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one百分之九十八喔我非常好奇啊今天雖然兩岸大概一千零三十六萬解凍但無助於你們百分之九十八山洞被你們這段時間"},{"start":201.688,"end":220.627,"text":"能夠做什麼呢我跟吳委員報告一下今天的解凍案我們其實只有兩案一個是我們財申處印這個廉政專刊的錢468萬公積人員財產申報對公積人員財產申報另外是這個所謂的營建工程就是普及的維護嘛普及維護我們改管線"},{"start":221.447,"end":245.597,"text":"該管線我們去年省了15萬度所以我們還是希望它會通過那其他被刪除的部分其實是我們非常困擾所以現在包括我們所有的會議我們今年還有一個這個世界性的年會我們現在還在追這個預算到底要從何而來因為這是18個會員國參加那我們也希望趕快把這些預算能夠把它追回APOR年會"},{"start":246.417,"end":261.256,"text":"Apple年會那個是750萬所以我們整個業務如果吳委員看到我手上這張表會很清楚我們議事業務被刪了百分之百調查巡查被刪了百分之百一般行政刪了百分之百"},{"start":261.956,"end":283.467,"text":"那我們的國家人權剩下97%那我們唯一留下的是財產申報但是財產申報所需要用的系統因為放在一般行政裡面也被全數刪除所以我們實在非常辛苦我們現在所有的調查還有我們的公務車都是靠我們委員自己支撐的那你現在每天隨身攜帶衛生紙嗎我衛生紙都擺在辦公室裡"},{"start":288.564,"end":316.942,"text":"非常的辛苦喔希望能夠順利解凍不過監察院只解凍了1036萬我們堅持的是我們要做到憲法賦予我們的責任還有陽光司法交代我們的任務其他你們98%的刪減我看根本就沒頂沒當我們很遺憾但是我們還是盡力爭取好這就是立法院成了太上院來癱瘓其他的憲法機關監察院我們認為每個憲政機關都有它的功能"},{"start":318.183,"end":332.414,"text":"在上會期用這個職權行使法來讓我們調查權不能動那我們只好訴訟,那訴訟我們也贏了第二會期用預算讓我們監察院不能動那我們希望也是透過憲法訴訟的部分來爭取我們的權益"},{"start":334.355,"end":353.012,"text":"好那監察院是開第一槍針對總預算來提出釋憲這一週民進黨團也會跟進好那請林秘書長請回接下來是考試院喔下一頁考試院我先聚焦喔你們被凍結的很大一筆喔主要在野黨的委員是說要"},{"start":354.113,"end":369.523,"text":"反霸凌可是卻來動相關可以做霸凌的預算第二個呢是我們軍公教的退府基金的改進方案但非常遺憾警察人員人事條例被二修通過了年改走回頭路下一頁再下一頁"},{"start":371.345,"end":399.383,"text":"我想問一下 你們已經送出了公務人員保障法 烤雞法 還有安慰辦法嗎如果沒有被凍結預算 你們就會Pending 就會擺爛嗎還是原本你們就會負責任的把它送出來我記得還沒審預算之前 我就一直在關心你們一開始就保證再保證 這是重要的事情反霸凌制度下手相關的手法 你們就會做 這一黨委員為什麼要"},{"start":400.504,"end":428.651,"text":"用反霸凌的名義來動你們的預算呢來 米雙我們周鴻燕院長在立法院人事同意權的時候被質詢到相關的議題就已經承諾了嘛對 那時候大家就很關切這個霸凌法制化的問題那我們在立法院來備詢的時候也都有做相關的承諾所以當時我們抓的進度就是大概半年在這個會期五月上旬送過來所以我們在五月一號院會通過之後"},{"start":429.211,"end":457.476,"text":"5月6號送進來換言之在野黨委員去動這筆預算毫無道理因為原本你們的time table就是要做嘛立法委員的監督可以用各種方法包括本席我也這張PPT是我早就在業務報告的時候質詢你們的我也早就追蹤到你們會在這個會期送出我們希望下個會期完成修法甚至如果這個會期有研會的話也許更快也不一定嘛好 下一頁"},{"start":458.496,"end":478.971,"text":"那現在我問一下市部長這跟人事總署一起的私謠一直在催生的心理假這也是落實賴總統的這個心理健康的相關政策我們研議了請假辦法什麼時候可以上路這個比加發加增4加1天假我認為更重要"},{"start":480.286,"end":505.347,"text":"我想總署那邊完成那個研議完以後就送到我們這邊那我們現在正在進行預告預告完以後呢我們就會送到考試院去做最後的一個確認考試院確認以後再跟行政院做會嫌我想應該不會太慢啦所以現在布送到院考試院要快一點喔然後考試院再送到行政院來會嫌我想那個蘇人事長我們都同意吧兩位"},{"start":507.128,"end":520.103,"text":"都是主事者 明年上路公務體系的薪禮價是不是可以期待 是不是 YES一定是的 肯定是的好 很好 謝謝你們的答案我不需要凍結預算 我也可以催生公務人員的薪禮價因為我可以透過我"},{"start":525.183,"end":539.479,"text":"鍥而不捨的監督各項會議達到這個政策的目的下一頁還有一件事情我要提醒一下退府基金我多次來說退府基金我們需要下一頁做到"},{"start":542.323,"end":563.31,"text":"退府基金呢對於投資碳足跡居然是所有的高包括勞保新制的勞退就制的勞退郵政儲金我們都是投資金額裡頭投資碳足跡最高的所以用國家的退府基金來投資高碳產業我們一定要檢討下一頁"},{"start":565.271,"end":585.971,"text":"所以氣候相關財務揭露TCFD國內各金控已經上路了綠色金融3.0也納入了退府基金要跟上我質詢過今天有一筆解凍案就是跟退府基金的管理相關可不可以正面的告訴我你們這方面已經在努力跟上了是 部長"},{"start":586.671,"end":612.945,"text":"剛剛委員報我們已經在努力而且我們已經正式出版一個報告那我們也要召開一個會議那未來我們的投資策略組合裡面就會把這議題也一併會納進去也謝謝委員一直在關心這個比今天在野黨委員凍結你們退府基金要你們針對投資的決策會議紀錄公開還重要的多還重要的多我希望你們能夠趕快跟上好我最後一個題目再佔用我一分鐘來人事長來我到國會"},{"start":617.236,"end":638.917,"text":"下一頁 下一頁 下一頁人事總長 人事長最近大家都在關心國安漏洞所以針對公務體系的一般忠誠查核或是特查一般查核是你們進行 特查是調查局那最近我們都針對國會國會成為國安漏洞的死角"},{"start":640.378,"end":666.443,"text":"那天我們在質詢了調查局他們希望能夠針對現在1328個特查的職位要擴充到2336個但是還是沒有納入立法院的職員工那您的看法呢我想這個部分還是要尊重立法院內部的一個規範那您也支持如果立法院訂定自己的特查辦法那後續你們跟調查局分工上大家來協力進行"},{"start":667.56,"end":689.736,"text":"如果是立法院通過的話我想特查這部分就是調查局他一定會按照整個規定去執行那需要的人力缺口我們會給現在您是督導管理所有公務體系人員的這個大家長您認為立法院的職員工現在被排除在特查之外"},{"start":690.797,"end":705.776,"text":"立法院的職員工接觸機密的機會非常高您認不認為來督促立法院訂定特查辦法基本上我們還是要尊重立法院的你知不支持嘛否則國安漏洞就在立法院嘛"},{"start":706.619,"end":728.509,"text":"因為委員也講得很清楚因為在立法院接觸到精品資料的場合還有那個人員也非常的多啦我希望任市長您要更積極正面一點不能因為特查辦法是調查局在進行你就好像沒藥沒金我要說的是所有公務體系同仁都是用於公務人員任用法"},{"start":729.269,"end":757.251,"text":"公務人員服務法它適用的法規是一致的沒有道理只有立法院的職員工語文機密這麼高他們卻長期被排除所以我具體要求調查局已經從1328個特查職位要擴充到2336個但是還是排除了立法院的職員工我要求要納入而我也支持立法院要自行來克責自我的自律來訂定特查辦法"},{"start":757.711,"end":761.6,"text":"我會支持 我會努力 希望人事總署也更正向"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:22:31.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:22:36.121000+08:00","text":"今天阿川主持，是不是多寬限一點時間？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:22:36.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:22:37.902000+08:00","text":"因為有39案。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:22:38.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:22:47.433000+08:00","text":"有請李俊俋秘書長、請劉建忻秘書長，還有人事長跟施部長都一起好了，等一下就不用……不好意思。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-12T10:22:49.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:22:50.116000+08:00","text":"好，請4位一起。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:22:51.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:22:52.267000+08:00","text":"大家早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:22:53.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:23:11.716000+08:00","text":"推動政策不應有空窗期，雖然是凍結，但凍結其實就是造成我們窒礙難行，到現在，今天已經是5月12號了，我們對於很多業務，事實上已經有五個月半的時間沒有辦法如常運作。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:23:13.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:23:18.422000+08:00","text":"我特別也要說，在野黨委員說：送來、送來，解凍案送來就解凍了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:23:19.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:23:25.629000+08:00","text":"事實上現在各個委員會在排審的加總起來只不過是11%的凍結數，因為多數、高達89%的凍結數必須送院會或者是設下更複雜的解凍門檻。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:23:36.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:23:46.109000+08:00","text":"所以即便我們今天在這裡快速地排案，這不過只是一小小部分的解凍案，但我們還是希望能夠順利通過。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:23:49.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:24:10.513000+08:00","text":"監察院李秘書長先來，你們針對總預算被惡凍、惡刪提出了釋憲，事實上不只是惡刪構成你們窒礙難行，我這段時間去研究了包括蔡茂寅教授、黃世鑫教授、徐仁輝教授，他們都提出了憲政的新觀點。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:24:10.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:24:34.346000+08:00","text":"他們主張，凍結預算也是逾越憲法賦予立法院之預算審議權；「以凍代刪」是立法權侵犯行政權，立法院就成了太上院；甚至徐仁輝教授說，凍結預算就是毀損預算契約，這些都違反了大法官264、391、520號解釋。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:24:34.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:24:42.550000+08:00","text":"您可不可以再具體針對監察院提出的釋憲案，我想除了刪減預算，應當也還有凍結預算的部分，您簡單說明一下？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:24:44.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:24:51.132000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，監察院有關憲法訴訟案，我們已經在3月24號正式提出。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:24:51.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:11.527000+08:00","text":"我們認為這一次立法院刪減預算違反大法官解釋的釋字391、585、613、632，特別是632號所謂憲政機關的忠誠義務，就是不能因為你的作為或不作為造成其他憲政機關無法運作。是。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:12.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:22.696000+08:00","text":"我們認為立法院所做的這個預算審查確實有這樣的效果，所以監察院別無選擇，我們只能提出憲法訴訟。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:22.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:29.432000+08:00","text":"你們確實是受災程度No.1，98%！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:31.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:38.144000+08:00","text":"我非常好奇，今天雖然兩案大概1,036萬解凍，但是無助於你們98%被刪凍的部分。","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:40.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:42.289000+08:00","text":"這段時間你們監察院能夠做什麼？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:42.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:52.879000+08:00","text":"是，我跟吳委員報告一下，今天的解凍案我們其實只有兩案，一個是財申處印廉政專刊的錢468萬。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:52.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:54.300000+08:00","text":"對，就是公務人員財產申報。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:54.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:55.301000+08:00","text":"對，公務人員財產申報。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:55.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:58.044000+08:00","text":"另外是所謂的營建工程，就是我們……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:58.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:25:59.065000+08:00","text":"古蹟的維護。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:25:59.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:26:00.627000+08:00","text":"古蹟維護，我們改管線。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:26:01.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:26:05.769000+08:00","text":"改管線，我們去年省了15萬度，所以我們還是希望它會通過。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:26:06.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:26:24.736000+08:00","text":"其他被刪除的部分其實是我們非常困擾的，所以現在包括我們所有的會議，今年還有一個世界性的年會，我們現在還在追這個預算到底要從何而來，因為這是18個會員國參加，那我們也希望這些預算能夠趕快把它追回來。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:26:24.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:26:25.597000+08:00","text":"APOR年會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:26:26.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:26:30.482000+08:00","text":"APOR年會，對，那個是750萬。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:26:30.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:26:40.575000+08:00","text":"所以我們整個業務，如果吳委員看到我手上這張表會很清楚，我們議事業務被刪了100%、調查、巡察被刪了100%、一般行政刪了100%。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:26:40.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:26:43.057000+08:00","text":"大家就都沒事做了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:26:43.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:26:53.202000+08:00","text":"國家人權部分刪了97%，我們唯一留下來的是財產申報，但是財產申報所需要用的系統，因為放在一般行政裡面，也被全數刪除。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:26:54.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:01.386000+08:00","text":"所以我們實在非常辛苦，現在所有的調查還有公務車都是靠我們委員自己支撐。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:01.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:02.806000+08:00","text":"那你現在每天隨身攜帶衛生紙嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:02.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:03.467000+08:00","text":"我衛生紙都擺在辦公室裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:08.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:14.708000+08:00","text":"非常地辛苦，希望能夠順利解凍，不過監察院只解凍了1,036萬，其他……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:14.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:20.051000+08:00","text":"我們堅持的是，要做到憲法賦予我們的責任，還有陽光四法交代我們的任務，我們必須要做到。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:20.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:23.634000+08:00","text":"其他的，你們98%的刪減，我看根本就「袂振袂動」，God bless you！","quality":0.448},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:23.634000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:25.335000+08:00","text":"只能這樣說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:25.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:27.876000+08:00","text":"我們很遺憾，但我們還是盡力爭取。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:28.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:34.201000+08:00","text":"這就是立法院成了太上院來癱瘓其他的憲法機關──監察院。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:34.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:45.869000+08:00","text":"我們認為每個憲政機關都有它的功能，在上會期用職權行使法讓我們調查權不能動，我們只好訴訟，訴訟我們也贏了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:46.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:27:52.394000+08:00","text":"第二會期用預算讓監察院不能動，那我們希望也是透過憲法訴訟的部分來爭取我們的權益。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:27:54.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:28:02.062000+08:00","text":"好，監察院是開第一槍，針對總預算提出釋憲，這一週民進黨團也會跟進。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:28:02.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:28:03.644000+08:00","text":"李秘書長請回。謝謝。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:28:04.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:28:18.076000+08:00","text":"接下來是考試院，我先聚焦，你們被凍結的很大一筆，主要在野黨委員是說要反霸凌，可是卻凍相關可以做的霸凌部分的預算。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:28:18.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:28:28.522000+08:00","text":"第二個是軍公教退撫基金改進方案，但非常遺憾，警察人員人事條例被惡修通過了，年改走回頭路。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:28:31.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:28:37.309000+08:00","text":"我想問一下，你們已經送出了公務人員保障法、考績法還有安衛辦法嘛？是。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:28:38.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:28:44.414000+08:00","text":"如果沒有被凍結預算，你們就會pending、擺爛嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:28:44.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:28:47.416000+08:00","text":"還是原本你們就會負責任地把它送出來？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:28:47.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:28:58.303000+08:00","text":"我記得還沒審預算之前，我就一直在關心，你們一開始就保證再保證，這是重要的事情，反霸凌制度相關修法你們就會做。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:28:59.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:02.885000+08:00","text":"在野黨委員為什麼要用反霸凌的名義來凍你們的預算？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:02.885000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:06.085000+08:00","text":"秘書長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:06.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:10.907000+08:00","text":"我們周宏憲院長在立法院人事同意權的時候，被質詢到相關的議題，包含安衛辦法……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:10.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:11.947000+08:00","text":"就已經承諾了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:12.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:26.130000+08:00","text":"對，那時候大家就很關切霸凌法制化的問題，我們來立法院備詢的時候也都有做相關的承諾，當時我們抓的進度就是大概半年，在這個會期5月上旬送過來。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:26.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:28.631000+08:00","text":"所以我們在5月1號院會通過之後，上禮拜二……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:29.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:31.011000+08:00","text":"5月6號送進來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:31.011000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:32.011000+08:00","text":"5月6日已經送到立法院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:31.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:37.412000+08:00","text":"換言之，在野黨委員去凍這筆預算毫無道理，因為原本你們的timetable就是要做嘛！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:38.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:29:56.596000+08:00","text":"立法委員的監督可以用各種方法，包括本席，這張PPT是我早就在業務報告的時候質詢你們的，我也早就追蹤到你們會在這個會期送出，我們希望下個會期完成修法，甚至如果這個會期有延會的話，也許更快也不一定。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:29:58.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:14.047000+08:00","text":"現在我問一下施部長，這跟人事總處一起的，思瑤一直在催生的心理假，這也是落實賴總統的心理健康相關政策，我們研議了請假辦法，什麼時候可以上路？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:14.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:18.951000+08:00","text":"這個比增加4+1天假我認為更重要。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:20.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:35.198000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，總處那邊完整地研議完以後就送到我們這邊，我們現在正在進行預告，預告完以後我們就會送到考試院做最後的確認，考試院確認以後再跟行政院會銜，我想應該不會太慢。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:35.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:38.661000+08:00","text":"所以現在部送到院，考試院要快一點喔！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:38.661000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:39.661000+08:00","text":"我們還沒有送去，快送了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:38.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:42.164000+08:00","text":"然後考試院再送到行政院會銜。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:42.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:45.186000+08:00","text":"我想蘇人事長，你們都同意吧？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:45.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:53.395000+08:00","text":"兩位都是主事者，明年上路公務體系的心理假，是不是可以期待、是不是Yes？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:54.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:55.938000+08:00","text":"一定是的、肯定是的。好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:56.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:30:57.500000+08:00","text":"很好，謝謝你們的答案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:30:57.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:31:08.767000+08:00","text":"我不需要凍結預算，我也可以催生公務人員的心理假，因為我可以透過我鍥而不捨地監督各項會議而達到這個政策的目的。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:31:10.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:31:38.429000+08:00","text":"還有一件事情我要提醒，就退撫基金我多次說，我們需要做到ESG，退撫基金對於投資碳足跡居然是所有當中高的，包括勞保基金、新制勞退、舊制勞退、郵政儲金等投資金額裡頭，你們投資碳足跡是最高的。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:31:39.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:31:43.270000+08:00","text":"用國家的退撫基金來投資高碳產業，我們一定要檢討。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:31:45.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:32:05.350000+08:00","text":"所以氣候相關財務揭露（TCFD）國內各金控已經上路了，綠色金融3.0也納入了，退撫基金要跟上，我質詢過，今天有一筆解凍案就是跟退撫基金的管理相關，部長，可不可以正面地告訴我，你們這方面已經在努力跟上了？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-05-12T10:32:06.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:32:19.518000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們已經在努力，而且我們已經要正式出版一個報告，也要召開一個會議，未來我們的投資策略組合裡面就會把這個議題也一併納進去，也謝謝委員一直在關心這個議題。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:32:19.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:32:30.424000+08:00","text":"這個比今天在野黨委員凍結你們退撫基金，要你們針對投資的決策會議紀錄公開還重要的多，我希望你們能夠趕快跟上。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:32:30.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:32:52.571000+08:00","text":"我最後一個題目再占用一分鐘，請人事長，人事長最近大家都在關心國安漏洞，針對公務體系的一般忠誠查核或是特查，一般查核是你們進行，特查是調查局。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:32:53.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:33:14.281000+08:00","text":"最近我們都針對國會成為國安漏洞的死角，那天我們在質詢調查局，他們希望能夠針對現在1,328個特查的職位要擴充到2,336個，但是還是沒有納入立法院的職員工，您的看法呢？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-05-12T10:33:15.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:33:19.602000+08:00","text":"我想這個部分還是要尊重立法院內部的一個規範。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:33:19.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:33:26.423000+08:00","text":"您也支持如果立法院訂定自己的特查辦法，後續你們跟調查局分工上，大家來協力進行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-05-12T10:33:27.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:33:39.249000+08:00","text":"如果是立法院通過的話，我想特查這部分就是調查局，他一定會按照整個規定去執行，需要的人力缺口，我們會給予協助。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:33:39.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:33:58.287000+08:00","text":"站在您是督導、管理所有公務體系人員的大家長，您認為立法院的職員工現在被排除在特查之外，立法院的職員工接觸機密的機會非常高，您認不認為來督促立法院訂定特查辦法？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-05-12T10:33:59.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:34:01.791000+08:00","text":"基本上，我們還是要尊重立法院的決定。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:34:02.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:34:03.013000+08:00","text":"你支不支持嘛？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:34:03.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:34:05.556000+08:00","text":"否則國安漏洞就在立法院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-05-12T10:34:06.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:34:14.983000+08:00","text":"我不反對這個啊，委員也講得很清楚，因為在立法院接觸到機敏資料的場合還有人員也非常多。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:34:15.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:34:22.206000+08:00","text":"我希望人事長，您要更積極正面一點，不能因為特查辦法是調查局在進行，你就好像無關緊要。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:34:24.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-12T10:35:01.580000+08:00","text":"我要說的是所有公務體系同仁都適用於公務人員任用法、公務人員服務法，他適用的法規是一致的，沒有道理只有立法院的職員工與聞機密這麼高，他們卻長期被排除，所以我具體要求調查局已經從1,328個特查職位要擴充到2,336個，但是還是排除了立法院的職員工，我要求要納入，而我也支持立法院要自行課責自我的自律來訂定特查辦法，我會支持、我會努力，希望人事總處也更正向。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-05-12T10:35:02.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:35:03.794286+08:00","text":"我們也會支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-05-12T10:35:04.094286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:35:06.665714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，那就質詢到這。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇人事長俊榮","start":"2025-05-12T10:35:06.965714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:35:08.108571+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2025-05-12T10:35:08.408571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:35:10.980000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳思瑤委員質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2025-05-12T10:35:11.280000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-12T10:35:14.422857+08:00","text":"接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時22分）今天阿川主持，是不是多寬限一點時間？因為有39案。"],["主席：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：有請李俊俋秘書長、請劉建忻秘書長，還有人事長跟施部長都一起好了，等一下就不用……不好意思。"],["主席：好，請4位一起。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家早安。推動政策不應有空窗期，雖然是凍結，但凍結其實就是造成我們窒礙難行，到現在，今天已經是5月12號了，我們對於很多業務，事實上已經有五個月半的時間沒有辦法如常運作。我特別也要說，在野黨委員說：送來、送來，解凍案送來就解凍了。事實上現在各個委員會在排審的加總起來只不過是11%的凍結數，因為多數、高達89%的凍結數必須送院會或者是設下更複雜的解凍門檻。所以即便我們今天在這裡快速地排案，這不過只是一小小部分的解凍案，但我們還是希望能夠順利通過。","監察院李秘書長先來，你們針對總預算被惡凍、惡刪提出了釋憲，事實上不只是惡刪構成你們窒礙難行，我這段時間去研究了包括蔡茂寅教授、黃世鑫教授、徐仁輝教授，他們都提出了憲政的新觀點。他們主張，凍結預算也是逾越憲法賦予立法院之預算審議權；「以凍代刪」是立法權侵犯行政權，立法院就成了太上院；甚至徐仁輝教授說，凍結預算就是毀損預算契約，這些都違反了大法官264、391、520號解釋。您可不可以再具體針對監察院提出的釋憲案，我想除了刪減預算，應當也還有凍結預算的部分，您簡單說明一下？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟委員報告，監察院有關憲法訴訟案，我們已經在3月24號正式提出。我們認為這一次立法院刪減預算違反大法官解釋的釋字391、585、613、632，特別是632號所謂憲政機關的忠誠義務，就是不能因為你的作為或不作為造成其他憲政機關無法運作。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們認為立法院所做的這個預算審查確實有這樣的效果，所以監察院別無選擇，我們只能提出憲法訴訟。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們確實是受災程度No.1，98%！我非常好奇，今天雖然兩案大概1,036萬解凍，但是無助於你們98%被刪凍的部分。這段時間你們監察院能夠做什麼？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，我跟吳委員報告一下，今天的解凍案我們其實只有兩案，一個是財申處印廉政專刊的錢468萬。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，就是公務人員財產申報。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，公務人員財產申報。另外是所謂的營建工程，就是我們……"],["吳委員思瑤：古蹟的維護。"],["李秘書長俊俋：古蹟維護，我們改管線。改管線，我們去年省了15萬度，所以我們還是希望它會通過。","其他被刪除的部分其實是我們非常困擾的，所以現在包括我們所有的會議，今年還有一個世界性的年會，我們現在還在追這個預算到底要從何而來，因為這是18個會員國參加，那我們也希望這些預算能夠趕快把它追回來。"],["吳委員思瑤：APOR年會。"],["李秘書長俊俋：APOR年會，對，那個是750萬。所以我們整個業務，如果吳委員看到我手上這張表會很清楚，我們議事業務被刪了100%、調查、巡察被刪了100%、一般行政刪了100%。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家就都沒事做了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：國家人權部分刪了97%，我們唯一留下來的是財產申報，但是財產申報所需要用的系統，因為放在一般行政裡面，也被全數刪除。所以我們實在非常辛苦，現在所有的調查還有公務車都是靠我們委員自己支撐。"],["吳委員思瑤：那你現在每天隨身攜帶衛生紙嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我衛生紙都擺在辦公室裡。"],["吳委員思瑤：非常地辛苦，希望能夠順利解凍，不過監察院只解凍了1,036萬，其他……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們堅持的是，要做到憲法賦予我們的責任，還有陽光四法交代我們的任務，我們必須要做到。"],["吳委員思瑤：其他的，你們98%的刪減，我看根本就「袂振袂動」，God bless you！只能這樣說。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們很遺憾，但我們還是盡力爭取。"],["吳委員思瑤：這就是立法院成了太上院來癱瘓其他的憲法機關──監察院。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們認為每個憲政機關都有它的功能，在上會期用職權行使法讓我們調查權不能動，我們只好訴訟，訴訟我們也贏了。第二會期用預算讓監察院不能動，那我們希望也是透過憲法訴訟的部分來爭取我們的權益。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，監察院是開第一槍，針對總預算提出釋憲，這一週民進黨團也會跟進。李秘書長請回。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：接下來是考試院，我先聚焦，你們被凍結的很大一筆，主要在野黨委員是說要反霸凌，可是卻凍相關可以做的霸凌部分的預算。第二個是軍公教退撫基金改進方案，但非常遺憾，警察人員人事條例被惡修通過了，年改走回頭路。","我想問一下，你們已經送出了公務人員保障法、考績法還有安衛辦法嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果沒有被凍結預算，你們就會pending、擺爛嗎？還是原本你們就會負責任地把它送出來？我記得還沒審預算之前，我就一直在關心，你們一開始就保證再保證，這是重要的事情，反霸凌制度相關修法你們就會做。在野黨委員為什麼要用反霸凌的名義來凍你們的預算？秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們周宏憲院長在立法院人事同意權的時候，被質詢到相關的議題，包含安衛辦法……"],["吳委員思瑤：就已經承諾了嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，那時候大家就很關切霸凌法制化的問題，我們來立法院備詢的時候也都有做相關的承諾，當時我們抓的進度就是大概半年，在這個會期5月上旬送過來。所以我們在5月1號院會通過之後，上禮拜二……"],["吳委員思瑤：5月6號送進來。"],["劉秘書長建忻：5月6日已經送到立法院。"],["吳委員思瑤：換言之，在野黨委員去凍這筆預算毫無道理，因為原本你們的timetable就是要做嘛！立法委員的監督可以用各種方法，包括本席，這張PPT是我早就在業務報告的時候質詢你們的，我也早就追蹤到你們會在這個會期送出，我們希望下個會期完成修法，甚至如果這個會期有延會的話，也許更快也不一定。","現在我問一下施部長，這跟人事總處一起的，思瑤一直在催生的心理假，這也是落實賴總統的心理健康相關政策，我們研議了請假辦法，什麼時候可以上路？這個比增加4+1天假我認為更重要。"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，總處那邊完整地研議完以後就送到我們這邊，我們現在正在進行預告，預告完以後我們就會送到考試院做最後的確認，考試院確認以後再跟行政院會銜，我想應該不會太慢。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以現在部送到院，考試院要快一點喔！"],["施部長能傑：我們還沒有送去，快送了……"],["吳委員思瑤：然後考試院再送到行政院會銜。我想蘇人事長，你們都同意吧？兩位都是主事者，明年上路公務體系的心理假，是不是可以期待、是不是Yes？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定是的、肯定是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：好！很好，謝謝你們的答案。我不需要凍結預算，我也可以催生公務人員的心理假，因為我可以透過我鍥而不捨地監督各項會議而達到這個政策的目的。","還有一件事情我要提醒，就退撫基金我多次說，我們需要做到ESG，退撫基金對於投資碳足跡居然是所有當中高的，包括勞保基金、新制勞退、舊制勞退、郵政儲金等投資金額裡頭，你們投資碳足跡是最高的。用國家的退撫基金來投資高碳產業，我們一定要檢討。所以氣候相關財務揭露（TCFD）國內各金控已經上路了，綠色金融3.0也納入了，退撫基金要跟上，我質詢過，今天有一筆解凍案就是跟退撫基金的管理相關，部長，可不可以正面地告訴我，你們這方面已經在努力跟上了？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我們已經在努力，而且我們已經要正式出版一個報告，也要召開一個會議，未來我們的投資策略組合裡面就會把這個議題也一併納進去，也謝謝委員一直在關心這個議題。"],["吳委員思瑤：這個比今天在野黨委員凍結你們退撫基金，要你們針對投資的決策會議紀錄公開還重要的多，我希望你們能夠趕快跟上。","我最後一個題目再占用一分鐘，請人事長，人事長最近大家都在關心國安漏洞，針對公務體系的一般忠誠查核或是特查，一般查核是你們進行，特查是調查局。最近我們都針對國會成為國安漏洞的死角，那天我們在質詢調查局，他們希望能夠針對現在1,328個特查的職位要擴充到2,336個，但是還是沒有納入立法院的職員工，您的看法呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想這個部分還是要尊重立法院內部的一個規範。"],["吳委員思瑤：您也支持如果立法院訂定自己的特查辦法，後續你們跟調查局分工上，大家來協力進行？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果是立法院通過的話，我想特查這部分就是調查局，他一定會按照整個規定去執行，需要的人力缺口，我們會給予協助。"],["吳委員思瑤：站在您是督導、管理所有公務體系人員的大家長，您認為立法院的職員工現在被排除在特查之外，立法院的職員工接觸機密的機會非常高，您認不認為來督促立法院訂定特查辦法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上，我們還是要尊重立法院的決定。"],["吳委員思瑤：你支不支持嘛？否則國安漏洞就在立法院。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不反對這個啊，委員也講得很清楚，因為在立法院接觸到機敏資料的場合還有人員也非常多。"],["吳委員思瑤：我希望人事長，您要更積極正面一點，不能因為特查辦法是調查局在進行，你就好像無關緊要。我要說的是所有公務體系同仁都適用於公務人員任用法、公務人員服務法，他適用的法規是一致的，沒有道理只有立法院的職員工與聞機密這麼高，他們卻長期被排除，所以我具體要求調查局已經從1,328個特查職位要擴充到2,336個，但是還是排除了立法院的職員工，我要求要納入，而我也支持立法院要自行課責自我的自律來訂定特查辦法，我會支持、我會努力，希望人事總處也更正向。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們也會支持。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝，那就質詢到這。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：謝謝吳思瑤委員質詢。","接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共 1案；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共7案；三、審查及處理114年度中央\n政府總預算關於考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於法\n務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共23案","agenda_id":"1144802_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}