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10:18:56","會議時間":"2025-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、數位發展部首長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、教育部首長及勞動部首長就「攸關臺灣未來的競爭力，值此ＡI時代，臺灣如何贏得新人才戰？」進行報告，並備質詢。\n【11月19日及20日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":1.7690937500000001,"end":5.464718750000001,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":7.25346875,"end":7.96221875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":13.328468750000003,"end":19.875968750000002,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":20.93909375,"end":24.80346875,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":24.92159375,"end":51.68534375,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":55.02659375,"end":56.12346875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":56.19096875,"end":57.945968750000006,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":58.283468750000004,"end":58.907843750000005,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":59.17784375,"end":68.40846875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":68.56034375,"end":81.01409375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":81.04784375,"end":92.59034375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":92.72534375000001,"end":98.47971875,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":98.51346875,"end":99.07034375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":99.23909375000001,"end":100.87596875000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":100.99409375,"end":111.86159375000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":112.35096875,"end":118.00409375000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":117.70034375,"end":123.97784375,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":119.79284375,"end":121.05846875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":122.94846875,"end":130.28909375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":129.54659375,"end":134.77784375000002,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":130.37346875,"end":130.39034375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":134.92971875,"end":141.20721875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":141.39284375,"end":141.47721875000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":141.47721875000002,"end":147.02909375000002,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":141.56159375000001,"end":142.05096875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":142.37159375000002,"end":142.59096875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":146.72534375,"end":153.37409375000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":153.37409375000001,"end":162.60471875000002,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":155.97284375,"end":156.32721875000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":162.01409375,"end":170.08034375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":170.11409375000002,"end":180.98159375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":181.20096875000002,"end":185.01471875000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":185.03159375,"end":189.68909375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":189.68909375,"end":230.02034375000002,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":192.05159375000002,"end":192.43971875000003,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":209.50034375,"end":209.88846875000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":213.39846875,"end":213.73596875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":216.38534375,"end":216.72284375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"賴委員瑞隆","start":230.72909375,"end":235.15034375000002,"speaker_score":0.781},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":234.84659375,"end":242.37284375000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":242.96346875,"end":249.64596875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"侯次長宜秀","start":249.79784375000003,"end":254.80971875000003,"sp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是公务机关这边就是已经很明确的禁止所以公务机关是禁止使用这五个中国大陆的AI生成式的是就是关于中国制的这个模型我们是禁止使用的"},{"start":153.43,"end":179.754,"text":"中国式的全部都禁止公务机关全部禁止那其他的部分呢其他的就企业跟一般人民的部分怎么样去让他们更清楚的了解这里的风险就企业跟一般人民这个当然检测这个部分的市井我觉得是非常需要那我们在未来推动上也会持续性的其实我们会做相关的这个验测的发布目前这个AIEC这边也有做验测的发布"},{"start":180.174,"end":204.709,"text":"那另外像是對於就是業者的這個還有使用者這邊的提醒我們也會持續去處理書發部可能要更積極的不斷去示警讓企業 讓一般人民知道就有可能你使用的這些中置的AI的話有可能會產生裡面的包括隱私的問題甚至你的個資被洩漏"},{"start":205.569,"end":228.069,"text":"被收集甚至於你的使用權限被逾越了但甚至有可能你會被取得更多不應該被取得一些資訊因為它並不是一個安全的一個狀況這個部分我希望書發部要定期的發布定期的提醒因為唯有不斷的提醒的時候所有的企業所有的國人才會更謹慎小心使用這些那我再次請問一下那你們會認為會建議"},{"start":230.991,"end":249.218,"text":"國人來使用這些的生成式AMR中國這些生成式AMR以速發部的立場當然會認為說這是有一些疑慮的但是對於實際上業界他們因為應用場景的不一樣其實狀況可能會不太一樣"},{"start":249.978,"end":273.386,"text":"那我会认为说比如说是在教育领域可能就是完全必须要完全避免因为使用者的对象也比较就是可能比较没有判断力那但是在某一些产业的应用场景它可能不涉及这些价值判断那另外它可能不是用这一种网路上或是APP的模型而是用开源模型的状况底下呢"},{"start":274.507,"end":287.722,"text":"業界他可能會在他們需要的這個成本效益的考量底下他們會去做他們得要自己去做判斷我希望市長剛剛講這些東西因為因應不同的有不同的需要特別在教育系統他有可能被"},{"start":288.763,"end":310.471,"text":"甚至作戰 甚至洗腦的話 那對於會產生影響那類似像這樣的 當然就有的企業上是不一樣我希望美季的部分 至少速發布能不能定期的就你們所掌握到的資訊發布給國人跟企業知道好不好 就是再不斷的提醒因為這樣的事情 當我們在第一線 面臨到第一線的這個這些威脅的時候 甚至於整個滲透的時候 那"},{"start":311.071,"end":332.99,"text":"政府部門也必須扮演一個很重要的角色至少在公部門當然不能用但是在民間的部分在國人部門要不斷地示警他們讓他們知道這件事情可能嚴重而不是等到了事情發生了以後然後他們的重要的個資被洩漏甚至於他們被整個所有的一些被掌控了之後然後才發現政府為什麼從來都沒有提醒過我們"},{"start":333.41,"end":362.166,"text":"好不好 我希望美季能夠定期來提供就你們所掌握到的資訊提供給7N國人那再來我請教一下其實世界各國其實都有注意到了這個中置AI的一些風險那有些甚至於是全面的禁止使用甚至於或者是提出包括像美國 德國 義大利 荷蘭他們對於這種中置的AI的這個有發出一些有的是禁用的 是避免使用的部分那台灣的態度呢我們的態度呢"},{"start":364.065,"end":371.419,"text":"我們會考慮未來朝向如果對於確實有產生很重大的治安危機 國安危機的部分會考慮有禁用的考量嗎"},{"start":372.445,"end":399.267,"text":"在某一些特定的狀況底下在法律授權的範圍內我覺得這是可以被考慮的好 我希望這個部分將來要審慎的思考進去然後就有些很明顯的它是具有的統戰任務或具有的認知作戰任務的它是很明確的那個部分其實應該因為我們是第一線我們是第一線的被攻擊被攻擊的對象的時候甚至於被滲透的對象的時候我們應該要有更強的防衛機制這個要不然其他世界民主國家覺得你台灣為什麼"},{"start":399.987,"end":415.829,"text":"對這一塊似乎沒有進行你該有的防禦當其他國家都在防禦的時候你卻沒有我們看到很多啦有些很明顯的包括他的這個政治立場甚至於他可能做出來這個台灣不存在啦或者是台灣屬於中國的一部分啦或者是"},{"start":416.571,"end":431.077,"text":"台灣不是一個國家啦或者是六四天安門這個字眼是不可以出現顯然他很多是具有很多的被政治篩選過的他只要你看到他要的東西而已他並不是全面的甚至於他會刻意去篩給你"},{"start":432.077,"end":448.997,"text":"他想要給你看到的東西我認為這個都是會影響到我們整體的整個運作的我希望甚至於更嚴重的是未來如果他滲透成功他甚至有可能發出網路的攻擊在關鍵的時刻他發動網路攻擊他掌握到你更多的一些資訊的這些的時候"},{"start":452.567,"end":470.755,"text":"輕的是發動攻擊戰抹黑戰重則直接進行更大的網路性的攻擊而這個都是我們應該在速發部在政府部門要必須要做的防衛機制我希望這一塊未來都要不斷把它訂定出來甚至於提醒國人注意我們會更積極在就是用所有的資源去"},{"start":471.275,"end":490.325,"text":"我希望這件事情一方面我們在發展我們的AI但是一方面我們也要去保護我們自己的這個國家的安全好不好這個我希望每季能夠看到你們有你們該提出來的一些東西出來我們再看一下中國政治AI的這個檢測你看這個這麼多的紅點全部都是不合格的項目所以我想這個你們"},{"start":491.405,"end":508.61,"text":"也是你們有所擁有的資料啦也是國安這邊有資料全部都是都是充滿了很多的問題所以我覺得以這樣的狀況來看是必須要很認真面對中置的這個AI的問題好不好我希望每季能夠看到你們的一些要求"},{"start":509.17,"end":525.35,"text":"好 再來我想一下因為台灣其實在我們AI的一些評比上面其實表現是中上的啦其實大家也都認為那我們很關鍵在於優勢在於我們的一些基礎建設或者整備等等都做得不錯但是我們的法令的部分跟我們相關的這些反倒是比較慢的"},{"start":525.911,"end":540.528,"text":"那包括我們的創新技術也有所一些退步那現在因為我們有一個人工智慧基本法現在也在院裡面要審這些部分如果我先問一下次長預定什麼時候可以來通過你們期待什麼時候通過"},{"start":542.335,"end":571.859,"text":"我希望委員支持也能夠盡快盡快嘛對不對現在已經在月裡了我們也希望朝野也支持這個對於整個未來人工智慧基本法它的發展重要特別現在是全世界都在發展AI的時候這是一個很重要的法那我們希望盡快通過那同時間我也希望通過之後剛剛幾個重要的那些的我也希望未來軟硬體的部分都能夠更持續來加大讓我們的在AI這一塊是有更強的一個國力的那現在普遍大家也能看好台灣是具有這樣的能量的"},{"start":572.5,"end":578.474,"text":"那我们希望事务发布跟各部会继续加油希望我们台湾在这一块能有更好的一个成果好 谢谢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:09:17.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:09:19.590000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，請數發部的侯政次。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-20T10:09:22.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:09:22.792000+08:00","text":"請數發部。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:09:28.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:09:28.734000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:09:29.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:10:06.495000+08:00","text":"我先請教一下，其實總統在昨天有提到了，因為中國對於臺灣始終在做滲透，當然他希望能夠滲透臺灣，甚至達到他所想要達到的政治目的，所以當他這麼做，他又是一個威權專制的國家，所以他所製作出來的生成式AI就會存在包括有強迫同意不合理的隱私條款，包括過度蒐集個資，還有逾越使用權限等等資安的風險，這個部分數發部有沒有掌握到？","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:10:10.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:10:10.981000+08:00","text":"有的，這樣的訊息我們是知道的。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:10:11.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:10:12.322000+08:00","text":"你們掌握到什麼樣的狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:10:14.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:10:33.014000+08:00","text":"我們其實已經在資安方面還有在AI的評測方面都已經定了測試的面向及一些測試的框架，提供各個行政部門、單位根據他們的職掌去做驗測。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:10:37.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:10:47.362000+08:00","text":"目前委員秀出來的資訊，其實就是國安單位根據我們的驗測框架所驗測的結果。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:10:47.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:10:53.144000+08:00","text":"所以中國大陸這五款都是有涉及到這個問題是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:10:54.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:12.952000+08:00","text":"是的，但我可以特別再跟委員說，其實因為中國的生成式AI模型必須要符合中國的相關法律，所以它其實在實際上驗測之前，你大概就可以預期它會有這樣的狀況。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:12.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:18.455000+08:00","text":"因為它有國家要賦予的責任，所以它一定是要接受，國家才有可能……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:19.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:23.338000+08:00","text":"是，因為在大陸那邊，它其實會要求就是演算法、註冊……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:25.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:29.341000+08:00","text":"這樣的話，我們要怎麼樣讓它不會對我們造成這些資安上的影響？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:30.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:35.821000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們在公務機關已經很明確的禁止使用。","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:36.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:41.745000+08:00","text":"所以公務機關是禁止使用這五個中國大陸的AI生成式的……","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:41.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:48.290000+08:00","text":"是，關於中國製的模型，我們是禁止使用的。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:48.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:49.491000+08:00","text":"中國製的全部都禁止？是。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:50.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:52.454000+08:00","text":"好，公務機關全部禁止，其他部分呢？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:52.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:11:57.258000+08:00","text":"其他的就企業跟一般人民的部分，怎麼樣去讓他們更清楚地了解這裡的風險？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:11:57.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:12:14.734000+08:00","text":"是，就企業跟一般人民，當然檢測這部分的示警我覺得是非常需要，我們在未來推動上也會持續的做相關驗測的發布，目前AIEC這邊也有做驗測的發布。","quality":0.641},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:12:16.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:12:24.440000+08:00","text":"另外像是對於業者還有使用者的提醒，我們也會持續去處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:12:25.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:12:51.979000+08:00","text":"數發部可能要更積極地不斷去示警，讓企業、一般人民知道使用這些中製的AI的話，有可能會產生包括隱私的問題，甚至個資被洩漏、被搜集、於使用權限被逾越了，甚至有可能會被取得更多不應該被取得的一些資訊，因為它並不是一個安全的狀況。是。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:12:51.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:13:00.366000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我希望數發部要定期地發布、定期地提醒，因為唯有不斷地提醒，所有的企業、所有的國人才會更謹慎小心使用。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:13:01.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:13:09.973000+08:00","text":"我再次請問一下，你們會建議國人來使用中國的這些生成式AI嗎？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:13:10.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:13:24.218000+08:00","text":"以數發部的立場，當然會認為這是有一些疑慮的，但是實際上對於業界，因為他們的應用場景不一樣，其實狀況可能會不太一樣。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"侯次長宜秀","start":"2025-11-20T10:13:25.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:13:57.396000+08:00","text":"我會認為說，比如在教育領域可能就是必須要完全避免，因為使用者的對象可能比較沒有判斷力；但是在某些產業的應用場景可能不涉及這些價值判斷，另外，它可能不是用這種網路上或是app的模型，而是用開源模型，在這樣的狀況下，業界在他們需要的成本效益考量之下，他們可能得要自己去做判斷。","quality":0.738},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2025-11-20T10:13:57.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-20T10:14:0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25-11-20T10:19:02.776714+08:00","text":"接下來我們請陳超明委員做詢答。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}