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在問公教年金是否停侃的問題之前我想先問一個看起來不是全序部主管但事實上和年金停侃有絕對相關的問題我想請問全序部 以限制來說勞保何時會破產 基金何時會歸零"},{"start":40.729,"end":69.827,"text":"勞保部我沒有研究不知道你當然不知道啦 我告訴你啦我告訴你答案好不好我告訴你答案啦勞保不會破產基金也不會歸零啦你知道為什麼嗎市長你知道為什麼嗎你不知道啊 我告訴你啊因為政府已經公開保證會對勞保負起最終支付責任我們的前勞動部長還說撥補就是改革撥補是不是改革 請問市長"},{"start":74.376,"end":87.517,"text":"撥補列為改革 這個當然可以有很多不同的面向來問你的面向 全序部的面向撥補是不是改革應該是這樣講 撥補也是增加我們基金來源的一部分"},{"start":89.08,"end":105.073,"text":"來來來我跟你講勞保不斷虧損你知道為了穩定勞保財務政府從民國109年開始透過總預算跟特別條例來撥補7年來撥補勞保基金多少錢來穩定勞保基金的水位"},{"start":106.038,"end":134.352,"text":"你還是不知道對啊 5170億而且撥補的金額越來越大109年200億逐年跳增113年1200億今年1200億115年也是1200億好 我就要回頭來問年金停侃的問題啊權敘部反對停侃年金嘛 對不對所得替代率嘛 對不對最主要理由是什麼一個啦 我直接講啦"},{"start":135.273,"end":164.471,"text":"不繼續砍下去不把軍工叫砍死基金會提前歸零是不是應該這樣講就是說如果我們停止那個那個那個往下所得價降我們基金大概會未來到118年大概我們會減少收入大概提前多少提前多久歸零你們講的兩千七百多億兩年嘛對不對接近到四年一二九年左右兩年到四年嘛對不對所以來啊"},{"start":165.646,"end":185.154,"text":"我支持政府對勞保承諾最終支付責任我也支持政府對勞保撥補但我想問你三個為什麼為什麼勞保政府可以撥補公教年金停侃政府就不能撥補為什麼勞保可以撥補公教年金停侃政府不能撥補"},{"start":186.328,"end":215.53,"text":"我們也都有在爭取撥補啊非常好啊 你好好爭取嘛那你主張什麼停砍年金 不反對 為什麼反對你爭取好撥補就不用反對啦你說剛說的喔 你說在爭取撥補啊我也請我們今天偉大民進黨政府啊全區部都說要撥補啊 趕快撥補還在找藉口說停砍年金 不可以第二個 為什麼勞保政府可以保證最終支付責任公教年金停砍 政府就不能保證最終支付責任"},{"start":216.704,"end":242.925,"text":"可不可以保證最終自負責任 請我們目前法律上就是這樣規定 非常好既然這樣子的話 你還跟我講破產歸零還在威脅大家發不出退休金但是你那個最後就要全部大家一起來 你的邏輯你自己都不要整理一下邏輯根本錯亂嘛來 那為什麼我們政府保證勞保不會破產 你剛才也講啦不會破產嘛 對不對"},{"start":244.244,"end":271.122,"text":"我們的公教年金不會破產嗎不會破產啊你剛剛都講可以撥補啊負最終自負責任啊那怕什麼破產還是要修正一下沒有喔 並沒有喔我跟你講 次長今天是我質詢全序部啊我最滿意的一天你第一個告訴我說可以撥補我謝謝你 你在爭取撥補我請那無良的民進黨聽進次長這句話爭取撥補"},{"start":274.471,"end":299.474,"text":"那你說 就是政府會付最終支付責任啊你撥補完 你就不用擔心破產問題啊有沒有歸零的問題啊跟淘寶基金一樣啊我直接告訴你啦市長 你還有同理心啦可是我們的民進黨政府賴清德總統就是瞧不起軍人瞧不起公教 瞧不起警消就是要欺負軍人 欺負公教 欺負警消"},{"start":301.4,"end":319.057,"text":"國民黨跟羅志強跟我們翁小林主席我們一路的挺軍人挺公教挺警消但我很難過看著一個政府賴清德民進黨一路的踩軍人踩公教踩警消這我最難過的事情我都還沒講台電撥補"},{"start":320.919,"end":328.706,"text":"為了要讓綠油油賺大錢對不對錯誤的能源政策搞得今天台電虧損連連撥補3000億都不夠虧損還有將近5000億阿你怎麼不說台電會打"},{"start":334.226,"end":358.937,"text":"因為綠油有中藥嘛所以直接拿軍公教開刀就是現在民進黨政府的做法最後我要跟你講啦我們的公教人員也沒有多麼了不起奢侈的要求他要求不過是停砍有要求回到2018年嗎 有嗎 有沒有我們的年金提案有要求回到2018年嗎 有沒有沒有嘛從一開始砍5% 接下來逐年1.5%請問現在已經砍多少了"},{"start":361.605,"end":366.87,"text":"從今年應該是到68.5累積起來砍多少了累積起來大概剩68嘛 對不對對 68.5我告訴你啊 次長"},{"start":373.206,"end":391.272,"text":"現在軍公教 我們的公教人員你把他血跟肉都砍光了他今天也不是沒有體諒到今天國家財政問題他只是卑微的請求你骨跟筋不要斷掉它嘛這才是今天為什麼要提出停砍年金我還沒講後面 最後很快結論我們的"},{"start":394.535,"end":421.446,"text":"軍工教是我們經濟發展國家安全跟社會穩定的最大基石現在你也知道老師找不到以前老師搶破頭但老師找不到公務人員報考人數可以從52萬直接掉到16萬少了七成你沒有辦法吸引好的人才請問怎麼去支撐政府的運作所以拜託高台貴手今天我也很開心今天市長告訴大家你會爭取撥補"},{"start":423.107,"end":432.515,"text":"就好好爭取波姆不要再阻攔停坦年金的一個我們的這個改革了拜託留給我們的軍公教留給我們公教人員一條生路謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:43:50+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:43:52.459500+08:00","text":"主席好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:43:52.459500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:43:54.919000+08:00","text":"有請銓敘部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-20T12:43:54.919000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:43:57.378500+08:00","text":"有請懷次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:43:57.378500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:43:59.838000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:43:59.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:43:59.838000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:43:59.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:03.781000+08:00","text":"在問公教年金是否停砍的問題之前，我想先問一個看起來不是銓敘部主管，但事實上跟年金停砍有絕對相關的問題。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:03.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:04.101000+08:00","text":"我想請問銓敘部，以現制來說，勞保何時會破產？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:04.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:04.301000+08:00","text":"基金何時會歸零？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:30.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:32.530000+08:00","text":"勞保部分我沒有研究，我不知道。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:32.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:41.716000+08:00","text":"你當然不知道，我告訴你答案，勞保不會破產，基金也不會歸零，你知道為什麼嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:41.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:46.299000+08:00","text":"次長，你知道為什麼嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:46.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:46.579000+08:00","text":"你不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:46.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:53.063000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，因為政府已經公開保證，會對勞保負起最終支付責任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:54.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:57.385000+08:00","text":"前勞動部長還說，撥補就是改革。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:58.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:59.186000+08:00","text":"請問次長，撥補是不是改革？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:44:59.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:44:59.827000+08:00","text":"請問次長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:04.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:08.923000+08:00","text":"撥補列為改革，這個當然可以有很多不同的面向來看……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:08.923000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:09.923000+08:00","text":"什麼叫不同的面向？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:08.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:12.629000+08:00","text":"我問你的面向，銓敘部的面向，撥補是不是改革？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:12.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:17.497000+08:00","text":"應該是這樣講，撥補也是增加基金來源的一部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:17.497000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:19.080000+08:00","text":"不敢面對啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:19.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:35.053000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，勞保不斷虧損，你知道為了穩定勞保財務，政府從民國109年開始透過總預算跟特別條例來撥補，7年來撥補勞保基金多少錢，來穩定勞保基金的水位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:36.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:36.638000+08:00","text":"你還是不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:36.638000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:41.080000+08:00","text":"我看新聞好像幾千億的樣子。對啊！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:41.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:52.006000+08:00","text":"5,170億，而且撥補的金額越來越大，109年200億，逐年跳增，113年1,200億，今年1,200億，115年也是1,200億。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:52.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:45:59.389000+08:00","text":"好，我就要回頭來問年金停砍的問題，銓敘部反對停砍年金，對不對？是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:45:59.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:00.050000+08:00","text":"所得替代率嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:01.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:01.490000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:01.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:02.831000+08:00","text":"最主要的理由是什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:02.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:03.111000+08:00","text":"一個啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:03.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:10.656000+08:00","text":"我直接講啦，不繼續砍下去，不把軍公教砍死，基金會提前歸零，是不是？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:13.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:23.004000+08:00","text":"應該這樣講，如果我們停止所得替代率往下降，基金未來到118年會減少收入大概……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:23.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:23.564000+08:00","text":"提前多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:23.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:24.785000+08:00","text":"提前多久歸零？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:25.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:26.726000+08:00","text":"大概兩千七百多億。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:26.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:29.588000+08:00","text":"兩年，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:29.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:31.369000+08:00","text":"接近二到四年，129年左右。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:31.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:34.050000+08:00","text":"兩年到四年，對不對？對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:34.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:46.510000+08:00","text":"所以我支持政府對勞保承諾最終支付責任，我也支持政府對勞保撥補，但我想問你3個為什麼。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:46.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:51.993000+08:00","text":"為什麼勞保政府可以撥補，公教年金停砍政府就不能撥補？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:51.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:55.154000+08:00","text":"為什麼勞保可以撥補，公教年金停砍政府不能撥補？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:56.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:46:57.389000+08:00","text":"我們也都有在爭取撥補啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:46:58.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:00.171000+08:00","text":"非常好，你好好爭取嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:00.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:04.294000+08:00","text":"那你主張什麼停砍年金，反對，為什麼反對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:04.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:05.835000+08:00","text":"你爭取好撥補就不用反對啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:05.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:15.483000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說的，你說在爭取撥補，銓敘部都說要撥補，我也請偉大的民進黨政府趕快撥補！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:15.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:17.024000+08:00","text":"還在找藉口說不可以停砍年金。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:18.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:25.510000+08:00","text":"第二個，為什麼勞保政府可以保證最終支付責任，公教年金停砍政府就不能保證最終支付責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:26.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:27.865000+08:00","text":"可不可以保證最終支付責任？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:28.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:28.726000+08:00","text":"請我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:28.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:30.227000+08:00","text":"目前法律上就是這樣規定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:30.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:36.452000+08:00","text":"非常好，既然這樣子的話，你還跟我講破產歸零，還在威脅大家發不出退休金。","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:38.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:40.295000+08:00","text":"但是你那個最後就要全部大家一起來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:40.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:45.299000+08:00","text":"你的邏輯你自己都不要整理一下，邏輯根本錯亂嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:47.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:50.764000+08:00","text":"那為什麼政府保證勞保不會破產？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:50.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:52.925000+08:00","text":"你剛才也講了，不會破產，對不對？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:54.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:47:58.647000+08:00","text":"我們的公教年金不會破產，不會破產啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:47:59.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:02.109000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講可以撥補，負最終支付責任啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:02.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:05.371000+08:00","text":"要怕什麼破產？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:05.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:06.993000+08:00","text":"還是要修正一下，沒有，並沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:06.993000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:10.655000+08:00","text":"我們是說基金歸零，但是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:10.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:14.237000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，次長，今天是我質詢銓敘部，我最滿意的一天。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:15.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:19.841000+08:00","text":"你第一個告訴我說可以撥補，謝謝你，你在爭取撥補。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:19.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:21.122000+08:00","text":"我請無良的民進黨聽進次長這句話，爭取撥補。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:24.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:27.414000+08:00","text":"那你也說就是政府會負最終支付責任啊！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:28.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:32.218000+08:00","text":"你撥補完就不用擔心破產問題，也沒有歸零的問題啊！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:33.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:34.120000+08:00","text":"跟勞保基金一樣啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:35.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:49.454000+08:00","text":"我直接告訴你，次長還有同理心，可是民進黨政府賴清德總統就瞧不起軍人，瞧不起公教、瞧不起警消，就是要欺負軍人，欺負公教、欺負警消。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:51.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:48:57.786000+08:00","text":"國民黨跟羅智強、翁曉玲主席，我們一路在挺軍人、挺公教、挺警消。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:48:59.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:08.196000+08:00","text":"但我很難過，看著一個政府，賴清德、民進黨一路的踩軍人、踩公教、踩警消，這是我最難過的事情。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:08.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:14.102000+08:00","text":"我都還沒講台電撥補，為了要讓綠友友賺大錢，對不對？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:14.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:18.686000+08:00","text":"錯誤的能源政策，搞得今天台電虧損連連，撥補3,000億都不夠，虧損還有將近5,000億，你怎麼不說台電會倒？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:24.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:25.286000+08:00","text":"因為綠友友重要嘛！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:26.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:30.649000+08:00","text":"所以直接拿軍公教開刀就是現在民進黨政府的作法。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:31.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:41.414000+08:00","text":"最後我要跟你講，公教人員也沒有多麼了不起奢侈的要求，他的要求不過是停砍，有要求回到2018年嗎？有嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:41.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:41.634000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:42.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:44.275000+08:00","text":"我們的年金提案有要求回到2018年嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:44.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:44.275000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:44.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:44.475000+08:00","text":"草案上是沒有。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:46.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:46.436000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:47.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:48.917000+08:00","text":"從一開始砍5%，接下來逐年1.5%，請問現在已經砍多少了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:51.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:52.466000+08:00","text":"從今年應該是到68.5。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:52.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:53.567000+08:00","text":"累積起來砍多少了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"懷次長敍","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:53.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:54.588000+08:00","text":"累積起來大概……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:54.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:56.049000+08:00","text":"剩68，對不對？對，68.5。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:56.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:49:56.550000+08:00","text":"我告訴你啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:49:56.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:50:15.970000+08:00","text":"次長，你把軍公教人員的血跟肉都砍光了，他今天也不是沒有體諒到國家的財政問題，只是卑微的請求你，骨跟筋不要斷掉嘛！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:50:17.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:50:21.232000+08:00","text":"這才是今天為什麼要提出停砍年金，我還沒講後面，最後很快做個結論。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:50:24.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:50:28.877000+08:00","text":"軍公教是我們的經濟發展、國家安全跟社會穩定的最大基石。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:50:30.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:50:40.862000+08:00","text":"現在你也知道老師找不到，以前老師搶破頭，現在老師找不到，公務人員報考人數可以從52萬直接掉到16萬，少了7成。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:50:42.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:50:45.804000+08:00","text":"你沒有辦法吸引好的人才，請問怎麼支撐政府的運作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-20T12:50:46.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-20T12:51:02.515000+08:00","text":"拜託高抬貴手，今天我也很開心，次長告訴大家會爭取撥補，就好好爭取撥補，不要再阻攔我們停砍年金的改革了，拜託留給軍公教人員一條生路，謝謝！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-20T12:51:03.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:51:04.729286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝羅委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-20T12:51:05.029286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-20T12:51:08.172143+08:00","text":"接下來請吳沛憶委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時43分）主席好。有請銓敘部。"],["主席：有請懷次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：次長好。在問公教年金是否停砍的問題之前，我想先問一個看起來不是銓敘部主管，但事實上跟年金停砍有絕對相關的問題。我想請問銓敘部，以現制來說，勞保何時會破產？基金何時會歸零？"],["懷次長敍：勞保部分我沒有研究，我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：你當然不知道，我告訴你答案，勞保不會破產，基金也不會歸零，你知道為什麼嗎？次長，你知道為什麼嗎？你不知道？我告訴你，因為政府已經公開保證，會對勞保負起最終支付責任。前勞動部長還說，撥補就是改革。請問次長，撥補是不是改革？請問次長。"],["懷次長敍：撥補列為改革，這個當然可以有很多不同的面向來看……"],["羅委員智強：什麼叫不同的面向？我問你的面向，銓敘部的面向，撥補是不是改革？"],["懷次長敍：應該是這樣講，撥補也是增加基金來源的一部分。"],["羅委員智強：不敢面對啦！我跟你講，勞保不斷虧損，你知道為了穩定勞保財務，政府從民國109年開始透過總預算跟特別條例來撥補，7年來撥補勞保基金多少錢，來穩定勞保基金的水位？你還是不知道？"],["懷次長敍：我看新聞好像幾千億的樣子。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！5,170億，而且撥補的金額越來越大，109年200億，逐年跳增，113年1,200億，今年1,200億，115年也是1,200億。好，我就要回頭來問年金停砍的問題，銓敘部反對停砍年金，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["羅委員智強：所得替代率嘛！對不對？最主要的理由是什麼？一個啦！我直接講啦，不繼續砍下去，不把軍公教砍死，基金會提前歸零，是不是？"],["懷次長敍：應該這樣講，如果我們停止所得替代率往下降，基金未來到118年會減少收入大概……"],["羅委員智強：提前多少？提前多久歸零？"],["懷次長敍：大概兩千七百多億。"],["羅委員智強：兩年，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：接近二到四年，129年左右。"],["羅委員智強：兩年到四年，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：對。"],["羅委員智強：所以我支持政府對勞保承諾最終支付責任，我也支持政府對勞保撥補，但我想問你3個為什麼。為什麼勞保政府可以撥補，公教年金停砍政府就不能撥補？為什麼勞保可以撥補，公教年金停砍政府不能撥補？"],["懷次長敍：我們也都有在爭取撥補啊！"],["羅委員智強：非常好，你好好爭取嘛！那你主張什麼停砍年金，反對，為什麼反對？你爭取好撥補就不用反對啊！你剛剛說的，你說在爭取撥補，銓敘部都說要撥補，我也請偉大的民進黨政府趕快撥補！還在找藉口說不可以停砍年金。第二個，為什麼勞保政府可以保證最終支付責任，公教年金停砍政府就不能保證最終支付責任？可不可以保證最終支付責任？請我們……"],["懷次長敍：目前法律上就是這樣規定。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，既然這樣子的話，你還跟我講破產歸零，還在威脅大家發不出退休金。"],["懷次長敍：但是你那個最後就要全部大家一起來……"],["羅委員智強：你的邏輯你自己都不要整理一下，邏輯根本錯亂嘛！那為什麼政府保證勞保不會破產？你剛才也講了，不會破產，對不對？我們的公教年金不會破產，不會破產啊！你剛剛講可以撥補，負最終支付責任啊！要怕什麼破產？還是要修正一下，沒有，並沒有。"],["懷次長敍：我們是說基金歸零，但是……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，次長，今天是我質詢銓敘部，我最滿意的一天。你第一個告訴我說可以撥補，謝謝你，你在爭取撥補。我請無良的民進黨聽進次長這句話，爭取撥補。那你也說就是政府會負最終支付責任啊！你撥補完就不用擔心破產問題，也沒有歸零的問題啊！跟勞保基金一樣啊！我直接告訴你，次長還有同理心，可是民進黨政府賴清德總統就瞧不起軍人，瞧不起公教、瞧不起警消，就是要欺負軍人，欺負公教、欺負警消。國民黨跟羅智強、翁曉玲主席，我們一路在挺軍人、挺公教、挺警消。但我很難過，看著一個政府，賴清德、民進黨一路的踩軍人、踩公教、踩警消，這是我最難過的事情。我都還沒講台電撥補，為了要讓綠友友賺大錢，對不對？錯誤的能源政策，搞得今天台電虧損連連，撥補3,000億都不夠，虧損還有將近5,000億，你怎麼不說台電會倒？因為綠友友重要嘛！所以直接拿軍公教開刀就是現在民進黨政府的作法。","最後我要跟你講，公教人員也沒有多麼了不起奢侈的要求，他的要求不過是停砍，有要求回到2018年嗎？有嗎？有沒有？我們的年金提案有要求回到2018年嗎？有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：草案上是沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有嘛！從一開始砍5%，接下來逐年1.5%，請問現在已經砍多少了？"],["懷次長敍：從今年應該是到68.5。"],["羅委員智強：累積起來砍多少了？"],["懷次長敍：累積起來大概……"],["羅委員智強：剩68，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：對，68.5。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你啊！次長，你把軍公教人員的血跟肉都砍光了，他今天也不是沒有體諒到國家的財政問題，只是卑微的請求你，骨跟筋不要斷掉嘛！這才是今天為什麼要提出停砍年金，我還沒講後面，最後很快做個結論。","軍公教是我們的經濟發展、國家安全跟社會穩定的最大基石。現在你也知道老師找不到，以前老師搶破頭，現在老師找不到，公務人員報考人數可以從52萬直接掉到16萬，少了7成。你沒有辦法吸引好的人才，請問怎麼支撐政府的運作？拜託高抬貴手，今天我也很開心，次長告訴大家會爭取撥補，就好好爭取撥補，不要再阻攔我們停砍年金的改革了，拜託留給軍公教人員一條生路，謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員。","接下來請吳沛憶委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}