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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t審查委員黃建賓等16人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t審查委員徐巧芯等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t審查委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)\t審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t審查委員陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「建築法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)\t審查委員邱鎮軍等18人擬具「建築法第六十三條及第八十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二、平均地權條例：\n審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【全案合併詢答；建築法第(十)案如經院會復議則不予審查，建築法第(十一)及(十二)案如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】【6月4日及5日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":9.66659375,"end":9.818468750000001,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":9.88596875,"end":12.72096875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳署長欣修","start":13.04159375,"end":13.68284375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":19.75784375,"end":21.36096875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":22.01909375,"end":24.60096875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":25.10721875,"end":26.575343750000002,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":27.199718750000002,"end":30.06846875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":30.16971875,"end":33.62909375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":34.10159375,"end":34.50659375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":35.181593750000005,"end":42.69096875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":43.48409375,"end":47.078468750000006,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":48.00659375,"end":56.595968750000004,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":56.93346875,"end":70.18034375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":58.604093750000004,"end":59.025968750000004,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":70.95659375000001,"end":74.63534375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":75.02346875,"end":76.84596875000001,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":76.84596875000001,"end":78.93846875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":77.60534375,"end":78.68534375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":78.93846875,"end":78.97221875000001,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":78.97221875000001,"end":81.45284375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":81.06471875000001,"end":81.40221875,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":81.45284375,"end":81.52034375000001,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":81.52034375000001,"end":90.83534375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":81.60471875,"end":81.68909375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":91.10534375,"end":98.12534375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":98.46284375,"end":100.42034375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":100.70721875000001,"end":105.82034375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":106.78221875000001,"end":125.81721875000001,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳署長欣修","start":112.33409375000001,"end":113.19471875,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳署長欣修","start":114.76409375,"end":115.37159375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳署長欣修","start":115.47284375000001,"end":115.97909375,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":125.95221875000001,"end":135.95909375000002,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":131.87534375,"end":132.88784375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":136.16159375,"end":137.69721875000002,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":138.18659375000001,"end":148.21034375000002,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"徐委員欣瑩","start":148.53096875,"end":150.60659375,"speaker_score":0.899},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"劉部長世芳","start":150.60659375,"end":204.31971875000002,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳署長欣修","start":161.49096875,"end":161.67659375000002,"speaker_score":0.911},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳署長欣修","start":168.40971875000002,"end":168.93284375000002,"speaker_score":0.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只有凱達格蘭大道我們大家知道因為它牽扯著住戶啊還有有用到凱達格蘭大道的身份證或人民生活太少了嘛凱達格蘭大道真的我這點本席也就本席的了解也是它最成功那現在你要求各縣市政府去進行有沒有"},{"start":260.463,"end":279.662,"text":"报告委员我们不敢要求我特别提到说中央政府要跟地方政府要沟通那你是由上而上还是由上而下按照地方制度法是由下而上对嘛由下而上那一定是地方有共识他才会做嘛是不是那现在如果地方没共识你会硬推吗"},{"start":280.302,"end":295.003,"text":"我沒有第一個我第一個沒有法則然後第二個我剛剛有提到轉型正義要顧慮到程序正義社會溝通那我剛剛有特別提到說如果造成對立就表示說我們的溝通不是很完整"},{"start":295.744,"end":312.271,"text":"或者是實施的不完整才會造成一些實施要看各地方政府因為很多地方政府他們的街道改名的機制有他們的自治準則一定要溝通完整嘛社會有共識而且由下而上目前有"},{"start":312.811,"end":335.596,"text":"任何一個區域有這樣的符合這樣的情況嗎我剛有跟委員報告過你說台南是嗎現在我知道的台南那其實更早台南OK那就這樣台南嘛你答案就是台南嘛是那更早以前在那台南實施的情況你有了解嗎就台南實施下去台南的部分的話他們也是天怒人怨而且好像做到現在做在2022年開始做到現在"},{"start":338.297,"end":358.066,"text":"他做了170公尺之後他就很難往下黃偉哲市長他特別說接下來他要以衝擊最小爭議最少的區域來優先逐步推動不求一次到位他是希望達成這個目標但是呢"},{"start":358.826,"end":381.714,"text":"他也發現說不容易而且現在整個的戶政還有整個的地圖系統各方面整個混亂啦民眾生活整個被受不受影響我們還沒有改怎麼會有混亂呢有心要推動那慢慢來推動然後有共識這是我們基本的想法所以我剛剛有特別提到你程序正義上一定要合法合規那轉型正義條例已經有"},{"start":384.255,"end":385.397,"text":"還有社會溝通不要產生政黨之間的對立現在就是不要造成民怨還有民眾的困擾"},{"start":399.298,"end":424.176,"text":"我不清楚所謂的民眾的困擾是來自於哪裡第一個轉型正義條例已經是2017年從第八第九屆的立法委員到現在都有在討論而且他已經是成案我現在講的是執行面執行面所以現在你入民更改難道你不覺得會影響到人民的生活嗎"},{"start":425.65,"end":452.141,"text":"我沒有問你我只是你心裡想一下所以我不用回答對這個影響到人民生活非常多那已經有實施的台南市他都發現哇不行緩下來那所以我還是認同但是他沒有停止啊他是緩步推動緩步推動能夠有社會共識所以我非常了解包括所以你認同嘛對台南市我還沒有請你回答所以我才說我們是協助地方政府我沒有說一步到位啊"},{"start":453.321,"end":476.146,"text":"所以我們現在是在討論所以這個部分要地方還有社會有共識然後才能進行但是如果強推的結果就是造成台南他自己有感受到真的不好推更重要我要講的是我們做任何事你的各方面的完善"},{"start":477.006,"end":498.757,"text":"那包含剛剛也很多人提到我想你的經費你大概也要預估一下我的時間的關係我就不跟你再往下你經費如果你真的全國要推你的經費有沒有到位你自己要去這個衡量再來就是報告委員他是用基金預算你那個基金對我有看一下你知道你那個基金現在有多少錢嗎"},{"start":499.597,"end":517.277,"text":"你知道嗎基金預算不是說有多少錢基金預算就是說你本與你的任務需求在申請的時候基金就有這個一個他的一個審查文會然後他會在編列的時候把它放進去你是不是用促轉基金嘛是那是國發會主管的對促轉基金整個裡面有多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":518.376,"end":534.116,"text":"那是國發會的不是說有多少錢不是他不是用他不是公務預算有編列每一年要執行你基金需要多少錢他會再撥進去跟我們住宅基金是非常相像的就本席了解他那個基金好像是從好像國民黨那個黨產弄過來的"},{"start":536.297,"end":565.105,"text":"妳確定是撥補的嗎在促短條例裡面是這樣子沒有錯而且我所了解是有經費但是經費有多少我還需要細查報告所以那這樣好了會後請你提供你剛剛一開始有跟我們報告說總共全國如果要改中正路有多少條然後那你估一下要多少錢你會後估了一下要多少錢全國整個下去要多少錢你再提供給我們我相信你現在說不出來"},{"start":565.845,"end":577.912,"text":"要多少錢因為這是要地方政府報上來不是由我們去幫他預估因為每個地方在執行的時候有一些不同的困擾那以前的台中市在處理台灣大道的時候他們所用的經費是幾百萬好 現在"},{"start":581.554,"end":609.981,"text":"如果說中正路要改名我問你那台北市中正區還有像那個中正國小中正大學中正高中甚至如果說經國路也要改的話經國管理學院我們中正一分局甚至經國號戰機是不是要改所以除了好像不只內政部那這樣教育部國防部這個都要改吧是不是都要進行改名啊"},{"start":611.115,"end":638.757,"text":"是 但是我現在在內政部就是我按照促轉條例交代給內政部的業務我來處理的所以最後針對這個部分我想我一個結論就是說希望內政部不要不管食物報告我內政部的事情真的是非常的多而雜不是完全噁心殺或者吃飽沒事幹的中正堂改名你應該沒有社會共識吧你應該就是下命令吧中正堂"},{"start":643.171,"end":671.529,"text":"中正堂改名哪裏的中正堂不是中正紀念堂沒有沒有我們只有處理那個街道那個巷弄啊這個是沒有沒有如果地方有中正兩個字的我跟你講我的選區裏面他有一個活動中心叫中正堂他們就反應不勝其擾啊你們每年都公文去然後他們呢老實講地方沒共識他還是得回你嘛公務單位所以他就他就"},{"start":672.969,"end":689.697,"text":"有一點呼嚨的草率也回應了所以這一塊如果這個要有共識的那我想你這個他們到現在沒動但你內政部函詢已經很多次而且要求他每年的進度要回報這個公文"},{"start":691.038,"end":704.167,"text":"所以我只是強調我們做任何事真的我們支持但是合法合理之外還要顧及我們民眾的感受不好意思最後這個建築法我問簡單兩個問題一個就是我們"},{"start":708.67,"end":732.572,"text":"建築法56條有委員提議要納入第三方公正單位的審驗制度那內政部報告直接說已經授權直轄市或縣市政府了那可是我們看到整個全國近五年整個零損的案例非常非常的多你授權地方政府你授權地方政府但實際上"},{"start":734.033,"end":745.128,"text":"好像為什麼不我們中央來統一我們中央的法令如果可以規定的話那我們整個把它規範好為什麼不做"},{"start":746.209,"end":771.131,"text":"原因是什麼?根文報告啦,因為其實這樣的條文在簡單來講就是說過去107年曾經討論過但是其實當時就引發非常多爭議就是在所謂的第三方勘驗的一個執行單位到底是建築師、土木技師、結構技師那是在什麼樣的程度下去介入那後來因為各個工會的見解也不一"},{"start":771.691,"end":790.669,"text":"那地方政府的見解不一所以後來大家才同意說不要放在母法而是授權地方政府依實務看看哪個階段需要是哪個工會是哪些單位去做那這樣的話比較貼近他們的實務而不要強制在56條直接去加當時的概念是這樣"},{"start":791.229,"end":806.119,"text":"不是在實務你還是可以在法條中依據實務給他一個應該這麼說因為這樣反而給地方政府他比較有實際上的權限因為地方政府他本來就有這樣的一個狀況現在地方政府的話產生的問題很大吧"},{"start":808.86,"end":833.774,"text":"公文報告很多所謂的臨損它其實是過程中而不是在勘驗階段的成果所以勘驗是指它過程的結果其實更大的爭議就是說對於建築的建設公司要求完善這一塊我們中央可不可以有一個比較明確的法令因為其實這個發生在各縣市都很多的問題"},{"start":835.068,"end":862.278,"text":"包含天坑各方面的事件也跟我們報告啦因為其實過程當中的問題是最難去處理就是說因為譬如說像我們沒關係啦那我們這樣我們討論法條的時候再來最後最後一題啦現在整個建管制度再怎麼完整沒有人力也是空談我們發現我不知道你們有沒有發現各縣市政府的土木建管人員需求很多但報道率都大概"},{"start":863.058,"end":865.7,"text":"不到三分之一這個問題凸顯什麼問題也跟我們報告啦其實它有很多面向的問題啦現在建築法規很繁雜也是一個問題建築實務上來講就是說民間的待遇可能都比較高這也是一個問題"},{"start":882.594,"end":907.253,"text":"那部長有沒有可能這個待遇有沒有可能公務人員都一致在工程會跟人事總署在上個月有開會我們也有表達一些意見就是說對於這一個專業的加級然後對於這一個職等的調升或者是對於相關月聘僱人員勞務承攬人員的一個待遇的提升我們都有提供一些建議給"},{"start":910.184,"end":937.517,"text":"給這個人總跟這個工程會你剛剛講了一堆但是現在我們的公務人員而且是專業的那我們需求的是正式的缺額的我都補不足了所以我覺得你們可能還是要講一下輕重緩急不然你一次全部要他當然不會答應我們也有包含所謂剛剛講的月聘僱人員因為有些地方這種他會需要用到月聘僱人員那甚至有些是勞務承攬人員我想我們這都有提供一些建議了好"},{"start":939.419,"end":947.411,"text":"但是我們絕對不要還是要繼續爭取啦不然你這樣問題還是很大嘛沒錯 這個我們還是會持續去爭取的謝謝委員好 謝謝徐信委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:43:37+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:43:39.495750+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，本席有請劉部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-06-04T11:43:39.495750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:43:41.991500+08:00","text":"劉部長有請。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:43:41.991500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:43:44.487250+08:00","text":"徐委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:43:44.487250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:43:46.983000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:43:46.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:44:25.116000+08:00","text":"我們在討論建築法之前，本席也要跟您討論一下有關最近您引起的中正路改名爭議，如果我沒有聽錯的話，前面好像有些委員在質詢的時候，您對於中正路的改名好像說是依據轉型正義條例，是不是？是。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:44:25.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:44:33.397000+08:00","text":"清除威權象徵是法定義務，在我們的促進轉型正義條例第五條跟第十一條之二裡面有規定。","quality":0.658},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:44:34.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:44:35.338000+08:00","text":"對，是依據這個嘛！是。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:44:36.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:44:54.247000+08:00","text":"所以我們了解很多事情您是有所依據的，您說這個是法定義務，它是條例有規定，但跟法定義務好像不完全等號吧？沒有。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:44:54.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:44:54.868000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:44:55.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:44:55.408000+08:00","text":"它是法定義務？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:44:56.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:45:15.928000+08:00","text":"在第十一條之二裡面寫得非常清楚，它就直接點名在促轉會結束部分階段性任務之後，有關於跟地方制度相關的，包括道路的命名等等，就是由內政部來負責。對啊！","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:45:16.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:45:22.594000+08:00","text":"由內政部負責，但是法律有規範跟它是法定義務不一樣吧？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:45:23.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:45:28.421000+08:00","text":"所以它不見得是法定義務，我跟你講，如果是法定義務的話，我請問你……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:45:29.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:45:30.921000+08:00","text":"法定任務。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:45:30.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:45:31.302000+08:00","text":"對，是任務嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:45:31.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:45:32.582000+08:00","text":"不是義務。是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:45:32.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:45:48.445000+08:00","text":"任務跟義務真的不一樣，好，所以是法定任務，那本席就要繼續往下，既然它是一個任務，所以您要來做，其實法律有規定，我們也支持，也應該要這樣做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:45:49.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:45:49.905000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:45:49.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:45:59.089000+08:00","text":"但是你要做的這個過程，你有先去了解這個做下去，怎麼樣完善嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:45:59.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:46:08.114000+08:00","text":"還是你引起整個人民生活，包含地方政府的大混亂，你有去了解嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:46:08.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:46:30.509000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想是這樣子，第一個，促轉條例第十一條之二通過的時候，距離目前應該是兩年前跟三年前的事情，所以當時這樣規範下來的話，內政部已經先做了一部分的處理，這部分的處理我們在以前有報告整個數據提供參考，就是比較簡易的部分……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:46:30.509000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:46:37.815000+08:00","text":"儘量重點式回答我的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:46:37.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:46:45.681000+08:00","text":"就是塑像、雕像，或是這個部分能夠移除的就先移除，我所了解移除最多的，很多人都是把塑像移到桃園大溪。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:46:45.681000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:46:46.681000+08:00","text":"沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:46:46.681000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:46:47.681000+08:00","text":"我現在是針對路，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:46:45.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:46:47.942000+08:00","text":"就是你現在在執行的路名……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:46:48.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:46:59.772000+08:00","text":"路的部分在我們委託南臺科技大學裡面，它有提到這是第四個模式，在第四個模式裡面，剛剛我有跟部分委員報告過，目前為止我們統計出來大概會有三百多件。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:00.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:19.524000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，我現在要了解的是，我們要做一件事，不管是地方政府、中央政府，大概都會預判怎麼做才會完善，而且很多東西要預估怎麼樣做下去，而不是突然間造成很大混亂，又達不成嘛！","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:19.524000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:20.524000+08:00","text":"我的問題主要是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:20.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:22.766000+08:00","text":"是，我了解委員的用意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:23.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:23.967000+08:00","text":"所以我有提到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:25.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:29.350000+08:00","text":"到目前為止有在進行更改路名的，您知道有……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:29.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:30.350000+08:00","text":"臺南市是有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:30.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:32.512000+08:00","text":"有沒有成功的案例？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:33.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:34.433000+08:00","text":"凱達格蘭大道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:35.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:45.518000+08:00","text":"對，只有凱達格蘭大道，我們大家知道，因為它牽扯的住戶，還有用到凱達格蘭大道的身分證或人民生活的太少了嘛！","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:46.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:51.621000+08:00","text":"凱達格蘭大道這點，就本席的了解也是它最成功。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:52.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:56.343000+08:00","text":"現在你要求各縣市政府去進行，有沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:58.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:47:59.465000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們不敢要求。好……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:47:59.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:03.489000+08:00","text":"我特別提到中央政府要跟地方政府溝通。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:03.489000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:04.489000+08:00","text":"太好了，對嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:04.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:06.572000+08:00","text":"那你是由下而上，還是由上而下？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:06.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:09.715000+08:00","text":"按照地方制度法是由下而上。對嘛！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:09.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:13.438000+08:00","text":"由下而上，那一定是地方有共識，它才會做嘛！是。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:13.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:14.399000+08:00","text":"是不是？是。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:14.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:16.401000+08:00","text":"現在如果地方沒共識，你會硬推嗎？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:18.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:20.547000+08:00","text":"第一個，沒有罰則。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:20.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:25.754000+08:00","text":"第二個，我剛剛有提到，轉型正義要顧慮到程序正義、社會溝通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:26.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:31.983000+08:00","text":"我剛有特別提到，如果造成對立，就表示我們的溝通不是很完整，既然……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:32.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:36.326000+08:00","text":"對，或者是實施得不完整，才會造成一些……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:37.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:44.009000+08:00","text":"沒有，實施要看各地方政府，因為很多地方政府的街道改名機制有它們的自治準則。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:44.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:52.972000+08:00","text":"OK，你剛剛已經講了一定要溝通完整，社會有共識，而且由下而上，目前有任何一個區域符合這樣的情況嗎？","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:52.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:54.412000+08:00","text":"我剛剛有跟委員報告過……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:54.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:54.932000+08:00","text":"你說臺南市嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:54.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:48:58.073000+08:00","text":"現在我知道的臺南其實更早……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:48:58.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:00.314000+08:00","text":"OK，那就這樣，臺南嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:00.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:01.694000+08:00","text":"你的答案就是臺南嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:02.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:03.594000+08:00","text":"是，更早以前在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:03.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:05.735000+08:00","text":"臺南實施的情況你有了解嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:06.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:12.576000+08:00","text":"臺南實施下去也是天怒人怨，而且好像從2022年開始做到現在，前面只做了……","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:12.576000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:16.317000+08:00","text":"不是，它更早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:16.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:47.570000+08:00","text":"好，它更早，它做了170公尺之後就很難往下，黃偉哲市長特別說接下來要以衝擊最小、爭議最少的區域優先逐步推動，不求一次到位，他是希望達成這個目標，但是他也發現不容易，而且現在整個戶政，還有整個地圖系統各方面整個混亂，民眾生活整個受到影響。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:47.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:48.551000+08:00","text":"我們還沒有改，怎麼會有混亂呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:49.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:54.933000+08:00","text":"有心要推動，慢慢來推動，然後有共識，這是我們基本的想法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:55.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:58.694000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛有特別提到，程序正義上一定要合法合規，轉型正義條例已經有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:58.694000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:49:59.974500+08:00","text":"對，而且你有講，你絕對不會強制嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:49:59.974500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:01.255000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:01.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:01.496000+08:00","text":"還有社會溝通。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:01.496000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:02.496000+08:00","text":"對，然後不會強制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:01.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:01.776000+08:00","text":"不要產生那種政黨之間的對立。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:01.776000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:02.776000+08:00","text":"對，政黨也不會對立啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:02.776000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:03.776000+08:00","text":"但是我也要跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:01.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:02.397000+08:00","text":"現在就是不要造成民怨，還有民眾的困擾，我想很多人……","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:16.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:20.661000+08:00","text":"我不清楚所謂的民眾的困擾是來自於哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:20.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:24.144000+08:00","text":"第一個，轉型正義條例已經是2017年……好啦！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:24.144000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:25.405000+08:00","text":"我現在跟你講的是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:25.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:29.848000+08:00","text":"從第8、第9屆的立法委員到現在都有在討論，而且它已經是成案。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:29.848000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:31.389000+08:00","text":"OK、OK，不要浪費時間好不好？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:31.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:33.331000+08:00","text":"我現在講的是執行面嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:35.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:41.176000+08:00","text":"所以現在路名更改，難道你不覺得會影響到人民的生活嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:42.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:44.731000+08:00","text":"我沒有問你，我只是要你心裡想一下。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:44.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:47.212000+08:00","text":"所以我不用回答。對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:47.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:52.514000+08:00","text":"這個影響到人民生活非常多，已經有實施的臺南市都發現，哇！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:53.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:55.115000+08:00","text":"不行，緩下來！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:55.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:56.056000+08:00","text":"所以我還是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:56.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:57.336000+08:00","text":"但是它沒有停止啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:50:58.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:50:59.877000+08:00","text":"它是緩步推動。緩步……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:00.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:01.278000+08:00","text":"能夠有社會共識。對。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:01.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:03.759000+08:00","text":"所以我非常了解，包括……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:03.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:04.399000+08:00","text":"所以你認同嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:04.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:04.939000+08:00","text":"對，臺南市……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:05.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:05.920000+08:00","text":"我還沒有請你回答，好不好？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:06.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:09.121000+08:00","text":"所以我才說我們是協助地方政府，我沒有說一步到位啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:09.121000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:11.461000+08:00","text":"對，我也沒說你說一步到位。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:11.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:19.483000+08:00","text":"我們現在是在討論，所以這個部分要地方還有社會有共識，然後才能進行嘛！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:20.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:26.845000+08:00","text":"但是如果強推的結果就是造成……臺南自己有感受到真的不好推。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:28.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:45.272000+08:00","text":"更重要我要講的是，我們做任何事要各方面的完善，包含剛剛也有很多人提到，你的經費大概也要預估一下，我的時間的關係，我就不跟你再往下了，如果真的全國要推，你的經費有沒有到位？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:45.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:48.173000+08:00","text":"你自己要去衡量。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:48.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:49.273000+08:00","text":"再來就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:49.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:51.555000+08:00","text":"報告委員，它是用基金預算……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:51.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:53.636000+08:00","text":"我沒有要你回答。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:53.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:53.636000+08:00","text":"對不起。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:53.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:55.757000+08:00","text":"我有看一下，你知道那個基金現在有多少錢嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:56.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:51:57.138000+08:00","text":"你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:51:57.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:52:07.510000+08:00","text":"基金預算不是說有多少錢，基金預算就是本於任務需求，在申請的時候，基金就有一個審查委員會，然後會在編列的時候把它放進去。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:52:08.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:52:09.232000+08:00","text":"你是不是用促轉基金嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:52:09.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:52:11.454000+08:00","text":"是，那是國發會主管的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:52:11.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:52:14.277000+08:00","text":"促轉基金整個裡面有多少錢，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:52:15.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:52:26.009000+08:00","text":"那是國發會的，不是說有多少錢，它不是公務預算有編列每一年要執行，基金需要多少錢，它會再撥補進去，跟我們住宅基金是非常相像的。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:52:26.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:52:35.498000+08:00","text":"就本席了解，它那個基金好像是從國民黨黨產弄過來的，你確定是撥補的嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:52:35.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:52:43.340000+08:00","text":"在促轉條例裡面是這樣子沒有錯，而且我所了解是有經費，但是經費有多少，我還需要細查，報告委員。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:52:44.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:03.806000+08:00","text":"這樣好了，會後請你提供，你剛剛一開始有跟我們報告，全國如果要改，中正路總共有多少條，你估一下要多少錢，全國整個做下去要多少錢，會後你再提供給我們，我相信你現在說不出來要多少錢。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:03.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:10.990000+08:00","text":"因為這是要由地方政府報上來，不是由我們去幫它預估，因為每個地方在執行的時候有一些不同的困擾。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:10.990000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:11.990000+08:00","text":"現在這樣啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:11.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:14.852000+08:00","text":"以前的臺中市在處理臺灣大道的時候，它們所用的經費是幾百萬。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:14.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:18.554000+08:00","text":"你不要再浪費我的時間了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:18.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:38.459000+08:00","text":"如果中正路要改名，我問你，臺北市中正區，還有中正國小、中正大學、中正高中，甚至如果經國路也要改的話，經國管理學院、中正一分局，甚至經國號戰機是不是要改？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:39.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:44.360000+08:00","text":"好像不止是內政部，這樣教育部、國防部的部分也都要改吧？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:45.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:46.781000+08:00","text":"是不是都要進行改名？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:48.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:50.057000+08:00","text":"是，但是我現在在內政部……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:50.057000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:51.057000+08:00","text":"我知道你的答案一定是這樣。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:50.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:53:55.561000+08:00","text":"我按照促轉條例交代給內政部的業務，我來處理了。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:53:55.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:01.946000+08:00","text":"所以最後針對這個部分，我一個結論，希望內政部不要不管實務，要讓民眾……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:03.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:10.053000+08:00","text":"報告委員，內政部的事情真的是非常多而雜，不是完全「五四三」或者吃飽沒事幹。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:10.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:13.976000+08:00","text":"中正堂改名應該沒有社會共識吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:14.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:15.517000+08:00","text":"你應該就是下命令吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:21.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:22.753000+08:00","text":"哪裡的中正堂？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:22.753000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:23.753000+08:00","text":"因為我們只處理……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:23.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:23.853000+08:00","text":"不是中正紀念堂。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:24.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:29.177000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們只有處理街道巷弄，這個是促轉會依據第十一條……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:30.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:40.684000+08:00","text":"如果地方有「中正」兩個字的，我跟你講，我的選區裡面有一個活動中心叫「中正堂」，他們就反映不勝其擾啊！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:40.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:54:52.490000+08:00","text":"你們每年都公文去，老實講他們地方沒共識，但還是得回公務單位嘛，所以就有一點糊弄的、草率的也回應了。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:54:53.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:55:05.316000+08:00","text":"所以這一塊如果是要有共識的，他們到現在沒動，但內政部已經函詢很多次，而且這個公文要求他們要回報每年的進度。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:55:08.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:55:18.285000+08:00","text":"好，所以我只是強調啦，做任何事我們支持，但是合法、合理之外，真的還要顧及我們民眾的感受。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:55:18.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:55:19.025000+08:00","text":"不好意思喔！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:55:19.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:55:56.120000+08:00","text":"最後建築法我問簡單兩個問題啦，一個就是建築法第五十六條有委員提議要納入第三方公正單位的審驗制度，而內政部報告直接說已經授權直轄市或縣市政府，可是我們看到全國近5年鄰損的案例非常非常的多，你授權地方政府，但實際上好像……為什麼不由中央來統一？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:55:56.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:02.108000+08:00","text":"我們中央的法令如果可以規定的話，我們整個把它規範好，為什麼不做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:03.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:04.891000+08:00","text":"原因是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:05.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:07.593000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實這樣的條文在……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:07.593000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:09.915000+08:00","text":"簡答，因為我時間已經不夠。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:09.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:20.344000+08:00","text":"簡單來講，過去其實107年曾經討論過，但是當時就引發非常多爭議，就是所謂第三方勘驗的執行單位到底是建築師？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:20.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:21.325000+08:00","text":"土木技師？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:21.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:22.166000+08:00","text":"結構技師？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:22.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:24.227000+08:00","text":"是在什麼樣的程度下去介入？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:24.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:39.221000+08:00","text":"後來因為各個公會的見解也不一，地方政府的見解也不一，所以大家才同意不要放在母法，而是授權地方政府依實務，看哪個階段需要是哪個公會？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:39.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:40.542000+08:00","text":"哪些單位去做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:41.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:47.669000+08:00","text":"這樣的話比較貼近他們的實務，而不要強制在第五十六條直接去加，當時的概念是這樣。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:48.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:56:54.613000+08:00","text":"不是，你說在實務，但在法條中是依據實務給給它一個……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:56:54.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:57:02.038000+08:00","text":"應該這麼說，因為這樣反而給地方政府比較有實際上的權限，因為地方政府本來就有這樣的一個狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:57:02.038000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:57:03.038000+08:00","text":"好，OK，那你了解吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:57:02.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:57:03.099000+08:00","text":"現在地方政府產生的問題很大吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:57:06.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:57:14.485000+08:00","text":"很多所謂的鄰損其實是過程中，而不是在勘驗階段的成果，所謂勘驗是指它過程的結果……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:57:15.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:57:27.492000+08:00","text":"好，OK，其實更大的爭議是對於建設公司要求完繕，這一塊中央可不可以有一個比較明確的法令？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:57:27.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:57:33.829000+08:00","text":"因為這個在各縣市都發生很多的問題，跟包含天坑、各方面的事件。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:57:33.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:57:41.411000+08:00","text":"也跟委員報告，過程當中的問題最難去處理，因為比如像我們……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:57:41.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:57:44.733000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們討論法條的時候再來。是。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:57:45.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:58:01.139000+08:00","text":"最後一題，現在整個建管制度再怎麼完整，沒有人力也是空談，我不知道你們有沒有發現各縣市政府的土木建管人員需求很多，但報到率大概都不到三分之一，這個凸顯什麼問題？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:58:01.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:58:02.200000+08:00","text":"其實它有很多面向的問題，現在建築法規很繁雜也是一個問題，建築實務上……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:58:02.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:58:03.200000+08:00","text":"所以他們不願意來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:58:02.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:58:02.700000+08:00","text":"實務上來講，民間的待遇可能都比較高，這也是一個問題。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:58:02.700000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:58:19.734000+08:00","text":"對啦，待遇是很大的問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:58:19.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:58:20.535000+08:00","text":"部長，待遇有沒有可能調高？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:58:22.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:58:22.917000+08:00","text":"不可能？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:58:23.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:58:24.117000+08:00","text":"公務人員都一致？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:58:24.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:58:48.184000+08:00","text":"其實上個月我們在工程會跟人事總處有開會，我們也有表達一些意見，對於專業的加給，對於職等的調升，或者是對於相關約聘僱人員、勞務承攬人員待遇的提升，我們都有提供一些建議給人總跟工程會。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:58:48.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:04.452000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講了一堆，但是現在我們的公務人員，而且是專業的，我們需求的正式缺額都補不足了，所以我覺得你們可能還是要講一下輕重緩急，不然你一次全部要，它當然不會答應啊！","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:59:04.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:14.157000+08:00","text":"應該這麼說，我們也有包含剛剛講的所謂約聘僱人員，因為有些地方政府會需要用到約聘僱人員，甚至有些是勞務承攬人員，我們都有提供一些建議了。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:59:14.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:21.266000+08:00","text":"好，但是我們還是要繼續爭取啦，不然你這樣問題還是很大嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:59:21.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:23.490000+08:00","text":"沒錯，這個我們還是會持續去爭取。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員欣瑩","start":"2025-06-04T11:59:23.490000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:24.490000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長欣修","start":"2025-06-04T11:59:23.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:23.890000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-06-04T11:59:24.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:24.411000+08:00","text":"謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-06-04T11:59:24.911000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:33.196714+08:00","text":"報告委員會，登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-06-04T11:59:33.496714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:39.496714+08:00","text":"丁學忠委員所提書面質詢，我們列入紀錄，刊登公報。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-06-04T11:59:39.796714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-06-04T11:59:48.368143+08:00","text":"書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":771,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時43分）謝謝主席，本席有請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。我們在討論建築法之前，本席也要跟您討論一下有關最近您引起的中正路改名爭議，如果我沒有聽錯的話，前面好像有些委員在質詢的時候，您對於中正路的改名好像說是依據轉型正義條例，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：是。清除威權象徵是法定義務，在我們的促進轉型正義條例第五條跟第十一條之二裡面有規定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，是依據這個嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們了解很多事情您是有所依據的，您說這個是法定義務，它是條例有規定，但跟法定義務好像不完全等號吧？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有。報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：它是法定義務？"],["劉部長世芳：在第十一條之二裡面寫得非常清楚，它就直接點名在促轉會結束部分階段性任務之後，有關於跟地方制度相關的，包括道路的命名等等，就是由內政部來負責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！由內政部負責，但是法律有規範跟它是法定義務不一樣吧？所以它不見得是法定義務，我跟你講，如果是法定義務的話，我請問你……"],["劉部長世芳：法定任務。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，是任務嘛！不是義務。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：任務跟義務真的不一樣，好，所以是法定任務，那本席就要繼續往下，既然它是一個任務，所以您要來做，其實法律有規定，我們也支持，也應該要這樣做。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是你要做的這個過程，你有先去了解這個做下去，怎麼樣完善嗎？還是你引起整個人民生活，包含地方政府的大混亂，你有去了解嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想是這樣子，第一個，促轉條例第十一條之二通過的時候，距離目前應該是兩年前跟三年前的事情，所以當時這樣規範下來的話，內政部已經先做了一部分的處理，這部分的處理我們在以前有報告整個數據提供參考，就是比較簡易的部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：儘量重點式回答我的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：就是塑像、雕像，或是這個部分能夠移除的就先移除，我所了解移除最多的，很多人都是把塑像移到桃園大溪。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係。我現在是針對路，好不好？就是你現在在執行的路名……"],["劉部長世芳：路的部分在我們委託南臺科技大學裡面，它有提到這是第四個模式，在第四個模式裡面，剛剛我有跟部分委員報告過，目前為止我們統計出來大概會有三百多件。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，我現在要了解的是，我們要做一件事，不管是地方政府、中央政府，大概都會預判怎麼做才會完善，而且很多東西要預估怎麼樣做下去，而不是突然間造成很大混亂，又達不成嘛！我的問題主要是這樣。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我了解委員的用意。所以我有提到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：到目前為止有在進行更改路名的，您知道有……"],["劉部長世芳：臺南市是有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有成功的案例？"],["劉部長世芳：凱達格蘭大道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，只有凱達格蘭大道，我們大家知道，因為它牽扯的住戶，還有用到凱達格蘭大道的身分證或人民生活的太少了嘛！凱達格蘭大道這點，就本席的了解也是它最成功。現在你要求各縣市政府去進行，有沒有……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們不敢要求。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好……"],["劉部長世芳：我特別提到中央政府要跟地方政府溝通。"],["徐委員欣瑩：太好了，對嘛！那你是由下而上，還是由上而下？"],["劉部長世芳：按照地方制度法是由下而上。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！由下而上，那一定是地方有共識，它才會做嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在如果地方沒共識，你會硬推嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，沒有罰則。第二個，我剛剛有提到，轉型正義要顧慮到程序正義、社會溝通。我剛有特別提到，如果造成對立，就表示我們的溝通不是很完整，既然……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，或者是實施得不完整，才會造成一些……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，實施要看各地方政府，因為很多地方政府的街道改名機制有它們的自治準則。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，你剛剛已經講了一定要溝通完整，社會有共識，而且由下而上，目前有任何一個區域符合這樣的情況嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛有跟委員報告過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說臺南市嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：現在我知道的臺南其實更早……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，那就這樣，臺南嘛！你的答案就是臺南嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，更早以前在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：臺南實施的情況你有了解嗎？臺南實施下去也是天怒人怨，而且好像從2022年開始做到現在，前面只做了……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，它更早。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，它更早，它做了170公尺之後就很難往下，黃偉哲市長特別說接下來要以衝擊最小、爭議最少的區域優先逐步推動，不求一次到位，他是希望達成這個目標，但是他也發現不容易，而且現在整個戶政，還有整個地圖系統各方面整個混亂，民眾生活整個受到影響。"],["劉部長世芳：我們還沒有改，怎麼會有混亂呢？有心要推動，慢慢來推動，然後有共識，這是我們基本的想法。所以我剛剛有特別提到，程序正義上一定要合法合規，轉型正義條例已經有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，而且你有講，你絕對不會強制嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：還有社會溝通。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，然後不會強制。"],["劉部長世芳：不要產生那種政黨之間的對立。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，政黨也不會對立啦！"],["劉部長世芳：但是我也要跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在就是不要造成民怨，還有民眾的困擾，我想很多人……"],["劉部長世芳：我不清楚所謂的民眾的困擾是來自於哪裡？第一個，轉型正義條例已經是2017年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！我現在跟你講的是……"],["劉部長世芳：從第8、第9屆的立法委員到現在都有在討論，而且它已經是成案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK、OK，不要浪費時間好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在講的是執行面嘛！所以現在路名更改，難道你不覺得會影響到人民的生活嗎？我沒有問你，我只是要你心裡想一下。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我不用回答。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。這個影響到人民生活非常多，已經有實施的臺南市都發現，哇！不行，緩下來！所以我還是……"],["劉部長世芳：但是它沒有停止啊！它是緩步推動。"],["徐委員欣瑩：緩步……"],["劉部長世芳：能夠有社會共識。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我非常了解，包括……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你認同嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對，臺南市……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我還沒有請你回答，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：所以我才說我們是協助地方政府，我沒有說一步到位啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我也沒說你說一步到位。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們現在是在討論，所以這個部分要地方還有社會有共識，然後才能進行嘛！但是如果強推的結果就是造成……臺南自己有感受到真的不好推。更重要我要講的是，我們做任何事要各方面的完善，包含剛剛也有很多人提到，你的經費大概也要預估一下，我的時間的關係，我就不跟你再往下了，如果真的全國要推，你的經費有沒有到位？你自己要去衡量。再來就是……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，它是用基金預算……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我沒有要你回答。"],["劉部長世芳：對不起。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我有看一下，你知道那個基金現在有多少錢嗎？你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：基金預算不是說有多少錢，基金預算就是本於任務需求，在申請的時候，基金就有一個審查委員會，然後會在編列的時候把它放進去。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是不是用促轉基金嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是，那是國發會主管的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：促轉基金整個裡面有多少錢，你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：那是國發會的，不是說有多少錢，它不是公務預算有編列每一年要執行，基金需要多少錢，它會再撥補進去，跟我們住宅基金是非常相像的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就本席了解，它那個基金好像是從國民黨黨產弄過來的，你確定是撥補的嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：在促轉條例裡面是這樣子沒有錯，而且我所了解是有經費，但是經費有多少，我還需要細查，報告委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣好了，會後請你提供，你剛剛一開始有跟我們報告，全國如果要改，中正路總共有多少條，你估一下要多少錢，全國整個做下去要多少錢，會後你再提供給我們，我相信你現在說不出來要多少錢。"],["劉部長世芳：因為這是要由地方政府報上來，不是由我們去幫它預估，因為每個地方在執行的時候有一些不同的困擾。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在這樣啦……"],["劉部長世芳：以前的臺中市在處理臺灣大道的時候，它們所用的經費是幾百萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要再浪費我的時間了。如果中正路要改名，我問你，臺北市中正區，還有中正國小、中正大學、中正高中，甚至如果經國路也要改的話，經國管理學院、中正一分局，甚至經國號戰機是不是要改？好像不止是內政部，這樣教育部、國防部的部分也都要改吧？是不是都要進行改名？"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是我現在在內政部……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道你的答案一定是這樣。"],["劉部長世芳：我按照促轉條例交代給內政部的業務，我來處理了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以最後針對這個部分，我一個結論，希望內政部不要不管實務，要讓民眾……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，內政部的事情真的是非常多而雜，不是完全「五四三」或者吃飽沒事幹。"],["徐委員欣瑩：中正堂改名應該沒有社會共識吧？你應該就是下命令吧？"],["劉部長世芳：哪裡的中正堂？因為我們只處理……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是中正紀念堂。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我們只有處理街道巷弄，這個是促轉會依據第十一條……"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果地方有「中正」兩個字的，我跟你講，我的選區裡面有一個活動中心叫「中正堂」，他們就反映不勝其擾啊！你們每年都公文去，老實講他們地方沒共識，但還是得回公務單位嘛，所以就有一點糊弄的、草率的也回應了。所以這一塊如果是要有共識的，他們到現在沒動，但內政部已經函詢很多次，而且這個公文要求他們要回報每年的進度。好，所以我只是強調啦，做任何事我們支持，但是合法、合理之外，真的還要顧及我們民眾的感受。","不好意思喔！最後建築法我問簡單兩個問題啦，一個就是建築法第五十六條有委員提議要納入第三方公正單位的審驗制度，而內政部報告直接說已經授權直轄市或縣市政府，可是我們看到全國近5年鄰損的案例非常非常的多，你授權地方政府，但實際上好像……為什麼不由中央來統一？我們中央的法令如果可以規定的話，我們整個把它規範好，為什麼不做？原因是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實這樣的條文在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：簡答，因為我時間已經不夠。"],["吳署長欣修：簡單來講，過去其實107年曾經討論過，但是當時就引發非常多爭議，就是所謂第三方勘驗的執行單位到底是建築師？土木技師？結構技師？是在什麼樣的程度下去介入？後來因為各個公會的見解也不一，地方政府的見解也不一，所以大家才同意不要放在母法，而是授權地方政府依實務，看哪個階段需要是哪個公會？哪些單位去做？這樣的話比較貼近他們的實務，而不要強制在第五十六條直接去加，當時的概念是這樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你說在實務，但在法條中是依據實務給給它一個……"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，因為這樣反而給地方政府比較有實際上的權限，因為地方政府本來就有這樣的一個狀況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，那你了解吧？現在地方政府產生的問題很大吧！"],["吳署長欣修：很多所謂的鄰損其實是過程中，而不是在勘驗階段的成果，所謂勘驗是指它過程的結果……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，其實更大的爭議是對於建設公司要求完繕，這一塊中央可不可以有一個比較明確的法令？因為這個在各縣市都發生很多的問題，跟包含天坑、各方面的事件。"],["吳署長欣修：也跟委員報告，過程當中的問題最難去處理，因為比如像我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我們討論法條的時候再來。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後一題，現在整個建管制度再怎麼完整，沒有人力也是空談，我不知道你們有沒有發現各縣市政府的土木建管人員需求很多，但報到率大概都不到三分之一，這個凸顯什麼問題？"],["吳署長欣修：其實它有很多面向的問題，現在建築法規很繁雜也是一個問題，建築實務上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以他們不願意來？"],["吳署長欣修：實務上來講，民間的待遇可能都比較高，這也是一個問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啦，待遇是很大的問題。部長，待遇有沒有可能調高？不可能？公務人員都一致？"],["吳署長欣修：其實上個月我們在工程會跟人事總處有開會，我們也有表達一些意見，對於專業的加給，對於職等的調升，或者是對於相關約聘僱人員、勞務承攬人員待遇的提升，我們都有提供一些建議給人總跟工程會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你剛剛講了一堆，但是現在我們的公務人員，而且是專業的，我們需求的正式缺額都補不足了，所以我覺得你們可能還是要講一下輕重緩急，不然你一次全部要，它當然不會答應啊！"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，我們也有包含剛剛講的所謂約聘僱人員，因為有些地方政府會需要用到約聘僱人員，甚至有些是勞務承攬人員，我們都有提供一些建議了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，但是我們還是要繼續爭取啦，不然你這樣問題還是很大嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯，這個我們還是會持續去爭取。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","報告委員會，登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","丁學忠委員所提書面質詢，我們列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-24","speakers":["牛煦庭","陳菁徽","顏寬恒","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","黃捷","李柏毅","許宇甄","吳琪銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩","丁學忠"],"page_start":245,"meetingDate":["2025-06-04"],"gazette_id":"1145601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、建築法：(一)審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「建築法第九十一條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查\n委員顏寬恒等21 人擬具「建築法第七十三條條文修正草案」案、 ( 三) 審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai\nTahovecahe 等16人擬具「建築法第九十九條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員黃建賓等16\n人擬具「建築法第五十六條、第五十八條及第八十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)審查委員徐巧芯\n等22人擬具「建築法第八十九條條文修正草案」案、(六)審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「建築法第\n九十七條條文修正草案」案、( 七) 審查委員顏寬恒等17 人擬具「建築法第九十七條條文修正草\n案」案、(八)審查委員林岱樺等17人擬具「建築法第五十四條條文修正草案」案、(九)審查委員\n陳超明等18人擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(十)審查台灣\n民眾黨黨團擬具「建築法第七十七條之二及第九十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二、平均地權條\n例：審查委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「平均地權條例第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1145601_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}