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有請卓院長"},{"start":30.939,"end":47.82,"text":"陳委員好院長好 院長您從12號到明天26號短短兩週當中您要來立法院做六個專題報告辛苦院長了謝謝 這是我們行政的責任我希望能夠把議題講得清楚大家一起來支持"},{"start":48.16,"end":75.008,"text":"我自己也在不到一周當中就跟院長您做這個詢答兩次我想國事如馬擺世待局就是大家辛苦了院長今年四月台灣正值清明節那美國宣布了新的關稅政策四月四日的時候您帶領行政院的同仁開了一個記者會那時候您就知道美國提高關稅的一個重要目的就是要打掉紅色供應鏈"},{"start":76.508,"end":96.715,"text":"所以在行政院的記者會上您提到台灣過去幾年推出的投資台灣三大方案吸引台商回國來投資或是前往東南亞、歐洲或是美洲設廠目的是要符合非紅供應鏈的產業安全需求"},{"start":97.435,"end":123.309,"text":"也就是說除了分散風險之外就是要去除打掉紅色供應鏈我相信行政院知道美方川普總統非常重視這一塊這件事情所以你們才會特別提出來我想先請教卓院長我這樣的理解正確嗎沒有錯 後來也證實在雙方技術性挫傷裡面的一項就是經濟安全他們認為很重要 尤其台灣在"},{"start":124.895,"end":141.214,"text":"地緣政治第一線跟中國非常的接近有很多的產品互相交流密切所以他希望台灣能夠守住這個民主供應鏈的第一發道防線那到目前為止行政院對於去除紅色供應鏈做了哪些努力有沒有成效呢"},{"start":142.026,"end":167.465,"text":"我們有事前事後事中各項包括財政部包括經濟部的一些措施事前我們要加強的審查事中我們要加強的成組成效呢成組我們現在這個成效在目前來看我們一步一步達到的階段性所以現在很多的廠商從中國離開他可能去到南向國家"},{"start":167.935,"end":182.125,"text":"也有可能就回到台灣來那這個就變成我們在未來的供應鏈上會比較安定院長我特別去搜尋一下您對於有關紅色供應鏈的發言今年3月13號您說脫離紅色供應鏈很快就會看到實際作為"},{"start":183.486,"end":207.571,"text":"還說要建立一個民主的產業供應鏈要讓全世界有門國家能夠脫離紅色的供應鏈建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈這些口號聽起來非常的響亮建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈但實際上台灣各個產業對於紅色供應鏈的緊密程度跟脫離程度請問行政院有掌握嗎"},{"start":208.541,"end":233.592,"text":"我們很多的產業各不同的產業包括工具機的產業裡面它還是有過去傳統來有一些中國的零組件院長的意思是說你們掌握我們都有到地方去瞭解那我們希望這個事情我們很希望能夠展現出來一個具體的措施跟進度但是我們也要協助廠商來做市場或是整個供應鏈的一個調整或轉移"},{"start":234.072,"end":241.859,"text":"其實我們財政部跟經濟部在進出口的一些資訊的掌握其實都有針對一些特別異常的一些從大陸進來的產品做一些監控"},{"start":257.293,"end":275.74,"text":"我接下來會有資料請教坦白說這是一個可能會很辛苦甚至很痛苦的一個過程甚至會有壓力會有流失選票的壓力但是我不需要說執政者就是要擔當就是要擔當這樣的事情那請問院長脫離紅色供應鏈的目標什麼時候可以達成你有這個時程或時間點嗎"},{"start":277.622,"end":295.051,"text":"我們會照目前在財政部事前事中事後嚴審的這個方式把他的數據都找出來他審查了多少個這個廠商找到多少貨品我們會循序的去找到他的源頭來改變這個事實那這個目前在進行當中"},{"start":296.011,"end":322.477,"text":"我查詢了行政院各部會最近一次在立法院進行和紅色供應鏈相關的專題報告我發現上一次是2021年經濟委員會有安排相關的議程我拜讀了經濟部國發會國安局還有陸委會的報告很多報告都在談甲外資爭中資中資挖角我國的人才等等其中國發會他的報告裡面提到"},{"start":324.037,"end":349.822,"text":"積極協助台商回流加速供應鏈的重組進一步強化對抗紅色供應鏈的產業動態動能還有要形塑完整的上中下游的產業供應鏈請問院長形塑完整的上中下游的產業供應鏈從2019年開始啟動的台商回流您認為做到了嗎好幾年了"},{"start":351.26,"end":352.509,"text":"我們請國發會來講一下現在的進展"},{"start":354.778,"end":381.589,"text":"我想我們推動台商回流的這個方案裡面最重要就是希望我們在中國大陸的廠商可以回到台灣來生產那我們投資台灣三大方案推動以後我發現其實伺服器還有我們電子五哥的很多的企業都回到台灣來生產然後建立出台灣自主的產業供應鏈是有進度的嗎是的現在已經有兩兆多的投資回到台灣"},{"start":382.409,"end":403.82,"text":"但是我想要跟院長和大家說明我實際看到說可以說是沒有上週諮詢我也有引用這段話我指出這個報導工具機大佬也就是台灣工具機繼林組建工會的名譽理事長許文憲他這樣說下面都是他講的話美國關稅的真正意圖是要圍堵中國製造要各國去除紅色供應鏈"},{"start":404.76,"end":418.905,"text":"結果台灣卻是連工具機組產業都大量使用紅色供應鏈來降低跟零組件來降低它的製造成本對美國來說這是他說的話台灣就是紅色供應鏈的參與者"},{"start":420.345,"end":435.362,"text":"獲利者只要沒有斷掉紅色供應鏈的話美國對台灣藉由關稅的制裁是不會停止的台灣送再多的台積電給美國也是沒有用我今天再請教院長一次您同意許理事長的看法嗎"},{"start":436.292,"end":463.57,"text":"跟委員報告跟委員報告其實徐理事長他本身他也是經營工具機的一個先進你同意他的看法嗎其實他這一席話在工具機的內部也引起了很多的一個討論那事實上我們國產的工具機的這些業者大部分用的都還是以我們國內的這個工具機業者他所生產的這個MIT的這個產品為主所以我想這個部分"},{"start":464.891,"end":486.052,"text":"我要談的是說政府如果沒有處理的話斷掉我國各產業的紅色供應鏈的問題還有零組件取緻紅色供應鏈的嚴重的問題行政院過去說的行訴上中下游的供應鏈就是一個空話就是一個口號治國而且台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合業界為了節省成本"},{"start":486.933,"end":504.738,"text":"那從紅色供應鏈帶上去的領導見報告委員這句話我覺得我們修正一下台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合這句話絕對不是正確這樣子會讓我們在未來對國際非常難以交代美方透過AIT透過美國在來協會他們這些資訊掌握得一清二楚"},{"start":505.518,"end":526.911,"text":"但是沒有說台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合我們就是知道過去傳統上有一些零組件會用到所以我們現在極力在改變這個事件你沒有過苦沉舟的決心去改變這個問題那我想美國降低台灣關稅這個意願就非常低啦所以我還是再請教您一次請問你的目標何時能夠達成呢"},{"start":528.24,"end":553.246,"text":"我們在跟美方談判的時候 談判團隊當談到經濟安全的時候都會把我們現在包括財政部以及國發會剛剛所提的數據都會跟美國表示我們努力的過程是這樣子我們來看一下數字鄭州市 我讀到政責新聞日本今年7月對美出口額跟去年7月同期相比下滑了10.1%請問院長您覺得這對台灣是個警訊嗎"},{"start":557.313,"end":571.765,"text":"世界任何國家經濟情勢的變化我們都會注意日本掉了10.1%院長您知道台灣今年7月對美出國總額跟去年同期相比您知道是增加還是下降呢我們應該是增加的"},{"start":575.058,"end":601.924,"text":"請院長看這個數字我去查了官網網站上的統計數字台灣今年7月跟去年同期相比增幅達62.8%去年7月出口的美國總值是114.5億美元今年7月是186.45億美元和日本的衰退下滑對比台灣反而是增加的但是我想請問院長您認為台灣這樣的成績亮眼嗎你滿意嗎"},{"start":604.312,"end":621.287,"text":"我們對產業的努力非常的肯定但是這個原因就在於美國需要高度的很多AI產品台灣從大陸中國回來之後的廠商從台灣出去都算在台灣的這個產值裡面這個就是造成雙方現在關係必須要談的事情"},{"start":621.647,"end":635.836,"text":"看到的是單一的數字我再請你看總體的數字上一屆簡報是7月同期增加62.8%看起來成績不錯但是如果你把這個相關數字放在總體來看從今年1月到7月跟同期相比"},{"start":636.756,"end":648.472,"text":"我覺得院長你頭也沒要燒因為事實上從今年1月下旬川普就任總統以後台灣出國到美國的總值就開始增加2月增加了65.62%一點都沒有輸給7月但是4月2號"},{"start":653.118,"end":668.182,"text":"川普宣布新的關稅政策後當月的出口總值就只掉到了只增加29.45%可是五月跟六月請院長看卻飆升到87.31%跟90.88%院長認為為什麼五月六月會有這個狀況呢當然四月大家存在一種觀望的態度後來之後"},{"start":677.588,"end":699.586,"text":"可能對方的需求也增加了希望在趕一個時間點上能夠盡量把關稅在比較大家可以預測的情況底下貨品能夠出去所以造成這樣一個所謂搶單塞港的問題答案 我認為個人答案是因為4月9號川普宣布說延後90天實施嘛所以這個業者趕緊趕工啊這個生產出口到美國"},{"start":700.347,"end":720.149,"text":"但是在7月的時候這個數字雖然比同期是增加62.8可是如果你要跟前兩個月相比5月跟6月它開始下滑那你看到這樣的現象跟數字我認為台灣如果真的被課以20%加N的高關稅那出口美國種子勢必會直直落啊請問院長你怎麼解讀這個數字"},{"start":722.113,"end":738.701,"text":"用一個月兩個月三個月個別的調整的數字來看我想不夠精準那我們現在希望能夠跟對美的談判在談判代表團的努力下盡快的穩定下來只有穩定下來我們才能把我們的策略措施能夠全面展開"},{"start":739.481,"end":750.233,"text":"這個數字就是剛剛副總召要你帶頭在床頭看每個月的變化當然是有的非常重要的數字那有關美國關稅衝擊我還是要談到工具機產業有許多勞工受到影響 報載工具機領域有勞斯萊斯支撐的百德基建"},{"start":758.261,"end":776.615,"text":"他已經開始做這個做事休三的無薪假雖然事後百德機械強調訂單調整已經恢復正常的工時可是台中市勞工局卻說業者從8月15日送出來的這個減班休息申請沒有撤回 院長沒有撤回"},{"start":777.415,"end":805.711,"text":"同一篇報導台中的經濟董事長黃明和透露他的下游上中下百家的這個協力廠都淪陷了他不是坐四修三就是坐三修四那個百德董事長謝端木也說他們國內許多客戶的終端產品仍然是以出口美國為主很難擺脫關稅的衝擊請問行政院對於工具機業者的減班休息無薪假"},{"start":806.391,"end":822.103,"text":"掌握到什麼程度呢?檢辦休息無論是因景氣或因關稅勞動部都持續 而且是主動在訪視那面臨這樣的衝擊 行政院怎麼因應 怎麼協助 怎麼輔導請黃部長說明還要去組紅色供應院呢?跟陳委員說明 其實的確工具機是現在幾個產業裡面會比較辛苦的一個產業 這是事實"},{"start":830.748,"end":852.807,"text":"那也是我們看到了現在幾個產業現在減班休息的狀況所以勞動部我們也提出了一個強化版的雇用安定措施讓減班休息的勞工他可能會有這個他不能無薪喔我還要再強調是不能夠無薪我們法規上面是不能無薪的可是他的這個薪資的差額我們會來補貼從五成變成七成"},{"start":855.809,"end":872.082,"text":"這些是警訊你要去面對未來大家說有那麼多的未知無知到現在大家都還不清楚每一個減班休息的廠商他來通報我們都會主動的聯繫跟主動的訪視所以每一家我們都了解他的狀況"},{"start":872.782,"end":894.441,"text":"我想請教卓院長 臺灣面臨關稅大戰產業升級轉型 大力發展AI供電穩定是一個非常重要議題重啟核三的公投結果投票率雖然低但434萬張同意票比起151萬張不同意票高達三倍有別於民進黨緊抱數十年的反非核家園神主牌"},{"start":895.081,"end":921.94,"text":"這是台灣的新的主流民意我相信也是賴政府要的否則賴總統也不會在第一時間說不排除先進核能即刻請裁定進行體檢等等童子賢董事長也說公投結果已經足以彰顯民意期待政府要務實接受這是符合科學趨勢而且也不違背民主進步請問院長您能接受重啟核三的新民意嗎還是你的選擇會跟賴總統不一樣呢"},{"start":924.822,"end":946.592,"text":"對新核能技術的討論我已經講過很多很多次總統也講過很多很多次不是昨天前天才講的雖然公投雖然公投的結果雖然公投的結果對政府不產生任何的拘束力但是我們已經依照核管法的裡面的規定核安會已經提出了第一個審查辦法我們已經依照"},{"start":950.094,"end":950.395,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝卓院長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:26:37.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:26:38.244000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-25T10:26:38.244000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:26:55.939000+08:00","text":"請卓院長備詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:26:55.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:26:56.119000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:26:56.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:26:57.201000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:26:57.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:27:06.572000+08:00","text":"院長，您從12號到明天（26號）短短兩週當中要來立法院做6個專題報告，辛苦院長了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:27:08.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:27:12.800000+08:00","text":"謝謝，這是我們行政的責任，我希望能夠把議題講得清楚，大家一起來支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:27:13.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:27:23.583000+08:00","text":"我自己也在不到一週當中跟院長詢答兩次，我想國事如麻、百事待舉，大家辛苦了。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:27:24.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:28:08.818000+08:00","text":"院長，今年4月臺灣正值清明節，美國宣布了新的關稅政策，4月4日的時候，您帶領行政院的同仁開了一個記者會，那時候您就知道，美國提高關稅的一個重要目的，就是要打掉紅色供應鏈，所以在行政院的記者會上，您提到臺灣過去幾年推出的投資臺灣三大方案，吸引臺商回國來投資，或是前往東南亞、歐洲或是美洲設廠，目的是要符合非紅供應鏈的產業安全需求，也就是說，除了分散風險之外，就是要去除、打掉紅色供應鏈。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:28:08.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:28:17.063000+08:00","text":"我相信行政院知道美方川普總統非常重視這一塊、這件事情，所以你們才會特別提出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:28:17.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:28:21.745000+08:00","text":"我想先請教卓院長，我這樣的理解正確嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:28:21.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:28:40.267000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，後來也證實，在雙方技術性磋商裡面的一項就是經濟安全，他們列為很重要，尤其臺灣在地緣政治第一線，跟中國非常接近，又有很多的產品互相交流密切，所以他希望臺灣能夠守住這個民主供應鏈的第一道防線。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:28:40.267000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:28:41.267000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:28:40.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:28:44.753000+08:00","text":"我請教院長，到目前為止，行政院對於去除紅色供應鏈做了哪些努力？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:28:45.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:28:45.954000+08:00","text":"有沒有成效？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:28:47.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:28:56.853000+08:00","text":"我們有事前、事後、事中各項包括財政部、包括經濟部的一些措施，事前我們要加強審查，事中我們要加強……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:28:58.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:28:58.655000+08:00","text":"成效呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:29:00.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:29:17.939000+08:00","text":"現在這個成效，在目前來看，我們一步一步達到階段性，所以現在很多廠商從中國離開，他可能去到南向國家，也有可能就回到臺灣來，這個就變成我們在未來的供應鏈上會比較安定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:29:18.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:29:38.548000+08:00","text":"院長，我特別去搜尋一下您對於有關紅色供應鏈的發言，今年3月13號，您說脫離紅色供應鏈，很快就會看到實際作為，還說要建立一個民主的產業供應鏈，要讓全世界的友盟國家能夠脫離紅色的供應鏈，建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:29:38.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:29:52.571000+08:00","text":"這些口號聽起來非常的響亮，建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈，但實際上，臺灣各個產業對於紅色供應鏈的緊密程度跟脫離程度，請問行政院有掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:29:53.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:01.344000+08:00","text":"我們很多產業，各不同的產業，包括工具機的產業，過去傳統以來還是有一些中國的零組件……","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:01.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:03.745000+08:00","text":"院長的意思是說你們都有相當的掌握……","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:04.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:18.572000+08:00","text":"我們都有到地方去了解，這個事情我們很希望能夠展現出來一個具體的措施跟進度，但是我們也要協助廠商作市場或是整個供應鏈的調整或轉移。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:18.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:19.572000+08:00","text":"院長，老實說，口號治國是容易……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:19.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:20.572000+08:00","text":"這不是口號，都已經在做，經濟部能夠說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:20.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:21.572000+08:00","text":"但是如果要落實、如果要執行很辛苦。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:21.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:22.572000+08:00","text":"這不是口號。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:19.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:26.839000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實財政部跟經濟部在進出口的資訊掌握，都有針對一些特別異常從大陸進來的產品進行監控。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:42.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:43.514000+08:00","text":"我接下來會有一些資料請教。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:44.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:54.998000+08:00","text":"坦白說，這是一個可能會很辛苦，甚至很痛苦的過程，甚至會有壓力，會有流失選票的壓力，但是我必須要說，執政者就是要擔當這樣的事情。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:56.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:30:59.179000+08:00","text":"請問院長，脫離紅色供應鏈的目標什麼時候可以達成？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:30:59.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:31:00.740000+08:00","text":"你有時程或時間點嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:31:02.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:31:20.031000+08:00","text":"我們會照目前在財政部事前、事中、事後嚴審的這個方式，把它的數據都找出來，審查了多少廠商、找到多少貨品，我們會循序地去找到它的源頭，來改變這個事實，這個目前在進行當中。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:31:21.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:31:44.156000+08:00","text":"院長，我查詢了行政院各部會最近一次在立法院進行和紅色供應鏈相關的專題報告，我發現上一次是2021年在經濟委員會，有安排相關的議程，我拜讀了經濟部、國發會、國安局，還有陸委會的報告，很多報告都在談假外資真中資、中資挖角我國的人才等等。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:31:44.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:02.500000+08:00","text":"其中國發會的報告裡面提到：積極協助臺商回流，加速供應鏈重組，進一步強化對抗紅色供應鏈的產業動能，形塑完整的上、中、下游產業供應鏈。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:02.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:14.202000+08:00","text":"請問院長，形塑完整的上、中、下游產業供應鏈，從2019年開始啟動的臺商回流，您認為做到了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:14.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:14.802000+08:00","text":"好幾年了耶！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:16.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:17.489000+08:00","text":"我們請國發會來講一下現在的進展。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:21.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:23.540000+08:00","text":"好，我們推動臺商回流的方案裡面……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:23.540000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:24.540000+08:00","text":"請簡單說明。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:24.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:42.527000+08:00","text":"最重要就是希望我們在中國大陸的廠商可以回到臺灣來生產，我們投資臺灣三大方案推動以後，我發現其實伺服器，還有我們電子五哥，很多企業都回到臺灣來生產，然後建立起臺灣自主的產業供應鏈。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:42.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:43.688000+08:00","text":"所以你認為是有進度的嗎？是的。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"高副主任委員仙桂","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:44.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:46.589000+08:00","text":"現在已經有兩兆多的投資回到臺灣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:47.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:32:51.331000+08:00","text":"但是我想要跟院長和大家說明，我實際看到的可以說是沒有！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:32:51.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:33:04.778000+08:00","text":"上週質詢我也有引用這段話，我指出這個報導，工具機大老，也就是台灣工具機暨零組件公會名譽理事長許文憲這樣說，下面都是他講的話喔！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:33:04.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:33:19.663000+08:00","text":"美國關稅的真正意圖是要圍堵中國製造，要各國去除紅色供應鏈，結果臺灣卻是連工具機產業都大量使用「紅色供應鏈」零組件來降低它的製造成本。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:33:21.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:33:35.516000+08:00","text":"這是他說的話，對美國來說，臺灣就是紅色供應鏈的參與者、獲利者，只要沒有斷掉紅色供應鏈的話，美國對臺灣藉由關稅的制裁是不會停止的，臺灣送再多的台積電給美國也是沒有用。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:33:36.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:33:40.362000+08:00","text":"我今天再請教院長一次，您同意許理事長的看法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2025-08-25T10:33:41.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:33:48.477000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，許理事長本身也是經營工具機的一個先進，其實他的這一席話……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:33:48.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:33:51.539000+08:00","text":"您同意他的看法嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2025-08-25T10:33:51.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:34:08.550000+08:00","text":"其實他這一席話在工具機的內部也引起了很多討論，事實上，我們國產的工具機業者大部分用的都還是以我們國內工具機業者所生產的MIT產品為主，所以我想這個部分已經在……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:34:09.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:34:26.768000+08:00","text":"我要談的就是政府如果沒有處理、斷掉我國各產業紅色供應鏈的這個問題，還有零組件取自紅色供應鏈的嚴重問題，那行政院過去說的形塑上、中、下游產業供應鏈就是一個空話，就是一個口號治國！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:34:26.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:34:33.273000+08:00","text":"而且臺灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合，業界為了節省成本，從紅色供應鏈大量取得零組件……","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:34:34.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:34:44.116000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這句話我覺得我們修正一下，臺灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合這句話絕對不是正確，這樣子會讓我們在未來對國際非常難以交代喔！","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:34:44.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:34:49.718000+08:00","text":"美方透過AIT（美國在台協會）對這些資訊掌握得一清二楚。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:34:50.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:34:59.864000+08:00","text":"但是沒有說臺灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合，我們就是知道過去傳統上有一些零組件會用到，所以我們現在極力在改變這個事件。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:35:00.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:35:07.409000+08:00","text":"如果行政院沒有破釜沉舟的決心去改變這個問題，我想美國將降低臺灣關稅的意願就非常低。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:35:08.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:35:11.891000+08:00","text":"所以我還是再請教您一次，請問你的目標何時能夠達成呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:35:13.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:35:24.883000+08:00","text":"我們跟美方談判的時候，談判團隊當談到經濟安全的時候，都會把我們現在包括財政部以及國發會剛剛所提的數據跟美國表示，我們努力的過程是這樣子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:35:25.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:35:36.846000+08:00","text":"院長，我們來看一下數字，上週四我讀到這則新聞，日本今年7月對美出口額跟去年7月同期相比下滑了10.1%。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:35:36.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:35:38.246000+08:00","text":"請問院長，您覺得這對臺灣是個警訊嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:35:42.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:35:47.317000+08:00","text":"世界任何國家經濟情勢的變化，我們都會注意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:35:47.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:35:49.099000+08:00","text":"日本掉了10.1%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:35:49.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:35:55.363000+08:00","text":"院長，那麼臺灣今年7月對美出口總額跟去年同期相比，您知道是增加還是下降呢？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:35:55.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:35:56.604000+08:00","text":"我們應該是增加。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:36:00.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:36:23.243000+08:00","text":"請院長看這個數字，我去查了關貿網站上的統計數字，臺灣今年7月跟去年同期相比增幅達62.8%，去年7月出口美國總值是114.51億美元；今年7月是186.45億美元，和日本的衰退下滑對比，臺灣反而是增加的。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:36:23.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:36:26.304000+08:00","text":"但是我想請問院長，您認為臺灣這樣的成績亮眼嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:36:26.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:36:26.924000+08:00","text":"你滿意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:36:29.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:36:46.267000+08:00","text":"我們對產業的努力非常地肯定，但是這個原因就在於美國高度需要很多的AI產品，臺灣從中國回來之後的廠商，從臺灣出去都算在臺灣的產值裡面，這就是造成雙方現在的關係必須要談的事情。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:36:46.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:36:50.329000+08:00","text":"院長，您剛剛看到的是單一數字，我再請你看總體的數字。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:36:50.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:37:27.381000+08:00","text":"上一頁簡報是7月同期增加62.8%，看起來成績不錯，但是如果你把相關數字放在總體來看，從今年1月到7月跟同期相比，我覺得院長，你會「頭殼抱咧燒」，因為事實上從今年1月下旬川普就任總統以後，臺灣出口到美國的總值就開始增加，2月增加了65.62%，一點都沒有輸給7月，但是4月2號川普宣布新的關稅政策後，當月的出口總值就只增加29.45%，可是5月跟6月，請院長看，卻飆升到87.31%跟90.88%。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:37:27.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:37:28.941000+08:00","text":"院長認為為什麼5月、6月會有這個狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:37:28.941000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:37:29.941000+08:00","text":"為什麼會飆升？","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:37:29.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:37:54.938000+08:00","text":"當然4月大家存在一種觀望的態度，之後可能對方的需求也增加了，希望在趕一個時間點上，能夠儘量在關稅大家可以預測的情況底下貨品能夠出去，所以造成所謂搶單、塞港的問題。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:37:55.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:38:00.223000+08:00","text":"院長，我個人認為答案是，因為4月9號川普宣布延後90天實施嘛……是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:38:00.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:38:23.287000+08:00","text":"所以業者趕緊趕工生產出口到美國，在7月的時候這個數字雖然比同期增加62.8%，可是如果你要跟前兩個月（5月跟6月）相比，它開始下滑，你看到這樣的現象，我認為臺灣如果真的被課以20%加N的高關稅，出口美國總值勢必會直直落啊！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:38:24.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:38:25.129000+08:00","text":"請問院長，你怎麼解讀這個數字？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:38:27.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:38:43.701000+08:00","text":"用1個月、2個月、3個月，個別調整的數字來看，我想不夠精準，我們現在希望對美的談判，在談判代表團的努力下能夠儘快地穩定下來，只有穩定下來才能夠把我們的策略、措施全面展開。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:38:44.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:38:48.105000+08:00","text":"院長，這個數字就是剛剛傅總召要你帶回去放在床頭看的數字……","quality":0.654},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:38:48.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:38:49.567000+08:00","text":"是啦，但是每個月的變化當然是有的。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:38:49.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:38:50.688000+08:00","text":"這也是非常重要的數字。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:38:51.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:39:20.254000+08:00","text":"有關美國關稅衝擊，我還是要談到工具機產業，有許多勞工受到影響，報載工具機領域有勞斯萊斯之稱的百德機械，它已經開始做四休三的無薪假，雖然事後百德機械強調訂單調整已經恢復正常的工時，可是臺中市勞工局卻說業者從8月15日送出來的減班休息申請沒有撤回。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:39:20.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:39:21.594000+08:00","text":"院長，沒有撤回喔！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:39:22.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:39:46.909000+08:00","text":"同一篇報導，台中精機的董事長黃明和透露，他的下游上百家協力廠都淪陷，不是做四休三，就是做三休四；百德董事長謝瑞木也說：他們國內許多客戶的終端產品，仍然是以出口美國為主，很難擺脫關稅的衝擊。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:39:46.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:39:52.492000+08:00","text":"請問行政院對於工具機業者的減班休息、無薪假，掌握到什麼程度呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:39:53.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:39:58.476000+08:00","text":"減班休息不論是因景氣或因關稅，勞動部都持續而且主動在訪視，是不是請洪部長能夠說明？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:39:59.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:03.060000+08:00","text":"這樣的衝擊，行政院怎麼因應、怎麼協助及怎麼輔導？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:03.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:03.200000+08:00","text":"請洪部長說明。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:03.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:04.261000+08:00","text":"還要去除紅色供應鏈呢！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:04.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:07.103000+08:00","text":"跟陳委員說明，其實工具機的確是現在幾個產業裡面會比較辛苦的一個產業，這是事實。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:16.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:29.960000+08:00","text":"我們也看到幾個產業現在減班休息的狀況，所以勞動部也提出了一個強化版的僱用安定措施，讓減班休息的勞工，他不能無薪哦！","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:30.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:37.787000+08:00","text":"我還是要再強調是不能夠無薪的，法規上面是不能無薪的，可是他薪資的差額，我們會來補貼，從五成變成七成……","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:40.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:43.812000+08:00","text":"部長，這些是警訊，你要去面對啦！是。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:43.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:47.835000+08:00","text":"大家說未來有那麼多未知、無知，到現在大家都還不清楚……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:48.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:57.082000+08:00","text":"委員，每一個減班休息的廠商來通報，我們都會主動聯繫跟主動訪視，所以每一家我們都了解他的狀況。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:57.082000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:40:58.082000+08:00","text":"部長，謝謝你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:40:57.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:41:11.013000+08:00","text":"我想請教卓院長，臺灣面臨關稅大戰，產業升級轉型、大力發展AI，供電穩定是一個非常重要的議題，重啟核三的公投結果，投票率雖然低，但434萬張同意票哦！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:41:11.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:41:30.649000+08:00","text":"比起151萬張不同意票高達三倍，有別於民進黨緊抱數十年的非核家園神主牌，這是臺灣新的主流民意，我相信也是賴政府要的，否則賴總統也不會在第一時間說，不排除先進核能，即刻請台電進行體檢等等。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:41:31.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:41:42.217000+08:00","text":"童子賢董事長也說，公投結果已經足以彰顯民意，期待政府要務實接受，這是符合科學趨勢，而且也不違背民主進步。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:41:42.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:41:46.460000+08:00","text":"請問院長，您能接受重啟核三的新民意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:41:46.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:41:46.920000+08:00","text":"還是你的選擇會跟賴總統不一樣呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:41:49.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:00.187000+08:00","text":"對新核能技術的討論，我已經講過很多很多次，總統也講過很多很多次，不是昨天、前天才講的，雖然公投的結果……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:42:00.187000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:01.568000+08:00","text":"請院長面對民意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:42:01.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:11.232000+08:00","text":"雖然公投的結果對政府不產生任何的拘束力，但是我們已經依照核管法裡面的規定，核安會已經提出了第一個審查辦法……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:42:11.232000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:12.232000+08:00","text":"我們準備好啦，立法院幫你們準備好啦，給你們台階下啊！","quality":0.087},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:42:12.232000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:13.232000+08:00","text":"我們已經依照兩個必須的第一必須，核安會已經提出了它的程序問題，緊接著下去……","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:42:13.232000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:14.232000+08:00","text":"請院長要面對民意……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-25T10:42:14.232000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:15.232000+08:00","text":"所以我說我尊重公投，我也相信科學，我們一切以科學為依據，謝謝委員。","quality":0.069},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2025-08-25T10:42:15.232000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:16.232000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-25T10:42:15.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:15.395000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-25T10:42:15.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-25T10:42:22.466429+08:00","text":"接下來請王定宇委員質詢，王委員質詢完畢後，休息10分鐘。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（10時26分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長好。院長，您從12號到明天（26號）短短兩週當中要來立法院做6個專題報告，辛苦院長了。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，這是我們行政的責任，我希望能夠把議題講得清楚，大家一起來支持。"],["陳委員昭姿：我自己也在不到一週當中跟院長詢答兩次，我想國事如麻、百事待舉，大家辛苦了。","院長，今年4月臺灣正值清明節，美國宣布了新的關稅政策，4月4日的時候，您帶領行政院的同仁開了一個記者會，那時候您就知道，美國提高關稅的一個重要目的，就是要打掉紅色供應鏈，所以在行政院的記者會上，您提到臺灣過去幾年推出的投資臺灣三大方案，吸引臺商回國來投資，或是前往東南亞、歐洲或是美洲設廠，目的是要符合非紅供應鏈的產業安全需求，也就是說，除了分散風險之外，就是要去除、打掉紅色供應鏈。我相信行政院知道美方川普總統非常重視這一塊、這件事情，所以你們才會特別提出來。我想先請教卓院長，我這樣的理解正確嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，後來也證實，在雙方技術性磋商裡面的一項就是經濟安全，他們列為很重要，尤其臺灣在地緣政治第一線，跟中國非常接近，又有很多的產品互相交流密切，所以他希望臺灣能夠守住這個民主供應鏈的第一道防線。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。我請教院長，到目前為止，行政院對於去除紅色供應鏈做了哪些努力？有沒有成效？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有事前、事後、事中各項包括財政部、包括經濟部的一些措施，事前我們要加強審查，事中我們要加強……"],["陳委員昭姿：成效呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在這個成效，在目前來看，我們一步一步達到階段性，所以現在很多廠商從中國離開，他可能去到南向國家，也有可能就回到臺灣來，這個就變成我們在未來的供應鏈上會比較安定。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，我特別去搜尋一下您對於有關紅色供應鏈的發言，今年3月13號，您說脫離紅色供應鏈，很快就會看到實際作為，還說要建立一個民主的產業供應鏈，要讓全世界的友盟國家能夠脫離紅色的供應鏈，建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈。這些口號聽起來非常的響亮，建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈，但實際上，臺灣各個產業對於紅色供應鏈的緊密程度跟脫離程度，請問行政院有掌握嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很多產業，各不同的產業，包括工具機的產業，過去傳統以來還是有一些中國的零組件……"],["陳委員昭姿：院長的意思是說你們都有相當的掌握……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都有到地方去了解，這個事情我們很希望能夠展現出來一個具體的措施跟進度，但是我們也要協助廠商作市場或是整個供應鏈的調整或轉移。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，老實說，口號治國是容易……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是口號，都已經在做，經濟部能夠說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是如果要落實、如果要執行很辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是口號。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實財政部跟經濟部在進出口的資訊掌握，都有針對一些特別異常從大陸進來的產品進行監控。"],["陳委員昭姿：我接下來會有一些資料請教。坦白說，這是一個可能會很辛苦，甚至很痛苦的過程，甚至會有壓力，會有流失選票的壓力，但是我必須要說，執政者就是要擔當這樣的事情。","請問院長，脫離紅色供應鏈的目標什麼時候可以達成？你有時程或時間點嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會照目前在財政部事前、事中、事後嚴審的這個方式，把它的數據都找出來，審查了多少廠商、找到多少貨品，我們會循序地去找到它的源頭，來改變這個事實，這個目前在進行當中。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，我查詢了行政院各部會最近一次在立法院進行和紅色供應鏈相關的專題報告，我發現上一次是2021年在經濟委員會，有安排相關的議程，我拜讀了經濟部、國發會、國安局，還有陸委會的報告，很多報告都在談假外資真中資、中資挖角我國的人才等等。其中國發會的報告裡面提到：積極協助臺商回流，加速供應鏈重組，進一步強化對抗紅色供應鏈的產業動能，形塑完整的上、中、下游產業供應鏈。請問院長，形塑完整的上、中、下游產業供應鏈，從2019年開始啟動的臺商回流，您認為做到了嗎？好幾年了耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請國發會來講一下現在的進展。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，我們推動臺商回流的方案裡面……"],["陳委員昭姿：請簡單說明。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。最重要就是希望我們在中國大陸的廠商可以回到臺灣來生產，我們投資臺灣三大方案推動以後，我發現其實伺服器，還有我們電子五哥，很多企業都回到臺灣來生產，然後建立起臺灣自主的產業供應鏈。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以你認為是有進度的嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。現在已經有兩兆多的投資回到臺灣。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我想要跟院長和大家說明，我實際看到的可以說是沒有！上週質詢我也有引用這段話，我指出這個報導，工具機大老，也就是台灣工具機暨零組件公會名譽理事長許文憲這樣說，下面都是他講的話喔！美國關稅的真正意圖是要圍堵中國製造，要各國去除紅色供應鏈，結果臺灣卻是連工具機產業都大量使用「紅色供應鏈」零組件來降低它的製造成本。這是他說的話，對美國來說，臺灣就是紅色供應鏈的參與者、獲利者，只要沒有斷掉紅色供應鏈的話，美國對臺灣藉由關稅的制裁是不會停止的，臺灣送再多的台積電給美國也是沒有用。我今天再請教院長一次，您同意許理事長的看法嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，許理事長本身也是經營工具機的一個先進，其實他的這一席話……"],["陳委員昭姿：您同意他的看法嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：其實他這一席話在工具機的內部也引起了很多討論，事實上，我們國產的工具機業者大部分用的都還是以我們國內工具機業者所生產的MIT產品為主，所以我想這個部分已經在……"],["陳委員昭姿：我要談的就是政府如果沒有處理、斷掉我國各產業紅色供應鏈的這個問題，還有零組件取自紅色供應鏈的嚴重問題，那行政院過去說的形塑上、中、下游產業供應鏈就是一個空話，就是一個口號治國！而且臺灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合，業界為了節省成本，從紅色供應鏈大量取得零組件……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這句話我覺得我們修正一下，臺灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合這句話絕對不是正確，這樣子會讓我們在未來對國際非常難以交代喔！"],["陳委員昭姿：美方透過AIT（美國在台協會）對這些資訊掌握得一清二楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是沒有說臺灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合，我們就是知道過去傳統上有一些零組件會用到，所以我們現在極力在改變這個事件。"],["陳委員昭姿：如果行政院沒有破釜沉舟的決心去改變這個問題，我想美國將降低臺灣關稅的意願就非常低。所以我還是再請教您一次，請問你的目標何時能夠達成呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟美方談判的時候，談判團隊當談到經濟安全的時候，都會把我們現在包括財政部以及國發會剛剛所提的數據跟美國表示，我們努力的過程是這樣子。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，我們來看一下數字，上週四我讀到這則新聞，日本今年7月對美出口額跟去年7月同期相比下滑了10.1%。請問院長，您覺得這對臺灣是個警訊嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：世界任何國家經濟情勢的變化，我們都會注意。"],["陳委員昭姿：日本掉了10.1%。院長，那麼臺灣今年7月對美出口總額跟去年同期相比，您知道是增加還是下降呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們應該是增加。"],["陳委員昭姿：請院長看這個數字，我去查了關貿網站上的統計數字，臺灣今年7月跟去年同期相比增幅達62.8%，去年7月出口美國總值是114.51億美元；今年7月是186.45億美元，和日本的衰退下滑對比，臺灣反而是增加的。但是我想請問院長，您認為臺灣這樣的成績亮眼嗎？你滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對產業的努力非常地肯定，但是這個原因就在於美國高度需要很多的AI產品，臺灣從中國回來之後的廠商，從臺灣出去都算在臺灣的產值裡面，這就是造成雙方現在的關係必須要談的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，您剛剛看到的是單一數字，我再請你看總體的數字。上一頁簡報是7月同期增加62.8%，看起來成績不錯，但是如果你把相關數字放在總體來看，從今年1月到7月跟同期相比，我覺得院長，你會「頭殼抱咧燒」，因為事實上從今年1月下旬川普就任總統以後，臺灣出口到美國的總值就開始增加，2月增加了65.62%，一點都沒有輸給7月，但是4月2號川普宣布新的關稅政策後，當月的出口總值就只增加29.45%，可是5月跟6月，請院長看，卻飆升到87.31%跟90.88%。院長認為為什麼5月、6月會有這個狀況？為什麼會飆升？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然4月大家存在一種觀望的態度，之後可能對方的需求也增加了，希望在趕一個時間點上，能夠儘量在關稅大家可以預測的情況底下貨品能夠出去，所以造成所謂搶單、塞港的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，我個人認為答案是，因為4月9號川普宣布延後90天實施嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以業者趕緊趕工生產出口到美國，在7月的時候這個數字雖然比同期增加62.8%，可是如果你要跟前兩個月（5月跟6月）相比，它開始下滑，你看到這樣的現象，我認為臺灣如果真的被課以20%加N的高關稅，出口美國總值勢必會直直落啊！請問院長，你怎麼解讀這個數字？"],["卓院長榮泰：用1個月、2個月、3個月，個別調整的數字來看，我想不夠精準，我們現在希望對美的談判，在談判代表團的努力下能夠儘快地穩定下來，只有穩定下來才能夠把我們的策略、措施全面展開。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，這個數字就是剛剛傅總召要你帶回去放在床頭看的數字……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啦，但是每個月的變化當然是有的。"],["陳委員昭姿：這也是非常重要的數字。有關美國關稅衝擊，我還是要談到工具機產業，有許多勞工受到影響，報載工具機領域有勞斯萊斯之稱的百德機械，它已經開始做四休三的無薪假，雖然事後百德機械強調訂單調整已經恢復正常的工時，可是臺中市勞工局卻說業者從8月15日送出來的減班休息申請沒有撤回。院長，沒有撤回喔！同一篇報導，台中精機的董事長黃明和透露，他的下游上百家協力廠都淪陷，不是做四休三，就是做三休四；百德董事長謝瑞木也說：他們國內許多客戶的終端產品，仍然是以出口美國為主，很難擺脫關稅的衝擊。請問行政院對於工具機業者的減班休息、無薪假，掌握到什麼程度呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：減班休息不論是因景氣或因關稅，勞動部都持續而且主動在訪視，是不是請洪部長能夠說明？"],["陳委員昭姿：這樣的衝擊，行政院怎麼因應、怎麼協助及怎麼輔導？"],["卓院長榮泰：請洪部長說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：還要去除紅色供應鏈呢！"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，其實工具機的確是現在幾個產業裡面會比較辛苦的一個產業，這是事實。我們也看到幾個產業現在減班休息的狀況，所以勞動部也提出了一個強化版的僱用安定措施，讓減班休息的勞工，他不能無薪哦！我還是要再強調是不能夠無薪的，法規上面是不能無薪的，可是他薪資的差額，我們會來補貼，從五成變成七成……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這些是警訊，你要去面對啦！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：大家說未來有那麼多未知、無知，到現在大家都還不清楚……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，每一個減班休息的廠商來通報，我們都會主動聯繫跟主動訪視，所以每一家我們都了解他的狀況。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，謝謝你。我想請教卓院長，臺灣面臨關稅大戰，產業升級轉型、大力發展AI，供電穩定是一個非常重要的議題，重啟核三的公投結果，投票率雖然低，但434萬張同意票哦！比起151萬張不同意票高達三倍，有別於民進黨緊抱數十年的非核家園神主牌，這是臺灣新的主流民意，我相信也是賴政府要的，否則賴總統也不會在第一時間說，不排除先進核能，即刻請台電進行體檢等等。童子賢董事長也說，公投結果已經足以彰顯民意，期待政府要務實接受，這是符合科學趨勢，而且也不違背民主進步。請問院長，您能接受重啟核三的新民意嗎？還是你的選擇會跟賴總統不一樣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：對新核能技術的討論，我已經講過很多很多次，總統也講過很多很多次，不是昨天、前天才講的，雖然公投的結果……"],["陳委員昭姿：請院長面對民意。"],["卓院長榮泰：雖然公投的結果對政府不產生任何的拘束力，但是我們已經依照核管法裡面的規定，核安會已經提出了第一個審查辦法……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們準備好啦，立法院幫你們準備好啦，給你們台階下啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經依照兩個必須的第一必須，核安會已經提出了它的程序問題，緊接著下去……"],["陳委員昭姿：請院長要面對民意……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說我尊重公投，我也相信科學，我們一切以科學為依據，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","接下來請王定宇委員質詢，王委員質詢完畢後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}