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請好 謝謝主席 有請部長來 請部長"},{"start":28.973,"end":52.223,"text":"先給我第一張看一下好 部長好部長 想跟你先請問一下我們看這一則新聞核電機組陸續除役台電證明台中的電廠又沒量 屢創新低那台電也間接的證明盧修煙任內空污排放比2016年降低76%對嗎這我請台電來跟你們解釋台電對嗎 這你們的新聞稿"},{"start":58.359,"end":82.117,"text":"是,因為這個是台電跟台中市這種所以他在上任時有372億度那減去去年的272億度大概大降了超過100億度電,對嗎?是好,那這個是我們現階段看到了台電間接承認我們台中市一直以來都在往減煤減排的方向在進行可是我們看下一張"},{"start":84.192,"end":108.792,"text":"部長我還要延續5月1號的質詢部長你還記得5月1號我們兩個之間的對話嗎當時我問你火力發電會不會達到100%將近100%然後你跟我講這個機率很小那你知道在4月27到5月10號的這兩週14天內有12天有佔比突破90%的有14天有8天超過98%"},{"start":110.794,"end":130.298,"text":"有五天超過99%有兩天超過100%相比部長告訴我台灣進入非核家園未來約84%電力將有火力發電支撐還沒進入非核家園的承諾就已經破功了嘛部長你怎麼回應"},{"start":133.407,"end":145.453,"text":"我看數字的這個顯示嘛那如果委員認為這樣是火力全開我不反對又不反對前幾天不是說沒有火力全開嗎"},{"start":146.773,"end":169.634,"text":"還是你要認為火力九成九開就是不叫火力全開可是我現在問你的問題是你當時告訴我84%支撐所謂的火力發電來支撐結果沒有啊事實證明都超過90%再來我那天也問你晚上無風無雨你告訴我所謂的機率很小"},{"start":170.675,"end":186.342,"text":"平均發電在87%但今天我要看我們下一張圖核三二號機退役之後5月18到5月22每一個表格都是來自於台電的公開資料"},{"start":187.438,"end":197.982,"text":"退場之後每天夜間的火力佔比都超高深夜火力佔比常常都99%以上5月18 995月19 1045月20 1015月21 1025月22 102你告訴我平均用電量晚上夜間87%相距甚遠部長這個你怎麼回應鐵針針的數據啊是"},{"start":217.182,"end":223.644,"text":"那你有沒有覺得你應該為你的言論而道歉當時你就在這樣子的現場在國會的殿堂"},{"start":224.929,"end":253.16,"text":"你講出這些數據完全沒有依據完全就是敷衍甜言蜜語來欺騙台中人你說87%嘛但現階段我們看到的數據全部最高達到102%那你要怎麼說你就是在某個時段裡面是這個樣子在某個時段裡面是這樣子平均值是這個樣子所以你還是在用平均值來算嘛"},{"start":254.144,"end":259.249,"text":"那你中火更是火力全開剛剛說你可以認同5月18中火10部燃煤機組一部稅休9部可以發4950我們現階段發電發到了4587超過9成所以你現階段火力不是全開嗎"},{"start":276.963,"end":298.189,"text":"九部藍莓機組 九部都開 你告訴我火力沒全開火力九成開 算不算火力全開還是你要這邊站那一層一部是稅休你稅休你沒有開嘛 你是因為稅休沒開不是因為你不開啊所以基本上已經是把最大用電的發電量將近把它全部5月13"},{"start":302.97,"end":331.192,"text":"那我想你應該要就事實來說我要再回到我們下一張圖剛剛我講的第一張圖片我們在說的我們現階段2016年到2024年我們一直努力減碳減排終於有了成效可是在最近我們看到台中電廠的用煤量是屢創新高這個圖表我相信你都看過了這是用煤量我們下一張圖"},{"start":333.561,"end":352.859,"text":"我們把去年5月14號跟今年5月14號來做對比慢慢往前推進到了去年的5月17到今年的5月17我們看出差距發電的總量我們這總和開始越來越高"},{"start":354.073,"end":371.903,"text":"台電官網上說友善降載還有環保限制的跳票就用台中人的費來泰帝啊減煤承諾就是現階段我們看到的完全跳票為了救電可以犧牲台中人的健康台中火力發電會不會達到100%部長你當時還是說機率很少嗎"},{"start":376.105,"end":380.812,"text":"對照數據郭部長就是睜眼說瞎話難道98 99不算接近100%嗎這說大話說習慣了搞不清楚狀況部長我必須要講你就是說謊你就是騙子"},{"start":391.826,"end":419.705,"text":"你現階段你就是98%的騙子但是我沒有說你是100%的騙子因為你認為98%不是趨近於100%嗎所以我們現階段火力發電長年為全台供電台中市就要承受PM2.5超標肺癌居高不下口口聲聲的減煤 以氣換煤還有發展綠能你就是要告訴全民你的非核家園就是火力家園"},{"start":420.626,"end":439.58,"text":"所以我要跟你講中火是全球最大最老舊的啞鈴界藍莓電廠什麼時候要除疫什麼時候要給台中人健康部長你可不可以回應還是你要再繼續說謊還是你死不承認部長上一次5月1號講到現在您今天選擇沉默以對嗎還是說不出來還是啞口無言"},{"start":449.414,"end":470.513,"text":"部長 可以給我一些回應嗎那你給我時間講嗎請說好 這個所有發電的內容都是我們跟台中市政府合議的框架之內的數字這樣你知道嗎現階段你口口聲聲說合議的框架內啦"},{"start":471.482,"end":494.581,"text":"但是我們看到的發電總和所以你的意思就是說是經過台中市政府同意所以台中市政府他發證照給你你就可以這樣子不斷的使用今天我們看到數字超標你推給台中市政府合議的框架然後拿這些甜言蜜語繼續告訴民眾沒有啊台中市同意啊這個是在合議的框架之內在運作"},{"start":495.982,"end":512.58,"text":"你當然會這樣講可是我現階段跟你講的是2025年拿2024年你明明可以進步你現階段就是退步你還在用合議的框架你還在用這些數據平均量來告訴台中人沒有啊我們有持續的減煤減淡"},{"start":516.183,"end":540.271,"text":"謝謝主席我要講的是台中人的健康不是給你這樣隨意糊弄台中人的健康是台中市政府允許的範圍之內喔允許的範圍我們希望你越來越好我們在做的生煤自治條例也被中央廢除我們都希望能夠持續的減煤減碳但是中央就是在其中杯葛尤其經濟部的錯誤能源政策造成台中人最後健康損失"},{"start":540.971,"end":565.443,"text":"所以我們要再一次的抗議台中人應該要站起來我們更呼籲經濟部重視台中人的健康好我們經濟部非常重視所有全國國人的健康好 不好意思因為我下來了你又在講話所以我要回應你沒有啦沒有啦你如果今天重視的話今天麻煩你把真正的發電量能夠降低而不是我們看到了跟去年來對比我們的發電量屢創新高好 OK不要講了"},{"start":570.816,"end":574.481,"text":"再講我們等一下還要處理那個處理法案"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:48:01.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:48:02.349000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（蔡委員易餘）","start":"2025-05-22T11:48:02.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:48:02.369000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:48:34.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:48:34.895000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:48:35.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:48:35.876000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:48:36.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:48:52.663000+08:00","text":"部長，我想先請問一下，我們看這則新聞，核電機組陸續除役，台電證明台中電廠用煤量屢創新低，台電也間接證明盧秀燕任內空污排放比2016年降低76%，對嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:48:52.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:48:52.723000+08:00","text":"我請台電來跟你說明。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:48:52.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:48:52.963000+08:00","text":"台電，對嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:48:52.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:48:53.203000+08:00","text":"這是你們的新聞稿。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蔡副總經理志孟","start":"2025-05-22T11:48:59.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:49:01.741000+08:00","text":"因為這個是台電和臺中市政府……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:49:02.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:49:11.828000+08:00","text":"所以他在上任的時候有372億度，減去去年的272億度，大概大降超過100億度電，對嗎？是。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:49:13.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:49:31.898000+08:00","text":"這個是我們現階段看到的，台電間接承認臺中市一直以來都在往減煤、減排的方向進行，可是我還是要延續5月1日的質詢，部長，你還記得5月1日我們兩個之間的對話嗎？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:49:31.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:50:09.837000+08:00","text":"當時我問你火力發電會不會達到100%或將近100%，你跟我說這個機率很小，你知道在4月27日至5月10日這兩週，14天內有12天占比突破90%，有8天超過98%，有5天超過99%，有2天超過100%，相比部長告訴我臺灣進入非核家園，未來約84%電力將由火力發電支撐，還沒進入非核家園的承諾就已經破功了。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:50:10.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:50:11.298000+08:00","text":"部長，你怎麼回應？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:50:14.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:50:23.471000+08:00","text":"我看數字的顯示，如果委員認為這樣是火力全開，我不反對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:50:23.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:50:25.072000+08:00","text":"又不反對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:50:25.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:50:26.453000+08:00","text":"前幾天不是說沒有火力全開嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:50:27.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:50:33.438000+08:00","text":"還是你認為火力九成九開，就不叫火力全開？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:50:33.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:50:41.646000+08:00","text":"我現在問你的問題是，你當時告訴我84%由火力發電來支撐，結果沒有啊！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:50:41.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:50:43.928000+08:00","text":"事實證明都超過90%啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:50:43.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:51:18.902000+08:00","text":"再來，那一天我也問你，晚上無風無雨，你告訴我所謂的機率很小，平均發電在87%，但今天我們來看下一張圖，核三廠二號機退役之後，5月18號到5月22號，每一個表格都是來自於台電的公開資料，退場之後，每天夜間的火力占比都超高，深夜火力占比常常都99%以上，5月18號99%、5月19號104%、5月20號101%、5月21號102%、5月22號102%，跟你告訴我的平均用電量夜間87%相距甚遠，部長，這個你怎麼回應？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:51:18.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:51:18.962000+08:00","text":"鐵錚錚的數據啊！是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:51:38.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:51:40.390000+08:00","text":"那你有沒有覺得你應該為你的言論而道歉？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:51:41.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:51:56.993000+08:00","text":"當時你就在這樣的現場、在國會的殿堂，你講出這些數據，完全沒有依據、完全就是敷衍，用甜言蜜語來欺騙臺中人，你說87%嘛！","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:51:57.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:04.196000+08:00","text":"但是現階段我們看到的數據最高達到102%，那你要怎麼說？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:05.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:07.457000+08:00","text":"在某個時段裡面是這樣子……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:08.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:10.038000+08:00","text":"在某個時段裡面是這樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:10.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:11.319000+08:00","text":"並不是所有的平均值是這樣子。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:11.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:14.140000+08:00","text":"所以你還是在用平均值來算嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:15.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:16.525000+08:00","text":"中火更是火力全開，剛剛說你可以認同……","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:16.525000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:17.525000+08:00","text":"我並沒有用平均值來算，這是委員自己的論述。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:16.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:20.249000+08:00","text":"5月18號中火10部燃煤機組，1部歲修，9部可以發電至4,950，我們現階段發電到了4,587，超過九成，所以現階段火力不是全開嗎？","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:38.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:42.124000+08:00","text":"9部燃煤機組，9部都開，你告訴我火力沒全開？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:42.124000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:43.124000+08:00","text":"它是10部喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:42.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:45.365000+08:00","text":"火力九成開，算不算火力全開？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:45.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:46.345000+08:00","text":"還是你要在這邊戰那一成？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:46.345000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:48.146000+08:00","text":"總共是10部，你說9部開叫作火力全開……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:48.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:52.447000+08:00","text":"1部是歲修，歲修的沒有開嘛！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:52.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:55.228000+08:00","text":"你是因為歲修沒開，不是因為你不開啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:56.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:52:59.149000+08:00","text":"基本上已經是把最大用電的發電量將近把它全部……","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:52:59.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:53:02.110000+08:00","text":"因為我們評估它不需要開，所以讓它下來歲修嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:53:02.110000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:53:05.071000+08:00","text":"5月13號到5月20號，我們直接看……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:53:05.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:53:07.773000+08:00","text":"你應該就事實來說，而不是用這樣來……","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:53:08.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:53:31.391000+08:00","text":"回到下一張圖，剛剛我講的，第一張圖片我們在說的，現階段2016年到2024年，我們一直努力減碳減排，終於有了成效，可是在最近我們看到台中電廠的用煤量是屢創新高，這個圖表我相信你都看過了，這是用煤量。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:53:31.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:54:01.717000+08:00","text":"我們把去年5月14號跟今年5月14號來做對比，慢慢往前推進，從去年的5月17號到今年的5月17號，我們看出了差距，發電的總量開始越來越高，台電官網上說友善降載，還有環保限制的跳票，就用臺中人的肺來代替啊！","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:54:05.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:54:12.623000+08:00","text":"現階段我們看到減煤承諾是完全跳票，為了救電，可以犧牲臺中人的健康，臺中火力發電會不會達到100%？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:54:12.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:54:12.883000+08:00","text":"部長，你當時還說機率很少嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:54:17.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:54:19.469000+08:00","text":"對照數據，郭部長就是睜眼說瞎話啊！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:54:19.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:54:19.689000+08:00","text":"難道98%、99%不算接近100%嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:54:19.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:54:20.691000+08:00","text":"說大話說習慣了，搞不清楚狀況！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:54:20.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:00.705000+08:00","text":"部長，我必須要講，你就是說謊，你就是騙子，現階段你就是98%的騙子，但我沒有說你是100%的騙子，因為你認為98不是趨近於100，所以我們現階段火力發電長年為全臺供電，臺中市就要承受PM2.5超標，肺癌居高不下，口口聲聲說減煤、以氣換煤，還有發展綠能，你就是要告訴全民，你的非核家園就是火力家園！","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:01.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:09.452000+08:00","text":"所以我要跟你講，中火是全球最大、最老舊的亞臨界燃煤電廠，什麼時候要除役？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:10.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:11.814000+08:00","text":"什麼時候要給臺中人健康？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:12.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:13.995000+08:00","text":"部長，你可不可以回應？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:13.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:14.556000+08:00","text":"還是你要再繼續說謊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:14.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:17.858000+08:00","text":"還是你死不承認？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:17.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:20.240000+08:00","text":"部長，從上一次5月1號講到現在，您今天選擇沉默以對嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:20.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:20.400000+08:00","text":"還是說不出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:20.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:20.560000+08:00","text":"還是啞口無言？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:30.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:32.116000+08:00","text":"部長，可以給我一些回應嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:32.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:34.137000+08:00","text":"你可以給我時間講嗎？請說。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:35.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:49.191000+08:00","text":"所有發電的內容都是我們跟臺中市政府合議框架之內的數字，這樣你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:49.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:53.863000+08:00","text":"現階段你口口聲聲說合議的框架內，但是我們看到的發電總合……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:53.863000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:54.863000+08:00","text":"不是現階段啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:54.863000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:55:55.863000+08:00","text":"這個在以前就已經定下這樣的框架了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:55:55.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:03.771000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思就是經過臺中市政府同意，臺中市政府發證照給你，你就可以這樣不斷地使用？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:03.771000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:04.771000+08:00","text":"這是可以運轉的情況啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:04.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:14.020000+08:00","text":"今天我們看到數字超標，你推給臺中市政府合議的框架，然後拿這些甜言蜜語繼續告訴民眾：「沒有，臺中市同意啊！」","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:14.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:15.561000+08:00","text":"這是在合議框架之內運作，你不能夠這樣子講。","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:16.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:32.239000+08:00","text":"你當然會這樣講，可是我現階段跟你講的是，2025年拿2024年來看，明明可以進步，但現階段就是退步，你還在用合議的框架，你還在用這些數據、平均量來告訴臺中人：「沒有啊！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:32.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:33.560000+08:00","text":"我們有持續減煤減碳。」","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:33.560000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:37.183000+08:00","text":"羅委員，我已經給你一倍的時間了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:37.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:37.303000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:37.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:41.385000+08:00","text":"我要講的是臺中人的健康，不是給你這樣隨意糊弄……","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:41.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:45.666000+08:00","text":"臺中人的健康是臺中市政府允許的範圍之內喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:45.666000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:56:46.666000+08:00","text":"你不能夠這樣子斷章取義喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:56:46.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:08.534000+08:00","text":"允許的範圍，我們希望你越來越好，我們在做的生煤自治條例也被中央廢除，我們都希望能夠持續減煤減碳，但中央就是在其中杯葛，尤其經濟部的錯誤能源政策，造成臺中人最後健康損失，所以我們要再一次抗議，臺中人應該要站起來，我們更呼籲經濟部重視臺中人的健康。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:10.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:14.717000+08:00","text":"我們經濟部非常重視所有國人的健康。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:15.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:17.498000+08:00","text":"不好意思，因為我下來了，你又在講話，所以我要回應你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:17.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:17.999000+08:00","text":"沒有啦、沒有啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:17.999000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:18.999000+08:00","text":"就同樣的話了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:18.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:26.163000+08:00","text":"如果你今天重視的話，麻煩你今天把真正的發電量能夠降低，而不是我們看到跟去年來對比，我們的發電量屢創新高。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:26.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:26.423000+08:00","text":"OK，不要講了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:32.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:33.759000+08:00","text":"我們等一下還要處理法案欸！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:34.259000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:40.259000+08:00","text":"下一位請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:40.559000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:45.416143+08:00","text":"我們中午不休息，就把今天議程處理完畢。","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:45.716143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:50.573286+08:00","text":"李坤城委員、李坤城委員、李坤城委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-05-22T11:57:50.873286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-05-22T11:57:54.016143+08:00","text":"下一位請徐富癸委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":912,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時48分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，我想先請問一下，我們看這則新聞，核電機組陸續除役，台電證明台中電廠用煤量屢創新低，台電也間接證明盧秀燕任內空污排放比2016年降低76%，對嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我請台電來跟你說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：台電，對嗎？這是你們的新聞稿。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：因為這個是台電和臺中市政府……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以他在上任的時候有372億度，減去去年的272億度，大概大降超過100億度電，對嗎？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個是我們現階段看到的，台電間接承認臺中市一直以來都在往減煤、減排的方向進行，可是我還是要延續5月1日的質詢，部長，你還記得5月1日我們兩個之間的對話嗎？當時我問你火力發電會不會達到100%或將近100%，你跟我說這個機率很小，你知道在4月27日至5月10日這兩週，14天內有12天占比突破90%，有8天超過98%，有5天超過99%，有2天超過100%，相比部長告訴我臺灣進入非核家園，未來約84%電力將由火力發電支撐，還沒進入非核家園的承諾就已經破功了。部長，你怎麼回應？"],["郭部長智輝：我看數字的顯示，如果委員認為這樣是火力全開，我不反對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：又不反對？前幾天不是說沒有火力全開嗎？還是你認為火力九成九開，就不叫火力全開？我現在問你的問題是，你當時告訴我84%由火力發電來支撐，結果沒有啊！事實證明都超過90%啊！","再來，那一天我也問你，晚上無風無雨，你告訴我所謂的機率很小，平均發電在87%，但今天我們來看下一張圖，核三廠二號機退役之後，5月18號到5月22號，每一個表格都是來自於台電的公開資料，退場之後，每天夜間的火力占比都超高，深夜火力占比常常都99%以上，5月18號99%、5月19號104%、5月20號101%、5月21號102%、5月22號102%，跟你告訴我的平均用電量夜間87%相距甚遠，部長，這個你怎麼回應？鐵錚錚的數據啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你有沒有覺得你應該為你的言論而道歉？當時你就在這樣的現場、在國會的殿堂，你講出這些數據，完全沒有依據、完全就是敷衍，用甜言蜜語來欺騙臺中人，你說87%嘛！但是現階段我們看到的數據最高達到102%，那你要怎麼說？"],["郭部長智輝：在某個時段裡面是這樣子……"],["羅委員廷瑋：在某個時段裡面是這樣子？"],["郭部長智輝：並不是所有的平均值是這樣子。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你還是在用平均值來算嘛！中火更是火力全開，剛剛說你可以認同……"],["郭部長智輝：我並沒有用平均值來算，這是委員自己的論述。"],["羅委員廷瑋：5月18號中火10部燃煤機組，1部歲修，9部可以發電至4,950，我們現階段發電到了4,587，超過九成，所以現階段火力不是全開嗎？9部燃煤機組，9部都開，你告訴我火力沒全開？"],["郭部長智輝：它是10部喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：火力九成開，算不算火力全開？還是你要在這邊戰那一成？"],["郭部長智輝：總共是10部，你說9部開叫作火力全開……"],["羅委員廷瑋：1部是歲修，歲修的沒有開嘛！你是因為歲修沒開，不是因為你不開啊！基本上已經是把最大用電的發電量將近把它全部……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們評估它不需要開，所以讓它下來歲修嘛！"],["羅委員廷瑋：5月13號到5月20號，我們直接看……"],["郭部長智輝：你應該就事實來說，而不是用這樣來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：回到下一張圖，剛剛我講的，第一張圖片我們在說的，現階段2016年到2024年，我們一直努力減碳減排，終於有了成效，可是在最近我們看到台中電廠的用煤量是屢創新高，這個圖表我相信你都看過了，這是用煤量。我們把去年5月14號跟今年5月14號來做對比，慢慢往前推進，從去年的5月17號到今年的5月17號，我們看出了差距，發電的總量開始越來越高，台電官網上說友善降載，還有環保限制的跳票，就用臺中人的肺來代替啊！現階段我們看到減煤承諾是完全跳票，為了救電，可以犧牲臺中人的健康，臺中火力發電會不會達到100%？部長，你當時還說機率很少嘛！對照數據，郭部長就是睜眼說瞎話啊！難道98%、99%不算接近100%嗎？說大話說習慣了，搞不清楚狀況！部長，我必須要講，你就是說謊，你就是騙子，現階段你就是98%的騙子，但我沒有說你是100%的騙子，因為你認為98不是趨近於100，所以我們現階段火力發電長年為全臺供電，臺中市就要承受PM2.5超標，肺癌居高不下，口口聲聲說減煤、以氣換煤，還有發展綠能，你就是要告訴全民，你的非核家園就是火力家園！所以我要跟你講，中火是全球最大、最老舊的亞臨界燃煤電廠，什麼時候要除役？什麼時候要給臺中人健康？部長，你可不可以回應？還是你要再繼續說謊？還是你死不承認？部長，從上一次5月1號講到現在，您今天選擇沉默以對嗎？還是說不出來？還是啞口無言？部長，可以給我一些回應嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你可以給我時間講嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：請說。"],["郭部長智輝：所有發電的內容都是我們跟臺中市政府合議框架之內的數字，這樣你知道嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：現階段你口口聲聲說合議的框架內，但是我們看到的發電總合……"],["郭部長智輝：不是現階段啊！這個在以前就已經定下這樣的框架了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你的意思就是經過臺中市政府同意，臺中市政府發證照給你，你就可以這樣不斷地使用？"],["郭部長智輝：這是可以運轉的情況啊！"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天我們看到數字超標，你推給臺中市政府合議的框架，然後拿這些甜言蜜語繼續告訴民眾：「沒有，臺中市同意啊！」"],["郭部長智輝：這是在合議框架之內運作，你不能夠這樣子講。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你當然會這樣講，可是我現階段跟你講的是，2025年拿2024年來看，明明可以進步，但現階段就是退步，你還在用合議的框架，你還在用這些數據、平均量來告訴臺中人：「沒有啊！我們有持續減煤減碳。」"],["主席：羅委員，我已經給你一倍的時間了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝主席。我要講的是臺中人的健康，不是給你這樣隨意糊弄……"],["郭部長智輝：臺中人的健康是臺中市政府允許的範圍之內喔！你不能夠這樣子斷章取義喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：允許的範圍，我們希望你越來越好，我們在做的生煤自治條例也被中央廢除，我們都希望能夠持續減煤減碳，但中央就是在其中杯葛，尤其經濟部的錯誤能源政策，造成臺中人最後健康損失，所以我們要再一次抗議，臺中人應該要站起來，我們更呼籲經濟部重視臺中人的健康。"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部非常重視所有國人的健康。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，因為我下來了，你又在講話，所以我要回應你。"],["主席：沒有啦、沒有啦！就同樣的話了……"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果你今天重視的話，麻煩你今天把真正的發電量能夠降低，而不是我們看到跟去年來對比，我們的發電量屢創新高。"],["主席：OK，不要講了！我們等一下還要處理法案欸！","下一位請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。我們中午不休息，就把今天議程處理完畢。","李坤城委員、李坤城委員、李坤城委員不在。","下一位請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-14","speakers":["蔡易餘","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","謝衣鳯","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","呂玉玲"],"page_start":139,"meetingDate":["2025-05-22"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 39案；二、處理或\n審查 114 年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21 案；三、繼續審\n查：(一)行政院函請審議「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員王美惠等18人\n擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「個人資料保護\n法部分條文修正草案」案、( 四) 本院委員李坤城等16 人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委\n員陳亭妃等16人擬具「個人資料保護法第十二條、第二十七條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(七)本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145201_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}