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12:06:10","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":17.51346875,"end":19.85909375,"speaker_score":0.914},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":21.985343750000002,"end":22.137218750000002,"speaker_score":0.914},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"鄭天財Sra 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平均移民"},{"start":67.752,"end":95.212,"text":"整體原住民是8.77這個平均裡面的落差在這樣一個情形之下所以我們相關的這些無論是這個公教警消軍人或是尤其是勞工這相關的這些潛意就會受到很大的落差的影響"},{"start":98.775,"end":126.11,"text":"所以过去啊我们就政府机关都会重视唯独现在一直还没有完成的就是我们的劳工的部分我们看国民年金法第53条国民年金法定了很久了年满55岁的原住民一般非原住民是65岁原住民就是55岁我们看这个"},{"start":127.759,"end":153.827,"text":"公务人员退休之前府系法也特别明定一般的公务人员是60岁就自愿退休原住民降为55岁就是有他的实际的年龄平均移民实际的落差的关系公立学校的教职员也是一样法律都这样定的"},{"start":156.024,"end":177.41,"text":"原住民在教職員公立學校教職員也是原住民身份者降為55歲就比一般的退休年齡可以降連農民退休儲金這是新的法例農民退休儲金條例本席在審查委員會提案的時候針對"},{"start":180.287,"end":201.304,"text":"原住民的部分全国原住民跟身心障碍要不同的所以法律就明定要按照他的平均移民来去计算所以农民退休除菌条例的施行细则根据这个条例然后定了施行细则"},{"start":202.321,"end":227.743,"text":"也是要去七分全國原住民身心障礙的生命移民移民來去訂定所以這個都是有一個已經有法律的依據了法律的可以參考所以這個部長所以我們原住民的部分"},{"start":228.789,"end":253.206,"text":"在勞工的部分是不是也應該要比照來訂定請我們市長來跟委員報告 剛我有提到那個國民年金的那個是原住民給付原住民給付那是一個津貼的性質是由原民會編列公務預算來發的那國保的老年年金也是原住民的部分也是跟平常人一樣都是在65歲"},{"start":254.867,"end":273.349,"text":"發給那在勞工的這個部分主要是因為原住民整個勞工經濟整體的保障我們覺得不只是保險包括就業促進跟社會津貼的這個部分那嚴明也跟我們一樣都是"},{"start":275.191,"end":301.844,"text":"慢慢人口在高齡化所以整個社會保險都是採 逐步提高青年年齡的機制那老保的部分我們已經有可以提前五年齡減而年輕的機制那整個老年幾戶也不是用平均餘命來當基礎所以為了制度的公平跟財務的安定整個幾戶條件應該跟一般的人一樣因為我沒有分族群那以上跟各位跟委員報告"},{"start":303.055,"end":320.293,"text":"那個部長你支持剛才的同仁的說明嗎跟這位說明當然市長其實在講的確實是在整體政策上面的一些思考的點那其實從"},{"start":323.016,"end":349.213,"text":"從保險司或者是從我們在思考整體勞保年金的改革的勞保年金整體的制度來說的確會一直要去顧及一個相關的橫平性那尤其是一個比較完整機制的部分所以確實在這個基金的運作裡面比較沒有從身分別那去做差別化的處理剛才你那一計畫部長那一計畫橫平性很重要就是要從橫平性"},{"start":351.479,"end":366.321,"text":"刚才的说明都没有横平性就是因为要横平所以要按照实际的情形我们就讲年龄他就有这么大的平均移民的落差"},{"start":367.711,"end":391.053,"text":"就不橫貧嗎 按照現在的法律就不橫貧嗎按照你勞動部所主管的這些法律就不橫貧嗎跟我們說 因為現在比較會有的討論比較是在青年年齡是不是要往更高來去拉所以對於要把某些部分的青年年齡要再往下降這件事情確實是需要比較多的考慮所以你對這個"},{"start":393.625,"end":418.802,"text":"原住民跟非原住民的平均移民有這麼大的落差毫無手感所以這個部分跟委員不是這樣子的比方說我們就我們在這個平均移民的問題上我在當委員的時候我們也很支持比方說透過原建法或等等等等盡量的來讓我們在原住民族的這個健康的狀態或者是這個那個部長大家能夠來努力那個已經"},{"start":420.723,"end":449.375,"text":"你那樣的說法已經最起碼10年以上都是這樣的說法啦而事實上我剛特別擠了這麼多的法例從國民年金法降為55歲公立學校教職員降為55歲我們的公務人員的法例也是降為55歲農民退休儲金的條例"},{"start":451.038,"end":453.977,"text":"这是最新的法力这是上一届才完成的"},{"start":454.591,"end":479.643,"text":"我應該說的部分都是退休金的部分不是這個一樣的他不是社會保險跟勞工保險不是一樣還是看年齡跟文說明老保是你沒有年齡嗎還有年齡的規定跟文說明老保是我們在主條審查的時候再好好討論老保是社會保險然後剛剛的退休金的部分有他在這個"},{"start":482.586,"end":488.344,"text":"上面退休性質跟社會保險還是有不同的好我們在主條的時候再好好討論好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T11:58:22.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T11:58:22.302000+08:00","text":"主席，有請部長。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-17T11:58:24.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T11:58:30.948000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T11:58:30.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T11:58:32.329000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T11:58:32.329000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-17T11:58:34.011000+08:00","text":"鄭委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T11:58:34.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T11:58:47.950000+08:00","text":"原住民與非原住民平均餘命的落差一直都非常大，我們就以去年來講，平均落差是7.54歲。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T11:58:48.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T11:59:10.456000+08:00","text":"如果是山地原住民，平均落差是9歲；如果是男生，就男生而言，山地原住民的平均餘命有10.38歲的落差，而整體原住民的平均餘命有8.77歲的落差。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T11:59:11.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T11:59:33.212000+08:00","text":"在這樣的一個情形之下，無論是公教警消軍，尤其是勞工，相關的這些權益就會受到很大落差的影響。","quality":0.61},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T11:59:38.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T11:59:47.121000+08:00","text":"過去政府機關都會重視，唯獨現在一直還沒有完成的就是勞工的部分。","quality":0.655},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T11:59:47.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:00:00.588000+08:00","text":"我們看國民年金法第五十三條，國民年金法訂定很久了，年滿55歲的原住民，一般非原住民是65歲，原住民就是55歲。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:00:03.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:00:25.525000+08:00","text":"我們看公務人員退休資遣撫卹法也特別明定，一般的公務人員60歲就可以自願退休，原住民降為55歲，就是有其平均餘命實際落差的關係。","quality":0.582},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:00:26.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:00:42.647000+08:00","text":"公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例也是一樣，法律都這樣訂定的，公立學校教職員也是，具原住民身分的降為55歲，就比一般的退休年齡可以再降低。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:00:46.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:01:09.696000+08:00","text":"連農民退休儲金條例也是，這是新的法律，有關農民退休儲金條例，本席在審查提案的時候，針對原住民的部分，全國、原住民及身心障礙要有所不同，所以法律就明定要按照其平均餘命來計算。","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:01:11.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:01:39.378000+08:00","text":"農民退休儲金條例施行細則是根據這個條例而訂定的，也是要區分全國、原住民及身心障礙的生命餘命來訂定，這個都已經有法律的依據了，有法律可以參考。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:01:42.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:01:53.153000+08:00","text":"部長，關於原住民的勞工部分，是不是也應該要比照來訂定？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:01:53.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:01:55.935000+08:00","text":"我請司長回復。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳司長美女","start":"2025-11-17T12:01:55.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:02:12.867000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛剛委員有提到國民年金的原住民給付，那是一個津貼的性質，是由原民會編列公務預算來發的，而國保老年年金的原住民部分也是跟平常人一樣，都是在65歲發給。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳司長美女","start":"2025-11-17T12:02:14.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:02:38.674000+08:00","text":"在勞工的部分，主要是因為原住民整個勞工經濟整體的保障，我們覺得不只是保險，包括就業促進跟社會津貼的部分，原民也跟我們一樣，都是人口慢慢在高齡化，所以整個社會保險都是採逐步提高請領年齡的機制。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"陳司長美女","start":"2025-11-17T12:02:40.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:02:59.824000+08:00","text":"關於勞保的部分，我們已經有可以提前5年領減額年金的機制，整個老年給付也不是用平均餘命來當基礎，所以為了制度的公平跟財務的安定，整個給付條件應該跟一般人一樣，因為我們沒有分族群，以上跟委員報告。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:03:01.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:03:09.184000+08:00","text":"部長，你支持剛才同仁的說明嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:03:09.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:03:39.869000+08:00","text":"跟鄭委員說明，司長在講的確實是整體政策上面一些思考的點，從保險司或者是從我們在思考勞保年金整體的制度來說，的確會一直要去顧及相關的衡平性，尤其是一個比較完整機制的部分，所以確實在基金的運作裡面比較沒有從身分別去做差別化的處理。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:03:41.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:03:47.193000+08:00","text":"剛才部長那一句話「衡平性」很重要，就是要從衡平性……是。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:03:49.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:04:05.891000+08:00","text":"剛才的說明都沒有衡平性，就是因為要衡平，所以要按照實際的情形，我們就講年齡，他們就是有這麼大平均餘命的落差，就不衡平嘛！","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:04:06.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:04:07.773000+08:00","text":"按照現在的法律，就不衡平嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:04:08.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:04:13.638000+08:00","text":"按照勞動部所主管的這些法律，就不衡平嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:04:15+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:04:28.712000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，因為現在會有的討論比較是在請領年齡是不是要往更高去拉，所以對於要把某些部分的請領年齡再往下降這件事情，確實是需要比較多的考慮。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:04:28.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:04:39.010000+08:00","text":"所以你對原住民跟非原住民平均餘命有這麼大的落差毫無所感啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:04:40.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:04:40.771000+08:00","text":"因此這個部分……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:04:41.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:04:56.662000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，不是這樣子的，在平均餘命的問題上，我在當委員的時候，我們也很支持，比方透過原健法或其他等等的，儘量讓我們在原住民族的健康狀態或者是……大家能夠來努力。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:04:58.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:31.957000+08:00","text":"部長，你那樣的說法，最起碼10年以上都是這樣的說法，而事實上，我剛剛特別舉了這麼多的法律，從國民年金法降為55歲，公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例降為55歲，公務人員退休資遣撫卹法也是降為55歲，而農民退休儲金條例，這是最新的法律，這是上一屆才完成的喔！","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:33.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:34.512000+08:00","text":"委員剛剛說的都是退休金的部分。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:34.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:36.633000+08:00","text":"不是，這一樣的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:36.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:39.074000+08:00","text":"他不是社會保險。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:39.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:41.575000+08:00","text":"跟勞工保險是一樣的，還是看年齡啊！","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:41.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:42.376000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:42.376000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:44.517000+08:00","text":"怎麼會搖頭呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:44.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:44.737000+08:00","text":"勞保是……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:45.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:47.198000+08:00","text":"難道沒有年齡嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:47.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:47.999000+08:00","text":"還是有年齡的規定啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:48.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:50.080000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，勞保是社會保險……","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:50.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:53.441000+08:00","text":"好，我們在逐條審查的時候再好好討論。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:53.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:05:56.603000+08:00","text":"勞保是社會保險，然後剛才退休金的部分……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:05:56.603000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-17T12:06:01.248000+08:00","text":"召委已經起來了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:06:01.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:06:03.395000+08:00","text":"退休金的性質跟社會保險還是有所不同的。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員","start":"2025-11-17T12:06:03.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:06:06.344000+08:00","text":"好，我們在逐條的時候再好好討論，謝謝。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-17T12:06:06.844000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-17T12:06:09.415429+08:00","text":"謝謝鄭天財委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-17T12:06:09.715429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-17T12:06:11.715429+08:00","text":"請陳瑩委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}