{"error":false,"id":["163968"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":163968,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163968","日期":"2025-10-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-4-36-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":4,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2025-10-09T09:15:05+08:00","結束時間":"2025-10-09T09:29:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb629bfd73d47f7a6d6a119d4e8153da54efa0e4ffc4b42a1cec857e8946a4dbda255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:15:05 - 09:29:35","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":3.57471875,"end":5.177843750000001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":11.30346875,"end":11.759093750000002,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":11.927843750000001,"end":47.939093750000005,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":37.00409375,"end":37.088468750000004,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":48.10784375,"end":49.25534375,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":49.37346875,"end":51.938468750000006,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":51.60096875,"end":54.368468750000005,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":54.60471875,"end":61.59096875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":61.79346875,"end":62.384093750000005,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":62.73846875,"end":65.23596875,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":65.65784375,"end":66.97409375000001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":66.97409375000001,"end":67.85159375,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":67.78409375000001,"end":68.35784375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":68.84721875000001,"end":72.23909375000001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":72.30659375,"end":75.12471875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":75.66471875,"end":79.73159375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":77.60534375,"end":77.65596875,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":77.74034375000001,"end":77.82471875,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":80.20409375,"end":83.76471875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":83.81534375000001,"end":97.95659375000001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":98.44596875,"end":100.67346875000001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":101.23034375,"end":102.44534375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":104.53784375000001,"end":108.73971875000001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":109.34721875000001,"end":111.54096875,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":111.65909375000001,"end":119.53971875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":116.56971875,"end":116.89034375000001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":119.94471875,"end":120.90659375000001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":121.78409375000001,"end":124.70346875000001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":125.56409375000001,"end":128.73659375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":129.17534375,"end":136.48221875000002,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":136.60034375,"end":138.77721875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":139.72221875,"end":144.32909375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":144.54846875,"end":148.61534375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":149.23971875,"end":151.83846875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":151.95659375,"end":159.22971875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":159.80346875,"end":161.54159375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":161.06909375,"end":164.22471875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":164.27534375000002,"end":165.32159375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":165.86159375,"end":170.99159375000002,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":171.37971875000002,"end":173.94471875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":174.78846875000002,"end":177.50534375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":177.67409375,"end":180.10409375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":180.37409375000001,"end":188.13659375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":189.08159375000002,"end":190.29659375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":190.93784375,"end":195.73034375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":195.73034375,"end":195.96659375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":195.96659375000002,"end":197.94096875000002,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":197.82284375,"end":198.39659375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":198.64971875,"end":206.81721875000002,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":207.07034375,"end":210.73221875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":209.90534375000001,"end":210.83346875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":210.74909375000001,"end":212.38596875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":212.06534375,"end":224.01284375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":225.16034375,"end":225.17721875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":225.17721875,"end":225.22784375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":225.22784375,"end":227.03346875000003,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":227.30346875,"end":234.66096875000002,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":235.01534375000003,"end":238.71096875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":235.03221875000003,"end":236.07846875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":238.93034375000002,"end":242.82846875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":243.30096875,"end":243.55409375000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":244.02659375000002,"end":244.46534375000002,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":244.83659375000002,"end":246.50721875000002,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":247.51971875,"end":249.13971875000001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":248.80221875,"end":255.68721875000003,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":254.97846875000002,"end":274.38471875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":256.27784375,"end":256.34534375000004,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":274.23284375000003,"end":275.56596875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":275.11034375,"end":297.40221875000003,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":276.59534375000004,"end":277.01721875000004,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":297.57096875,"end":310.75034375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":310.75034375,"end":311.17221875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":311.17221875,"end":311.18909375000004,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":311.30721875,"end":312.65721875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":312.97784375000003,"end":319.08659375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":318.25971875000005,"end":327.77721875000003,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":322.14096875,"end":322.51221875000005,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":326.47784375000003,"end":326.91659375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":328.26659375,"end":330.86534375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":330.51096875,"end":346.03596875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":331.94534375,"end":333.63284375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":340.12971875,"end":340.18034375,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":346.74471875,"end":370.33596875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":370.84221875000003,"end":371.68596875000003,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":372.49596875000003,"end":373.33971875000003,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":373.82909375,"end":390.41721875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":391.61534375,"end":396.81284375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":396.72846875000005,"end":400.96409375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":398.61846875000003,"end":399.44534375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":401.89221875000004,"end":402.75284375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":403.88346875,"end":405.60471875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":407.29221875,"end":428.01471875000004,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":428.94284375,"end":433.41471875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":433.46534375000005,"end":468.04221875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":468.76784375000005,"end":473.91471875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":474.53909375,"end":474.79221875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":474.79221875,"end":478.74096875000004,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":479.31471875000005,"end":480.14159375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":480.69846875,"end":487.46534375000005,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":488.71409375,"end":489.18659375000004,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":489.25409375000004,"end":503.36159375000005,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":500.39159375,"end":500.54346875000005,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":502.55159375000005,"end":503.19284375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":503.83409375,"end":505.52159375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":505.92659375000005,"end":508.60971875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":507.54659375000006,"end":511.05659375000005,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":509.18346875000003,"end":509.31846875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":510.92159375000006,"end":511.22534375000004,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":511.22534375000004,"end":523.37534375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":524.25284375,"end":526.07534375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":526.07534375,"end":526.3115937499999,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":526.3115937499999,"end":534.4453437500001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":528.15096875,"end":528.5222187500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":532.25159375,"end":532.94346875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":534.10784375,"end":536.03159375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":536.89221875,"end":537.90471875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":537.46596875,"end":538.3603437500001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":537.9553437500001,"end":541.3472187500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":540.7734687500001,"end":545.7009687500001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":544.5872187500001,"end":559.57221875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":546.1059687500001,"end":546.3928437500001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":559.53846875,"end":560.1965937500001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":560.1965937500001,"end":584.0578437500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":584.0578437500001,"end":591.7022187499999,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":585.3403437500001,"end":585.55971875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":587.1628437500001,"end":587.9053437499999,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":591.7865937500001,"end":593.2378437500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":594.7903437500001,"end":595.80284375,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":596.1909687500001,"end":596.5959687500001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":597.35534375,"end":598.24971875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":598.8403437500001,"end":604.83096875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":600.4265937499999,"end":600.5615937499999,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":601.2703437499999,"end":601.9115937500001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":604.96596875,"end":616.32284375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":616.8628437500001,"end":620.30534375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":620.7947187500001,"end":632.92784375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":633.77159375,"end":635.34096875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":635.34096875,"end":638.7834687500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":638.7834687500001,"end":642.5634687500001,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":640.23471875,"end":649.11096875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":642.9853437500001,"end":643.74471875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":643.76159375,"end":644.58846875,"speaker_score":0.946},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":650.0559687500001,"end":655.86096875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":656.3503437500001,"end":659.7422187500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":660.2990937500001,"end":663.74159375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":664.28159375,"end":667.53846875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":668.1628437500001,"end":672.07784375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":672.5334687500001,"end":677.69721875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":678.11909375,"end":679.60409375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":680.61659375,"end":695.0109687500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":695.3147187500001,"end":697.89659375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":698.5547187500001,"end":704.93346875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":705.67596875,"end":708.47721875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":709.45596875,"end":723.6984687500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":724.74471875,"end":725.4365937500002,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":725.7065937500001,"end":726.16221875,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":726.33096875,"end":743.07096875,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":743.3915937500001,"end":744.1172187500001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":744.43784375,"end":747.99846875,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":748.1840937500001,"end":753.1115937500001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":751.8797187499999,"end":753.43221875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":753.33096875,"end":753.3815937500001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":753.3984687500001,"end":753.5334687500001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":753.5334687500001,"end":756.7397187500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":757.0603437500001,"end":759.1865937500002,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":759.22034375,"end":764.3334687500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":765.0928437500002,"end":775.85909375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":775.82534375,"end":779.1159687500001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":776.55096875,"end":778.0190937500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":778.39034375,"end":785.08971875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":783.1997187500001,"end":783.6215937500001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":785.08971875,"end":785.93346875,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":785.6128437500001,"end":834.85409375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":786.25409375,"end":787.19909375,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":834.85409375,"end":835.98471875,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":835.61346875,"end":836.87909375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":838.6172187500001,"end":840.91221875,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":840.91221875,"end":841.1315937500001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":841.33409375,"end":842.07659375,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":841.5703437500001,"end":844.84409375,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":843.91596875,"end":847.4765937500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":847.40909375,"end":847.4428437500001,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":847.4765937500001,"end":847.84784375,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":848.26971875,"end":852.5222187500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":852.8259687500001,"end":856.8928437500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"黃委員國昌","start":857.28096875,"end":868.8403437500001,"speaker_score":0.92},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":867.64221875,"end":867.65909375,"speaker_score":0.916},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"劉秘書長建忻","start":867.67596875,"end":867.9965937500001,"speaker_score":0.916}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.012,"end":29.741,"text":"來 謝謝主席 麻煩有請秘書長委員長秘書長早警察流言人士條例在今年4月25號總統已經公佈生效了這是一個三讀通過總統公佈有效的法律之前我曾經在兩次質詢的時間當中請教權敘部的官員他明確的表示"},{"start":30.861,"end":53.96,"text":"說考試院會依法行政那目前正在有關於進行電腦系統重新的準備需要一些時間那所以今年12月底以前針對已經退休要重新計算的退休金會重新核定這樣子的立場跟時程有沒有改變這個沒有改變沒有改變現在持續在進行當中這個行政上的工作我們都在準備"},{"start":55.216,"end":78.806,"text":"所以12月以前會把已經退休的人他們重新核定計算退休金的核定還在激發是嗎計畫上是這樣那個部長這邊應該也沒有問題這個時程沒有改變嗎沒有改變下一個問題我們之前在討論的都是之前已經退休的因為法律有變更退休的所得替代率變更所以要重新計算"},{"start":80.305,"end":108.402,"text":"那不過這個法律在4月25號就已經生效了我在4月25號以後申請退休 譬如今年夏天今年夏天7月或8月的時候我申請退休那這個時候選區部針對法律生效了以後他所核發的審定函是依照新法還是舊法應該是依照新法 依照新法確定依照新法嗎確定依照新法嗎你們核定函是按照新法計法所得替代率嗎"},{"start":109.36,"end":138.351,"text":"我是不是請市部長來做可以可以請因為我現在吼我必須講個比較直接的啦我在準備這個題目的時候我有請教我們立法院最近這兩個月退休的警察同仁那因為平常跟他們有互動所以我就關心這個事但是他們跟我反映的事情是說法律生效了以後退休的人他收到了審定函還是按照舊法不是按照新法所以我才要特別把這件事情提出來"},{"start":139.775,"end":164.983,"text":"但是你們說是用新法 那是他的審定函計算錯誤嗎 還是怎麼樣那我跟委員報告 我們對於新退休的同仁本來就是兩個法律根據原來的退服法 我們核多少然後根據調整的警察人士條例 會核多少所以其實那個審定函裡面會把兩個事情同時說明清楚兩個審定函同時說明清楚一個審定函裡面會交代這兩件事情OK 好 那"},{"start":165.936,"end":186.973,"text":"他從審定含生效了以後所領到的退休金是按照新法還是舊法計算應該是講說如果根據退伏法應該支的就是馬上發給但是因為警察人士條例的差額這部分我們就先審定你應該拿多少但是那個差額就等那個核定完以後他會補差額"},{"start":189.33,"end":206.631,"text":"對不起我聽不懂你發給一個人他退休的時候退休金領多少錢的審定函對他基本上是一個行政處分對沒錯那個行政處分他本身所發生的效率範圍到底是按照新法計算退休金還是按照舊法計算退休金"},{"start":207.096,"end":233.539,"text":"我跟委員報告就是那個審定法從此說明兩件事是我知道就法你多少你說明欄怎麼講都OK 剛剛你已經說明過了我說那個行政處分對外部的法律世界發生法律效力的退休金是按照新法計算還是就法計算我就說他兩個都包括那如果兩個都包括包括依照新法計算的也對外發生法律效力了嗎這樣說沒有錯嗎"},{"start":235.12,"end":246.173,"text":"那雖然對外發生法律效力但是他現在針對新法所通過的那個退休金他現在領不到是嗎對為什麼因為那個還沒有計算出來"},{"start":247.6,"end":264.746,"text":"新法的還沒有計算出來因為新法有那所替代80%所以我們在那審定函裡面有特別特別交代一個程序我們只是程序交代這樣好了啦 就是說你們在發那個審定函的時候不要涉及到任何人的個資譬如說那警察叫什麼名字身分證字號幾號"},{"start":267.087,"end":286.578,"text":"他年紀這個全部都不用你所講的兩個部分的那個審定函你會後可不可以提供給我因為我現在覺得很困惑啦因為警察同仁跟我反應說不是三讀通過了嗎三讀通過不是按照新法嗎那為什麼我們收到的還是按照舊法在計算的退休金"},{"start":287.638,"end":312.036,"text":"這個是他們現在他們在主張的全部都是合法的權益啊是立法院三讀通過的法律啊當然現在行政院院長卓榮泰他可能自己以為他是大法官他有他的法律見解 不關你們考試院的事但我要求的只有考試院是不是有依法行政只有這件事情而已你確定給他們的函上面有依照刑法計算的然後等你們"},{"start":313.197,"end":327.144,"text":"公事處理完了以後電腦系統完了以後該補給他們的都會補給他們是嗎因為後面的錢並不是我們退補基金支的那個就是有就是根據法律應該是內政部那邊去支的所以要等那邊"},{"start":328.525,"end":345.659,"text":"預算編列完成他們才補到差額那個是牽涉到另外一個層次的事情啦因為這些公務員對於國家的公法上金錢債權不會因為國家有沒有編列預算而有所差別啦這個是行政法的ABC啦我想不用特別解釋應該都清楚啦只是到時候"},{"start":346.969,"end":371.605,"text":"該依法編列的預算沒有編列那導致國家的公法上金錢債權沒有辦法滿足的話而引發進一步後續的行政訴訟甚至大規模的集體訴訟在取得勝訴確定判決了以後對於屬於中華民國的財產來進行公法上面的強制執行走到那一步 我必須要說啦就很難看了"},{"start":372.557,"end":400.661,"text":"就很難看了那個是政府的失職啦那當然我希望行政院可以迷途知返這件事不要再發生然後第二件事情是公務人員行政中立法的適用有疑義由誰來加以解釋我講的不是具體個案的事實認定喔是法律適用如果不是通案性的一個解釋是由主管機關 我們權序部會做解釋由主管機關 權序部來加以解釋嗎好 來 我來請教一下"},{"start":401.977,"end":426.634,"text":"之前啊我在這邊公開質疑啊之前擔任民進黨中常委後來接任續產會的董事長年薪將近300萬的書字分有沒有行政人員中立法的適用答案是有 我已經拿得到答案是有那當然在個案的追究上我就覺得很奇怪中央續產會很閒嗎"},{"start":429.148,"end":453.518,"text":"領一年將近三百萬結果跑去搞大罷免上班都不用上班真的很閒嗎牽涉到具體個案認定的部分人事長率先表態這件事情不應該不應該這樣做不應該發生但是取決於他有請假沒有請假所以這個就會牽涉到主管機關也就是具體個案事實認定農業部回函給我"},{"start":454.638,"end":478.44,"text":"說7月18號到7月25號蘇志芬董事長已經請假那因為請假了請假他要去做什麼樣的事情那個就是他政治參與活動的自由沒有違法對於農業部所表達這樣子一個法規上面的立場是不是也是玄敘部的立場就是公務人員他只要有請假譬如說今天星期四"},{"start":479.366,"end":503.112,"text":"我請假我沒有領國家的薪水那我要去參與大罷免的活動這個是公務人員他們的政治自由是嗎我跟委員報告根據中立法因為他是屬於准用的對象那准用的對象裡面有些是屬於呢你任何時間都不應該做的有些是你可以請假做的而且什麼活動你可以做什麼活動你不可以做這我知道"},{"start":503.852,"end":522.875,"text":"我們通案檢視這樣 那至於這個個案本身到底是什麼狀況我現在沒有要跟你講個案了現在我在講的原則就是公務人員我只要有請假就可以去參加相關的選舉罷免活動基本的法律原則是不是這樣還是只有對書字分是這樣"},{"start":524.301,"end":535.72,"text":"如果他是屬於請假但是他去參加罷免活動也不能夠使用到譬如說運用到公共資源什麼之類的在法律裡面有這樣一個規定對所有的公務人員都一樣嘛"},{"start":537.094,"end":559.189,"text":"對吧 所有公務人員一體適用沒有 這個原則很重要啊就是看來是有一些基本那個不同的法條會框進來啦是啦 我了解啦但是我現在在講的是說其實我只要你講一個立場啦這個事情不是蘇志飛有特權啦是所有的公務人員你要請假的時候只要不要違反公務人員行政中立法的規定這本來就是你的政治參與自由嘛沒有錯"},{"start":560.25,"end":582.79,"text":"那你大大方方說是就好了讓所有的公務人員心裡都有數嘛大家以後休假的時候都有政治參與的自由嘛不用擔心被扣上一個違反公務人員行政中立法的帽子嘛或者是不用擔心我只能夠去幫執政黨不能去幫在野黨幫執政黨沒事幫在野黨可能會出事不要出現這樣的狀況就好了嘛"},{"start":584.171,"end":597.599,"text":"我們中立法就是說 請假是你的一個權益 但是你在參與政治活動也不能違反中立法裡面相關的規定那如果沒有請假呢沒有請假那就就是 就會有問題"},{"start":598.888,"end":620.019,"text":"沒有請假就會有問題嘛沒有關係這個不牽涉到權序部的職權啊我到時候再請農業部繼續追啊農業部說他7月18號到25號是請假但我現在看啊他公開在上班的時間這上班的時間呢7月10號 7月11號全部都是上班日啊"},{"start":620.879,"end":648.46,"text":"在臉書上面公開發文啊倡議大惡霸在上班的時間上面在臉書上面公開發文倡議大惡霸這有沒有違反公務人員行政中立法如果是上班的時間如果是上班 這個確定是上班的時間對 他沒有請假因為個案我不清楚沒有關係 你只要表達這個原則就好了啦具體的個案 接下來農業部要去做處理時間的關係啊 最後一個問題"},{"start":650.14,"end":679.264,"text":"之前我一直很關心考機的制度因為考機的制度攸關於全中華民國的公務員我們希望一個考機的制度去獎勵認真負責的人而不是去獎勵一個會向上管理抱大腿的人我相信這是文官中立一個非常基本的原則但問題是我們過去的考機制度非常的不合理列甲等的比例不於75%那同時官等越大甲等的比例越高"},{"start":680.68,"end":708.024,"text":"我從第一次當立法委員就在關心這個制度所以上次考試院正副院長以及考試委員提名的時候我說這個考機制度要不要改每一個從院長副院長到考試委員全部都提出強烈的批判全部都提出強烈的批判要改革但我覺得有點納悶的事情是考試院業務概況報告及立法計畫今天提出來的這個針對考機制度的改革一個字都沒有寫"},{"start":709.5,"end":736.053,"text":"那所以當初的考試院正副院長跟考試委員是在立法院欺騙大家說考機制度不合理我們要改革結果行使同意權當上了考試院正副院長跟考試委員了以後就沒把他當一回事嗎是這樣嗎跟委員說明周院長有指示考機的這個部分考機法修正的部分也是在立法院行使同意權大家的一個共同的看法跟承諾所以這個事情必須要推動"},{"start":736.733,"end":762.9,"text":"那沒有寫在報告裡面主要是因為現在大概還在內部的討論階段但是跟委員說明現在的狀況就是我們內部有做一個意見交換那現在選舉部這邊也形成了一個草案那我們內部討論之後呢就會跟各機關來交換意見這樣好不好 因為我聽秘書長這樣子講我可以理解啦但是我還是有一些困惑啦把它當成是一個重要的事情要做就應該寫在書面報告裡"},{"start":765.171,"end":779.001,"text":"否則的話立法院怎麼知道考試院認為這件事情很重要我們有在做這些事情只存在你們的內心啊國會不知道公務人員不知道人民也不知道沒有關係上一次我請教這個問題的時候你說你會忠實轉達我的意見這個意見有忠實轉達嗎有嘛"},{"start":787.947,"end":810.797,"text":"因為今天的書面報告針對這個部分顯然考試院的正副院長跟考試委員是有打算要履行他們在立法院所做的承諾只不過在書面報告裡面沒有清楚的表達到底要怎麼樣來加以履行針對這個部分是不是可以請主席裁示請考試院會後提交一個補充的報告來"},{"start":811.877,"end":836.622,"text":"他們打算怎麼做 現在進度到哪裡因為我現在沒有要你攤牌嘛沒有要你攤牌說你到底考機制度要怎麼改嘛但最起碼過去的這段時間當中幾月幾號召開了什麼會議進行了什麼準備到目前為止的工作進度如何打算什麼時候要把東西提出來這一些事情應該要讓國會知道吧這個要求不會太過分吧可以 我們可以提供可以 需要多久"},{"start":838.703,"end":861.165,"text":"放完假以後交來好嗎 下個禮拜下禮拜是 因為我在你們的書面報告裡面我一個字都沒看到我是不願意講這是一個不及格的報告這樣的話可能有點太重了畢竟你們各個部會裡面寫的東西以次數來講跟行政院其他部會比起來相對而言是比較充實啦"},{"start":862.082,"end":868.192,"text":"但是重要的事情該寫的還是要寫所以下禮拜把你們的補充報告再補交來好嗎可以好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:15:09.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:15:09.812000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:15:09.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:15:17.335000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:15:17.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:15:17.575000+08:00","text":"秘書長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:15:18.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:15:53.615000+08:00","text":"警察人員人事條例在今年4月25號總統已經公布生效了，這是一個三讀通過、總統公布的有效法律，之前我曾經在兩次質詢的時間中請教銓敘部的官員，他明確的表示考試院會依法行政，目前正在進行電腦系統重新的整備，需要一些時間，所以今年12月底以前，針對已經退休要重新計算的退休金會重新核定，這樣子的立場跟時程有沒有改變？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:15:53.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:15:54.456000+08:00","text":"這個沒有改變。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:15:55.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:15:56.738000+08:00","text":"現在持續在進行當中？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:15:57.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:15:58.960000+08:00","text":"這個行政上的工作，我們都在準備。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:00.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:08.219000+08:00","text":"OK，所以12月以前，會把已經退休的人他們重新核定計算退休金的核定函再寄發，是嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:08.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:11.061000+08:00","text":"計畫上是這樣，部長這邊應該也沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:11.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:12.061000+08:00","text":"這個時程沒有改變嘛？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:12.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:14.002000+08:00","text":"沒有改變。好。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:14.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:42.735000+08:00","text":"下一個問題，我們之前討論的都是之前已經退休的，因為法律有變更，退休的所得替代率變更，所以要重新計算，不過這個法律在4月25號就已經生效了，我在4月25以後申請退休，譬如今年夏天7月或8月的時候，我申請退休，這個時候，銓敘部針對法律生效了以後，它所核發的審定函是依照新法還是舊法？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:43.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:44.436000+08:00","text":"應該是依照新法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:46.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:49.780000+08:00","text":"確定依照新法嗎？是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:49.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:50.880000+08:00","text":"確定依照新法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:50.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:53.402000+08:00","text":"你們核定函的寄發是按照新法的所得替代率嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:54.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:16:56.241000+08:00","text":"我是不是請施部長來說明？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:16:56.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:17:28.736000+08:00","text":"可以，因為我必須講一個比較直接的，我在準備這個題目的時候，我有請教立法院最近這一、兩個月退休的警察同仁，因為平常跟他們有互動，所以我就關心這件事，但是他們跟我反映的事情是，法律生效了以後，退休的人收到的審定函還是按照舊法，不是按照新法，所以我才要特別把這件事情提出來，但是你們說是用新法，那是他的審定函計算錯誤嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:17:28.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:17:29.556000+08:00","text":"還是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:17:29.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:17:44.081000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我們對於新退休的同仁，本來就是兩個法律，根據原來的退撫法，我們核多少，然後根據調整的警察人員人事條例會核多少，所以其實那個審定函裡面會把兩件事情同時說明清楚。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:17:45.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:17:46.322000+08:00","text":"兩個審定函同時說明清楚？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:17:46.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:17:49.623000+08:00","text":"一個審定函裡面會交代這兩件事情。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:17:51.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:17:55.780000+08:00","text":"從審定函生效了以後，他所領到的退休金是按照新法還是舊法計算？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:17:56.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:11.973000+08:00","text":"應該是說，如果根據退撫法，應該支的就是馬上發給，但是因為警察人員人事條例的差額，這部分我們會先審定他應該拿多少，但是那個差額要等核定完以後，再補差額。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:14.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:22.620000+08:00","text":"對不起，我聽不懂，你發給一個人，他退休的時候，退休金領多少錢的審定函，它基本上是一個行政處分吧？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:23+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:23.942000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:23.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:31.611000+08:00","text":"那個行政處分本身所發生的效力範圍，到底是按照新法計算退休金，還是按照舊法計算退休金？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:32.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:34.758000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，那個審定函同時說明兩件事……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:34.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:35.539000+08:00","text":"是，我知道……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:35.539000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:37.120000+08:00","text":"一個是舊法你領多少，不是馬上給你……","quality":0.267},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:37.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:48.690000+08:00","text":"你說明欄怎麼講都OK，剛剛你已經說明過了，我說那個行政處分對外部的法律事件發生法律效力的退休金，是按照新法計算還是舊法計算？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:50.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:51.713000+08:00","text":"我就說它兩個都包括。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:53.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:57.878000+08:00","text":"好，那如果兩個都包括，包括依照新法計算的也對外發生法律效力了嘛？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:18:57.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:18:58.539000+08:00","text":"這樣說沒有錯嘛？對。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:00.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:09.210000+08:00","text":"雖然對外發生法律效力，但是現在針對新法所通過的退休金，他現在領不到是嗎？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:09.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:09.971000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:09.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:11.173000+08:00","text":"因為那個還沒有計算出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:12.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:14.040000+08:00","text":"新法的還沒有計算出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:14.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:19.982000+08:00","text":"因為新法有所得替代率到80%，所以我們在那審定函裡面有特別交代會有一個程序，我們只是程序……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:20.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:20.763000+08:00","text":"這樣好了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:22.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:39.251000+08:00","text":"你們在發那個審定函的時候，不要涉及到任何人的個資，譬如說那警察叫什麼名字、身分證字號幾號、年紀等等，這個全部都不用，你所講的有兩個部分的那個審定函，你會後可不可以提供給我？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:39.251000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:40.351000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，我們就把……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:40.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:45.814000+08:00","text":"我現在覺得很困惑，因為警察同仁跟我反映說不是三讀通過了嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:45.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:48.056000+08:00","text":"三讀通過不是按照新法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:48.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:51.558000+08:00","text":"那為什麼我們收到的還是按照舊法在計算的退休金？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:52.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:19:58.763000+08:00","text":"這個是他們現在、他們在主張的全部都是合法的權益，是立法院三讀通過的法律啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:19:59.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:20:11.792000+08:00","text":"當然現在行政院院長卓榮泰可能以為自己是大法官，他有他的法律見解，不關你們考試院的事，但我要求的只有考試院是不是有依法行政，只有這件事情而已。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:20:12.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:20:15.535000+08:00","text":"你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的？有。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:20:16.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:20:24.280000+08:00","text":"然後等你們公事處理完了以後、電腦系統完了以後，該補給他們的都會補給他們，是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:20:24.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:20:35.687000+08:00","text":"因為那個後面的錢，並不是我們退撫基金支的，根據法律，那個應該是內政部那邊去支的，所以要等那邊的預算編列完成，他們才會補到差額。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:20:35.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:20:37.929000+08:00","text":"那個是牽涉到另外一個層次的事情啦！沒錯。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:20:38.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:20:49.478000+08:00","text":"因為這些公務員對於國家在公法上的金錢債權，不會因為國家有沒有編列預算而有所差別，這個是行政法的A、B、C，我想不用特別解釋，應該都清楚啦！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:20:50.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:21:18.178000+08:00","text":"只是到時候該依法編列的預算沒有編列，導致國家在公法上的金錢債權沒有辦法滿足的話，而引發後續進一步的行政訴訟，甚至大規模的集體訴訟，在取得勝訴確定判決以後，對於屬於中華民國的財產來進行公法上的強制執行，走到那一步，我必須要說：就很難看了。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:21:18.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:21:31.989000+08:00","text":"那個是政府的失職，當然，我希望行政院可以迷途知返，這件事不要再發生；第二件事情，公務人員行政中立法的適用有疑義，由誰來加以解釋？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:21:31.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:21:35.112000+08:00","text":"我講的不是具體個案的事實認定，而是法律適用。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:21:36.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:21:41.797000+08:00","text":"如果不是通案性的解釋，是由主管機關銓敘部會做解釋。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:21:41.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:21:44.279000+08:00","text":"由主管機關銓敘部來加以解釋？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:21:44.279000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:21:45.279000+08:00","text":"通案性的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:21:44.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:22:03.248000+08:00","text":"好，我請教一下，之前我在這邊公開質疑前民進黨中常委，後來接任畜產會的董事長，年薪將近300萬的蘇治芬，有沒有行政人員中立法的適用？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:22:04.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:22:06.671000+08:00","text":"我已經得到答案是有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:22:07.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:22:11.634000+08:00","text":"當然在個案的追究上，我就覺得很奇怪，中央畜產會很閒嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:22:14.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:22:21.611000+08:00","text":"一年領將近300萬，結果跑去搞大罷免，上班都不用上班，真的很閒嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:22:21.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:22:36.817000+08:00","text":"牽涉到具體個案認定的部分，人事長率先表態這件事情不應該，不應該這樣做、不應該發生，但是取決於他有請假或沒有請假，所以這個就會牽涉到主管機關，也就是具體個案事實認定。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:22:37.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:22:51.589000+08:00","text":"農業部回函給我，7月18號到7月25號蘇治芬董事長已經請假，因為請假了，他請假要去做什麼樣的事情，就是他政治參與活動的自由，沒有違法。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:22:53.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:22:58.696000+08:00","text":"對於農業部所表達這樣法規上的立場，是不是也是銓敘部的立場？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:22:58.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:14.368000+08:00","text":"就是公務人員只要有請假，譬如今天星期四，我請假、我沒有領國家的薪水，我要去參與大罷免的活動，這是公務人員的政治自由，是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:14.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:18.489000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，根據中立法，因為他是屬於準用的對象。是。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:19.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:27.732000+08:00","text":"準用對象裡面，有些是屬於任何時間你都不應該做的；有些是你可以請假做的，而且什麼活動你可以做、什麼活動你不可以做……","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:27.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:28.092000+08:00","text":"這我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:28.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:32.757000+08:00","text":"我們通案解釋是這樣，至於這個個案本身到底是什麼狀況，可以提交……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:32.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:35.721000+08:00","text":"我現在沒有要跟你講個案。沒錯。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:36.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:46.814000+08:00","text":"現在我在講的原則，就是公務人員只要有請假，就可以去參加相關的選舉罷免活動，基本的法律原則是不是這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:46.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:47.875000+08:00","text":"還是只有對蘇治芬是這樣？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:49.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:57.074000+08:00","text":"如果他是屬於請假，但是他去參加罷免活動也不能夠使用到公共資源等等之類的。是！","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:57.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:23:58.917000+08:00","text":"在法律裡面有這樣一個規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:23:59.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:02.094000+08:00","text":"對所有公務人員都一樣嘛，對吧？就是……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:03.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:05.917000+08:00","text":"所有公務人員一體適用，這個原則很重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:06.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:09.439000+08:00","text":"它還是有一些不同的法條會框進來。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:09.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:10.780000+08:00","text":"是，我了解啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:11.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:23.729000+08:00","text":"但是我現在在講的是，其實我只要你講一個立場，這個事情不是蘇治芬有特權，是所有的公務人員，你要請假的時候，只要不要違反公務人員行政中立法的規定，這本來就是你的政治參與自由。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:24.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:24.189000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:25.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:47.650000+08:00","text":"你就大大方方說是就好了，讓所有公務人員心裡都有數嘛，大家以後休假時都有政治參與的自由，不用擔心被扣上違反公務人員行政中立法的帽子，或者是不用擔心我只能夠去幫執政黨，不能去幫在野黨；幫執政黨沒事，幫在野黨可能會出事，不要出現這樣的狀況就好了。","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:49.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:51.673000+08:00","text":"中立法有關請假是你的權利……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:51.673000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:52.673000+08:00","text":"非常好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:51.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:56.335000+08:00","text":"但是你在參與的政治活動，也不能違反中立法相關的規定。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:57.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:24:58.076000+08:00","text":"如果沒有請假呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:24:59.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:25:02.599000+08:00","text":"沒有請假，就會有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:25:03.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:25:05.189000+08:00","text":"沒有請假就會有問題嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:25:05.189000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:25:06.189000+08:00","text":"對，那是上班時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:25:05.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:25:15.394000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，這個不牽涉到銓敘部的職權，我到時候再請農業部繼續追，農業部說：他7月18號到25號是請假。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:25:16.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:25:37.648000+08:00","text":"但我現在看他公開在上班的時間，7月10號、7月11號全部都是上班日，在臉書上公開發文倡議大惡罷，在上班時間用臉書公開發文倡議大惡罷，這有沒有違反公務人員行政中立法？","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:25:38.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:25:40.430000+08:00","text":"因為如果是上班時間……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:25:41.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:25:43.513000+08:00","text":"這個確定是上班的時間，他沒有請假。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2025-10-09T09:25:44.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:25:44.934000+08:00","text":"因為個案我不清楚，如果是上班的時間……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:25:45.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:25:51.519000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，你只要表達這個原則就好了，具體的個案，接下來農業部要去做處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:25:52.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:26:13.255000+08:00","text":"時間關係，最後一個問題，之前我一直很關心考績的制度，因為考績制度攸關全中華民國的公務員，我們希望一個考績制度去獎勵認真、負責的人，而不是去獎勵一個會向上管理、抱大腿的人，我相信這是文官中立一個非常基本的原則。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:26:13.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:26:24.244000+08:00","text":"但問題是，我們過去的考績制度非常地不合理，列甲等的比例不逾75%，同時官等越大、甲等的比例越高。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:26:25.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:26:34.808000+08:00","text":"我從第一次當立法委員就在關心這個制度，所以上次考試院正副院長以及考試委員提名的時候，我說這個考績制度要不要改？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:26:36.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:26:53.024000+08:00","text":"從院長、副院長到考試委員每一個，全部都提出強烈地批判，說要改革，但我覺得有點納悶的事情是，今天提出來的考試院業務概況報告及立法計畫，針對考績制度的改革一個字都沒有寫。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:26:54.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:27:08.147000+08:00","text":"所以當初考試院正副院長跟考試委員是在立法院欺騙大家，說考績制度不合理、我們要改革，結果行使同意權，當上了考試院正副院長跟考試委員了以後，就沒把它當一回事嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:27:08.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:27:09.767000+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:27:09.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:27:21.053000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，周院長有指示考績法修正的部分，也是在立法院行使同意權，大家共同的看法跟承諾，所以這個事情必須要推動。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:27:22.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:27:37.157000+08:00","text":"沒有寫在報告裡面，主要是因為現在大概還在內部討論的階段，但是跟委員說明現在的狀況是，我們內部有做一個意見交換，現在銓敘部也形成一個草案，我們內部討論之後就會跟各機關交換意見，所以現在是在程序當中……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:27:37.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:27:37.397000+08:00","text":"這樣好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:27:37.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:28:02.420000+08:00","text":"因為我聽秘書長這樣子講，我可以理解，但是我還是有一些困惑，把它當成是一個重要的事情，要做就應該寫在書面報告裡，否則的話，立法院怎麼知道考試院認為這件事情很重要，你們有在做，這些事情只存在你們的內心，國會不知道、公務人員不知道、人民也不知道……","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:28:02.420000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:28:03.420000+08:00","text":"主要是我希望內部先有一個比較明確的方向……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:28:02.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:28:03.901000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，上一次我請教這個問題的時候，你說會忠實轉達我的意見，這個意見有忠實轉達嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:28:03.901000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:28:13.487000+08:00","text":"有，所以我們有進行一些程序。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:28:13.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:28:28.413000+08:00","text":"關於今天的書面報告，針對這個部分顯然考試院正副院長跟考試委員是有打算要履行他們在立法院所做的承諾，只不過在書面報告裡面沒有清楚地表達到底要怎樣來加以履行。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:28:29.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:28:39.257000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，是不是可以請主席裁示，請考試院會後提交一個補充報告，說明他們打算怎麼做、現在進度到哪裡。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:28:39.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:28:59.582000+08:00","text":"我現在沒有要你攤牌到底考績制度要怎麼改，但最起碼過去的這段時間當中，幾月幾號召開了什麼會議、進行了什麼準備，到目前為止的工作進度如何、打算什麼時候要把東西提出來，這些事情應該要讓國會知道，這個要求不會太過分吧？","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:28:59.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:00.622000+08:00","text":"可以，我們可以提供。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:01.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:01.602000+08:00","text":"需要多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:03.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:05.124000+08:00","text":"放完假以後交來，好嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:05.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:05.545000+08:00","text":"下個禮拜。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:05.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:07.086000+08:00","text":"下禮拜，就是把我們現在的進度跟處理的狀況……","quality":0.158},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:07.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:12.192000+08:00","text":"是，因為我在你們的書面報告裡面，我一個字都沒看到。了解。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:13.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:32.871000+08:00","text":"我是不願意講這是一個不及格的報告，這樣的話可能有點太重了，畢竟你們各個部會寫的東西，以字數來講，跟行政院其他部會比起來，相對而言是比較充實，但是重要的事情，該寫的還是要寫，所以下禮拜把你們的補充報告再補交來，好嗎？可以。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:33.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:33.192000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:33.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:35.120571+08:00","text":"謝謝黃委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:35.420571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:43.134857+08:00","text":"也請秘書長依照黃委員的指示，在下禮拜把補充報告交出來，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-09T09:29:43.434857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-09T09:29:46.577714+08:00","text":"接下來，請吳宗憲委員詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時15分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長早。警察人員人事條例在今年4月25號總統已經公布生效了，這是一個三讀通過、總統公布的有效法律，之前我曾經在兩次質詢的時間中請教銓敘部的官員，他明確的表示考試院會依法行政，目前正在進行電腦系統重新的整備，需要一些時間，所以今年12月底以前，針對已經退休要重新計算的退休金會重新核定，這樣子的立場跟時程有沒有改變？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個沒有改變。"],["黃委員國昌：現在持續在進行當中？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個行政上的工作，我們都在準備。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，所以12月以前，會把已經退休的人他們重新核定計算退休金的核定函再寄發，是嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：計畫上是這樣，部長這邊應該也沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：這個時程沒有改變嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有改變。"],["黃委員國昌：好。下一個問題，我們之前討論的都是之前已經退休的，因為法律有變更，退休的所得替代率變更，所以要重新計算，不過這個法律在4月25號就已經生效了，我在4月25以後申請退休，譬如今年夏天7月或8月的時候，我申請退休，這個時候，銓敘部針對法律生效了以後，它所核發的審定函是依照新法還是舊法？"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該是依照新法。"],["黃委員國昌：確定依照新法嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["黃委員國昌：確定依照新法嗎？你們核定函的寄發是按照新法的所得替代率嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我是不是請施部長來說明？"],["黃委員國昌：可以，因為我必須講一個比較直接的，我在準備這個題目的時候，我有請教立法院最近這一、兩個月退休的警察同仁，因為平常跟他們有互動，所以我就關心這件事，但是他們跟我反映的事情是，法律生效了以後，退休的人收到的審定函還是按照舊法，不是按照新法，所以我才要特別把這件事情提出來，但是你們說是用新法，那是他的審定函計算錯誤嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，我們對於新退休的同仁，本來就是兩個法律，根據原來的退撫法，我們核多少，然後根據調整的警察人員人事條例會核多少，所以其實那個審定函裡面會把兩件事情同時說明清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個審定函同時說明清楚？"],["施部長能傑：一個審定函裡面會交代這兩件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：好。從審定函生效了以後，他所領到的退休金是按照新法還是舊法計算？"],["施部長能傑：應該是說，如果根據退撫法，應該支的就是馬上發給，但是因為警察人員人事條例的差額，這部分我們會先審定他應該拿多少，但是那個差額要等核定完以後，再補差額。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我聽不懂，你發給一個人，他退休的時候，退休金領多少錢的審定函，它基本上是一個行政處分吧？"],["施部長能傑：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：那個行政處分本身所發生的效力範圍，到底是按照新法計算退休金，還是按照舊法計算退休金？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，那個審定函同時說明兩件事……"],["黃委員國昌：是，我知道……"],["施部長能傑：一個是舊法你領多少，不是馬上給你……"],["黃委員國昌：你說明欄怎麼講都OK，剛剛你已經說明過了，我說那個行政處分對外部的法律事件發生法律效力的退休金，是按照新法計算還是舊法計算？"],["施部長能傑：我就說它兩個都包括。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那如果兩個都包括，包括依照新法計算的也對外發生法律效力了嘛？這樣說沒有錯嘛？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["黃委員國昌：雖然對外發生法律效力，但是現在針對新法所通過的退休金，他現在領不到是嗎？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼？"],["施部長能傑：因為那個還沒有計算出來。"],["黃委員國昌：新法的還沒有計算出來？"],["施部長能傑：因為新法有所得替代率到80%，所以我們在那審定函裡面有特別交代會有一個程序，我們只是程序……"],["黃委員國昌：這樣好了啦！你們在發那個審定函的時候，不要涉及到任何人的個資，譬如說那警察叫什麼名字、身分證字號幾號、年紀等等，這個全部都不用，你所講的有兩個部分的那個審定函，你會後可不可以提供給我？"],["施部長能傑：沒有問題，我們就把……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在覺得很困惑，因為警察同仁跟我反映說不是三讀通過了嗎？三讀通過不是按照新法嗎？那為什麼我們收到的還是按照舊法在計算的退休金？這個是他們現在、他們在主張的全部都是合法的權益，是立法院三讀通過的法律啊！當然現在行政院院長卓榮泰可能以為自己是大法官，他有他的法律見解，不關你們考試院的事，但我要求的只有考試院是不是有依法行政，只有這件事情而已。你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的？"],["施部長能傑：有。"],["黃委員國昌：然後等你們公事處理完了以後、電腦系統完了以後，該補給他們的都會補給他們，是嗎？"],["施部長能傑：因為那個後面的錢，並不是我們退撫基金支的，根據法律，那個應該是內政部那邊去支的，所以要等那邊的預算編列完成，他們才會補到差額。"],["黃委員國昌：那個是牽涉到另外一個層次的事情啦！"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這些公務員對於國家在公法上的金錢債權，不會因為國家有沒有編列預算而有所差別，這個是行政法的A、B、C，我想不用特別解釋，應該都清楚啦！只是到時候該依法編列的預算沒有編列，導致國家在公法上的金錢債權沒有辦法滿足的話，而引發後續進一步的行政訴訟，甚至大規模的集體訴訟，在取得勝訴確定判決以後，對於屬於中華民國的財產來進行公法上的強制執行，走到那一步，我必須要說：就很難看了。那個是政府的失職，當然，我希望行政院可以迷途知返，這件事不要再發生；第二件事情，公務人員行政中立法的適用有疑義，由誰來加以解釋？我講的不是具體個案的事實認定，而是法律適用。"],["施部長能傑：如果不是通案性的解釋，是由主管機關銓敘部會做解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：由主管機關銓敘部來加以解釋？"],["施部長能傑：通案性的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我請教一下，之前我在這邊公開質疑前民進黨中常委，後來接任畜產會的董事長，年薪將近300萬的蘇治芬，有沒有行政人員中立法的適用？我已經得到答案是有。當然在個案的追究上，我就覺得很奇怪，中央畜產會很閒嗎？一年領將近300萬，結果跑去搞大罷免，上班都不用上班，真的很閒嗎？牽涉到具體個案認定的部分，人事長率先表態這件事情不應該，不應該這樣做、不應該發生，但是取決於他有請假或沒有請假，所以這個就會牽涉到主管機關，也就是具體個案事實認定。","農業部回函給我，7月18號到7月25號蘇治芬董事長已經請假，因為請假了，他請假要去做什麼樣的事情，就是他政治參與活動的自由，沒有違法。對於農業部所表達這樣法規上的立場，是不是也是銓敘部的立場？就是公務人員只要有請假，譬如今天星期四，我請假、我沒有領國家的薪水，我要去參與大罷免的活動，這是公務人員的政治自由，是嗎？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，根據中立法，因為他是屬於準用的對象。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["施部長能傑：準用對象裡面，有些是屬於任何時間你都不應該做的；有些是你可以請假做的，而且什麼活動你可以做、什麼活動你不可以做……"],["黃委員國昌：這我知道。"],["施部長能傑：我們通案解釋是這樣，至於這個個案本身到底是什麼狀況，可以提交……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在沒有要跟你講個案。"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在講的原則，就是公務人員只要有請假，就可以去參加相關的選舉罷免活動，基本的法律原則是不是這樣？還是只有對蘇治芬是這樣？"],["施部長能傑：如果他是屬於請假，但是他去參加罷免活動也不能夠使用到公共資源等等之類的。"],["黃委員國昌：是！"],["施部長能傑：在法律裡面有這樣一個規定。"],["黃委員國昌：對所有公務人員都一樣嘛，對吧？"],["施部長能傑：就是……"],["黃委員國昌：所有公務人員一體適用，這個原則很重要。"],["施部長能傑：它還是有一些不同的法條會框進來。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我了解啦！但是我現在在講的是，其實我只要你講一個立場，這個事情不是蘇治芬有特權，是所有的公務人員，你要請假的時候，只要不要違反公務人員行政中立法的規定，這本來就是你的政治參與自由。"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：你就大大方方說是就好了，讓所有公務人員心裡都有數嘛，大家以後休假時都有政治參與的自由，不用擔心被扣上違反公務人員行政中立法的帽子，或者是不用擔心我只能夠去幫執政黨，不能去幫在野黨；幫執政黨沒事，幫在野黨可能會出事，不要出現這樣的狀況就好了。"],["施部長能傑：中立法有關請假是你的權利……"],["黃委員國昌：非常好。"],["施部長能傑：但是你在參與的政治活動，也不能違反中立法相關的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有請假呢？"],["施部長能傑：沒有請假，就會有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有請假就會有問題嘛？"],["施部長能傑：對，那是上班時間。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，這個不牽涉到銓敘部的職權，我到時候再請農業部繼續追，農業部說：他7月18號到25號是請假。但我現在看他公開在上班的時間，7月10號、7月11號全部都是上班日，在臉書上公開發文倡議大惡罷，在上班時間用臉書公開發文倡議大惡罷，這有沒有違反公務人員行政中立法？"],["施部長能傑：因為如果是上班時間……"],["黃委員國昌：這個確定是上班的時間，他沒有請假。"],["施部長能傑：因為個案我不清楚，如果是上班的時間……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你只要表達這個原則就好了，具體的個案，接下來農業部要去做處理。","時間關係，最後一個問題，之前我一直很關心考績的制度，因為考績制度攸關全中華民國的公務員，我們希望一個考績制度去獎勵認真、負責的人，而不是去獎勵一個會向上管理、抱大腿的人，我相信這是文官中立一個非常基本的原則。但問題是，我們過去的考績制度非常地不合理，列甲等的比例不逾75%，同時官等越大、甲等的比例越高。我從第一次當立法委員就在關心這個制度，所以上次考試院正副院長以及考試委員提名的時候，我說這個考績制度要不要改？從院長、副院長到考試委員每一個，全部都提出強烈地批判，說要改革，但我覺得有點納悶的事情是，今天提出來的考試院業務概況報告及立法計畫，針對考績制度的改革一個字都沒有寫。所以當初考試院正副院長跟考試委員是在立法院欺騙大家，說考績制度不合理、我們要改革，結果行使同意權，當上了考試院正副院長跟考試委員了以後，就沒把它當一回事嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員說明，周院長有指示考績法修正的部分，也是在立法院行使同意權，大家共同的看法跟承諾，所以這個事情必須要推動。沒有寫在報告裡面，主要是因為現在大概還在內部討論的階段，但是跟委員說明現在的狀況是，我們內部有做一個意見交換，現在銓敘部也形成一個草案，我們內部討論之後就會跟各機關交換意見，所以現在是在程序當中……"],["黃委員國昌：這樣好不好？因為我聽秘書長這樣子講，我可以理解，但是我還是有一些困惑，把它當成是一個重要的事情，要做就應該寫在書面報告裡，否則的話，立法院怎麼知道考試院認為這件事情很重要，你們有在做，這些事情只存在你們的內心，國會不知道、公務人員不知道、人民也不知道……"],["劉秘書長建忻：主要是我希望內部先有一個比較明確的方向……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，上一次我請教這個問題的時候，你說會忠實轉達我的意見，這個意見有忠實轉達嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：有，所以我們有進行一些程序。"],["黃委員國昌：關於今天的書面報告，針對這個部分顯然考試院正副院長跟考試委員是有打算要履行他們在立法院所做的承諾，只不過在書面報告裡面沒有清楚地表達到底要怎樣來加以履行。針對這個部分，是不是可以請主席裁示，請考試院會後提交一個補充報告，說明他們打算怎麼做、現在進度到哪裡。我現在沒有要你攤牌到底考績制度要怎麼改，但最起碼過去的這段時間當中，幾月幾號召開了什麼會議、進行了什麼準備，到目前為止的工作進度如何、打算什麼時候要把東西提出來，這些事情應該要讓國會知道，這個要求不會太過分吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：可以，我們可以提供。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？放完假以後交來，好嗎？下個禮拜。"],["劉秘書長建忻：下禮拜，就是把我們現在的進度跟處理的狀況……"],["黃委員國昌：是，因為我在你們的書面報告裡面，我一個字都沒看到。"],["劉秘書長建忻：了解。"],["黃委員國昌：我是不願意講這是一個不及格的報告，這樣的話可能有點太重了，畢竟你們各個部會寫的東西，以字數來講，跟行政院其他部會比起來，相對而言是比較充實，但是重要的事情，該寫的還是要寫，所以下禮拜把你們的補充報告再補交來，好嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。也請秘書長依照黃委員的指示，在下禮拜把補充報告交出來，謝謝。","接下來，請吳宗憲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}