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謝謝召委 請李主任跟秀發部的吳副處長請李主任"},{"start":16.466,"end":38.276,"text":"這個法案內容我支持沒有特別意見但我想要關心一下反倒是TikTok的一些用戶的個資的問題這個部分全世界世界各國大家也高度在重視那我先問一下主任中共能不能取得TikTok的個資就你的了解因為畢竟是他們國家的非公務機關"},{"start":39.81,"end":61.623,"text":"理論上我覺得應該他們對於他要求提出資料在他們的國家法制是應該是可以達到的可以達到啦他也很難拒絕啦因為在專制共產的國家他很難拒絕光馬雲都無法抵抗的TikTok應該很難抵抗他們有一個數據安全法是國家可以要求他們所以他們的數據安全法是直接可以要求的"},{"start":63.027,"end":80.923,"text":"所以這個部分Ttalk是可以直接取得相關這些個資的那這樣的狀況下大家就會高度的擔憂了那我們的很多的包括世界各國包括台灣自己也會關心我們的個資會不會因為在Ttalk這邊而被中共所取得主任擔不擔心這樣的狀況的發生"},{"start":82.819,"end":111.638,"text":"是當然這個也是應該一樣會被各自保護議題要被關注的那我們在未來的部分我們會有沒有辦法來強化這一塊的一個安全的維護的工作在資訊安全各自的安全的部分會 剛剛在前面委員在追尋這樣的一個說其他境外的這些業者當然一個就是管轄權的部分現階段因為畢竟現行的各自法以及整個發展過程裡面就是一個內國法"},{"start":113.039,"end":128.689,"text":"那像這種完全不落地的 他的管轄權要來形成我剛剛也有說明說在第二階段的各自法的大修裡面會處理這個議題 就是對這種他完全不落地的所以主任會要求這個將來必須要落地嗎"},{"start":129.389,"end":145.356,"text":"我覺得現在因為炸房已經有這樣子的一個你如果不落地的話你炸片的一堆或什麼的你對他幾乎完全是沒有約束力嘛是是是美國都還可以要求聽證位要求他來談台灣你要TikTok我不知道處長如果現在要TikTok是邀誰來"},{"start":146.956,"end":169.905,"text":"現在因為現場只要按照是分管機制所以就要再請這類的我問您就您的了解如果是要邀請TikTok的人認為他有相關的疑慮要來台灣做說明政府來做說明邀請誰來他來不來可能以這部分當然可能等一下先請問一下以處長主委你的了解有沒有"},{"start":171.765,"end":193.067,"text":"現在有沒有被邀還是 如果要邀的話可以邀誰來 他願不願意來喔是有嗎 是希望他進來落地投資還是說 進來說明再說明就好了 假如我們有一個任何一個聽證或是一個公聽會的時候 要他來說明的時候這部分我看 是不是等一下請那個書發部書發部要不要說明一下 有嗎 有這樣的人可以說明嗎"},{"start":196.096,"end":211.647,"text":"我們補充報告 目前在打詐條例的部分我們是針對國際版的T-talk的部分 它現在我們還在審查中但他們在台灣有聯絡人 因此在打詐的事務上台灣的聯絡人是誰 什麼樣的層級他們有一個台灣的連聯絡人是誰都還不是那麼清楚現在委員報告他就是會有一位就是在台灣這邊負責是做"},{"start":221.021,"end":226.087,"text":"那個是就是業務接洽的部分所以是做業務接洽所以他的指稱是這個就是最大的問題啦那我問你啦 他不來的話我們有辦法約束他嗎"},{"start":235.351,"end":263.413,"text":"市報委員現在他其實我們在審核他的資格當中就針對國際版TikTok有沒有要設法律代表部分這個我們現在也在想這個就是我提到的問題我請包括主任包括那個書法部都是要思考的如果我們連人家美國是要聽證會的他的執行長還要來做個說明任何的都做說明如果來到了台灣賺台灣人的錢賺台灣的所有利益的時候然後你連請他來請誰來都還請不清楚"},{"start":265.214,"end":282.72,"text":"他一個代表可能某某先生而已他能不能代表Ttalk也沒有人知道能不能對他有任何約束行為也沒有甚至於如果我們認為他有相關的要約束他的話也沒有那這樣的狀況下你怎麼Ttalk等於是形同如入無人之境形同沒有管轄一樣"},{"start":284.295,"end":309.653,"text":"那我沒有認為剛剛主任講到了TikTok所有的東西資訊是為中共政府是可以掌握得到的那到底對台灣的權益保障在哪裡所以我認為這個部分請資訊包括我們的訴發部要加快這個相關的動作如果這樣的話形同他可以賺台灣人的利益進入台灣的市場就完全不用負擔任何責任的義務的這是沒有辦法接受的"},{"start":310.453,"end":333.847,"text":"這沒有辦法接受的所以我希望這一塊部分要盡快來做處理我們也盡快提出來相關部分法制要盡快把它驅離下來我們沒有辦法接受這樣的狀況一再發生我們看一下其他國家印度它為了防止這樣的狀況它是全面禁止的對TikTok是全面禁止TikTok現在已經產生很多的效應很多人喜歡看TikTok裡面有產生很多的"},{"start":334.187,"end":353.412,"text":"它只要詐騙的也會出現甚至虐待動物也會出現甚至奇怪的很多東西都會出現在這個地方而TikTok只要它有商業的利益它就會進行那我們對這一塊甚至有很多設計它可以用大數據去取得你台灣人民的喜好你喜歡什麼東西你喜歡什麼樣的都可以取得大數據"},{"start":354.412,"end":371.453,"text":"那甚至於他可以穿透他的政策的宣導出去給你那我們對這個是完全沒有防禦機制所以其他的像印度已經全面封禁了其他國家政府禁止而憲政現在也嚴厲其他國家也要禁止台灣作為中共的第一線面對中共的這個"},{"start":373.154,"end":401.852,"text":"這個作戰的第一線不管是網路作戰、認知作戰第一線我們若連基本的防衛能力都沒有連保護能力都沒有我們其實很難對台灣人民交代也很難對世界民主同盟來交代人家怎麼看你台灣在第一線大家都已經關注到這個問題了你在第一線被攻擊得最厲害你竟然完全毫無防衛的機制我希望相關單位要加快這個速度啦那再來我們來看一下TikTok傳送到中國去了有單位能查嗎?沒有嘛對不對現在的機制裡面是沒有的嘛"},{"start":402.932,"end":411.712,"text":"主任有嗎 有機制可以查嗎他資料如果把我們的個資洩露到中國去 我們有資料可查嗎主任 要不要說明一下有嗎"},{"start":413.305,"end":442.665,"text":"目前這部分還是循同剛剛所說的那樣一個狀態假如說在我們納管的這樣一個說標的在做確定的這個過程可以去進行納管主委你剛剛說了嘛這資料是有可能會洩漏到那邊去的嘛但是我們現在有沒有機制可以防堵這事情發生沒有嘛沒有機制嘛那所以連人家歐洲愛爾蘭都已經有那個可以重罰他的我們連個機制都沒有我們連罰他的機制都沒有"},{"start":443.605,"end":459.183,"text":"所以我們落後非常的多啦我希望這一塊要加速包括如果它傳送到有沒有違反各自法的規定我認為是有啦但是這個法要修得要更清楚因為中國在對各自的保護是不完善的"},{"start":459.904,"end":478.197,"text":"但是我認為這已經嚴重違反了這條規定了但我認為可以再訂得更清楚啦所以我希望修法的動作要加快確保消費者保護權益幫我們各自的保護權益這塊動作要加快更不要講更不要講連查處能力我們事實上是沒有查處能力的所以"},{"start":481.089,"end":502.285,"text":"另外你看連很多研究都已經提出來T-talk在演算法裡面有親中以美的疑慮所有的T-talk裡面的很多的都會看得出來對中國的好感度是刻意的提升的對中國對台灣經濟的正面影響是刻意提升的對經濟的失敗論是提升的台灣的經濟失敗論是提升的對於政府親美可能引發兩岸戰爭這個是提升的"},{"start":506.568,"end":525.81,"text":"所以可以看得出來T-talk其實在執行某些的兩岸之間的政治作戰或政治的任務的這跟前面的推論都是一模一樣所以在這樣狀況下的時候我們對這樣的行為必須要更多防止跟防堵的行為書法部要不要說明一下後面出現了什麼樣的處理的方式"},{"start":529.935,"end":541.252,"text":"速發部要不要說明一下對於TikTok這些部分未來速發部在這一塊TikTok這些平台上面的有沒有更強而有力的一些監督監管的一些機制"},{"start":543.81,"end":568.059,"text":"各位有沒有報告因為這個部分目前如果如果根據以前的部分可能應該比較像是對於平台平台的監理這部分那我們目前只是就打詐的條例裡面的網路廣告我希望加快啦好不好書發部的成立其實要處理的有一部分就在處理現在的數位時代數位平台這個問題這是重要的一個工作啦如果大家這個時間互相還丟來丟去的話那這個業務是丟歸給誰好不好"},{"start":570.78,"end":586.514,"text":"現在數法部要加快這樣的一個工作的一個成立然後把相關該建立起來對數數位平台的這一塊的那個包前陣子大家常常講數位平台的做政治審查的部分甚至於很多的一些貼文還會被審查甚至於被"},{"start":588.015,"end":615.656,"text":"降流這些等等我認為這個都因為沒有落地了之後你沒有一個機制在的時候你就更難去約束他的行為我希望這塊訴發部要負起你們責任盡快的完成這相關的一些工作要讓相關這些平台有一定的壓力你不能來只想賺台灣人的錢卻不想要受到任何的約束甚至於傷害到台灣的國家利益這是沒有辦法接受的訴發部這塊要加油要趕快把它處理起來我們來看一下連包括"},{"start":616.677,"end":636.405,"text":"數位平台審查這個詐騙 寫入詐騙繳訊網警政署臉書有三萬八千則詐騙廣告到現在為止零開罰包括從去年到今年有一萬三千件零開罰書法部現在是零開罰嗎報告委員我們現在有一些案子是在調查中什麼時候會完成調查"},{"start":639.579,"end":657.15,"text":"我希望盡快啦好不好 這個如果連開罰都沒有所有的詐騙這麼多 3萬8千則的詐騙包括從去年到今年 1萬3千件的詐騙警政署抓都抓不完 然後大家房子抓都抓不完然後詐騙的平台如同共犯一樣這個詐騙賺詐騙的錢 然後平台賺詐騙人的這個錢"},{"start":661.232,"end":689.609,"text":"那這樣的行為如果連我們連對那平台都沒有辦法開罰的話那形同沒有工具嘛 形同沒有嚇阻力嘛那當然難怪平台業者根本懶得理你嘛你政府的公信力跟威權力沒有詐騙已經是人民最深惡痛絕的一件事情了如果書法部還這麼消極我希望盡快的開罰出來讓大家看到已經有三萬多件的這個 連檢舉進來都有一千多件一萬多件的應該要趕快有所作為 有所動作 好不好"},{"start":690.19,"end":692.177,"text":"謝謝 加油 蘇豪加油"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:35:52.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:35:57.099000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝召委，請李主任及數發部吳副處長。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-08T10:35:57.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:35:57.420000+08:00","text":"請李主任及吳副處長。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:35:57.420000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:00.943000+08:00","text":"主任好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:00.943000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:04.466000+08:00","text":"賴委員早安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:04.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:05.526000+08:00","text":"這個法案內容我支持啦！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:05.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:12.970000+08:00","text":"沒有特別意見，但我想要關心一下的反倒是TikTok一些用戶個資的問題。是。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:13.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:15.771000+08:00","text":"全世界各國大家也高度在重視這個問題啦！","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:17.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:21.654000+08:00","text":"我先請教主任，就你的了解，中共能不能取得TikTok的個資？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:23.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:35.354000+08:00","text":"因為畢竟是他們國家的非公務機關，理論上，我覺得應該他們對於它要求提出資料，依照他們國家的法制應該是可以達到的。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:35.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:37.136000+08:00","text":"可以達到，它也很難拒絕啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:37.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:40.658000+08:00","text":"因為在專制共產的國家，它很難拒絕……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:40.658000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:41.658000+08:00","text":"他們有一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:40.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:44.220000+08:00","text":"光馬雲都無法抵抗了，TikTok應該很難抵抗。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:44.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:47.482000+08:00","text":"他們有一個數據安全法是國家可以要求他們所有這些……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:47.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:36:49.603000+08:00","text":"所以他們的數據安全法是直接可以要求的？對。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:36:51.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:37:06.621000+08:00","text":"所以TikTok是可以直接取得相關這些個資的，在這樣的狀況下，大家就會高度的擔憂了，包括世界各國，也包括臺灣自己也會關心我們的個資會不會因為在TikTok這邊而被中共所取得。是。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:37:08.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:37:08.903000+08:00","text":"主任擔不擔心這樣狀況的發生？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:37:10.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:37:14.922000+08:00","text":"是，當然這個也是一樣，應該是要被關注的個資保護議題。","quality":0.609},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:37:16.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:37:21.466000+08:00","text":"我們在未來有沒有辦法來強化這一塊的維護安全工作？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:37:21.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:37:24.008000+08:00","text":"在資訊安全及個資安全的部分。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:37:25.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:37:39.618000+08:00","text":"會，剛剛因為在前面有委員在垂詢其他境外這些業者，當然就是有關管轄權的部分，現階段因為現行的個資法以及整個發展過程就是一個內國法嘛！","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:37:41.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:37:53.607000+08:00","text":"像這種完全不落地的，要來形成管轄權，我剛剛也有說明，在第二階段個資法的大修裡面會處理這個議題，對於這種完全不落地的……","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:37:54.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:37:56.689000+08:00","text":"所以主任會要求這部分將來必須要落地嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:37:57.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:37:59.230000+08:00","text":"我覺得現在針對詐防已經有詐防條例了……","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:00.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:06.093000+08:00","text":"如果不落地的話，詐騙的一堆或什麼的，你對他們幾乎完全是沒有約束力嘛！是。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:06.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:13.356000+08:00","text":"美國都還可以透過聽證會要求他們來談，臺灣要求TikTok……我不知道，主任，如果現在要求TikTok，是要邀誰來？","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:14.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:20.058000+08:00","text":"現行按照的是分管機制，就要再請這類的行業……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:20.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:30.962000+08:00","text":"我問你，就您的了解，待會再問數發部，如果現在邀請TikTok的人，認為他們有相關安全的疑慮，需要他們來臺灣跟政府做說明，邀請誰來？","quality":0.707},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:30.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:32.743000+08:00","text":"他們來不來？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:33.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:36.084000+08:00","text":"這部分可能等一下要請數發部說明。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:36.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:37.885000+08:00","text":"以主任的了解，有沒有？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:37.885000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:39.765000+08:00","text":"邀誰來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:39.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:40.806000+08:00","text":"現在有沒有被邀？還是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:41.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:42.668000+08:00","text":"如果要邀的話，可以邀誰來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:42.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:46.211000+08:00","text":"他們願不願意來？有嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:46.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:49.735000+08:00","text":"是希望他們進來落地投資，還是說……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:49.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:55.361000+08:00","text":"進來說明就好了，假如我們有任何的聽證或是公聽會要他們來說明的時候。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:56.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:58.504000+08:00","text":"這部分我看是不是等一下請數發部……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:58.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:38:59.625000+08:00","text":"數發部要不要說明一下？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:38:59.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:01.067000+08:00","text":"有這樣的人可以說明嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳副處長宜倫","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:04.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:14.544000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員垂詢，我補充報告，目前在打詐條例的部分，我們是針對國際版TikTok的部分，現在我們還在審查中，但他們在臺灣有聯絡人，因此在打詐的事務上……","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:14.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:15.505000+08:00","text":"臺灣的聯絡人是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:15.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:15.545000+08:00","text":"什麼樣的層級？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳副處長宜倫","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:15.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:15.705000+08:00","text":"他們有一個臺灣的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:15.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:16.245000+08:00","text":"連聯絡人是誰都還不是那麼清楚？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳簡任視察妍靜","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:16.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:31.284000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，它就是會有一位設在臺灣這邊負責去做業務接洽的部分，做為聯絡窗口……","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:31.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:31.684000+08:00","text":"業務接洽，所以他的職稱是？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:31.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:32.986000+08:00","text":"這個就是最大的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:33.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:34.087000+08:00","text":"我問你，他不來的話，我們有辦法約束他嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳副處長宜倫","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:43.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:39:52.158000+08:00","text":"是，報告委員，現在其實我們在審核它的資格當中，就是針對國際版TikTok有沒有要設法律代表部分，我們現在也在……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:39:53.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:40:42.762000+08:00","text":"這個就是我提到的問題，我請主任、數發部都要思考，在美國的聽證會至少它的執行長還要來做說明，如果來到了臺灣，賺臺灣人的錢，然後你連請誰來都還不清楚，他一個代表可能只是某某先生而已，他能不能代表TikTok也沒有人知道，也不能對他有任何約束行為，甚至於如果我們認為要約束它也沒有，在這樣的狀況下，TikTok如入無人之境，形同沒有管轄一樣，剛剛主任又講到，TikTok所有資訊是中共政府可以掌握得到的，那到底對臺灣的權益保障在哪裡？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:40:42.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:40:59.234000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分請個資會籌備處、數發部要加快相關的動作，否則它可以賺臺灣人的利益，進入臺灣的市場，卻完全不用負擔任何責任跟義務，這是沒有辦法接受的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:41:00.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:41:08.619000+08:00","text":"所以我希望這塊要儘快來做處理，法制要儘快確立下來，我沒有辦法接受這樣的狀況一再發生。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:41:09.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:42:12.461000+08:00","text":"我們看一下其他國家，印度為了防止這樣的狀況，全面禁止TikTok，TikTok現在已經產生很多的效應，很多人喜歡看TikTok，詐騙也會出現，虐待動物也會出現，很多奇怪的東西都會出現，而TikTok只要有商業利益，它就會進行，甚至它可以用大數據去取得你臺灣人民的喜好，甚至於它可以穿透它的政策宣導給你，我們對這個完全沒有防禦機制，所以像印度已經全面封禁了，其他國家也要禁止，臺灣作為面對中共作戰的第一線，不管是網路作戰或認知作戰，我們若連基本的防衛能力都沒有，連保護能力都沒有，我們其實很難對臺灣人民交代，也很難對世界民主同盟來交代。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:42:12.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:42:22.047000+08:00","text":"人家會怎麼看你臺灣在第一線，大家都已經關注到這個問題了，你在第一線被攻擊得最厲害，竟然完全毫無防衛的機制，我希望相關單位要加快速度。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:42:23.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:42:27.090000+08:00","text":"再來，我們來看一下TikTok傳送到中國去的，有單位能查嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:42:28.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:42:29.772000+08:00","text":"現在的機制裡面是沒有的，對不對？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:42:30.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:42:32.756000+08:00","text":"主任，有機制可以查嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:42:33.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:42:37.928000+08:00","text":"它如果把我們的個資洩漏到中國去，我們有資料可查嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:42:37.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:42:38.650000+08:00","text":"主任要不要說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:42:41.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:42:55.474000+08:00","text":"目前這部分還是如同剛剛所說的那樣一個狀態，假如在我們納管的這樣一個標的在做確定的過程，可以去進行納管……","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:42:55.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:43:01.298000+08:00","text":"主任，你剛剛說了嘛，這資料是有可能會洩漏到那邊去的，但是我們現在有沒有機制可以防堵這事情發生？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:43:01.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:43:14.469000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛，所以連歐洲、愛爾蘭都已經可以重罰它了，我們連個機制都沒有，我們連罰它的機制都沒有，所以我們落後非常多，我希望這一塊要加速。是。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:43:16.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:43:21.757000+08:00","text":"如果它傳送到了有沒有違反個資法的規定，我認為是有，但是這個法要修得更清楚。是。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:43:23.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:43:36.650000+08:00","text":"因為中國對個資的保護是不完善的，但是我認為這已經嚴重違反了這條規定了，但我認為可以再訂得更清楚，所以我希望修法的動作要加快，以確保消費者權益和個資。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2025-05-08T10:43:36.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:43:40.073000+08:00","text":"好，我們把它納進來。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:43:40.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:43:45.257000+08:00","text":"更不要講查處能力，我們事實上是沒有查處能力的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:43:50.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:44:30.767000+08:00","text":"很多研究都已經提出來，TikTok在演算法裡面有親中疑美的疑慮，TikTok的內容很多都看得出來，對中國的好感度是刻意提升的，對中國對臺灣經濟的正面影響是刻意提升的，對臺灣經濟的失敗論是提升的，對於政府親美可能引發兩岸戰爭是提升的，所以可以看得出來，TikTok其實是在執行某些兩岸之間的認知作戰或政治任務，這跟前面的推論都一模一樣，在這樣的狀況下，我們對這樣的行為必須要更多的防止跟防堵，好不好？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:44:31.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:44:33.790000+08:00","text":"後續有沒有什麼樣的處理的方式？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:44:38.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:44:38.837000+08:00","text":"數發部要不要說明一下？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:44:41.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:44:49.232000+08:00","text":"未來數發部對TikTok這些平台有沒有更強而有力的監督、監管機制？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"吳副處長宜倫","start":"2025-05-08T10:44:52.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:45:05.255000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這部分根據以前應該比較像是對於平台的監理這部分，我們目前只是就打詐條例裡面的網路廣告……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:45:05.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:45:06.976000+08:00","text":"我希望加快啦，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:45:07.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:45:15.939000+08:00","text":"數發部的成立，其實有一部分就是要處理數位平台這個問題，這是一個重要的工作，如果現在大家還互相推來推去的話，那這個業務要歸給誰？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:45:18.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:46:00.934000+08:00","text":"現在數發部一定要加快這個工作，然後把數位平台這一塊相關機制建立起來，包括前陣子大家常在講的對數位平台做政治審查，貼文會被審查甚至於被降流等等，我認為落地之後，如果沒有一個機制在，你就更難去約束它的行為，我希望數發部要負起你們責任，儘快的完成相關的工作，讓這些平台有一定的壓力，不能來只想賺臺灣人的錢，卻不想要受到任何的約束，甚至於傷害到臺灣的國家利益，這是沒有辦法接受的，數發部這一塊要加油，要趕快處理好。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:46:01.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:46:19.903000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，包括數位平台審查用戶言論助長詐騙，警政署臉書有三萬八千則詐騙廣告，到現在為止零開罰，包括從去年到今年有一萬三千件零開罰，數發部，現在是零開罰嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳副處長宜倫","start":"2025-05-08T10:46:19.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:46:22.464000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們現在有一些案子在調查中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:46:23.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:46:24.385000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會完成調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳副處長宜倫","start":"2025-05-08T10:46:24.385000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:46:27.579000+08:00","text":"應該這個月……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:46:27.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:46:29.020000+08:00","text":"我希望儘快，好不好？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:46:29.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:46:56.937000+08:00","text":"如果連開罰都沒有，詐騙這麼多，三萬八千則的詐騙廣告，包括從去年到今年一萬三千件的詐騙，警政署抓都抓不完，然後大家防不勝防，然後平台如同共犯一樣，詐騙賺詐騙的錢，然後平台賺詐騙人的錢，如果我們連對平台都沒有辦法開罰的話，那就形同沒有工具、沒有嚇阻力嘛！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:46:57.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:47:01.219000+08:00","text":"難怪平台業者根本懶得理你，你政府的公信力跟公權力都沒有。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:47:02.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T10:47:17.589000+08:00","text":"詐騙已經是人民最深惡痛絕的一件事情了，如果數發部還這麼消極，我希望儘快開罰，讓大家看到，已經有三萬多件，連檢舉都有一萬多件了，應該要趕快有所作為、有所動作，好不好？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"吳副處長宜倫","start":"2025-05-08T10:47:18.089000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:47:20.374714+08:00","text":"好，是，謝謝委員指導。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-05-08T10:47:20.674714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:47:22.960429+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，數發部加油！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-08T10:47:23.260429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:47:25.260429+08:00","text":"謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-08T10:47:25.560429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T10:47:28.703286+08:00","text":"下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":523,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時35分）好，謝謝召委，請李主任及數發部吳副處長。"],["主席：請李主任及吳副處長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主任好。"],["李主任世德：賴委員早安。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個法案內容我支持啦！沒有特別意見，但我想要關心一下的反倒是TikTok一些用戶個資的問題。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：全世界各國大家也高度在重視這個問題啦！我先請教主任，就你的了解，中共能不能取得TikTok的個資？"],["李主任世德：因為畢竟是他們國家的非公務機關，理論上，我覺得應該他們對於它要求提出資料，依照他們國家的法制應該是可以達到的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：可以達到，它也很難拒絕啦！因為在專制共產的國家，它很難拒絕……"],["李主任世德：他們有一個……"],["賴委員瑞隆：光馬雲都無法抵抗了，TikTok應該很難抵抗。"],["李主任世德：他們有一個數據安全法是國家可以要求他們所有這些……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以他們的數據安全法是直接可以要求的？"],["李主任世德：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以TikTok是可以直接取得相關這些個資的，在這樣的狀況下，大家就會高度的擔憂了，包括世界各國，也包括臺灣自己也會關心我們的個資會不會因為在TikTok這邊而被中共所取得。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主任擔不擔心這樣狀況的發生？"],["李主任世德：是，當然這個也是一樣，應該是要被關注的個資保護議題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們在未來有沒有辦法來強化這一塊的維護安全工作？在資訊安全及個資安全的部分。"],["李主任世德：會，剛剛因為在前面有委員在垂詢其他境外這些業者，當然就是有關管轄權的部分，現階段因為現行的個資法以及整個發展過程就是一個內國法嘛！像這種完全不落地的，要來形成管轄權，我剛剛也有說明，在第二階段個資法的大修裡面會處理這個議題，對於這種完全不落地的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以主任會要求這部分將來必須要落地嗎？"],["李主任世德：我覺得現在針對詐防已經有詐防條例了……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果不落地的話，詐騙的一堆或什麼的，你對他們幾乎完全是沒有約束力嘛！"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：美國都還可以透過聽證會要求他們來談，臺灣要求TikTok……我不知道，主任，如果現在要求TikTok，是要邀誰來？"],["李主任世德：現行按照的是分管機制，就要再請這類的行業……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問你，就您的了解，待會再問數發部，如果現在邀請TikTok的人，認為他們有相關安全的疑慮，需要他們來臺灣跟政府做說明，邀請誰來？他們來不來？"],["李主任世德：這部分可能等一下要請數發部說明。"],["賴委員瑞隆：以主任的了解，有沒有？邀誰來？"],["李主任世德：現在有沒有被邀？還是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果要邀的話，可以邀誰來？他們願不願意來？有嗎？"],["李主任世德：是希望他們進來落地投資，還是說……"],["賴委員瑞隆：進來說明就好了，假如我們有任何的聽證或是公聽會要他們來說明的時候。"],["李主任世德：這部分我看是不是等一下請數發部……"],["賴委員瑞隆：數發部要不要說明一下？有這樣的人可以說明嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：是，謝謝委員垂詢，我補充報告，目前在打詐條例的部分，我們是針對國際版TikTok的部分，現在我們還在審查中，但他們在臺灣有聯絡人，因此在打詐的事務上……"],["賴委員瑞隆：臺灣的聯絡人是誰？什麼樣的層級？"],["吳副處長宜倫：他們有一個臺灣的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：連聯絡人是誰都還不是那麼清楚？"],["陳簡任視察妍靜：向委員報告，它就是會有一位設在臺灣這邊負責去做業務接洽的部分，做為聯絡窗口……"],["賴委員瑞隆：業務接洽，所以他的職稱是？這個就是最大的問題。我問你，他不來的話，我們有辦法約束他嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：是，報告委員，現在其實我們在審核它的資格當中，就是針對國際版TikTok有沒有要設法律代表部分，我們現在也在……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個就是我提到的問題，我請主任、數發部都要思考，在美國的聽證會至少它的執行長還要來做說明，如果來到了臺灣，賺臺灣人的錢，然後你連請誰來都還不清楚，他一個代表可能只是某某先生而已，他能不能代表TikTok也沒有人知道，也不能對他有任何約束行為，甚至於如果我們認為要約束它也沒有，在這樣的狀況下，TikTok如入無人之境，形同沒有管轄一樣，剛剛主任又講到，TikTok所有資訊是中共政府可以掌握得到的，那到底對臺灣的權益保障在哪裡？所以這個部分請個資會籌備處、數發部要加快相關的動作，否則它可以賺臺灣人的利益，進入臺灣的市場，卻完全不用負擔任何責任跟義務，這是沒有辦法接受的。所以我希望這塊要儘快來做處理，法制要儘快確立下來，我沒有辦法接受這樣的狀況一再發生。","我們看一下其他國家，印度為了防止這樣的狀況，全面禁止TikTok，TikTok現在已經產生很多的效應，很多人喜歡看TikTok，詐騙也會出現，虐待動物也會出現，很多奇怪的東西都會出現，而TikTok只要有商業利益，它就會進行，甚至它可以用大數據去取得你臺灣人民的喜好，甚至於它可以穿透它的政策宣導給你，我們對這個完全沒有防禦機制，所以像印度已經全面封禁了，其他國家也要禁止，臺灣作為面對中共作戰的第一線，不管是網路作戰或認知作戰，我們若連基本的防衛能力都沒有，連保護能力都沒有，我們其實很難對臺灣人民交代，也很難對世界民主同盟來交代。人家會怎麼看你臺灣在第一線，大家都已經關注到這個問題了，你在第一線被攻擊得最厲害，竟然完全毫無防衛的機制，我希望相關單位要加快速度。","再來，我們來看一下TikTok傳送到中國去的，有單位能查嗎？現在的機制裡面是沒有的，對不對？主任，有機制可以查嗎？它如果把我們的個資洩漏到中國去，我們有資料可查嗎？主任要不要說明一下？"],["李主任世德：目前這部分還是如同剛剛所說的那樣一個狀態，假如在我們納管的這樣一個標的在做確定的過程，可以去進行納管……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主任，你剛剛說了嘛，這資料是有可能會洩漏到那邊去的，但是我們現在有沒有機制可以防堵這事情發生？沒有嘛，所以連歐洲、愛爾蘭都已經可以重罰它了，我們連個機制都沒有，我們連罰它的機制都沒有，所以我們落後非常多，我希望這一塊要加速。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果它傳送到了有沒有違反個資法的規定，我認為是有，但是這個法要修得更清楚。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為中國對個資的保護是不完善的，但是我認為這已經嚴重違反了這條規定了，但我認為可以再訂得更清楚，所以我希望修法的動作要加快，以確保消費者權益和個資。"],["李主任世德：好，我們把它納進來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：更不要講查處能力，我們事實上是沒有查處能力的。很多研究都已經提出來，TikTok在演算法裡面有親中疑美的疑慮，TikTok的內容很多都看得出來，對中國的好感度是刻意提升的，對中國對臺灣經濟的正面影響是刻意提升的，對臺灣經濟的失敗論是提升的，對於政府親美可能引發兩岸戰爭是提升的，所以可以看得出來，TikTok其實是在執行某些兩岸之間的認知作戰或政治任務，這跟前面的推論都一模一樣，在這樣的狀況下，我們對這樣的行為必須要更多的防止跟防堵，好不好？後續有沒有什麼樣的處理的方式？數發部要不要說明一下？未來數發部對TikTok這些平台有沒有更強而有力的監督、監管機制？"],["吳副處長宜倫：跟委員報告，這部分根據以前應該比較像是對於平台的監理這部分，我們目前只是就打詐條例裡面的網路廣告……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望加快啦，好不好？數發部的成立，其實有一部分就是要處理數位平台這個問題，這是一個重要的工作，如果現在大家還互相推來推去的話，那這個業務要歸給誰？現在數發部一定要加快這個工作，然後把數位平台這一塊相關機制建立起來，包括前陣子大家常在講的對數位平台做政治審查，貼文會被審查甚至於被降流等等，我認為落地之後，如果沒有一個機制在，你就更難去約束它的行為，我希望數發部要負起你們責任，儘快的完成相關的工作，讓這些平台有一定的壓力，不能來只想賺臺灣人的錢，卻不想要受到任何的約束，甚至於傷害到臺灣的國家利益，這是沒有辦法接受的，數發部這一塊要加油，要趕快處理好。","我們來看一下，包括數位平台審查用戶言論助長詐騙，警政署臉書有三萬八千則詐騙廣告，到現在為止零開罰，包括從去年到今年有一萬三千件零開罰，數發部，現在是零開罰嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：報告委員，我們現在有一些案子在調查中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：什麼時候會完成調查？"],["吳副處長宜倫：應該這個月……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望儘快，好不好？如果連開罰都沒有，詐騙這麼多，三萬八千則的詐騙廣告，包括從去年到今年一萬三千件的詐騙，警政署抓都抓不完，然後大家防不勝防，然後平台如同共犯一樣，詐騙賺詐騙的錢，然後平台賺詐騙人的錢，如果我們連對平台都沒有辦法開罰的話，那就形同沒有工具、沒有嚇阻力嘛！難怪平台業者根本懶得理你，你政府的公信力跟公權力都沒有。詐騙已經是人民最深惡痛絕的一件事情了，如果數發部還這麼消極，我希望儘快開罰，讓大家看到，已經有三萬多件，連檢舉都有一萬多件了，應該要趕快有所作為、有所動作，好不好？"],["吳副處長宜倫：好，是，謝謝委員指導。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝，數發部加油！"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-12","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","謝衣鳯","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員王美惠等18\n人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「個人資料保\n護法部分條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員李坤城等16人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案（本日僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144701_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}