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在場的委員先進列席的政府局長 市長 官員會長工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請主席長跟財政部阮次長請主席長還有我們阮次長委員好主席長好 次長好有沒有覺得今天冷清清的是因為天氣冷還是因為下雨 您覺得呢還是因為今天我們討論的是財化法"},{"start":38.356,"end":64.011,"text":"主席長你覺得咧 如果今天我們討論一萬元怎麼領 跟誰領 怎麼花 政府還要補貼你覺得會不會情況不一樣好像不好答齁其實是這樣子啦 就像公司啊員工只要有拿到薪水 他其實他不會問他不會去關心說公司的財務啊 會計啊 怎麼調度他只關心我薪水是按時發 是不是這樣子"},{"start":65.843,"end":93.963,"text":"所以市長昨天財政部是不是召開各地方的財政主管來討論財政收支劃分法熱不熱烈非常熱烈非常熱烈都是管財務的人都是財政系統但是一般不是財政系統不曉得你們在搞什麼來我先問一下地方補助款不低於去年還創新高這新聞財政部去年今年昨天看的那個會是不是昨天的新聞"},{"start":94.926,"end":100.641,"text":"新聞照片你們要提行政院門的裁判法修法對不對是那這邊還提到說"},{"start":102.455,"end":126.164,"text":"保障統籌分配稅款跟一般應付款不低於今年的規模就是7177億但是要怎麼樣滿足基準的財政收支短差納入財政的努力機制就是貢獻機制還要考量到基本建設需求到時分配的方法會調整回來地方政府多表認同調整回來是他們的錢會變多還變少"},{"start":128.305,"end":142.035,"text":"有些多當然有些會多的當然是認同少的也認同因為指標一動以後一定是因為那個是公示我們來跟兩位探討一下這是憲法裡面中央跟地方的事權劃分"},{"start":143.736,"end":172.979,"text":"兩位主席長跟次長是不是同意先討論錢怎麼分配之前先討論市權怎麼分對不對同意嗎同意就點頭或大聲說大聲說我比較聽得到是好我們來看憲法第107到110第107說哪些是中央做的對不對108 109哪些是談到是省可以交給省做或省可以交給縣市做對不對然後110是談什麼地方政府的縣市級的要做是這些是不是這樣子是"},{"start":173.379,"end":202.285,"text":"好 那請要一下農林農林這個是屬於中央可以交給地方去執行剛剛傳出台中疑似發現非洲豬瘟農業部緊急召開記者會但是媒體有在報導說因為今年這個農業部宣導防疫的經費被大砍所以會不會因此而在防疫宣導上有漏洞那請問一下像防疫這個事情是屬於中央的還是屬於地方的"},{"start":204.574,"end":224.068,"text":"因為中央和地方都有啦都有那中央的預算被砍了那地方那些出現漏洞那誰要負責很難講對不對不好講嘛現在還沒有調查清楚往下看來我們看看那未來如果我們現在的社福支出我們有什麼"},{"start":225.373,"end":252.794,"text":"有福利對不對我們這裡看到的你這裡寫我們福利照顧跟社會安全340億對不對這你在報告裡面寫的這是關於115年度一般性補助款2500億當中福利照顧跟社會安全佔了340億照顧協助弱勢保留的社會福利經費406億我請教一下這可能要請教主席長哪些是這些福利照顧社會"},{"start":254.841,"end":275.571,"text":"安全是中央還是地方法有明文嗎有 這些都是屬於地方的只是都是由中央在補助等等 中央政府支出的勞保補助 健保補助是法有明文是中央出對不對對 這個部分還必須透過修法因為以前這個部分是由政府在支出"},{"start":276.311,"end":303.498,"text":"過去是政府支出但是本來屬於地方的權責因為政府的財政中央較好所以在條文上就有指明是中央出的中央要出這個原來是省政府在出本來是省政府出的後來交給中央政府出必須要有條文明定的才是中央出如果沒有明定的那是要還是中央出嗎"},{"start":304.951,"end":333.695,"text":"對所以等於是說有條文明定是有勞保健保是這必須要透過修法才有辦法把事權移轉但是現在如果沒有那個主席長你太急了啦是是我是說沒有修法你當然想把這個勞保跟健保交給地方嘛是但是縱使如此該地方出的如果條文有定是中央出中央還是會出除非修法是但是如果法沒有明定的是不是就應該地方出我要問你這一句啦"},{"start":334.841,"end":356.649,"text":"沒有法律明確的是不是該地方的就地方出地方制度法也有明確的規定所以我們現在的一般性補助和計畫性補助都是地方應該要出的所以從憲法的法理推論該地方執行的業務除非像勞保跟健保有法有明文規定我們中央才出法沒有明文的都應該地方出"},{"start":357.149,"end":374.403,"text":"是不是這樣子是你太急了你一直想說連勞保健保的你都覺得應該是地方出除非修法當然修法就照法律是沒有修法的我們沒有定在法律裡面的就是照這個原理好那我們再問一下來現在健保保費法有明定"},{"start":375.359,"end":398.755,"text":"政府負擔的都是由中央政府出對不對民眾致富的地方政府是不是幫低收入戶出了 有沒有有嘛 有地方政府出嘛70歲的長者有地方政府民眾的致富而地方政府扛起來了嘛那一天我才問你嘛那如果地方政府他連民眾致富的都有能力致富那為什麼政府致富的要中央來付呢"},{"start":399.69,"end":428.805,"text":"是不是這個意思所以是不是你未來覺得說應該是中央跟地方共同討論原定政府負擔的怎麼樣大家負擔去拆分 是不是這樣子所以健保的保費你是傾向未來修法要把這個部分考慮進來現在連地方政府連民眾自負額都有辦法幫忙付那政府應付額就不應該都是由中央政府出是這樣嗎 好 往下看好 那麼剛剛我們看到了來 退伏經費也是如此"},{"start":429.585,"end":457.014,"text":"現在退伍經費一個是退伍基金嘛中央政府有沒有負擔有有沒有 有負擔嘛那請問中央的公教人員是中央出對不對那請問地方公教人員的是誰出依規定應該地方政府來出依規定是出 實況是誰出因為它增加實況是誰代出它增加的部分是中央政府在出是嘛所以你看這個"},{"start":459.178,"end":471.379,"text":"零用錢都發下去了 帳單還是老爸老媽付對不對 子女都說啊 零用錢太少了我沒有辦法生活 多給零用錢可是呢 他外面的開銷的帳單還是老爸老媽付 是不是這樣子"},{"start":472.315,"end":499.237,"text":"那在這種情況之下我們要怎麼調所以目前我們連公教的年金除了退伏基金之外是中央政府幫忙出而且中央政府還出到了地方的公教人員那未來有沒有可能這個部分也要分清楚說明白按照這個財力跟他們的負擔去調整也是好往下看來好剛剛講到那個李昆城委員提到了"},{"start":500.58,"end":522.053,"text":"去年修了財化法 今年一算糟糕了 有345億分配不出去其中將近99.8%是屬於離島的那請問這些錢345億 是不是本來要用在地方是本來要用在地方的錢 要給地方的那是不是用在地方的身上誰來打"},{"start":525.326,"end":553.988,"text":"跟委員報告這是不是本來要分配給地方的錢這是因為公事分配不出去的我知道 本來要分配給他但是因為制度上的缺陷分配不出去那理論上這些錢要用在地方的人民身上是不是這樣因為他這個是本來是地方的錢對 所以用在地方的人民身上不包括這邊所說的福利照顧跟社會安全主席長包括包括嘛所以如果這筆錢用在人民的福利照顧跟社會安全你是支持的吧 主席長"},{"start":557.725,"end":586.981,"text":"怎麼沒有回答呢這是要給地方的錢地方本來就要做什麼社會福利照顧跟社會安全如果拿去做福利照顧跟社會安全符不符合這筆錢他的性質是不是對嘛 符合他的性質嘛好 那往下看所以說我們來看一下假如說國民老年 老人年金對不對這是人民的福利照顧跟社會安全嘛是不是應該在我們"},{"start":587.845,"end":614.434,"text":"憲法裡面中央跟地方分權這是地方政府的權責嘛 治權嘛 對不對所以這筆錢如果用在這個部分有沒有符合他的原理 魯記長這屬於地方應該負擔的話地方應該負擔的如果這筆錢用在老人年金國民的國民年金有人主張說讓他月領八千如果扣除牌幅 扣除最低的居住限制不足的補到八千"},{"start":615.458,"end":643.8,"text":"主計總處可不可以幫忙算一下需要多少錢可不可以去算大概多少大概900億900億全年要900億對不對地方他要去付這900億好往下看那如果說產後照顧津貼有什麼好處可以坐月子兩老四老就可以省事或者說家人照顧可以減輕負擔像這種坐月子的錢算不算是人民的福利照顧"},{"start":645.276,"end":673.599,"text":"是 那如果有人要發這筆錢是不是也要用這一筆地方給地方的錢按照中央和地方一個分權是地方的人民就有地方好 那最後一個因為時間的關係勞退勞工的勞退是不是屬於社會安全如果我們對勞工勞退自體我們政府給一趴的獎勵你覺得這筆錢是不是也是地方來支應是合理的"},{"start":675.905,"end":696.267,"text":"是不是合理的所以說現在財政收支劃分法地方政府的負擔能力我們要先把市權先分出來再去討論中央跟地方應分配的如果地方政府獲得更多的分配款是不是一些屬於地方做的事情地方政府要全額負擔你知不支持這樣的一個概念"},{"start":697.827,"end":715.659,"text":"好最後呢我們的結論就是這樣請主席總署針對地方政府法定應辦理事項統計現在統計出現在個別目前是中央跟地方分別負擔的實際數額原來是地方做的結果現在有中央跟地方來分別負擔把這個統計出來可以嗎"},{"start":717.911,"end":739.413,"text":"是國化會目前在進行所以這個市權的部分是國化會在負責不是 我不是說市權我是說現在去統計啦你是負責統計就好了嘛但是也必須要國化會去做分配之後我才能夠協助上面要有人告訴你哪些是中央還是地方你才能去做統計那你沒關係你把上面的誰做的先不掛你先統計出來好不好"},{"start":740.354,"end":765.061,"text":"這些政事別哪些是當中多少中央出多少地方出你算出來我們來看看檢討上面的事權是歸誰好不好這樣懂了嗎可以喔最後請財政部針對現行財政收支劃分法地方政府以貨配的新增額度估算它對於上面這些地方應該做的事情的負擔能力可以嗎這樣了解喔夠清楚吧我們當然會配合委員的要求來做報告"},{"start":766.181,"end":781.91,"text":"但是有一点我是不是可以补充说明一下因为这个345亿毕竟还是地方的财源所以将来假定他的分配公司修正之后那么分配给地方以后地方政府是可以统收统资的"},{"start":782.29,"end":811.783,"text":"当然但是法是立法院定的如果立法院通过立法要求把这345亿现在分配不出去的直接用在人民的身上而且是属于地方政府的福利照顾和社会安全支出那也是立法院的事情对不对就跟着立法院通过的法做就对了是不是这样所以如果有这样的法律规定那当然就可以好谢谢好我们谢谢宗家B委员接下来我们请林世民召委那在林世民召委这个职期"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:45:56.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:01.692000+08:00","text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:02.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:05.413000+08:00","text":"有請主計長跟財政部阮次長。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:05.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:05.653000+08:00","text":"好，請主計長還有阮次長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:05.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:05.673000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:05.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:06.273000+08:00","text":"主計長好、次長好。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:06.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:06.273000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:06.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:06.794000+08:00","text":"有沒有覺得今天冷清清的啊？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:06.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:07.114000+08:00","text":"是因為天氣冷還是因為下雨，你覺得呢？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:07.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:23.836000+08:00","text":"還是因為今天我們討論的是財劃法，主計長，你覺得呢？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:24.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:34.102000+08:00","text":"如果今天我們討論的是一萬元怎麼領、跟誰領、怎麼花、政府還有補貼，你覺得情況會不會不一樣？","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:34.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:34.602000+08:00","text":"好像不好答喔。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:35.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:48.991000+08:00","text":"其實是這樣子，就像公司，員工只要有拿到薪水，其他的他不會問，他不會去關心公司的財務、會計怎麼調度，他只關心我的薪水是不是按時發，是不是這樣子？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:46:50.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:46:59.789000+08:00","text":"所以，次長，昨天財政部是不是召集各地方的財政主管來討論財政收支劃分法，熱不熱烈？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:01.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:01.510000+08:00","text":"非常熱烈。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:01.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:02.211000+08:00","text":"非常熱烈？是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:02.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:03.692000+08:00","text":"都是管財務的人嘛？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:05.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:07.055000+08:00","text":"對，都管財務的，都是財政系統的。對啊！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:07.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:10.657000+08:00","text":"但是一般不是財政系統的，不曉得你們在搞什麼啦。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:10.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:25.160000+08:00","text":"來，我先問一下，地方補助款不低於去年還創新高，這是新聞，財政部昨天開的那個會是不是……這是昨天的新聞照片，你們要提行政院版的財劃法修法，對不對？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:25.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:49.264000+08:00","text":"報導中還提到說，保障統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款不低於今年的規模，就是7,177億，但是要滿足基準財政收支短差、納入財政努力機制，也就是貢獻機制，還要考量到基本建設需求，到時分配的方法會調整回來，地方政府多表認同。對。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:50.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:51.144000+08:00","text":"調整回來是他們的錢會變多還是變少？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:53.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:55.947000+08:00","text":"有些多，當然有些會減少。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:55.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:56.868000+08:00","text":"多的當然是認同啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:57.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:47:57.809000+08:00","text":"少的也認同啊？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:47:58.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:48:01.391000+08:00","text":"因為指標一動以後一定是這樣，因為那個是公式嘛。好。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:48:02.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:48:15.521000+08:00","text":"來，我們跟兩位探討一下，這是憲法裡面中央跟地方的事權劃分，主計長跟次長是不是同意在討論錢怎麼分配之前，先討論事權怎麼分，對不對？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:48:15.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:48:15.682000+08:00","text":"同意嘛？是。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:48:16.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:48:19.444000+08:00","text":"同意就點頭或大聲說，大聲說我比較聽得到。是。是。是喔？是。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:48:19.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:48:26.990000+08:00","text":"好，我們來看憲法第一百零七條到第一百十條，第一百零七條說哪些是中央做的，對不對？對。","quality":0.568},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:48:26.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:48:32.234000+08:00","text":"第一百零八條、第一百零九條就談到哪些是可以交給省做或省可以交給縣市做，對不對？對。","quality":0.568},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:48:32.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:48:37.959000+08:00","text":"然後第一百十條是談到地方政府也就是縣市級的要做的是這些，是不是這樣子？是。是。","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:48:38.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:48:43.740000+08:00","text":"好，那我請教一下，農林這部分是屬於中央可以交給地方去執行。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:48:45.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:01.524000+08:00","text":"剛剛傳出臺中疑似發現非洲豬瘟，農業部緊急召開記者會，但是媒體有在報導說，因為今年農業部宣導防疫的經費被大砍，所以會不會因此而在防疫宣導上有漏洞。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:02.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:07.265000+08:00","text":"請問一下，像防疫這個事情是屬於中央的還是屬於地方的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:10.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:12.216000+08:00","text":"中央和地方都有啦。都有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:12.216000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:14.237000+08:00","text":"是，但是因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:14.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:20.181000+08:00","text":"中央的預算被砍了，然後地方那邊出現漏洞，那誰要負責？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:20.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:21.182000+08:00","text":"很難講，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:21.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:21.743000+08:00","text":"不好講嘛。是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:22.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:23.264000+08:00","text":"現在還沒有調查清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:23.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:32.375000+08:00","text":"往下看，來，我們看一看，我們現在的社福支出有福利，對不對？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:32.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:38.259000+08:00","text":"我們看到你的報告裡寫的，福利照顧跟社會安全340億，對不對？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:38.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:49:51.769000+08:00","text":"這你的報告裡面寫的嘛，這是關於115年度一般性補助款2,500億當中，福利照顧跟社會安全占了340億，為照顧、協助弱勢所保留的社會福利經費406億。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:49:51.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:04.523000+08:00","text":"我請教一下，這可能要請教主計長，福利照顧、社會安全是中央還是地方負責，法有明文嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:04.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:08.765000+08:00","text":"有，這些都是屬於地方的，只是都是由中央補助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:09.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:15.749000+08:00","text":"等等，中央政府支出的勞保補助、健保補助是法有明文由中央出，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:15.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:20.551000+08:00","text":"對，這個部分還必須透過修法，因為以前這個部分是省政府在支出，後來……","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:21.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:33.574000+08:00","text":"就是過去是中央政府支出，但是本來是屬於地方的權責，因為中央的財政較好，所以在條文上有指明是中央出的中央就要出嘛！","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:34.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:35.995000+08:00","text":"這個原來是省政府在出，後來移轉……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:37.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:41.596000+08:00","text":"本來是省政府出的，後來交給中央政府出。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:41.596000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:42.936000+08:00","text":"精省之後交給政府，所以這個部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:42.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:48.498000+08:00","text":"必須要有條文明定的才是中央出，如果沒有明定的，那還是中央出嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:49.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:50:58.819000+08:00","text":"對，等於條文有明定的有勞保、健保，這必須要透過修法才有辦法把事權移轉，但是現在如果沒有……","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:50:59.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:51:01.160000+08:00","text":"主計長，你太急了啦！是、是。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:51:01.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:51:06.245000+08:00","text":"我是說，沒有修法……你當然想把勞保跟健保交給地方嘛！是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:51:06.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:51:14.411000+08:00","text":"但是縱使如此，該地方出的，如果條文有定是中央出，中央還是會出，除非修法。是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:51:14.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:51:17.213000+08:00","text":"但是如果法沒有明定的，是不是就應該是地方出？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:51:17.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:51:18.675000+08:00","text":"我要問你的是這一句啦！是。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:51:19.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:51:21.762000+08:00","text":"沒有法律明定的，是不是該地方的就地方出？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:51:22.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:51:30.405000+08:00","text":"地方制度法也有明確的規定，所以我們現在的一般性補助和計畫型補助都是地方應該要出的。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:51:30.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:51:42.910000+08:00","text":"所以從憲法的法理推論，該地方執行的業務，除非像勞保跟健保是法有明文規定，我們中央才出，法沒有明文規定的都應該地方出，是不是這樣子？是。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:51:43.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:51:55.660000+08:00","text":"你太急了，你一直覺得連勞保、健保都應該是地方出，除非修法，當然修法就照法律，沒有修法的，沒有定在法律裡面的就是照這個原理。是。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:51:56.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:03.741000+08:00","text":"那我再問一下，現在健保保費的部分法有明定政府負擔的都是由中央政府出，對不對？是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:52:03.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:06.743000+08:00","text":"民眾自付的，地方政府是不是幫低收入戶出了？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:52:07.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:08.505000+08:00","text":"有沒有？有。有嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:52:08.505000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:09.505000+08:00","text":"這地方政府有出嘛！","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:52:08.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:23.735000+08:00","text":"還有中低收入戶70歲以上的長者由地方政府出，民眾的自付額地方政府扛起來了，所以那一天我才問你，如果地方政府連民眾自付的都有能力支付，那為什麼政府支付的要中央來付呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:52:24.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:25.110000+08:00","text":"是不是這個意思？是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:52:26.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:34.275000+08:00","text":"所以你覺得未來是不是應該由中央跟地方共同討論，原定政府負擔的部分大家怎麼樣互相去拆分，是不是這樣子？是。","quality":0.729},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:52:35.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:47.542000+08:00","text":"所以健保的保費你是傾向未來修法要把這個部分考慮進來，現在地方政府連民眾自付額都有辦法幫忙付，那政府應付額就不應該都是由中央政府出嘛！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:52:48.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:48.662000+08:00","text":"是這樣嘛！是。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:52:48.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:52:59.907000+08:00","text":"好，往下看，退撫經費也是如此，現在退撫經費一部分是由退撫基金負擔，中央政府有沒有負擔？有。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:00.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:01.247000+08:00","text":"有負擔嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:03.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:07.309000+08:00","text":"中央的公教人員是中央出，對不對？是。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:07.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:09.210000+08:00","text":"那請問地方公教人員的是誰出？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:10.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:11.571000+08:00","text":"依規定應該地方政府來出。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:13.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:13.752000+08:00","text":"那實況是誰在出？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:14.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:15.132000+08:00","text":"因為它增加的……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:15.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:16.232000+08:00","text":"實況是誰在出？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:17.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:20.714000+08:00","text":"它增加的部分是中央政府在出。是嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:21.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:28.566000+08:00","text":"所以你看，零用錢都發下去了，帳單還是老爸、老媽付，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:28.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:36.359000+08:00","text":"子女都說零用錢太少了，我沒辦法生活，多給零用錢，可是他在外面開銷的帳單還是老媽、老爸付，是不是這樣子？是。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:37.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:39.257000+08:00","text":"那在這種情況之下，我們要怎麼調？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:39.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:58.032000+08:00","text":"所以目前我們連公教的年金，除了退撫基金之外，是中央政府幫忙出，而且中央政府還負擔了地方公教人員的部分，那未來有沒有可能這個部分也要分清楚、說明白，按照財力跟他們的負擔去調整？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:58.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:53:59.073000+08:00","text":"這個也是。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:53:59.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:00.214000+08:00","text":"好，往下看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:02.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:24.951000+08:00","text":"剛剛李坤城委員提到，去年修了財劃法，今年一算，糟糕了，有345億分配不出去，其中將近99.8%是屬於離島的，請問345億這些錢本來是不是要給地方的錢？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:25.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:26.893000+08:00","text":"那是不是要用在地方的身上？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:27.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:27.033000+08:00","text":"誰來答？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:30.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:30.866000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:31.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:33.128000+08:00","text":"這是不是本來要分配給地方的錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:33.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:34.629000+08:00","text":"這是因為公式分配出去的，但是……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:34.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:43.175000+08:00","text":"我知道，本來要分配給它，但是因為制度上的缺陷分配不出去，那理論上這些錢要用在地方的人民身上，是不是這樣？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:43.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:45.737000+08:00","text":"因為這個本來就是地方的錢……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:45.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:50.281000+08:00","text":"對，所以用在地方人民身上，包不包括這邊所說的福利照顧跟社會安全？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:51.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:52.563000+08:00","text":"主計長。包括。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:52.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:52.823000+08:00","text":"包括嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:53.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:58.487000+08:00","text":"所以如果這筆錢用在人民的福利照顧跟社會安全，你是支持的吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:58.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:54:58.988000+08:00","text":"主計長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:54:58.988000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:55:02.725000+08:00","text":"這個我沒有辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:55:02.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:55:03.405000+08:00","text":"怎麼沒有辦法回答呢？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:55:04.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:55:16.913000+08:00","text":"這是要給地方的錢，地方本來就要做福利照顧跟社會安全，如果拿去做福利照顧跟社會安全，符不符合這筆錢它的性質？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:55:16.913000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:55:18.494000+08:00","text":"對，它是屬於地方負擔。對嘛！","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:55:18.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:55:19.274000+08:00","text":"符合它的性質嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:55:19.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:55:42.468000+08:00","text":"那我們來看一下，國民年金、老人年金，這是人民的福利照顧跟社會安全，依照我們憲法裡面中央跟地方的分權，這是地方政府的權責，所以這筆錢如果用在這個部分，有沒有符合它的原理？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:55:43.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:55:43.749000+08:00","text":"主計長。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:55:43.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:55:46.790000+08:00","text":"是屬於地方應該負擔的話。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:55:46.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:05.322000+08:00","text":"地方應該負擔的，如果這筆錢用在老人年金、國民的國民年金，有人主張讓他月領8,000，如果扣除排富、扣除最低居住期間限制，不足的補到8,000，主計總處可不可以幫忙算一下需要多少錢？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:56:05.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:08.844000+08:00","text":"可不可以去算大概多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:56:08.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:09.625000+08:00","text":"大概900億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:56:09.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:14.028000+08:00","text":"全年要900億，地方要付這900億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:56:14.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:19.132000+08:00","text":"往下看，如果有產後照顧津貼有什麼好處？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:56:19.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:30.276000+08:00","text":"可以坐月子，兩老、四老就可以省事，或者家人照顧時可以減輕負擔，像這種坐月子的錢算不算是人民的福利照顧？是。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:56:30.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:36.661000+08:00","text":"那如果有人要發這筆錢，是不是也要用這一筆給地方的錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:56:36.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:40.945000+08:00","text":"按照中央和地方的分權，是地方的人民就由地方……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:56:41.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:48.110000+08:00","text":"最後一個，因為時間的關係，勞工的勞退是不是屬於社會安全？是。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:56:49.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:56:58.579000+08:00","text":"如果對勞工勞退自提，政府給1%的獎勵，你覺得這筆錢是不是也是由地方來支應是合理的？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:00.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:03.528000+08:00","text":"是不是合理的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:03.528000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:04.528000+08:00","text":"這要看事權的分配……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:04.528000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:05.528000+08:00","text":"也是地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:05.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:08.974000+08:00","text":"最後我們看一下，所以依現在財政收支劃分法，地方政府的負擔能力為何？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:09.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:21.247000+08:00","text":"我們要先把事權分出來，再去討論中央跟地方應分配的，如果地方政府獲得更多的分配款，是不是一些屬於地方做的事情，地方政府就要全額負擔，你支不支持這樣的一個概念？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:21.247000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:22.827000+08:00","text":"原則上應該是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:22.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:36.216000+08:00","text":"好，最後我們的結論就是這樣，請主計總處針對地方政府法定應辦理事項，統計出目前中央跟地方分別負擔的實際數額。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:36.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:40.659000+08:00","text":"原來是地方做的，結果現在有中央跟地方來分別負擔，把這個統計出來可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:43.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:47.035000+08:00","text":"這個部分國發會目前在進行，所以這個事權的部分是國發會在負責。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:47.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:51.240000+08:00","text":"不是，我不是說事權，我是說現在去統計，你負責統計就好了。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:51.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:57:55.644000+08:00","text":"但是要國發會去做分配之後，我才能夠協助。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:57:56.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:00.069000+08:00","text":"要有人告訴你哪些是中央、哪些是地方，你才能去做統計？是的。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:00.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:04.393000+08:00","text":"沒關係，那誰做的先不管，你先統計出來，好不好？好。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:05.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:13.476000+08:00","text":"這些政事別當中，多少中央出、多少地方出，你算出來，我們來檢討看看上面的事權是歸誰，好不好？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:13.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:14.557000+08:00","text":"這樣懂了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:14.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:14.677000+08:00","text":"可以吧？好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:14.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:26.220000+08:00","text":"最後，請財政部針對現行財政收支劃分法地方政府已獲配的新增額度，估算它對於上面這些地方應該做的事情的負擔能力，可以嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:26.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:26.520000+08:00","text":"這樣了解吧？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:27.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:27.440000+08:00","text":"夠清楚吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:27.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:33.863000+08:00","text":"我們當然會配合委員的要求做報告，但是有一點我是不是可以補充說明一下？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:33.863000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:34.863000+08:00","text":"請說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:33.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:58:46.890000+08:00","text":"因為這345億畢竟還是地方的財源，所以假定將來分配公式修正，分配給地方以後，地方政府是可以統收統支的，所以我們可能沒辦法指定它……","quality":0.536},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:58:47.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:59:02.657000+08:00","text":"當然，但是法是立法院定的，如果立法院通過立法，要求把現在分配不出去的這345億直接用在人民的身上，而且是屬於地方政府的福利照顧和社會安全支出，那也是立法院的事情，對不對？","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:59:03.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:59:05.438000+08:00","text":"就跟著立法院通過的法做就對了，是不是這樣？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"阮次長清華","start":"2025-10-22T10:59:05.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:59:08.379000+08:00","text":"所以如果有這樣的法律規定，那當然就可以。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2025-10-22T10:59:08.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:59:08.459000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席（李委員坤城代）","start":"2025-10-22T10:59:08.459000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-10-22T10:59:12.061000+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席（李委員坤城代）","start":"2025-10-22T10:59:12.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-10-22T10:59:15.923000+08:00","text":"接下來請林思銘召委，在林思銘召委質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘。","quality":0.333}]},"gazette":{"lineno":693,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時45分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請主計長跟財政部阮次長。"],["主席：好，請主計長還有阮次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計長好、次長好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有覺得今天冷清清的啊？是因為天氣冷還是因為下雨，你覺得呢？還是因為今天我們討論的是財劃法，主計長，你覺得呢？如果今天我們討論的是一萬元怎麼領、跟誰領、怎麼花、政府還有補貼，你覺得情況會不會不一樣？好像不好答喔。","其實是這樣子，就像公司，員工只要有拿到薪水，其他的他不會問，他不會去關心公司的財務、會計怎麼調度，他只關心我的薪水是不是按時發，是不是這樣子？所以，次長，昨天財政部是不是召集各地方的財政主管來討論財政收支劃分法，熱不熱烈？"],["阮次長清華：非常熱烈。"],["鍾委員佳濱：非常熱烈？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都是管財務的人嘛？"],["阮次長清華：對，都管財務的，都是財政系統的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！但是一般不是財政系統的，不曉得你們在搞什麼啦。","來，我先問一下，地方補助款不低於去年還創新高，這是新聞，財政部昨天開的那個會是不是……這是昨天的新聞照片，你們要提行政院版的財劃法修法，對不對？報導中還提到說，保障統籌分配稅款跟一般性補助款不低於今年的規模，就是7,177億，但是要滿足基準財政收支短差、納入財政努力機制，也就是貢獻機制，還要考量到基本建設需求，到時分配的方法會調整回來，地方政府多表認同。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：調整回來是他們的錢會變多還是變少？"],["阮次長清華：有些多，當然有些會減少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多的當然是認同啊！少的也認同啊？"],["阮次長清華：因為指標一動以後一定是這樣，因為那個是公式嘛。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。來，我們跟兩位探討一下，這是憲法裡面中央跟地方的事權劃分，主計長跟次長是不是同意在討論錢怎麼分配之前，先討論事權怎麼分，對不對？同意嘛？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：同意就點頭或大聲說，大聲說我比較聽得到。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是喔？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看憲法第一百零七條到第一百十條，第一百零七條說哪些是中央做的，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一百零八條、第一百零九條就談到哪些是可以交給省做或省可以交給縣市做，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後第一百十條是談到地方政府也就是縣市級的要做的是這些，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我請教一下，農林這部分是屬於中央可以交給地方去執行。剛剛傳出臺中疑似發現非洲豬瘟，農業部緊急召開記者會，但是媒體有在報導說，因為今年農業部宣導防疫的經費被大砍，所以會不會因此而在防疫宣導上有漏洞。請問一下，像防疫這個事情是屬於中央的還是屬於地方的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：中央和地方都有啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：中央的預算被砍了，然後地方那邊出現漏洞，那誰要負責？很難講，對不對？不好講嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在還沒有調查清楚。","往下看，來，我們看一看，我們現在的社福支出有福利，對不對？我們看到你的報告裡寫的，福利照顧跟社會安全340億，對不對？這你的報告裡面寫的嘛，這是關於115年度一般性補助款2,500億當中，福利照顧跟社會安全占了340億，為照顧、協助弱勢所保留的社會福利經費406億。我請教一下，這可能要請教主計長，福利照顧、社會安全是中央還是地方負責，法有明文嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，這些都是屬於地方的，只是都是由中央補助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：等等，中央政府支出的勞保補助、健保補助是法有明文由中央出，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分還必須透過修法，因為以前這個部分是省政府在支出，後來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是過去是中央政府支出，但是本來是屬於地方的權責，因為中央的財政較好，所以在條文上有指明是中央出的中央就要出嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個原來是省政府在出，後來移轉……"],["鍾委員佳濱：本來是省政府出的，後來交給中央政府出。"],["陳主計長淑姿：精省之後交給政府，所以這個部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：必須要有條文明定的才是中央出，如果沒有明定的，那還是中央出嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，等於條文有明定的有勞保、健保，這必須要透過修法才有辦法把事權移轉，但是現在如果沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計長，你太急了啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說，沒有修法……你當然想把勞保跟健保交給地方嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是縱使如此，該地方出的，如果條文有定是中央出，中央還是會出，除非修法。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是如果法沒有明定的，是不是就應該是地方出？我要問你的是這一句啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有法律明定的，是不是該地方的就地方出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：地方制度法也有明確的規定，所以我們現在的一般性補助和計畫型補助都是地方應該要出的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以從憲法的法理推論，該地方執行的業務，除非像勞保跟健保是法有明文規定，我們中央才出，法沒有明文規定的都應該地方出，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你太急了，你一直覺得連勞保、健保都應該是地方出，除非修法，當然修法就照法律，沒有修法的，沒有定在法律裡面的就是照這個原理。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我再問一下，現在健保保費的部分法有明定政府負擔的都是由中央政府出，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：民眾自付的，地方政府是不是幫低收入戶出了？有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！這地方政府有出嘛！還有中低收入戶70歲以上的長者由地方政府出，民眾的自付額地方政府扛起來了，所以那一天我才問你，如果地方政府連民眾自付的都有能力支付，那為什麼政府支付的要中央來付呢？是不是這個意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你覺得未來是不是應該由中央跟地方共同討論，原定政府負擔的部分大家怎麼樣互相去拆分，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以健保的保費你是傾向未來修法要把這個部分考慮進來，現在地方政府連民眾自付額都有辦法幫忙付，那政府應付額就不應該都是由中央政府出嘛！是這樣嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看，退撫經費也是如此，現在退撫經費一部分是由退撫基金負擔，中央政府有沒有負擔？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有負擔嘛！中央的公教人員是中央出，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那請問地方公教人員的是誰出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：依規定應該地方政府來出。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那實況是誰在出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它增加的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：實況是誰在出？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它增加的部分是中央政府在出。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！所以你看，零用錢都發下去了，帳單還是老爸、老媽付，對不對？子女都說零用錢太少了，我沒辦法生活，多給零用錢，可是他在外面開銷的帳單還是老媽、老爸付，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那在這種情況之下，我們要怎麼調？所以目前我們連公教的年金，除了退撫基金之外，是中央政府幫忙出，而且中央政府還負擔了地方公教人員的部分，那未來有沒有可能這個部分也要分清楚、說明白，按照財力跟他們的負擔去調整？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個也是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。剛剛李坤城委員提到，去年修了財劃法，今年一算，糟糕了，有345億分配不出去，其中將近99.8%是屬於離島的，請問345億這些錢本來是不是要給地方的錢？那是不是要用在地方的身上？誰來答？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是不是本來要分配給地方的錢？"],["阮次長清華：這是因為公式分配出去的，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，本來要分配給它，但是因為制度上的缺陷分配不出去，那理論上這些錢要用在地方的人民身上，是不是這樣？"],["阮次長清華：因為這個本來就是地方的錢……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以用在地方人民身上，包不包括這邊所說的福利照顧跟社會安全？主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：包括。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括嘛！所以如果這筆錢用在人民的福利照顧跟社會安全，你是支持的吧？主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個我沒有辦法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼沒有辦法回答呢？這是要給地方的錢，地方本來就要做福利照顧跟社會安全，如果拿去做福利照顧跟社會安全，符不符合這筆錢它的性質？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，它是屬於地方負擔。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對嘛！符合它的性質嘛！那我們來看一下，國民年金、老人年金，這是人民的福利照顧跟社會安全，依照我們憲法裡面中央跟地方的分權，這是地方政府的權責，所以這筆錢如果用在這個部分，有沒有符合它的原理？主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是屬於地方應該負擔的話。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地方應該負擔的，如果這筆錢用在老人年金、國民的國民年金，有人主張讓他月領8,000，如果扣除排富、扣除最低居住期間限制，不足的補到8,000，主計總處可不可以幫忙算一下需要多少錢？可不可以去算大概多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：大概900億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：全年要900億，地方要付這900億。往下看，如果有產後照顧津貼有什麼好處？可以坐月子，兩老、四老就可以省事，或者家人照顧時可以減輕負擔，像這種坐月子的錢算不算是人民的福利照顧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果有人要發這筆錢，是不是也要用這一筆給地方的錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：按照中央和地方的分權，是地方的人民就由地方……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後一個，因為時間的關係，勞工的勞退是不是屬於社會安全？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果對勞工勞退自提，政府給1%的獎勵，你覺得這筆錢是不是也是由地方來支應是合理的？是不是合理的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這要看事權的分配……"],["鍾委員佳濱：也是地方。最後我們看一下，所以依現在財政收支劃分法，地方政府的負擔能力為何？我們要先把事權分出來，再去討論中央跟地方應分配的，如果地方政府獲得更多的分配款，是不是一些屬於地方做的事情，地方政府就要全額負擔，你支不支持這樣的一個概念？"],["陳主計長淑姿：原則上應該是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後我們的結論就是這樣，請主計總處針對地方政府法定應辦理事項，統計出目前中央跟地方分別負擔的實際數額。原來是地方做的，結果現在有中央跟地方來分別負擔，把這個統計出來可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分國發會目前在進行，所以這個事權的部分是國發會在負責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我不是說事權，我是說現在去統計，你負責統計就好了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是要國發會去做分配之後，我才能夠協助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要有人告訴你哪些是中央、哪些是地方，你才能去做統計？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒關係，那誰做的先不管，你先統計出來，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些政事別當中，多少中央出、多少地方出，你算出來，我們來檢討看看上面的事權是歸誰，好不好？這樣懂了嗎？可以吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，請財政部針對現行財政收支劃分法地方政府已獲配的新增額度，估算它對於上面這些地方應該做的事情的負擔能力，可以嗎？這樣了解吧？夠清楚吧？"],["阮次長清華：我們當然會配合委員的要求做報告，但是有一點我是不是可以補充說明一下？"],["鍾委員佳濱：請說明。"],["阮次長清華：因為這345億畢竟還是地方的財源，所以假定將來分配公式修正，分配給地方以後，地方政府是可以統收統支的，所以我們可能沒辦法指定它……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然，但是法是立法院定的，如果立法院通過立法，要求把現在分配不出去的這345億直接用在人民的身上，而且是屬於地方政府的福利照顧和社會安全支出，那也是立法院的事情，對不對？就跟著立法院通過的法做就對了，是不是這樣？"],["阮次長清華：所以如果有這樣的法律規定，那當然就可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席（李委員坤城代）：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","接下來請林思銘召委，在林思銘召委質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-3","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","王世堅","張啓楷","洪孟楷","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","高金素梅","謝衣鳯"],"page_start":333,"meetingDate":["2025-10-22"],"gazette_id":"1148701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148701_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款\n審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式\n之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補\n助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148701_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}