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趙偉說 歡迎打臉他 我不敢啦但是我們來交換一下觀點跟分享一下彼此挑戰一下喔莫德斯就說自由就是做法律所允許的事的這份權利 沒有錯嘛所以翻成白話文就是說在無法無天的社會裡面沒有人是自由的"},{"start":68.451,"end":94.793,"text":"我怎麼解讀莫德斯鳩他的這些的論述呢我先從一個部分我建議主席可以把論法的精神第十一章好好再手讀一下所謂的自由就是做法律所許可的事情的權利裡頭呢所說的是自由是政治上的自由也就是公民在政治上享有的權利也就是自由人是什麼"},{"start":96.058,"end":119.341,"text":"那麼很多學者在討論這個論法的精神十一章其實都會去對應於中國專制社會也就是說人民的法律賦予他的自由他就必須在法律所允許的範圍裡面去享有他可以享有的權利所以在專制的國家社會例如在中國"},{"start":120.478,"end":149.418,"text":"即便法律跟他講你會有一些集會結社出版言論等等說得很好聽但是事實上卻用外力也就是政治力來干預這些人民的自由公民的自由所以學界在講論法的精神十一章都是在反處反思中國的現況而在台灣自由的台灣社會我也非常遺憾我們的立法院會用修正選罷法的方式來拿掉人民"},{"start":150.339,"end":175.957,"text":"在連署的權利給予他更難的難度甚至在一黨委員要修法連罷免的門檻要提高還好這個法律沒有修也就是我用孟德斯鳩的自由論來看到在台灣任何人都不能用外力去影響干預公民的自由很可惜在台灣有些立法委員如此"},{"start":176.843,"end":201.396,"text":"如果要講莫德斯鳩的自由法典裡頭另外一個部分我們要說的是莫德斯鳩一直在強調要用權力來制約權力因為自古至今擁有權力的人都可能濫用權力所以說制約權力就是捍衛自由的第一要務而在台灣如何check and balance就是回到憲法的規定權力分立的原則"},{"start":202.677,"end":216.818,"text":"沒有誰比較大權力分立立法權不能凌駕行政權行政權也不能夠來干涉立法權同樣的立法權不能干預考試院不能干預監察院等等"},{"start":218.129,"end":241.117,"text":"所以說權力的check and balance互相的制約請回到憲法的精神但是在立法院往往因為政治立場的不同用修法來凌駕憲法剛剛昭偉一直在講的憲法法庭憲法法庭什麼時候在野黨的委員這麼尊重憲法法庭了是在野黨的委員惡修了憲訴法癱瘓了憲法法庭"},{"start":243.211,"end":269.782,"text":"如果要遵從憲法法庭的裁判那請讓憲法法庭能夠恢復正常的運作不要惡修憲訴法也不要來影響延宕司法院的人事同意權來干預了這所謂用權力制約權力也就是孟德斯就一直在講的這個原則所以說我做這個分享也跟今天的主題相關來下一頁"},{"start":273.376,"end":277.554,"text":"我不是要講那個嗎 最後那三頁 對不起好 前一頁"},{"start":278.867,"end":307.261,"text":"剛剛主席有問到 我也是要關心一下考試院反年改的附闢建在弦上那會增加政府的財政負擔也會讓年金提早破產 更是踐踏了世代正義也違反憲法的權利分立原則我這裡 我知道考試院的立場 我們的立場一致我只是要提醒我們要嚴正以待因為在野黨已經建在弦上"},{"start":309.159,"end":312.985,"text":"呃 懷次長 這個部分你們有做好什麼樣的因應準備嗎"},{"start":316.356,"end":338.805,"text":"我們大概會根據目前所知道的這樣的可能調整內容我們會做一些財務上的精算以及這樣的調整大概會增加政府的負擔跟我們整個基金所要面臨的這些問題大概我們大概因為這個都是比較具體的數據需要做一些我希望你們做的比過去更多因為警察人員人事條例就是被二修通過了"},{"start":339.978,"end":366.848,"text":"除了表達我們政府的意見提供正確的訊息來提供整個年金的試算要讓所有的公務人員年金不只看得到更要領得到就是保障現役以及未來青年世代的公務同仁除了你們要闡述正確的訊息更要強化遊說在野黨的立委也要擴大對社會的對話"},{"start":368.427,"end":396.314,"text":"我們過去往往只看到行政部門做出一個我的立場結束當我們知道立法院的委員已經箭在弦上他甚至要強推的時候也不要放棄跟在野黨的委員對話以及不要放棄對社會訴求我相信社會尤其青年世代會支持考試院的立場絕對反對年金豆退爐這是我的提醒下一頁"},{"start":397.489,"end":415.449,"text":"同樣的好軍人加薪我就不說了在最後一頁剛剛主席一直在講憲法法庭為什麼行政院沒有編警察人員人事條例跟軍人加薪被片面修法增加的預算大法官已經釋憲過了"},{"start":418.055,"end":438.431,"text":"已經釋憲過了就在35年前35年前的總統是國民黨的李登輝行政院長是國民黨的李煥立法院長是國民黨的劉闊才司法院長是國民黨的林陽港換言之當時的大法官的組成也都是國民黨提名國民黨通過"},{"start":440.052,"end":458.465,"text":"但是那個時候國民黨的立法委員在立法院在審預算的時候做成一個決議要增加公務人員半個月的年終工作獎金所以國民黨的行政院提請了釋憲而國民黨的司法院"},{"start":459.895,"end":478.22,"text":"做出來是違憲的才是因為不能違反憲法70條增加政府預算膨脹政府預算所以用這一個釋字264號在35年前就已經清楚被大法官打臉"},{"start":480.342,"end":508.835,"text":"這一次行政院的警察人員人事條例也好或是國軍加薪被立法院加碼的部分當然已經有釋字264號的解釋跟支撐我在這裡說明以權力來制約權力請服從跟尊重憲法法庭的35年前就已經做出的宣判35年前的國民黨"},{"start":511.417,"end":523.394,"text":"違憲35年後的國民黨還要違憲嗎我回到我泡泡的最前面今天在講政務人員是不是要有個專法我認為立得好"},{"start":524.693,"end":542.166,"text":"比例的快更重要但是當我們看待行政中立要擴大來管制政務人員的時候我又不得不的想到了在野黨的委員要提案想修正立法院組織法"},{"start":544.087,"end":554.855,"text":"讓立法院長可以兼任黨職黨魁這就是破壞了立法院組織法2016年的修法的意識中立"},{"start":556.129,"end":576.565,"text":"所以連議事中立都要破壞現在要來擴大管控政務人員的行政中立我覺得有沒有言以律己寬矣有沒有言以律人寬以待己呢但是吳斯堯同樣支持議事要中立 行政也要中立下一頁"},{"start":578.291,"end":601.969,"text":"所以說過去立法院修的法就是要捍衛議事中立我也呼籲在野黨的委員不要現在要立法來約束政務人員的時候另外為了自己的國會議長開了另外一個後門來強害議事中立我希望這個法案不會提出下一頁但是跟今天相關的幾位"},{"start":603.612,"end":626.233,"text":"我的觀點立法的徵典從過去到現在我印象中考試院送出幾次但是好像在立法院從來沒有在委員會討論過對不對祕書長可能有的有委員會的討論一讀啊他只有一讀其實沒有送到委員會討論或者是送出法案但立法院沒有討論為什麼"},{"start":628.195,"end":647.06,"text":"為什麼這個非常多年前的事就是沒有共識就是我說的這四個爭點第一個有沒有需要在現行已有法治規範之下另立專法第二主管機關要行政院還是考試院這是老問題第三適用對象要擴大納入哪些人成為政務人員"},{"start":648.14,"end":673.452,"text":"的適用對象以及規範的行為到底要規範到哪裡這四個爭點讓過去到現在這麼多年來沒有辦法進展我認為我們可以這一屆立法院好好來討論我支持行政中立我支持政務人員的行為有一個可以討論的專法可以討論下一頁所以一個一個來講"},{"start":675.473,"end":704.513,"text":"现行的政务人员的行为散列在各个法规包括行政中立法公务员服务法公务员惩戒法联刑法一二一条都有收费的罪所以说他规范了很多公务对不起政务人员不得不得不得的这些规范已在各个法规都有了下页有没有需要专法呢国际上有没有部长次长"},{"start":705.762,"end":706.25,"text":"國際上有沒有"},{"start":707.745,"end":735.812,"text":"跟委員報告大概主要國家我們有理解應該是沒有一個專門的法律他們都是跟我們現在狀況是比較像是站在不同法律上所以我這裡做的主要的民主進步國家美國加拿大英德日等等都沒有專法因為都用其他的法的體系在落實台灣需不需要可以討論但是要立得好而不是立得快下一頁另外一個重點適用的對象我就講重點"},{"start":736.992,"end":742.003,"text":"排除了民選首長合理嗎排除了民選首長合理嗎來次長"},{"start":745.858,"end":769.148,"text":"這個當然要一起考慮因為民選地方行政首長他的權限事實上也並不亞於其他部會的政務首長所以可以邀請地方政府一起來討論嘛對不對 擴大討論嘛所以適用的對象有疑義不要掛一漏萬或者是規範了很多卻漏了關鍵的一部分最後再來"},{"start":770.248,"end":790.547,"text":"好主管機關請問你們今天召委已經排了未來再討論的過程你們喬好了沒行政院還是考試院其實跟委員報告大概從第12屆就是前面三屆以來大概在這個部分跟行政院之間都有一些不一樣的觀點"},{"start":791.67,"end":805.557,"text":"那不過這一次如果這個一方面尊重我們立法院的討論那一方面就是說我們也尊重行政院的意見都尊重那行政院呢來你們要接嗎"},{"start":807.182,"end":825.423,"text":"因為我們過去已經有表達過不過剛剛召委提的疑慮的問題我們也跟召委報告如果大家同意由我們行政院來提出那我們行政院還是會會選考試院的所以你們願意主題成為主管機關我們願意主題 然後我們會建議說"},{"start":828.286,"end":847.636,"text":"好 謝謝你的答案因為我也認為讓考試院來進行相對政治性的政務人員的管理是有問題的如果行政院願意接了這個球來研議一個專法 我支持好嗎 期待未來研議的過程行政院扮演多一點角色 最後一頁"},{"start":848.823,"end":868.784,"text":"好这就是我的结论政务人员立专法yes可以讨论但是草率仓促的立法no我们就要思量我支持不管是政院版或是市院版在立法院未来可以并案审查我也支持公听会尤其地方民选首长要排除"},{"start":869.645,"end":892.956,"text":"我們可以擴大跟學者專家中央地方政府的對話討論最後一個要配套如果有一個專法現行的其他法規要不要一併檢討我認為也需要好嗎所以在這裡提醒要有院版要有公聽會要有制度的配套會讓我們未來的政務人員專法的催生更嚴謹更周延好我們一起努力謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:28:32.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:28:40.461000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請劉秘書長、銓敘部懷次長，還有人事行政總處副人事長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-08-28T10:28:40.461000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T10:28:41.461000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:28:40.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:28:40.762000+08:00","text":"大家辛苦了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:28:50.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:29:07.706000+08:00","text":"在司法及法制委員會我非常開心剛剛聽到吳宗憲召委引用了自由法典的創造者──孟德斯鳩過去的一些主張，這是我大學跟研究所的時候一直在研讀的文章。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:29:07.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:29:09.768000+08:00","text":"我剛剛還特別回去再看了一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:29:12.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:29:13.511000+08:00","text":"召委說歡迎打臉他，我不敢啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:29:14.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:29:18.257000+08:00","text":"但是我們來交換一下觀點跟分享一下、彼此挑戰一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:29:19.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:29:24.464000+08:00","text":"孟德斯鳩說，自由就是做法律所允許的事的這份權利。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:29:24.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:29:25.124000+08:00","text":"沒有錯嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:29:25.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:29:34.994000+08:00","text":"所以翻成白話文就是說，在無法無天的社會裡面沒有人是自由的，我怎麼解讀孟德斯鳩的這些論述呢？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:29:35.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:29:57.793000+08:00","text":"我先從一個部分，我建議主席可以把《論法的精神》第11章好好再熟讀一下，所謂的「自由就是做法律所許可的事情的權利」裡頭所說的自由是政治上的自由，也就是公民在政治上享有的權利，也就是自由人是什麼。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:29:59.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:30:07.446000+08:00","text":"很多學者在討論《論法的精神》第11章時，其實都會去對應於中國專制社會。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:30:07.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:30:18.998000+08:00","text":"也就是法律賦予人民自由，他就必須在法律所允許的範圍裡面去享有他可以享有的權利。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:30:19.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:30:37.328000+08:00","text":"在專制的國家社會，例如在中國，即便法律跟他講，他會有一些集會、結社、出版、言論等自由，說得很好聽，實質上卻用外力，也就是政治力，來干預這些人民的自由、公民的自由。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:30:38.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:30:43.612000+08:00","text":"學界在講《論法的精神》第11章時，都是在反芻、反思中國的現況。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:30:43.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:31:06.028000+08:00","text":"而在自由的臺灣社會，我也非常遺憾，立法院會用修正選罷法的方式拿掉人民連署的權利，給予更難的難度，甚至在野黨委員要修法，連罷免的門檻也要提高，還好這個法律沒有修。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:31:07.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:31:18.937000+08:00","text":"我用孟德斯鳩的自由論來看，任何人都不能用外力去影響、干預公民的自由，很可惜在臺灣有些立法委員如此。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:31:19.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:31:38.973000+08:00","text":"如果要講孟德斯鳩的自由法典裡頭，另外一個部分我們要說的是，孟德斯鳩一直在強調要用權力來制約權力，因為自古至今，擁有權力的人都可能濫用權力，所以制約權力就是捍衛自由的第一要務。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:31:38.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:31:41.435000+08:00","text":"而在臺灣如何check and balance？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:31:41.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:32:12.493000+08:00","text":"就是回到憲法的規定──權力分立的原則，沒有誰比較大，權力分立，立法權不能凌駕行政權，行政權也不能夠干涉立法權；同樣地，立法權不能干預考試院、不能干預監察院等等，所以權力的check and balance、互相的制約，請回到憲法的精神，但是在立法院，往往因為政治立場的不同，而用修法來凌駕憲法。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:32:13.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:32:21.036000+08:00","text":"剛剛召委一直在講憲法法庭、憲法法庭，什麼時候在野黨的委員這麼尊重憲法法庭了？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:32:21.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:32:48.620000+08:00","text":"是在野黨的委員惡修了憲訴法，癱瘓了憲法法庭，如果要遵從憲法法庭的裁判，那請讓憲法法庭能夠恢復正常的運作，不要惡修憲訴法，也不要來影響、延宕司法院的人事同意權，干預所謂用權力制約權力，也就是孟德斯鳩一直在講的這個原則。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:32:50.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:32:52.742000+08:00","text":"我做這個分享，也跟今天的主題相關。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:33:01.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:33:04.628000+08:00","text":"剛剛主席有問到，我也要關心一下考試院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:33:06.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:33:19.576000+08:00","text":"反年改復辟、在野黨箭在弦上，那會增加政府的財政負擔，也會讓年金提早破產，更是踐踏了世代正義，也違反憲法的權力分立原則。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:33:20.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:33:30.241000+08:00","text":"我知道考試院的立場，我們的立場一致，我只是要提醒，我們要嚴正以待，因為在野黨已經箭在弦上了。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:33:32.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:33:35.985000+08:00","text":"懷次長，關於這個部分，你們有做好什麼樣的因應、準備嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T10:33:39.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:33:56.183000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們大概會根據目前所知道的可能調整內容，做一些財務上的精算，以及這樣的調整大概會增加政府多少負擔，跟整個基金所要面臨的這些問題，因為這些都是比較具體的數據，需要一些時間來調整。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:33:56.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:34:20.644000+08:00","text":"好，我希望你們做得比過去更多，因為警察人員人事條例就是被惡修通過了，除了要表達政府的意見、提供正確的訊息，並提供整個年金的試算外，還要讓所有公務人員的年金不只看得到，更要領得到，這是保障現役以及未來青年世代的公務同仁。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:34:21.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:34:29.848000+08:00","text":"你們除了要闡述正確的訊息外，更要強化遊說在野黨的立委，也要擴大對社會的對話。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:34:31.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:34:47.931000+08:00","text":"我們過去往往只看到行政部門做出一個「我的立場」就結束，當我們知道立法院的委員已經箭在弦上，甚至要強推的時候，也不要放棄跟在野黨的委員對話，以及不要放棄對社會訴求。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:34:48.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:34:54.153000+08:00","text":"我相信社會，會支持考試院的立場，尤其是青安世代。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:34:54.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:34:58.694000+08:00","text":"絕對反對年金「倒退嚕」，這是我的提醒。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:35:00.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:35:02.852000+08:00","text":"同樣的，軍人加薪，我就不說了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:35:06.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:35:15.806000+08:00","text":"再來，剛剛主席一直在講憲法法庭，為什麼行政院沒有編警察人員人事條例跟軍人加薪被片面修法增加的預算？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:35:17.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:35:22.296000+08:00","text":"大法官已經釋憲過了，已經釋憲過了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:35:22.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:35:41.431000+08:00","text":"就在35年前，35年前的總統是國民黨的李登輝，行政院長是國民黨的李煥，立法院長是國民黨的劉闊才，司法院長是國民黨的林洋港，換言之，當時的大法官的組成也都是國民黨提名、國民黨通過。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:35:43.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:36:05.176000+08:00","text":"但是那個時候國民黨的立法委員在立法院審預算的時候做成一個決議，要增加公務人員半個月的年終工作獎金，所以國民黨的行政院提請了釋憲，而國民黨的司法院做出來是違憲的裁示。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:36:06.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:36:21.220000+08:00","text":"因為不能違反憲法第七十條增加政府預算、膨脹政府預算，所以用這一個釋字第264號在35年前就已經清楚被大法官打臉。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:36:23.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:36:37.348000+08:00","text":"這一次行政院的警察人員人事條例也好或是國軍加薪被立法院加碼的部分，當然已經有釋字第264號的解釋跟支撐。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:36:37.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:36:58.343000+08:00","text":"我在這裡說明，以權力來制約權力，請服從跟尊重憲法法庭35年前就已經做出的宣判，35年前的國民黨違憲，35年後的國民黨還要違憲嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:37:00.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:37:04.131000+08:00","text":"今天在講政務人員是不是要有個專法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:37:04.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:37:37.835000+08:00","text":"我認為立得好比立得快更重要，但是當我們看待行政中立要來擴大管制政務人員的時候，我又不得不想到在野黨委員要提案想修正立法院組織法，讓立法院長可以兼任黨職、黨魁，這就是破壞了立法院組織法2016年修法的議事中立。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:37:40.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:37:53.660000+08:00","text":"連議事中立都要破壞，現在卻要來擴大管控政務人員的行政中立，有沒有嚴以律人、寬以待己呢？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:37:54.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:37:58.624000+08:00","text":"但是吳思瑤同樣支持議事要中立，行政也要中立。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:02.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:38:21.006000+08:00","text":"過去立法院修的法就是要捍衛議事中立，我也呼籲在野黨的委員，不要現在要立法來約束政務人員的時候，卻為了自己的國會議長開了另外一個後門來戕害議事中立，我希望這個法案不會提出。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:22.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:38:40.745000+08:00","text":"但是跟今天相關的，我的觀點、立法的爭點，從過去到現在，我印象中考試院送出幾次，但是好像在立法院從來沒有在委員會討論過，對不對？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:40.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:38:40.745000+08:00","text":"秘書長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:40.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:38:41.906000+08:00","text":"可能有的有委員會的討論，但是不一定有出委員會……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:42.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:38:47.271000+08:00","text":"它只有一讀，其實沒有送到委員會討論。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:47.271000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T10:38:48.271000+08:00","text":"最後都不續審。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:47.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:38:49.233000+08:00","text":"或者是送出法案，但立法院沒有討論，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:51.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:38:52.215000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:52.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:38:52.795000+08:00","text":"也有，這個是非常多年前的事。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:38:53.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:39:16.783000+08:00","text":"就是沒有共識，即我說的這4個爭點：第一，有沒有需要在現行已有法制規範之下另立專法；第二，主管機關要行政院還是考試院，這是老問題；第三，適用對象要擴大納入哪些人成為政務人員的適用對象，以及規範的行為到底要規範到哪裡？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:39:16.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:39:26.147000+08:00","text":"這四個爭點讓過去到現在這麼多年來沒有辦法進展，我認為我們可以在這一屆立法院好好來討論。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:39:26.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:39:35.172000+08:00","text":"我支持行政中立，我支持政務人員的行為有一個專法可以討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:39:36.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:40:04.571000+08:00","text":"一個一個來講，現行的政務人員的行為散列在各個法規，包括行政中立法、公務員服務法、公務員懲戒法，連刑法第一百二十一條都有收賄的罪，所以說它規範了很多政務人員不得、不得、不得的這些規範，已在各個法規都有了，有沒有需要專法呢？","quality":0.687},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:40:05.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:40:06.072000+08:00","text":"國際上有沒有？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:40:06.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:40:09.230000+08:00","text":"部長、次長，國際上有沒有？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T10:40:10.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:40:19.027000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們理解主要國家應該是沒有一個專門的法律，他們都是跟我們現在狀況比較像，散在不同法律上面。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:40:19.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:40:34.771000+08:00","text":"是，所以主要的民主進步國家，包括美國、加拿大、英、德、日等等都沒有專法，因為都用其他的法的體系在落實，臺灣需不需要，可以討論，但是要立得好而而不是立得快。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:40:36.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:40:44.983000+08:00","text":"另外一個爭點，適用的對象，我就講重點，排除了民選首長合理嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:40:44.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:40:45.003000+08:00","text":"來，次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-08-28T10:40:48.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:40:57.642000+08:00","text":"這個當然要一起考慮，因為民選地方行政首長的權限事實上也並不亞於其他部會的政務首長，這個可以一起討論。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:40:57.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:01.063000+08:00","text":"所以可以邀請地方政府一起來討論嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:01.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:02.003000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:02.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:02.604000+08:00","text":"擴大討論嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:03.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:10.987000+08:00","text":"所以適用的對象有疑義，不要掛一漏萬或者是規範了很多卻漏了關鍵的一部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:11.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:20.775000+08:00","text":"最後再來，好，主管機關，請問你們，今天召委已經排了，未來在討論的過程，你們「喬」好了沒？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:21.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:23.217000+08:00","text":"行政院還是考試院？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:25.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:45.195000+08:00","text":"其實跟委員報告，大概從第12屆以來，就是前面3屆以來，大概在這個部分跟行政院之間都有一些不一樣的觀點，不過就這一次，一方面尊重立法院的討論，一方面我們也尊重行政院的意見。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:45.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:46.676000+08:00","text":"都尊重，那行政院呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:48.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:48.557000+08:00","text":"你們要接嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:50.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:41:53.426000+08:00","text":"我們過去已經有表達過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2025-08-28T10:41:53.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:04.178000+08:00","text":"不過剛剛召委提的疑慮的問題，我們也跟召委報告，如果大家同意由行政院來提出，行政院還是會銜考試院，因為這個……","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:05.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:07.362000+08:00","text":"所以你們願意主提，成為主管機關？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:07.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:08.423000+08:00","text":"我們願意主提，然後我們會建議要會銜考試院，因為……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:11.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:12.787000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝你的答案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副人事長秋元","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:12.787000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:13.787000+08:00","text":"因為還有中央還有其他院外……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:13.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:27.214000+08:00","text":"因為我也認為讓考試院來進行相對政治性的政務人員管理是有問題的，如果行政院願意接這個球來研議一個專法，我支持，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:27.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:30.075000+08:00","text":"期待未來研議的過程，行政院扮演多一點角色。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:31.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:41.413000+08:00","text":"好，這就是我的結論，政務人員立專法，Yes，可以討論，但是草率倉促的立法，No，我們就要思量。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:42.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:47.019000+08:00","text":"我支持不管是政院版或是試院版，在立法院未來可以併案審查。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:47.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:42:57.547000+08:00","text":"我也支持公聽會，尤其地方民選首長要排除，我們可以擴大跟學者專家、中央、地方政府的對話討論。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:42:57.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:43:05.471000+08:00","text":"最後一個，要配套，如果有一個專法，現行的其他法規要不要一併檢討，我認為也需要，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2025-08-28T10:43:05.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-08-28T10:43:15.956000+08:00","text":"所以在這裡提醒，要有院版、要有公聽會、要有制度的配套，會讓未來政務人員專法的催生更嚴謹、更周延，好，我們一起努力，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T10:43:16.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T10:43:18.170286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝吳委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-08-28T10:43:18.470286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-08-28T10:43:21.613143+08:00","text":"下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":489,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請劉秘書長、銓敘部懷次長，還有人事行政總處副人事長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家辛苦了。在司法及法制委員會我非常開心剛剛聽到吳宗憲召委引用了自由法典的創造者──孟德斯鳩過去的一些主張，這是我大學跟研究所的時候一直在研讀的文章。我剛剛還特別回去再看了一下。召委說歡迎打臉他，我不敢啦！但是我們來交換一下觀點跟分享一下、彼此挑戰一下。孟德斯鳩說，自由就是做法律所允許的事的這份權利。沒有錯嘛！所以翻成白話文就是說，在無法無天的社會裡面沒有人是自由的，我怎麼解讀孟德斯鳩的這些論述呢？我先從一個部分，我建議主席可以把《論法的精神》第11章好好再熟讀一下，所謂的「自由就是做法律所許可的事情的權利」裡頭所說的自由是政治上的自由，也就是公民在政治上享有的權利，也就是自由人是什麼。很多學者在討論《論法的精神》第11章時，其實都會去對應於中國專制社會。也就是法律賦予人民自由，他就必須在法律所允許的範圍裡面去享有他可以享有的權利。在專制的國家社會，例如在中國，即便法律跟他講，他會有一些集會、結社、出版、言論等自由，說得很好聽，實質上卻用外力，也就是政治力，來干預這些人民的自由、公民的自由。學界在講《論法的精神》第11章時，都是在反芻、反思中國的現況。而在自由的臺灣社會，我也非常遺憾，立法院會用修正選罷法的方式拿掉人民連署的權利，給予更難的難度，甚至在野黨委員要修法，連罷免的門檻也要提高，還好這個法律沒有修。我用孟德斯鳩的自由論來看，任何人都不能用外力去影響、干預公民的自由，很可惜在臺灣有些立法委員如此。","如果要講孟德斯鳩的自由法典裡頭，另外一個部分我們要說的是，孟德斯鳩一直在強調要用權力來制約權力，因為自古至今，擁有權力的人都可能濫用權力，所以制約權力就是捍衛自由的第一要務。而在臺灣如何check and balance？就是回到憲法的規定──權力分立的原則，沒有誰比較大，權力分立，立法權不能凌駕行政權，行政權也不能夠干涉立法權；同樣地，立法權不能干預考試院、不能干預監察院等等，所以權力的check and balance、互相的制約，請回到憲法的精神，但是在立法院，往往因為政治立場的不同，而用修法來凌駕憲法。","剛剛召委一直在講憲法法庭、憲法法庭，什麼時候在野黨的委員這麼尊重憲法法庭了？是在野黨的委員惡修了憲訴法，癱瘓了憲法法庭，如果要遵從憲法法庭的裁判，那請讓憲法法庭能夠恢復正常的運作，不要惡修憲訴法，也不要來影響、延宕司法院的人事同意權，干預所謂用權力制約權力，也就是孟德斯鳩一直在講的這個原則。我做這個分享，也跟今天的主題相關。","剛剛主席有問到，我也要關心一下考試院。反年改復辟、在野黨箭在弦上，那會增加政府的財政負擔，也會讓年金提早破產，更是踐踏了世代正義，也違反憲法的權力分立原則。我知道考試院的立場，我們的立場一致，我只是要提醒，我們要嚴正以待，因為在野黨已經箭在弦上了。懷次長，關於這個部分，你們有做好什麼樣的因應、準備嗎？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，我們大概會根據目前所知道的可能調整內容，做一些財務上的精算，以及這樣的調整大概會增加政府多少負擔，跟整個基金所要面臨的這些問題，因為這些都是比較具體的數據，需要一些時間來調整。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我希望你們做得比過去更多，因為警察人員人事條例就是被惡修通過了，除了要表達政府的意見、提供正確的訊息，並提供整個年金的試算外，還要讓所有公務人員的年金不只看得到，更要領得到，這是保障現役以及未來青年世代的公務同仁。你們除了要闡述正確的訊息外，更要強化遊說在野黨的立委，也要擴大對社會的對話。我們過去往往只看到行政部門做出一個「我的立場」就結束，當我們知道立法院的委員已經箭在弦上，甚至要強推的時候，也不要放棄跟在野黨的委員對話，以及不要放棄對社會訴求。我相信社會，會支持考試院的立場，尤其是青安世代。絕對反對年金「倒退嚕」，這是我的提醒。同樣的，軍人加薪，我就不說了。","再來，剛剛主席一直在講憲法法庭，為什麼行政院沒有編警察人員人事條例跟軍人加薪被片面修法增加的預算？大法官已經釋憲過了，已經釋憲過了！就在35年前，35年前的總統是國民黨的李登輝，行政院長是國民黨的李煥，立法院長是國民黨的劉闊才，司法院長是國民黨的林洋港，換言之，當時的大法官的組成也都是國民黨提名、國民黨通過。但是那個時候國民黨的立法委員在立法院審預算的時候做成一個決議，要增加公務人員半個月的年終工作獎金，所以國民黨的行政院提請了釋憲，而國民黨的司法院做出來是違憲的裁示。因為不能違反憲法第七十條增加政府預算、膨脹政府預算，所以用這一個釋字第264號在35年前就已經清楚被大法官打臉。這一次行政院的警察人員人事條例也好或是國軍加薪被立法院加碼的部分，當然已經有釋字第264號的解釋跟支撐。我在這裡說明，以權力來制約權力，請服從跟尊重憲法法庭35年前就已經做出的宣判，35年前的國民黨違憲，35年後的國民黨還要違憲嗎？","今天在講政務人員是不是要有個專法？我認為立得好比立得快更重要，但是當我們看待行政中立要來擴大管制政務人員的時候，我又不得不想到在野黨委員要提案想修正立法院組織法，讓立法院長可以兼任黨職、黨魁，這就是破壞了立法院組織法2016年修法的議事中立。連議事中立都要破壞，現在卻要來擴大管控政務人員的行政中立，有沒有嚴以律人、寬以待己呢？但是吳思瑤同樣支持議事要中立，行政也要中立。","過去立法院修的法就是要捍衛議事中立，我也呼籲在野黨的委員，不要現在要立法來約束政務人員的時候，卻為了自己的國會議長開了另外一個後門來戕害議事中立，我希望這個法案不會提出。但是跟今天相關的，我的觀點、立法的爭點，從過去到現在，我印象中考試院送出幾次，但是好像在立法院從來沒有在委員會討論過，對不對？秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：可能有的有委員會的討論，但是不一定有出委員會……"],["吳委員思瑤：它只有一讀，其實沒有送到委員會討論。"],["劉秘書長建忻：最後都不續審。"],["吳委員思瑤：或者是送出法案，但立法院沒有討論，為什麼？為什麼？"],["劉秘書長建忻：也有，這個是非常多年前的事。"],["吳委員思瑤：就是沒有共識，即我說的這4個爭點：第一，有沒有需要在現行已有法制規範之下另立專法；第二，主管機關要行政院還是考試院，這是老問題；第三，適用對象要擴大納入哪些人成為政務人員的適用對象，以及規範的行為到底要規範到哪裡？這四個爭點讓過去到現在這麼多年來沒有辦法進展，我認為我們可以在這一屆立法院好好來討論。我支持行政中立，我支持政務人員的行為有一個專法可以討論。一個一個來講，現行的政務人員的行為散列在各個法規，包括行政中立法、公務員服務法、公務員懲戒法，連刑法第一百二十一條都有收賄的罪，所以說它規範了很多政務人員不得、不得、不得的這些規範，已在各個法規都有了，有沒有需要專法呢？國際上有沒有？部長、次長，國際上有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，我們理解主要國家應該是沒有一個專門的法律，他們都是跟我們現在狀況比較像，散在不同法律上面。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以主要的民主進步國家，包括美國、加拿大、英、德、日等等都沒有專法，因為都用其他的法的體系在落實，臺灣需不需要，可以討論，但是要立得好而而不是立得快。另外一個爭點，適用的對象，我就講重點，排除了民選首長合理嗎？來，次長。"],["懷次長敍：這個當然要一起考慮，因為民選地方行政首長的權限事實上也並不亞於其他部會的政務首長，這個可以一起討論。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以可以邀請地方政府一起來討論嘛！對不對？擴大討論嘛！所以適用的對象有疑義，不要掛一漏萬或者是規範了很多卻漏了關鍵的一部分。最後再來，好，主管機關，請問你們，今天召委已經排了，未來在討論的過程，你們「喬」好了沒？行政院還是考試院？"],["劉秘書長建忻：其實跟委員報告，大概從第12屆以來，就是前面3屆以來，大概在這個部分跟行政院之間都有一些不一樣的觀點，不過就這一次，一方面尊重立法院的討論，一方面我們也尊重行政院的意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：都尊重，那行政院呢？你們要接嗎？"],["張副人事長秋元：我們過去已經有表達過。不過剛剛召委提的疑慮的問題，我們也跟召委報告，如果大家同意由行政院來提出，行政院還是會銜考試院，因為這個……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以你們願意主提，成為主管機關？"],["張副人事長秋元：我們願意主提，然後我們會建議要會銜考試院，因為……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝你的答案。"],["張副人事長秋元：因為還有中央還有其他院外……"],["吳委員思瑤：因為我也認為讓考試院來進行相對政治性的政務人員管理是有問題的，如果行政院願意接這個球來研議一個專法，我支持，好嗎？期待未來研議的過程，行政院扮演多一點角色。好，這就是我的結論，政務人員立專法，Yes，可以討論，但是草率倉促的立法，No，我們就要思量。我支持不管是政院版或是試院版，在立法院未來可以併案審查。我也支持公聽會，尤其地方民選首長要排除，我們可以擴大跟學者專家、中央、地方政府的對話討論。最後一個，要配套，如果有一個專法，現行的其他法規要不要一併檢討，我認為也需要，好嗎？所以在這裡提醒，要有院版、要有公聽會、要有制度的配套，會讓未來政務人員專法的催生更嚴謹、更周延，好，我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。","下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":450,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","羅智強","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","范雲"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2025-08-28"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續併案審查(一)考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員\n邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公\n務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二\n條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條\n條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「政務人員行為基準法草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}