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在這邊有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":23.358,"end":49.148,"text":"問問員好院長好我在這邊很快講幾個重點第一個就是我們知道其實一百一十四年我們中央政府總預算案可以說是創下歷史新高那麼在一百一十四年我們通過了兩兆九千兩百五十億比十年前的預算多了一兆什麼叫一兆的概念就是一萬個億那麼如果我們平均台灣兩千四百"},{"start":50.628,"end":75.754,"text":"2340萬的人口的話平均每個人每年交給政府12.7萬的管理費一家四口大概就是交了差不多50萬的管理費給政府去管理去治理可是你們看看民進黨政府執政這九年大概是揮霍誠信所以就不知道說要量入為出要勤儉持家還記得這個童子賢董事長他之前還在講"},{"start":76.354,"end":99.932,"text":"我們明明就可以花一塊多的電的成本去買核電你偏偏要用這個貴了四五倍的錢去買綠電去製造綠電然後或者是說兩三倍的錢去買天然氣所以由此可見現在賴政府就是不會持家卓院長您認為您是個好管家嗎您會持家嗎您會量入為出嗎"},{"start":100.868,"end":129.003,"text":"我們真的量入為出啊而且國家的經濟成長是相當明顯的我們今年已經突破26兆的整體GDP說實在話 您認為您會執交我還真的是覺得你是往臉上貼金我們知道現在民眾普遍認為這一年來賴總統上任這一年多來台灣是風不調雨 不順 國不安我們看到昨日"},{"start":129.923,"end":139.451,"text":"著內閣的政績似乎是只有政治惡鬥搞大罷免尤其是八二三之後大家其實民眾期待要重新組閣那卓院長你會繼續留任嗎"},{"start":140.928,"end":161.374,"text":"我有向總統提出應該負起政治責任總統希望把過去的工作能夠繼續的延續也未來破壞新的計畫希望局勢能夠穩定下來如果說您繼續留任大概也就是老狗並不做什麼新把戲未來就是跟立法院的互動仍然是自愛難行 復印 釋懈到不執行"},{"start":162.094,"end":177.344,"text":"都是被動的對行政院來講都是被動的其實呢在這一次行政院這邊提出了追加預算就本席看來基本上根本就是不合法違法我們知道其實提出追加預算最重要的法源依據是什麼"},{"start":179.307,"end":202.932,"text":"预算法第七十几条预算法七十九条跟八十条尤其是追加预算的预算法在七十九条里面讲得很清楚有四个要件而在四个要件里面大概我认为除了我们现在讲的要补贴禁法补偿条例还有军人以及海巡人员的这些"},{"start":204.592,"end":225.524,"text":"加擠這個預算經費是可以符合現在的預算法第79條第3項第4項已有關法律應補列追加預算其餘的部分現在你行政院提出的施政計畫這100多億根本就不符合預算法第79條的規定啊請問是有發生什麼重大事故嗎"},{"start":227.449,"end":251.224,"text":"我們有發生重大事故嗎 我們的經費有超過法定預算的編列嗎三足預算過於龐大 集中特定項目不准留用這就是重大事故 所以請教卓院長我們過去曾有前例 在過往的時候 行政立法兩院曾經用過這一條來解決預算上面的問題所以我想請問 對卓院長您來說 什麼樣子的三減比例才叫做合理的比例"},{"start":251.912,"end":271.26,"text":"我從來不以比例來衡量是一毛都不能刪嗎所以我們這次刪的已經是創下才總共3%啦這比過去的三減預算還要少很多所以我要講的就是說聽我講完我要講的就是說這次你們所提的預算基本上是不符合"},{"start":271.86,"end":284.008,"text":"符合預算法裡面第79條所講的因為重大事故發生重大事故經費超過法定預算好我們在這邊呢很快再舉幾個例子因為其他的委員其實也都講了我就不再重複"},{"start":285.578,"end":302.233,"text":"我要特别讲就是以这个中选会的这个案子来说你明明他过去办理选举罢免共同的经费全部都是透过动用第二预备金而且你们已经也核定了现在又再重新编列追加预算这样合理吗"},{"start":303.483,"end":323.739,"text":"你們是想要透露嗎 我剛剛答覆過了第二位備軍有他更法定需要的用途沒有委員形容這個是救命點那如果追加預算通過的話 我們就歸電第二 你這個追加預算的前提是什麼你要有一個法定預算 你才能追加"},{"start":324.58,"end":346.132,"text":"你中選會之前根本沒有編這筆預算你怎麼追加這就是犯了邏輯的錯誤我們要注意郭院長 我要講就是說您回去好好去讀一下什麼叫追加預算它前提就是要有一個法定預算你有新增業務的號才能夠追加預算所以中選會的這個編列根本也是違法的追加預算編列也是違法的然後話再說回來"},{"start":347.733,"end":364.33,"text":"對於地方性的補助款我們這次你們提出來要追加636億我要再次強調立法院從來沒有刪過地方政府的一般性補助款當時就是依照地方政府的一般性補助款所通過的在"},{"start":365.491,"end":380.282,"text":"總統也都已經公告了所以這個是你們自己行政院你們不自己不把這個636億自己去做機關裡面的內部的這個雲芝而是把這個三姐全部都轉嫁到地方政府去我要講的就是這樣子的做法"},{"start":381.022,"end":397.397,"text":"是非常遏止根本就是違法的當然因為我想在立法院這邊大家還是有很多選區委員大家已經看到地方政府現在受災受難很多的弱勢的民眾是非常非常辛苦的所以"},{"start":398.41,"end":423.642,"text":"即便我再怎麼不認同我認為這個根本就是違法的追加可是如果說未來假設有通過的話我想這個部分要告訴清楚告訴卓院長這並不代表說你們是合法的這是違法的編列我還在強調像違法的編列而如果說這個通過的話我們想講就是說你們現在所作所為你們就是一個國家級的擄人勒鼠你們"},{"start":425.426,"end":451.411,"text":"就是把這個地方政府把這些弱勢民眾當成你們的政治肉票然後用來威脅國會這是非常非常糟糕的一件事情什麼叫做擄人勒鼠我覺得你們現在行政院做的就是這樣的事情好 然後我最後還要再講就是你們就算是認為說有追加預算的必要請主席上 不好意思你們這次追加預算"},{"start":456.806,"end":484.104,"text":"你們這次追加預算的方式有比照中央政府總預算的編列方式嗎有啊 有嗎我要講好 你們有提供三個表格嗎你們有提供中央政府機關稅出二級用途科目分析表嗎你們有提出中央政府機關資本支出分析表嗎你們有提出中央政府各機關資本支出分析總表嗎"},{"start":485.876,"end":500.995,"text":"我們都依照我告訴你我們沒有看到我們立法院預算中心也沒有看到所以你們根本沒有依照預算法第82條裡面追加預算的編造審議及執行程序要准用總預算的規定"},{"start":501.957,"end":516.144,"text":"我不知道主席你是怎麼把關的但是坦白說你們透過你們這樣子的這個編例算的方式真的是非常的簡略粗暴草率因為我們看不出來你們現在這個用的經費是用在什麼地方更何況我剛講了"},{"start":517.265,"end":536.675,"text":"追加預算重要是他要有重大事故發生重大事故你們哪一個項目的內容裡面說你們是發生了什麼重大的事故因為他有天災人禍或是什麼嗎唯一有可能性就是因為你們自己這個覺得說你們不服氣立法院所給你們三個預算不是是因為執行困難"},{"start":538.063,"end":554.594,"text":"是真的過去難道都沒有這個預算被刪減嗎沒有刪減沒有刪減這麼多已經這是過去是已經要翻頁了你們當初提起了復議而且復議也被我們否決了所以這個根本不構成追加預算的理由好到最後我要講就是"},{"start":556.772,"end":584.378,"text":"我很遺憾我看到你們這次所編的預算真的是不僅預算回編不該編的項目譬如說人事費的項目本來不該編你們也編然後呢一些這個雞毛蒜皮一些小錢你們也是編剛剛賴思榜委員已經講得很清楚所以我在這邊要講我會嚴格把關你們的最佳預算不該通過的就不通過好以上謝謝好謝謝翁曉琳委員的質詢謝謝謝謝卓院長相關部會所長備詢謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:38:25.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:38:26.711000+08:00","text":"主席好，在這邊有請卓院長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-26T11:38:26.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:38:27.392000+08:00","text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:38:48.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:38:48.358000+08:00","text":"翁委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:38:48.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:38:49.198000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:38:49.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:39:10.066000+08:00","text":"我在這邊很快講幾個重點，第一個，我們知道其實114年中央政府總預算案可以說是創下歷史新高，114年我們通過了2兆9,250億，比十年前的預算多了1兆，什麼叫1兆的概念？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:39:10.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:39:26.951000+08:00","text":"就是1萬個億，臺灣人口如果是2,340萬的話，平均每個人每年交給政府12.7萬的管理費，一家四口大概就是交了差不多50萬的管理費給政府去管理、去治理。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:39:27.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:39:59.227000+08:00","text":"可是你們看看，民進黨政府執政這九年大概是揮霍成性，不知道要量入為出、要勤儉持家，記得童子賢董事長之前還在講，我們明明就可以花一塊多的成本去買核電，你偏偏要用貴了四、五倍的錢去買綠電、去製造綠電，或者是兩、三倍的錢去買天然氣，由此可見，現在賴政府就是不會持家。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:39:59.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:03.010000+08:00","text":"卓院長，您認為您是個好管家嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:03.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:04.071000+08:00","text":"您會持家嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:04.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:04.932000+08:00","text":"您會量入為出嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:05.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:07.429000+08:00","text":"我們真的量入為出，而且國家的經濟……是嗎？","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:07.429000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:08.429000+08:00","text":"我們創下了有史以來最高的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:08.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:12.091000+08:00","text":"國家的經濟成長是相當明顯的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:12.091000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:13.512000+08:00","text":"我們創下了有史以來通過最高的預算。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:13.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:16.153000+08:00","text":"我們今年已經突破26兆的整體GDP。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:16.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:44.451000+08:00","text":"我要講一下，說實在話，您認為您會持家，我還真的覺得你是往臉上貼金，我們知道現在民眾普遍認為賴總統上任這一年多來，臺灣是風不調、雨不順、國不泰、民不安，我們看到卓內閣的政績，似乎只有政治惡鬥、搞大罷免，尤其是823之後，其實民眾期待要重新組閣，卓院長會繼續留任嗎？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:45.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:56.531000+08:00","text":"我有向總統提出應該負起政治責任，總統希望把過去的工作能夠繼續延續，也未來擘畫新的計畫，希望局勢能夠穩定下來。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:56.531000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:40:57.531000+08:00","text":"好，總之就是你會被慰留嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:40:56.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:41:00.672000+08:00","text":"而本席的看法是，如果您繼續留任，大概也就是老狗變不出什麼新把戲啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:41:00.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:41:06.354000+08:00","text":"未來跟立法院的互動仍然是窒礙難行，大概就是覆議、釋憲，然後不執行這幾個套路。","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:41:07.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:41:09.476000+08:00","text":"這都是被動的，這對行政院來講都是被動的。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:41:09.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:41:22.344000+08:00","text":"我現在要講的是，其實這一次行政院提出了追加預算，就本席看來，基本上根本就是不合法、違法，我們知道提出追加預算最重要的法源依據是什麼，是依據什麼？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:41:24.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:41:25.167000+08:00","text":"預算法第七十幾條。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:41:26.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:41:28.348000+08:00","text":"是預算法第七十九條跟第八十條嘛，對不對？","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:41:29.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:07.642000+08:00","text":"尤其追加預算在預算法第七十九條裡面講得很清楚，有四個要件，而這四個要件裡面，我認為除了我們現在講的要補貼禁伐補償，以及軍人、海巡人員加給的預算經費是可以符合預算法第七十九條第四項「依有關法律應補列追加預算者」外，其餘的部分，現在行政院提出的施政計畫，這一百多億根本就不符合預算法第七十九條的規定啊！","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:09.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:10.524000+08:00","text":"請問有發生什麼重大事故嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:12.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:13.710000+08:00","text":"我們有發生重大事故嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:13.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:17.272000+08:00","text":"我們的經費有超過法定預算的編列嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:17.272000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:18.272000+08:00","text":"你們提出的追加預算……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:18.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:21.074000+08:00","text":"刪除預算過於龐大，集中特定項目，不准流用……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:21.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:22.055000+08:00","text":"這個叫做重大事故？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:22.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:22.495000+08:00","text":"所以請教……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:23.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:30.580000+08:00","text":"這就是重大的事故，我們過去曾有前例，在過往的時候，行政、立法兩院曾經用過這一條來解決預算上面的問題。","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:30.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:36.064000+08:00","text":"我想請問，對卓院長來說，什麼樣子的刪減比率才叫做合理的比率？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:36.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:39.653000+08:00","text":"我從來不以比率來衡量。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:39.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:43.195000+08:00","text":"是一毛都不能刪嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:43.195000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:44.195000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，我剛剛說過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:43.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:47.596000+08:00","text":"我們這次刪的已經是創下……","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:47.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:48.596000+08:00","text":"不要用刪減……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:48.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:48.537000+08:00","text":"才總共3%啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:48.537000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:49.537000+08:00","text":"刪減比率……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:48.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:49.577000+08:00","text":"比過去的刪減預算還要少很多。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:49.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:42:51.458000+08:00","text":"刪減比率不是拿來競爭用的。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:42:51.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:04.225000+08:00","text":"聽我講完，我要講的是，這次你們所提的預算，基本上是不符合預算法第七十九條所講的，因為發生重大事故，經費超過法定預算。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:04.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:09.008000+08:00","text":"我們在這邊很快地再舉幾個例子，因為其他的委員也都講了，我就不再重複。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:10.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:27.052000+08:00","text":"我要特別講的是，以中選會的這個案子來說，明明過去辦理選舉、罷免、公投的經費全部都是透過動用第二預備金，而且你們已經也核定了，現在又在重新編列追加預算，這樣合理嗎？","quality":0.575},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:27.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:28.483000+08:00","text":"剛剛我已經答復過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:28.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:30.945000+08:00","text":"你們是想要偷渡嗎？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:30.945000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:31.945000+08:00","text":"你們想要掏空國庫嗎？","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:31.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:38.751000+08:00","text":"我剛剛答復過了，第二預備金有其法定更需要的用途，也有委員形容這個是救命錢……","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:38.751000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:39.751000+08:00","text":"所以這是法定用途嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:39.751000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:40.751000+08:00","text":"你們又把這些錢拿來補……","quality":0},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:39.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:42.855000+08:00","text":"如果追加預算通過的話，我們就規定……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:43.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:46.097000+08:00","text":"我還要講的是，這個追加預算的前提是什麼？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:46.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:52.782000+08:00","text":"要有一個法定預算才能追加，中選會之前根本沒有編這筆預算，你怎麼追加？因為……","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:53.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:54.983000+08:00","text":"這就是犯了邏輯的錯誤。","quality":1},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:54.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:43:55.983000+08:00","text":"它不曉得有沒有公投案，它怎麼去編？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:43:54.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:44:09.991000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，卓院長，您回去好好去讀一下什麼叫追加預算，其前提就是要先有個法定預算，有新增業務才能夠追加預算，所以中選會的追加預算編列也是違法的。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:44:09.991000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:44:10.991000+08:00","text":"它沒有違法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:44:10.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:44:48.865000+08:00","text":"話再說回來，對於地方性的補助款，這次你們提出來要追加636億，我要再次強調，立法院從來沒有刪過地方政府的一般性補助款，當時就是依照地方政府的一般性補助款所通過的，總統也都已經公告了，所以這個是行政院不把636億去做機關裡面的內部勻支，而是把這個刪減全部都轉嫁到地方政府，因此我要講的是，這樣子的作法非常惡質，根本就是違法的。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:44:49.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:45:22.159000+08:00","text":"當然我想在立法院這邊，還是有很多選區委員已經看到地方政府現在受災受難，很多弱勢的民眾是非常非常辛苦的，所以即便我再怎麼不認同，我認為這個根本就是違法的追加，可是如果未來有通過的話，我想這個部分也要清楚告訴卓院長，這並不代表你們是合法的，其實這是違法的編列，我還要再強調一次，這是違法的編列，如果這個通過的話，我想要講的就是……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"卓院長榮泰","start":"2025-08-26T11:45:22.159000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:45:23.899000+08:00","text":"請委員支持。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:45:23.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:45:39.288000+08:00","text":"你們現在的所作所為，就是國家級的擄人勒贖，你們把地方政府、把這些弱勢民眾當成你們的政治肉票，用來威脅國會，這是非常非常糟糕的一件事情。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:45:39.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:45:40.528000+08:00","text":"什麼叫做擄人勒贖？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:45:41.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:45:43.488000+08:00","text":"我覺得你們行政院現在做的就是這樣的事情。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:45:45.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:45:53.750000+08:00","text":"我最後還要再講的就是，你們就算認為有追加預算的必要……不好意思，請主計長。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-26T11:45:53.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:01.806000+08:00","text":"請主計長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:01.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:08.510000+08:00","text":"你們這次追加預算的方式，有比照中央政府總預算的編列方式嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:08.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:11.692000+08:00","text":"有，因為這個部分……有嗎？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:11.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:12.692000+08:00","text":"當初被刪減的部分，我們為什麼辦追加？","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:12.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:13.692000+08:00","text":"因為它執行有困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:12.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:15.515000+08:00","text":"好，你們有提供三個表格嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:15.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:21.379000+08:00","text":"你們有提供「中央政府各機關歲出二級用途別科目分析表」嗎？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:21.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:25.361000+08:00","text":"你們有提出「中央政府各機關資本支出分析表」嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:25.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:29.104000+08:00","text":"你們有提出「中央政府各機關資本支出分析總表」嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:30.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:32.078000+08:00","text":"我們都依照預算法的規定……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:32.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:49.098000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，我們沒有看到，立法院預算中心也沒有看到，所以你們根本沒有依照預算法第八十二條，追加預算的編造、審議及執行程序要準用總預算的規定，我不知道主計長你是怎麼把關的？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:49.098000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:46:50.098000+08:00","text":"我們自己也有規範追加預算的表格。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:46:50.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:10.429000+08:00","text":"坦白說，你們這樣子編列預算的方式，真的是非常簡略、粗暴、草率，因為我們看不出來你們現在這個經費是用在什麼地方，更何況我剛剛講了，追加預算重要的是它要有發生重大事故，你們哪一個項目的內容裡面有說你們是發生了什麼重大的事故？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:10.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:11.270000+08:00","text":"因為它有限制……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:11.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:12.850000+08:00","text":"有發生天災、人禍或是什麼嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:12.850000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:13.850000+08:00","text":"它有限制流用，就是執行有困難。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:12.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:19.774000+08:00","text":"唯一的可能性就是，因為你們自己覺得不服氣立法院刪你們的預算。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:20.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:23.403000+08:00","text":"不是，是因為執行有困難，是真的。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:24.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:26.365000+08:00","text":"過去難道都沒有預算被刪減嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:26.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:28.607000+08:00","text":"沒有刪減這麼多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:28.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:37.913000+08:00","text":"執行有困難不是問題，這是過去式，已經要翻頁了，你們當初提起了覆議，覆議也被我們否決了，所以這個根本不構成追加預算的理由。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:37.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:47:38.913000+08:00","text":"而且是指定刪減。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:47:38.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:48:04.777000+08:00","text":"最後我要講的就是，我很遺憾，我看到你們這次所編的預算，不僅預算回編，不該編的項目，譬如人事費的項目，本來不該編，你們也編，然後一些雞毛蒜皮的小錢你們也編了，剛剛賴士葆委員已經講得很清楚了，所以我在這邊要講，我會嚴格把關你們的追加預算，不該通過的就不通過。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2025-08-26T11:48:04.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:48:05.257000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-26T11:48:05.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-26T11:48:09.378000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-26T11:48:09.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-26T11:48:15.306571+08:00","text":"接下來我們請登記最後一位伍麗華委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":971,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時38分）主席好，在這邊有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：院長好。我在這邊很快講幾個重點，第一個，我們知道其實114年中央政府總預算案可以說是創下歷史新高，114年我們通過了2兆9,250億，比十年前的預算多了1兆，什麼叫1兆的概念？就是1萬個億，臺灣人口如果是2,340萬的話，平均每個人每年交給政府12.7萬的管理費，一家四口大概就是交了差不多50萬的管理費給政府去管理、去治理。","可是你們看看，民進黨政府執政這九年大概是揮霍成性，不知道要量入為出、要勤儉持家，記得童子賢董事長之前還在講，我們明明就可以花一塊多的成本去買核電，你偏偏要用貴了四、五倍的錢去買綠電、去製造綠電，或者是兩、三倍的錢去買天然氣，由此可見，現在賴政府就是不會持家。卓院長，您認為您是個好管家嗎？您會持家嗎？您會量入為出嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們真的量入為出，而且國家的經濟……"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？我們創下了有史以來最高的……"],["卓院長榮泰：國家的經濟成長是相當明顯的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們創下了有史以來通過最高的預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年已經突破26兆的整體GDP。"],["翁委員曉玲：我要講一下，說實在話，您認為您會持家，我還真的覺得你是往臉上貼金，我們知道現在民眾普遍認為賴總統上任這一年多來，臺灣是風不調、雨不順、國不泰、民不安，我們看到卓內閣的政績，似乎只有政治惡鬥、搞大罷免，尤其是823之後，其實民眾期待要重新組閣，卓院長會繼續留任嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我有向總統提出應該負起政治責任，總統希望把過去的工作能夠繼續延續，也未來擘畫新的計畫，希望局勢能夠穩定下來。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，總之就是你會被慰留嘛！而本席的看法是，如果您繼續留任，大概也就是老狗變不出什麼新把戲啦！未來跟立法院的互動仍然是窒礙難行，大概就是覆議、釋憲，然後不執行這幾個套路。"],["卓院長榮泰：這都是被動的，這對行政院來講都是被動的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在要講的是，其實這一次行政院提出了追加預算，就本席看來，基本上根本就是不合法、違法，我們知道提出追加預算最重要的法源依據是什麼，是依據什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算法第七十幾條。"],["翁委員曉玲：是預算法第七十九條跟第八十條嘛，對不對？尤其追加預算在預算法第七十九條裡面講得很清楚，有四個要件，而這四個要件裡面，我認為除了我們現在講的要補貼禁伐補償，以及軍人、海巡人員加給的預算經費是可以符合預算法第七十九條第四項「依有關法律應補列追加預算者」外，其餘的部分，現在行政院提出的施政計畫，這一百多億根本就不符合預算法第七十九條的規定啊！請問有發生什麼重大事故嗎？我們有發生重大事故嗎？我們的經費有超過法定預算的編列嗎？你們提出的追加預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：刪除預算過於龐大，集中特定項目，不准流用……"],["翁委員曉玲：這個叫做重大事故？所以請教……"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是重大的事故，我們過去曾有前例，在過往的時候，行政、立法兩院曾經用過這一條來解決預算上面的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想請問，對卓院長來說，什麼樣子的刪減比率才叫做合理的比率？"],["卓院長榮泰：我從來不以比率來衡量。"],["翁委員曉玲：是一毛都不能刪嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是，我剛剛說過……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們這次刪的已經是創下……"],["卓院長榮泰：不要用刪減……"],["翁委員曉玲：才總共3%啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：刪減比率……"],["翁委員曉玲：比過去的刪減預算還要少很多。"],["卓院長榮泰：刪減比率不是拿來競爭用的。"],["翁委員曉玲：聽我講完，我要講的是，這次你們所提的預算，基本上是不符合預算法第七十九條所講的，因為發生重大事故，經費超過法定預算。我們在這邊很快地再舉幾個例子，因為其他的委員也都講了，我就不再重複。我要特別講的是，以中選會的這個案子來說，明明過去辦理選舉、罷免、公投的經費全部都是透過動用第二預備金，而且你們已經也核定了，現在又在重新編列追加預算，這樣合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛我已經答復過了。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們是想要偷渡嗎？你們想要掏空國庫嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛答復過了，第二預備金有其法定更需要的用途，也有委員形容這個是救命錢……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這是法定用途嘛！你們又把這些錢拿來補……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果追加預算通過的話，我們就規定……"],["翁委員曉玲：我還要講的是，這個追加預算的前提是什麼？要有一個法定預算才能追加，中選會之前根本沒有編這筆預算，你怎麼追加？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：這就是犯了邏輯的錯誤。"],["卓院長榮泰：它不曉得有沒有公投案，它怎麼去編？"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，卓院長，您回去好好去讀一下什麼叫追加預算，其前提就是要先有個法定預算，有新增業務才能夠追加預算，所以中選會的追加預算編列也是違法的。"],["卓院長榮泰：它沒有違法。"],["翁委員曉玲：話再說回來，對於地方性的補助款，這次你們提出來要追加636億，我要再次強調，立法院從來沒有刪過地方政府的一般性補助款，當時就是依照地方政府的一般性補助款所通過的，總統也都已經公告了，所以這個是行政院不把636億去做機關裡面的內部勻支，而是把這個刪減全部都轉嫁到地方政府，因此我要講的是，這樣子的作法非常惡質，根本就是違法的。當然我想在立法院這邊，還是有很多選區委員已經看到地方政府現在受災受難，很多弱勢的民眾是非常非常辛苦的，所以即便我再怎麼不認同，我認為這個根本就是違法的追加，可是如果未來有通過的話，我想這個部分也要清楚告訴卓院長，這並不代表你們是合法的，其實這是違法的編列，我還要再強調一次，這是違法的編列，如果這個通過的話，我想要講的就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員支持。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們現在的所作所為，就是國家級的擄人勒贖，你們把地方政府、把這些弱勢民眾當成你們的政治肉票，用來威脅國會，這是非常非常糟糕的一件事情。什麼叫做擄人勒贖？我覺得你們行政院現在做的就是這樣的事情。我最後還要再講的就是，你們就算認為有追加預算的必要……不好意思，請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們這次追加預算的方式，有比照中央政府總預算的編列方式嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，因為這個部分……"],["翁委員曉玲：有嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：當初被刪減的部分，我們為什麼辦追加？因為它執行有困難。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，你們有提供三個表格嗎？你們有提供「中央政府各機關歲出二級用途別科目分析表」嗎？你們有提出「中央政府各機關資本支出分析表」嗎？你們有提出「中央政府各機關資本支出分析總表」嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們都依照預算法的規定……"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，我們沒有看到，立法院預算中心也沒有看到，所以你們根本沒有依照預算法第八十二條，追加預算的編造、審議及執行程序要準用總預算的規定，我不知道主計長你是怎麼把關的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們自己也有規範追加預算的表格。"],["翁委員曉玲：坦白說，你們這樣子編列預算的方式，真的是非常簡略、粗暴、草率，因為我們看不出來你們現在這個經費是用在什麼地方，更何況我剛剛講了，追加預算重要的是它要有發生重大事故，你們哪一個項目的內容裡面有說你們是發生了什麼重大的事故？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它有限制……"],["翁委員曉玲：有發生天災、人禍或是什麼嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它有限制流用，就是執行有困難。"],["翁委員曉玲：唯一的可能性就是，因為你們自己覺得不服氣立法院刪你們的預算。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，是因為執行有困難，是真的。"],["翁委員曉玲：過去難道都沒有預算被刪減嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有刪減這麼多。"],["翁委員曉玲：執行有困難不是問題，這是過去式，已經要翻頁了，你們當初提起了覆議，覆議也被我們否決了，所以這個根本不構成追加預算的理由。"],["陳主計長淑姿：而且是指定刪減。"],["翁委員曉玲：最後我要講的就是，我很遺憾，我看到你們這次所編的預算，不僅預算回編，不該編的項目，譬如人事費的項目，本來不該編，你們也編，然後一些雞毛蒜皮的小錢你們也編了，剛剛賴士葆委員已經講得很清楚了，所以我在這邊要講，我會嚴格把關你們的追加預算，不該通過的就不通過。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","接下來我們請登記最後一位伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":215,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","陳亭妃","賴士葆","賴惠員","翁曉玲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":159,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算\n案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}