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能允許的情況之下中間那個競合對國人的選擇上面那有提供不一樣的選擇那市場上面齁不一樣的選擇是消費者的選擇啊這跟國家法規範的標準是兩回事啊都要混為一談啊"},{"start":287.427,"end":310.561,"text":"您今天作為專家作為政務官那我就希望代表政府的立場告訴全台灣人民我們客觀可接受專家的標準到底是什麼嗎現在我就想不懂了如果我們政府的標準是認為0.01ppm是客觀可接受的風險"},{"start":312.11,"end":318.912,"text":"那為什麼國內的豬肉禁止使用萊克多巴胺我只要不要超過0.01ppm就好啦不是這樣嗎"},{"start":321.477,"end":341.871,"text":"就這個議題上面可能他決定的層次會超越在食藥署在訂定當時安全的一個標準的一個考量之下講的具體一點所謂超越食藥署的標準是如何的超越法我想他是整個行政團隊從是哪個行政團隊很早以來在租目前的這個行政團隊還是也用這個標準嗎"},{"start":344.688,"end":372.006,"text":"我想在整體上在針對美豬的訂定的時候已經訂完標準我們在所以我現在今天在委員會裡面我們要談科學就來談科學嘛我現在搞不懂啊外國的豬肉可以台灣的豬肉不可以外國的豬肉0.01以下的就是安全台灣0.01以下的還是不安全"},{"start":373.407,"end":399.432,"text":"理由到底是什麼台灣的是沒有使用是我知道嘛沒有使用跟法規上面不能使用是兩回事嘛剛剛我已經把這個問題的層次剖析得很清楚了嘛消費者的選擇是消費者的選擇啊消費者他當然有選擇的自由啊我們在資訊的提供上有沒有給消費者選擇的自由那是另外一個層次的事情啊"},{"start":400.578,"end":425.349,"text":"我現在的問題是規範上面的標準為什麼有這樣的差別對待這邊跟委員做進度報告因為這一點是當初在農業部定下所謂國內養豬不用萊克多巴胺是提到的是說希望能夠確保台灣豬肉競爭力所以這部分其實是跨部會在提到這件事情你的意思是什麼沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力是嗎"},{"start":428.818,"end":448.814,"text":"否則你剛講那句話根本不成立啊沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力是這樣嗎這個我不是很確定每一個消費者的想要的奇怪這個不是你剛講的嗎還是你剛的意思是說沒有使用萊克多巴胺會降低競爭力這個是農業部提出來的所以不關衛福部的事情嗎"},{"start":449.993,"end":467.761,"text":"這個部分我們是在健康的標準上面的維護所以我今天就跟你討論健康的標準你繞來繞去不敢回答嘛從衛福部的觀點來講0.01ppm以下就是安全的嘛是嗎是吧我們在邊境查查的時候一直用這樣的標準是"},{"start":468.683,"end":495.305,"text":"那你在邊境查查為什麼用這個標準因為這個標準以下是安全的嘛 對嗎那相對我們在國內的後市場端等等的國內的查查也一樣的用同樣的標準你的意思是說在國內也是用一樣的標準對 我們都沒有查到目前是會檢出的所以如果在國內裡面查到0.001ppm的話在法規上面是允許的嗎我講的是本國的豬肉在法規上面是允許的嗎"},{"start":497.35,"end":525.984,"text":"0.001ppm就像現在澳洲豬腳查到的量是一樣的目前是不行目前是不行嘛對嘛所以我就在問你嘛差別對待的理由在哪裡嘛這邊跟委員特別說明了當初其實應該是在農業部訂下這樣子特別提到了這樣一段話他是提到說為確保台灣豬肉競爭力台灣豬絕對不使用瘦肉精對嘛所以我就問你嘛確保台灣豬肉競爭力是什麼意思嘛"},{"start":527.15,"end":547.473,"text":"奇怪打高空講一些空話講一些一般人民聽得懂的好不好什麼叫提升台灣豬肉有競爭力就代表是說不用萊克多巴胺比較有競爭力嘛是不是這樣是嗎還是農業部這句話什麼意思作為衛福部的官員其實你也不是很清楚"},{"start":549.04,"end":568.45,"text":"這個部分的確我們尊重跨部會農業部的說法對啊 所以如果連你都看不懂的話一般的消費者怎麼看得懂連我們衛福部的官員都看不懂啊一般的消費者怎麼會看得懂啊還是我們現在在政府當官的"},{"start":570.171,"end":583.716,"text":"專門講抽象的打太極講虛無縹緲的搞到農業部那句話是什麼意思連衛福部的官員都聽不懂那一般的人看得懂嗎一般的人看得懂嗎我打開天窗說亮話台灣豬絕不使用瘦肉精提升國產豬肉競爭力為什麼因為消費者不希望有嘛"},{"start":597.981,"end":600.502,"text":"旅遊就是這樣嘛這有什麼好閃躲的本來就是這個樣子嘛那為什麼一般的消費者不喜歡有來濟的大家會擔心嘛將心比心嘛站在一般人的觀點來思考這個問題嘛這個事情有這麼複雜嗎為了要幫一個奇怪的政策辯護繞來繞去繞來繞去"},{"start":626.122,"end":640.385,"text":"為什麼要做這樣的宣示就是希望台灣的消費者安心 事情就這麼簡單嘛部長我說的對不對從民眾的立場來講 應該是這樣會比國內比較有競爭力你覺得消費者會關心台灣的豬肉有沒有競爭力喔消費者關心的是台灣的豬肉好不好吃 安不安全"},{"start":652.563,"end":666.063,"text":"是不是他們會比較傾向於買這種對嘛那你覺得消費者應該要有資的權利嗎到底有還沒有消費者有沒有權利知道當然要有資的權利當然要有資的權利嘛所以如果我驗出的話應不應該要標示"},{"start":668.442,"end":695.063,"text":"我們標示原產地就知道...你這樣子...部長你這樣回答問題很危險你標的原產地就知道原料的原產地不是啦,這樣風險非常的高啦因為有的澳洲的有用,有的沒有用嘛那消費者在意的是什麼消費者在意的是說到底有用沒有用嘛剛剛你也承認啊,說消費者應該有吃的權利啊所以我才問你啊,是不是應該要標示啊"},{"start":696.223,"end":721.376,"text":"阿你覺得應不應該標示現在的國內國外的牛豬都是一體試用就是原料原產地的標誌這樣子這個事情未來會不會改變這個事情未來會不會改變現在大家擔心的是第二個層次的事情了啦原產地的標誌會不會堅持我們目前就是啊我知道目前是這樣我的意思是會不會繼續堅持下去啊譬如說美國認為這個是非關稅"},{"start":727.114,"end":736.824,"text":"那要求台灣改衛福部的立場會不會鬆動衛福部的立場就是站在維護人民的健康跟食安所以會不會鬆動"},{"start":740.21,"end":758.578,"text":"當然還是人民的利益跟國家的發展這個是我們考量的你講的很有藝術啦我拜託你講一些庶民聽得懂的話啦美國要求原產地標示拿掉台灣政府立場會不會鬆動會還是不會"},{"start":761.328,"end":786.372,"text":"你有比較有氣魄的說絕對不會鬆動我跟台灣人民保證衛福部的立場很堅定我們為了要捍衛台灣消費者的權益這件事情的立場我們絕對不鬆動你這樣說就好了嘛衛福部一定保證我們一定要堅持食安至上那至於說那個所以原產地標示你會不會堅持我們就按照這個根據國際的標準的一個"},{"start":790.513,"end":813.332,"text":"的規定我們按規定來處理啊所以現在的規定是什麼現在的規定是什麼現在的規定就是原料原產地要標示嘛啊這個規定會不會變動會不會隨著美方的壓力而變動其實大家在意的就是這個問題嘛你講的支支吾吾的你直接回答問題有這麼難嗎還是上面有交代這個事情不可以承諾"},{"start":815.017,"end":842.227,"text":"是有交代是嗎?沒有啦,你如果有交代我就算了啦因為我為難你沒有意思嘛這沒有交代,我們只是按照大家的...所以如果沒有交代,部長就不用擔心你比較氣派在這邊就承諾,我承諾原產地的標示我們現在的標準絕對不會鬆動,好不好因為政府是一體的啦,尊重各個...所以是會有哪個部會有意見?"},{"start":843.925,"end":870.919,"text":"那這個我也不清楚我們就是一起來討論站在人民第一國家至上的立場我相信含口號都非常會部長真的辛苦真的要擔任這個部長真的很辛苦要想出各式各樣抽象的詞來迴避問題但是我不為難你我只表達一個立場過去"},{"start":874.229,"end":882.132,"text":"我們為了國際經貿情勢台灣人讓不過台灣人讓不過為什麼我說是台灣人讓不過從我剛質詢的第一個問題就清楚呈現出來我們讓不過結果換到什麼這個是現在大家在問的問題這是現在大家在問的問題"},{"start":895.647,"end":919.914,"text":"現在我們要不要退第二步這個是現在大家關心的問題從我得到民間社會絕大多數的反應認為原產定的標示退無可退不能再退了我希望這些人民的聲音部長要放在心裡面好不好可以嗎你沒有發現我已經退一步沒有讓你承諾了"},{"start":924.693,"end":931.779,"text":"我簡單的要你把這句話放在心裡面,這樣沒有很困難吧?黃委員的話,我永遠都放在心裡好啦好啦,謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:22.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:14:22.824000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，麻煩請部長和長照司司長。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:22.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:14:23.824000+08:00","text":"部長、祝司長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:23.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:14:24.824000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:24.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:14:25.824000+08:00","text":"本席還沒有開始問，時間就開始跑了。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:25.824000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:14:26.824000+08:00","text":"真的啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:23.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:14:23.484000+08:00","text":"本席還在等，可是時間就開始跑了！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:23.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:14:23.925000+08:00","text":"沒有關係啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:24.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:14:24.565000+08:00","text":"只是善意提醒而已！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:24.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:14:25.466000+08:00","text":"在開始今天質詢的主題之前，本席先請教一下祝司長。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:14:53.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:00.066000+08:00","text":"司長，現在休息時間還有要同仁深蹲嗎？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"祝司長健芳","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:00.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:05.331000+08:00","text":"沒有，那個事件發生之後就先停止了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:05.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:06.152000+08:00","text":"先停止？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:06.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:07.113000+08:00","text":"以後會繼續嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"祝司長健芳","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:10.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:13.207000+08:00","text":"現在同仁都是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:14.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:16.089000+08:00","text":"都是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"祝司長健芳","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:16.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:18.692000+08:00","text":"有一些是放音樂之後，他們就會自己站起來。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:18.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:18.932000+08:00","text":"沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:19.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:21.674000+08:00","text":"同仁如果是自願做的話，沒有人會禁止嘛！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:22.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:33.925000+08:00","text":"像本席晚上如果要去健身房深蹲，那也是我的選擇，但這是自己要做深蹲，和上面長官用逼迫的方式不同。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:34.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:39.536000+08:00","text":"可能從你的角度來說，這樣說太強烈了，你用鼓勵……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"祝司長健芳","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:39.536000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:40.536000+08:00","text":"我們真的是鼓勵。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:39.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:40.156000+08:00","text":"對，沒有關係啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:41.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:42.518000+08:00","text":"各方有各方的說法嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:43.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:49.845000+08:00","text":"現在本席要確定一件事情，你還有繼續鼓勵同仁做深蹲嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"祝司長健芳","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:49.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:52.247000+08:00","text":"基本上已經沒有了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:52.247000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:53.247000+08:00","text":"沒有了？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:52.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:15:55.269000+08:00","text":"你會不會再要求同仁比伏地挺身？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"祝司長健芳","start":"2025-05-08T14:15:56.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:00.454000+08:00","text":"那個真的是……誤會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"祝司長健芳","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:00.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:01.454000+08:00","text":"對，沒有這樣的事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:00.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:01.134000+08:00","text":"好，你不會這樣做嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"祝司長健芳","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:02.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:03.497000+08:00","text":"本來就沒有這樣做。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:04.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:05.782000+08:00","text":"未來也不會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"祝司長健芳","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:05.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:06.163000+08:00","text":"當然不會，健康是自己的。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:06.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:07.225000+08:00","text":"未來也不會啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:07.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:07.726000+08:00","text":"本席只是要這個承諾啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:12.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:17.216000+08:00","text":"衛福部的調查報告出來之後，各界有很多指教，本席相信部長有看到啦！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:17.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:19.057000+08:00","text":"相信司長也有看到。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:20.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:27.405000+08:00","text":"本席今天之所以問這個問題，不是要揭以前的瘡疤，是要確保這件事情不會再發生。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:27.405000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:28.405000+08:00","text":"沒有問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:28.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:30.147000+08:00","text":"部長可以承諾嗎？可以。好。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:31.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:43.954000+08:00","text":"進入今天的主題，有關豬肉含有萊克多巴胺，很多委員都很關心，今天有通過一項臨時提案，本席也看到了。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:16:45.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:16:58.069000+08:00","text":"從所謂的客觀可接受的健康風險管理來說，到底含有多少萊克多巴胺的劑量是客觀可接受，對人體不會造成傷害？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:01.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:17:03.958000+08:00","text":"這部分由我來向委員說明。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:07.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:17:14.887000+08:00","text":"國內針對牛和豬，牛肉和其他可食部分是0.01ppm，豬肉和其他可食部分是0.01ppm。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:15.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:17:17.970000+08:00","text":"所以這是客觀可接受的健康風險嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:18.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:17:21.493000+08:00","text":"很多毒理專家、食安專家以及……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:23.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:17:26.377000+08:00","text":"所以這些專家所建立的標準，衛福部是接受的？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:27.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:17:36.920000+08:00","text":"當初經過討論，後來是有通過這樣的標準，食藥署要按照這樣的基準管理。對。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:37.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:17:48.171000+08:00","text":"所以請你針對問題回答，0.01ppm是衛福部代表政府的立場，訂定的客觀可接受的風險嘛！是嗎？是的。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:49.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:17:53.674000+08:00","text":"所以在這個劑量之下，對人體健康不會有傷害嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:53.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:17:56.356000+08:00","text":"沒有證據特別提到它的傷害性。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:17:56.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:02.099000+08:00","text":"是，目前國內養豬可以使用萊克多巴胺嗎？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:02.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:02.959000+08:00","text":"目前國內是沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:03.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:05.601000+08:00","text":"為什麼國內禁止使用？這對……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:07.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:14.826000+08:00","text":"剛剛你不是說0.01ppm是客觀的標準、是科學的標準、是專家討論以後的標準？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:15.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:27.860000+08:00","text":"那本席就不懂了，在臺灣，百分之百禁用萊克多巴胺的理由是什麼？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:27.860000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:28.860000+08:00","text":"就我個人的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:27.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:32.443000+08:00","text":"是因為臺灣的豬肉一旦含有萊克多巴胺，不管劑量有多少，都對健康有風險嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:33.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:34.723000+08:00","text":"我想應該不是這樣子的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:34.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:36.584000+08:00","text":"那是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:36.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:39.024000+08:00","text":"那是在當初的背景之下，希望對……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:39.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:39.584000+08:00","text":"當初是什麼背景？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:40.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:50.986000+08:00","text":"因為國內的豬肉大概占90%，相對於進口的量，在有可能允許的情況之下，經過競合之後，提供國人不一樣的選擇，這大概是當初的……","quality":0.673},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:18:51.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:18:55.107000+08:00","text":"市場上所謂的不一樣選擇，這都是消費者的選擇，和國家法令規範的標準是兩回事，不要混為一談。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:03.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:16.755000+08:00","text":"您今天做為專家、政務官，本席希望你能代表政府的立場告訴全臺灣的人民，客觀可接受的專家標準到底是什麼？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:16.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:30.979000+08:00","text":"現在本席不懂的是，如果政府的標準是認為0.01ppm是客觀可接受的風險，為什麼國內的豬肉禁止使用萊克多巴胺？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:31.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:33.949000+08:00","text":"因為只要不超過0.01ppm就好啦！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:34.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:34.912000+08:00","text":"不是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:38.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:45.482000+08:00","text":"這個議題思考的層次，可能超越食藥署訂定的安全標準，是在這樣的考量之下。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:46.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:46.743000+08:00","text":"說具體一點。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:46.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:50.146000+08:00","text":"所謂的超越食藥署的標準，是如何的超越法？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:50.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:53.768000+08:00","text":"我想它是整個行政團隊從……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:53.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:54.949000+08:00","text":"是哪個行政團隊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:54.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:55.830000+08:00","text":"很早以來，在美豬……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:19:56.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:19:57.871000+08:00","text":"目前這個行政團隊仍然是沿用這個標準嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:00.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:20:06.272000+08:00","text":"我想整體上在美豬進口時就已經訂完標準，我們在……是嘛！","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:08.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:20:12.176000+08:00","text":"因此，今天在委員會我們要談科學就來談科學嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:13.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:20:14.537000+08:00","text":"我現在搞不懂啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:16.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:20:19.600000+08:00","text":"外國的豬肉可以，臺灣的豬肉不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:21.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:20:31.527000+08:00","text":"外國豬肉在0.01ppm以下就是安全的，臺灣豬肉在0.01ppm以下的還是不安全，理由到底是什麼？","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:31.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:20:33.268000+08:00","text":"臺灣的豬肉是沒有使用、不准使用……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:34.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:20:34.888000+08:00","text":"這個我知道嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:35.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:20:41.949000+08:00","text":"沒有使用與法規上不能使用是兩回事，剛剛我已經把這個問題的層次剖析得很清楚了。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:42.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:20:55.252000+08:00","text":"消費者的選擇是消費者的選擇，消費者當然有選擇的自由，我們在資訊的提供上有沒有給消費者選擇的自由，那是另外一個層次的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:20:56.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:03.261000+08:00","text":"我現在的問題是、我現在的問題是，為什麼在規範的標準上有這樣的差別對待？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:04.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:18.028000+08:00","text":"在此向委員做進一步的報告，當初農業部訂下這一點，國內養豬不用萊克多巴胺是希望能夠確保臺灣豬肉的競爭力，這個部分其實是跨部會時提到這件事情……","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:18.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:19.268000+08:00","text":"你的意思是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:19.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:21.349000+08:00","text":"沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力，是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:24.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:26.700000+08:00","text":"否則，你剛剛講的那句話根本不成立啊？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:27.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:32.224000+08:00","text":"沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力，是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:32.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:35.546000+08:00","text":"我不是很確定每一個消費者想要的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:35.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:37.728000+08:00","text":"奇怪，這不是你剛剛講的嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:37.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:41.091000+08:00","text":"或者你剛剛的意思是沒有使用萊克多巴胺會降低競爭力？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:41.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:43.212000+08:00","text":"這是農業部提出來的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:43.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:44.814000+08:00","text":"所以不關衛福部的事情嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:45.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:48.954000+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，我們是在健康的標準上來維護……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:48.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:21:52.656000+08:00","text":"所以我就是與你討論健康的標準，但你繞來繞去就是不敢回答嘛！","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:21:53.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:00.419000+08:00","text":"從衛福部的觀點來講，0.01ppm以下就是安全的，是嗎？是吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:00.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:03.501000+08:00","text":"我們在邊境查察時一直是用這樣的標準去執行。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:04.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:09.667000+08:00","text":"為什麼你們在邊境查察要使用這個標準，因為在這個標準以下是安全的，對嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:10.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:14.851000+08:00","text":"相對的，我們在國內後市場端等等的查察也是採取同樣的標準。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:15.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:18.294000+08:00","text":"你的意思是在國內也用一樣的標準？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:18.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:20.636000+08:00","text":"是，我們都沒有查到，目前都是未檢出的狀況。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:21.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:27.982000+08:00","text":"如果在國內查到超出0.001ppm的話，在法規上是允許的嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:27.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:31.305000+08:00","text":"我講的是本國的豬肉，在法規上是允許的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:33.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:37.592000+08:00","text":"0.001ppm，就像現在澳洲豬腳查到的量是一樣的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:38.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:38.813000+08:00","text":"目前是不行，因為國內……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:39.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:41.274000+08:00","text":"目前是不行嘛！對嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:41.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:44.295000+08:00","text":"所以我就問你，差別對待的理由在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:46.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:22:58.462000+08:00","text":"這邊向委員特別說明，當初應該是農業部訂下的規定，他們特別提到一段話：為確保臺灣豬肉競爭力，臺灣豬絕對不使用瘦肉精……對嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:22:58.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:03.390000+08:00","text":"所以我就問你，確保臺灣豬肉競爭力是什麼意思？奇怪！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:04.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:05.132000+08:00","text":"打高空！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:06.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:08.035000+08:00","text":"講一些空話！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:08.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:09.717000+08:00","text":"講一些一般人民聽得懂的，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:10.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:12.681000+08:00","text":"什麼是提升臺灣豬肉的競爭力？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:13.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:18.587000+08:00","text":"是不是表示不用萊克多巴胺比較有競爭力，是不是這樣？是嗎？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:19.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:20.249000+08:00","text":"或者農業部的這句話是什麼意思？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:20.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:23.453000+08:00","text":"作為衛福部的官員，你其實也不是很清楚。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:25.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:30.003000+08:00","text":"的確，關於這個部分，我們尊重跨部會農業部的說法。對啊！","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:30.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:34.025000+08:00","text":"如果連你都看不懂的話，一般消費者怎麼看得懂？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:35.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:40.548000+08:00","text":"連我們衛福部的官員都看不懂，一般的消費者怎麼會看得懂？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:41.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:56.495000+08:00","text":"或是現在政府部門當官的都專門講抽象的、打太極、講虛無飄渺的，搞到連衛福部官員都聽不懂農業部的那句話是什麼意思，這樣一般人看得懂嗎？","quality":0.683},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:56.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:57.035000+08:00","text":"一般人看得懂嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:57.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:59.236000+08:00","text":"我們打開天窗說亮話，臺灣豬絕不使用瘦肉精，提升國產豬肉競爭力，為什麼？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:23:59.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:23:59.696000+08:00","text":"因為消費者不希望有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:14.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:14.321000+08:00","text":"理由就是這樣，有什麼好閃躲的？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:14.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:14.541000+08:00","text":"本來就是這個樣子嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:14.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:14.901000+08:00","text":"為什麼一般消費者不喜歡有萊劑的？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:14.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:15.662000+08:00","text":"因為大家會擔心，所以要將心比心，站在一般人的觀點來思考這個問題。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:15.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:15.882000+08:00","text":"這件事情有這麼複雜嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:15.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:43.282000+08:00","text":"為了要幫一個奇怪的政策辯護，繞來繞去、繞來繞去，為什麼要做這樣的宣示？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:43.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:46.583000+08:00","text":"就是希望臺灣的消費者安心，事情就是這麼簡單嘛！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:46.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:48.423000+08:00","text":"部長，我說的對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:48.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:49.064000+08:00","text":"從民眾的立場來講，應該是這樣做在國內會比較有競爭力。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:49.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:24:52.464000+08:00","text":"你覺得消費者會關心臺灣的豬肉有沒有競爭力嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:24:52.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:08.563000+08:00","text":"消費者關心的是臺灣豬肉好不好吃、安不安全，是嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:09.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:11.928000+08:00","text":"他們會比較傾向於買這種……對嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:12.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:15.133000+08:00","text":"你覺得消費者應該要有知的權利嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:15.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:15.874000+08:00","text":"到底是有或沒有？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:16.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:17.576000+08:00","text":"消費者有沒有權利知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:17.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:18.778000+08:00","text":"當然要有知的權利。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:19.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:22.043000+08:00","text":"當然要有知的權利，因此，如果有驗出的話，應不應該要標示？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:24.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:26.323000+08:00","text":"我們標示原產地就知道它的……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:29.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:31.267000+08:00","text":"部長，你這樣回答問題很危險喔！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:31.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:32.628000+08:00","text":"你標示原產地就知道……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:32.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:34.330000+08:00","text":"原料的原產地。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:34.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:36.271000+08:00","text":"不是，這樣風險非常的高啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:37.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:42.436000+08:00","text":"因為同樣是澳洲的生產地，但有的有使用、有的沒有使用，然而消費者在意的是什麼？","quality":0.618},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:42.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:45.058000+08:00","text":"消費者在意的是到底有沒有使用嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:46.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:53.364000+08:00","text":"剛剛你也承認消費者應該要有知的權利，所以我才問你是否應該要標示，你認為應不應該要標示？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:25:53.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:25:58.846000+08:00","text":"現在國內外的牛豬都是一體適用原料原產地的標示。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:00.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:03.569000+08:00","text":"這個事情在未來是否會改變？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:03.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:06.030000+08:00","text":"這個事情在未來是否會改變？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:06.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:10.432000+08:00","text":"現在大家擔心的是第二個層次的事情，也就是原產地的標示是否會堅持？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:11.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:13.334000+08:00","text":"我們目前就衛福部……是啊！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:13.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:16.716000+08:00","text":"我知道目前是這樣，但我的意思是之後會不會堅持下去？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:17.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:26.978000+08:00","text":"譬如美國認為這是非關稅障礙，要求臺灣改變作法，衛福部的立場會不會鬆動？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:26.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:32.524000+08:00","text":"衛福部的立場就是要維護人民的健康與食安。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:32.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:32.824000+08:00","text":"所以會不會鬆動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:39.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:44.454000+08:00","text":"人民的利益與國家的發展是我們考量的，當然我們也是遵照……","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:45.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:50.236000+08:00","text":"你講得很有藝術，我拜託你講一些庶民聽得懂的話啦！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:50.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:54.418000+08:00","text":"美國要求將原產地標示拿掉，臺灣政府的立場會不會鬆動？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:54.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:26:54.578000+08:00","text":"會或不會？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:26:57.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:00.609000+08:00","text":"你就有氣魄的講，絕對不會鬆動！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:01.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:08.730000+08:00","text":"你可以向臺灣人民保證，衛福部的立場很堅定，為了要捍衛臺灣消費者的權益，這件事情的立場絕對不鬆動！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:08.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:09.410000+08:00","text":"你只要這樣講就好了嘛！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:09.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:15.011000+08:00","text":"衛福部保證一定會堅持食安至上，至於……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:16.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:18.112000+08:00","text":"你對於原產地標示會不會堅持？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:20.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:21.252000+08:00","text":"我們就按照這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:21.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:22.252000+08:00","text":"按照什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:21.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:28.175000+08:00","text":"根據國際的標準，我們按照規定來處理。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:29.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:31.117000+08:00","text":"現在的規定是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:31.117000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:32.117000+08:00","text":"我們按照規定來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:31.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:32.198000+08:00","text":"現在的規定是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:32.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:33.779000+08:00","text":"現在的規定就是原料原產地……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:34.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:34.720000+08:00","text":"要標示嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:35.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:37.763000+08:00","text":"這個規定會不會變動？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:37.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:41.186000+08:00","text":"會不會隨著美方的壓力而變動，其實大家在意的就是這個問題嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:41.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:46.430000+08:00","text":"你講得支支吾吾的，直接回答問題有這麼難嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:46.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:49.332000+08:00","text":"還是上面有交代，不可以承諾這件事情？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:51.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:51.577000+08:00","text":"是有交代嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:27:52.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:27:56.179000+08:00","text":"如果你說是有交代，那麼我就算了，因為我為難你沒有意思嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:00.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:02.521000+08:00","text":"沒有交代，我們只是按照大家的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:03.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:12.085000+08:00","text":"如果沒有交代，部長就不必擔心，你就有氣魄一點，直接就在這裡承諾，現在原產地標示的標準絕對不會鬆動，好不好？","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:12.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:14.045000+08:00","text":"因為政府是一體的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:14.045000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:15.465500+08:00","text":"所以呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:15.465500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:16.886000+08:00","text":"我們要尊重大家討論的……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:16.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:18.227000+08:00","text":"所以是哪個部會有意見？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:22.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:30.791000+08:00","text":"這個我也不清楚，我們就是一起討論，站在人民第一、國家至上的立場……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:30.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:31.171000+08:00","text":"是、是、是，我相信啦！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:32.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:34.072000+08:00","text":"喊口號真的都非常會啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:34.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:35.113000+08:00","text":"部長，真的辛苦了！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:36.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:53.250000+08:00","text":"擔任這個部長真的很辛苦，必須想出各式各樣抽象的詞語來迴避問題，但是我不為難你，我只是要表達一個立場，過去我們為了國際經貿情勢，臺灣人讓步過、臺灣人讓步過，為什麼我說臺灣人讓步過？","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:53.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:57.392000+08:00","text":"從剛才我質詢的第一個問題就清楚呈現出來，我們讓步過，結果換到了什麼？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:28:57.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:28:58.132000+08:00","text":"這是現在大家要問的問題、這是現在大家要問的問題。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:11.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:29:13.228000+08:00","text":"現在我們要不要退第二步？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:14.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:29:15.868000+08:00","text":"這是現在大家關心的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:15.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:29:31.253000+08:00","text":"根據我從民間社會獲得的絕大多數反映，認為原產地的標示退無可退，不能再退了，我希望部長要將這些人民的聲音放在心裡面，好不好？是。","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:32.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:29:32.913000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:32.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:29:33.913000+08:00","text":"一定放在心裡。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:32.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:29:43.896000+08:00","text":"你沒發現我已經退一步，沒有要你承諾了，只是簡單地要你把這些話放在心裡面，這樣沒有很困難吧？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:45.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:29:47.358000+08:00","text":"黃委員的話，我永遠都放在心裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:47.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-08T14:29:47.779000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:48.279000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:29:51.993286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長，辛苦了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-08T14:29:52.293286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:30:03.436143+08:00","text":"本日會議詢答全部結束，委員顏寬恒、張嘉郡、伍麗華及翁曉玲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:30:03.736143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:30:10.307571+08:00","text":"澳洲進口豬腳驗出萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品查驗專報","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:30:10.607571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:30:37.750429+08:00","text":"請教邱泰源部長，5/6日新增2批澳洲進口「冷凍豬腳」檢出萊克多巴胺，目前累計3批，公布的這2批「冷凍豬腳」跟首批萊豬為同一製造廠，但屬不同進口貿易商，請教衛福部，未來我們有可能針對這家廠商的進口至台灣的豬肉進行逐批查驗嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:30:38.050429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:30:54.050429+08:00","text":"本席要在幫大家恢復記憶一下這份農業部部公文，清清楚楚的公告，國內禁止製造、調劑、輸入、輸出、販賣「乙型受體素」也就是所謂的瘦肉精！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:30:54.350429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:31:00.350429+08:00","text":"但是台灣的豬肉市場已經被民進黨政府給破壞了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:31:00.650429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:31:18.079000+08:00","text":"國內禁止使用，國外的廠商卻可以進口，但是進口之後流向不明，讓國內的民眾已經失去信心了，衛福部真的責無旁貸，不是只有做一個網站草草了事！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:31:18.379000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:31:35.521857+08:00","text":"國內的民眾都很擔心，豬肉真的是國內民眾經常食用的食材，查驗是不是有疏漏，本席認為民眾對於政府的查驗能力一定是打了一個大大的問號！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:31:35.821857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:31:55.536143+08:00","text":"請教部長，也跟標章有關，過去政府推出使用台灣豬的標章，上網就可以下載，大家都可以取得，也因此爆發了不肖的廠商用進口豬肉，但是卻還是貼著使用台灣豬的標章！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:31:55.836143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:32:07.264714+08:00","text":"請教部長，這是國外市場對於沒有使用萊克多巴胺的標章貼紙，我們有沒有辦法做到這樣的標章？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:32:07.564714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:32:09.564714+08:00","text":"政府認證的標章！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:32:09.864714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:32:32.436143+08:00","text":"民眾的食用安全絕對是要擺在第一的，民進黨政府既然要開放進口含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉，我們當然就要要求查驗要做到100%，同時保障國內的豬肉業者，讓他們可以有天然台灣豬的專屬標章！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:32:32.736143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:32:43.021857+08:00","text":"本席建議，衛福部應該要跨部會研議，比照國外，有不含萊克多巴胺的天然台灣豬肉標章！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:32:43.321857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:32:55.893286+08:00","text":"既然我們國內有出現含有瘦肉精的豬肉，就應該讓乾淨、天然的豬肉作出區別，方法就是有認證、專屬的標章！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員顏寬恒書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:32:56.193286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:32:59.907571+08:00","text":"讓民眾可以買的安心、吃得安心！","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員張嘉郡書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:33:00.207571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:33:16.207571+08:00","text":"一、近期連續驗出三批含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉產品，政府卻拒絕公布流向資訊，也未要求標示，甚至可能流入學校營養午餐，影響學童健康。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員張嘉郡書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:33:16.507571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:33:24.221857+08:00","text":"請問部長：政府能否承諾公布萊豬流向，保障民眾知情權與選擇權？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員張嘉郡書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:33:24.521857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:33:41.093286+08:00","text":"二、目前邊境僅採2%至10%的抽批查驗，卻已驗出多批問題產品，若在低抽驗率下已連續驗出含藥豬肉，請問部長能否承諾恢復「100%逐批查驗」制度？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員張嘉郡書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:33:41.393286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:33:47.107571+08:00","text":"若否，請說明為何仍認為現行標準足以保護食安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員張嘉郡書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:33:47.407571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:34:01.693286+08:00","text":"三、國內豬農嚴格遵守禁用萊劑規定，政府卻放任含藥豬肉進口、資訊不透明，請問部長是否認為此舉對本國養豬產業公平？","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員張嘉郡書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:34:01.993286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:34:14.564714+08:00","text":"是否願意提出具體配套保障產業發展與民眾健康，以釐清萊豬進口與國人健康保障之間的政策優先順序？","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:34:14.864714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:34:22.293286+08:00","text":"委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe書面質詢：","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:34:22.593286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:34:51.164714+08:00","text":"本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe，長期關心山地原鄉長照資源，多次質詢家托24小時與住宿式機構之佈建情形，值長照2.0檢討與長照3.0推動之際，本人提出以下質詢，請於1周內提出書面報告回復本席，特向衛福部提出質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:34:51.464714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:34:56.036143+08:00","text":"一、長照3.0對於山地原鄉長照有何規劃？","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:34:56.336143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:35:17.193286+08:00","text":"二，本次衛福部專題報告第一頁提及「積極布建各類長照服務資源」包含長照ABC、居家服務資源、日間照護中心、家庭托顧服務、住宿式機構，請問上述服務在山地原鄉的建置數量？","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:35:17.493286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:35:24.921857+08:00","text":"衛福部有無評估目前各項服務數量在山地原鄉地區是否足夠？","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:35:25.221857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:35:36.364714+08:00","text":"如何強化各項資源在山地原鄉的佈建，確保山地原住民族人在長照3.0能獲得適當的長照資源？","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:35:36.664714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:35:47.236143+08:00","text":"三本席多次關心山地原鄉未被納入「長照住宿式服務資源獎助布建區域」，目前是否已納入？","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:35:47.536143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:36:05.536143+08:00","text":"依據衛福部網站114.05.02公布之獎勵布建住宿式長照機構資源計畫-114年度待獎勵區域，仍未見山地原鄉，請問在長照3.0裡對於山地原鄉住宿式機構有何規劃？","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:36:05.836143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:36:29.264714+08:00","text":"四，關於山地原鄉長照住宿式機構，牡丹鄉公所願意提供臨199縣道之適當公有土地做為基地，爭取衛福部補助，建置結合長照（含住宿型）、衛生所及醫療之設施，以供牡丹鄉族人得就近享受長照及醫療資源。","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:36:29.564714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:36:37.850429+08:00","text":"請問衛福部是否願意支持山地原鄉首個住宿式機構落腳屏東牡丹鄉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"案由","start":"2025-05-08T14:36:38.150429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:36:48.150429+08:00","text":"五、「家托24小時」為本席從第10屆起即積極推動，請問目前家托24小時在山地原鄉的辦理情形。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員翁曉玲書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:36:48.450429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:37:09.593286+08:00","text":"本院翁曉玲委員，有鑑於萊克多巴胺豬肉（萊豬）流向攸關民眾食品安全與健康，特於立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議，向衛生福利部提出書面質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員翁曉玲書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:37:09.893286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:37:19.893286+08:00","text":"為保障民眾食品安全與健康，請於衛生福利部就以下問題提出說明，並於兩週內回覆：","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員翁曉玲書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:37:20.193286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:37:33.336143+08:00","text":"一、　貴部曾表示，萊豬風險低、產品符合進口標準即不公開其流向資料；「在容許值範圍內，即使吃一輩子也不會超標」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員翁曉玲書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:37:33.636143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:37:49.064714+08:00","text":"為避免民眾恐慌，讓國人充分了解政府的風險管理依據與科學判斷依憑，請提供相關評估報告與統計資料，以釐清此一說法的依據。","quality":0},{"speaker":"委員翁曉玲書面質詢","start":"2025-05-08T14:37:49.364714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:38:12.507571+08:00","text":"二、消費者有知情權與選擇權利，食品是否含有萊劑應充分揭露，就萊豬比照基因改造食品，於產品成分中明確標示含有萊克多巴胺，或直接於豬肉外包裝上加註「含有萊劑」等警示，我國之立場或政策。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席：現在作以下決定","start":"2025-05-08T14:38:12.807571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:38:26.236143+08:00","text":"報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2周內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席：現在作以下決定","start":"2025-05-08T14:38:26.536143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:38:29.964714+08:00","text":"本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席：現在作以下決定","start":"2025-05-08T14:38:30.264714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-08T14:38:31.407571+08:00","text":"散會（14時30分）","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1412,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（14時14分）謝謝召委，麻煩請部長和長照司司長。"],["主席：部長、祝司長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：本席還沒有開始問，時間就開始跑了。真的啊！本席還在等，可是時間就開始跑了！沒有關係啦！只是善意提醒而已！在開始今天質詢的主題之前，本席先請教一下祝司長。司長，現在休息時間還有要同仁深蹲嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：沒有，那個事件發生之後就先停止了。"],["黃委員國昌：先停止？以後會繼續嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：現在同仁都是……"],["黃委員國昌：都是怎麼樣？"],["祝司長健芳：有一些是放音樂之後，他們就會自己站起來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！同仁如果是自願做的話，沒有人會禁止嘛！像本席晚上如果要去健身房深蹲，那也是我的選擇，但這是自己要做深蹲，和上面長官用逼迫的方式不同。可能從你的角度來說，這樣說太強烈了，你用鼓勵……"],["祝司長健芳：我們真的是鼓勵。"],["黃委員國昌：對，沒有關係啦！各方有各方的說法嘛！現在本席要確定一件事情，你還有繼續鼓勵同仁做深蹲嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：基本上已經沒有了。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有了？"],["祝司長健芳：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你會不會再要求同仁比伏地挺身？"],["祝司長健芳：那個真的是……"],["黃委員國昌：誤會？"],["祝司長健芳：對，沒有這樣的事。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你不會這樣做嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：本來就沒有這樣做。"],["黃委員國昌：未來也不會嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：當然不會，健康是自己的。"],["邱部長泰源：未來也不會啦！"],["黃委員國昌：本席只是要這個承諾啦！衛福部的調查報告出來之後，各界有很多指教，本席相信部長有看到啦！相信司長也有看到。本席今天之所以問這個問題，不是要揭以前的瘡疤，是要確保這件事情不會再發生。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：部長可以承諾嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好。進入今天的主題，有關豬肉含有萊克多巴胺，很多委員都很關心，今天有通過一項臨時提案，本席也看到了。從所謂的客觀可接受的健康風險管理來說，到底含有多少萊克多巴胺的劑量是客觀可接受，對人體不會造成傷害？"],["姜署長至剛：這部分由我來向委員說明。國內針對牛和豬，牛肉和其他可食部分是0.01ppm，豬肉和其他可食部分是0.01ppm。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這是客觀可接受的健康風險嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：很多毒理專家、食安專家以及……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這些專家所建立的標準，衛福部是接受的？"],["姜署長至剛：當初經過討論，後來是有通過這樣的標準，食藥署要按照這樣的基準管理。"],["黃委員國昌：對。所以請你針對問題回答，0.01ppm是衛福部代表政府的立場，訂定的客觀可接受的風險嘛！是嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以在這個劑量之下，對人體健康不會有傷害嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：沒有證據特別提到它的傷害性。"],["黃委員國昌：是，目前國內養豬可以使用萊克多巴胺嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：目前國內是沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼國內禁止使用？"],["姜署長至剛：這對……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你不是說0.01ppm是客觀的標準、是科學的標準、是專家討論以後的標準？那本席就不懂了，在臺灣，百分之百禁用萊克多巴胺的理由是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：就我個人的……"],["黃委員國昌：是因為臺灣的豬肉一旦含有萊克多巴胺，不管劑量有多少，都對健康有風險嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我想應該不是這樣子的……"],["黃委員國昌：那是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：那是在當初的背景之下，希望對……"],["黃委員國昌：當初是什麼背景？"],["姜署長至剛：因為國內的豬肉大概占90%，相對於進口的量，在有可能允許的情況之下，經過競合之後，提供國人不一樣的選擇，這大概是當初的……"],["黃委員國昌：市場上所謂的不一樣選擇，這都是消費者的選擇，和國家法令規範的標準是兩回事，不要混為一談。您今天做為專家、政務官，本席希望你能代表政府的立場告訴全臺灣的人民，客觀可接受的專家標準到底是什麼？現在本席不懂的是，如果政府的標準是認為0.01ppm是客觀可接受的風險，為什麼國內的豬肉禁止使用萊克多巴胺？因為只要不超過0.01ppm就好啦！不是這樣嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：這個議題思考的層次，可能超越食藥署訂定的安全標準，是在這樣的考量之下。"],["黃委員國昌：說具體一點。所謂的超越食藥署的標準，是如何的超越法？"],["姜署長至剛：我想它是整個行政團隊從……"],["黃委員國昌：是哪個行政團隊？"],["姜署長至剛：很早以來，在美豬……"],["黃委員國昌：目前這個行政團隊仍然是沿用這個標準嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我想整體上在美豬進口時就已經訂完標準，我們在……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！因此，今天在委員會我們要談科學就來談科學嘛！我現在搞不懂啊！外國的豬肉可以，臺灣的豬肉不可以？外國豬肉在0.01ppm以下就是安全的，臺灣豬肉在0.01ppm以下的還是不安全，理由到底是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：臺灣的豬肉是沒有使用、不准使用……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我知道嘛！沒有使用與法規上不能使用是兩回事，剛剛我已經把這個問題的層次剖析得很清楚了。消費者的選擇是消費者的選擇，消費者當然有選擇的自由，我們在資訊的提供上有沒有給消費者選擇的自由，那是另外一個層次的事情。我現在的問題是、我現在的問題是，為什麼在規範的標準上有這樣的差別對待？"],["姜署長至剛：在此向委員做進一步的報告，當初農業部訂下這一點，國內養豬不用萊克多巴胺是希望能夠確保臺灣豬肉的競爭力，這個部分其實是跨部會時提到這件事情……"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是什麼？沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力，是嗎？否則，你剛剛講的那句話根本不成立啊？沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力，是這樣嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我不是很確定每一個消費者想要的……"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，這不是你剛剛講的嗎？或者你剛剛的意思是沒有使用萊克多巴胺會降低競爭力？"],["姜署長至剛：這是農業部提出來的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不關衛福部的事情嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：關於這個部分，我們是在健康的標準上來維護……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就是與你討論健康的標準，但你繞來繞去就是不敢回答嘛！從衛福部的觀點來講，0.01ppm以下就是安全的，是嗎？是吧？"],["姜署長至剛：我們在邊境查察時一直是用這樣的標準去執行。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼你們在邊境查察要使用這個標準，因為在這個標準以下是安全的，對嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：相對的，我們在國內後市場端等等的查察也是採取同樣的標準。"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是在國內也用一樣的標準？"],["姜署長至剛：是，我們都沒有查到，目前都是未檢出的狀況。"],["黃委員國昌：如果在國內查到超出0.001ppm的話，在法規上是允許的嗎？我講的是本國的豬肉，在法規上是允許的嗎？0.001ppm，就像現在澳洲豬腳查到的量是一樣的？"],["姜署長至剛：目前是不行，因為國內……"],["黃委員國昌：目前是不行嘛！對嘛！所以我就問你，差別對待的理由在哪裡？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊向委員特別說明，當初應該是農業部訂下的規定，他們特別提到一段話：為確保臺灣豬肉競爭力，臺灣豬絕對不使用瘦肉精……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我就問你，確保臺灣豬肉競爭力是什麼意思？奇怪！打高空！講一些空話！講一些一般人民聽得懂的，好不好？什麼是提升臺灣豬肉的競爭力？是不是表示不用萊克多巴胺比較有競爭力，是不是這樣？是嗎？或者農業部的這句話是什麼意思？作為衛福部的官員，你其實也不是很清楚。"],["姜署長至剛：的確，關於這個部分，我們尊重跨部會農業部的說法。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！如果連你都看不懂的話，一般消費者怎麼看得懂？連我們衛福部的官員都看不懂，一般的消費者怎麼會看得懂？或是現在政府部門當官的都專門講抽象的、打太極、講虛無飄渺的，搞到連衛福部官員都聽不懂農業部的那句話是什麼意思，這樣一般人看得懂嗎？一般人看得懂嗎？我們打開天窗說亮話，臺灣豬絕不使用瘦肉精，提升國產豬肉競爭力，為什麼？因為消費者不希望有嘛！理由就是這樣，有什麼好閃躲的？本來就是這個樣子嘛！為什麼一般消費者不喜歡有萊劑的？因為大家會擔心，所以要將心比心，站在一般人的觀點來思考這個問題。這件事情有這麼複雜嗎？為了要幫一個奇怪的政策辯護，繞來繞去、繞來繞去，為什麼要做這樣的宣示？就是希望臺灣的消費者安心，事情就是這麼簡單嘛！部長，我說的對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：從民眾的立場來講，應該是這樣做在國內會比較有競爭力。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得消費者會關心臺灣的豬肉有沒有競爭力嗎？消費者關心的是臺灣豬肉好不好吃、安不安全，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：他們會比較傾向於買這種……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你覺得消費者應該要有知的權利嗎？到底是有或沒有？消費者有沒有權利知道？"],["邱部長泰源：當然要有知的權利。"],["黃委員國昌：當然要有知的權利，因此，如果有驗出的話，應不應該要標示？"],["邱部長泰源：我們標示原產地就知道它的……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你這樣回答問題很危險喔！你標示原產地就知道……"],["邱部長泰源：原料的原產地。"],["黃委員國昌：不是，這樣風險非常的高啦！因為同樣是澳洲的生產地，但有的有使用、有的沒有使用，然而消費者在意的是什麼？消費者在意的是到底有沒有使用嘛！剛剛你也承認消費者應該要有知的權利，所以我才問你是否應該要標示，你認為應不應該要標示？"],["邱部長泰源：現在國內外的牛豬都是一體適用原料原產地的標示。"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情在未來是否會改變？這個事情在未來是否會改變？現在大家擔心的是第二個層次的事情，也就是原產地的標示是否會堅持？"],["邱部長泰源：我們目前就衛福部……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！我知道目前是這樣，但我的意思是之後會不會堅持下去？譬如美國認為這是非關稅障礙，要求臺灣改變作法，衛福部的立場會不會鬆動？"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部的立場就是要維護人民的健康與食安。"],["黃委員國昌：所以會不會鬆動？"],["邱部長泰源：人民的利益與國家的發展是我們考量的，當然我們也是遵照……"],["黃委員國昌：你講得很有藝術，我拜託你講一些庶民聽得懂的話啦！美國要求將原產地標示拿掉，臺灣政府的立場會不會鬆動？會或不會？你就有氣魄的講，絕對不會鬆動！你可以向臺灣人民保證，衛福部的立場很堅定，為了要捍衛臺灣消費者的權益，這件事情的立場絕對不鬆動！你只要這樣講就好了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部保證一定會堅持食安至上，至於……"],["黃委員國昌：你對於原產地標示會不會堅持？"],["邱部長泰源：我們就按照這個……"],["黃委員國昌：按照什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：根據國際的標準，我們按照規定來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在的規定是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我們按照規定來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在的規定是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：現在的規定就是原料原產地……"],["黃委員國昌：要標示嘛！這個規定會不會變動？會不會隨著美方的壓力而變動，其實大家在意的就是這個問題嘛！你講得支支吾吾的，直接回答問題有這麼難嗎？還是上面有交代，不可以承諾這件事情？是有交代嗎？如果你說是有交代，那麼我就算了，因為我為難你沒有意思嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有交代，我們只是按照大家的……"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有交代，部長就不必擔心，你就有氣魄一點，直接就在這裡承諾，現在原產地標示的標準絕對不會鬆動，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：因為政府是一體的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們要尊重大家討論的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是哪個部會有意見？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我也不清楚，我們就是一起討論，站在人民第一、國家至上的立場……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，我相信啦！喊口號真的都非常會啦！部長，真的辛苦了！擔任這個部長真的很辛苦，必須想出各式各樣抽象的詞語來迴避問題，但是我不為難你，我只是要表達一個立場，過去我們為了國際經貿情勢，臺灣人讓步過、臺灣人讓步過，為什麼我說臺灣人讓步過？從剛才我質詢的第一個問題就清楚呈現出來，我們讓步過，結果換到了什麼？這是現在大家要問的問題、這是現在大家要問的問題。現在我們要不要退第二步？這是現在大家關心的問題。根據我從民間社會獲得的絕大多數反映，認為原產地的標示退無可退，不能再退了，我希望部長要將這些人民的聲音放在心裡面，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：一定放在心裡。"],["黃委員國昌：你沒發現我已經退一步，沒有要你承諾了，只是簡單地要你把這些話放在心裡面，這樣沒有很困難吧？"],["邱部長泰源：黃委員的話，我永遠都放在心裡。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長，辛苦了。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員顏寬恒、張嘉郡、伍麗華及翁曉玲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員顏寬恒書面質詢：","澳洲進口豬腳驗出萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品查驗專報","委員：請教邱泰源部長，5/6日新增2批澳洲進口「冷凍豬腳」檢出萊克多巴胺，目前累計3批，公布的這2批「冷凍豬腳」跟首批萊豬為同一製造廠，但屬不同進口貿易商，請教衛福部，未來我們有可能針對這家廠商的進口至台灣的豬肉進行逐批查驗嗎？","委員：本席要在幫大家恢復記憶一下這份農業部部公文，清清楚楚的公告，國內禁止製造、調劑、輸入、輸出、販賣「乙型受體素」也就是所謂的瘦肉精！","但是台灣的豬肉市場已經被民進黨政府給破壞了！國內禁止使用，國外的廠商卻可以進口，但是進口之後流向不明，讓國內的民眾已經失去信心了，衛福部真的責無旁貸，不是只有做一個網站草草了事！","委員：國內的民眾都很擔心，豬肉真的是國內民眾經常食用的食材，查驗是不是有疏漏，本席認為民眾對於政府的查驗能力一定是打了一個大大的問號！","請教部長，也跟標章有關，過去政府推出使用台灣豬的標章，上網就可以下載，大家都可以取得，也因此爆發了不肖的廠商用進口豬肉，但是卻還是貼著使用台灣豬的標章！","請教部長，這是國外市場對於沒有使用萊克多巴胺的標章貼紙，我們有沒有辦法做到這樣的標章？政府認證的標章！","委員：民眾的食用安全絕對是要擺在第一的，民進黨政府既然要開放進口含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉，我們當然就要要求查驗要做到100%，同時保障國內的豬肉業者，讓他們可以有天然台灣豬的專屬標章！","本席建議，衛福部應該要跨部會研議，比照國外，有不含萊克多巴胺的天然台灣豬肉標章！","既然我們國內有出現含有瘦肉精的豬肉，就應該讓乾淨、天然的豬肉作出區別，方法就是有認證、專屬的標章！讓民眾可以買的安心、吃得安心！"],["委員張嘉郡書面質詢：","一、近期連續驗出三批含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉產品，政府卻拒絕公布流向資訊，也未要求標示，甚至可能流入學校營養午餐，影響學童健康。請問部長：政府能否承諾公布萊豬流向，保障民眾知情權與選擇權？","二、目前邊境僅採2%至10%的抽批查驗，卻已驗出多批問題產品，若在低抽驗率下已連續驗出含藥豬肉，請問部長能否承諾恢復「100%逐批查驗」制度？若否，請說明為何仍認為現行標準足以保護食安。","三、國內豬農嚴格遵守禁用萊劑規定，政府卻放任含藥豬肉進口、資訊不透明，請問部長是否認為此舉對本國養豬產業公平？是否願意提出具體配套保障產業發展與民眾健康，以釐清萊豬進口與國人健康保障之間的政策優先順序？"],["委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe書面質詢：","案由：本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe，長期關心山地原鄉長照資源，多次質詢家托24小時與住宿式機構之佈建情形，值長照2.0檢討與長照3.0推動之際，本人提出以下質詢，請於1周內提出書面報告回復本席，特向衛福部提出質詢。","說明：","一、長照3.0對於山地原鄉長照有何規劃？","二，本次衛福部專題報告第一頁提及「積極布建各類長照服務資源」包含長照ABC、居家服務資源、日間照護中心、家庭托顧服務、住宿式機構，請問上述服務在山地原鄉的建置數量？衛福部有無評估目前各項服務數量在山地原鄉地區是否足夠？如何強化各項資源在山地原鄉的佈建，確保山地原住民族人在長照3.0能獲得適當的長照資源？","三本席多次關心山地原鄉未被納入「長照住宿式服務資源獎助布建區域」，目前是否已納入？依據衛福部網站114.05.02公布之獎勵布建住宿式長照機構資源計畫-114年度待獎勵區域，仍未見山地原鄉，請問在長照3.0裡對於山地原鄉住宿式機構有何規劃？","四，關於山地原鄉長照住宿式機構，牡丹鄉公所願意提供臨199縣道之適當公有土地做為基地，爭取衛福部補助，建置結合長照（含住宿型）、衛生所及醫療之設施，以供牡丹鄉族人得就近享受長照及醫療資源。請問衛福部是否願意支持山地原鄉首個住宿式機構落腳屏東牡丹鄉？","五、「家托24小時」為本席從第10屆起即積極推動，請問目前家托24小時在山地原鄉的辦理情形。"],["委員翁曉玲書面質詢：","案由：本院翁曉玲委員，有鑑於萊克多巴胺豬肉（萊豬）流向攸關民眾食品安全與健康，特於立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議，向衛生福利部提出書面質詢。","說明：為保障民眾食品安全與健康，請於衛生福利部就以下問題提出說明，並於兩週內回覆：","一、　貴部曾表示，萊豬風險低、產品符合進口標準即不公開其流向資料；「在容許值範圍內，即使吃一輩子也不會超標」。為避免民眾恐慌，讓國人充分了解政府的風險管理依據與科學判斷依憑，請提供相關評估報告與統計資料，以釐清此一說法的依據。","二、消費者有知情權與選擇權利，食品是否含有萊劑應充分揭露，就萊豬比照基因改造食品，於產品成分中明確標示含有萊克多巴胺，或直接於豬肉外包裝上加註「含有萊劑」等警示，我國之立場或政策。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2周內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（14時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}