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12:39:33","會議時間":"2025-11-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員黃健豪等16人、委員陳超明等16人、委員蘇清泉等17人、委員呂玉玲等16人及委員柯志恩等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等19人、委員林國成等32人、委員王育敏等20人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員王美惠等17人、委員徐欣瑩等22人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員楊曜等25人及委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十六條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員李昆澤等25人及委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第六十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「勞工保險條例第十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等21人、委員何欣純等17人及委員陳超明等16人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「勞工保險條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「勞工保險條例第七十四條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員林倩綺等32人及委員傅崐萁等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第五十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員陳瑩等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第六條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員李昆澤等19人擬具「勞工保險條例第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n\n二、審查\n(一)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員蘇清泉等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條、第二十七條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員郭國文等19人擬具「就業服務法第二十四條及第二十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【綜合詢答，僅詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":6.46034375,"end":9.227843750000002,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":15.79221875,"end":16.28159375,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":16.28159375,"end":17.31096875,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":17.96909375,"end":30.895343750000002,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":31.249718750000003,"end":35.85659375,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":36.29534375,"end":36.83534375,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":37.25721875,"end":48.259718750000005,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":49.27221875,"end":52.596593750000004,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":52.86659375,"end":89.46846875,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":55.752218750000004,"end":55.81971875,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":72.54284375,"end":73.45409375,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":90.16034375000001,"end":93.51846875000001,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":94.96971875000001,"end":122.89784375,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":123.65721875000001,"end":124.14659375000001,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":124.45034375,"end":128.21346875,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":125.66534375,"end":127.18409375,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":128.98971875,"end":135.26721875,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":135.68909375,"end":138.92909375000002,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":139.33409375000002,"end":147.65346875,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":146.64096875,"end":149.56034375000002,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":150.25221875,"end":158.26784375,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":157.32284375,"end":160.02284375000002,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":160.02284375000002,"end":160.42784375000002,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":160.42784375000002,"end":161.06909375,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":161.06909375,"end":167.71784375000001,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":168.02159375000002,"end":173.59034375000002,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":173.59034375000002,"end":195.13971875000001,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":196.21971875,"end":207.44159375,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":207.44159375,"end":207.86346875,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":207.86346875,"end":207.96471875,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":207.96471875,"end":215.42346875,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"洪部長申翰","start":212.18346875,"end":212.53784375,"speaker_score":0.943},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":215.81159375000001,"end":227.65784375,"speaker_score":0.842},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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我們請洪部長有請洪部長委員好部長好關於這個勞保我們這個入法的這件事情我想請問一下你對於勞保撥補法治化這個部分您這個整體提案大概有三個部分那我大概有三個方向就是說政府要負最後的責任"},{"start":36.357,"end":47.812,"text":"入法 還有政府每年撥補至少1000億入法那基金報酬每打6%國庫來補差額現在看起來你們的好像有其他意見是嗎"},{"start":49.318,"end":76.955,"text":"根文說明當然對於這個撥補這個概念把它入法我想我們不會反對啦但是對於要有一個固定的金額入法這件事情因為它牽涉到財政紀律法的第7條所以在這個如果要固定金額入法這上面就會跟財政紀律法第7條會有漢格主要是這個部分那其他的呢那針對那個每年要6%的部分"},{"start":77.615,"end":93.235,"text":"因为这个老保基金其实是这个确定给付制好那在确定给付制上所以比较不是刚刚我可以讲说好像是收益率没有达多少来拨比较不是这个概念"},{"start":95.497,"end":122.569,"text":"對 但是我們現在今天錄這個法只是希望讓勞工安心這個是最基本的當然也減少你的壓力可是我剛剛我想到一件事情我看到就是說今年6月底我們勞保的潛藏的負債是13兆5632億比起前一年11兆8628億增加了1.7兆那以按照目前的撥補方式也只是延後破產而已"},{"start":123.729,"end":148.936,"text":"對不對跟委員說明因為潛藏負債因為這是一個社會保險所以本來就有世財互助的性質那潛藏負債的原因是因為過去我們其實這個費率並沒有足而提撥會慢慢的增加所以在各國的這個公共的基金裡面社會保險的基金裡面都會有潛藏負債的狀況問題他每年都多這麼多"},{"start":150.771,"end":166.61,"text":"對 所以都會有潛藏負債的狀況所以這也是為什麼我們持續的在做撥補而且這兩年我們撥補的力道甚至都已經超過1000億你現在除了撥補你現在除了這個你有想到其他方法嗎第一個是撥補第二個是我們其實這幾年我們在基金的投資的效益其實都相當不錯"},{"start":168.092,"end":194.759,"text":"那甚至去年高多的話到16% 18%以上因為每次討論到這個勞保破產的問題勞工朋友都會非常擔心那當然他們擔心是不是會影響他的權益那要解決勞保破產的問題不是增加收入就是減少支出那現在看起來減少支出的部分原則上你們都不太敢碰那增加收入的部分除了每年提高基本工資跟撥補之外有準備調高保費嗎"},{"start":197.921,"end":222.611,"text":"確實 強化保費當然是各界其實會提出來的其中一個方向可是這的確牽涉到勞工的權益跟雇主的權益所以這部分當然我們還需要更多的社會的討論但是這個也是一種方式因為基本工資提高 保費就會增加當然我們增加幾十億也是不錯 也是增加至少也是一種方式就是說我在想就是說您在這個位置上"},{"start":223.431,"end":238.351,"text":"您會在你任內提出整套的改革方法嗎除了撥補之外我想其實跟委員說明對於維持勞保基金的水位那我們其實這幾年很努力包括爭取撥補是其中之一"},{"start":239.42,"end":267.081,"text":"也包括剛才說基金的投資的效益那我們其實最近也都有蠻亮眼的基金投資的效益那其實也給基金其實蠻多的因為你這個潛藏負債一直在提高我認為他不是好事啊對不對雖然是雖然是各國都有這種潛藏的負債他其實並不會一次的實現啊因為他也會說你可以請領相關的條件如果你沒有到可以請領的條件其實也不能請領潛藏負債是指說以現在所有的這個被保險的狀況假如當下"},{"start":269.222,"end":297.438,"text":"他當然不會一次的請領的話才是這個潛藏負債的狀況所以他其實概念上面當然我覺得我們要非常非常的留意而且要預作準備我們也要預作準備我再問我們勞動部公開國際勞動的統計結果之後看起來台灣被比喻為過勞之島這個說法不是讓得虛名去年2020年台灣的年工時2030小時是全球第五比日本還高"},{"start":298.619,"end":316.681,"text":"那在亞洲的部分是排名第二那今年五月我們國民黨跟民眾黨在民進黨的全面反對之下共同通過的這個還價於民至少把過去被民進黨砍掉的價還給勞工朋友那現在勞團持續呼籲特休的部分也要進行改革這件事你有掌握嗎"},{"start":318.032,"end":332.449,"text":"我想勞工團一直都對特休有這個天數上面的一些期待你認為這個數字有沒有修改的必要就是有沒有在進步的空間"},{"start":333.59,"end":352.478,"text":"第一個我想先跟委員補充在數據上面其實台灣的工時應該不是全球第五高啦因為這個數字這個表格並不是把所有全部全世界所有的國家都列出來但是的確我們認為台灣的工時怎麼樣可以做得更好我們跟隔壁"},{"start":353.198,"end":369.871,"text":"的國家比就好了 像日本韓國嘛如果是全時的工時的話其實台灣的工時統計下來並沒有比日本韓國來的高如果是全時我們這個原因是因為台灣部分工時的比例比較低就是以勞動市場來講 台灣最接近的是南韓嘛"},{"start":370.672,"end":399.741,"text":"那全時工作比例相近兼職的比例也相近如果全時比全時的話我們的工時是比南韓來的低一些的我們算起來2024年台灣是2030小時南韓是1859小時怎麼會比他低呢如果是全時來看的話去年113年每週的經常性工時的話台灣是41.5韓國是42.8我說以全時來看但是你那個如果是全時比全時的話"},{"start":401.922,"end":421.452,"text":"我們現在講全部啊對所以這也是為什麼我們說因為台灣的部分公司你不要把它拆開來講你們都找你們對你們有利的數字來講所以我說如果是全時比全時的話你不能這樣比你這個是整體的意思但是我可是跟委員說我不是說這樣台灣的公司就不用做出改革不是這個意思"},{"start":421.872,"end":446.233,"text":"我跟你大概講一下就是說南韓勞工這個一進公司就有特休台灣等半年才會給三天這就是公司差距的第一個來源那南韓用高額罰款實時稽查逼企業縮短工時那台灣的這個罰金太小稽查太弱公司自然降不下來那南韓勞工有合法權利可拒絕雇主要求加班強迫加班會"},{"start":447.094,"end":469.829,"text":"被認為是這個職場霸凌或這個非法命令那台灣名義上可以拒絕但是在實務上幾乎是無法拒絕的那台灣通常是主管一句話今天要趕工就變加班了那也就是說韓國政府讓韓國勞工有拒絕權但是我們台灣在政府的力道薄弱的狀態下勞工變成被迫的文化"},{"start":470.669,"end":492.56,"text":"第四個 南韓把過勞史視為國家責任我們台灣把過勞史視為個案處理南韓工會參與率是14%大企業工會非常強勢談判的結果 資方通常都會讓步但是台灣工會參與率只有7%而且只有勞動部常常站在資方的立場去思考問題"},{"start":494,"end":508.521,"text":"還有台灣的稽查力度是南韓的十分之一啦我想這些都是問題那部長這不是統計的問題是國家施政的一個差距啦我認為是希望部長在這邊呢能夠承諾來改善這個狀況"},{"start":510.426,"end":536.314,"text":"跟委員說沒有其實我還是有說數字上面的比較是一回事但的確我們認為在工時的問題上面其實有一些我們還可以在更多努力的地方比方說我們其實也很希望接下來擴大其實對於可能很多的工會或者是簽這個團體協約怎麼樣簽一個比較高於法令然後能夠對於勞工的工時更有保障或更多考慮"},{"start":537.214,"end":552.244,"text":"的這部分我們希望這多演繹 部長我再問最後就是說勞團呼籲我們這個包含特休這個地震要更快上限要提高另外改善勞動條件提高勞參率就是缺工的問題要解決啦才不會這個因"},{"start":553.184,"end":572.728,"text":"因為缺能而不能放假部長會朝這三個方向來進行嗎第一個關於缺工的問題我想我們很認真的研議那特休呢近期其實也因為在考慮到缺工部分產業缺工所以我們也在整體的跨國勞動力政策上面做出了一些精進跟調整那第二個我覺得在關於特休我覺得我們可以整體性的來思考"},{"start":573.808,"end":599.367,"text":"所以你們是支持的嗎我們可以整體性的來思考這個事情你支持嗎 你先講嘛我想從勞工的 從勞工的角度當然都會希望特休提高嘛你是部長 你是但是當然我說就政策來說的話我們願意來做整體性的來思考這部分有沒有空間 有多少空間我們 對好 那部長多久可以回答我三個月好不好好 謝謝部長"},{"start":605.077,"end":605.181,"text":"我看"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:29:35.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:29:37.540000+08:00","text":"主席好，我們請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-17T12:29:37.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:29:44.905000+08:00","text":"有請洪部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:29:44.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:29:45.025000+08:00","text":"邱委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:29:45.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:29:45.705000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:29:47.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:30:13.668000+08:00","text":"關於勞保入法這件事情，我想請問一下，你對於勞保撥補法制化這個部分，整體提案大概有三個部分，我大概有三個方向，就是政府要負最後的責任入法，還有政府每年撥補至少1,000億入法，基金報酬沒達6%國庫來補差額。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:30:13.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:30:16.812000+08:00","text":"現在看起來你們好像有其他意見，是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:30:18.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:30:24.362000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，當然對於撥補這個概念把它入法，我想我們不會反對啦！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:30:25.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:30:41.172000+08:00","text":"但是對於要有一個固定的金額入法，這件事情因為它要牽涉到財政紀律法第七條，所以如果要固定金額入法這上面，就跟財政紀律法第七條會有扞格，主要是這個部分。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:30:41.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:30:42.272000+08:00","text":"那其他的呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:30:43.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:31:02.215000+08:00","text":"針對每年要6%的部分，因為勞保基金其實是確定給付制，在確定給付制上，比較不是剛剛委員講好像是收益率沒有達多少來撥，比較不是這個概念。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:31:04.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:31:31.549000+08:00","text":"但是我們現在今天入這個法，只是希望讓勞工安心，這個是最基本的嘛，當然也減少你的壓力，可是剛剛我想到一件事情，我看到今年6月底，我們勞保的潛藏負債是13兆5,632億，比起前一年11兆8,628億，增加了1.7兆，按照目前的撥補方式，也只是延後破產而已啊！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:31:32.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:31:34.389000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:31:34.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:31:56.395000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，第一個，因為潛藏負債……因為這是一個社會保險，所以本來就有世代互助的性質，潛藏負債的原因，是因為過去我們這個費率並沒有足額提撥，會慢慢地增加，在各國社會保險的基金裡面都會有潛藏負債的狀況。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:31:57.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:31:57.916000+08:00","text":"你看每年都多這麼多。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:31:59.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:32:06.579000+08:00","text":"對，所以都會有潛藏負債的狀況，這也是為什麼我們持續在撥補，而且這兩年我們撥補的力道甚至都已經超過1,000億……","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:32:06.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:32:10.784000+08:00","text":"你現在除了撥補，有想到其他方的方法嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:32:10.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:32:22.293000+08:00","text":"第一個是撥補，第二個是我們這幾年在基金投資的效益其實都相當不錯，甚至去年多的話，到16%、18%以上。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:32:22.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:32:29.775000+08:00","text":"每次討論到勞保破產的問題，勞工朋友都會非常擔心，當然他們擔心是不是會影響他的權益。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:32:30.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:32:43.759000+08:00","text":"要解決勞保破產的問題，不是增加收入，就是減少支出，現在看起來減少支出的部分，原則上你們都不太敢碰，增加收入的部分，除了每年提高基本工資跟撥補之外，有準備調高保費嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:32:46.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:32:56.605000+08:00","text":"確實調高保費，當然是各界會提出來的其中一個方向，可是這的確牽涉到勞工的權益跟雇主的權益，所以這部分我們還需要更多的社會討論。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:32:56.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:00.826000+08:00","text":"但是這個也是一種方式，因為基本工資提高，保費就會增加。是。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:02.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:17.157000+08:00","text":"當然我們增加幾十億也是不錯，也是增加嘛，至少也是一種方式，我在想您在這個位置上，您會在你任內提出整套的改革方法嗎？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:17.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:17.858000+08:00","text":"除了撥補之外。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:19.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:31.082000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，對於維持勞保基金的水位，我們其實這幾年很努力，包括爭取撥補是其中之一，也包括剛剛說基金投資的效益。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:31.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:37.907000+08:00","text":"我們其實最近也都有蠻亮眼的基金投資效益，也給基金蠻多的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:38.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:42.551000+08:00","text":"你這個潛藏負債一直在提高，我認為它不是好事啊，對不對？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:42.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:44.832000+08:00","text":"雖然各國都有這種案例沒錯……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:44.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:46.914000+08:00","text":"潛藏負債其實並不會一次實現……當然……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:47.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:52.838000+08:00","text":"因為它也會涉及到可以請領的相關條件，如果沒有到可以請領的條件，其實也不能請領。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:52.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:56.061000+08:00","text":"潛藏負債是指現在所有被保險人的狀況，假如當下……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:58.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:33:59.323000+08:00","text":"當然他不會全部……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:33:59.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:34:09.249000+08:00","text":"一次請領的話，才是潛藏負債的狀況，所以其實概念上面，當然我覺得我們要非常非常留意，而且我們也要預做準備。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:34:09.249000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-17T12:34:10.249000+08:00","text":"還是要注意嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:34:09.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:34:20.255000+08:00","text":"好了，我再問，勞動部公開國際勞動的統計結果之後，看起來臺灣被比喻為過勞之島，這個說法不是浪得虛名。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:34:21.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:34:29.742000+08:00","text":"去年（2024年）臺灣的年工時2,030小時是全球第五，比日本、韓國還高，在亞洲的部分是排名第二。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:34:30.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:34:40.195000+08:00","text":"今年5月國民黨跟民眾黨在民進黨的全面反對之下，共同通過的還假於民，至少把過去被民進黨砍掉的假還給勞工朋友。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:34:40.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:34:45.681000+08:00","text":"現在勞團持續呼籲特休的部分也要進行改革，這件事你有掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:34:47.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:34:53.559000+08:00","text":"我想勞工團體對特休天數上面一直都有一些期待。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:34:55.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:34:59.406000+08:00","text":"你認為這個數字有沒有修改的必要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:35:00.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:35:01.449000+08:00","text":"有沒有再進步的空間？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:35:02.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:35:09.893000+08:00","text":"第一個，我想先跟委員補充，在數據上面，其實臺灣的工時應該不是全球第五高啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:35:10.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:35:20.597000+08:00","text":"因為這個數字的表格並不是把全世界所有的國家都列出來，但是的確我認為臺灣的工時怎麼樣可以做得更好……","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:35:20.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:35:24.420000+08:00","text":"那我們跟隔壁的國家比就好了，像日本、韓國嘛！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:35:24.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:35:35.669000+08:00","text":"如果是全時工時的話，其實臺灣的工時統計下來並沒有比日本、韓國來得高，當然這個原因是因為臺灣兼職的比例比較低。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:35:36.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:35:42.673000+08:00","text":"我們不拿兼職高的國家比，以勞動市場來講，臺灣最接近的是南韓，全時工作的比例相近，兼職的比例也相近，加班的文化也相近。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:35:44.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:35:48.075000+08:00","text":"如果全時比全時的話，我們的工時是比南韓來得低一些的。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:35:48.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:35:54.917000+08:00","text":"我們算起來，2024年臺灣是2,030小時，南韓是1,859小時，怎麼會比他低呢？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:35:55.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:36:05.960000+08:00","text":"如果是全時來看的話，去（113）年每週的經常性工時的話，臺灣是41.5，韓國是42.8，我說以全時來看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:36:07.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:36:07.781000+08:00","text":"但是你那個比例……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:36:07.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:36:08.741000+08:00","text":"如果是全時比全時的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:36:10.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:36:12.883000+08:00","text":"我們現在講全部啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:36:13.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:36:14.904000+08:00","text":"對，所以這也是為什麼我們說，因為臺灣的部分工時的比例比較低。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:36:15.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:36:20.267000+08:00","text":"你不要把它拆開，拆開來講，你們都找對你們有利的數字來講。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:36:20.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:36:22.848000+08:00","text":"所以我說，如果是全時比全時的話，比韓國來得低一點。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:36:22.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:36:25.129000+08:00","text":"你不能這樣比，這是整體的影響。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:36:25.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:36:30.432000+08:00","text":"可是跟委員說，我不是說臺灣這樣的工時就不用做出改革，不是這個意思。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:36:30.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:37:45.584000+08:00","text":"我跟你大概講一下，南韓勞工一進公司就有特休，臺灣等半年才會給3天，這就是工時差距的第一個來源；南韓用高額罰款、實質稽查，逼企業縮短工時，臺灣的罰金太小、稽查太弱，工時自然降不下來；南韓勞工有合法權利可拒絕雇主要求加班，強迫加班會被認為是職場霸凌或非法命令；臺灣名義上可以拒絕，但是在實務上幾乎是無法拒絕的，臺灣通常是主管一句話，今天要趕工就變加班了，也就是說韓國政府讓韓國勞工有拒絕權，但是臺灣在政府力道薄弱的狀態下，勞工變成被迫的文化；第四個，南韓把過勞死視為國家責任，臺灣把過勞死視為個案處理；南韓工會參與率是14%，大企業工會非常強勢，談判的結果資方通常都會讓步，但是臺灣工會參與率只有7%，而且只有勞動部常常站在資方的立場去思考問題，還有臺灣的稽查力度是南韓的十分之一啦！","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:37:46.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:37:47.807000+08:00","text":"我想這些都是問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:37:47.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:37:57.521000+08:00","text":"部長，這不是統計的問題，是國家施政的一個差距，我希望部長在這邊能夠承諾改善這個狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:37:59.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:38:27.495000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我還是說數字上面的比較是一回事，但的確我們認為在工時的問題上面，其實有一些我們還可以再更多努力的地方，比方我們也很希望接下來擴大，其實對於可能很多的工會，或者是簽團體協約，怎麼樣簽一個比較高於法令，然後對於勞工的工時能夠更有保障或更多考慮的部分，我們希望更多研議。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:38:28.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:38:43.626000+08:00","text":"部長，我最後再問，勞團呼籲我們包含特休的遞增要更快、上限要提高；另外，改善勞動條件、提高勞參率，就是缺工的問題要解決，才不會因為缺人而不能放假。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:38:44.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:38:46.229000+08:00","text":"部長，會朝這三個方向來進行嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:38:46.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:38:49.853000+08:00","text":"第一個，關於缺工的問題，我想我們很認真的研議……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:38:49.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:38:50.694000+08:00","text":"那特休呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:38:50.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:38:58.263000+08:00","text":"近期其實也因為考慮到部分產業缺工，所以我們也在整體跨國勞動力政策上面，做出了一些精進跟調整。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:38:59.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:01.707000+08:00","text":"第二個，關於特休，我覺得我們可以整體性來思考。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:02.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:03.609000+08:00","text":"所以你們是支持的嘛？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:03.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:05.871000+08:00","text":"我們可以整體性來思考這個事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:06.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:07.112000+08:00","text":"你支持嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:07.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:07.392000+08:00","text":"你先講嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:07.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:08.392000+08:00","text":"你支持我們就繼續講下去。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:07.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:11.615000+08:00","text":"我想從勞工的角度，當然都會希望特休提高……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:11.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:12.496000+08:00","text":"你是部長，你是勞工的頭耶！","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:12.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:21.402000+08:00","text":"但是，當然就政策來說的話，我們願意來做整體性的思考，這部分有沒有空間、有多少空間，我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:21.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:23.324000+08:00","text":"部長，多久可以回答我？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪部長申翰","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:26.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:27.827000+08:00","text":"三個月好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:28.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:28.367000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:28.867000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:31.438429+08:00","text":"謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-17T12:39:31.738429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-17T12:39:34.881286+08:00","text":"接下來請王鴻薇委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}