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我們有請部長有請彭部長王委員好部長好 部長保重今天我要請教的是越世界這個怎麼變成垃圾山的這個議題我看到這一家這個祐宏公司事實上他是有合法去登記在案的一個公司"},{"start":30.925,"end":55.955,"text":"但是我看到整個過程他是不是用合法來掩護他的非法這個我覺得是環境部你們要非常注意因為我去調出來之前這個地方政府裁罰他的紀錄事實上他過去違法的紀錄蠻多的甚至他有一塊空地他都在堆置這一些失業廢棄物或者是生活垃圾等等"},{"start":56.875,"end":79.253,"text":"但是這樣子的一個違法堆置其實地方政府通通都用42條來裁罰所以42條罰的很輕就是都不到3萬然後去上個課兩個小時為什麼違法堆置不是用比較重的這個廢清法46條而是用比較輕的42條"},{"start":81.375,"end":89.865,"text":"這是不是因為覺得他已經有合法登記了所以就重新處理這個事情你們有沒有去深入去探究"},{"start":91.554,"end":117.259,"text":"因為他是46條的第3款跟第10款的刑責其實他的你看他這個罰的這個費用都是十幾萬有幾萬到幾萬並不是只有6000塊啦所以其實是的確是他們都引用42條你回去看地方政府高雄市政府他罰的都是42條他沒有引用46條那之前的是用36條啦所以是6000到300萬不是不是之前這個"},{"start":118.679,"end":143.034,"text":"可能部長今天身體微恙齁我要跟你講 那個要不要署長來回答他整個齁 你自己去調出來你們到目前為止都沒有調出來我已經調出來他的整個裁罰紀錄裁罰紀錄裡面都是引用42條所以我就很納悶啊違法堆置 這很多的那個理由都是違法堆置那違法堆置為什麼是引用42條呢署長你說 為什麼報委員齁"},{"start":147.034,"end":174.131,"text":"那個 這裡我們的法對於4月7日會有6千到3百萬他會依照他的程度那各個案不一樣所以有不一樣的猜法不過現在發生的這一案是引用46條而且移送檢調偵辦我知道啊 那之前的我要告訴你之前他已經多次違反而且非法堆置非法堆置為什麼是42條你要告訴我"},{"start":175.692,"end":198.062,"text":"是地方政府引用錯誤 還是故意去用比較新的條文42條這個署長你要解釋啊報告委員 應該是不會說引用錯誤啦 他還是會經過那個因為他要用條文的時候 在縣市政府裡面都會有類似而且他已經是多次違反了 為什麼都是一直用42條"},{"start":199.162,"end":225.48,"text":"他會依照他堆置的量或地點犯罪的這個違法的程度我覺得高雄市政府其實就是重新來處理嘛我不知道他為什麼要重新處理照道理來講他不是第一次喔他是多次已經是個累犯結果你在懲罰上面如果不是今天爆發出這個完全已經揭露在媒體把越世界變垃圾山這麼嚴重的情況"},{"start":227.521,"end":249.951,"text":"還要繼續縱放他嗎 繼續輕放嗎繼續用這種微不足道的來上課兩個小時然後懲罰都沒有超過五萬塊這個是不痛不癢啊所以我要求這個環境部你們要去督導地方政府啊就是說你到底你是怎麼在管理的我現在很擔心是以幼紅這一個案例來講"},{"start":250.891,"end":279.189,"text":"他就是去申請一個 有啊 他有登記啊他有登記在案啊 他有一個牌照但是私底下又偷偷摸摸去勾結台南當地的這一些然後還 我覺得最離譜的是把台南的家戶的垃圾也都敢這樣子運到這個越世界然後直接大量的 十幾趟欸十幾趟的這個垃圾車 就這樣子違法侵盜這個真的是無法無天啊所以我覺得你們應該要好好去督導啊"},{"start":280.029,"end":300.484,"text":"地方政府怎麼是這樣子在管理的呢如果說他是出犯那沒有話講不是啊你們自己去調出來看啊很多次了非常多次結果竟然是引用42條我覺得這個大有問題啊好好去查一查吧另外一個我們來看一下"},{"start":302.298,"end":328.504,"text":"我們說中央要這個電子圍理 這個上次我也問過但是這一次你看他的手法他們自己一輛自駕車然後還可以去顧那個路口然後就可以這樣子違法的十幾趟的把這個垃圾堆到四五層樓高我們的公權力沒有辦法發現那我們的智慧圍理射到哪裡去了"},{"start":329.384,"end":351.352,"text":"完全沒有辦法監控而且他們更大膽的是他可以跨縣市的犯案怎麼可以從台南然後運到高雄去我們的政府通通都不知道他不是偷運了一趟是高達十幾趟結果我們的智慧圍籬完全沒有效果這要怎麼改善我上次其實就問過你們說可以沒有問題沒有問題這個就有問題馬上就爆發出來了"},{"start":358.888,"end":361.249,"text":"這個情況我們未來還要編列23億5298萬1千元繼續要加裝這個智慧為理"},{"start":368.866,"end":389.468,"text":"如果連這一個都抓不到那以後我們裝的那個真的有辦法去達到阻嚇這一些非法的業者然後這樣子胡亂破壞我們的環境 清刀垃圾的問題嗎保委員 現在就是因為我們自衛委理是從明年度預算開始執行所以是說現在做的不夠"},{"start":390.589,"end":404.879,"text":"現在我們其實裝的數量相當的少不過效果很好就是說在一些重點那你高雄現在有裝嗎高雄有裝幾隻啦我們全國其實那他現在辦案的這個地方你們有裝嗎沒有那個數量實在太少"},{"start":407.521,"end":423.518,"text":"所以我們剛才委員講的23億那個部分是全國會有2000點那目前大概都是十幾點而已我們在重點去裝而已所以我們期待我們大院能夠支持這次的維理計畫我想會改善相當的多以上"},{"start":424.485,"end":451.087,"text":"我覺得這個真的是太誇張了這個業者他根本就是公然在挑戰我們的公權力發生這種事情這個如果上了國際媒體對台灣的形象傷害真的很大可以把一個觀光景點變成垃圾山感覺我們好像是無政府狀態所以這件事情中央跟地方都有督導不周的責任特別是地方政府怎麼可以長期縱容這樣子的一個"},{"start":452.128,"end":476.393,"text":"他號稱是合法的環保業者還是當地的里長然後渾然不知讓他可以在這邊大肆的破壞高雄的這一個地貿環境這個真的是這個部長你今天身體不舒服你不用講很多話但是我希望你要知道這個是中央你對於地方政府如果有這樣一個情況我也很擔心不是只有一例"},{"start":477.173,"end":502.86,"text":"你知道嗎從一個個案裡面我剛一再強調的有沒有人用合法來掩護非法這樣的一個問題我覺得是你們要有很高的敏感度那我覺得這次地方政府對於長期這樣的現象的漠視他甚至不敢去重罰我覺得這個都要看到啊地方是不是盤根錯節這樣的關係該展現公權力的時候完全沒有大肆的去整頓"},{"start":503.74,"end":521.85,"text":"我覺得這個是你作為中央主管機關作為部長你要好好去整頓好不好那最後一個我要講的是那個CCPR2026指標我剛有聽到你在回覆這個委員當然你會覺得說他們的績效這個不公平但是我要提醒部長"},{"start":522.91,"end":540.717,"text":"事實上在2020年的時候你自己也承認了人均碳排太高你當時不是部長的時候你也承認了那你現在作為部長你更有責任要來改善這樣的一個情況所以與其去批評人家的國際指標說哎呀他不公平"},{"start":541.557,"end":557.062,"text":"畢竟人家也是做了17年了怎麼樣的不公平他們持續性的對於63個國家去做這樣子的一個評估我們還是要敬佩人家這樣的一個精神不是只有說我們成績不好就說人家不公平"},{"start":557.702,"end":581.188,"text":"基本上台湾的表现这几年都不好都在倒数五名不是倒数第五名就是倒数第四名都在这边徘徊而已所以它其实这样的一个指标还是有意义的它在提醒我们台湾我们追求经济发展的同时事实上我们减碳的速度的确是不够快的我们连台中火力发电厂燃煤机组要让它关掉"},{"start":582.929,"end":604.189,"text":"這個連中央政府都有意見如果是這樣子的情況我們火力排放的比例佔的這麼高人家說我們溫室氣體排放是表現是差的我們減排10%達不到我覺得他不是完全無所本這個真的是我們自己要好好思考的我們的能源政策就出了很大的問題"},{"start":605.47,"end":622.481,"text":"就是如果我們要一昧的我們根本做不到但我們高喊非核家園然後那個核能完全不用坦白講我們台灣能用的就很有限再生能源的發展坦白講也很有限我們地小人稠"},{"start":623.422,"end":645.601,"text":"所以我們不可能我們不是美國也不是中國大陸我們沒有大量的土地面積我們也沒有豐沛的水利資源所以再生能源本身我們就會受到一定的限制這個是我們要從能源政策好好的去盤點嘛所以這件事情呢我覺得與其去挑戰說人家國際17年的評比指標說有一些不公平"},{"start":646.181,"end":674.231,"text":"我們更需要做的其實是反省我們自己我們真的檢探的速度不夠快雖然有改善但是跟人家國際很多國家比較起來我們人均碳排真的就是高啊這個是你2020講過的這也是事實啊你當時講的這句話我覺得很好啊這是事實啊務實的面對我覺得比較重要所以我想這個部長你現在有權利就是如何檢探就是整個政府特別是"},{"start":675.071,"end":697.994,"text":"我覺得我們真的沒有不用核能的條件所以最近經濟部看起來好像有點醒了就是核三想要再研議了我覺得這是好的方向是晚了一點但是我們就承認在我們的天然能源結構條件不足的情況底下如果要減碳必須啟用部分的核能我覺得這是沒有辦法迴避的議題所以我希望這一題"},{"start":699.136,"end":706.45,"text":"這個部長 這個你現在有權利好好的把檢探工作做好 好不好好 謝謝委員好 祝你早日康復 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:02:17.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:02:17.778000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-24T10:02:17.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:02:18.038000+08:00","text":"有請彭部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:02:18.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:02:18.078000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:02:18.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:02:18.258000+08:00","text":"部長好，部長保重。謝謝。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:02:18.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:02:47.887000+08:00","text":"今天我要請教的是月世界怎麼變成垃圾山的議題，這一家侑鴻公司事實上是合法登記在案的公司，但是我看到整個過程中，他是不是用合法來掩護非法？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:02:48.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:02:50.588000+08:00","text":"這個部分我覺得環境部要非常注意。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:02:51.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:03:06.935000+08:00","text":"我調出來之前地方政府對他的裁罰紀錄，事實上違法的紀錄滿多的，甚至他有一塊空地都在堆置事業廢棄物或者是生活垃圾等等。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:03:07.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:03:22.727000+08:00","text":"但是這樣子的違法堆置，地方政府通通都用第四十二條來裁罰，第四十二條罰得很輕，就是都不到3萬，然後去上個2小時的課。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:03:22.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:03:40.845000+08:00","text":"為什麼違法堆置不是用比較重的廢清法第四十六條，而是用比較輕的第四十二條，是不是因為他已經有合法登記了，所以就從輕處理，這個事情你們有沒有深入去探究？","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:03:42.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:03:53.636000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為他是第四十六條第三款跟第十款的刑責，這個罰的費用都是十幾萬，也有幾萬到幾萬的，並不是只有6,000塊，所以其實的確是……","quality":0.768},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:03:54.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:04:01.298000+08:00","text":"他們都引用第四十二條，你回去看地方政府（高雄市政府）罰的都是第四十二條，沒有引用第四十六條，為什麼？","quality":0.659},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:04:02.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:04:07.279000+08:00","text":"之前的是用第三十六條，所以是6,000到300萬。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:04:07.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:04:14.742000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，可能部長今天身體微恙，要不要署長來回答？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:04:16.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:04:24.568000+08:00","text":"你自己去調出來，你們到目前為止都沒有調出來，我已經調出來他的整個裁罰紀錄，裁罰紀錄裡面都是引用第四十二條。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:04:24.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:04:33.654000+08:00","text":"所以我就很納悶，很多的理由都是違法堆置，為什麼違法堆置是引用第四十二條呢？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:04:33.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:04:34.014000+08:00","text":"署長，你說為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2025-11-24T10:04:34.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:04:55.045000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個部分的裁罰，對於事業廢棄物會依照他的程度罰6,000到300萬，因為個案不一樣，所以有不一樣的裁罰，不過，現在發生的這案是引用第四十六條，而且已移送檢調偵辦，以刑事偵辦的。","quality":0.61},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:04:55.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:04:56.606000+08:00","text":"我知道啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:04:58.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:05:05.111000+08:00","text":"我要告訴你的是之前他已經多次違反，而且非法堆置為什麼是第四十二條，你要告訴我啊！","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:05:06.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:05:13.775000+08:00","text":"是地方政府引用錯誤，還是故意去用比較新的條文，第四十二條，這個部分署長你要解釋啊！","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2025-11-24T10:05:14.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:05:26.120000+08:00","text":"報告委員，應該不會是引用錯誤，他還是會經過那個……因為他要用條文的時候，在縣市政府裡面都會有類似一個……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:05:26.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:05:29.062000+08:00","text":"而且他已經是多次違反，為什麼都是一直用第四十二條？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2025-11-24T10:05:30.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:05:36.566000+08:00","text":"他會依照堆置的量或地點，或者違法的程度……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:05:36.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:05:41.049000+08:00","text":"我覺得高雄市政府其實就是從輕來處理嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:05:42.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:05:43.571000+08:00","text":"我不知道他為什麼要從輕處理？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:05:44.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:01.062000+08:00","text":"照道理來講，他不是第一次，是多次而且已經是個累犯，結果在懲罰上面，如果不是在今天爆發且已經完全揭露在媒體，把月世界變垃圾山這麼嚴重的情況，還要繼續縱放嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:06:01.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:02.183000+08:00","text":"繼續輕放嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:06:02.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:09.466000+08:00","text":"繼續用這種微不足道的上課2個小時，而懲罰都沒有超過5萬塊，這個是不痛不癢。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:06:10.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:17.509000+08:00","text":"所以我要求環境部要去督導地方政府，到底是怎麼在管理的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:06:17.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:25.293000+08:00","text":"我現在很擔心是以侑鴻這一個案例來講，他就是去申請一個……有啊，他有登記在案！","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:06:25.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:41.483000+08:00","text":"他有一個牌照，但是私底下又偷偷摸摸勾結臺南當地的這一些……然後我覺得最離譜的是，也敢把臺南的家戶垃圾這樣子運到月世界，直接大量地傾倒，十幾趟耶！","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:06:41.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:47.187000+08:00","text":"十幾趟的垃圾車違法傾倒，這個真的是無法無天啊！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:06:47.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:53.391000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得你們應該要好好去督導，地方政府怎麼是這樣子在管理的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:06:53.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:57.133000+08:00","text":"如果他是初犯，那沒有話講，不是啊！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:06:57.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:06:58.775000+08:00","text":"你們自己去調出來看啦！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:07:00.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:07:09.462000+08:00","text":"很多次了，非常多次了，結果竟然是引用第四十二條，我覺得這個大有問題啊，好好去查一查吧！","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:07:10.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:07:36.303000+08:00","text":"另外一個，我們來看一下，關於中央要設置電子圍籬的部分，上一次我也問過，但是這一次你看他的手法，他們自己一輛自駕車，還可以去顧路口，然後就可以這樣子違法十幾趟，把垃圾堆到四、五層樓高，我們的公權力沒有辦法發現！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:07:36.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:07:39.484000+08:00","text":"我們的智慧圍籬設到哪裡去了？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:07:40.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:07:41.364000+08:00","text":"完全沒有辦法監控！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:07:42.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:07:50.608000+08:00","text":"而且更大膽的是他們可以跨縣市犯案，從臺南運到高雄去，我們的政府通通都不知道？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:07:51.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:01.171000+08:00","text":"他不是偷運了一趟，是高達十幾趟，結果我們的智慧圍籬完全沒有效果，這要怎麼改善？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:01.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:02.332000+08:00","text":"我上次其實就問過，你們說可以、沒有問題，這個就有問題，馬上就爆發出來了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:10.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:33.961000+08:00","text":"未來還要編列23億5,298萬1,000元繼續加裝智慧圍籬，如果連這一個都抓不到，以後裝設的智慧圍籬，真的有辦法達到嚇阻非法業者胡亂破壞環境及傾到垃圾的問題嗎？","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:34.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:38.967000+08:00","text":"報告委員，現在就是因為智慧圍籬是從明年度預算開始執行，我們有……","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:39.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:40.468000+08:00","text":"所以你是說現在做得不夠。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:41.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:47.874000+08:00","text":"其實現在我們裝的數量相當地少，不過效果很好，就是在一些重點地區……","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:48.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:50.195000+08:00","text":"高雄現在有裝嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:50.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:53.358000+08:00","text":"高雄有裝幾支，我們全國其實……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:53.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:55.039000+08:00","text":"他現在犯案的這個地方，你們有裝嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:55.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:55.859000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有，那個數量實在太少。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:55.859000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-24T10:08:59.823000+08:00","text":"也還沒有裝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顏署長旭明","start":"2025-11-24T10:08:59.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:09:14.498000+08:00","text":"剛才委員講的23億的部分是全國會有2,000點，目前大概都是十幾點而已，我們在重點區裝設，所以我們期待大院能夠支持智慧圍籬計畫，我想會改善相當的多，以上。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:09:15.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:09:21.730000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個真的是太誇張了，這個業者根本就是公然在挑戰我們的公權力！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:09:22.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:09:33.400000+08:00","text":"發生這種事情，如果上了國際媒體，對臺灣的形象傷害真的很大，可以把一個觀光景點變成垃圾山，感覺我們好像是無政府狀態！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:09:35.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:10:09.353000+08:00","text":"這件事情中央跟地方都有督導不周的責任，特別是地方政府，怎麼可以長期縱容這樣子的一個號稱是合法的環保業者，還是當地的里長，渾然不知地讓他可以大肆地破壞高雄的地貌環境，這個真的是……部長，你今天身體不舒服，你不用講很多話，但是我希望你要知道，這個是中央對於地方政府如果有這樣的狀況，我也很擔心不是只有一例，你知道嗎？","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:10:09.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:10:16.815000+08:00","text":"從一個個案裡面，我剛剛一再強調的，有沒有人用合法來掩護非法這樣的問題？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:10:16.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:10:19.016000+08:00","text":"我覺得你們要有很高的敏感度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:10:19.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:10:29.799000+08:00","text":"我覺得這次地方政府對於長期這樣現象的漠視，甚至不敢重罰，這個都要看到地方是不是盤根錯節的關係？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:10:29.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:10:39.743000+08:00","text":"該展現公權力的時候，完全沒有大肆整頓，你作為中央主管機關、作為部長，你要好好去整頓，好不好？好。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:10:40.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:11:01.953000+08:00","text":"最後一個，我要講的是CCPI 2026指標，我剛剛有聽到你回復委員，當然你會覺得他們這個績效不公平，但是我要提醒部長，事實上在2020年的時候，你自己也承認人均碳排太高，你當時不是部長的時候，你也承認。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:11:02.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:11:28.042000+08:00","text":"你現在作為部長，你更有責任要來改善這樣的情況，所以與其去批評人家的國際指標不公平，畢竟人家也是做17年了，再怎麼樣不公平，他們持續性的對於63個國家去做這樣子的評估，我們還是要敬佩人家的精神，不是只有說我們成績不好，就說人家不公平。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:11:28.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:12:49.415000+08:00","text":"基本上，臺灣的表現這幾年都不好，都在倒數5名，不是倒數第5名，就是倒數第4名，都在這邊徘徊而已，所以其實這樣的一個指標還是有意義的，它在提醒臺灣追求經濟發展的同時，事實上我們減碳的速度的確是不夠快，連要關掉台中火力發電廠燃煤機組，中央政府都有意見，如果是這樣子的情況，我們火力排放的比例占得這麼高，人家說我們溫室氣體排放表現是差的，我們減排10%達不到，我覺得它不是完全無所本，這個真的是我們自己要好好思考的，我們的能源政策出了很大的問題，就是如果我們一昧的、根本做不到，但我們高喊非核家園，核能完全不用，坦白講，我們臺灣能用的就很有限嘛，再生能源的發展坦白講也很有限，我們地小人稠，所以我們不可能，我們不是美國，也不是中國大陸，我們沒有大量的土地面積，我們也沒有豐沛的水力資源，所以再生能源本身我們就會受到一定的限制，這是我們要從能源政策好好地去盤點。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:12:50.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:13:17.528000+08:00","text":"所以這件事情，我覺得與其挑戰人家國際17年的評比指標說有一些不公平，我們更需要做的其實是反省我們自己，我們真的減碳速度不夠快，雖然有改善，但是跟人家國際、很多國家比較起來，我們人均碳排真的就是高，這個是你2020年講過的，這也是事實，你當時講的這句話，我覺得很好，這是事實，務實的面對我覺得比較重要。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:13:18.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:13:55.386000+08:00","text":"所以我想部長你現在有權力，整個政府如何減碳，特別是我覺得我們真的沒有不用核能的條件，最近經濟部看起來好像有點醒了，核三想要再延役了，我覺得是好的方向，是晚了一點，但是我們就承認，在我們的天然能源結構條件不足的情況底下，如果要減碳，必須啟用部分的核能，我覺得這是沒有辦法迴避的議題，所以我希望這一題，部長你現在有權力，好好地把減碳工作做好，好不好？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"彭部長啓明","start":"2025-11-24T10:13:55.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:13:56.448000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2025-11-24T10:13:56.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2025-11-24T10:13:57.450000+08:00","text":"祝你早日康復。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2025-11-24T10:13:57.950000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2025-11-24T10:14:01.092857+08:00","text":"接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}