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有請秘書長委員早安副秘書長好我剛剛聽你的報告裡面你也特別強調憲法第八號判決嘛 對不對是要搭配所謂的調高死刑門檻我們司法院的相應的作為嘛 對不對是好"},{"start":30.253,"end":56.929,"text":"我想要請教您 你有聽過2022年的台版柬埔案嗎台版柬埔災案有聽過嗎我想請教祖賢蘭道這些人他總共關押綁架了多少人報告委員 那個案情我沒有詳細研究61個人 61個人副秘書長 我想請教就您在這個司法界這麼多年的實務經驗"},{"start":58.322,"end":86.339,"text":"妳有沒有看到哪一個案子可以綁架61個人的啊這個算是那個案情嚴重的案件應該從來沒有過吧被綁 被關最多人的一個刑事案件吧至少在妳職業生涯裡面應該沒見過吧那妳知道裡面多少人被他們殺掉死了多少人死了多少人妳知道嗎我告訴妳 剛開始以為死三個人啊他們這些人被"},{"start":87.737,"end":111.905,"text":"收身搶劫 塞上毛巾上手銬腳綁束帶 關進三坪大的房間毒打電擊 未讀一人跳樓輕生 一人休克死亡一人被未讀致死死了三個人嘛 對不對我告訴你不只今年八月發現還有一個也被他們打死只是抓進去"},{"start":113.496,"end":131.466,"text":"沒幾分鐘就被打死了 拖出去了丟了今年八月才找到到底是不是關六十一個人 你知道嗎可能不是耶是不是殺四個人 你知道嗎可能不是耶可不可惡 惡行重不重大請問副秘書長慘絕人寰啦慘絕人寰啦"},{"start":140.786,"end":168.344,"text":"來 我想請教一下那你知道最後被判什麼 祖賢被判什麼刑依這上面那個記錄那個祖賢王玉潔是26年那其他那個三人是無期徒刑是啊我直接告訴副秘書長關六十一個 殺死四個人極盡虐待 虐殺"},{"start":170.356,"end":198.266,"text":"就是無期徒刑我不知道還有什麼案件可以判死刑我不知道還有什麼案件可以判死刑你剛都講了你也沒聽過關61個人這麼嚴重的事情過不罰所得多少錢你知道嗎查出來的沒查出來不講4億元關61個殺4個人不罰所得4億元結果是無期徒刑"},{"start":200.455,"end":215.518,"text":"我在上一個質詢 我們的法務部長他還跟我講 台灣沒有實質廢死啊是啦 還是有判死刑的啦還是有判死刑的啦但是你知道判死刑的比例變高還變低 請問副秘書長變高還變低應該很清楚吧來沒關係 我告訴你來 我跟你講過去20年齁 平均150位殺人犯"},{"start":231.018,"end":255.632,"text":"大概判死刑的比例大概是這個百分之二2000年到2015年平均每年有3.25位三審判死3.25位三審判死到2015年2016年民進黨執政之後你知道平均有多少人三審判死嗎每年多少人三審判死嗎平均0.33人"},{"start":263.086,"end":286.218,"text":"0.33每年三省判死人数减少九成而且抱歉大法官的宪判八号出来之后一个都没有三省的一个都没有没错吧可能还有诉讼时间因为才去年的事情嘛对不对我直接跟你讲会更低比0.33还低你相不相信"},{"start":288.032,"end":315.22,"text":"因為大法官已經加了八道經索啊大幅提高判處死刑的門檻這不叫實質廢死 什麼叫實質廢死這就是實質廢死這就是今天司法院交出來的最偉大的成績單大法官叫最偉大成績單 實質廢死我對那台版柬埔寨在案我看了就是看一次痛心一次"},{"start":316.38,"end":335.435,"text":"我尤其記得印象很深刻裡面的那位母親她在被虐殺之前臨死之前的遺言是請她同樣被關的受害人說她可能沒辦法活著出去如果她能活著出去拜託她告訴她兒子媽媽對不起你沒辦法陪你到最後你聽了心不心酸啊然後被後來獲救這幾十個人"},{"start":347.469,"end":355.435,"text":"他們被受訪的時候他們說他們真的以為他們沒辦法活著走出來啦要不是被破獲可能全部要死在裡面無期徒刑耶沒有一個判死現在民進黨還跟我們凹沒有實質廢死這不叫實質廢死請問什麼叫實質廢死我再請教副秘書長"},{"start":376.499,"end":403.34,"text":"诈骗手法不断翻新嘛已经变成我们今天国耻了啦也是全民最大的威胁嘛没错吧副秘书长诈欺案件确实一直在成长很多人甚至家庭失和甚至自责轻生还有一个就是我刚前面讲的还有被抓起来凌虐"},{"start":405.831,"end":426.761,"text":"打死的都有現在台灣最大的一個安全的威脅就是詐騙集團那麼我們政府在2014年訂了339條知事的加重詐欺罪科署一年到七年有期徒刑並科一百萬元以下罰金而且處罰未稅犯"},{"start":429.178,"end":455.646,"text":"然後2023年在修正刑法的部分條文然後將身為詐騙也納入所謂的加重詐欺罪那2024年完成立法的詐欺犯罪危害防治條例也加重刑責對詐騙集團最重可判處12年有期徒刑可得併科新台幣3億元以下罰金立法院是通過修法啦希望加重處罰"},{"start":457.273,"end":474.811,"text":"罪行來抑制詐騙的橫行那檢察官起訴時也多半有考量加重刑事的室友給予適當的量刑但是我想請教一下刑法修正後這麼多刑法修正後我們的法院對詐騙集團的判刑有加重嗎"},{"start":475.816,"end":491.7,"text":"那個報委員我們現在那個手上那個數字齁這個確實法院就加重詐欺的量刑有加重那個趨勢從那個判超過那個我問一個啊 判達三年以上的比例大概多少三年以上的"},{"start":493.629,"end":511.085,"text":"我告訴你啦各級法院2019到2024年對於適用加重詐欺罪的80萬罪次判決中三年以上有期徒刑者是1637罪次佔總件數的千分之二"},{"start":514.028,"end":533.063,"text":"全台一年詐騙財損超過千億但是只有零點二千分之二千分之二一千個詐騙犯中可能只有兩個被判刑超過三年我們審計部報告就指出雖然政府加重修法加重詐騙刑度"},{"start":534.485,"end":543.903,"text":"那麼外界一直在對於法院判刑過低的問題有一些很大的疑慮那我想請教今天司法院怎麼去看這件事情"},{"start":545.509,"end":571.198,"text":"報告委員就是說我們從數字上來看的話就是這幾年就是確實那個量刑已經有那個加重那個趨勢了那從那個數字上就是為什麼呈現這麼低當然就是說因為他會那個起訴的詐欺他是一個大那個集團那大部分被抓到的事實上都是在那個階層分工中比較低階的就是像這種那個車手就是比較低階那個角色"},{"start":571.638,"end":577.36,"text":"我要這樣講實際上2019到2023年8月間台灣有超過58000名通緝犯未歸案有8000多人有出境紀錄還有1637人是涉及詐騙案件潛逃國外"},{"start":588.283,"end":617.583,"text":"那為了要補這個治安漏洞跟防止詐欺犯的潛逃我在去年就提出了刑法跟刑事訴訟法的修正案來徵定棄保潛逃罪以及賦予法院可以主動通知主管機關協助註銷被告護照旅行文件那另外刑法的徵定的這個棄保潛逃罪在今年5月三讀通過那刑事訴訟法的162條之二的修正也在上週五完成了三讀"},{"start":618.443,"end":644.984,"text":"那这两项实际上都是今天立法院努力想要去防堵诈骗的一个努力的过程跟结果但我这边还是要拜托为什么今天从台版柬埔寨案开始讲起因为真的法院当然秘书长你是行政幕僚法官你也管不了可是今天全台湾人民对于诈骗那种所谓的痛恨的程度"},{"start":646.004,"end":670.797,"text":"我真的在這邊呼籲我們的法官們好好去想一想我們在台灣很多的一些不管是司法跟我們的一些刑事的一個法律都是過度保障加害人那造成被害人惶惶不可終日好好安居樂業都不可得這是我給司法院的一個期許以上 謝謝謝謝指教好 謝謝羅委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:27:53.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:27:54.725000+08:00","text":"有請王副秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-22T09:27:54.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:27:54.905000+08:00","text":"有請秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王副秘書長梅英","start":"2025-10-22T09:27:54.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:27:54.985000+08:00","text":"委員早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:27:55.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:27:57.487000+08:00","text":"副秘書長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:27:57.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:27:57.968000+08:00","text":"我剛剛聽你的報告裡面也特別強調憲法法庭第8號判決，對不對？是。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:27:58.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:27:59.789000+08:00","text":"來搭配所謂的調高死刑門檻司法院相應的作為，對不對？是。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:27:59.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:28:26.677000+08:00","text":"好，我想要請教你，你有聽過2022年的臺版柬埔寨案嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:28:26.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:28:27.958000+08:00","text":"臺版柬埔寨案有聽過嘛？是。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:28:27.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:28:34.582000+08:00","text":"我想請教，主嫌「藍道」這些人總共關押、綁架了多少人？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王副秘書長梅英","start":"2025-10-22T09:28:36.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:28:38.684000+08:00","text":"報告委員，那個案情我沒有詳細研究。61個人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:28:41.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:28:50.523000+08:00","text":"副秘書長，我想請教，就您在司法界這麼多年的實務經驗，你有沒有看到哪一個案子可以綁架61個人的？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"王副秘書長梅英","start":"2025-10-22T09:28:52.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:28:53.865000+08:00","text":"這個算是案情嚴重的案件。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:28:55.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:28:55.666000+08:00","text":"應該從來沒有過吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:28:56.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:28:59.549000+08:00","text":"應該是被綁、被關最多人的刑事案件吧？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:00.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:01.650000+08:00","text":"至少在你的職業生涯裡面應該沒見過吧？是。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:02.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:06.413000+08:00","text":"你知道裡面多少人被他們殺掉、死了多少人？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:09.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:11.816000+08:00","text":"死了多少人，你知道嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:11.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:33.522000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，剛開始以為死3個人，他們這些人被搜身搶劫、塞上毛巾、上手銬、腳綁束帶、關進3坪大的房間，遭到毒打、電擊、餵毒，導致1人跳樓輕生、1人休克死亡、1人被餵毒致死，死了3個人，對不對？","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:33.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:34.162000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，不只！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:35.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:47.718000+08:00","text":"今年8月發現還有1個人也被他們打死，只是抓進去沒幾分鐘就被打死，拖出去丟了，今年8月才找到。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:50.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:52.201000+08:00","text":"到底是不是關61個人，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:52.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:52.841000+08:00","text":"可能不是耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:54.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:56.083000+08:00","text":"是不是殺4個人，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:56.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:56.724000+08:00","text":"可能不是耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:58.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:59.425000+08:00","text":"請問副秘書長，可不可惡？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:29:59.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:29:59.985000+08:00","text":"惡行重不重大？……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:30:01.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:30:01.446000+08:00","text":"慘絕人寰啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:30:10.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:30:15.109000+08:00","text":"來，我想請教一下，你知道最後主嫌被判什麼刑嗎？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"王副秘書長梅英","start":"2025-10-22T09:30:17.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:30:26.556000+08:00","text":"依照這上面的紀錄，主嫌王昱傑是26年，其他3個人是無期徒刑。是啊！","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:30:29.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:30:45.418000+08:00","text":"我直接告訴副秘書長，關61個人、殺死4個人，極盡虐待、虐殺就是被判無期徒刑，我不知道還有什麼案件可以判死刑耶！","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:30:50.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:30:53.981000+08:00","text":"你剛剛都講了，你也沒有聽過有關61個人這麼嚴重的事情啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:30:55.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:30:57.702000+08:00","text":"你知道不法所得是多少錢嗎？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:30:57.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:30:59.063000+08:00","text":"這還是有查出來的，我們不講沒查出來的喔！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:31:01.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:31:08.246000+08:00","text":"金額是4億元，關61個、殺4個人，不法所得4億元，結果是判無期徒刑。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:31:10.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:31:17.176000+08:00","text":"我上一次質詢我們的法務部長，他還跟我講臺灣沒有實質廢死，是啦！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:31:17.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:31:23.538000+08:00","text":"還是有判死刑的，但是判死刑的比率變高還變低？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:31:23.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:31:23.878000+08:00","text":"請問副秘書長，是變高還是變低？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:31:23.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:31:23.998000+08:00","text":"你應該很清楚嘛！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:31:24.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:32:03.471000+08:00","text":"來，沒關係，我告訴你，過去20年平均150位殺人犯，判死刑的比率大概是2%，從2000年到2015年平均每年有3.25位三審判死，在2016年民進黨執政之後，你知道平均每年有多少人三審判死嗎？","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:32:03.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:32:15.568000+08:00","text":"只有0.33人，每年三審判死的人數減少九成。","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:32:16.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:32:17.989000+08:00","text":"而且很抱歉！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:32:20.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:32:26.513000+08:00","text":"在大法官的憲判字第8號判決出來之後，三審判死的人連一個都沒有，沒錯吧？","quality":0.355},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:32:28.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:32:31.015000+08:00","text":"可能還有案子是在訴訟當中，因為這是才去年的事情，對不對？是。","quality":0.423},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:32:31.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:32:36.198000+08:00","text":"我直接跟你講，以後會更低，比0.33人還低，你相不相信？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:32:38.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:32:48.755000+08:00","text":"因為大法官已經加了八道金鎖，大幅提高判處死刑的門檻，這不叫實質廢死，什麼叫實質廢死？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:32:50.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:32:58.178000+08:00","text":"這就是實質廢死，這就是今天司法院交出來的最偉大的成績單，是大法官交出來的最偉大的成績單，就是實質廢死。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:33:01.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:33:24.234000+08:00","text":"我對臺版柬埔寨案是看一次就痛心一次，尤其讓我印象很深刻的是裡面有一位母親在被虐殺、臨死之前留下遺言，跟另一個同樣被關的受害人說，因為自己可能沒辦法活著出去，如果她能活著出去，就拜託她告訴自己的兒子：媽媽對不起你，沒辦法陪你到最後。","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:33:24.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:33:24.814000+08:00","text":"你聽了會不會心酸？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:33:25.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:33:42.573000+08:00","text":"後來獲救的這幾十個人在受訪的時候說，他們真的以為他們沒辦法活著走出來，要不是被破獲了，可能全部都要死在裡面。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:33:42.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:33:45.015000+08:00","text":"結果只判無期徒刑，沒有一個人被判死，現在民進黨還跟我們拗，說沒有實質廢死，這不叫實質廢死，請問什麼叫實質廢死？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:33:45.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:34:17.207000+08:00","text":"我再請教副秘書長，詐騙手法不斷翻新，已經變成我們的國恥，也是全民最大的威脅，沒錯吧？","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"王副秘書長梅英","start":"2025-10-22T09:34:20.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:34:22.311000+08:00","text":"詐欺案件確實一直在成長。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:34:24.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:34:36.972000+08:00","text":"很多人家庭失和，甚至自責輕生，還有就是像我剛剛前面講的，還有人被抓起來凌虐、打死，這些都有發生。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:34:38.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:34:56.741000+08:00","text":"現在臺灣最大的一個安全威脅就是詐騙集團，我們政府在2014年定了第三百三十九條之四的加重詐欺罪，科處1年到7年有期徒刑，併科100萬元以下罰金，而且處罰未遂犯，對不對？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:34:59.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:35:21.164000+08:00","text":"然後2023年再修正刑法的部分條文，將深偽詐騙也納入所謂的加重詐欺罪，在2024年完成立法的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例也加重刑責，對詐騙集團最重可判處12年有期徒刑，得併科新臺幣3億元以下罰金。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:35:23.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:35:44.811000+08:00","text":"立法院是通過修法，希望加重處罰罪行來抑制詐騙的橫行，檢察官起訴時也多半有考量加重刑罰的事由，給予適當的量刑，但是我想請教一下，在修正了這麼多的刑法條文後，我們的法院對詐騙集團的判刑有加重嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王副秘書長梅英","start":"2025-10-22T09:35:46.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:35:56.372000+08:00","text":"報告委員，根據我們現在手上的數字，法院就加重詐欺的量刑確實有加重的趨勢，從判處超過……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:35:56.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:35:58.956000+08:00","text":"我問一個問題，判處3年以上的比例大概有多少？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"王副秘書長梅英","start":"2025-10-22T09:36:00.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:36:01.680000+08:00","text":"3年以上的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:36:03.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:36:21.065000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，各級法院從2019年到2024年在適用加重詐欺罪的80萬罪次判決中，判3年以上有期徒刑者是1,637罪次，占總件數的千分之二。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:36:24.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:36:36.678000+08:00","text":"全臺一年詐騙財損超過千億，但是只有千分之二、在1,000個詐騙犯中可能只有2個被判刑超過3年。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:36:37.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:36:53.883000+08:00","text":"我們審計部的報告就指出，雖然政府修法加重詐騙刑度，可是外界一直對於法院判刑過低的問題有很大的疑慮，我想請教今天司法院怎麼去看這件事情？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王副秘書長梅英","start":"2025-10-22T09:36:55.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:37:21.178000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們從數字上來看的話，在這幾年那個量刑確實已經有加重的趨勢了，至於呈現的數字為什麼這麼低，就是因為詐欺者是一個大集團，大部分被抓到的人在階層分工中其實都是比較低階的，像車手就是比較低階的角色……","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:37:21.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:37:56.575000+08:00","text":"我要這樣講，事實上，從2019年到2023年8月間，臺灣有超過5萬8,000名通緝犯未歸案，八千多人有出境紀錄，還有1,637人是涉及詐騙案件潛逃國外，為了要補這個治安漏洞跟防止詐欺犯的潛逃，我在去年就提出了刑法跟刑事訴訟法的修正案，增訂棄保潛逃罪及賦予法院可以主動通知主管機關協助註銷被告護照、旅行文件。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:37:57.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:38:22.875000+08:00","text":"另外，刑法增訂的棄保潛逃罪在今年5月三讀通過，刑事訴訟法第一百六十二條之二的修正也在上週五完成三讀，這兩項事實上都是立法院努力想要去防堵詐騙的過程跟結果，但是我在這邊還是要拜託，我為什麼今天從臺版柬埔寨案開始講起？","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2025-10-22T09:38:25.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:38:59.736000+08:00","text":"當然秘書長是行政幕僚，你也管不了法官，可是今天全臺灣人民對於詐騙痛恨的程度，我真的在這邊呼籲我們的法官們好好去想一想，在臺灣的司法有很多方面跟一些刑事的法律都是過度保障加害人，造成被害人惶惶不可終日，要好好安居樂業都不可得，這是我給司法院的一個期許，以上，謝謝。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"王副秘書長梅英","start":"2025-10-22T09:38:59.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:38:59.837000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝指教。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-22T09:39:00.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T09:39:00.797000+08:00","text":"謝謝羅委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-22T09:39:01.297000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T09:39:05.011286+08:00","text":"我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時27分）有請王副秘書長。"],["主席：有請秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["羅委員智強：副秘書長好。我剛剛聽你的報告裡面也特別強調憲法法庭第8號判決，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：來搭配所謂的調高死刑門檻司法院相應的作為，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：好，我想要請教你，你有聽過2022年的臺版柬埔寨案嗎？臺版柬埔寨案有聽過嘛？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教，主嫌「藍道」這些人總共關押、綁架了多少人？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，那個案情我沒有詳細研究。"],["羅委員智強：61個人。副秘書長，我想請教，就您在司法界這麼多年的實務經驗，你有沒有看到哪一個案子可以綁架61個人的？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個算是案情嚴重的案件。"],["羅委員智強：應該從來沒有過吧？應該是被綁、被關最多人的刑事案件吧？至少在你的職業生涯裡面應該沒見過吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：你知道裡面多少人被他們殺掉、死了多少人？死了多少人，你知道嗎？我告訴你，剛開始以為死3個人，他們這些人被搜身搶劫、塞上毛巾、上手銬、腳綁束帶、關進3坪大的房間，遭到毒打、電擊、餵毒，導致1人跳樓輕生、1人休克死亡、1人被餵毒致死，死了3個人，對不對？我告訴你，不只！今年8月發現還有1個人也被他們打死，只是抓進去沒幾分鐘就被打死，拖出去丟了，今年8月才找到。到底是不是關61個人，你知道嗎？可能不是耶！是不是殺4個人，你知道嗎？可能不是耶！請問副秘書長，可不可惡？惡行重不重大？"],["王副秘書長梅英：……"],["羅委員智強：慘絕人寰啦！來，我想請教一下，你知道最後主嫌被判什麼刑嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：依照這上面的紀錄，主嫌王昱傑是26年，其他3個人是無期徒刑。"],["羅委員智強：是啊！我直接告訴副秘書長，關61個人、殺死4個人，極盡虐待、虐殺就是被判無期徒刑，我不知道還有什麼案件可以判死刑耶！你剛剛都講了，你也沒有聽過有關61個人這麼嚴重的事情啊！你知道不法所得是多少錢嗎？這還是有查出來的，我們不講沒查出來的喔！金額是4億元，關61個、殺4個人，不法所得4億元，結果是判無期徒刑。我上一次質詢我們的法務部長，他還跟我講臺灣沒有實質廢死，是啦！還是有判死刑的，但是判死刑的比率變高還變低？請問副秘書長，是變高還是變低？你應該很清楚嘛！來，沒關係，我告訴你，過去20年平均150位殺人犯，判死刑的比率大概是2%，從2000年到2015年平均每年有3.25位三審判死，在2016年民進黨執政之後，你知道平均每年有多少人三審判死嗎？只有0.33人，每年三審判死的人數減少九成。而且很抱歉！在大法官的憲判字第8號判決出來之後，三審判死的人連一個都沒有，沒錯吧？可能還有案子是在訴訟當中，因為這是才去年的事情，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：我直接跟你講，以後會更低，比0.33人還低，你相不相信？因為大法官已經加了八道金鎖，大幅提高判處死刑的門檻，這不叫實質廢死，什麼叫實質廢死？這就是實質廢死，這就是今天司法院交出來的最偉大的成績單，是大法官交出來的最偉大的成績單，就是實質廢死。我對臺版柬埔寨案是看一次就痛心一次，尤其讓我印象很深刻的是裡面有一位母親在被虐殺、臨死之前留下遺言，跟另一個同樣被關的受害人說，因為自己可能沒辦法活著出去，如果她能活著出去，就拜託她告訴自己的兒子：媽媽對不起你，沒辦法陪你到最後。你聽了會不會心酸？後來獲救的這幾十個人在受訪的時候說，他們真的以為他們沒辦法活著走出來，要不是被破獲了，可能全部都要死在裡面。結果只判無期徒刑，沒有一個人被判死，現在民進黨還跟我們拗，說沒有實質廢死，這不叫實質廢死，請問什麼叫實質廢死？我再請教副秘書長，詐騙手法不斷翻新，已經變成我們的國恥，也是全民最大的威脅，沒錯吧？"],["王副秘書長梅英：詐欺案件確實一直在成長。"],["羅委員智強：很多人家庭失和，甚至自責輕生，還有就是像我剛剛前面講的，還有人被抓起來凌虐、打死，這些都有發生。現在臺灣最大的一個安全威脅就是詐騙集團，我們政府在2014年定了第三百三十九條之四的加重詐欺罪，科處1年到7年有期徒刑，併科100萬元以下罰金，而且處罰未遂犯，對不對？然後2023年再修正刑法的部分條文，將深偽詐騙也納入所謂的加重詐欺罪，在2024年完成立法的詐欺犯罪危害防制條例也加重刑責，對詐騙集團最重可判處12年有期徒刑，得併科新臺幣3億元以下罰金。立法院是通過修法，希望加重處罰罪行來抑制詐騙的橫行，檢察官起訴時也多半有考量加重刑罰的事由，給予適當的量刑，但是我想請教一下，在修正了這麼多的刑法條文後，我們的法院對詐騙集團的判刑有加重嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，根據我們現在手上的數字，法院就加重詐欺的量刑確實有加重的趨勢，從判處超過……"],["羅委員智強：我問一個問題，判處3年以上的比例大概有多少？"],["王副秘書長梅英：3年以上的……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，各級法院從2019年到2024年在適用加重詐欺罪的80萬罪次判決中，判3年以上有期徒刑者是1,637罪次，占總件數的千分之二。全臺一年詐騙財損超過千億，但是只有千分之二、在1,000個詐騙犯中可能只有2個被判刑超過3年。我們審計部的報告就指出，雖然政府修法加重詐騙刑度，可是外界一直對於法院判刑過低的問題有很大的疑慮，我想請教今天司法院怎麼去看這件事情？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，我們從數字上來看的話，在這幾年那個量刑確實已經有加重的趨勢了，至於呈現的數字為什麼這麼低，就是因為詐欺者是一個大集團，大部分被抓到的人在階層分工中其實都是比較低階的，像車手就是比較低階的角色……"],["羅委員智強：我要這樣講，事實上，從2019年到2023年8月間，臺灣有超過5萬8,000名通緝犯未歸案，八千多人有出境紀錄，還有1,637人是涉及詐騙案件潛逃國外，為了要補這個治安漏洞跟防止詐欺犯的潛逃，我在去年就提出了刑法跟刑事訴訟法的修正案，增訂棄保潛逃罪及賦予法院可以主動通知主管機關協助註銷被告護照、旅行文件。另外，刑法增訂的棄保潛逃罪在今年5月三讀通過，刑事訴訟法第一百六十二條之二的修正也在上週五完成三讀，這兩項事實上都是立法院努力想要去防堵詐騙的過程跟結果，但是我在這邊還是要拜託，我為什麼今天從臺版柬埔寨案開始講起？當然秘書長是行政幕僚，你也管不了法官，可是今天全臺灣人民對於詐騙痛恨的程度，我真的在這邊呼籲我們的法官們好好去想一想，在臺灣的司法有很多方面跟一些刑事的法律都是過度保障加害人，造成被害人惶惶不可終日，要好好安居樂業都不可得，這是我給司法院的一個期許，以上，謝謝。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好，謝謝指教。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-4","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","羅智強","吳宗憲","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","林倩綺","張啓楷","林國成","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","傅崐萁"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148801_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}