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所以你現在有這個權利囉那部長那我們來看一個事情這個其實我也是很這個不雙標的啦對我的母校母院台大醫院前兩天對五一勞動節加班醫院的調查表這個調查表在網路新聞媒體都看得到部長你看過了嗎"},{"start":181.182,"end":198.432,"text":"很明顯的調查表裡面只有兩個選項他是同意到院工作並選擇調移國定假日還有另外一個選擇是同意到院工作並領加班費但是通篇沒有一個是依法休假一日當天不到院工作因為他們很多人是這個老計法保障的"},{"start":199.972,"end":223.877,"text":"這個選項等於是說你強迫他們就只能到院然後再來看看怎麼處理雖然台大醫院的發言人說他們是針對有意願來工作來上班人才調查但是台大醫院工會講的不一樣他們做的調查是75.8%等於76%超過四分之三的他們的會員說他們根本沒有被告知就強迫排進去了"},{"start":226.027,"end":229.732,"text":"假設你是員工你對這個選項這個調查表你有什麼看法呢"},{"start":230.376,"end":253.775,"text":"跟委員報告其實在這個案件上我們有看到我自己也看了那個調查表那台大醫院狀況其實我們已經在4月28號的時候當天已經發函給台北市政府請他們的勞檢來協助瞭解狀況再來一個是我覺得很重要的是如果現在工會的陳情的內容確實的話那就台大醫院所製作的書表看起來"},{"start":256.474,"end":274.799,"text":"應該有三個選項嘛是不太容易讓勞工完整表達他們的想法的所以我們也要建議所有的事業單位就國定假日跟工作日對調的實施不是建議喔雖然衛福部也是管醫院但是這個就勞工的部分你是責任耶"},{"start":276.899,"end":300.684,"text":"所以我現在要說的是我們其實已經在4月28號已經發函要求特市政府做檢查第二個我剛才也說了如果就目前的這個書表的內容來看的話我自己也覺得恐怕是這個不容易讓勞工完整的表達不容易讓勞工完整的表達他們對這個事件的看法我想我自己也是認為是這樣"},{"start":301.544,"end":327.83,"text":"那部長我也跟你講我在醫院工作的一輩子不要擔心總是會有人願意把醫院的工作完成醫院不會因此而因為他們的權益而停止這個對外服務這部分當然陳委員比較有意見比較有經驗今天的主題你把這個勞動部去年2024我也不知道你上任沒有他把它去年定為營造業最弱打擊年他希望整個最弱死亡的人數營造業低於68人可是最後還是有"},{"start":329.351,"end":335.219,"text":"85位勞工因墜落死亡就是去年的數字部長那你知不知道當初為什麼訂個68人呢雖然我知道你剛剛報告65不過媒體是寫68人但是相去不遠你這個目標是怎麼訂出來的為什麼會訂出這個人數"},{"start":346.026,"end":365.613,"text":"過去應該是因為就前三年的一些平均然後定了一個降低30%的目標那今年呢那個是過去定的那這一年呢你定了多少你的目標政策是多少人呢我們目前還是希望能夠做到這個目標那你這樣就停滯啊去年達不到那你今天就繼續你沒有想到要改進嗎"},{"start":368.304,"end":392.83,"text":"不敢把目標降的修正嗎?根文說明其實並不是不想改進我們其實很努力跟包括我們自然屬很多同仁都在進行改進但我們在方法上希望能夠更強化因為實際上面這個做法上還是要實施就像去年確實有沒有達標的狀況可是我們還是希望在這個目標上面盡量我們希望能夠在這個目標上面去做到但重點是方法上要有"},{"start":393.59,"end":410.691,"text":"更重要的狀況我們建議但是行政部門重點是方法上就像委員說的要有新的方法要有強化的做法結果墜落死了85人那你現在又說因為打不到所以不敢把這個標準再繼續"},{"start":411.972,"end":432.61,"text":"做修正那就可以年復一年了在到達這個68年之前永遠不要修正啊我不是這個意思我的意思是說我們都希望能夠精進但精進的重點在於方法所以我們要有更強化的方法有些做法我們要做得更更到位甚至要有新的方法"},{"start":433.17,"end":454.724,"text":"昨天的報告裡面唯一沒有包含的就是這個當然治安法是有規定僱主必須提供符合安全規定的衛生設備及措施防止墜落讓這個物體飛落等等會有崩壞之餘的一些場所引起的危害但是我看了一下其實整個罰則你今天沒有提到罰則的部分如果無人傷亡就罰3萬到30萬"},{"start":457.085,"end":466.751,"text":"有人因此死亡是處三年以下有期徒刑或併科罰金30萬以下受傷人數在三個以上也只需要一年有期徒刑或併科18萬以下的罰金部長你覺得這樣罰則有辦法讓促使僱主提供一個安全的工作環境嗎"},{"start":472.915,"end":496.56,"text":"所以我們就是因為認為這個罰則太輕所以現在所以現在把這個罰則的提高放入了治安法的修法裡面我的意思是說你讓僱主覺得我要提升設備安全設備的措施成本可能比摔死一個人的30萬還要高耶所以你這樣子你這個有恫嚇力嗎所以營造業通常資本雄厚啊所以我們就是覺得罰則不夠"},{"start":498.24,"end":519.664,"text":"所以才在這次的修法裡面放入了罰則的提高就是希望能夠更加的落實相關的法規讓剛剛就像剛剛委員說的希望能夠讓營造業有那個被有恫嚇有恫嚇力你說有恫嚇力或者是他必須要去執行我聽你看你自己的數字齁這個違反這個治安法的法規齁你看越來越高2023年是2000多件2024年是又增加了幾百件"},{"start":526.785,"end":544.24,"text":"當然今年是現在還有一季的資料所以你看你是不是要更加用努力去保障高空作業勞工的安全因為不合格率越高他就是暗示風險就是一直存在甚至一直在提高難怪你的數字達不到標當然我覺得該檢討的部分有沒有做到位的部分"},{"start":544.881,"end":547.723,"text":"我們其實會徹底檢討那很多事情大家都說你有什麼標準那我們常常都是看鄰近國家或其他國家嘛那我想這個數字你知道吧部長你可不可以知道當然你在書面報告有稍微提到了我們有兩天天我們我國因為營造業的勞工最死的比率超過六成"},{"start":564.853,"end":581.888,"text":"那日本是四成新加坡是不到三成那人家是怎麼做到的那右邊這個就是勞研所的研究左邊是個無法改變的事實目前就是這樣子沒有做好那右邊勞研所的研究提到我國並未針對人員墜落預防有直接的訓練而且相關的課程時數不足更沒有實務的這個"},{"start":589.876,"end":606.774,"text":"訓練課程這個研究有提到日本日本是因為這個日本大約四成靠近四成以及他們有將墜落預防的教育那種分為學科跟數科就是說這是知識的東西沒有數科是不行的數科就是實務的訓練"},{"start":608.315,"end":619.702,"text":"在醫院醫學院的訓練也都是如此有知識的但是也有實習實際去操作的部分那這個部分那個而且勞工要受這個相關訓練的一些教育訓練都要相關要都要去做部長那你認為在高空的這麼危險的環境中勞工作的勞工怎麼樣訂立一個制度提供一個正確的公安跟知識跟這個技能部長您訂立要多努力"},{"start":634.231,"end":658.806,"text":"因為方法很具體嘛 就是沒有做的東西很具體嘛 還說你都沒報到謝謝委員建議其實這一次我們也是在職安法的修法裡面把其實過去確實可能在工地會有層層轉包的狀況下 這也造成很多在營建工地裡面的這個風險 包括墜落的風險我們也是把這些相關的責任的整合在這次修法裡面做了放入跟處理這樣子 請部長多費心謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝陳州長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:11:26+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:11:27.441500+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-04-30T09:11:27.441500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:11:28.883000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:11:28.883000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:11:30.324500+08:00","text":"陳委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:11:30.324500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:11:31.766000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:11:31.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:11:53.505000+08:00","text":"部長，明天就是五一勞動節，去年你有代表民進黨黨團去參加勞工大遊行，當時你有說要把勞工的聲音帶進行政部門，哪知道一年後你現在就在行政部門裡，而且你是主管勞工事務的最高機關、勞動部部長。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:11:53.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:11:56.367000+08:00","text":"我想先請教你，你明天會出去面對廣大勞工的訴求和回應嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:11:56.367000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:03.805000+08:00","text":"你明天會去嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:03.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:05.646000+08:00","text":"我明天不會去遊行，但是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:07.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:08.527000+08:00","text":"你會不會去面對他們的訴求？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:08.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:17.469000+08:00","text":"但是其實勞工朋友提出來的一些訴求，我們在部裡面都會討論，而且認真地去思考。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:18.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:20.690000+08:00","text":"這樣的意思是你瞭解他們的訴求是什麼嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:20.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:23.611000+08:00","text":"他們今年有七大訴求，你知道他們的訴求是什麼嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:23.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:24.131000+08:00","text":"知道，當然。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:24.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:25.632000+08:00","text":"你知道他們訴求，講一、兩個來聽。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:27.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:45.840000+08:00","text":"我可以跟你講全部，第一個，大家這次很重要的訴求是反霸凌、要保障的部分，再來，其實很多勞工朋友一直都期望降低工時或者是國假的調整，也包括希望有更多的老年保障，老年的……","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:46.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:52.243000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，你剛上任的時候我有問你，你都忘光了，今天你做了準備。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:52.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:52.883000+08:00","text":"當然我們都知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:54.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:12:57.806000+08:00","text":"對於這些訴求，你們有沒有開始討論一些想法，還是就是放著？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:12:58.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:13:23.409000+08:00","text":"我們當然不會放著，第一個，就像這次我認為不只是勞工團體，有很多勞工朋友現在都很關心霸凌的問題，我們現在也在職安法的修法上，放入霸凌防治專章，就是希望回應這段時間社會對於霸凌議題的期待。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:13:23.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:13:28.475000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，這個部分我們民眾黨也提出了一個專法，我們很努力要推動它。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:13:29.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:13:40.720000+08:00","text":"部長，其實很多人都說換位置換腦袋，但我覺得換位置換腦袋是個負面說法，其實換了位置，你的做事方法會不一樣，但是我想有一些價值是不能改變的。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:13:42+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:13:51.724000+08:00","text":"你現在從監督者變成行政者，你更有行政權力去實現你當年的理想和抱負，以及對勞工的承諾，你是不是同意這個說法，即你現在更有權力去幫助他們？","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:13:58.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:14:02.827000+08:00","text":"在行政方面，當然會有一些行政方面的空間。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:14:02.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:14:08.589000+08:00","text":"你有行政權，不只是監督，像我只能監督勞動部，但是我不能叫勞動部一定要去做什麼，我就沒有這個權力，你現在有這個權力了。","quality":0.673},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:14:10.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:14:23.993000+08:00","text":"部長，我們來看一個事情，其實我也是很不雙標的，對我的母校、母院，這是臺大醫院前兩天對五一勞動節加班意願的調查表，這個調查表在網路、新聞、媒體都看得到，部長，你看過了嗎？看過。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:14:27.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:14:50.013000+08:00","text":"很明顯的，調查表裡面只有兩個選項，一個是同意到院工作並選擇調移國定假日；另外一個選擇是同意到院工作並領加班費，但是通篇沒有一個是依法休假一日，當天不到院工作，因為他們很多人是適用勞基法保障的，沒有這個選項，等於就是強迫他們只能到院，然後再來看看怎麼處理。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:14:50.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:15:09.857000+08:00","text":"雖然臺大醫院的發言人說他們是針對有意願來工作、上班的人進行調查，但是臺大醫院工會講的不一樣，他們做的調查是75.8%，等於76%，超過四分之三的會員說根本沒有被告知，就強迫排進去了。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:15:12.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:15:15.712000+08:00","text":"部長，假設你是員工，對這個選項、這份調查表，你有什麼看法呢？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:15:16.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:15:36.312000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實在這個案件上我們有看到，我自己也看了那份調查表，對臺大醫院的狀況，在4月28號當天我們已經發函給臺北市政府，請他們的勞檢協助了解狀況，再來一個我覺得很重要是，如果現在工會陳情內容確實的話……對啊！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:15:36.312000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:15:37.312000+08:00","text":"他們的調查啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:15:36.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:15:39.775000+08:00","text":"就臺大醫院所製作的書表看起來是不太容易讓……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:15:42.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:15:43.235000+08:00","text":"應該有三個選項嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:15:43.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:15:52.977000+08:00","text":"是不太容易讓勞工完整表達他們的想法，所以我們也要建議所有的事業單位，就國定假日跟工作日對調的實施要進行協商的時候……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:15:53.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:15:54.377000+08:00","text":"部長，不是建議喔！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:15:56.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:00.579000+08:00","text":"雖然衛福部也是管醫院，但就勞工的部分是你的責任欸！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:02.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:03.219000+08:00","text":"對，所以那個……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:03.219000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:04.219000+08:00","text":"要修正欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:04.219000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:05.219000+08:00","text":"不是建議欸！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:03.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:09.541000+08:00","text":"陳委員，我現在要說的是我們其實在4月28號已經發函要求臺北市政府做檢查。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:09.541000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:10.541000+08:00","text":"好，你有動作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:10.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:21.323000+08:00","text":"第二個，我剛才也說了，如果就目前書表的內容來看，我自己也覺得恐怕是不容易讓勞工完整的表達……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:21.323000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:22.323000+08:00","text":"就引導嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:22.323000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:23.323000+08:00","text":"你只有這兩個選擇……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:21.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:26.684000+08:00","text":"不容易讓勞工完整的表達他們對這個事件的看法，我自己也是認為是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:27.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:38.266000+08:00","text":"部長，我也跟你講，我在醫院工作過，不用擔心，總是會有人願意把醫院的工作完成，醫院不會因為他們的權益而停止對外的服務。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:38.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:39.867000+08:00","text":"這部分當然陳委員比較有經驗啦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:39.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:58.835000+08:00","text":"今天的主題，勞動部去年（2024）定為「營造業墜落打擊年」，我也不知道你上任沒有，希望整個墜落死亡的人數，營造業低於68人，可是最後還是有85位勞工因墜落死亡，這是去年的數字。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:16:59.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:16:59.937000+08:00","text":"部長，你曉不曉得當初為什麼訂個68人呢？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:00.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:01.219000+08:00","text":"雖然我知道你剛剛報告是65，不過媒體是寫68人，但是相去不遠，你這個目標是怎麼訂出來的，為什麼會訂出這個人數？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:12.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:17.248000+08:00","text":"過去應該是因為就前三年的平均訂了一個降低30%的目標。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:17.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:17.848000+08:00","text":"好，那今年呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:18.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:21.029000+08:00","text":"那個是過去訂的，這一年呢？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:21.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:21.789000+08:00","text":"你訂了多少？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:22.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:23.410000+08:00","text":"你的目標政策是多少人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:24.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:27.871000+08:00","text":"我們目前當然還是希望能夠做到這個目標。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:28.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:28.852000+08:00","text":"你這樣就停滯啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:29.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:31.613000+08:00","text":"去年達不到，你現在就繼續，你沒有想到要改進嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:34.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:37.485000+08:00","text":"不敢改進、不敢把目標修正嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:17:37.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:17:59.971000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，並不是不想改進，我們其實很努力，包括職安署很多同仁都在進行改進，但我們在方法上希望能夠更強化，因為實際上面這個作法還是要實施，就像去年確實有沒有達標的狀況，可是我們還是希望在這個目標上面儘量去做到，但重點是方法上要有更重要的……","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:18:01.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:18:03.735000+08:00","text":"方法就是我們建議，但是請行政部門要努力嘛！","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:18:03.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:18:09.602000+08:00","text":"重點是方法上，就像委員說的要有新的方法、要有強化的作法。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:18:09.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:18:23.337000+08:00","text":"去年你訂了68人，結果墜落死了85人；你現在又說因為達不到，所以不敢把這個標準再繼續修正，就可以年復一年在到達68人之前，永遠不要修正啊！","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:18:23.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:18:38.590000+08:00","text":"委員不是這個意思，我的意思是說，我們都希望能夠精進，但精進的重點在於方法，所以我們要有更強化的方法，有些作法我們要做得更到位，甚至要有新的方法。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:18:39.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:19:10.950000+08:00","text":"部長，今天你的報告裡面，唯一沒有包含的就是這部分，當然職安法有規定雇主必須提供符合規定的安全衛生設備及措施，防止墜落、物體飛落或崩壞之虞等等引起場所的危害，但是我看了一下，你今天沒有提到罰則的部分，如果無人傷亡，就罰三萬到三十萬；有人因此死亡，他是處三年以下有期徒刑或併科罰金三十萬以下；受傷人數在三個人以上，也只需要一年有期徒刑或併科十八萬以下的罰金。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:19:10.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:19:12.751000+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得這樣的罰則有辦法促使雇主提供一個安全的工作環境嗎？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:19:19.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:19:22.076000+08:00","text":"陳委員，我們就是認為這個罰則太輕，所以現在已經……","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:19:22.076000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:19:23.076000+08:00","text":"你今天沒有談到這部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:19:22.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:19:28.137000+08:00","text":"所以現在把罰則提高，放入了職安法的修法裡面。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:19:28.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:19:39.139000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說，你讓雇主覺得要提升安全設備及措施的成本，可能比摔死一個人的三十萬還要高，這個有恫嚇力嗎？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:19:40.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:19:41.880000+08:00","text":"因為營造業通常資本雄厚啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:19:42.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:00.843000+08:00","text":"對，我們就是覺得罰則不夠，才在這次的修法裡面放入了罰則的提高，就是希望能夠更加地落實相關的法規，就像剛剛委員說的，希望能夠對營造業有恫嚇力，或者是它必須要去執行。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:01.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:19.651000+08:00","text":"部長，你看你們自己的數字，這個違反職安法的法規，你看越來越高，2023年是兩千多件，2024年又增加了幾百件，當然今年還有一季的資料，所以你看，你是不是要更加努力去保障高空作業勞工的安全？是！","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:20.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:24.696000+08:00","text":"因為不合格率越來越高，就是暗示風險一直存在，甚至一直在提高。當然。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:25.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:27.138000+08:00","text":"難怪你的數字不能達標嘛！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:27.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:30.981000+08:00","text":"當然，我覺得該檢討的部分、沒有做到位的部分，我們其實會澈底檢討。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:31.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:31.421000+08:00","text":"對很多事情，大家都問你有什麼標準？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:31.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:32.262000+08:00","text":"我們常常都是看鄰近國家或其他國家的作法，我想這個數字你知道吧！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:32.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:32.542000+08:00","text":"部長，你知道嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:32.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:32.882000+08:00","text":"當然你在書面報告有稍微提到了。有。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:32.882000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:33.882000+08:00","text":"我們輸人很多啦！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:33.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:20:55.397000+08:00","text":"我國因為營造業勞工墜死的比例超過六成，日本是四成，新加坡是不到三成，人家是怎麼做到的？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:20:56.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:21:27.288000+08:00","text":"右邊這個就是勞研所的研究，左邊這個是無法改變的事實，目前就是這樣子，沒有做好；右邊勞研所的研究提到我國並未針對人員墜落預防有直接的訓練，而且相關的課程時數不足，更沒有實務的訓練課程，這個研究有提到日本，日本大約四成、靠近四成，以及他們有將墜落預防的教育內容分為學科跟術科。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:21:29.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:21:42.200000+08:00","text":"部長，一個是知識的東西，但沒有術科是不行的，術科就是實務的訓練，在醫學院的訓練也都是如此，有知識的，也有實習、實際去操作的部分，而且勞工都要接受相關的教育訓練。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:21:42.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:21:45.682000+08:00","text":"部長，你認為在高空這麼危險的環境中工作的勞工，如何訂立一個制度，提供一個正確工安知識跟技能，部長，你們真的一定要多努力啦！好！","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:22:00.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:22:03.533000+08:00","text":"因為方法很具體，就是沒有做的東西很具體，像剛才你都沒有報告到。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:22:03.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:22:22.625000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員建議，其實這一次我們也是在職安法的修法裡面，把過去確實可能在工地會有層層轉包的狀況下，這也造成很多在營建業工地裡面的風險，包括墜落的風險，我們也是把相關的責任進行整合，在這次修法裡面將其放入跟處理。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:22:23.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:22:24.306000+08:00","text":"請部長多費心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-04-30T09:22:24.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:22:24.686000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，謝謝主席。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-04-30T09:22:24.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-04-30T09:22:24.786000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（王委員正旭代）","start":"2025-04-30T09:22:25.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:22:29.857429+08:00","text":"謝謝陳昭姿委員的發言，謝謝部長回應。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"主席（王委員正旭代）","start":"2025-04-30T09:22:30.157429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-04-30T09:22:33.871714+08:00","text":"下一位我們請林月琴委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":149,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時11分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，明天就是五一勞動節，去年你有代表民進黨黨團去參加勞工大遊行，當時你有說要把勞工的聲音帶進行政部門，哪知道一年後你現在就在行政部門裡，而且你是主管勞工事務的最高機關、勞動部部長。我想先請教你，你明天會出去面對廣大勞工的訴求和回應嗎？你明天會去嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我明天不會去遊行，但是……"],["陳委員昭姿：你會不會去面對他們的訴求？"],["洪部長申翰：但是其實勞工朋友提出來的一些訴求，我們在部裡面都會討論，而且認真地去思考。"],["陳委員昭姿：這樣的意思是你瞭解他們的訴求是什麼嗎？他們今年有七大訴求，你知道他們的訴求是什麼嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：知道，當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：你知道他們訴求，講一、兩個來聽。"],["洪部長申翰：我可以跟你講全部，第一個，大家這次很重要的訴求是反霸凌、要保障的部分，再來，其實很多勞工朋友一直都期望降低工時或者是國假的調整，也包括希望有更多的老年保障，老年的……"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長，你剛上任的時候我有問你，你都忘光了，今天你做了準備。"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們都知道。"],["陳委員昭姿：對於這些訴求，你們有沒有開始討論一些想法，還是就是放著？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然不會放著，第一個，就像這次我認為不只是勞工團體，有很多勞工朋友現在都很關心霸凌的問題，我們現在也在職安法的修法上，放入霸凌防治專章，就是希望回應這段時間社會對於霸凌議題的期待。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長，這個部分我們民眾黨也提出了一個專法，我們很努力要推動它。部長，其實很多人都說換位置換腦袋，但我覺得換位置換腦袋是個負面說法，其實換了位置，你的做事方法會不一樣，但是我想有一些價值是不能改變的。你現在從監督者變成行政者，你更有行政權力去實現你當年的理想和抱負，以及對勞工的承諾，你是不是同意這個說法，即你現在更有權力去幫助他們？"],["洪部長申翰：在行政方面，當然會有一些行政方面的空間。"],["陳委員昭姿：你有行政權，不只是監督，像我只能監督勞動部，但是我不能叫勞動部一定要去做什麼，我就沒有這個權力，你現在有這個權力了。部長，我們來看一個事情，其實我也是很不雙標的，對我的母校、母院，這是臺大醫院前兩天對五一勞動節加班意願的調查表，這個調查表在網路、新聞、媒體都看得到，部長，你看過了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：看過。"],["陳委員昭姿：很明顯的，調查表裡面只有兩個選項，一個是同意到院工作並選擇調移國定假日；另外一個選擇是同意到院工作並領加班費，但是通篇沒有一個是依法休假一日，當天不到院工作，因為他們很多人是適用勞基法保障的，沒有這個選項，等於就是強迫他們只能到院，然後再來看看怎麼處理。雖然臺大醫院的發言人說他們是針對有意願來工作、上班的人進行調查，但是臺大醫院工會講的不一樣，他們做的調查是75.8%，等於76%，超過四分之三的會員說根本沒有被告知，就強迫排進去了。部長，假設你是員工，對這個選項、這份調查表，你有什麼看法呢？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，其實在這個案件上我們有看到，我自己也看了那份調查表，對臺大醫院的狀況，在4月28號當天我們已經發函給臺北市政府，請他們的勞檢協助了解狀況，再來一個我覺得很重要是，如果現在工會陳情內容確實的話……"],["陳委員昭姿：對啊！他們的調查啊！"],["洪部長申翰：就臺大醫院所製作的書表看起來是不太容易讓……"],["陳委員昭姿：應該有三個選項嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：是不太容易讓勞工完整表達他們的想法，所以我們也要建議所有的事業單位，就國定假日跟工作日對調的實施要進行協商的時候……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，不是建議喔！雖然衛福部也是管醫院，但就勞工的部分是你的責任欸！"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以那個……"],["陳委員昭姿：要修正欸！不是建議欸！"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，我現在要說的是我們其實在4月28號已經發函要求臺北市政府做檢查。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你有動作。"],["洪部長申翰：第二個，我剛才也說了，如果就目前書表的內容來看，我自己也覺得恐怕是不容易讓勞工完整的表達……"],["陳委員昭姿：就引導嘛！你只有這兩個選擇……"],["洪部長申翰：不容易讓勞工完整的表達他們對這個事件的看法，我自己也是認為是這樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我也跟你講，我在醫院工作過，不用擔心，總是會有人願意把醫院的工作完成，醫院不會因為他們的權益而停止對外的服務。"],["洪部長申翰：這部分當然陳委員比較有經驗啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：今天的主題，勞動部去年（2024）定為「營造業墜落打擊年」，我也不知道你上任沒有，希望整個墜落死亡的人數，營造業低於68人，可是最後還是有85位勞工因墜落死亡，這是去年的數字。部長，你曉不曉得當初為什麼訂個68人呢？雖然我知道你剛剛報告是65，不過媒體是寫68人，但是相去不遠，你這個目標是怎麼訂出來的，為什麼會訂出這個人數？"],["洪部長申翰：過去應該是因為就前三年的平均訂了一個降低30%的目標。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那今年呢？那個是過去訂的，這一年呢？你訂了多少？你的目標政策是多少人？"],["洪部長申翰：我們目前當然還是希望能夠做到這個目標。"],["陳委員昭姿：你這樣就停滯啊！去年達不到，你現在就繼續，你沒有想到要改進嗎？不敢改進、不敢把目標修正嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，並不是不想改進，我們其實很努力，包括職安署很多同仁都在進行改進，但我們在方法上希望能夠更強化，因為實際上面這個作法還是要實施，就像去年確實有沒有達標的狀況，可是我們還是希望在這個目標上面儘量去做到，但重點是方法上要有更重要的……"],["陳委員昭姿：方法就是我們建議，但是請行政部門要努力嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：重點是方法上，就像委員說的要有新的方法、要有強化的作法。"],["陳委員昭姿：去年你訂了68人，結果墜落死了85人；你現在又說因為達不到，所以不敢把這個標準再繼續修正，就可以年復一年在到達68人之前，永遠不要修正啊！"],["洪部長申翰：委員不是這個意思，我的意思是說，我們都希望能夠精進，但精進的重點在於方法，所以我們要有更強化的方法，有些作法我們要做得更到位，甚至要有新的方法。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，今天你的報告裡面，唯一沒有包含的就是這部分，當然職安法有規定雇主必須提供符合規定的安全衛生設備及措施，防止墜落、物體飛落或崩壞之虞等等引起場所的危害，但是我看了一下，你今天沒有提到罰則的部分，如果無人傷亡，就罰三萬到三十萬；有人因此死亡，他是處三年以下有期徒刑或併科罰金三十萬以下；受傷人數在三個人以上，也只需要一年有期徒刑或併科十八萬以下的罰金。部長，你覺得這樣的罰則有辦法促使雇主提供一個安全的工作環境嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，我們就是認為這個罰則太輕，所以現在已經……"],["陳委員昭姿：你今天沒有談到這部分。"],["洪部長申翰：所以現在把罰則提高，放入了職安法的修法裡面。"],["陳委員昭姿：我的意思是說，你讓雇主覺得要提升安全設備及措施的成本，可能比摔死一個人的三十萬還要高，這個有恫嚇力嗎？因為營造業通常資本雄厚啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們就是覺得罰則不夠，才在這次的修法裡面放入了罰則的提高，就是希望能夠更加地落實相關的法規，就像剛剛委員說的，希望能夠對營造業有恫嚇力，或者是它必須要去執行。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你看你們自己的數字，這個違反職安法的法規，你看越來越高，2023年是兩千多件，2024年又增加了幾百件，當然今年還有一季的資料，所以你看，你是不是要更加努力去保障高空作業勞工的安全？"],["洪部長申翰：是！"],["陳委員昭姿：因為不合格率越來越高，就是暗示風險一直存在，甚至一直在提高。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：難怪你的數字不能達標嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：當然，我覺得該檢討的部分、沒有做到位的部分，我們其實會澈底檢討。"],["陳委員昭姿：對很多事情，大家都問你有什麼標準？我們常常都是看鄰近國家或其他國家的作法，我想這個數字你知道吧！部長，你知道嗎？當然你在書面報告有稍微提到了。"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們輸人很多啦！我國因為營造業勞工墜死的比例超過六成，日本是四成，新加坡是不到三成，人家是怎麼做到的？右邊這個就是勞研所的研究，左邊這個是無法改變的事實，目前就是這樣子，沒有做好；右邊勞研所的研究提到我國並未針對人員墜落預防有直接的訓練，而且相關的課程時數不足，更沒有實務的訓練課程，這個研究有提到日本，日本大約四成、靠近四成，以及他們有將墜落預防的教育內容分為學科跟術科。部長，一個是知識的東西，但沒有術科是不行的，術科就是實務的訓練，在醫學院的訓練也都是如此，有知識的，也有實習、實際去操作的部分，而且勞工都要接受相關的教育訓練。部長，你認為在高空這麼危險的環境中工作的勞工，如何訂立一個制度，提供一個正確工安知識跟技能，部長，你們真的一定要多努力啦！"],["洪部長申翰：好！"],["陳委員昭姿：因為方法很具體，就是沒有做的東西很具體，像剛才你都沒有報告到。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員建議，其實這一次我們也是在職安法的修法裡面，把過去確實可能在工地會有層層轉包的狀況下，這也造成很多在營建業工地裡面的風險，包括墜落的風險，我們也是把相關的責任進行整合，在這次修法裡面將其放入跟處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：請部長多費心。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝陳昭姿委員的發言，謝謝部長回應。","下一位我們請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}