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那我也了解說 考試院希望這個行政院出來 希望當作這個主管機關但是我自己思考過幾個問題啦我還是相信我國有權利分立啦 雖然"},{"start":213.903,"end":242.09,"text":"雖然現在事務上似乎看起來我國權力分立這是一個幌子完全違反孟德斯鳩的概念當行政權跟立法權以及那個考試權行政權跟立法權以及司法權結合的時候他帶來的就是專制這孟德斯鳩講的那專制的原理是什麼就是恐怖其實台灣就是走向這樣但是我還是相信可能我們還是有權力分立那依照現在的制度上面我們公務員"},{"start":243.902,"end":264.054,"text":"不是我再回答問題王委員我再回答我剛有說我跟黃委員報告他剛剛我跟你講你還沒進來之前他已經說他是會議詢問所以我現在再跟他回答王委員請不要干擾議事謝謝我也很尊重你的我很尊重王委員的王委員我很尊重你的"},{"start":265.677,"end":284.709,"text":"我再回答他問題我我回答他問題要經過你同意嗎王委員請問一下我回答其他委員的問題需要王委員你這位大人同意嗎我跟你講如果你不你要不要"},{"start":286.957,"end":314.074,"text":"我跟你講 王委員 王委員如果你要這樣子要要求我們開會每一個時間到都停請你問問你們的陳培宇 你們吳思瑤我是不是都讓大家把他講完我是不是都讓大家盡量講完王一川你幹了沒有 尊重主席王一川請你尊重主席王委員 如果你不懂議事規則請回去把議事規則搞清楚"},{"start":318.188,"end":342.321,"text":"王逸川 你去約束你們民進黨的人也要預時好不好你要不要去看看你們貴黨的陳培委員 吳孝偉 我有沒有干擾他們我都讓他們把話講完我跟你講 各個委員會有各個委員會做法我跟你講啦 你去當民進黨的召委 你來主持會議啦你下個會請就當召委嘛 好不好"},{"start":343.479,"end":352.684,"text":"我跟你講啦在這邊跟你吵架是拉低我們自己的格調不用在國會吵架給全國人民看這是拉低我們的格調但是我跟你說"},{"start":354.369,"end":383.733,"text":"黃委員今天黃委員在議事詢問的話我就會回答他的問題如果你等一下有問題要問我請你到台上來你到台上來之後我也會回答你的問題其他我跟你講不用多說了你在講什麼我覺得今天會議是我主持如果你對議事的主持這麼有興趣麻煩你下一任當召委你來制止我們講話我OK我沒有意見嘛那今天在這邊麻煩各委員會有各委員會的做法"},{"start":384.193,"end":399.638,"text":"你去看從這一屆第十一屆第一個會期到現在我主持了三個會期我是不是都盡量讓大家講完雖然我們講八分鐘這個是訓示規定每個委員會有不同的文化有的文化"},{"start":400.638,"end":423.973,"text":"8分鐘一到立刻關掉麥克風但是本委員會包括莊瑞雄委員在主持他都是盡量讓大家講完除非時間真的太長了我們才會制止你可以過去看過去的VOD是不是都是這樣我不會騙你這個部分我不會說面對黃國昌讓他講個高興面對陳佩瑜就不讓他講你可以去看看過去我主持會議是不是都是公平這樣"},{"start":425.253,"end":444.271,"text":"如果等一下你對於會議有什麼問題歡迎你到前面來 我們來問基本上 王委員我對你是很尊重啦一直以來我對你都很尊重我們不要在這邊吵架給全國人民看我覺得這真的不好這真的降低我們國會議員彼此的格調好不好不好意思 王委員就這樣好 那"},{"start":445.576,"end":457.487,"text":"我要回答你的問題你剛說要請行政院來那為什麼我今天這個沒有請行政院來雖然說行政院有說他要當主管機關因為過往我們看到的"},{"start":458.439,"end":477.335,"text":"不管是公務員服務法或者是一些懲戒事項或公務員的中立法等等的他的主管機關是考試院不是行政院所以我才會認為說這個體力上面的一貫應該還是由考試院來所以這就是為什麼我今天沒有請行政院來的主要原因"},{"start":478.015,"end":502.214,"text":"那如果當然我們在法條在那個審查的時候如果行政院要求他們要擔任主管機關的話那當然未來的審查我們可能會請行政院過來那第二個是如果今天由行政院他自己來去做這個主管機關的話我會擔心有球員兼裁判所以我剛才會提到"},{"start":503.527,"end":526.112,"text":"我還是相信權力分立這句話所以各位不要直接說我在發表自己的意見我現在從頭到尾在回答黃國昌委員的問題為什麼今天沒有叫行政院來行政院明明說要當主管機關我在這邊給各位的報告是我還是相信台灣有權力分立那因為權力分立之下考試院跟行政院是一樣大的"},{"start":527.092,"end":555.767,"text":"並沒有考試院低於行政院所以主管機關有考試院我今天才會請考試院來我想我這個是做憲政制度上面的說明絕對不是說在這邊跟大家吵架所以如果說你們覺得我對於我國憲政制度或對於五權分立我有誤解的話歡迎來打臉我我一直對於法律的論述都這樣那我也很尊重不同意見的人以上是我對黃國昌委員的回答我不知道有沒有回答到你的問題沒關係啊 尊重召委的安排不過我覺得行政院"},{"start":556.909,"end":579.378,"text":"到底搶著當主管機關是真的有要立法還是在阻礙立法沒有關係啊我們在審法案的時候繼續看下去那現在是不是有請我們考試院那個密疏長你要不要休息一下因為我有點擔心還是你先休息請你們那個次次長上來就好了"},{"start":585.495,"end":613.331,"text":"委員長市長好上一次我質詢你的時候我有問因為有警消跟我投訴他們一直有得到消息本院三讀通過的法律針對提銷警消的所得替代率相關的部門能拖就拖 能混就混 擺明就是沒有要發我上次為什麼在質詢的時候我會特別問這個問題警察人員人事條例修法"},{"start":614.485,"end":643.571,"text":"我們已經三讀通過 總統已經公佈了結果在整個作業的時間當中我不斷的關心到底什麼時候會處理那上一次呢 你給我回答是12月以前你們要依法執行因為現在很多事情在忙嘛什麼電腦系統啊 在調整但我現在已經有一點看不太清楚了現在行政院是連預算都沒有編啊如果連預算都沒有編的話你12月底以前要怎麼依法執行啊"},{"start":644.827,"end":671.2,"text":"你當初是知道會發生這樣的事情裝不知道在騙我嗎還是你根本就不知道因為我不會知道啊因為預算編列依照憲法的規定沒關係我們一條一條來齁你上次回給我的書面說明啊說你們相關的執行作業本部內政部及有關機關已經在4月29號5月16號28號6月25號及30號召開五次延伤會議就警察人員人事條例第35條規定確定立法"},{"start":675.359,"end":698.649,"text":"法治適用原則那確立法治適用原則這五次開會的法治適用原則有說不發嗎從來沒有說不發內政部有沒有說不發那其他的有關機關有哪些機關海巡署警察大學消防署所以大家都說要發"},{"start":699.861,"end":727.751,"text":"我們在會上就是討論我們怎麼樣去做這件事情是啊 但現在問題來了根本沒有編預算要怎麼發這個就是我的問題啊這就是我的問題啊這個法律生效通過了以後我們依法論法 我不跟你談政治啊我依法論法 退休的景蕭依照這個法律三讀生效通過了以後對於國家是不是產生公法上的金錢請求權是還是不是"},{"start":729.332,"end":753.558,"text":"是嘛 這個國家的公法上金錢請求權會因為我們的政府有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎 會不會我跟委員報告 就是說有沒有編預算對不起啊 請你針對預算 請你針對我的問題回答 時間有限啊但是那個預算 我的理解 我說就我有限的理解預算支出也要有它經過預算程序通過的名目跟相關的規範"},{"start":754.958,"end":782.721,"text":"是啊 名目不就警察人員人事條例你剛剛也講了啊這是法律義務支出啊這退休警消對國家的公法上金錢請求權啊我剛剛問你的問題請你不要迴避喔不好意思齁請你針對我的問題回答我説明一下那條上面還有講到因此而外增加的要由政府編列預算支應啊那當然嘛法制作業上本來就如此啊但我現在問你的是公務人員對於國家"},{"start":785.083,"end":796.539,"text":"公法上的金錢請求權這個請求權會因為國家有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎這是基本的法律問題耶大二上過行政法的都知道耶不敢回答喔"},{"start":798.172,"end":815.865,"text":"蛤 現在連考試院啊 都看著上億在辦事喔我跟委員報告 我們部裡面立場就是把我們該做的該審查的這邊就如同沒有關係啊 你們現在電腦作業什麼時候會做完我們應該在10月左右應該他就因為我們現在已經 是 什麼時候會做完"},{"start":817.441,"end":845.3,"text":"做完了以後要不要按照你們部裡面的喔我先講你們部裡面的就好了你們部裡面做完以後要不要針對重新核定的退休金寄發通知給所有的景銷 要還是不要什麼時候會發這個我們大概就誠如在22號答覆您的我們會在12月底以前把它完成在上次我也是這樣跟您12月底以前記得齁該給人家的通知要通知喔可以嗎"},{"start":846.201,"end":864.259,"text":"不會因為說現在沒有編預算賴清德跟卓榮泰說不給就不發通知喔這通知很重要啊因為這些退休的景銷到時候拿到通知了以後我才知道嘛接下來我如果要透過行政訴訟的方式要求國家履行這個公法上的金錢請求權"},{"start":865.7,"end":887.544,"text":"我才知道計算的金額是多少數字聲明要怎麼寫嘛所以站在考試院的立場不應該被政治上面所左右依法你們要核發給人家的通知依照警察人員人事條例重新核定的退休金應該要多少錢這個通知就會發出去對不對對 我們部裡面要做的事情什麼時候可以發完"},{"start":888.579,"end":904.332,"text":"我們就跟您報告嘛 12月底好 12月底先把它發完 下一個問題國發基金不當投資啊我上次一直在追啊 這個莫名其妙怎麼會有這麼離譜的事一個決定拿納稅人的錢去投資的人"},{"start":905.675,"end":932.811,"text":"結果做了會議主席 投資完了以後自己跑去那家被投資的公司當董事我的老天啊這明顯違反旋轉門條款我開始追這件事情的時候結果國發會給我回文喔 他說依照旋序部回覆並重申該部85年函式有關旋轉門條款規定所稱職務直接相關什麼職務直接相關 避免權力濫用嘛"},{"start":934.158,"end":958.749,"text":"跟你職務直接相關的我現在代表國發基金 我是執行秘書我還擔任這個審查委員會的主席我決定要投資這家公司結果我跑去這家公司當董事這當然是跟職務直接相關啊這當然是跟職務直接相關啊你甚至不用念法律系啊甚至不要念一般行政啊"},{"start":960.046,"end":981.058,"text":"你隨便問一個有公民素養的高中生就知道這絕對職務直接相關啊結果呢 國發會說我們有發函給玄敘部玄敘部給我們的回覆說呢必須要各該營利事業的目的事業主管機關或者是離職前呢 具有營建或採購業務相關關係現在問題來了"},{"start":985.799,"end":1000.24,"text":"公務人員服務法職務直接相關什麼時候給選區部這樣的權限 透過你們的函式把範圍限縮掉 拖曳法律規範之本質你要不要說明一下現在是什麼 官官相護嗎"},{"start":1001.254,"end":1026.654,"text":"我跟委員報告這個服務法旋轉條款當時就服務法第13條那因為當初第13條通過的文字在考試院院會是當時有對這個部分未來在執行應該如何執行他有做過一個更精準的一個具體怎麼樣去做處理那民國85年這個函式就是根據當時權敘部報告考試院的一個說明資料上面做了這個但是因為違反服務法基本上它有兩個效果"},{"start":1027.835,"end":1055.438,"text":"對不起先不用講效果啦我們先回到法條構成文字啦職務直接相關為什麼選區部把他限縮到這種程度這是我現在的問題因為在85年通過這法律的時候大家認為說到底這個條文應該怎麼去執行不是啊那我就直接問你嘛今天我是國發基金的執行秘書這個投資會議我當主席通過了以後我跑去被投資的公司當董事這個是不是職務直接相關"},{"start":1056.058,"end":1070.649,"text":"我跟委員報告因為它是我職務相關會產生後面法律效果這是由法院來決定因為後面會有將近兩年復刑根本不會啦 按照啦你們現在做的方式不會由法院做決定啦"},{"start":1071.349,"end":1092.967,"text":"為什麼不會有法院做決定國發會就擋在前面啦用選序部的函式當靠山啊說依照選序部的函式這個沒有違反旋轉門條款啊接下來就不會發動下一步的法律程序啦來我直接給你看例子啦這有沒有違反旋轉門條款台中市公務局局長"},{"start":1094.578,"end":1120.443,"text":"結果離職以後三年內跑去一家營造廠當總經理最後沒有違反懸殊短門條款按照 你就本於你們考試院剛剛的韓式回答我這個問題就好了有還是沒有因為我記得我們幫署你那個韓式還有包括有採購關係營建關係都是所以這個案子要看他沒有採購關係也沒有營造關係這個當年他跟他之間是不是有這個沒有 我現在就跟你講沒有"},{"start":1121.623,"end":1148.862,"text":"這樣子有沒有違反旋轉門條款你們的函式沒有違反旋轉門條款為什麼因為所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部啊我只要不要任職經濟部就好啦所有公司的主管機關都經濟部啊公司法規定的很清楚啊那代表什麼 按照你們這個函式只要不是任職經濟部或者是地方目的事業主管機關經濟局的通通不會違反旋轉門條款啊"},{"start":1150.68,"end":1175.308,"text":"我跟他不要有採購 不要有營造的關係但我可以跟他有什麼我可以跟他有 我事後去他公司當總經理 當董事長通通都不會違反旋轉門條款啦我為什麼提這個案子 往下看當初那個人在法院接受審判的時候他就說 依照考試院的函式我不是在目的事業主管機關欸"},{"start":1177.54,"end":1196.799,"text":"我是在公務局耶 我不是在經濟局耶而且第二個 這家公司跟我任職的台中市政府也沒有採購關係 也沒有營造關係啊所以沒有違反公務員服務法百分之一百百分之一百就是用你們考試院的含釋來當擋箭牌"},{"start":1200.083,"end":1222.706,"text":"百分之一百就是你們用你們考試院的函式來當擋箭牌啊結果當擋箭牌最後的結果是什麼這字啊 我一個字都沒改當初他在法院的時候就是用這個當擋箭牌最後的結果被法官打槍啊有罪確定被法官打槍有罪確定啊胡說八道把大家當笨蛋"},{"start":1224.111,"end":1236.292,"text":"這不是跟職務直接相關 什麼是跟職務直接相關但這個是法院要認定是嘛 現在就出現問題啦為什麼考試院做了函事就法律應該有的解釋"},{"start":1237.665,"end":1256.975,"text":"什麼叫韓式啊 法律應該有什麼解釋做正確的解釋你們的解釋被法院打臉了啊85年欸 恐龍時代的韓式到2025年繼續用而且用來包庇什麼 用來包庇綠油油這個韓式要不要回去重新檢討"},{"start":1258.806,"end":1276.419,"text":"法院的判決都打臉你們的韓市啦這個韓市要不要回去重新檢討這個韓市現在被拿來幹嘛被拿來在國發基金裡面胡搞瞎搞的人當擋箭牌國發基金投資的對象 投資的每一家公司目的事業主管機關 全部都經濟部啊絕對都不是國發會哇"},{"start":1281.164,"end":1296.212,"text":"真的是見內心喜 喜出望外我國發會愛怎麼搞怎麼搞因為這些公司的目的事業主管機關都是經濟部不是我國發會所以按照我們考試院的函式這個都不是跟職務直接相關"},{"start":1298.117,"end":1324.782,"text":"你們考試院要不要回去重新檢討一下很丟臉欸很丟臉欸85年的韓式被法院打臉了到2025年不改繼續被拿來包庇這些胡搞瞎搞的官員當作黨箭牌考試院很閒嗎還是考試院太忙了這麼重要的韓式欸被法院判決打臉欸現在繼續被拿來當黨箭牌"},{"start":1328.12,"end":1353.418,"text":"考試院針對這個函試要不要回去重新檢討我跟委員報告喔所有每個委員服務法的被法院判決都是有很法院都有很細的調查是中間都有一些證據或什麼來沒有關係啊事實我們沒有真實啊現在我在跟你講的是法律解釋的問題請你不要 請你不要把法律解釋的問題要把它拉到事實認定的問題這個事實很清楚了啦"},{"start":1354.558,"end":1376.436,"text":"這個事實非常清楚 事實認定一點問題都沒有唯有的問題是什麼 法律解釋而這個莫名其妙的法律解釋啊 是哪裡來的就從考試院來的啊就從考試院來的啊我有說錯嗎當然要尊重法院判決所以我才叫你回去改函式啊"},{"start":1378.025,"end":1399.753,"text":"這個韓式被法院打臉了你又說要尊重法院判決又在那邊繼續凹這個韓式要不要回去重新檢討要還是不要要不要回去重新檢討 要還是不要我們可以再重新檢討一下看一下這個個案到底是怎麼樣沒有關係啊 召委站起來了 回去重新檢討你不用去看個案"},{"start":1400.714,"end":1426.596,"text":"你不用去看個案 你直接看你自己啊在法院的判決裡面被打臉的法律見解就好啊丟人現眼啦 丟人現眼啦85年的韓式欸 到2025年拿來變成在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人的黨建牌莫名其妙我對考試院本來還有一點尊重喔"},{"start":1427.591,"end":1456.931,"text":"如果今天考試院要幫這種在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人築起防火牆我直接跟你們講這件事情絕對沒完沒了這件事情絕對沒完沒了國發基金是納稅人的錢欸不是你們民進黨的黨庫欸國發基金是納稅人的錢不是你們民進黨的黨庫欸可以這樣搞喔檢討要多少時間一個月夠不夠"},{"start":1458.809,"end":1460.45,"text":"檢討韓式就好了啦好沒關係來請秘書長檢討要多少時間 一個月夠不夠"},{"start":1472.245,"end":1488.337,"text":"呃 委員讓我們回去研究一下我想85年的韓式是不是沒有關係你們需要多少時間會後書面回覆給我我不是要你回覆答案啦回覆給我說我們研究這個韓式需要多少時間接下班以前回覆給我可以嗎好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:16:53.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:16:54.061000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:16:54.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:17:01.926000+08:00","text":"在開始進行詢答以前，我大概有個會議程序上面的事項，可能是詢問，可能也是建議。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:17:01.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:17:24.333000+08:00","text":"因為剛剛聽到考試院秘書長報告說這個法律案其實考試院本來有準備，早就要送來審議了，結果行政院有意見，行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:17:24.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:17:31.835000+08:00","text":"如果行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關，顯然行政院對這個法有非常強烈的意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:17:33.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:17:58.860000+08:00","text":"既然行政院搶著要當主管機關，攸關本法的行政機關到底應該是由考試院還是行政院，我建議接下來處理法案的時候，請行政院派有代表權的人來，因為行政院搶著要當主管機關，那行政院就要來這邊把立場講清楚嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:18:00.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:18:45.542000+08:00","text":"因為行政院搶著當主管機關，針對政務人員行為基準法，他們認為應該有發言的權利，看起來似乎也沒有排斥這個法有立法的必要，但是我們看到過去行政院，特別是行政院的政務官，從閣員到次長，剛剛我聽秘書長講，還有考試院的書面報告說公務員服務法裡面有一些規範，政務人員也有遵守，譬如其中服務法所定應該謹慎發言，那我就看不懂啦！","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:18:47.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:18:57.551000+08:00","text":"如果這個法對政務人員有適用的話，過去這段時間，行政院的這些閣員有謹慎發言嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:18:57.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:19:04.716000+08:00","text":"可以指著在野黨的立委說你吃臺灣米做中國鬼嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:19:04.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:19:11.821000+08:00","text":"可以在臉書上面說726大罷免沒有成功，要繼續剿匪嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:19:11.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:19:13.081000+08:00","text":"這是哪門子謹慎發言啊？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:19:14.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:19:25.066000+08:00","text":"這種問題要考試院回答，他們也很尷尬，不敢得罪當道，等一下我如果上來是問這種問題，只是讓考試院尷尬，他們不敢得罪當道嘛！","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:19:27.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:19:38.739000+08:00","text":"有辦法回答這種問題的，恐怕可能要請現在賴著不下臺的卓榮泰，由行政院派一個有代表權的來，不然這個法案要怎麼審？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:19:38.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:19:47.302000+08:00","text":"光主管機關就吵不完了，這個是我在針對這個法案要進行實質審查以前給召委的建議。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:19:47.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:19:50.383000+08:00","text":"如果今天要進行實質逐條的審查，我也支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:19:51.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:19:59.429000+08:00","text":"等一下是不是請議事人員……等一下法案進行逐條的時候，請卓榮泰趕快派一個代表來，謝謝主席。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:00.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:20:09.997000+08:00","text":"跟黃委員報告，有關這部分其實我之前有思考過，我也知道行政院突然希望能當主管機關。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:10.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:20:23.625000+08:00","text":"我自己思考過幾個問題，我還是相信我國有權力分立，雖然現在在實務上看起來我國權力分立似乎是一個幌子，完全違反孟德斯鳩的概念。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:24.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:20:33.587000+08:00","text":"當行政權、立法權及司法權結合的時候，帶來的就是專制，這是孟德斯鳩講的。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:34.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:20:35.407000+08:00","text":"專制的原理是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:35.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:20:42.209000+08:00","text":"就是恐怖，而臺灣就是走向這樣，但我還是相信我們可能還是有權力分立！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:42.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:20:45.090000+08:00","text":"依照現在的制度，我們公務員……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:45.090000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:20:47.442000+08:00","text":"這是在聊天吧？不是！","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:47.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:20:48.583000+08:00","text":"我在回答問題！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:48.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:20:52.685000+08:00","text":"王委員，我在回答，我剛才有說跟黃委員報告。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:20:55.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:01.891000+08:00","text":"你還沒進來之前，他已經說是會議詢問，所以我現在回答他，王委員，請不要干擾議事，謝謝。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:01.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:02.751000+08:00","text":"我也很尊重你的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:02.751000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:04.012000+08:00","text":"尊重主席啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:04.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:05.013000+08:00","text":"我很尊重王委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:05.013000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:06.013000+08:00","text":"你們要聊天……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:05.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:06.834000+08:00","text":"王委員，我很尊重你……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:06.834000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:08.677000+08:00","text":"你在講你的意見……","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:08.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:12.800000+08:00","text":"我在回答他問題，我回答他問題要經過你同意嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:12.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:21.005000+08:00","text":"王委員，請問一下，我回答其他委員的問題需要王委員你這位大人同意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:21.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:21.785000+08:00","text":"我跟你講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:21.785000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:22.785000+08:00","text":"都這樣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:22.785000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:23.785000+08:00","text":"你說講幾分鐘，每次他都講幾分鐘……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:23.785000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:24.785000+08:00","text":"你去選召委啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:24.785000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:25.785000+08:00","text":"你去選召委啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:25.785000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:26.785000+08:00","text":"昨天說6分鐘，結果講了幾分鐘？","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:22.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:31.398000+08:00","text":"你自己講6分鐘……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:32.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:42.925000+08:00","text":"王委員，如果你要這樣子要求我們開會時，每一個人時間到都停止發言，請你問問陳培瑜、吳思瑤，我是不是都讓大家講完？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:42.925000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:44.026000+08:00","text":"講幾分鐘？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:44.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:45.487000+08:00","text":"我是不是都讓大家儘量講完？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:45.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:46.507000+08:00","text":"王義川，你夠了沒有？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:46.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:47.388000+08:00","text":"尊重主席！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:47.388000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:48.689000+08:00","text":"除非今天的會議時間拖太長……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:48.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:50.790000+08:00","text":"王義川，請你尊重主席！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:52.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:57.054000+08:00","text":"王委員，如果你不懂議事規則，請回去把議事規則搞清楚！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:57.054000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:21:59.121000+08:00","text":"你昨天說一個人講6分鐘，他講幾分鐘？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:21:59.121000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:01.188000+08:00","text":"你講幾分鐘？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:01.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:04.870000+08:00","text":"王義川，你去約束……你們民進黨的人也有逾時，好不好？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:05.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:10.093000+08:00","text":"你要不要去看看貴黨的陳培瑜委員、吳思瑤委員，我沒有干擾他們？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:10.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:11.373000+08:00","text":"我都讓他們把話講完……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:11.373000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:14.115000+08:00","text":"一個人只能講6分鐘，你不用講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:14.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:17.056000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，各委員會有各委員會作法……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:17.056000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:18.056000+08:00","text":"你去改內規啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:18.056000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:19.056000+08:00","text":"你就直接開罵……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:17.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:22.459000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，你去當民進黨的召委，你來主持會議！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:23.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:25.301000+08:00","text":"你下個會期就當召委，好不好？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:25.301000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:26.479000+08:00","text":"都聽你的啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:26.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:35.123000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，在這邊跟你吵架是拉低我們自己的格調，不用在國會吵架給全國人民看，這是拉低我們的格調！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:35.123000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:36.123000+08:00","text":"你們兩個都拉低格調啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:35.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:47.838000+08:00","text":"但是我跟你說，王委員，今天黃委員在議事詢問，所以我回答他的問題；如果你等一下有問題要問我，請你到臺上來！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:47.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:52.541000+08:00","text":"你到臺上來之後，我也會回答你的問題，其他就不用多說了！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:53.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:22:55.524000+08:00","text":"不管你講什麼，今天會議是我主持。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:22:55.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:23:03.390000+08:00","text":"如果你對議事的主持這麼有興趣，麻煩你當下一任召委，你來制止我們講話，我OK，我沒有意見。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:23:04.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:23:15.416000+08:00","text":"至於今天在這邊，各委員會有各委員會的作法，從這屆（第11屆）第1會期到現在，我主持了三個會期，我是不是都儘量讓大家講完？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:23:16.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:23:26.160000+08:00","text":"雖然我們規定講8分鐘，這是訓示規定，但各委員會有不同的文化，有的文化是8分鐘一到，立刻關掉麥克風。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:23:26.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:23:34.325000+08:00","text":"但是本委員會，包括莊瑞雄委員在主持，都是儘量讓大家講完，除非真的講太長了，我們才會制止！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:23:34.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:23:37.727000+08:00","text":"你可以去看過去的VOD是不是都這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:23:37.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:23:44.051000+08:00","text":"這部分我不會騙你，我不會因為面對黃國昌就讓他講到高興，面對陳培瑜就不讓他講！","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:23:44.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:23:46.953000+08:00","text":"你可以去看看過去我主持會議是不是都是這樣公平？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:23:48.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:23:52.357000+08:00","text":"如果等一下你對會議有什麼問題，歡迎你到前面來問。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:23:52.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:23:56.721000+08:00","text":"王委員，基本上我對你是很尊重的，一直以來我對你都很尊重。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:23:57.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:24:04.889000+08:00","text":"我們不要在這邊吵架給全國人民看，我覺得這真的不好，真的降低國會議員彼此的格調，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:24:05.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:24:07.111000+08:00","text":"王委員，不好意思，就這樣。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:24:08.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:24:10.118000+08:00","text":"黃委員，我要回答你的問題。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:24:10.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:24:15.763000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說要請行政院派人來，為什麼我今天沒有請行政院來？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:24:15.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:24:18.806000+08:00","text":"雖然行政院有說要當主管機關。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:24:19.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:24:30.607000+08:00","text":"過往我們所看到的，不管是公務員服務法或一些懲戒事項，或公務員中立法等等，主管機關是考試院，而非行政院。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:24:31.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:24:40.315000+08:00","text":"我認為考慮到體例上的一貫，應該還是由考試院來，這就是為什麼我今天沒有請行政院派人來的主要原因。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:24:41.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:24:52.644000+08:00","text":"當然，我們在審查法條時，如果行政院要求要擔任主管機關的話，未來審查時我們可能就會請行政院派人過來。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:24:53.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:08.567000+08:00","text":"第二個，如果今天由行政院擔任主管機關的話，我擔心會球員兼裁判，所以我剛才會提到還是相信權力分立這句話。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:09.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:15.829000+08:00","text":"各位不要直接說我在發表自己的意見，我從頭到尾都是在回答黃國昌委員的問題！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:15.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:18.250000+08:00","text":"為什麼今天沒有叫行政院來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:18.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:20.510000+08:00","text":"行政院明明說要當主管機關。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:20.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:24.611000+08:00","text":"我在這邊向各位報告，我還是相信臺灣有權力分立！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:25.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:31.713000+08:00","text":"在權力分立之下，考試院跟行政院是一樣大的，考試院並沒有低於行政院。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:32.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:39.417000+08:00","text":"目前主管機關有考試院，所以我今天才會請考試院來，這是就憲政制度上面的說明，絕對不是要跟大家吵架。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:40.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:49.762000+08:00","text":"如果你們覺得我對於我國的憲政制度，或對五權分立有誤解的話，歡迎來打臉我，我對法律的論述一直都是這樣，我也很尊重不同意見的人。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:50.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:54.444000+08:00","text":"以上是我對黃國昌委員的回答，不知道有沒有回答到你的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:54.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:25:56.205000+08:00","text":"沒關係，尊重召委的安排。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:25:57.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:04.411000+08:00","text":"不過行政院搶著當主管機關到底是真的有要立法，還是在阻礙立法？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:04.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:08.292000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，我們在審法案的時候繼續看下去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:08.292000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:11.854000+08:00","text":"黃委員要找哪一位？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:11.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:13.434000+08:00","text":"現在是不是有請考試院？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:13.434000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:15.675000+08:00","text":"麻煩請考試院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:15.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:16.495000+08:00","text":"考試院秘書長，你要不要休息一下？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:17.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:22.258000+08:00","text":"因為我有點擔心，還是你先休息，請次長上來就好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:22.258000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:28.495000+08:00","text":"麻煩懷次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:28.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:29.876000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:30.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:30.176000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:30.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:50.187000+08:00","text":"上一次質詢你的時候我有問，有警消跟我投訴，他們一直有得到消息，本院三讀通過的法律，針對提高警消所得替代率，相關部門能拖就拖、能混就混，擺明就是沒有要發。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:50.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:26:54.210000+08:00","text":"為什麼我上次質詢時會特別問這個問題？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:26:54.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:06.287000+08:00","text":"警察人員人事條例修法已經三讀通過，總統已經公布了，因此就作業時間，我不斷關心到底什麼時候會處理？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:07.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:15.509000+08:00","text":"上一次你給我的回答是12月以前你們會依法執行，因為現在有很多事情在忙，什麼電腦系統在調整之類的。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:16.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:21.970000+08:00","text":"但我現在已經有一點看不太清楚了，因為行政院連預算都沒有編！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:22.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:26.371000+08:00","text":"如果連預算都沒有編，12月底以前要怎麼依法執行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:27.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:31.869000+08:00","text":"你當初就知道會發生這樣的事情，故意裝不知道在騙我嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:31.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:32.709000+08:00","text":"還是你根本就不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:33.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:33.970000+08:00","text":"這個我不會知道！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:34.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:36.752000+08:00","text":"預算編列是依照憲法規定，這……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:37.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:38.913000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們一條一條來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:38.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:27:54.180000+08:00","text":"你上次回給我的書面說明提到，相關的執行作業本部、內政部及有關機關已經在4月29號、5月16號、28號、6月25號及30號召開五次研商會議，就警察人員人事條例第三十五條規定確立法制適用原則。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:27:58.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:05.462000+08:00","text":"既然是確立法制適用原則，那麼這五次開會的法制適用原則有說不發嗎？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:05.462000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:06.462000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們談的是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:05.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:09.984000+08:00","text":"從來沒有說不發？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:09.984000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:10.984000+08:00","text":"講的是怎麼樣分工、怎麼樣來做……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:09.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:13.765000+08:00","text":"內政部有沒有說不發？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:13.765000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:14.765000+08:00","text":"沒有，會上我們討論的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:13.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:15.406000+08:00","text":"其他的有關機關有哪些？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:17.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:20.488000+08:00","text":"海巡署、警察大學、消防署……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:21.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:21.649000+08:00","text":"大家都說要發？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:22.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:26.482000+08:00","text":"我們在會上就是討論我們怎麼樣去做這件事情。是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:27.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:31.304000+08:00","text":"但現在問題來了，根本沒有編預算要怎麼發？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:31.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:31.764000+08:00","text":"這就是我的問題啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:35.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:40.607000+08:00","text":"法律生效通過了以後，我們依法論法，我不跟你談政治，我依法論法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:41.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:50.191000+08:00","text":"退休警消依照三讀生效通過以後的法律，對於國家是不是產生公法上的金錢請求權？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:50.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:28:52.332000+08:00","text":"是還是不是？是。是嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:28:53.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:00.274000+08:00","text":"國家公法上的金錢請求權會因為政府有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:00.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:00.974000+08:00","text":"會不會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:01.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:02.955000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有沒有編預算……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:03.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:07.156000+08:00","text":"對不起，請你針對我的問題回答，時間有限。","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:07.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:16.558000+08:00","text":"但是那個預算，我的理解、就我有限的理解，預算支出也要有經過預算程序通過的名目跟相關規範。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:18.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:20.400000+08:00","text":"名目不就警察人員人事條例？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:20.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:29.788000+08:00","text":"你剛剛也講了，這是法律義務支出，是退休警消對國家公法上的金錢請求權，所以我剛剛問你的問題請你不要迴避！","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:29.788000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:30.849000+08:00","text":"但是那一條上面有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:30.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:33.311000+08:00","text":"不好意思，請你針對我的問題回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:33.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:34.232000+08:00","text":"我說明一下。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:34.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:39.596000+08:00","text":"那一條上面有講到，因此額外增加的要由政府編列預算支應……當然！對啊！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:40.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:42.278000+08:00","text":"法制作業上本來就是如此。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:42.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:54.632000+08:00","text":"我現在問你的是，公務人員對國家公法上的金錢請求權會因為國家有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:54.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:29:59.519000+08:00","text":"這是基本的法律問題，大二上過行政法的人都知道耶，不敢回答喔？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:29:59.519000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:01.733000+08:00","text":"我們部裡面的立場就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:01.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:04.975000+08:00","text":"現在連考試院都看著上意在辦事喔？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:05.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:10.239000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我們部裡面的立場就是把我們該做的、該審查的，就如同……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:10.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:13.041000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，你們現在電腦作業什麼時候會做完？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:13.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:17.504000+08:00","text":"我們應該在10月左右就可以……因為我們現在已經……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:18.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:18.845000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會做完？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:20.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:23.703000+08:00","text":"做完了以後，要不要按照你們部裡面的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:23.703000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:24.703000+08:00","text":"大概10月左右。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:24.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:33.370000+08:00","text":"我先講你們部裡面的就好了，你們部裡面做完以後，要不要針對重新核定的退休金寄發通知給所有的警消？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:33.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:34.511000+08:00","text":"要還是不要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:34.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:35.592000+08:00","text":"要，這個我們會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:35.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:36.772000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會發？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:36.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:43.397000+08:00","text":"這個部分就誠如在22號答復您的，我們會在12月底以前把它完成，上一次我也是這樣跟您報告。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:44.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:30:48.300000+08:00","text":"好，記得12月底以前，該給人家的通知要通知，可以嗎？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:30:49.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:31:27.280000+08:00","text":"不會因為說現在沒有編預算，賴清德跟卓榮泰說不給就不發通知，這個通知很重要，因為這些退休的警消到時候拿到通知了以後才知道，接下來如果要透過行政訴訟的方式要求國家履行這個公法上的金錢請求權，才知道計算的金額是多少、訴之聲明要怎麼寫，所以站在考試院的立場，不應該被政治所左右，依法你們要核發給人家的通知，依照警察人員人事條例重新核定的退休金應該要多少錢，這個通知就會發出去，對不對？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:31:27.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:31:29.402000+08:00","text":"對，我們部裡面做我們部裡面要做的事情。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:31:29.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:31:30.524000+08:00","text":"什麼時候可以發完？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:31:31.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:31:33.040000+08:00","text":"我們就跟您報告，12月底以前我們會……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:31:33.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:31:34.782000+08:00","text":"好，12月底以前把它發完。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:31:35.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:31:43.188000+08:00","text":"下一個問題，國發基金不當投資，我上次一直在追，這個莫名其妙，怎麼會有這麼離譜的事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:31:44.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:31:55.779000+08:00","text":"一個決定拿納稅人的錢去投資的人，結果做了會議主席投資完了以後，自己跑去那家被投資的公司當董事，我的老天啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:31:56.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:32:14.810000+08:00","text":"這明顯違反旋轉門條款，我開始追這件事情的時候，結果國發會給我回文說「依照銓敘部回復並重申該部八十五年函釋，有關旋轉門條款規定所稱職務直接相關……」，什麼職務直接相關？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:32:14.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:32:15.791000+08:00","text":"避免權力濫用嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:32:17.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:32:36.627000+08:00","text":"你職務直接相關的，我現在代表國發基金，我是執行秘書，我還擔任這個審查委員會的主席，我決定要投資這家公司，結果我跑去這家公司當董事，這當然是跟職務直接相關，這當然是跟職務直接相關！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:32:37.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:03.858000+08:00","text":"你甚至不用念法律系，甚至不用念一般行政，你隨便問一個有公民素養的高中生就知道這絕對職務直接相關，結果國發會說我們有發函給銓敘部，銓敘部給我們的回復說，必須要各該營利事業的目的事業主管機關，或者是離職前具有營建或採購業務相關關係。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:03.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:19.254000+08:00","text":"現在問題來了，公務人員服務法的職務直接相關，什麼時候給銓敘部這樣的權限，透過你們的函釋把範圍限縮掉，脫逸法律規範之本旨？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:19.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:22.899000+08:00","text":"你要不要說明一下，現在是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:22.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:23.240000+08:00","text":"官官相護嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:24.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:28.637000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，這個服務法的旋轉門條款，就是當時的服務法第十三條。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:28.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:39.806000+08:00","text":"因為當初第十三條通過的文字，在考試院院會有針對這個部分未來在執行應該如何執行，有做過一個更精準的、具體怎麼樣去處理。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:40.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:46.191000+08:00","text":"民國85年這個函釋就是根據當時銓敘部報給考試院的說明資料所做的。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:47.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:49.634000+08:00","text":"因為違反服務法，基本上它有兩個效果，一個是他可能會被……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:50.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:54.658000+08:00","text":"對不起，先不用講效果，我們先回到法條構成文字。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:55.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:33:59.362000+08:00","text":"為什麼銓敘部把職務直接相關限縮到這種程度？","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:33:59.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:02.244000+08:00","text":"這是我現在的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:02.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:06.768000+08:00","text":"因為在85年通過這個法律的時候，大家認為到底這個條文應該怎麼去執行……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:06.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:18.438000+08:00","text":"不是，那我就直接問你，今天我是國發基金的執行秘書，這個投資會議我當主席，通過了以後，我跑去被投資的公司當董事，這個是不是職務直接相關？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:19.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:27.204000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，因為他是否職務相關會產生後面的法律效果，這是由法院來決定，因為後面會有將近兩年的徒刑跟100萬元的罰金。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:27.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:28.245000+08:00","text":"不是，根本不會！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:28.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:30.947000+08:00","text":"按照你們現在做的方式……","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:30.947000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:32.248000+08:00","text":"這個有沒有違反，要由法院來確定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:32.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:35.590000+08:00","text":"不會由法院決定，為什麼不會由法院決定？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:36.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:37.652000+08:00","text":"國發會就擋在前面啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:38.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:47.760000+08:00","text":"用銓敘部的函釋當靠山，說依照銓敘部的函釋，這個沒有違反旋轉門條款，接下來就不會發動下一步的法律程序。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:48.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:34:52.664000+08:00","text":"我直接給你看例子，這有沒有違反旋轉門條款？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:34:53.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:04.339000+08:00","text":"臺中市工務局局長離職以後三年內跑去一家營造廠當總經理，這有沒有違反旋轉門條款？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:05.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:10.540000+08:00","text":"你就本於考試院剛剛的函釋回答我這個問題就好了，有還是沒有？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:11.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:14.981000+08:00","text":"這個還要看他……因為我記得我們85年那個函釋，還有包括有採購關係、營建關係都是。","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:15.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:15.561000+08:00","text":"是、是、是。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:15.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:16.702000+08:00","text":"所以這個案子要看……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:16.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:19.742000+08:00","text":"他沒有採購關係，也沒有營造關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:19.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:21.803000+08:00","text":"這個要看當年他跟他之間是不是有這個……這個是個案，我沒有辦法回應這個問題。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:21.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:25.844000+08:00","text":"沒有，我現在就跟你講沒有，這樣子有沒有違反旋轉門條款？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:26.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:29.967000+08:00","text":"按你們的函釋，沒有違反旋轉門條款，為什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:29.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:35.010000+08:00","text":"因為所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部，我只要不要任職經濟部就好了。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:36.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:43.296000+08:00","text":"所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部，公司法規定的很清楚，那代表什麼？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:43.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:51.742000+08:00","text":"按照你們這個函釋，只要不是任職經濟部或者是地方目的事業主管機關經濟局的，通通不會違反旋轉門條款。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:53.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:35:58.201000+08:00","text":"我跟他不要有採購，不要有營造的關係，但我可以跟他有什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:35:58.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:36:06.344000+08:00","text":"我可以事後去他公司當總經理、當董事長，通通都不會違反旋轉門條款啊！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:36:06.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:36:07.704000+08:00","text":"我為什麼提這個案子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:36:10.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:36:23.743000+08:00","text":"當初這個人在法院接受審判的時候，他就說依照考試院的函釋，他不是在目的事業主管機關，是在工務局，不是在經濟局耶。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:36:24.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:36:34.013000+08:00","text":"而且第二個，這家公司跟他任職的臺中市政府沒有採購關係，也沒有營造關係，所以沒有違反公務員服務法。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:36:34.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:36:49.990000+08:00","text":"百分之一百就是用你們考試院的函釋來當擋箭牌，百分之一百就是用你們考試院的函釋來當擋箭牌，結果當擋箭牌最後的結果是什麼？","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:36:50.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:36:59.640000+08:00","text":"我一個字都沒改，當初他在法院的時候就是用這個當擋箭牌，最後的結果是被法官打槍，有罪確定！","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:00.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:05.686000+08:00","text":"被法官打槍，有罪確定，胡說八道，把大家當笨蛋。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:07.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:10.597000+08:00","text":"這不是跟職務直接相關，什麼是跟職務直接相關？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:10.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:12.300000+08:00","text":"但這個是法院要認定，這不是我們部裡面可以認定的……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:13.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:20.825000+08:00","text":"是，現在就出現問題了，為什麼考試院做了函釋，就法律應該有的解釋，什麼叫函釋？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:21.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:24.047000+08:00","text":"法律應該有什麼解釋？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:24.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:35.712000+08:00","text":"做正確的解釋，你們的解釋被法院打臉了，85年，恐龍時代的函釋到2025年繼續用，而且用來包庇什麼？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:35.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:36.553000+08:00","text":"用來包庇綠友友！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:39.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:39.975000+08:00","text":"這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:41.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:45.689000+08:00","text":"法院的判決都打臉你們的函釋了，這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:45.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:48.051000+08:00","text":"這個函釋現在被拿來幹嘛？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:49.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:53.334000+08:00","text":"被拿來在國發基金裡面胡搞瞎搞的人當擋箭牌。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:37:54.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:37:59.399000+08:00","text":"國發基金投資的對象、投資的每一家公司，目的事業主管機關全部都是經濟部，絕對都不是國發會。哇！","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:38:04.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:38:23.077000+08:00","text":"真的是見獵心喜、喜出望外，國發會愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，因為這些公司的目的事業主管機關都是經濟部，不是國發會，所以按照考試院的函釋，這個都不是跟職務直接相關，考試院要不要回去重新檢討一下？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:38:23.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:38:25.438000+08:00","text":"很丟臉！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:38:27.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:38:41.801000+08:00","text":"85年的函釋被法院打臉了，到2025年不改，繼續被拿來包庇，被這些胡搞瞎搞的官員當作擋箭牌，考試院很閒嗎？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:38:41.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:38:42.841000+08:00","text":"還是考試院太忙了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:38:44.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:38:54.062000+08:00","text":"這麼重要的函釋，被法院判決打臉，現在繼續被拿來當擋箭牌，考試院針對這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:38:54.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:03.389000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，每個違反服務法的、被法院判決都是有很……法院都有很細的調查，這中間都有一些證據或什麼來推論……","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:03.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:04.990000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，事實我們沒有爭執……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:04.990000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:06.471000+08:00","text":"作為考試院的部分，我們從未就個案認定他有沒有違反服務法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:06.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:16.297000+08:00","text":"現在我在跟你講的是法律解釋的問題，請你不要把法律解釋的問題又把它拉到事實認定的問題，這個事實很清楚了。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:17.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:21.942000+08:00","text":"這個事實非常清楚，事實認定一點問題都沒有，唯一有的問題是什麼？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:21.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:25.865000+08:00","text":"法律解釋，而這個莫名其妙的法律解釋是哪裡來的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:27.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:36.233000+08:00","text":"就是從考試院來的，我有說錯嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:36.233000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:37.233000+08:00","text":"所以我們要尊重法院的判決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:36.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:50.368000+08:00","text":"當然要尊重法院的判決，所以我才叫你回去改函釋，這個函釋被法院打臉了，你又說要尊重法院判決，又在那邊繼續拗，這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:50.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:50.929000+08:00","text":"要還是不要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:53.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:54.490000+08:00","text":"要不要回去重新檢討？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:54.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:55.030000+08:00","text":"要還是不要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:55.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:39:58.631000+08:00","text":"我們可以再重新檢討看一下這個個案到底是什麼狀況……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:39:58.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:40:12.021000+08:00","text":"好，沒有關係，召委站起來了，回去重新檢討，你不用去看個案，直接看你自己在法院的判決裡面被打臉的法律見解就好，丟人現眼啊！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:40:15.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:40:25.012000+08:00","text":"85年的函釋到2025年變成在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人的擋箭牌，莫名其妙！","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:40:27.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:40:54.787000+08:00","text":"我對考試院本來還有一點尊重，如果今天考試院要幫這種在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人築起防火牆，我直接跟你們講這件事情絕對沒完沒了，國發基金是納稅人的錢，不是民進黨的黨庫！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:40:54.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:40:55.247000+08:00","text":"可以這樣搞？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:40:58.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:40:59.530000+08:00","text":"檢討要多少時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:40:59.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:40:59.931000+08:00","text":"一個月夠不夠？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:01.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:02.390000+08:00","text":"檢討函釋就好了啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:02.390000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:03.390000+08:00","text":"因為這個當初是考試院的決議，我們沒辦法來說明……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:02.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:02.910000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，請秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:02.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:03.450000+08:00","text":"檢討要多少時間，一個月夠不夠？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:15.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:19.048000+08:00","text":"委員，讓我們回去研究一下，我想85年的函釋是不是有當時的思考範圍……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:19.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:22.330000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，你們需要多少時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:22.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:29.796000+08:00","text":"會後書面回復給我，我不是要你回復答案，回復給我你們研究這個函釋需要多少時間。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:30.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:31.317000+08:00","text":"今天下班以前回復給我，可以嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:31.317000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:32.317000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:31.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:31.337000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:31.837000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:33.551286+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T09:41:33.851286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T09:41:36.994143+08:00","text":"下一位請羅智強委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時16分）謝謝主席。在開始進行詢答以前，我大概有個會議程序上面的事項，可能是詢問，可能也是建議。因為剛剛聽到考試院秘書長報告說這個法律案其實考試院本來有準備，早就要送來審議了，結果行政院有意見，行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關。如果行政院搶著要當這個法的主管機關，顯然行政院對這個法有非常強烈的意見。","既然行政院搶著要當主管機關，攸關本法的行政機關到底應該是由考試院還是行政院，我建議接下來處理法案的時候，請行政院派有代表權的人來，因為行政院搶著要當主管機關，那行政院就要來這邊把立場講清楚嘛！因為行政院搶著當主管機關，針對政務人員行為基準法，他們認為應該有發言的權利，看起來似乎也沒有排斥這個法有立法的必要，但是我們看到過去行政院，特別是行政院的政務官，從閣員到次長，剛剛我聽秘書長講，還有考試院的書面報告說公務員服務法裡面有一些規範，政務人員也有遵守，譬如其中服務法所定應該謹慎發言，那我就看不懂啦！如果這個法對政務人員有適用的話，過去這段時間，行政院的這些閣員有謹慎發言嗎？可以指著在野黨的立委說你吃臺灣米做中國鬼嗎？可以在臉書上面說726大罷免沒有成功，要繼續剿匪嗎？這是哪門子謹慎發言啊？這種問題要考試院回答，他們也很尷尬，不敢得罪當道，等一下我如果上來是問這種問題，只是讓考試院尷尬，他們不敢得罪當道嘛！有辦法回答這種問題的，恐怕可能要請現在賴著不下臺的卓榮泰，由行政院派一個有代表權的來，不然這個法案要怎麼審？光主管機關就吵不完了，這個是我在針對這個法案要進行實質審查以前給召委的建議。如果今天要進行實質逐條的審查，我也支持。","等一下是不是請議事人員……等一下法案進行逐條的時候，請卓榮泰趕快派一個代表來，謝謝主席。"],["主席：跟黃委員報告，有關這部分其實我之前有思考過，我也知道行政院突然希望能當主管機關。我自己思考過幾個問題，我還是相信我國有權力分立，雖然現在在實務上看起來我國權力分立似乎是一個幌子，完全違反孟德斯鳩的概念。當行政權、立法權及司法權結合的時候，帶來的就是專制，這是孟德斯鳩講的。專制的原理是什麼？就是恐怖，而臺灣就是走向這樣，但我還是相信我們可能還是有權力分立！依照現在的制度，我們公務員……"],["王委員義川：這是在聊天吧？"],["主席：不是！我在回答問題！王委員，我在回答，我剛才有說跟黃委員報告。你還沒進來之前，他已經說是會議詢問，所以我現在回答他，王委員，請不要干擾議事，謝謝。我也很尊重你的。"],["羅委員智強：尊重主席啦！"],["主席：我很尊重王委員。"],["王委員義川：你們要聊天……"],["主席：王委員，我很尊重你……"],["王委員義川：你在講你的意見……"],["主席：我在回答他問題，我回答他問題要經過你同意嗎？王委員，請問一下，我回答其他委員的問題需要王委員你這位大人同意嗎？我跟你講……"],["王委員義川：都這樣！你說講幾分鐘，每次他都講幾分鐘……"],["羅委員智強：你去選召委啦！你去選召委啦！"],["王委員義川：昨天說6分鐘，結果講了幾分鐘？你自己講6分鐘……"],["主席：王委員，如果你要這樣子要求我們開會時，每一個人時間到都停止發言，請你問問陳培瑜、吳思瑤，我是不是都讓大家講完？"],["王委員義川：講幾分鐘？"],["主席：我是不是都讓大家儘量講完？"],["羅委員智強：王義川，你夠了沒有？尊重主席！"],["主席：除非今天的會議時間拖太長……"],["羅委員智強：王義川，請你尊重主席！"],["主席：王委員，如果你不懂議事規則，請回去把議事規則搞清楚！"],["王委員義川：你昨天說一個人講6分鐘，他講幾分鐘？你講幾分鐘？"],["羅委員智強：王義川，你去約束……你們民進黨的人也有逾時，好不好？"],["主席：你要不要去看看貴黨的陳培瑜委員、吳思瑤委員，我沒有干擾他們？我都讓他們把話講完……"],["王委員義川：一個人只能講6分鐘，你不用講……"],["主席：我跟你講，各委員會有各委員會作法……"],["羅委員智強：你去改內規啊！"],["王委員義川：你就直接開罵……"],["主席：我跟你講，你去當民進黨的召委，你來主持會議！你下個會期就當召委，好不好？"],["王委員義川：都聽你的啦！"],["主席：我跟你講，在這邊跟你吵架是拉低我們自己的格調，不用在國會吵架給全國人民看，這是拉低我們的格調！"],["王委員義川：你們兩個都拉低格調啦！"],["主席：但是我跟你說，王委員，今天黃委員在議事詢問，所以我回答他的問題；如果你等一下有問題要問我，請你到臺上來！你到臺上來之後，我也會回答你的問題，其他就不用多說了！不管你講什麼，今天會議是我主持。如果你對議事的主持這麼有興趣，麻煩你當下一任召委，你來制止我們講話，我OK，我沒有意見。至於今天在這邊，各委員會有各委員會的作法，從這屆（第11屆）第1會期到現在，我主持了三個會期，我是不是都儘量讓大家講完？雖然我們規定講8分鐘，這是訓示規定，但各委員會有不同的文化，有的文化是8分鐘一到，立刻關掉麥克風。但是本委員會，包括莊瑞雄委員在主持，都是儘量讓大家講完，除非真的講太長了，我們才會制止！你可以去看過去的VOD是不是都這樣？這部分我不會騙你，我不會因為面對黃國昌就讓他講到高興，面對陳培瑜就不讓他講！你可以去看看過去我主持會議是不是都是這樣公平？如果等一下你對會議有什麼問題，歡迎你到前面來問。王委員，基本上我對你是很尊重的，一直以來我對你都很尊重。我們不要在這邊吵架給全國人民看，我覺得這真的不好，真的降低國會議員彼此的格調，好不好？王委員，不好意思，就這樣。","黃委員，我要回答你的問題。你剛剛說要請行政院派人來，為什麼我今天沒有請行政院來？雖然行政院有說要當主管機關。過往我們所看到的，不管是公務員服務法或一些懲戒事項，或公務員中立法等等，主管機關是考試院，而非行政院。我認為考慮到體例上的一貫，應該還是由考試院來，這就是為什麼我今天沒有請行政院派人來的主要原因。當然，我們在審查法條時，如果行政院要求要擔任主管機關的話，未來審查時我們可能就會請行政院派人過來。","第二個，如果今天由行政院擔任主管機關的話，我擔心會球員兼裁判，所以我剛才會提到還是相信權力分立這句話。各位不要直接說我在發表自己的意見，我從頭到尾都是在回答黃國昌委員的問題！為什麼今天沒有叫行政院來？行政院明明說要當主管機關。我在這邊向各位報告，我還是相信臺灣有權力分立！在權力分立之下，考試院跟行政院是一樣大的，考試院並沒有低於行政院。目前主管機關有考試院，所以我今天才會請考試院來，這是就憲政制度上面的說明，絕對不是要跟大家吵架。如果你們覺得我對於我國的憲政制度，或對五權分立有誤解的話，歡迎來打臉我，我對法律的論述一直都是這樣，我也很尊重不同意見的人。","以上是我對黃國昌委員的回答，不知道有沒有回答到你的問題？"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，尊重召委的安排。不過行政院搶著當主管機關到底是真的有要立法，還是在阻礙立法？沒有關係，我們在審法案的時候繼續看下去。"],["主席：黃委員要找哪一位？"],["黃委員國昌：現在是不是有請考試院？"],["主席：麻煩請考試院。"],["黃委員國昌：考試院秘書長，你要不要休息一下？因為我有點擔心，還是你先休息，請次長上來就好。"],["主席：麻煩懷次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好。上一次質詢你的時候我有問，有警消跟我投訴，他們一直有得到消息，本院三讀通過的法律，針對提高警消所得替代率，相關部門能拖就拖、能混就混，擺明就是沒有要發。為什麼我上次質詢時會特別問這個問題？警察人員人事條例修法已經三讀通過，總統已經公布了，因此就作業時間，我不斷關心到底什麼時候會處理？上一次你給我的回答是12月以前你們會依法執行，因為現在有很多事情在忙，什麼電腦系統在調整之類的。但我現在已經有一點看不太清楚了，因為行政院連預算都沒有編！如果連預算都沒有編，12月底以前要怎麼依法執行？你當初就知道會發生這樣的事情，故意裝不知道在騙我嗎？還是你根本就不知道？"],["懷次長敍：這個我不會知道！預算編列是依照憲法規定，這……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我們一條一條來。你上次回給我的書面說明提到，相關的執行作業本部、內政部及有關機關已經在4月29號、5月16號、28號、6月25號及30號召開五次研商會議，就警察人員人事條例第三十五條規定確立法制適用原則。既然是確立法制適用原則，那麼這五次開會的法制適用原則有說不發嗎？"],["懷次長敍：沒有，我們談的是……"],["黃委員國昌：從來沒有說不發？"],["懷次長敍：講的是怎麼樣分工、怎麼樣來做……"],["黃委員國昌：內政部有沒有說不發？"],["懷次長敍：沒有，會上我們討論的……"],["黃委員國昌：其他的有關機關有哪些？"],["懷次長敍：海巡署、警察大學、消防署……"],["黃委員國昌：大家都說要發？"],["懷次長敍：我們在會上就是討論我們怎麼樣去做這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！但現在問題來了，根本沒有編預算要怎麼發？這就是我的問題啊！法律生效通過了以後，我們依法論法，我不跟你談政治，我依法論法。退休警消依照三讀生效通過以後的法律，對於國家是不是產生公法上的金錢請求權？是還是不是？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嗎？國家公法上的金錢請求權會因為政府有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎？會不會？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，有沒有編預算……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，請你針對我的問題回答，時間有限。"],["懷次長敍：但是那個預算，我的理解、就我有限的理解，預算支出也要有經過預算程序通過的名目跟相關規範。"],["黃委員國昌：名目不就警察人員人事條例？你剛剛也講了，這是法律義務支出，是退休警消對國家公法上的金錢請求權，所以我剛剛問你的問題請你不要迴避！"],["懷次長敍：但是那一條上面有……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，請你針對我的問題回答。"],["懷次長敍：我說明一下。那一條上面有講到，因此額外增加的要由政府編列預算支應……"],["黃委員國昌：當然！"],["懷次長敍：對啊！"],["黃委員國昌：法制作業上本來就是如此。我現在問你的是，公務人員對國家公法上的金錢請求權會因為國家有沒有編預算而受到影響嗎？這是基本的法律問題，大二上過行政法的人都知道耶，不敢回答喔？"],["懷次長敍：我們部裡面的立場就是……"],["黃委員國昌：現在連考試院都看著上意在辦事喔？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，我們部裡面的立場就是把我們該做的、該審查的，就如同……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你們現在電腦作業什麼時候會做完？"],["懷次長敍：我們應該在10月左右就可以……因為我們現在已經……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會做完？做完了以後，要不要按照你們部裡面的……"],["懷次長敍：大概10月左右。"],["黃委員國昌：我先講你們部裡面的就好了，你們部裡面做完以後，要不要針對重新核定的退休金寄發通知給所有的警消？要還是不要？"],["懷次長敍：要，這個我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會發？"],["懷次長敍：這個部分就誠如在22號答復您的，我們會在12月底以前把它完成，上一次我也是這樣跟您報告。"],["黃委員國昌：好，記得12月底以前，該給人家的通知要通知，可以嗎？不會因為說現在沒有編預算，賴清德跟卓榮泰說不給就不發通知，這個通知很重要，因為這些退休的警消到時候拿到通知了以後才知道，接下來如果要透過行政訴訟的方式要求國家履行這個公法上的金錢請求權，才知道計算的金額是多少、訴之聲明要怎麼寫，所以站在考試院的立場，不應該被政治所左右，依法你們要核發給人家的通知，依照警察人員人事條例重新核定的退休金應該要多少錢，這個通知就會發出去，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：對，我們部裡面做我們部裡面要做的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以發完？"],["懷次長敍：我們就跟您報告，12月底以前我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：好，12月底以前把它發完。","下一個問題，國發基金不當投資，我上次一直在追，這個莫名其妙，怎麼會有這麼離譜的事？一個決定拿納稅人的錢去投資的人，結果做了會議主席投資完了以後，自己跑去那家被投資的公司當董事，我的老天啊！這明顯違反旋轉門條款，我開始追這件事情的時候，結果國發會給我回文說「依照銓敘部回復並重申該部八十五年函釋，有關旋轉門條款規定所稱職務直接相關……」，什麼職務直接相關？避免權力濫用嘛！你職務直接相關的，我現在代表國發基金，我是執行秘書，我還擔任這個審查委員會的主席，我決定要投資這家公司，結果我跑去這家公司當董事，這當然是跟職務直接相關，這當然是跟職務直接相關！你甚至不用念法律系，甚至不用念一般行政，你隨便問一個有公民素養的高中生就知道這絕對職務直接相關，結果國發會說我們有發函給銓敘部，銓敘部給我們的回復說，必須要各該營利事業的目的事業主管機關，或者是離職前具有營建或採購業務相關關係。現在問題來了，公務人員服務法的職務直接相關，什麼時候給銓敘部這樣的權限，透過你們的函釋把範圍限縮掉，脫逸法律規範之本旨？你要不要說明一下，現在是什麼？官官相護嗎？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，這個服務法的旋轉門條款，就是當時的服務法第十三條。因為當初第十三條通過的文字，在考試院院會有針對這個部分未來在執行應該如何執行，有做過一個更精準的、具體怎麼樣去處理。民國85年這個函釋就是根據當時銓敘部報給考試院的說明資料所做的。因為違反服務法，基本上它有兩個效果，一個是他可能會被……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，先不用講效果，我們先回到法條構成文字。為什麼銓敘部把職務直接相關限縮到這種程度？這是我現在的問題。"],["懷次長敍：因為在85年通過這個法律的時候，大家認為到底這個條文應該怎麼去執行……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，那我就直接問你，今天我是國發基金的執行秘書，這個投資會議我當主席，通過了以後，我跑去被投資的公司當董事，這個是不是職務直接相關？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，因為他是否職務相關會產生後面的法律效果，這是由法院來決定，因為後面會有將近兩年的徒刑跟100萬元的罰金。"],["黃委員國昌：不是，根本不會！按照你們現在做的方式……"],["懷次長敍：這個有沒有違反，要由法院來確定。"],["黃委員國昌：不會由法院決定，為什麼不會由法院決定？國發會就擋在前面啦！用銓敘部的函釋當靠山，說依照銓敘部的函釋，這個沒有違反旋轉門條款，接下來就不會發動下一步的法律程序。","我直接給你看例子，這有沒有違反旋轉門條款？臺中市工務局局長離職以後三年內跑去一家營造廠當總經理，這有沒有違反旋轉門條款？你就本於考試院剛剛的函釋回答我這個問題就好了，有還是沒有？"],["懷次長敍：這個還要看他……因為我記得我們85年那個函釋，還有包括有採購關係、營建關係都是。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是。"],["懷次長敍：所以這個案子要看……"],["黃委員國昌：他沒有採購關係，也沒有營造關係。"],["懷次長敍：這個要看當年他跟他之間是不是有這個……這個是個案，我沒有辦法回應這個問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我現在就跟你講沒有，這樣子有沒有違反旋轉門條款？按你們的函釋，沒有違反旋轉門條款，為什麼？因為所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部，我只要不要任職經濟部就好了。所有公司的主管機關都是經濟部，公司法規定的很清楚，那代表什麼？按照你們這個函釋，只要不是任職經濟部或者是地方目的事業主管機關經濟局的，通通不會違反旋轉門條款。我跟他不要有採購，不要有營造的關係，但我可以跟他有什麼？我可以事後去他公司當總經理、當董事長，通通都不會違反旋轉門條款啊！我為什麼提這個案子？當初這個人在法院接受審判的時候，他就說依照考試院的函釋，他不是在目的事業主管機關，是在工務局，不是在經濟局耶。而且第二個，這家公司跟他任職的臺中市政府沒有採購關係，也沒有營造關係，所以沒有違反公務員服務法。百分之一百就是用你們考試院的函釋來當擋箭牌，百分之一百就是用你們考試院的函釋來當擋箭牌，結果當擋箭牌最後的結果是什麼？我一個字都沒改，當初他在法院的時候就是用這個當擋箭牌，最後的結果是被法官打槍，有罪確定！被法官打槍，有罪確定，胡說八道，把大家當笨蛋。這不是跟職務直接相關，什麼是跟職務直接相關？"],["懷次長敍：但這個是法院要認定，這不是我們部裡面可以認定的……"],["黃委員國昌：是，現在就出現問題了，為什麼考試院做了函釋，就法律應該有的解釋，什麼叫函釋？法律應該有什麼解釋？做正確的解釋，你們的解釋被法院打臉了，85年，恐龍時代的函釋到2025年繼續用，而且用來包庇什麼？用來包庇綠友友！這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？法院的判決都打臉你們的函釋了，這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？這個函釋現在被拿來幹嘛？被拿來在國發基金裡面胡搞瞎搞的人當擋箭牌。國發基金投資的對象、投資的每一家公司，目的事業主管機關全部都是經濟部，絕對都不是國發會。哇！真的是見獵心喜、喜出望外，國發會愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞，因為這些公司的目的事業主管機關都是經濟部，不是國發會，所以按照考試院的函釋，這個都不是跟職務直接相關，考試院要不要回去重新檢討一下？很丟臉！85年的函釋被法院打臉了，到2025年不改，繼續被拿來包庇，被這些胡搞瞎搞的官員當作擋箭牌，考試院很閒嗎？還是考試院太忙了？這麼重要的函釋，被法院判決打臉，現在繼續被拿來當擋箭牌，考試院針對這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，每個違反服務法的、被法院判決都是有很……法院都有很細的調查，這中間都有一些證據或什麼來推論……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，事實我們沒有爭執……"],["懷次長敍：作為考試院的部分，我們從未就個案認定他有沒有違反服務法……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在跟你講的是法律解釋的問題，請你不要把法律解釋的問題又把它拉到事實認定的問題，這個事實很清楚了。這個事實非常清楚，事實認定一點問題都沒有，唯一有的問題是什麼？法律解釋，而這個莫名其妙的法律解釋是哪裡來的？就是從考試院來的，我有說錯嗎？"],["懷次長敍：所以我們要尊重法院的判決。"],["黃委員國昌：當然要尊重法院的判決，所以我才叫你回去改函釋，這個函釋被法院打臉了，你又說要尊重法院判決，又在那邊繼續拗，這個函釋要不要回去重新檢討？要還是不要？要不要回去重新檢討？要還是不要？"],["懷次長敍：我們可以再重新檢討看一下這個個案到底是什麼狀況……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，召委站起來了，回去重新檢討，你不用去看個案，直接看你自己在法院的判決裡面被打臉的法律見解就好，丟人現眼啊！85年的函釋到2025年變成在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人的擋箭牌，莫名其妙！我對考試院本來還有一點尊重，如果今天考試院要幫這種在國發基金胡搞瞎搞的人築起防火牆，我直接跟你們講這件事情絕對沒完沒了，國發基金是納稅人的錢，不是民進黨的黨庫！可以這樣搞？檢討要多少時間？一個月夠不夠？檢討函釋就好了啦！"],["懷次長敍：因為這個當初是考試院的決議，我們沒辦法來說明……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，請秘書長。檢討要多少時間，一個月夠不夠？"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員，讓我們回去研究一下，我想85年的函釋是不是有當時的思考範圍……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你們需要多少時間？會後書面回復給我，我不是要你回復答案，回復給我你們研究這個函釋需要多少時間。今天下班以前回復給我，可以嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}