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我們請李靜蓉主委李主委有請委員好"},{"start":13.186,"end":33.78,"text":"李主委好我想請教一下李主委就是我們各縣市的選委會的同仁的薪水是由誰來支付的是由中央支付就由中央嘛中選會嘛所以其實我們各縣市選委會的同仁都是由中央中選會來支付相關的薪水嗎所以就是我們所謂的一條邊這樣是吧"},{"start":35.521,"end":58.486,"text":"是好我必須要澄清一下地方的選委會也是由中央選委會來支付薪水而且呢我們也知道就是中央地方一條邊來執行選務工作那在這邊我要請教一下這個我們的李主委就是說我們其實這段時間看到了就是說我們今年大概創下全世界的首例啊也是惡例啦就是"},{"start":60.086,"end":74.861,"text":"把我們的執政黨民進黨發起罷免立法院的35個區域立委喔那現在呢各地混亂的狀況也都在直指這個中選會的不公啊那所以這些日子以來我想大家都有這樣的感受所以我們先來檢討喔就是罷免"},{"start":77.283,"end":98.402,"text":"提议联署不公的状况因为其实在我们的选罢法第75条的规定就是就职未满一年则不得罢免但是呢我们可以看到很多的罢团尤其是民进党的总召柯建民说在113年1月15号也就是我们1月13号选完之后他就开始在准备大罢免了"},{"start":99.002,"end":111.265,"text":"那這樣其實就在鑽我們75條的漏洞喔那當然這個時候我們也有提案希望能夠來去這個填補這個漏洞希望就是改為就是我們75條應該改為應該就職未滿一年者不得為提議連署這樣才能規範這樣的問題可是這個問題目前都還沒有這樣子的中選會也不認同那請問中選會對於這個具體的防制作為目前有嗎"},{"start":126.28,"end":134.946,"text":"這是根據法律的規定中選會依法來執行如果因此說中選會不公那請問一下您認同柯總召可以在去年的1月13就說他們要發起大罷免嗎而且在"},{"start":143.211,"end":165.445,"text":"這個滿一年之後2月1號滿一年2月3號他們就送出了這個中選會就是應該要閉起眼睛不要去看他們也不要去聽他們中選會要公正公平公開所以請不要閉起眼睛我們現在的感受就是中選會就是閉起眼睛半藍不半綠在各方爭議各方攻防的情況之下我們唯有像正義女神一樣要拍眼睛"},{"start":169.808,"end":183.544,"text":"當然要眼睛張開啊可是我們現在看到的中選會就是閉起眼睛就像您剛剛講的中選會就是辦藍不辦綠所以75條法律的規定怎麼會是中選會不公正不中立呢我現在是說"},{"start":184.645,"end":205.671,"text":"因為民進黨在鑽這樣的法律漏洞那中選會對此有沒有什麼樣具體的作為那剛剛您講嘛你們會閉上眼睛法律沒有規定中選會就不能夠違法去執政好 那我們的修法您讚不讚同如果我來修正這一條其實我已經也提案要修正這個部分修法是立法委員是大院的職責好 謝謝主委謝謝主委的認同好 那接下來呢就是中選會在2月1號公告時其實這個部分就是"},{"start":215.146,"end":237.86,"text":"我知道之前有一個公文是問中選會可不可以在這個連署書上可不可以用打字蓋章替代親筆連署那中選會回答是可以嗎只要本人親自簽名就可以喔那其實呢這樣的一個方式當然就會讓人家有一些存疑啦你前面是可以這個就是要用打字蓋章打字抄寫都可以只要本人"},{"start":238.62,"end":245.446,"text":"簽名或蓋章就可以嗎也就是說這一個聯署書如果是用打字再用蓋章那請問這樣是合格的聯署書嗎那個個欄個欄就是用打字的然後本人親自簽名或蓋章對那只要是用打字的然後最後是親自蓋章這個是合格的聯署書對不對對啊那這樣的話你要怎麼去查它是不是違照你要怎麼去查它是不是有問題"},{"start":267.042,"end":289.446,"text":"沒有啊 可以用蓋章喔主要是簽名跟蓋章沒有喔 你們回環是說蓋章或簽名都可以喔也就是說一個連署書用打字的在最後用蓋章 這個是合格的喔蓋章 這個倒刻印章去蓋的大概肉眼也可以做辨識那所以主委的意思這樣就是不合格的喔是這樣的意思嗎倒蓋當然是不合格"},{"start":290.327,"end":293.27,"text":"倒蓋印章當然不合格倒蓋印章不合格我們現場的查隊人員他們會做辨識如果我們發覺是打字的或是抄寫的最後用蓋章的我們其實就可以去查隊"},{"start":307.689,"end":321.465,"text":"去了解他到底是不是這個錯假連署或偽造的我們的查罪人員會做辨識認定那另外我在想請問一下主委就是告發疑似偽造的標準是什麼是依據查核錯誤的鑒數還是憑中選會的感覺憑選務人員的感覺"},{"start":326.09,"end":352.55,"text":"中選會跟這個選務人員不會憑感覺辦事那就是有一定的標準當然有一定的標準那希望中選會要依照這樣的標準去做查對有關於這個死亡連署的部分是各地的戶政機關他們查對的結果有關於是否這個委簽或者是倒蓋這是我們當地的選務機關的人員他們的查對的項目"},{"start":356.173,"end":364.198,"text":"那我想請教一下主委,過去有過市長的罷免案、民代的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉的連署案,也都有疑似偽造的情況請問中選會有沒有告發?有請問告發的時間是什麼時候?告發的時間大概不一啦請問剛我講的這三件,市長的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉連署案,這個都在什麼時候告發?"},{"start":383.455,"end":399.98,"text":"大概會主委如果您忘記了我可以告訴你你們都是在選舉結束之後才告發應該是應該講說是這個查對的程序結束之後結果我們委員會的審查最後的結果根據這個結果才去告發"},{"start":401.243,"end":404.405,"text":"依照你可能忘記了你們這兩件不管是韓院韓市長的一個罷免案跟我們總統副總統的這個連署你們都是在選舉結束之後才去告發的其實我想要跟主委這跟我講的沒有差別啦我想要跟主委探討的是其實其實說真的你現在在一階就已經對於這個這麼多的這個這個"},{"start":426.687,"end":453.158,"text":"疑似偽造文書 疑似這樣的一個狀況 各自法的部分就提出了告發的一個動作其實我想主委應該很清楚 連署是沒有辦法決定結果的是最後人民踏入我們的這個投票所 一票一票的蓋出來才能決定最後是否罷免成功 這個您認同吧我特別要強調的就是說 我們的告發是依法有據的"},{"start":454.139,"end":476.934,"text":"所以我想為什麼你們以前都在選後才告發就是因為確實要由人民一票一票的投出來的結果才能夠影響選舉的結果所以你們以前會選擇在選後來做告發的動作是這樣可是這次是非常罕見的大規模的在選舉第一階段的這個連署之後就開始做這樣的告發"},{"start":477.594,"end":479.156,"text":"2月3號開始收案從2月初開始就不斷的有檢舉案件民間的檢舉案件到檢調機關區"},{"start":498.795,"end":500.975,"text":"減掉機關從2月到3月減掉機關減掉機關從2月到3月一共有14度發函來要我們提供資料所以狀況不一樣狀況不一樣狀況不一樣"},{"start":524.4,"end":529.003,"text":"最終的結果嗎那個跟連署是沒有關係的連署是他有沒有資格那如果你們覺得有偽造或是有這個相關的你們都已經剔除了嘛那當然我想在這邊也在跟主委請教就是說在過去罷免韓市長被告偽造文書被移送法辦之後高雄地檢署是最後不起訴"},{"start":551.275,"end":578.56,"text":"那不起訴的聲明它是說於收集連署的過程中並未有護證系統等方式供查和比對身份的字號亦難期待得以發覺有連署者於提議前已死亡之情勢是被告等人尚難以深知已是偽造斯文罪的這個罪責喔也就是說發起人根本難以事前查對連署書的真假能有這樣的能力的這種選務機構"},{"start":580.06,"end":597.113,"text":"所以呢需要有足以損害於公眾或他人的這個狀況才可以成立那請問一下主委 水務機關都已經把錯誤的或者是這個死亡連署的都已經挑出來的還有足深損害於公眾或他人的機會嗎就是說在連署的過程中"},{"start":602.915,"end":631.374,"text":"你们在我们的选务机关已经把错误的提议联署书挑出来这样还有足深损害于公众或他人吗就像我刚刚讲的最后的人民投票才能够影响那样的结果伪造是被我们认定的道科死亡联署是我们认定的我们认定了就表示他有犯罪的嫌疑他有犯罪的嫌疑刑事诉讼241条我们就应该要告发至于告发之后"},{"start":632.734,"end":640.119,"text":"構成要件該不該當主委那是司法機關的事情這是我們剛剛探討一個問題跟我們剛剛探討一個問題你這次你是主動告發的嘛我們中選會有主動告發然後再來就是說因為時間關係最後一個問題想要請教一下這個主委就是我要跟您探討一下偽造文書的這個問題就是前台中地方法院法官李敬勇"},{"start":656.488,"end":667.778,"text":"曾經要書記官造假筆錄倒填日期依照當時的法官平和的機制如果李金勇法官在1985年11月31號前沒有開庭會因拖延審判而影響考積由假等降為已等獎金也會短少33125元但李法官為了避免被認定延遲審查經將雙方律師2月5號出庭簽下的暫停審判同意書日期篡改為1月31號"},{"start":685.032,"end":712.995,"text":"意圖製造在期限內開庭的假象請問主委當年造假筆錄道田日期的動機是什麼第一個我的答覆第一個這是40年前無罪判決的一個成年老案現在又提出來你說你也想看有什麼真假第二個這個案子沒有查評冊沒有死亡聯署也沒有道科印章"},{"start":713.772,"end":719.938,"text":"主委當年的判決書特別講到說本案被告李靖勇等人行為雖然具偽造之形式然而無罪的理由是因為未身實質損害所以獲判無罪並不是沒有這件事情而是因為沒有實質的損害那請問一下李靖勇我們的主委你當時"},{"start":738.095,"end":745.817,"text":"他們有到清晨十分到你家去大搜索嗎你們有被帶回徵訊一天一夜嗎你們有檢察官申請生壓嗎所以其實這個部分我只是要跟我是要跟主委來探討我沒有要掩飾什麼我只是要跟主委探討我們這樣子的案子應該要偵查的比例原則應該要遵守"},{"start":762.881,"end":770.244,"text":"我覺得您我覺得您非常的幸運因為你們當時有一個可以依法行政的好監察官所以呢才能夠放到這樣的時候如果到今天的話你可能會被這個減掉收穫你可能會被施壓所以所以我覺得您很幸運因為當年遇到了這個可以依法行政的好監察官所以李靜友主委"},{"start":788.972,"end":797.881,"text":"您不要惱羞成怒我現在跟你探討的就是是不是依法行政的問題有沒有依照比例原則我只是覺得你身為一個立法委員怎麼會拿這種40年前的舊案毫無理由的舊案來提出質疑"},{"start":807.811,"end":814.093,"text":"我們現在明年的選舉已經開始用排黑條款最重要的一點是我最重要的一點是要讓全社會都知道就是你提起這個案子無助於隱釋你能的組織性的犯罪無助於隱釋這個組織性系統性犯罪"},{"start":835.6,"end":839.027,"text":"不能夠再繼續參政所以我覺得那個標準要一致謝謝主委"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:33:55.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:33:55.200000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:33:55.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:33:56.543000+08:00","text":"我們請李進勇主委。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-07T10:33:56.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:33:57.244000+08:00","text":"李主委有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:33:57.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:33:57.284000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:34:05.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:34:05.546000+08:00","text":"李主委好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:34:06.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:34:13.812000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下李主委，各縣市選委會同仁的薪水是由誰來支付的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:34:14.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:34:15.073000+08:00","text":"是由中央支付。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:34:15.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:34:27.521000+08:00","text":"就由中央、中選會嘛，所以各縣市選委會的同仁都是由中央、中選會來支付相關的薪水，就是我們所謂的一條鞭，是嗎？是。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:34:28.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:34:38.763000+08:00","text":"我必須要澄清一下，地方的選委會也是由中央選委會來支付薪水，而且我們也知道中央地方一條鞭來執行選務工作。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:34:39.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:34:56.591000+08:00","text":"在這邊我要請教一下李主委，其實在這段時間看到了，我們今年大概創下全世界的首例、也是惡例，就是執政黨民進黨發起罷免立法院的35個區域立委！","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:34:57.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:35:10.464000+08:00","text":"現在各地混亂的狀況也都在直指中選會的不公，這些日子以來我想大家都有這樣的感受，所以我們先來檢討罷免提議連署不公的狀況。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:35:11.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:35:33.543000+08:00","text":"在選罷法第七十五條有規定，就職未滿一年者不得罷免，但是我們可以看到很多的罷團，尤其是民進黨總召柯建銘在113年1月15號，也就是1月13號選完之後他就開始在準備大罷免了，這樣其實就在鑽第七十五條的漏洞。","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:35:34.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:35:42.105000+08:00","text":"當然我們也有提案希望能夠填補這個漏洞，認為第七十五條應該改為，就職未滿一年者不得為提議連署，如此才能規範這樣的問題，可是這個問題目前都還沒有……中選會也不認同。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:35:42.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:35:43.265000+08:00","text":"請問中選會，目前對於這方面有具體的防制作為嗎？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:35:58.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:04.304000+08:00","text":"這是根據法律的規定，中選會依法來執行，如果因此說中選會不公……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:04.304000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:05.304000+08:00","text":"其實這個就是鑽法律漏洞。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:05.304000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:06.304000+08:00","text":"我們沒有辦法接受、我們沒有辦法接受這樣子的指控。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:04.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:06.746000+08:00","text":"請問一下，您認同柯總召可以在去年的1月13日就說他們要發起大罷免嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:06.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:19.394000+08:00","text":"而且在2月1號滿一年之後，2月3號他們就送出了提議連署書。","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:19.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:23.897000+08:00","text":"中選會就是應該要閉起眼睛，不要去看他們、也不要去聽他們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:23.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:27.159000+08:00","text":"中選會要公正、公平、公開……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:27.159000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:28.159000+08:00","text":"所以要閉起眼睛！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:27.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:29.020000+08:00","text":"所以請不要閉起眼睛！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:29.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:33.723000+08:00","text":"我們現在的感受就是中選會就是閉起眼睛、辦藍不辦綠！","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:33.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:34.723000+08:00","text":"請主委要善盡你的職責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:33.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:37.425000+08:00","text":"在各方爭議、各方攻防的情況之下，我們唯有像正義女神一樣要把眼睛矇起來。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:41.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:42.809000+08:00","text":"當然要眼睛張開啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:42.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:43.809000+08:00","text":"眼睛矇起來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:43.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:49.437000+08:00","text":"可是我們現在看到的中選會就是閉起眼睛，就像您剛剛講的，中選會就是辦藍不辦綠！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:49.437000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:50.999000+08:00","text":"還有另外……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:50.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:36:54.883000+08:00","text":"我們是依法執行，依據第七十五條的法律規定，怎麼會是中選會不公正、不中立呢？","quality":0.576},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:36:54.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:02.267000+08:00","text":"我現在是說，因為民進黨在鑽這樣的法律漏洞，那中選會對此有沒有什麼樣的具體的作為？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:02.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:03.547000+08:00","text":"剛剛您講你們會閉上眼睛，針對這個部分……","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:03.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:07.748000+08:00","text":"法律沒有規定，中選會就不能夠違法去執行。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:07.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:09.629000+08:00","text":"那我們的修法您贊不贊同？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:09.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:12.889000+08:00","text":"如果我來修正這一條，其實我也已經提案要修正這個部分。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:13.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:14.690000+08:00","text":"修法是立法委員、是大院的職責，我們予以尊重。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:14.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:15.610000+08:00","text":"謝謝主委，謝謝主委的認同。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:15.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:39.594000+08:00","text":"接下來，中選會在2月1號公告……關於這個部分，我知道之前有一個公文是問中選會，連署書上可不可以用打字、蓋章替代親筆連署，中選會回答可以，只要本人親自簽名就可以。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:40.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:51.981000+08:00","text":"其實這樣的方式當然就會讓人家有一些存疑，既然前面可以，就是用打字、抄寫都可以，只要本人簽名或蓋章就可以。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:52.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:53.583000+08:00","text":"也就是說，這一個連署書如果是打字再用蓋章，請問這樣是合格的連署書嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:53.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:54.343000+08:00","text":"各欄用打字的，然後本人親自簽名或蓋章，這個是……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:54.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:55.444000+08:00","text":"對，只要是用打字的，然後最後是親自蓋章，這個是合格的連署書，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:55.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:56.444000+08:00","text":"這是可以的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:37:55.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:37:57.446000+08:00","text":"對啊，那這樣的話，你要怎麼去查他是不是偽造、你要怎麼去查他是不是有問題？簽名……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:19.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:20.203000+08:00","text":"沒有，可以用蓋章喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:20.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:21.685000+08:00","text":"主要是簽名跟蓋章。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:21.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:25.489000+08:00","text":"沒有，你們的回函是說蓋章或簽名都可以喔！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:25.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:31.235000+08:00","text":"也就是說，一個連署書用打字的，在最後用蓋章，這個是合格的喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:31.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:36.320000+08:00","text":"蓋章這部分如果是盜刻印章去蓋的，大概肉眼也可以做辨識。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:36.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:39.103000+08:00","text":"所以依主委的意思，這樣就是不合格的？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:39.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:40.885000+08:00","text":"是這樣的意思嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:41.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:41.425000+08:00","text":"盜蓋當然是不合格。什麼？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:42.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:43.328000+08:00","text":"盜蓋印章當然不合格、盜刻印章不合格。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:43.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:44.328000+08:00","text":"但是你要怎麼知道這是不是盜蓋？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:43.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:43.368000+08:00","text":"我們現場……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:43.368000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:44.368000+08:00","text":"可以去查對，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:43.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:38:43.688000+08:00","text":"查對人員會做辨識。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:38:43.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:02.593000+08:00","text":"好，那也就是說，如果你們發覺這個是打字或抄寫而最後用蓋章的，其實就可以去查對、去了解他到底是不是錯假連署或偽造的。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:03.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:04.955000+08:00","text":"我們的查對人員會做辨識、認定。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:05.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:12.143000+08:00","text":"另外，我想再請問一下主委，告發疑似偽造的標準是什麼？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:12.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:13.465000+08:00","text":"是依據查核錯誤的件數，還是憑中選會的感覺、憑選務人員的感覺？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:18.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:22.473000+08:00","text":"中選會跟選務人員不會憑感覺辦事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:22.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:23.955000+08:00","text":"那就是有一定的標準，對不對？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:24.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:25.176000+08:00","text":"當然有一定的標準。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:25.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:28.678000+08:00","text":"希望中選會要依照這樣的標準去做查對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:29.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:44.530000+08:00","text":"關於死亡連署的部分，是各地戶政機關查對的結果；關於是否偽簽或者是盜蓋，這是我們當地選務機關人員的查對項目。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:48.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:53.857000+08:00","text":"我請教主委，過去有過市長的罷免案、民代的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉的連署案，也都有疑似偽造的情況，請問中選會有沒有告發？有。有？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:53.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:54.057000+08:00","text":"好，請問告發的時間是什麼時候？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:54.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:54.297000+08:00","text":"告發的時間不一！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:39:54.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:39:56.198000+08:00","text":"請問我剛講的這三件市長的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉連署案，都在什麼時候告發？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:40:15.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:40:16.175000+08:00","text":"大概會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:40:16.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:40:21.757000+08:00","text":"主委，如果您忘記了，我可以告訴你，你們都是在選舉結束之後才告發。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:40:21.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:40:31.980000+08:00","text":"應該講說是查對的程序結束之後，經過我們委員會的審查有最後的結果，根據這個結果才去告發。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:40:33.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:40:35.324000+08:00","text":"您可能忘記了，你們這兩件，不管韓市長的罷免案跟總統、副總統的連署，你們都是在選舉結束之後才去告發的，其實我想要跟主委……","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:40:35.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:40:35.584000+08:00","text":"這跟我講的沒有差別啦，就是最後的審查確認……","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:40:35.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:41:05.170000+08:00","text":"我想要跟主委探討的是，其實說真的，你現在在一階，就已經對於這麼多疑似的偽造文書、疑似這樣的一個狀況，就個資法的部分就提出了告發的動作。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:41:06.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:41:20.156000+08:00","text":"我想主委應該很清楚，連署是沒有辦法決定結果的，是最後人民踏入投票所，一票、一票的蓋出來，才能決定最後是否罷免成功，這個您認同吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:41:21.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:41:25.138000+08:00","text":"我特別要強調的是，我們的告發是依法有據。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:41:26.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:41:41.529000+08:00","text":"所以我想為什麼你們以前都在選後才告發，就是因為確實要有人民一票、一票投出來的結果，才能夠影響選舉的結果，所以你們以前會選擇在選後來做告發的動作。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:41:42.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:41:48.934000+08:00","text":"可是這次是非常罕見的、大規模的在選舉第一階段連署之後，就開始做這樣的告發……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:41:48.934000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:41:49.934000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告一下，我們要看客觀的狀況，這要討論一下，我報告，看你聽不聽得進去……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:41:49.934000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:41:50.934000+08:00","text":"我想這樣子對於中選會來說，我們再次看到不公正的狀況，而且辦藍不辦綠，我們也看到很多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:41:49.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:11.055000+08:00","text":"2月3號開始收案，從2月初開始就不斷的有檢舉案件，是民間的檢舉案件到檢調機關去，檢調機關從2月到3月……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:11.055000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:12.055000+08:00","text":"那為什麼之前在韓市長被罷免案也有人檢舉啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:11.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:12.435000+08:00","text":"檢調機關從2月到3月，一共14度發函，要我們提供資料。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:12.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:13.435000+08:00","text":"主委，我剛剛請教您的是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:12.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:12.935000+08:00","text":"所以狀況不一樣，情況不一樣。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:12.935000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:36.400000+08:00","text":"剛剛請教您的是，這幾個案子是不是都是在選後？","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:36.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:36.880000+08:00","text":"因為最後人民進投票所投票，才會影響最終的結果，那個跟連署是沒有關係的。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:36.880000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:37.880000+08:00","text":"關於那個影響，到底有沒有影響……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:37.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:38.061000+08:00","text":"連署是他有沒有資格，如果你們覺得有偽造或是有相關的，你們都已經剔除了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:38.061000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:39.061000+08:00","text":"這是刑事構成要件，我們留給檢察官來做認定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:38.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:42:41.003000+08:00","text":"我想在這邊跟主委請教，過去罷免韓市長被告偽造文書被移送法辦之後，高雄地檢署最後是不起訴……","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:42:41.003000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:43:03.415000+08:00","text":"不是，早一點告發對於有關證據的保存、證據的蒐集是有幫助的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:43:03.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:43:23.939000+08:00","text":"不起訴的聲明說：於收集連署的過程中，並未有戶役政系統等方式供查核比對身分字號，自亦難期待得以發覺有連署者於提議前已死亡之情事，是被告等人尚難繩以行使偽造私文書罪責。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:43:24.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:43:37.985000+08:00","text":"也就是說，發起人根本難以事前查對連署書的真假，有這樣能力的只有選務機構，所以需要有足以損害於公眾或他人的狀況才可以成立。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:43:38.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:43:48.372000+08:00","text":"請問主委，選務機關都已經把錯誤的或者是死亡連署的挑出來了，還有足生損害於公眾或他人的機會嗎？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:43:48.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:02.200000+08:00","text":"就是說在連署的過程中，選務機關已經把錯誤的提議連署書挑出來了，這樣還有足生損害於公眾或他人嗎？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:02.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:07.223000+08:00","text":"就像我剛剛講的，最後的人民投票才能夠影響那樣的結果……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:07.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:13.347000+08:00","text":"偽造是被我們認定的，盜刻、死亡連署是被我們認定的。","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:13.347000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:14.347000+08:00","text":"所以你們都剔除了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:13.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:16.909000+08:00","text":"我們認定了，就表示他有犯罪的嫌疑……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:16.909000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:17.909000+08:00","text":"對，所以你們都剔除了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:17.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:27.656000+08:00","text":"他有犯罪的嫌疑，依據刑事訴訟法第二百四十一條，我們就應該要告發；至於告發之後的構成要件該不該當，那是司法機關的事情，這跟我們選務機關……我們不必去認定。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:27.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:28.777000+08:00","text":"主委，這是我們剛剛探討的一個問題，這次你是主動告發，對不對？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:28.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:29.297000+08:00","text":"中選會有主動告發，再來就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:29.297000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:30.297000+08:00","text":"不是，我們不必去認定，只要它有偽造的嫌疑……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:29.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:31.158000+08:00","text":"再來，因為時間的關係，最後一個問題想要請教主委，我要跟您探討偽造文書的問題。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:31.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:44:57.916000+08:00","text":"前臺中地方法院法官李進勇曾經要書記官造假筆錄倒填日期，依照當時的法官評核機制，如果李進勇法官在1985年1月31號前沒有開庭，會因拖延審判而影響考績，由甲等降為乙等，獎金也會短少3萬3,125元。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:44:57.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:45:24.999000+08:00","text":"但李法官為了避免被認定延遲審查，竟將雙方律師2月5號出庭簽下的暫停審判同意書日期篡改為1月31號，意圖製造在期限內開庭的假象，請問主委當年造假筆錄倒填日期的動機是什麼？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:45:25.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:45:38.109000+08:00","text":"我的答復，第一個，這是40年前無罪判決的一個陳年老案，現在再拿出來講，你也想想看真實性，第二個……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:45:38.109000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:45:39.109000+08:00","text":"好，當年的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:45:38.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:45:44.975000+08:00","text":"這個案子沒有抄名冊、沒有死亡連署，也沒有盜刻印章，這個跟現在辦的案子完全不一樣……","quality":0.472},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:45:45.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:45:50.677000+08:00","text":"主委，當年的判決書特別講到：本案被告李進勇等人，行為雖然具偽造之形式，然而無罪的理由是因為未生實質損害，所以獲判無罪，並不是沒有這件事情，而是因為沒有實質的損害。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:45:51.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:13.276000+08:00","text":"請問一下李進勇主委，當時他們有清晨時分到你家去大搜索嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:13.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:13.996000+08:00","text":"你們有被帶回偵訊一天一夜嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:14.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:14.596000+08:00","text":"檢察官有申請聲押嗎？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:14.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:15.596000+08:00","text":"我跟委員……我不知道委員舊案重提到底是要掩飾什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:15.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:16.596000+08:00","text":"你到底要掩飾什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:16.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:17.596000+08:00","text":"你要掩飾現在司法機關在辦理的這些偽造案件嗎？","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:14.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:17.657000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分，我是要跟主委來探討，我沒有要掩飾什麼，我只是要跟主委探討，我們這樣子的案子應該要遵守偵查的比例原則……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:17.657000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:35.181000+08:00","text":"我的案子不足以掩飾鋪天蓋地的、組織性、系統性的犯罪行為……","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:35.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:42.004000+08:00","text":"我覺得您非常地幸運，因為你們當時有一個可以依法行政的好法官，所以才能夠這樣；如果是今天的話，你可能會被檢調搜索、你可能會被羈押，所以我覺得您很幸運，因為當年遇到了可以依法行政的好法官……","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:42.004000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:46:43.004000+08:00","text":"我沒有抄名冊，也沒有偽造簽名、沒有盜刻印章，所以你提這個案子，無助於澄清你們組織性的犯罪。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:46:42.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:47:02.634000+08:00","text":"所以李進勇主委，您不要惱羞成怒。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:47:02.634000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:47:03.634000+08:00","text":"我不會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:47:02.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:47:08.340000+08:00","text":"我現在跟你探討的就是，是不是依法行政的問題、有沒有依照比例原則，謝謝。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:47:08.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:47:09.861000+08:00","text":"我只是覺得你身為一個立法委員，怎麼會拿這種40年前的舊案，毫無理由的舊案來提出質疑。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:47:09.861000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:47:22.112000+08:00","text":"不管是幾年前，明年的選舉已經開始用排黑條款，它是溯及既往，不管你多少年，你曾經犯過罪，依排黑條款，你就必須沒有辦法選舉，當時你為什麼不講這40年前的怎麼可以這樣做？","quality":0.208},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-05-07T10:47:22.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:47:26.073000+08:00","text":"你這個質疑的目的，最重要的一點是要讓全社會知道，你提起這案子，無助於掩飾你們組織性的犯罪，無助於掩飾你們組織性、系統性的犯罪。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2025-05-07T10:47:47.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-07T10:47:51.007000+08:00","text":"所以李進勇主委，你不能自己一套標準，對別人是另一套標準，否則現在的排黑條款就不該溯及既往，你只要曾經犯罪，你就不能夠再繼續參政，所以我覺得標準要一致，謝謝主委。","quality":0.306},{"speaker":"主席（王委員美惠代）","start":"2025-05-07T10:47:51.507000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:47:54.935571+08:00","text":"我們感謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（王委員美惠代）","start":"2025-05-07T10:47:55.235571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-07T10:47:58.092714+08:00","text":"我們請牛煦庭召委質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時33分）謝謝主席。我們請李進勇主委。"],["主席：李主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：李主委好。我想請教一下李主委，各縣市選委會同仁的薪水是由誰來支付的？"],["李主任委員進勇：是由中央支付。"],["許委員宇甄：就由中央、中選會嘛，所以各縣市選委會的同仁都是由中央、中選會來支付相關的薪水，就是我們所謂的一條鞭，是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我必須要澄清一下，地方的選委會也是由中央選委會來支付薪水，而且我們也知道中央地方一條鞭來執行選務工作。","在這邊我要請教一下李主委，其實在這段時間看到了，我們今年大概創下全世界的首例、也是惡例，就是執政黨民進黨發起罷免立法院的35個區域立委！現在各地混亂的狀況也都在直指中選會的不公，這些日子以來我想大家都有這樣的感受，所以我們先來檢討罷免提議連署不公的狀況。在選罷法第七十五條有規定，就職未滿一年者不得罷免，但是我們可以看到很多的罷團，尤其是民進黨總召柯建銘在113年1月15號，也就是1月13號選完之後他就開始在準備大罷免了，這樣其實就在鑽第七十五條的漏洞。當然我們也有提案希望能夠填補這個漏洞，認為第七十五條應該改為，就職未滿一年者不得為提議連署，如此才能規範這樣的問題，可是這個問題目前都還沒有……中選會也不認同。請問中選會，目前對於這方面有具體的防制作為嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：這是根據法律的規定，中選會依法來執行，如果因此說中選會不公……"],["許委員宇甄：其實這個就是鑽法律漏洞。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們沒有辦法接受、我們沒有辦法接受這樣子的指控。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，您認同柯總召可以在去年的1月13日就說他們要發起大罷免嗎？而且在2月1號滿一年之後，2月3號他們就送出了提議連署書。"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會就是應該要閉起眼睛，不要去看他們、也不要去聽他們……"],["許委員宇甄：中選會要公正、公平、公開……"],["李主任委員進勇：所以要閉起眼睛！"],["許委員宇甄：所以請不要閉起眼睛！我們現在的感受就是中選會就是閉起眼睛、辦藍不辦綠！請主委要善盡你的職責。"],["李主任委員進勇：在各方爭議、各方攻防的情況之下，我們唯有像正義女神一樣要把眼睛矇起來。"],["許委員宇甄：當然要眼睛張開啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：眼睛矇起來。"],["許委員宇甄：可是我們現在看到的中選會就是閉起眼睛，就像您剛剛講的，中選會就是辦藍不辦綠！還有另外……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是依法執行，依據第七十五條的法律規定，怎麼會是中選會不公正、不中立呢？"],["許委員宇甄：我現在是說，因為民進黨在鑽這樣的法律漏洞，那中選會對此有沒有什麼樣的具體的作為？剛剛您講你們會閉上眼睛，針對這個部分……"],["李主任委員進勇：法律沒有規定，中選會就不能夠違法去執行。"],["許委員宇甄：那我們的修法您贊不贊同？如果我來修正這一條，其實我也已經提案要修正這個部分。"],["李主任委員進勇：修法是立法委員、是大院的職責，我們予以尊重。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝主委，謝謝主委的認同。","接下來，中選會在2月1號公告……關於這個部分，我知道之前有一個公文是問中選會，連署書上可不可以用打字、蓋章替代親筆連署，中選會回答可以，只要本人親自簽名就可以。其實這樣的方式當然就會讓人家有一些存疑，既然前面可以，就是用打字、抄寫都可以，只要本人簽名或蓋章就可以。也就是說，這一個連署書如果是打字再用蓋章，請問這樣是合格的連署書嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：各欄用打字的，然後本人親自簽名或蓋章，這個是……"],["許委員宇甄：對，只要是用打字的，然後最後是親自蓋章，這個是合格的連署書，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：這是可以的。"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，那這樣的話，你要怎麼去查他是不是偽造、你要怎麼去查他是不是有問題？"],["李主任委員進勇：簽名……"],["許委員宇甄：沒有，可以用蓋章喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：主要是簽名跟蓋章。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有，你們的回函是說蓋章或簽名都可以喔！也就是說，一個連署書用打字的，在最後用蓋章，這個是合格的喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：蓋章這部分如果是盜刻印章去蓋的，大概肉眼也可以做辨識。"],["許委員宇甄：所以依主委的意思，這樣就是不合格的？是這樣的意思嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：盜蓋當然是不合格。"],["許委員宇甄：什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：盜蓋印章當然不合格、盜刻印章不合格。"],["許委員宇甄：但是你要怎麼知道這是不是盜蓋？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們現場……"],["許委員宇甄：可以去查對，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：查對人員會做辨識。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那也就是說，如果你們發覺這個是打字或抄寫而最後用蓋章的，其實就可以去查對、去了解他到底是不是錯假連署或偽造的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的查對人員會做辨識、認定。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，我想再請問一下主委，告發疑似偽造的標準是什麼？是依據查核錯誤的件數，還是憑中選會的感覺、憑選務人員的感覺？"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會跟選務人員不會憑感覺辦事。"],["許委員宇甄：那就是有一定的標準，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：當然有一定的標準。"],["許委員宇甄：希望中選會要依照這樣的標準去做查對。"],["李主任委員進勇：關於死亡連署的部分，是各地戶政機關查對的結果；關於是否偽簽或者是盜蓋，這是我們當地選務機關人員的查對項目。"],["許委員宇甄：我請教主委，過去有過市長的罷免案、民代的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉的連署案，也都有疑似偽造的情況，請問中選會有沒有告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：有。"],["許委員宇甄：有？好，請問告發的時間是什麼時候？"],["李主任委員進勇：告發的時間不一！"],["許委員宇甄：請問我剛講的這三件市長的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉連署案，都在什麼時候告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：大概會……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，如果您忘記了，我可以告訴你，你們都是在選舉結束之後才告發。"],["李主任委員進勇：應該講說是查對的程序結束之後，經過我們委員會的審查有最後的結果，根據這個結果才去告發。"],["許委員宇甄：您可能忘記了，你們這兩件，不管韓市長的罷免案跟總統、副總統的連署，你們都是在選舉結束之後才去告發的，其實我想要跟主委……"],["李主任委員進勇：這跟我講的沒有差別啦，就是最後的審查確認……"],["許委員宇甄：我想要跟主委探討的是，其實說真的，你現在在一階，就已經對於這麼多疑似的偽造文書、疑似這樣的一個狀況，就個資法的部分就提出了告發的動作。我想主委應該很清楚，連署是沒有辦法決定結果的，是最後人民踏入投票所，一票、一票的蓋出來，才能決定最後是否罷免成功，這個您認同吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：我特別要強調的是，我們的告發是依法有據。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我想為什麼你們以前都在選後才告發，就是因為確實要有人民一票、一票投出來的結果，才能夠影響選舉的結果，所以你們以前會選擇在選後來做告發的動作。可是這次是非常罕見的、大規模的在選舉第一階段連署之後，就開始做這樣的告發……"],["李主任委員進勇：我跟委員報告一下，我們要看客觀的狀況，這要討論一下，我報告，看你聽不聽得進去……"],["許委員宇甄：我想這樣子對於中選會來說，我們再次看到不公正的狀況，而且辦藍不辦綠，我們也看到很多。"],["李主任委員進勇：2月3號開始收案，從2月初開始就不斷的有檢舉案件，是民間的檢舉案件到檢調機關去，檢調機關從2月到3月……"],["許委員宇甄：那為什麼之前在韓市長被罷免案也有人檢舉啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：檢調機關從2月到3月，一共14度發函，要我們提供資料。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我剛剛請教您的是……"],["李主任委員進勇：所以狀況不一樣，情況不一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛請教您的是，這幾個案子是不是都是在選後？因為最後人民進投票所投票，才會影響最終的結果，那個跟連署是沒有關係的。"],["李主任委員進勇：關於那個影響，到底有沒有影響……"],["許委員宇甄：連署是他有沒有資格，如果你們覺得有偽造或是有相關的，你們都已經剔除了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：這是刑事構成要件，我們留給檢察官來做認定……"],["許委員宇甄：我想在這邊跟主委請教，過去罷免韓市長被告偽造文書被移送法辦之後，高雄地檢署最後是不起訴……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，早一點告發對於有關證據的保存、證據的蒐集是有幫助的……"],["許委員宇甄：不起訴的聲明說：於收集連署的過程中，並未有戶役政系統等方式供查核比對身分字號，自亦難期待得以發覺有連署者於提議前已死亡之情事，是被告等人尚難繩以行使偽造私文書罪責。也就是說，發起人根本難以事前查對連署書的真假，有這樣能力的只有選務機構，所以需要有足以損害於公眾或他人的狀況才可以成立。請問主委，選務機關都已經把錯誤的或者是死亡連署的挑出來了，還有足生損害於公眾或他人的機會嗎？就是說在連署的過程中，選務機關已經把錯誤的提議連署書挑出來了，這樣還有足生損害於公眾或他人嗎？就像我剛剛講的，最後的人民投票才能夠影響那樣的結果……"],["李主任委員進勇：偽造是被我們認定的，盜刻、死亡連署是被我們認定的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你們都剔除了？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們認定了，就表示他有犯罪的嫌疑……"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以你們都剔除了。"],["李主任委員進勇：他有犯罪的嫌疑，依據刑事訴訟法第二百四十一條，我們就應該要告發；至於告發之後的構成要件該不該當，那是司法機關的事情，這跟我們選務機關……我們不必去認定。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，這是我們剛剛探討的一個問題，這次你是主動告發，對不對？中選會有主動告發，再來就是……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，我們不必去認定，只要它有偽造的嫌疑……"],["許委員宇甄：再來，因為時間的關係，最後一個問題想要請教主委，我要跟您探討偽造文書的問題。前臺中地方法院法官李進勇曾經要書記官造假筆錄倒填日期，依照當時的法官評核機制，如果李進勇法官在1985年1月31號前沒有開庭，會因拖延審判而影響考績，由甲等降為乙等，獎金也會短少3萬3,125元。但李法官為了避免被認定延遲審查，竟將雙方律師2月5號出庭簽下的暫停審判同意書日期篡改為1月31號，意圖製造在期限內開庭的假象，請問主委當年造假筆錄倒填日期的動機是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：我的答復，第一個，這是40年前無罪判決的一個陳年老案，現在再拿出來講，你也想想看真實性，第二個……"],["許委員宇甄：好，當年的……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個案子沒有抄名冊、沒有死亡連署，也沒有盜刻印章，這個跟現在辦的案子完全不一樣……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，當年的判決書特別講到：本案被告李進勇等人，行為雖然具偽造之形式，然而無罪的理由是因為未生實質損害，所以獲判無罪，並不是沒有這件事情，而是因為沒有實質的損害。請問一下李進勇主委，當時他們有清晨時分到你家去大搜索嗎？你們有被帶回偵訊一天一夜嗎？檢察官有申請聲押嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我跟委員……我不知道委員舊案重提到底是要掩飾什麼？你到底要掩飾什麼？你要掩飾現在司法機關在辦理的這些偽造案件嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：所以這個部分，我是要跟主委來探討，我沒有要掩飾什麼，我只是要跟主委探討，我們這樣子的案子應該要遵守偵查的比例原則……"],["李主任委員進勇：我的案子不足以掩飾鋪天蓋地的、組織性、系統性的犯罪行為……"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得您非常地幸運，因為你們當時有一個可以依法行政的好法官，所以才能夠這樣；如果是今天的話，你可能會被檢調搜索、你可能會被羈押，所以我覺得您很幸運，因為當年遇到了可以依法行政的好法官……"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有抄名冊，也沒有偽造簽名、沒有盜刻印章，所以你提這個案子，無助於澄清你們組織性的犯罪。"],["許委員宇甄：所以李進勇主委，您不要惱羞成怒。"],["李主任委員進勇：我不會。"],["許委員宇甄：我現在跟你探討的就是，是不是依法行政的問題、有沒有依照比例原則，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：我只是覺得你身為一個立法委員，怎麼會拿這種40年前的舊案，毫無理由的舊案來提出質疑。"],["許委員宇甄：不管是幾年前，明年的選舉已經開始用排黑條款，它是溯及既往，不管你多少年，你曾經犯過罪，依排黑條款，你就必須沒有辦法選舉，當時你為什麼不講這40年前的怎麼可以這樣做？"],["李主任委員進勇：你這個質疑的目的，最重要的一點是要讓全社會知道，你提起這案子，無助於掩飾你們組織性的犯罪，無助於掩飾你們組織性、系統性的犯罪。"],["許委員宇甄：所以李進勇主委，你不能自己一套標準，對別人是另一套標準，否則現在的排黑條款就不該溯及既往，你只要曾經犯罪，你就不能夠再繼續參政，所以我覺得標準要一致，謝謝主委。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：我們感謝許宇甄委員的質詢。我們請牛煦庭召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","高金素梅","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":113,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}