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感謝周委喔 妳要先請我們那個 何安慧主委好 有請沈主委"},{"start":17.584,"end":44.286,"text":"主委午安辛苦了我想我們非核家園不到五天就有政黨急推重啟核電廠的公投而且這個公投提案的主文如同我昨天所說的明明是重啟他故意寫成繼續運轉用一個灰色地帶讓大家感覺到他只是演繹那主委確定這應該是重啟不是演繹嗎沒錯吧"},{"start":46.698,"end":49.521,"text":"法規是寫在繼續運轉,事實上它的語譽上是要繼續運轉20年"},{"start":66.066,"end":85.734,"text":"對 但是概念上河山廠已經現在講的是河山廠已經停止了嘛所以原意是說是在繼續運轉的情況下事前五年為什麼就提出申請那它已經是在非核家園之後要繼續運轉概念上就是重啟嘛這樣有錯嗎"},{"start":96.577,"end":109.543,"text":"因為我之前也一直問何安慧你們有沒有在關注俄烏戰爭的經驗中何設是容易成為戰爭中的攻擊目標那根據我自己看到的還有你們給我的資料"},{"start":110.163,"end":131.209,"text":"那俄乌战争之后,那其实国际原子能总署IAEA它不止一次,它去年4月就发声明说我们正危险地接近核事故,因为俄罗斯不只是攻击而且控制了欧洲最大的核电厂,在乌克兰的扎波罗勒核电厂"},{"start":132.85,"end":154.492,"text":"國際原子能總署還特別提出說武裝衝突中核電廠要有所謂的核安必須要有七大支柱場外電源供給不中斷的供應鏈輻射監測系統跟緊急應變溝通完整設施安全跟安保系統操作人員要能夠如常履行職責"},{"start":156.073,"end":181.642,"text":"然後IAEA說烏克蘭的每一項支柱都受到損害這當然就是說跟俄羅斯不顧相關的公約有關那俄羅斯會這樣做我想中共有沒有比俄羅斯友善我是一個很大的問號而且俄羅斯跟烏克蘭在陸地上是接著的那中共跟我們中間有一個台灣海峽"},{"start":183.624,"end":192.732,"text":"請問主委根據這個烏克蘭的經驗核電廠若遭遇戰爭的時候有什麼國安風險主委可以簡單告訴我們嗎"},{"start":197.955,"end":220.453,"text":"我們判斷核電廠受直接攻擊的機率不高不高是多高?10%高叫做高還是不高?應該是很低,因為國際公約也...那俄羅斯為什麼會這樣子對待烏克蘭的核電廠?如果不高的話,俄羅斯這個是百分之多少?因為烏克蘭沒有..."},{"start":222.382,"end":231.405,"text":"烏克蘭的核安做得沒有台灣好嗎?你是要這樣講嗎?要我們信任台灣的核安會嗎?不是,我想說...核安會有武裝部隊嗎?沒有嗎?就是剛剛的這七個國際原子能總署後來還去駐烏克蘭的那個場耶我們沒有辦法,我們在IAEA的地位裡面是什麼?"},{"start":247.276,"end":257.241,"text":"他說這七大1234567可以問一下福島市這七大中的哪一個出問題你們應該知道吧福島事件"},{"start":258.537,"end":265.963,"text":"跟委員報告輔導它是一個比較複雜不過就在這七個好了安全的七大支柱輔導是哪一個還是數個出問題它其實是比如說場外的電源失去對就是這個要有一個場外電源供給可以冷卻嘛那輔導事前有想過說有這種安全風險嗎它也會說不大甚至它說零對不對你說不大是多大"},{"start":285.506,"end":312.282,"text":"福島其實它在設計上它本來就有廠外電源對 設計上有了還是出問題嘛所以福島的核災就是告訴我們說你認為沒有問題的風險零的時候都可能有風險剛剛主委是說不大不大是說有對不對那我們現在在非核家園前核能佔我們的整體能源供應的百分之多少你們應該知道吧"},{"start":315.889,"end":324.376,"text":"現在是零嘛 之前是佔多少我們有必要為了這3%的能源去說全國放冒這麼大的風險嗎對不對這是一個理性的問題嘛那一旦就是說在戰爭時期如果跟烏克蘭一樣的話那請問河山廠那個輻射範圍會多少 主委可以告訴我們嗎"},{"start":344.591,"end":354.583,"text":"就如果電力要真的出了問題像福島一樣那輻射的安全範圍內會影響多少是影響到哪一個城市可不可以告訴我們"},{"start":356.394,"end":375.835,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個戰爭最大的威脅它來自於說它會攻擊核能電廠之後會造成核能廠大範圍的火災它並不會直接就導致於說會有輻射外勢依照目前國內我們在這一塊的一個應變方式我昨天還追問你們"},{"start":379.18,"end":391.647,"text":"場外電源出問題最後會怎麼樣你們告訴我說是場外電源如果失去的話依照目前國內的核電廠我們是有各種的電源那福島是不是曾經也有各種電源就是這裡面一個場外電源因為你需要外面的電源才能夠冷卻嘛福島它是一部一部它是多重的事故發生之後導致的"},{"start":405.274,"end":407.935,"text":"是 那我請教你啊你覺得中共跟俄羅斯比起來哪一個比較邪惡啊我想只要是戰爭我們都應該要避免是 那福島的事情就一個場外地緣攻擊都出問題了你可以告訴我說剛剛主委是說不大"},{"start":424.461,"end":446.226,"text":"我不知道我們的靈異警莊委聽了覺得不大是多少是我們能容忍的範圍內它是因為整個海嘯造成的所以它不是一個單一的一個場外電源失去的原因所以IEA這七項都是一個核能電廠要維持安全必要的項目的確札波羅在戰爭的狀態下這每一項都接受挑戰"},{"start":446.886,"end":453.853,"text":"每一項都被挑戰了尤其是三個外面主要的外部電源讓它冷卻的都曾經三條都中斷了對不對要不然你覺得IAEA有必要發聲明連我看到愛沙尼亞都發聲明譴責然後要求俄羅斯不能夠再不顧核安"},{"start":467.799,"end":486.223,"text":"因為這些國家都是在附近的那我們台灣呢 核安會都沒有給我們相關的訊息還要我跟你們問才有然後主委說不大我不知道不大是屬於多大那我其實就是一件事啦所謂的安全評估請把戰爭風險裡面的核安風險一起評估進去主委可以答應嗎我們就以烏克蘭俄烏戰爭作為就是說經驗值好不好"},{"start":498.855,"end":505.194,"text":"你不能想像中共會比俄羅斯友善嘛因為我們中間還有台灣海峽嘛"},{"start":507.109,"end":527.447,"text":"這方面我們就已經報告在裡面了因為我們已經要求分散式的多重水源與電源我知道你們現在都說就像福島曾經以為一切都沒問題啦你現在都有一關又一關最後還說可以人力水冷卻我都當面問過你們了我的意思是說人都有可能出問題嘛對不對"},{"start":529.589,"end":554.235,"text":"那就是你們剛剛就是避重就輕連輻射會到哪個城市都不願意告訴我們那我想這個部分對不只是屏東人高雄人連我們在場召委台南人都不能接受好不好就是因為後來你們問到連這個輻射都有可能到福建然後何安慧能跟我講說因為這樣子中共應該不會做這樣的事吧"},{"start":554.975,"end":569.905,"text":"你認為是這樣子嗎我沒有辦法接受這種不精確的答案報告給我們好不好 河安風險應該要包含最壞的狀況再來謝謝竹威請回 辛苦了我們請中研院副院長"},{"start":573.717,"end":597.003,"text":"委員好 副院長好 本來要問院長啦 但是因為院長很忙 所以就問副院長這個院士退場機制 我之前的預算就剛剛已經讓你們過關了 但是還是要追問因為就是民間 不是只有我 民間2019年你們的院士跟習近平站在一起 沒有保護香港城市大學的學生"},{"start":598.563,"end":624.633,"text":"2021年我們的院士協助中國政治打壓學生2021年我們的院士在美國涉及協助中國滲透被捕然後被調查所以我講院士一定要有不適任的在國外還有院士性騷性侵的所以我們目前已經有這種"},{"start":625.813,"end":644.903,"text":"所以問你們要怎麼處理然後呢因為你們這個我知道有一定的難度因為就是要涉及到院士所以我請你們一步一步來理解要針對五個民主國家怎麼去規範然後你們給我的報告法國 日本 義大利就兩三行就要打發我們這樣不對吧"},{"start":646.584,"end":658.989,"text":"那你們說你們是參考美國的NAS可是NAS那你們給我們的英文資料跟我看到的一樣可是你又沒有把它全文翻譯那以我跟我辦公室讀起來人家就是有一個評估委員會那當然就是說那你們宣稱分成"},{"start":662.99,"end":677.817,"text":"任職本院跟非任職本院你是說非任職本院譬如說這個在香港大學的要由那個機構去處理撤銷什麼那香港中大香港大學又不聽我們的他如果就聽習近平的那我們不就不能處理了"},{"start":678.857,"end":703.954,"text":"可不可以再次檢討那我要求很簡單30秒之內有外在威脅的民主國家譬如芬蘭他們怎麼處理這樣子的一個最高榮譽的院類似院士的制度我們可不可以找幾個讓我知道讓我們教文委員知道一下好不好因為我們的情況跟義大利法國畢竟不一樣嘛好我們會再做一些好你說要香港大學處理他又不聽你的他要處理嗎"},{"start":705.756,"end":724.189,"text":"好 對不對香港大學我們都參訪過很多老師都離開了到台灣到澳洲到英國去就是因為沒有學術言論自由了好不好好 那就多久之內可以給我三個月好嗎三個月 兩個月吧你們的研究能力這個不用三個月吧好 兩個月好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:42:06.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:42:07.159000+08:00","text":"感謝召委。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:42:08.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:42:09.949000+08:00","text":"先請核安會主委。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-21T12:42:10.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:42:11.856000+08:00","text":"有請陳主委。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:42:18.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:42:21.066000+08:00","text":"主委午安，辛苦了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:42:21.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:42:45.266000+08:00","text":"我想我們非核家園不到5天，就有政黨急推重啟核電廠的公投，而且這個公投提案的主文如同我昨天所說的，明明是重啟，但它故意寫成繼續運轉，用一個灰色地帶讓大家感覺到它只是延役，主委確定這應該是重啟而不是延役沒錯吧？","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-05-21T12:42:45.266000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:42:46.266000+08:00","text":"應該是重啟……","quality":0},{"speaker":"高組長斌","start":"2025-05-21T12:42:46.266000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:42:47.266000+08:00","text":"我跟委員說明，那個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:42:47.266000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:42:48.266000+08:00","text":"可以簡短回答我嗎？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高組長斌","start":"2025-05-21T12:42:47.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:42:50.501000+08:00","text":"法規是寫再繼續運轉，事實上它的語意上是要就是繼續運轉20年……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:43:07.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:43:07.887000+08:00","text":"對，但是概念上已經……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"高組長斌","start":"2025-05-21T12:43:07.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:43:09.567000+08:00","text":"但是概念上應該……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:43:09.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:43:14.729000+08:00","text":"核三廠已經……現在講的是核三廠，已經停止了嘛！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"高組長斌","start":"2025-05-21T12:43:14.729000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:43:15.770000+08:00","text":"執照到期。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:43:15.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:43:26.734000+08:00","text":"所以延役是說在繼續運轉的情況下，事前5年或什麼就提出申請，那它已經是在非核家園之後要繼續運轉，概念上就是重啟嘛，這樣有錯嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-05-21T12:43:26.734000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:43:32.255500+08:00","text":"應該是這樣。蛤？","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:43:32.255500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:43:37.777000+08:00","text":"就是重啟嘛！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:43:37.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:44:53.259000+08:00","text":"對，所以我這邊之前也一直問核安會有沒有在關注，俄烏戰爭的經驗中，核設施容易成為戰爭中的攻擊目標，根據我自己看到的還有你們給我的資料，俄烏戰爭之後，其實國際原子能總署IAEA不只一次，它去年4月就聲明說我們正危險地接近核事故，因為俄羅斯不只是攻擊，而且控制了歐洲最大的核電廠──烏克蘭的札波羅熱核電廠，國際原子能總署還特別提出，武裝衝突中，核電廠要有所謂的核安必須要有七大支柱，場外電源供給、不中斷的供應鏈、輻射監測系統跟緊急應變、溝通、完整設施、安全跟安保系統、操作人員要能夠如常履行職責，IAEA說烏克蘭的每一項支柱都受到損害，這當然跟俄羅斯不顧相關的公約有關，俄羅斯會這樣做，我想中共有沒有比俄羅斯友善？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:44:53.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:12.811000+08:00","text":"我是一個很大的問號，而且俄羅斯跟烏克蘭在陸地上是接著的，中共跟我們中間有個臺灣海峽，請問主委，根據烏克蘭的經驗，核電廠如果遭遇戰爭的時候，有什麼國安風險？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:12.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:13.732000+08:00","text":"主委可以簡單告訴我們嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:18.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:23.699000+08:00","text":"我們的判斷，核電廠受直接攻擊的機率不高。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:25.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:26.001000+08:00","text":"不高是多高？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:27.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:28.523000+08:00","text":"10%叫高還是不高？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:29.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:32.186000+08:00","text":"應該是很低，因為國際公約也……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:32.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:37.230000+08:00","text":"那俄羅斯為什麼這樣對待烏克蘭的核電廠？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:37.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:40.012000+08:00","text":"如果不高的話，俄羅斯這個是百分之多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:43.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:45.223000+08:00","text":"烏克蘭的核安做得沒有臺灣好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:45.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:47.003000+08:00","text":"你是要這樣講嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:47.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:49.464000+08:00","text":"要我們信任臺灣的核安會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:49.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:50.064000+08:00","text":"核安會有武裝部隊嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:50.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:50.104000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:45:50.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:45:52.405000+08:00","text":"就是剛剛的這7個，國際原子能總署後來還去駐烏克蘭的那個廠，我們沒辦法，我們在IAEA的地位是什麼？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:09.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:16.060000+08:00","text":"它說這七大，福島是這七大哪一個出問題？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:16.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:16.760000+08:00","text":"你們應該知道吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃組長俊源","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:19.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:21.959000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，福島它是一個比較複雜，不過就……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:22.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:23.461000+08:00","text":"我們就這七個安全的七大支柱，福島是哪一個還是數個出問題？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"黃組長俊源","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:23.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:23.721000+08:00","text":"它其實是比如場外的電源失去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:23.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:24.161000+08:00","text":"對，就是要有一個場外電源供給，可以冷卻嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:24.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:25.382000+08:00","text":"福島事前有想過會有這種安全風險嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃組長俊源","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:25.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:26.382000+08:00","text":"其實有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:25.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:26.603000+08:00","text":"它也會說不大，甚至它說零對不對！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:26.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:26.943000+08:00","text":"你說不大是多大？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃組長俊源","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:46.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:49.908000+08:00","text":"福島其實在設計上本來就有場外電源。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:50.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:46:52.309000+08:00","text":"對，設計上有了還是出問題嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:46:52.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:04.196000+08:00","text":"所以福島的核災就是告訴我們，你認為沒有問題的、風險零的都可能有風險，剛剛主委是說不大，不大是說有，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:04.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:12.121000+08:00","text":"我們現在非核家園前核能占我們能源供應的百分比是多少？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:12.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:13.262000+08:00","text":"你們應該知道吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:16.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:18.431000+08:00","text":"現在是零，之前占多少？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:18.431000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:19.431000+08:00","text":"517之前大概3%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:18.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:20.732000+08:00","text":"我們有必要為了3%的能源讓全國冒這麼大的風險嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:21.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:24.295000+08:00","text":"這是一個理性的問題，一旦在戰爭時期，如果跟烏克蘭一樣的話，請問，核三廠輻射範圍會多少？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:24.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:25.376000+08:00","text":"主委可以告訴我們嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:45.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:52.660000+08:00","text":"如果電力真的出了問題，像福島一樣，輻射的安全範圍會影響多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:53.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:47:55.583000+08:00","text":"是影響到哪一個城市，可不可以告訴我們？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃組長俊源","start":"2025-05-21T12:47:58.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:48:15.733000+08:00","text":"其實戰爭最大的威脅來自於它攻擊核能電廠之後會造成大範圍的火災，它並不會直接就導致有輻射外洩，依照目前國內我們在這一塊的應變方式……","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:48:16.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:48:23.182000+08:00","text":"我昨天還追問你們場外電源出問題最後會怎麼樣，你們告訴我說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃組長俊源","start":"2025-05-21T12:48:23.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:48:27.624000+08:00","text":"場外電源如果失去的話，依照目前國內的核電廠，我們是有各種的電源。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:48:27.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:48:30.666000+08:00","text":"福島是不是曾經也有各種的電源？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:48:30.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:48:31.626000+08:00","text":"因為你需要外面的電源才能夠冷卻，烏克蘭是不是有3個外部電源，最後都被破壞？","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"黃組長俊源","start":"2025-05-21T12:48:31.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:48:32.507000+08:00","text":"福島是多重的事故發生之後導致。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:48:46.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:48:47.174000+08:00","text":"你覺得中共跟俄羅斯比起來，哪一個比較邪惡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃組長俊源","start":"2025-05-21T12:48:47.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:48:47.775000+08:00","text":"我想只要是戰爭，我們都應該要避免，核電廠遭遇戰爭的時候，我們會做好相關的因應。","quality":0.457},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:48:47.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:49:10.602000+08:00","text":"就一個場外電源供給都出問題了，剛剛主委說不大，我不知道林宜瑾召委聽了覺得不大是多少，是我們能容忍的範圍內？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"黃組長俊源","start":"2025-05-21T12:49:10.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:49:27.226000+08:00","text":"它是因為海嘯造成的，所以不是一個單一的場外電源失去，因為這七項都是核能電廠要維持安全必要的項目，的確，札波羅熱在戰爭的狀態下，每一項都接受挑戰。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:49:27.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:49:33.031000+08:00","text":"每一項都被挑戰了，尤其是3個主要的外部電源，讓它冷卻的3條都中斷了，要不然你覺得IAEA有必要發聲明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:49:33.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:49:59.801000+08:00","text":"我看到連愛沙尼亞都發聲明譴責，要求俄羅斯不能再不顧核安，因為這些國家都在附近，我們臺灣核安會都沒有給我們相關的訊息，還要我跟你們問才有，然後主委說不大，我不知道不大是屬於多大。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:50:00.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:50:06.022000+08:00","text":"其實就是一件事，所謂的安全評估請把戰爭風險裡面的核安風險一起評估進去，主委可以答應嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:50:06.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:50:07.203000+08:00","text":"我們就以俄烏戰爭作為經驗值，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:50:19.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:50:22.964000+08:00","text":"你不能想像中共會比俄羅斯友善嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:50:24.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:50:26.174000+08:00","text":"因為我們中間還有臺灣海峽。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主任委員明真","start":"2025-05-21T12:50:28.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:50:35.136000+08:00","text":"這方面已經包括在裡面了，因為我們核電廠已經要求要有分散型的多重水源與電源的確保。","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:50:36.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:50:48.447000+08:00","text":"我知道你們現在都這樣說，就像福島也曾經以為一切都沒問題，你現在都有一關又一關，最後還說可以人力冷卻，我都當面問過你們了，我的意思是說，人都有可能出問題，對不對！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:50:52.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:51:05.333000+08:00","text":"你們剛剛都是避重就輕，連輻射會到哪個城市都不願意告訴我們，我想這個部分不只是屏東人、高雄人，連我們在場召委臺南人都不能接受，好不好！","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:51:06.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:51:15.215000+08:00","text":"因為後來問到連輻射都有可能到福建，核安會的人跟我講因為這樣所以中共應該不會做這樣的事吧！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:51:15.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:51:17.696000+08:00","text":"你認為是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:51:17.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:51:21.979000+08:00","text":"我沒有辦法接受這種不精確的答案，報告給我們好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:51:22.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:51:26.782000+08:00","text":"核安風險應該要包含最壞的狀況，謝謝，主委請回。","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:51:26.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:51:30.905000+08:00","text":"再來請中研院副院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周副院長美吟","start":"2025-05-21T12:51:34.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:51:35.257000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:51:35.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:51:40.999000+08:00","text":"副院長好，本來要問院長，但是院長很忙，所以就問副院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:51:40.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:52:15.449000+08:00","text":"這個院士退場機制，之前的預算剛剛已經讓你們過關了，但我還是要追問，因為這不是只有我，還有民間反應，2019年你們的院士跟習近平站在一起，沒有保護香港城市大學的學生；2021年我們的院士協助中國政治打壓學生；2021年我們的院士在美國涉及協助中國滲透被捕、被調查。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:52:16.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:52:45.883000+08:00","text":"所以我講院士一定要有不適任的退場機制，在國外還有院士性騷、性侵的，所以我們目前已經有這種，問你們要怎麼處理，我知道有一定的難度，因為涉及到院士，所以我請你們一步一步來理解，要針對5個民主國家怎麼去規範，你們給我的報告，法國、日本、義大利就兩、三行打發我們，這樣不對吧！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:52:47.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:53:18.797000+08:00","text":"你們說你們是參考美國的NAS，可是你們給我們的英文資料跟我看到的一樣，可是你又沒有把它全文翻譯，以我跟我辦公室讀起來，人家就是有一個評估委員會，然後你們宣稱分成任職本院跟非任職本院，也就是說，非任職本院例如像這個在香港大學的，要由那個機構去處理撤銷什麼，中大、香港大學又不聽我們的，它如果就聽習近平的，那我們不就不能處理了？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:53:19.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:53:36.068000+08:00","text":"所以可不可以再次檢討，我的要求很簡單，有外在威脅的民主國家，例如芬蘭，它們怎麼處理這樣最高榮譽類似的院士制度，我們可不可以找幾個讓我們教文委員會知道一下？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:53:36.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:53:36.388000+08:00","text":"好不好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:53:36.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:53:39.430000+08:00","text":"因為我們的情況跟義大利、法國畢竟不一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"周副院長美吟","start":"2025-05-21T12:53:40.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:53:41.411000+08:00","text":"好，我們會再做一些研究。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:53:41.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:53:44.954000+08:00","text":"你說要香港大學處理，它又不聽你的，它要處理嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:53:47.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:53:54.362000+08:00","text":"香港大學我們都參訪過，很多老師都離開了，到臺灣、到澳洲、到英國去，就是因為沒有學術、言論自由了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:53:56.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:53:57.424000+08:00","text":"多久時間可以給我？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"曾處長國祥","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:00.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:01.126000+08:00","text":"3個月好不好？3個月？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:01.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:01.867000+08:00","text":"2個月吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:02.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:03.988000+08:00","text":"你們的研究能力不用3個月吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:04.488000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:05.630857+08:00","text":"2個月，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:05.930857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:09.645143+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員，所有的官員請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:09.945143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:30.802286+08:00","text":"剛剛范雲委員提到兩個報告，一個是有關於核安、國安的相關報告，還有中研院要如何規範最高榮譽人員的制度，這是2個月，這個報告除了送給范雲委員，也一併送教文委員會，謝謝。","quality":0.068},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:31.102286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:35.102286+08:00","text":"請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:35.402286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:39.402286+08:00","text":"請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:39.702286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:43.702286+08:00","text":"請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:44.002286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:48.002286+08:00","text":"請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-21T12:54:48.302286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-21T12:54:56.302286+08:00","text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有林沛祥委員提出書面質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1127,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時42分）感謝召委。先請核安會主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["范委員雲：主委午安，辛苦了！我想我們非核家園不到5天，就有政黨急推重啟核電廠的公投，而且這個公投提案的主文如同我昨天所說的，明明是重啟，但它故意寫成繼續運轉，用一個灰色地帶讓大家感覺到它只是延役，主委確定這應該是重啟而不是延役沒錯吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：應該是重啟……"],["高組長斌：我跟委員說明，那個……"],["范委員雲：可以簡短回答我嗎？謝謝。"],["高組長斌：法規是寫再繼續運轉，事實上它的語意上是要就是繼續運轉20年……"],["范委員雲：對，但是概念上已經……"],["高組長斌：但是概念上應該……"],["范委員雲：核三廠已經……現在講的是核三廠，已經停止了嘛！"],["高組長斌：執照到期。"],["范委員雲：所以延役是說在繼續運轉的情況下，事前5年或什麼就提出申請，那它已經是在非核家園之後要繼續運轉，概念上就是重啟嘛，這樣有錯嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：應該是這樣。"],["范委員雲：蛤？就是重啟嘛！"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["范委員雲：對，所以我這邊之前也一直問核安會有沒有在關注，俄烏戰爭的經驗中，核設施容易成為戰爭中的攻擊目標，根據我自己看到的還有你們給我的資料，俄烏戰爭之後，其實國際原子能總署IAEA不只一次，它去年4月就聲明說我們正危險地接近核事故，因為俄羅斯不只是攻擊，而且控制了歐洲最大的核電廠──烏克蘭的札波羅熱核電廠，國際原子能總署還特別提出，武裝衝突中，核電廠要有所謂的核安必須要有七大支柱，場外電源供給、不中斷的供應鏈、輻射監測系統跟緊急應變、溝通、完整設施、安全跟安保系統、操作人員要能夠如常履行職責，IAEA說烏克蘭的每一項支柱都受到損害，這當然跟俄羅斯不顧相關的公約有關，俄羅斯會這樣做，我想中共有沒有比俄羅斯友善？我是一個很大的問號，而且俄羅斯跟烏克蘭在陸地上是接著的，中共跟我們中間有個臺灣海峽，請問主委，根據烏克蘭的經驗，核電廠如果遭遇戰爭的時候，有什麼國安風險？主委可以簡單告訴我們嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們的判斷，核電廠受直接攻擊的機率不高。"],["范委員雲：不高是多高？10%叫高還是不高？"],["陳主任委員明真：應該是很低，因為國際公約也……"],["范委員雲：那俄羅斯為什麼這樣對待烏克蘭的核電廠？如果不高的話，俄羅斯這個是百分之多少？烏克蘭的核安做得沒有臺灣好嗎？你是要這樣講嗎？要我們信任臺灣的核安會嗎？核安會有武裝部隊嗎？沒有嘛！就是剛剛的這7個，國際原子能總署後來還去駐烏克蘭的那個廠，我們沒辦法，我們在IAEA的地位是什麼？它說這七大，福島是這七大哪一個出問題？你們應該知道吧！"],["黃組長俊源：跟委員報告，福島它是一個比較複雜，不過就……"],["范委員雲：我們就這七個安全的七大支柱，福島是哪一個還是數個出問題？"],["黃組長俊源：它其實是比如場外的電源失去。"],["范委員雲：對，就是要有一個場外電源供給，可以冷卻嘛！福島事前有想過會有這種安全風險嗎？"],["黃組長俊源：其實有。"],["范委員雲：它也會說不大，甚至它說零對不對！你說不大是多大？"],["黃組長俊源：福島其實在設計上本來就有場外電源。"],["范委員雲：對，設計上有了還是出問題嘛！所以福島的核災就是告訴我們，你認為沒有問題的、風險零的都可能有風險，剛剛主委是說不大，不大是說有，對不對？我們現在非核家園前核能占我們能源供應的百分比是多少？你們應該知道吧！現在是零，之前占多少？"],["陳主任委員明真：517之前大概3%。"],["范委員雲：我們有必要為了3%的能源讓全國冒這麼大的風險嗎？這是一個理性的問題，一旦在戰爭時期，如果跟烏克蘭一樣的話，請問，核三廠輻射範圍會多少？主委可以告訴我們嗎？如果電力真的出了問題，像福島一樣，輻射的安全範圍會影響多少？是影響到哪一個城市，可不可以告訴我們？"],["黃組長俊源：其實戰爭最大的威脅來自於它攻擊核能電廠之後會造成大範圍的火災，它並不會直接就導致有輻射外洩，依照目前國內我們在這一塊的應變方式……"],["范委員雲：我昨天還追問你們場外電源出問題最後會怎麼樣，你們告訴我說……"],["黃組長俊源：場外電源如果失去的話，依照目前國內的核電廠，我們是有各種的電源。"],["范委員雲：福島是不是曾經也有各種的電源？因為你需要外面的電源才能夠冷卻，烏克蘭是不是有3個外部電源，最後都被破壞？"],["黃組長俊源：福島是多重的事故發生之後導致。"],["范委員雲：你覺得中共跟俄羅斯比起來，哪一個比較邪惡？"],["黃組長俊源：我想只要是戰爭，我們都應該要避免，核電廠遭遇戰爭的時候，我們會做好相關的因應。"],["范委員雲：就一個場外電源供給都出問題了，剛剛主委說不大，我不知道林宜瑾召委聽了覺得不大是多少，是我們能容忍的範圍內？"],["黃組長俊源：它是因為海嘯造成的，所以不是一個單一的場外電源失去，因為這七項都是核能電廠要維持安全必要的項目，的確，札波羅熱在戰爭的狀態下，每一項都接受挑戰。"],["范委員雲：每一項都被挑戰了，尤其是3個主要的外部電源，讓它冷卻的3條都中斷了，要不然你覺得IAEA有必要發聲明？我看到連愛沙尼亞都發聲明譴責，要求俄羅斯不能再不顧核安，因為這些國家都在附近，我們臺灣核安會都沒有給我們相關的訊息，還要我跟你們問才有，然後主委說不大，我不知道不大是屬於多大。其實就是一件事，所謂的安全評估請把戰爭風險裡面的核安風險一起評估進去，主委可以答應嗎？我們就以俄烏戰爭作為經驗值，好不好？你不能想像中共會比俄羅斯友善嘛！因為我們中間還有臺灣海峽。"],["陳主任委員明真：這方面已經包括在裡面了，因為我們核電廠已經要求要有分散型的多重水源與電源的確保。"],["范委員雲：我知道你們現在都這樣說，就像福島也曾經以為一切都沒問題，你現在都有一關又一關，最後還說可以人力冷卻，我都當面問過你們了，我的意思是說，人都有可能出問題，對不對！你們剛剛都是避重就輕，連輻射會到哪個城市都不願意告訴我們，我想這個部分不只是屏東人、高雄人，連我們在場召委臺南人都不能接受，好不好！因為後來問到連輻射都有可能到福建，核安會的人跟我講因為這樣所以中共應該不會做這樣的事吧！你認為是這樣子嗎？我沒有辦法接受這種不精確的答案，報告給我們好不好？核安風險應該要包含最壞的狀況，謝謝，主委請回。","再來請中研院副院長。"],["周副院長美吟：委員好。"],["范委員雲：副院長好，本來要問院長，但是院長很忙，所以就問副院長。這個院士退場機制，之前的預算剛剛已經讓你們過關了，但我還是要追問，因為這不是只有我，還有民間反應，2019年你們的院士跟習近平站在一起，沒有保護香港城市大學的學生；2021年我們的院士協助中國政治打壓學生；2021年我們的院士在美國涉及協助中國滲透被捕、被調查。所以我講院士一定要有不適任的退場機制，在國外還有院士性騷、性侵的，所以我們目前已經有這種，問你們要怎麼處理，我知道有一定的難度，因為涉及到院士，所以我請你們一步一步來理解，要針對5個民主國家怎麼去規範，你們給我的報告，法國、日本、義大利就兩、三行打發我們，這樣不對吧！你們說你們是參考美國的NAS，可是你們給我們的英文資料跟我看到的一樣，可是你又沒有把它全文翻譯，以我跟我辦公室讀起來，人家就是有一個評估委員會，然後你們宣稱分成任職本院跟非任職本院，也就是說，非任職本院例如像這個在香港大學的，要由那個機構去處理撤銷什麼，中大、香港大學又不聽我們的，它如果就聽習近平的，那我們不就不能處理了？所以可不可以再次檢討，我的要求很簡單，有外在威脅的民主國家，例如芬蘭，它們怎麼處理這樣最高榮譽類似的院士制度，我們可不可以找幾個讓我們教文委員會知道一下？好不好！因為我們的情況跟義大利、法國畢竟不一樣。"],["周副院長美吟：好，我們會再做一些研究。"],["范委員雲：你說要香港大學處理，它又不聽你的，它要處理嗎？香港大學我們都參訪過，很多老師都離開了，到臺灣、到澳洲、到英國去，就是因為沒有學術、言論自由了。多久時間可以給我？"],["曾處長國祥：3個月好不好？"],["范委員雲：3個月？2個月吧！你們的研究能力不用3個月吧！2個月，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，所有的官員請回。剛剛范雲委員提到兩個報告，一個是有關於核安、國安的相關報告，還有中研院要如何規範最高榮譽人員的制度，這是2個月，這個報告除了送給范雲委員，也一併送教文委員會，謝謝。","請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有林沛祥委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}