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感謝主席跟你對著用台語說很好那我們請中選會主委李主委請主委委員好"},{"start":16.499,"end":42.618,"text":"主委好 那我想我們是今天是這個會期第一次這個進行質詢巡打那其實前陣子對中選會來講真的是非常辛苦剛剛聽您的報告洋洋灑灑十幾點真的是沒有看過這麼忙的中選會因為不只是選務那還有這個公投的部分其實也非常的多那在這裡先跟所有中選會還有全國的選務人員先說一聲辛苦了"},{"start":43.438,"end":56.264,"text":"謝謝委員鼓勵不過我想是這樣子啦 既然台灣是民主的社會選舉選務都是我們日常會發生的狀況那我們就是藉著這樣一次次的選務來進行精進跟討論首先我想要請問的是齁這個 主委你有看過這張嗎你知道這張是什麼"},{"start":64.348,"end":83.714,"text":"這張啊這張叫做全國性公民投票案第21案公民投票公報這張你一定有看過這是21案那他的上一張是什麼上一張是17、18、19、20案的那一張四個案一起的那個公投對"},{"start":86.575,"end":93.838,"text":"來 主委我的問題是你知道這一張21案自己成為一張的這張公報跟17 18 19 20四案一張的那個公報有什麼不一樣的地方嗎後面如果有人可以代打的話我也蠻樂見答案的不一樣的地方一定是很多那最基本的就是字數也不一樣件數也不一樣這個當然沒有問題啦但是如果自己考這個就實在是太難了"},{"start":114.261,"end":118.29,"text":"這兩個公報中選會有沒有任何人知道最主要的"},{"start":120.222,"end":144.901,"text":"我們這兩個公報都是參著社研院給我們的這個設計的概念是用一樣的方式來編排都沒有任何不合法不合理的地方但它真的有一個非常非常大的不同就是本次的這個第21案的公民投票公報上面它其實沒有政府機關針對公民投票案提出的意見書"},{"start":146.377,"end":162.861,"text":"他其實沒有所以這整份公報上面就只有主文然後理由書也就是提出方的理由書然後下面就是應注意事項主委你知道這一次的這個公民投票21案提出方是誰立法院嘛 對那17 18 19 20是誰"},{"start":169.04,"end":188.517,"text":"是民眾這樣提出方的不一樣導致了他其實適用法規的不同所以其實在這裡公民投票法第15條那其實可以看得很清楚如果是這個由剛剛就是說的有立法院行政院和總統在提出的這一些的公民投票案"},{"start":189.258,"end":212.816,"text":"他其實不需要適用第九條至十三條第十七條第一項至第三款第十七條第一項第三款及十九條的規定而這個所謂十七條第一項第三款是什麼呢你如果看到那個你剛剛也有螢幕嘛上面我有反紅字的這個部分就是第三項就是政府機關針對公民投票案提出的意見書他真的不一定要"},{"start":213.716,"end":240.428,"text":"所以你這張合不合法 合不合情合理可以 OK 合規的沒有問題但我們看到的東西是什麼我們看到的東西就變成只有單方面提出的意見書啊所以另外一邊的不贊成的狀況或者反對的方向或至少政府機關的理由畢竟這是一個針對重大政策的案件不管他贊成同意或者到什麼方向其實沒有耶 我們沒有看到諸位你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":243.31,"end":260.353,"text":"關於公民投票我們當然是希望民眾能夠獲得正反方的衝突的資訊以便於他們做理智的決定那在一般人民的提案裡面會有政府立場的說明但是在立法院提案的部分是明文予以排除"},{"start":269.935,"end":279.961,"text":"但是雖然在公報上沒有政府官方的意見但是在我們所辦的公投的意見發表會上"},{"start":281.809,"end":302.894,"text":"有反方的團體有政方的代表反方的團體裡面也相當成分的反映了政府部門對於公投議題的意見所以還是有一部分的管道可以讓民眾接受到雙方的訊息成儒主委你說也有一部分的管道可以了解政府的立場"},{"start":303.854,"end":321.026,"text":"好所以這是一部分但是在這一張上面每個人手上都有的這張上面其實就是沒有好那然後如果你想你如果細讀我們的公投法這樣文字下來其實他有沒有一定不可以寫上去啊所以這要寫還是不寫這個主委我覺得這個就有討論的空間啦甚至是"},{"start":323.968,"end":344.48,"text":"如果大家覺得不管哪一案哪一種都應該要有政府立場的表述那我們就可以回過頭來看看這一條法規是不是有修改的必要或可能這個我是見請嚴議啦我也沒有說今天就一定要怎麼處理啦所以這是第一條嘛好那第二條的話其實"},{"start":346.041,"end":366.548,"text":"主委我再跟您請教的是剛剛我們說其實現在公投法規定全國性公民投票的提出方式現在就有四種公民連署行政院提案立法院提案和總統交付主委您現在來看我們這一次經過的是我們台灣史上第一次由立法院提出的公民投票是"},{"start":367.768,"end":392.049,"text":"好那他有什麼不一樣你會不會發現其實我們來看我們完全就是層次拉高來看公投法當時他最重要的立法精神第一條他就是寫我們是為了要讓直接民權嗎依憲法主權在民的原則為確保國民直接民權之行使特制定本法什麼是直接民權是我們直接去投票人民直接去投票叫做直接民權嗎"},{"start":392.99,"end":418.559,"text":"那你立法院其實本來就已經是間接民權的狀況了好可是你今天讓立法院可以去推動去提出這個公民投票案的時候這個跟公民投票的精神是不是一致其實我覺得這就很值得討論啊更何況是在由立法院這個間接民權單位來提出公民投票案的時候他的提出程序我們現在事後來看其實比公"},{"start":421.822,"end":424.987,"text":"以公民去提案公民提案的"},{"start":426.421,"end":454.834,"text":"簡便度難易度其實少很多耶其實少很多耶這樣合理嗎這也是一個問號謝謝委員這個公民投票公民提案的公民投票它是範圍包括有法律案的創制覆決有這個重大政策的創制覆決但是在立法院所提的案子裡面因為它本身就是立法機關所以立法原則的創制這個法律案的這個覆決"},{"start":455.734,"end":472.483,"text":"他是不能提的 是 他才能夠就重大政策 重大政策那立法院因為他也相當代表了民意所以就民意重大政策的部分來提出公民投票的案子 榮獲有這個需要的空間"},{"start":473.615,"end":490.712,"text":"我們回去片查當年的立法理由啦其實並沒有像這個主委您現在說的這麼清楚那我覺得要或不要當然都可以各自有立場只是當我們依照我們制定的法規實際執行了一次之後其實就剛剛的不管是"},{"start":491.212,"end":514.746,"text":"我們可以提出的項目內容也就是剛剛的其實立法已經不可以提了是只有提政策的這一端還有接下來的程序提案的程序呈案的程序等等到底要到什麼程度我覺得其實這一次經過了立法院提案的這麼龐大規模的公民投票我們是可以來考慮一下這個是不是日後就公民投票案"},{"start":515.746,"end":529.638,"text":"有精進的空間這是我想在這次我們花了這麼大的力氣進行了這麼大的一場公民投票之後那成效如何這個提供中選會參考啦我也希望有看到中選會有看到就本案的檢討報告這是我們的期待啦謝謝委員指教好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:13:09.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:13:14.403000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請中選會李主委。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-08T09:13:14.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:13:15.024000+08:00","text":"請李主委。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:13:15.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:13:15.404000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:13:23.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:13:23.919000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:13:26.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:13:49.598000+08:00","text":"今天是這個會期第一次進行詢答，其實前陣子對中選會來講真的是非常辛苦，剛剛聽您的報告，洋洋灑灑十幾點，真的是沒有看過這麼忙的中選會，因為不只是選務，還有公投的部分，其實也非常的多，在這裡先跟所有中選會還有全國的選務人員說一聲辛苦了！","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:13:50.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:13:51.299000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員鼓勵。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:13:51.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:14:01.303000+08:00","text":"不過我想，既然臺灣是民主社會，選舉、選務都是我們日常會發生的狀況，我們就是藉著這樣一次次的選務來進行精進跟討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:14:01.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:14:02.984000+08:00","text":"首先，我想要請問的是，主委，你有看過這一張嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:14:02.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:14:03.264000+08:00","text":"你知道這一張是什麼嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:14:03.264000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-08T09:14:12.609000+08:00","text":"不好意思，看起來應該是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:14:12.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:14:30.714000+08:00","text":"這張叫全國性公民投票案第21案公民投票公報，這一張你一定有看過，這是21案，它的上一張是第17案、第18案、第19案、第20案的那一張，4個案一起的公投。2021年。對！","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:14:33.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:14:37.257000+08:00","text":"主委，我的問題是你知道這一張第21案自己成為一張的這張公報，跟第17案、第18案、第19案、第20案一張的公報，有什麼不一樣的地方嗎？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:14:37.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:14:38.277000+08:00","text":"後面如果有人可以代答的話，我也滿樂見答案的。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:14:38.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:14:40.038000+08:00","text":"不一樣的地方一定是很多，最基本的就是字數也不一樣、件數也不一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:14:40.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:14:40.818000+08:00","text":"這個當然沒有問題，但是如果考你這個，也實在太誇張了！","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:01.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:15:05.270000+08:00","text":"這兩個公報，中選會有沒有任何人知道最主要的部分？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"謝主任秘書美玲","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:08.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:15:15.288000+08:00","text":"這兩個公報都是參酌設研院給我們的設計概念，用一樣的方式在編排。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:15.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:15:44.220000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題，都沒有任何不合法、不合理的地方，但它真的有一個非常、非常大的不同，就是本次第21案的公民投票公報上面，它其實沒有政府機關針對公民投票案提出的意見書，所以這整份公報上面就只有主文及理由書，也就是提出方的理由書，然後下面就是應注意事項。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:44.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:15:49.741000+08:00","text":"主委，你知道這一次第21案的公民投票，提出方是誰？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:49.741000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-08T09:15:50.741000+08:00","text":"是立法院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:49.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:15:49.821000+08:00","text":"立法院嘛，對！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:49.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:15:49.861000+08:00","text":"第17、18、19、20案是誰？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:49.861000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-08T09:15:56.040000+08:00","text":"是民眾。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:56.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:15:57.741000+08:00","text":"對，是民眾。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:15:57.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:16:29.168000+08:00","text":"這樣提出方的不一樣，導致了它適用法規的不同，所以在公民投票法第十五條可以看得很清楚，如果是由剛剛說的立法院、行政院和總統提出這一些的公民投票案，其實不須要適用第九條至第十三條、第十七條第一項第三款及第十九條的規定，而第十七條第一項第三款是什麼呢？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:16:29.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:16:31.630000+08:00","text":"你剛剛也有看到螢幕嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:16:32.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:16:42.837000+08:00","text":"上面我有反紅字的部分，第三項就是「政府機關針對公民投票案提出之意見書」，它真的不一定要，所以這張合不合法、合不合情合理？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:16:43.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:16:46.439000+08:00","text":"可以，OK，合規的，沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:16:46.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:16:48.560000+08:00","text":"但我們看到的東西是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:16:48.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:17:07.428000+08:00","text":"我們看到的東西變成只有單方面提出意見書，另外一邊不贊成的狀況或者反對的方向或至少政府機關的理由，畢竟這是一個針對重大政策的案件，不管他贊成、同意或者是什麼方向，其實我們沒有看到，主委，你覺得這樣合理嗎？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:17:10.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:17:20.632000+08:00","text":"關於公民投票，我們當然是希望民眾能夠獲得正反方的充足資訊，以便於他們做理智的決定。沒錯！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:17:22.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:17:24.553000+08:00","text":"在一般人民的提案裡面會有正反方的這個……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:17:24.553000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-08T09:17:25.553000+08:00","text":"它其實也不是正反方，它其實是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:17:24.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:17:25.473000+08:00","text":"政府立場的一個說明。對！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:17:25.473000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-08T09:17:26.473000+08:00","text":"政府立場，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:17:25.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:18:05.653000+08:00","text":"但在立法院提案的部分是明文予以排除，雖然在公報上沒有政府官方的意見，但是在我們所辦的公投意見發表會上，有反方的團體、有正方的代表，反方團體裡面也相當程度地反映政府部門對於公投議題的意見，所以還是有一部分的管道可以讓民眾接受到雙方的資訊。是！","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:18:06.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:18:09.894000+08:00","text":"誠如主委說的，也有一部分的管道可以了解政府立場嘛！是。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:18:10.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:18:16.018000+08:00","text":"好，這是一部分，但是在每個人手上都有的這張公報上面其實就是沒有。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:18:18.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:18:27.286000+08:00","text":"你如果細讀公投法的文字下來，其實也沒有一定不可以寫上去，所以這要寫還是不寫？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:18:27.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:18:27.826000+08:00","text":"主委，我覺得這個就有討論的空間啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:18:27.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:18:48.298000+08:00","text":"甚至是如果大家覺得不管哪一案、哪一種都應該要有政府立場的表述，我們就可以回過頭來看看這一條法規是不是有修改的必要或可能，這個我是建請研議，我也沒有說今天就一定要怎麼處理……","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:18:48.298000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-08T09:18:49.298000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:18:49.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:18:50.119000+08:00","text":"所以這是第一條嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:18:51.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:19:04.405000+08:00","text":"第二條，主委，我再跟您請教的是，剛剛我們說現在公投法規定全國性公民投票的提出方式就有四種，即公民連署、行政院提案、立法院提案和總統交付。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:19:05.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:19:13.528000+08:00","text":"主委，您現在來看，這一次經過的是臺灣史上第一次由立法院提出的公民投票嘛！是。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:19:14.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:19:16.189000+08:00","text":"好，那它有什麼不一樣？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:19:18.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:19:33.805000+08:00","text":"我們完全就是層次拉高來看，公投法當時最重要的立法精神，第一條就是寫為了直接民權，「依據憲法主權在民之原則，為確保國民直接民權之行使，特制定本法。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:19:34.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:19:35.466000+08:00","text":"」什麼是直接民權？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:19:35.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:19:54.375000+08:00","text":"是我們直接去投票，人民直接去投票叫作直接民權；立法院本來就已經是間接民權的狀況了，可是今天讓立法院可以去推動、去提出公民投票案時，這個跟公民投票的精神是不是一致？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:19:55.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:20:15.482000+08:00","text":"我覺得這就很值得討論，更何況是在由立法院這個間接民權單位提出公民投票案的時候，我們現在事後來看它的提出程序，其實比公民提案的簡便度、難易度少很多，其實少很多欸！","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:20:18.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:20:19.484000+08:00","text":"這樣合理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:20:19.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:20:20.784000+08:00","text":"這也是一個問號。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:20:20.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:20:22.165000+08:00","text":"是的，很謝謝委員。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:20:23.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:20:37.472000+08:00","text":"公民提案的公民投票範圍包括有法律案的創制、複決，有重大政策的創制、複決，但是在立法院所提的案子裡面，因為它本身就是立法機關。是啊！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:20:37.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:20:43.574000+08:00","text":"所以立法原則的創制、法律案的複決，它是不能提的。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:20:43.574000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-08T09:20:44.574000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:20:44.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:20:45.956000+08:00","text":"它只能夠就重大政策……是啊！","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:20:47.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:20:59.483000+08:00","text":"因為立法院也代表相當的民意，對民意重大政策的部分提出公民投票的案子，容或有需要的空間。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:21:00.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:21:06.501000+08:00","text":"我們回去遍查當年的立法理由，其實並沒有像主委現在說得這麼清楚。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:21:07.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:21:30.579000+08:00","text":"我覺得要或不要，當然都可以各自有立場，只是當我們依照制定的法規實際執行了一次之後，不管是我們可以提出的項目、內容，也就是剛剛說的，其實立法已經不可以提了，只能提政策的這一端，還有接下來的提案程序、成案程序等等，到底要到什麼程度？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:21:30.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:21:44.267000+08:00","text":"我覺得這一次經過立法院提案這麼龐大規模的公民投票，我們是可以來考慮一下，是不是日後就公民投票案有精進的空間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:21:44.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:21:52.134000+08:00","text":"我想在這次花了這麼大的力氣、進行這麼大的一場公民投票之後，成效如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:21:52.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:21:56.318000+08:00","text":"這個提供中選會參考，我也希望有看到中選會就本案的檢討報告，這是我們的期待。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任委員進勇","start":"2025-10-08T09:21:56.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:21:56.598000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2025-10-08T09:21:56.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-08T09:21:56.638000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-08T09:21:57.138000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-08T09:21:59.138000+08:00","text":"謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-08T09:21:59.438000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-08T09:22:02.295143+08:00","text":"我們請張智倫委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":95,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時13分）謝謝主席，請中選會李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。今天是這個會期第一次進行詢答，其實前陣子對中選會來講真的是非常辛苦，剛剛聽您的報告，洋洋灑灑十幾點，真的是沒有看過這麼忙的中選會，因為不只是選務，還有公投的部分，其實也非常的多，在這裡先跟所有中選會還有全國的選務人員說一聲辛苦了！"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員鼓勵。"],["蘇委員巧慧：不過我想，既然臺灣是民主社會，選舉、選務都是我們日常會發生的狀況，我們就是藉著這樣一次次的選務來進行精進跟討論。首先，我想要請問的是，主委，你有看過這一張嗎？你知道這一張是什麼嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：不好意思，看起來應該是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這張叫全國性公民投票案第21案公民投票公報，這一張你一定有看過，這是21案，它的上一張是第17案、第18案、第19案、第20案的那一張，4個案一起的公投。"],["李主任委員進勇：2021年。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對！主委，我的問題是你知道這一張第21案自己成為一張的這張公報，跟第17案、第18案、第19案、第20案一張的公報，有什麼不一樣的地方嗎？後面如果有人可以代答的話，我也滿樂見答案的。"],["李主任委員進勇：不一樣的地方一定是很多，最基本的就是字數也不一樣、件數也不一樣。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個當然沒有問題，但是如果考你這個，也實在太誇張了！這兩個公報，中選會有沒有任何人知道最主要的部分？"],["謝主任秘書美玲：這兩個公報都是參酌設研院給我們的設計概念，用一樣的方式在編排。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，沒有問題，都沒有任何不合法、不合理的地方，但它真的有一個非常、非常大的不同，就是本次第21案的公民投票公報上面，它其實沒有政府機關針對公民投票案提出的意見書，所以這整份公報上面就只有主文及理由書，也就是提出方的理由書，然後下面就是應注意事項。主委，你知道這一次第21案的公民投票，提出方是誰？"],["李主任委員進勇：是立法院。"],["蘇委員巧慧：立法院嘛，對！第17、18、19、20案是誰？"],["李主任委員進勇：是民眾。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，是民眾。這樣提出方的不一樣，導致了它適用法規的不同，所以在公民投票法第十五條可以看得很清楚，如果是由剛剛說的立法院、行政院和總統提出這一些的公民投票案，其實不須要適用第九條至第十三條、第十七條第一項第三款及第十九條的規定，而第十七條第一項第三款是什麼呢？你剛剛也有看到螢幕嘛！上面我有反紅字的部分，第三項就是「政府機關針對公民投票案提出之意見書」，它真的不一定要，所以這張合不合法、合不合情合理？可以，OK，合規的，沒有問題。但我們看到的東西是什麼？我們看到的東西變成只有單方面提出意見書，另外一邊不贊成的狀況或者反對的方向或至少政府機關的理由，畢竟這是一個針對重大政策的案件，不管他贊成、同意或者是什麼方向，其實我們沒有看到，主委，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：關於公民投票，我們當然是希望民眾能夠獲得正反方的充足資訊，以便於他們做理智的決定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯！"],["李主任委員進勇：在一般人民的提案裡面會有正反方的這個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：它其實也不是正反方，它其實是……"],["李主任委員進勇：政府立場的一個說明。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對！政府立場，沒錯。"],["李主任委員進勇：但在立法院提案的部分是明文予以排除，雖然在公報上沒有政府官方的意見，但是在我們所辦的公投意見發表會上，有反方的團體、有正方的代表，反方團體裡面也相當程度地反映政府部門對於公投議題的意見，所以還是有一部分的管道可以讓民眾接受到雙方的資訊。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是！誠如主委說的，也有一部分的管道可以了解政府立場嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，這是一部分，但是在每個人手上都有的這張公報上面其實就是沒有。你如果細讀公投法的文字下來，其實也沒有一定不可以寫上去，所以這要寫還是不寫？主委，我覺得這個就有討論的空間啦！甚至是如果大家覺得不管哪一案、哪一種都應該要有政府立場的表述，我們就可以回過頭來看看這一條法規是不是有修改的必要或可能，這個我是建請研議，我也沒有說今天就一定要怎麼處理……"],["李主任委員進勇：是，謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這是第一條嘛！第二條，主委，我再跟您請教的是，剛剛我們說現在公投法規定全國性公民投票的提出方式就有四種，即公民連署、行政院提案、立法院提案和總統交付。主委，您現在來看，這一次經過的是臺灣史上第一次由立法院提出的公民投票嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那它有什麼不一樣？我們完全就是層次拉高來看，公投法當時最重要的立法精神，第一條就是寫為了直接民權，「依據憲法主權在民之原則，為確保國民直接民權之行使，特制定本法。」什麼是直接民權？是我們直接去投票，人民直接去投票叫作直接民權；立法院本來就已經是間接民權的狀況了，可是今天讓立法院可以去推動、去提出公民投票案時，這個跟公民投票的精神是不是一致？我覺得這就很值得討論，更何況是在由立法院這個間接民權單位提出公民投票案的時候，我們現在事後來看它的提出程序，其實比公民提案的簡便度、難易度少很多，其實少很多欸！這樣合理嗎？這也是一個問號。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的，很謝謝委員。公民提案的公民投票範圍包括有法律案的創制、複決，有重大政策的創制、複決，但是在立法院所提的案子裡面，因為它本身就是立法機關。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：所以立法原則的創制、法律案的複決，它是不能提的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，沒有錯。"],["李主任委員進勇：它只能夠就重大政策……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：因為立法院也代表相當的民意，對民意重大政策的部分提出公民投票的案子，容或有需要的空間。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們回去遍查當年的立法理由，其實並沒有像主委現在說得這麼清楚。我覺得要或不要，當然都可以各自有立場，只是當我們依照制定的法規實際執行了一次之後，不管是我們可以提出的項目、內容，也就是剛剛說的，其實立法已經不可以提了，只能提政策的這一端，還有接下來的提案程序、成案程序等等，到底要到什麼程度？我覺得這一次經過立法院提案這麼龐大規模的公民投票，我們是可以來考慮一下，是不是日後就公民投票案有精進的空間？我想在這次花了這麼大的力氣、進行這麼大的一場公民投票之後，成效如何？這個提供中選會參考，我也希望有看到中選會就本案的檢討報告，這是我們的期待。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員指教。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}