及第一線除役人員的健康，或使輻射污染繼續殘留在核電廠區等嚴重問題，建請核安會對於核電拆除計畫書應嚴加審查，同時未雨綢繆，加緊培訓專業除役人員，並對核三二號機停機除役工作儘早研謀因應，俾能善盡核安監管之責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:26:38.668143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:26:39.668143+08:00","text":"林宜瑾","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:26:39.968143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:26:42.253857+08:00","text":"郭昱晴　　張雅琳　　范　雲","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:26:42.553857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:26:43.553857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:26:43.853857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:27:12.711000+08:00","text":"這個案子是本席的臨時提案，我的目的就是要求核安會針對即將停機的核三2號機，無論如何一定要嚴加審查拆除計畫書以及一切除役的相關工作，同時也要有足夠的專業除役人員來保障職場安全，讓相關的除役工作可以落實、安全能夠被確保。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:27:13.011000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:27:16.153857+08:00","text":"請教委員有沒有其他意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:27:16.453857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:27:21.025286+08:00","text":"（無）如果沒有其他意見，核安會主委這裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-04-24T11:27:21.325286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:27:24.468143+08:00","text":"核安會可以同意這個提案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:27:24.768143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:27:28.768143+08:00","text":"好，我們這個案子就照案通過，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-24T11:27:29.068143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-24T11:27:35.068143+08:00","text":"接下來繼續質詢，我們首先請鍾佳濱委員，時間4分鐘。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時17分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["范委員雲：陳主委早安。剛剛有幾位委員都有講到上個禮拜五台灣民眾黨黨團在院會臨時提出公投案，試圖透過公投針對第三核能發電廠，用他們的話語叫做繼續運轉，當然主文是問：你是否同意在經過整體安全評估後，恢復繼續運轉。針對這個問題，剛剛主委有談到您的用語叫做local consent是不是？"],["陳主任委員明真：對，local consent。"],["范委員雲：翻成中文就是在地同意嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["范委員雲：其實針對延役的事情，我們沒有法規清楚規範安全評估要怎麼行使local consent，可是根據低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例，光一個低階放射性廢棄物的候選場址本身，都必須要經當地縣市公民投票同意才能夠成為候選場址，這個部分很明確就是local consent（在地同意）對不對？"],["陳主任委員明真：是。"],["范委員雲：剛剛伍麗華委員也有提到金門烏坵跟臺東達仁被選為低階放射性廢棄物的候選場址，依法要進行地方公投，可是他們連辦都拒絕辦，他們覺得辦好像就已經變成是有可能同意了，所以地方政府的立場非常清楚，依法他們應該要辦，可是他們拒絕辦，所以程序就走不下去嘛！因為地方政府直接跳出來反對，所以就沒有local consent了對不對？也因此我們連低階的核廢料處置都有問題。你要反駁一下，剛剛居然有民眾黨委員說全世界只有芬蘭有最終處置場，意思就是說大家都沒有高階核廢料最終處置場，所以現在繼續有核電廠沒問題，它忽略了一個很重要的事情，很多國家其實有低階的核廢料處置場，人家地大物博，跟我們非常不一樣，我們現在是連低階核廢料最終處置場的候選場址都沒有，當候選的都不願意了，更何況是最後被選定。我們查一下國際上的資料，1976年美國加州全民公投訂了一個法律，禁止在該州建造新的核電廠，禁令到現在仍有效；1996年日本新潟縣卷町經由地方公投案否決卷町核電廠的建設；2014年瑞士伯恩邦曾對核電廠是否應提前關閉進行過地方性的公投。我們可以看到以媽媽氣候行動聯盟的資料，依照日本核電廠的慣例，啟動之前會先徵得地方政府的同意，他們最近沒有得到地方的同意，想要讓日本最大的新潟柏崎刈羽核電廠重啟運轉，結果有14萬人連署他們要公投，因為依日本的慣例，這個部分其實是要公投的。剛剛林宜瑾召委也有提到周春米縣長就很直接講公投這個部分是多數暴力，而且在立法院是逕付二讀，事實上沒有尊重屏東人的意見、屏東人的生命安全，他最後寫：屏東要安全、屏東要繁榮、屏東人的命運由我們自己決定。屏東的立委鍾佳濱現在也在場，待會兒應該也會繼續表達，還有莊瑞雄等幾位屏東的委員都表達反對，主委，以你現在看到的事實認定，這件事情有屏東的local consent嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：看來是沒有。"],["范委員雲：看來是沒有嘛！那您同不同意這個公投投下去非常的粗暴，跟民主國家比，我們現在很驕傲，我們在一些評比上好像比日本還民主。這樣子是符合民主精神嗎？這個公投沒有local consent，您剛剛講以您的專業都知道要local consent，連個低階核廢料候選場址都要local consent了，現在卻完全忽略地方的民意，這是不是一個不尊重民主程序的公投案？以您了解的local consent有嗎？"],["王主任秘書重德：我想我們的立場就是尊重公投法還有立法院的決議來辦理。"],["范委員雲：尊重公投法？公投法裡面有講低階核廢料需要local consent嗎？"],["王主任秘書重德：以低階核廢料選址條例來講，它算是特別法……"],["范委員雲：對，只是因為你們沒有一個……"],["王主任秘書重德：就general的公投法，這個不是屬於地方公投的事項。"],["范委員雲：這就是我希望你們去了解的，針對低階核廢料，因為這裡把local consent具體明文化了，所以候選場址得不到同意就走不下去，因為地方政府都反對。今天就是因為我們延役的東西沒有一個很清楚的法規，針對安全評估怎麼樣處理也要local consent，所以現在會出現粗暴的核三延役公投案，完全不尊重屏東縣政府、屏東的立委，他們表達的意見就是他們反對，立委被選出來當然代表民意，縣長被選出來也代表民意，主委你是不是可以研議一下，就是比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例相關的研議，最壞的情況如果這個粗暴公投通過的話，當然我們是反對的，是否你可以去研議相關的修法？就是比照低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址設置條例。當年建一個核電廠，40年前臺灣不是一個民主國家，40年後連低階核廢料都要當地居民同意了，剛剛主委所說的專業術語local consent，是不是也應該把這個精神放在相關延役與否及安全評估的法規中呢？可以去研議吧，我請你研議喔！這由主委來答好了，去研議好嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：關於延役的部分，目前是沒有需要經過公投。"],["范委員雲：對，目前沒有，但是我們可以修法，主管機關是核安會嘛！針對低放射性最終處置場設置條例，你們是不是也是相關的主管機關？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["范委員雲：是嘛！既然這樣，你們可以比照它去研議吧？研議耶，主委！"],["陳主任委員明真：當然這是可以討論的議題。"],["范委員雲：好，那就請主委去研議好嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：好，我們會討論。"],["范委員雲：關於研議，可不可以3個月之內給我們一個報告、給本席一個報告，初步的就好，看看其他國家的經驗，好不好？"],["陳主任委員明真：好！"],["范委員雲：謝謝主委。"],["陳主任委員明真：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，主委請回。","我們接下來先來處理臨時提案，請宣讀。","案由：","核電廠終有除役之日，美國核能管制會（NRC）專家曾表示，如果核電廠不停機就呈交除役計畫書，輻射量尚未穩定降下，對於輻射前置調查作業恐欠缺準確的估算，例如反應爐區的管線、反應爐壓力槽和燃料棒之間的空間等，即無法掌握輻射量多寡；無法準確掌握輻射污染程度，即無法準確掌握除役過程需要的清理經費及人力需求。","為避免紙上作業的拆除計畫書與實際現場執行產生嚴重落差，導致最後除役經費暴增，或造成輻射擴散，危及周遭居民及第一線除役人員的健康，或使輻射污染繼續殘留在核電廠區等嚴重問題，建請核安會對於核電拆除計畫書應嚴加審查，同時未雨綢繆，加緊培訓專業除役人員，並對核三二號機停機除役工作儘早研謀因應，俾能善盡核安監管之責。","提案人：林宜瑾","連署人：郭昱晴　　張雅琳　　范　雲"],["主席：好，謝謝。這個案子是本席的臨時提案，我的目的就是要求核安會針對即將停機的核三2號機，無論如何一定要嚴加審查拆除計畫書以及一切除役的相關工作，同時也要有足夠的專業除役人員來保障職場安全，讓相關的除役工作可以落實、安全能夠被確保。","請教委員有沒有其他意見？（無）如果沒有其他意見，核安會主委這裡？"],["陳主任委員明真：核安會可以同意這個提案。"],["主席：好，我們這個案子就照案通過，謝謝。","接下來繼續質詢，我們首先請鍾佳濱委員，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":490,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-8","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","劉書彬","郭昱晴","葉元之","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","林沛祥","范雲","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","徐富癸","翁曉玲"],"page_start":441,"meetingDate":["2025-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1144202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳明真列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144202_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}